[0:00:00] Natalie Jennings: Every single photographer that I've ever talked to has a different workflow. Every single one. There isn't like a right or wrong way. What I would say is, where do you feel most sticky and tripped up when you're going through stuff? Figure out for yourself the stuff that feels like smooth sailing and the stuff that doesn't, and just try different things. This is the Photo Business Help podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, Natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey. Today, we are taking another listener question all about how to stand out from the crowd with your client. We talk about other ways that you can grow your business by connecting with others and also what's worked for us the best with trial and error and all of the stuff that Audrey and I have done to grow our businesses. So this covers a lot of stuff, answers a listener question, and is packed with information to help you in the new year. If you would like to submit a question, send an email to helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com. You can title it Phototherapy or Phototherapy question.

[0:01:46] Natalie Jennings: Just so we know what it is and we'll get to it in an upcoming episode of the show. That's helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com. One more thing. You've heard me talk about Tarot. You may have even heard my live Tarot reading a few episodes ago. Tarot is an awesome tool for growth, for better decision making, for clarity, for looking at problems from a different perspective, all of the above. And most of you know that I incorporate it into my coaching. But if you'd like to test the waters with a 30 to 45 minutes reading one on one via Zoom with me, you can sign up by going to Photobusinesshelp Comterotarot and there's a calendar there. You can pick a date and time and sign up and we will do a reading together. So that's photobusinesshelp.com tarot if you want to explore a reading with me one on one and get a little more clarity and guidance around anything that you're struggling with. Before we dive in, here are a few words from the folks that support the show. Have you seen White Lotus?

[0:03:01] Audrey Nicole: I have not. I don't even know what it's about, but I know that it's a big thing because everybody's talking about it. And is it on HBO or Showtime?

[0:03:08] Natalie Jennings: It's on HBO. Yeah.

[0:03:10] Audrey Nicole: Okay, so I'd have to sign up to watch it.

[0:03:13] Natalie Jennings: It's so deeply character driven, like, deeply character driven. There's definitely a plot. You're kind of wondering what's going to happen.

[0:03:19] Audrey Nicole: That's so good. Okay.

[0:03:21] Natalie Jennings: It's so slow and it's so nuanced. And the acting is fantastic and it's very character driven and it's a blast. And the style there's two seasons. The style and the themes are the same in the sense of like you see these recurring themes and these recurring dynamics and these recurring even the settings. There's lots of water. It's very cool. It takes me back to my literature degree days where we'd, like, analyze stuff. There's a writer, Richard Yates. He wrote Revolutionary Road. They made that into a movie, same kind of thing, where he had this, like, nuanced ability to create a character that was so when you're watching it, in my opinion, when I watch it, I completely forget that I'm not watching real people. I mean that I'm not watching you.

[0:04:08] Audrey Nicole: Forget that you're watching actors and you feel like you're watching real people. Yes, that's the best. Because I have a hard time. I cannot feel like lately there's so many new shows on Netