Welcome to part one of our conversation with Dr. Sally Adams Jones. We've grown used to amazing conversations on our Deep Transformation podcast, but this is very special. Let's dig in. It goes from strength to strength. Welcome to Deep Transformation. Self, Society, Spirit, life enhancing, paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists. With Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy join us in the evolutionary fast lane as we take a deep dive into transformational practice. Peak experience, profound understanding, powerful contribution.

I'm Roger Walsh and our co host is John Dupuis. And with us today is someone whose work has made an enormous difference to people suffering from poverty, multiple kinds of deprivation, refugees. This is Dr. Sally Adnam Jones. Sally was born and raised in South Africa, but got a PhD in Transformation through Art at the University of Victoria in Canada where she actually went back to Africa and worked with the poorest of the poor to attempt to provide healing throughout. And she has written this or edited this wonderful book, Art Making with Refugees and Survivors. Creative and Transformative Responses to Trauma After Natural Disasters, war and Other Crises. Sally's a student of integral studies. She is an expert or very familiar with developmental ideas. So she brings a lot of perspectives to our discussion today. Sally, so your biography is really striking. Perhaps you could tell us a little about how you came to this work.

Thank you, Roger. I feel very privileged to have been born and raised in Africa. I lived there for 30 years before immigrating to Canada. So it's very dear to my heart. It's a very complex country and because it has a lot of poverty and a lot of racial issues and a lot of gender inequality, every single kind of trauma exists there as an intersection. And one of the reasons I left is because I was so deeply moved by the situation and I felt very overwhelmed as a young person. I did not know how to begin to help. So my journey took me to other countries, including Canada. And what I find amazing is the people that are being brought in contact with the teachers were exactly the people that I needed to meet. And I've been a lifelong student of how to evolve our consciousness out of suffering. And that includes education, psychology, spirituality. So my travels brought me in contact with some, I would say world class teachers. I was then able to come up with some pioneering work when I integrated all this information and go back to Africa to try and apply that. I had to find human developmental maps like spiral dynamics. I had to find world leaders in therapeutic creative practice. I had to find spiritual teachers on how to live in the present moment and how to let go of our suffering. So I brought all these ideas together and came up with a model which was my PhD in how to help people in the most dire circumstances who had been dispossessed of just about everything. Their health because of the HIV pandemic, their land because of apartheid, their vote because of apartheid, and their voice and their economic abilities to produce the intersection of suffering is unimaginable. And now there's a lot of hotspots around the world with similar circumstances like Gaza, Ukraine. I felt my work had to be applicable in situations where there was no economic infrastructure because we have to start from the ground up with people where the. Where they are, with a technology that can apply in any situation. So my book on art making with refugees, it's bigger than just making pretty pictures. It's about how to access our creativity when we've been dispossessed and dislocated, when we feel like we've got no agency left. How do we resurrect ourselves? How do we start to build the world that we need, which has a domino effect in our self esteem, in our voice, and in our ability to imagine the next world that we need. Little did I know this is now becoming a global application as we face a poly crisis. This book that I wrote, I knew was ahead of its time and it was located specifically in Africa, specifically with a community of people suffering from HIV and poverty and discrimination. And now I realize that this is applicable across the world. We need this work more than ever. Not only with people who've suffered trauma, but for everybody. My work has now progressed to trying to motivate everybody to access their creativity and start building the world we need instead of sitting around talking about it.

Beautiful. And you have certainly worked with a lot of groups. So after you went back to Africa and did your. I call it therapeutic art because it feels like it's a deep, deep therapy you were offering. And I know there are technical terms, but what then? What. What were you led to after that?

Yeah, so the origins of the work is you can go to any hotspot, sit under a tree, use the materials at hand and build a community of people using their hands. And I really believe in our evolutionary development is a connection between the thumb and the brain. So you start using your hands as a way to access pre verbal pain. The verbal comes later. So when you've been through a massive disaster and our world is heading that way. So I feel like this work is going to be used more and more. You can't find the words to describe what you've been through. That's the main metrics of a deep trauma is you lose your words. In fact, there are no words to describe what you endured. So we have to start healing first of all, by building a safe circle of shared endeavor using hands. And this is gender specific. It's interesting. Men love to do that with work. They love to grow things or fix something or build something together. And women will love to cook something or create something with more feminine materials. And I'm talking about traditional communities. You have to be really respectful of gender. So they can sew a tapestry or peel vegetables. So you bring the community together, first of all, using their hands. There's no words. You can just sit and chat. And slowly belonging is created and safety through shared endeavor work. And I'm noticing this more and more that people find meaning in work and love. So you build the work, you build the community that that is meaning this. I. I really believe that we've lost contact when we start creating fancy narratives. That's a very sophisticated late stage. Meaning is built through work and love. And so once you've got the community harnessed in a shared endeavor, they can beautify their location somehow, whether it's a tapestry, whether it's a mosaic on a wall, whether it's a new concrete slab, whatever it is. And certain materials are traditionally gender appropriate. In communities like that have to be respectful. They feel pride. So that's a whole new level of transformation as well. Look at that. We did that. That is amazing. I can impact my environment. I actually have that agency, even though I thought I was stripped of all my agency. That's the beginning. That's one of the first steps, the second step. After you build work, you build community, you build pride. And then you build a belief in your own creativity to change your world. So it's a very embodied, very practical method that I've pioneered. And after that, you can start finding your voice. Because when you bring the community together, you start to articulate your experience, you find the linear connection of your shared story. That's when the voice is liberated. So in the work I've done, for example, with African women in villages that have suffered deeply, we built a project and it happened to be a tapestry. Each person did their own little square, and slowly they sewed all the squares together. That's a psychological expansion to believing we all in this together. Then you have a beautiful tapestry on the wall that you can look at. You've externalized your private interior into something beautiful that you can be proud of. And then you take that tapestry from village to village and the whole community goes, wow, that's my story, too. And we can start talking about the deepest shame, for example, of suffering from hiv. You find your story, you find your pride, you find you belong. You find beauty, and you find your voice. That's when you start being an activist and change your community, and it starts healing you. Right?

When you find that voice, when this creativity is coming through you, it's. It's sacred, it's special. I mean, I know what language you want to use, but there's something very special, and I wanted to ask you too, is how did you get into. How do these people open up their hearts and minds to you? You just walk in the village and say, hey, let's make a tapestry. How did. How did they become to trust you? Because it entails a lot of trust to do the kind of work that you've been doing in these poor communities.

Yeah, I've worked with several Indigenous communities in this way, including in Canada with carving totem poles, which. So you have to find the indigenous method, the preferred method of that gender. Wood is not for women. Wood is for men. Tools, traditionally, I'm not saying in other communities, we feel free to use any materials, but if you go into an indigenous community, you have to go in empty, literally. First of all, you have to get ethical permission to be there from the elders of the community, and you have to establish a relationship. You have to verify that you're not going to be there to exploit them in any way. So I spent the first month in this village just being with the community, doing what they do, which at that time was mostly attend funerals because a third of the village was dying from hiv. And now that PEPFAR is withdrawing its aid, they're going to be millions, millions of Africans dying from HIV anyway. So this work can only be more and more applicable. I spent the first month just being with the community, peeling vegetables, singing songs, because it's a very oral, vocal, chanting, rhythmical community, and finding out what their needs were and then applying my work to their specific needs. And in that community, there were people doing this work. There's a beautiful woman, Dr. Carol Hoffmeyer, who was there, a medical doctor, who valued art as a therapy. So she and I teamed up and we harnessed what was there. So while we were doing creative endeavor, she was able to do HIV education. So the voices started opening up. You begin to drop in educational, supportive, community issues. When you have hiv, the problem you. You're trying to overcome is shame. People are silenced. They can't own it. It's still very stigmatized. So once you build that trust, you can start to understand that you're in a shared situation. You start to speak about it, you start to get outside help, you start going for testing, you start getting antiretroviral drugs, and the community can start healing. It starts from the ground up. This work. It's applicable in any disaster, whether it's genocide, pandemic, tsunami, earthquake, refugee camps. And the book that I wrote drew on leaders in those various situations filled with trauma, already doing this work. Because there was no degree in this work. There's you. Only now can you go and get an art therapy degree. When I was starting this, there was no such thing. Art therapy degrees are brand new. But there were people in other parts of the world and I found them, I sought them out who were doing this work in refugee camps, specifically in Jordan and Syria and the Calais jungle in France, places where they had been drawn to this work. There was no degree you could get, but they were doing this work. And I collated chapters in the book that they could tell their stories of how they had also found this to be helpful. So this book is a brand new, pioneering endeavor to help fundraisers, to help project facilitators, to help public health officials, to help educators, to help therapists really understand that the basis of self esteem is agency, and that how you find agency is by finding your hands and your heart and your voice. That's the background. I don't go into communities and tell them any of this. We just start a project, we talk about it afterwards. It's too much academia in the beginning. But in retrospect, they can see their healing journey and its specific steps that you lead them through slowly.

And art and creativity is just a very deep, deep part of being a human being, isn't it? I mean, you go back to the earliest remains and artistry of our distant ancestors, even the Neanderthal. They made things with their hands, they drew on the. The walls of. They probably did a lot more stuff, but that's what survived. So I don't think there's probably ever been a isolated tribe or a group of human beings that didn't do art, didn't do creativity, didn't try to take their inner juice, their inner stuff, and put it out in a way that could be experienced by themselves and by others.

That's exactly right, John. And you put your finger on why I had to go further into this work, became fascinated with creativity. Then I asked Myself, the question you've asked, where did that go? We used to do this all the time as communities. 35,000 years ago, we were painting on caves. So now my work's expanded into what I call the phenomenology of creativity and without overwhelming people. That means you have to understand what happened in the pre modern era, because we were all creative in the pre modern era. What happened in the modern era, which was to start moving into our left brain and moving out of our right brain. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for that. I write about that. I don't want to bore people with that. But in other words, there's another way to look at that. We became yang and we forgot how to be yin, left and right brain in the body in this era. My suggestion is that we have to look at the personal and the collective oppression of our creativity, which is to discount the right brain, anything creative, and resurrect that into a polarity and use integrate our left and right brain again. That's the second part of my academic journey, is how to articulate creativity through an integration of our left and right brain. So I used to teach at the university and I've taught in indigenous communities and I've taught in classrooms and studios. And I found that there were several ways of thinking when students arrived. Some were divergent thinkers, in other words, give them one problem and there's a million answers. And some were convergent thinkers, which is give them all these data points and they'll try and make one answer. Ian McGilchrist's work, which I rely on as the medical basis for my theory, is that left brain thinkers are convergent and right brain thinkers are divergent. So when I'm faced with a classroom full of students, I have to, as I always do, try and find out what their needs are. And it became obvious to me eventually that this was gendered. I'd go, wow, look at this. This is so interesting. The men tend to be convergent and the women tend to be divergent. And this is not stereotypical. There's many women who are left brained and many men who are right brained. What happens in a classroom is that they are stereotyped, that the women are not supposed to be left brained and the men are not supposed to be right brained. In fact, they're ostracized. Men in my classrooms who were deeply aesthetic were taunted outside the classroom. They would come in there filled with shame, knowing I'm deeply aesthetic. I have all these talents, but it's not masculine. And women would come in there saying, I have a deep aesthetic, but I'm not supposed to have any agency and execute and manifest that creativity in the world that's masculine. So this arose naturally in my classrooms and I would have to begin to work with de genderizing creativity. What that actually meant is metabolizing in your other side of the brain. So we're conditioned as men to be very left brained, as women to be right brained. And so my task in any creative situation is how do we get out of that programming, how do we get women to be more left brained and balance that and how do we get men to be more right brained? And I know you, John, you're exploring that beautifully. And that means we have to overcome some stigma. I didn't want to genderize my classroom. It became evident to me my students were arriving with all this history, oh my goodness, I have to hide my femininity as a man, or oh my goodness, I have to hide my masculinity as a woman. That is destructive to creativity in general. That was my first step into this phenomenology of creativity. And now it's moved into integral daoism, which is to understand that the nature of emergence itself is to become aware of your polarity and integrate it. And the more you do that, the more creative you become.

Can you give an example of that, Sally, what that would look like?

Yeah. So given any creative project, most people show up either with an ability to imagine or intuit and they're weak on execution. Or somebody will show up with a very engineering understanding of the data, but they can't imagine or envision. I'm stereotyping, but these are the people that show up in my classrooms. My facilitation means we have to expand into the opposite. Please. Progress means engineers have to become more aesthetic and estheticians need to become more data and math driven. So math and art, let's just say, let's reduce it to that. How do we imagine and then execute? Because you can do all the imagining you want, but your project will fail with no execution. You, you can't manifest.

Right?

You can have all the structural agentic abilities you want, but with no vision and imagination. You're just going to reiterate the old. You need both masculine and feminine, left and right brain, whatever you want to call it, at whatever scale. We can use the archetype yin and yang, which is what I do because it takes it out of male and female.

Let me, let me add here, I'm A. You know, I'm a creative and also a musician, a guitar player, songwriter, singer, and you can. You know, you have to study for years to get the technique right on the guitar. Right. But if you don't have the inspiration, it's just. It's dead. It doesn't move you. It doesn't move anybody else. But it's some. And I still haven't figured it out quite, but at some point, the muse kicks in and you feel like there's something bigger than yourself that's taking over, and it just. You know, and it may take years of struggling to get there, but. But something. Something really happens. And I've also suffered with depression and. And the weight of the world and dark nights of the soul and this sort of stuff. It seems that at that point, the trauma, the darkness actually becomes fuel for the creative fire, and it gets transformed into something that can be beautiful and transformative and healing at the same time.

Yeah. So I'm listening to your language, John, and you've used the language of discipline and inspiration, the masculine and the feminine. So for any successful creative endeavor, we need both. We need to do the 10,000 hours, and then we need to surrender and get into the feminine, which is to actually move beyond the identity and allow the inspiration to emerge through the human body. It's stunning. We go into altered states. That is the mystical union of yin and yang in the human body. And it is creative. So at the lower chakras, masculine and feminine come together as procreative. At the higher levels of yin and Yang, masculine and feminine come together as creative. So it's a different scale of the same libidinal energy. So a lot of people just get stuck in the lower chakras. And I've noticed, like dating language, the Yin and the Yang in the dating pool is about how to. How to specialize in one way or the other, which is necessary for the third thing to be made the baby. At the higher levels of creativity. And then mysticism, the marriage becomes internal. Yin and Yang come together and make the third thing. And eventually man and God come together and make the emergent inspiration, the mystical union. So I look at these three scales of yin and Yang, procreativity, creativity, and actual oneness. With emergence, you become an instrument for the divine through yin and Yang. Yeah, so that's the integral Taoism. This work has just progressed from just.

And it feels very mysterious. And even when you experience it, you can't explain it. You know, it seemed like that song wanted to write itself. It was very easy you know, I went through all. I wrote a song about Ukraine. It's on YouTube if anybody wants to watch it. John Dupuy with the exclamation mark. And it's hard to write topical songs that just don't sound like propaganda or cheesy or something. So I really was feeling really, really. I had friends over there and I was just. The injustice of it all really hit me. So I just picked up my guitar and I got the chorus which is repeating Ukraine, Ukraine. You know, just all this admiration and sadness and. And all the feelings I have about Ukraine. And then, then the verses just came out. And then I ran into this. Well, a daughter of a friend of mine, she was 14 years old at the time, Ukrainian. And she put the videos to the song together. And the videos are just perfect. I mean, if you have half a heart, you can't see this without feeling emotion and tears come into your eyes and it's just like. And. And one time they asked Bob Dylan, how did you write all those songs way back when? And he says, I don't know, I have no idea. You know, it's just this thing that happens and it gets us out of ourselves and connects us with something beyond just our normal day to day ego, self and the realm of mystery, magic, spirituality, all of that combined.

So I love that, John, that the ultimate understanding then is about the mystery. It's. It's an embodied channel to the divine. And there are a second level of no words. So you start out with no words and you find the words to do the creative expression. And then the conclusion you come to, there's no words. There's a mystery here. And I'm going to facilitate that and practice that as much as possible. So that's my life journey, like you're saying there, John, is how to. How to articulate this for other people.

Beautiful. Really, really, really important work. Yes.

Yeah. How do we understand emergence, which is actually duality is yin and yang at the biggest frame? I won't go into that now, but if you want to discuss that at the human, that's the macro. If you want to look at the meso level, which is the human, it's the same cosmic principles. How does duality show up in the human body and its polarity? And it shows up at different scales. Mysticism, creativity and co. Creativity and procreativity. So that's the biosphere evolving into the neurosphere. And the physiosphere has those polarities too, with positive and negative and north and south poles and mag Anyway, yin and yang, I suggest, is a cosmic principle that is embodied at the physiospherical level, the biospherical level, and now the neurospherical level. So that's my job, is to track that and we call that creativity at the human level, but it's actually emergence working through the human body.

That's an intriguing reframe of creativity, emergence operating through the human.

That's brilliant. Yeah, I love that.

That's a new one which I'll have to have to think about. Is there more you'd like to say to help me and all those listening?

Yeah. So this is when I started dipping into process philosophy. So I find language there, the language of wholar kism, where everything we see is parts and wholes and there's a dance between them. And how do we make sense of that? So Kussler was the person who articulated emergence. And Alfred North Whitehead spoke about reality just being a relentless movement into novelty. That's all that life is. And I'm now taking that into polarity principles. How does that work? Because we actually embody that. We're not separate from principles of emergence. We're a fractal of that. So how do we potentiate through our body? And it's my suggestion that we do that through understanding polarity principles, including just in the classroom, understanding left and right hemisphere in the bedroom, it's. It's male and female. Wherever you go, there's a polarity principle that produces a third thing. So I have a long history in tantric thinking. I'm a yoga teacher. I have a master's in yoga education from the Hindu University of America as well. So it was understanding tantric principles, principles long before I started noticing in my classroom teaching creativity. These are tantric principles. It's left and right brain, it's understanding the gendered qualities that we can bring to the table of execution and receptivity. And eventually when we get to the mystical level, we have to do that internally. So at that point we become whole, hierarchical. The parts of us have come together into a new whole. So where are those parts in the body? That's where I track, attract the different scales. You know, it's polarity exists everywhere in the body, it exists in the genitalia, it exists in the chromosomes, it exists in the hormones, it exists. It exists in the breathing, it exists in the brain, it exists in the autonomic nervous system as parasympathetic and sympathetic. So without going into too much detail and overwhelming people, my book Integral Daoism, that's coming up this year looks at the four quadrants of Daoism in the human body. So in other words, it looks at the biology, the psychology, the cultural sociology and the politics and institutionalized education systems, blah, blah, of yin and yang. It shows up everywhere. And now all I can do is see it everywhere, of course, because I've been immersed in this for a year. So I look at yin and yang in the brain, I look at yin and Yang in the psychology, I look at yin and Yang in our stories from culture, and I look at yin and yang and our politics. And interestingly, it's incredibly relevant to our politics today. So let's move into left and right politics.

Before we do. Sally, can we. Can I just clarify how you're using the term polarity Sounds like you're using in a slightly different way. So maybe you could just explain how you're using the term polarities.

Yeah. So polarities would be a dance between contrasting parts. So it's an erotic energy between any contrasting poles. So that's polarity. So in the physiosphere, that's between negative and positive or poles of a magnet in the geosphere, its north and south pole, which creates summer and winter, which creates circadian rhythms in the human sleep and awakeness, which creates melatonin and serotonin. Every level of existence has polarity. I know I'm making a profound, outrageous statement, but I'll stand by it. And they're interlinked in this hilarchy that we call existence. They're dependent on each other in.

In the martial arts, we learned that there's. There's the hard techniques and then there's the blending techniques. And when it really becomes. The thing is when you bring those two things together and just spontaneously move through the heart and soft. And it's. It's a very mystical, profound experience when we are able to do that. And they've been doing this for thousands of years.

Yeah. Share a brief story then with your listeners about an initiation I received in China from a Taoist master. I can explain the people I've come across, but it's all meant to be for me to come to this book. So I went to visit my sister who was working in Beijing, and she said, come, let's go look in the park. You've never seen meditative practices like you see in a Chinese park. So we went down and sat in the green space, highly dense neighborhood of toll apartment buildings. And in China, it's beautiful. There's always a green space and the public Always come down from their units and they meditate in the park. I sat there speechless. There were all varieties of meditative practice, from huge paintbrushes painting water on the sidewalk that would evaporate as a meditation of impermanence. You create a picture, it evaporates to ballroom dancing between couples just practicing random strangers how to play with yin and yang. There were qigong masters, there were tai chi masters. There were people literally just swirling long colored ribbons in the air to see the interplay of movement that they could create. I. I fell in love with China in that moment. And that's why my book is called Integral Taoism and not Integral Tantra. So I was sitting, minding my own business on the bench in absolute awe, when a community of people right next to me, the leader who was doing a practice, called me. He. He turned around and pointed to me and said, you come here. And I said, no, there's a group of Chinese people around him, and he's demonstrating a martial art. And again he said, you come here. My sister pushed me forward and took my camera and my purse and pushed me. And I. I was the only blonde person in the whole of Beijing in that moment. And I, like, I'm a foreigner. I don't belong here. So he said, you come here. He made me stand on a pair of bricks, and he stood on another pair of bricks, and he said, get on the bricks. So I stood on the bricks, and he without. He spoke Mandarin, I spoke English. There was no communal language, but we understood. He said to me, the rules are contact between the wrist and the elbow only, and we're going to fight, and the only rule is you look me in the eye. So I'm standing on the bricks. We make forearm contact and we engage, and off we go. And his job is to push me off my brakes, and my job is to push him off his brakes. We engage, and he pushes me over, and I push him over. And we're doing this dance, and it's a polarity dance of every force has an opposite and equal force. Neither of us could get the other one off their bricks because we were completely integrated in our strength and our surrender. I have never received a lesson from a master quicker than in that 20 minutes of engagement with a Chinese master. With no language, common language, I got rooted in my body that my masculine and feminine have to come together. I have to surrender and I have to impact, and I have to be grounded, and I need to be elevated, I need to be aggressive and I need to be tender. Anyway, I won't go into it, but that moment was the birthing moment of my book Integral Taoism. It was a teaching with no language by a stranger, a man I've never met, who singled me out from across a park for this lesson. And now I write about it, and I've articulated what polarity is at every scale. And it's yin and yang working together to create the third thing.

That's a great story. One of the, the reasons. Well, I. We do a group together. It's called Integral Psychotherapy Group. And we get there and we share and it's all videoed and, you know, we talk about. Or somebody presents. You were talking, and it was, I don't know, a couple of months ago, or we were talking, the group was talking. And you mentioned that you were Canadian. You know, and that's right when Donald Trump had started trying to say that he would take Canada as a 51st state, you know, bullying, threatening, threatening military power, playing with tariffs as a way of blackmailing. Anyway, it hit me really hard because I do love my country and my country does bad things. I really feel it. We do good things. I really feel that, too. So it was just so out of the blue. I mean, you know, it's like Canada, you know, I mean, the. The meme about Canada, they're like us. They're just nicer. Right. And you've been there with us through wars and all this stuff, and for him to do that is just unconscionable. And I. It was really getting to you, too, at that moment. And I don't know how it is, but it wasn't just one of Trump's mental blurbs. I mean, he's doubled down on it, and he's still doing it. And just a couple of days ago, or a few days ago, King Charles came, you know, and Canada's a constitutional monarchy, like you were. We were talking about earlier how the. You have the traditional roots that plants you in. And he. He stood up for Canada as a separate individual entity. And what makes a country, the people make a country. It's not the borders. It's what people feel about themselves. Like, Putin said that Ukraine was not really a country. Well, they weren't. They sure are now. You know, they've come together. And Canada is, my understanding, has. I mean, he's. He's successfully divided America, and that's the way he's assumed power. But he, in my impression from looking from the outside in into Canada, he's united your country. So what is it? You know, what does it Feel like from your end, and you're. You're a psychotherapist and obviously a very intelligent, sensitive woman. What's going on with that?

Yeah, it's interesting, John, because our Prime Minister, Mr. Mark Carney, just this week said Canada's Athens and America is Rome, the Romans. So I've been thinking about that. I think it's a very interesting analogy he used because we're both pro democracy, so I've been toying with that. But it also fits into the yin and the yang. So I see this polarization, as opposed to polarity, between the right and the left. The right is, in my view, holding on to the past and seeing great value in tradition. And the left is trying to move into the forward and wanting to embrace change. So there's a emphasis on meritocracy, individualism, accountability, old structures, hard work. There's an atomization, as opposed to a collectivism on the left. So there's the parts and whole dance going on here, too, between what I would call the shadow of yin, which is hyper collectivism, the healthy social democracy, that can also move towards Marxism, and communism, which is hyper collectivity in other countries. In South Africa, for example, it's moving towards shadow feminine. And other countries where that when extreme, moves towards fascism, which is hyper masculine. So there's the nanny state versus and which is the left versus the right, which is about hyper individualism. It's modernism versus postmodernism, which is going to toxic extremes right now. So polarization, as opposed to a polarity dance that we need to come into play that both are valid, both have absolute value sets. And Canada is moving into the left, more liberal social democracy. And in our country, the conservatives are afraid we'll move into communism, Marxism. And in your country, you're moving more towards the patriarchal meritocracy, the anti dei. So with that said, we've got a yin and yang polarization. Trump looks at Canada and says, you are my worst nightmare. You're dei, South Africa's even more extreme dei. He's got that in his mind.

We should just say diversity, equity, inclusion. Probably everyone knows. But just so we make it clear.

So how do we bring these back into healthy balance?

Stay tuned to part two of our conversation where we get into the current situation with Trump in Canada and beyond with Sally's brilliant integral Taoist perspective. Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. We hope that. That you were moved, as we are moved, being part of it ourselves. We'd also like to say that this is being funded by Roger and myself. It comes out of our pockets. So if you would like to help us to. Mainly to get this podcast out to more people, because the bigger audience have, which is steadily growing, but the more people we can reach and the more marketing we can do, the more positive effect we can have on the world. So we've done that a couple of ways. But we'd like you to buy us a cup of coffee. Very simple. And I do that with podcasts that I support, and I find it's very satisfying. So thank you for your help, thank you for your presence, and thank you for all you are and all you do. We love you.

Sam.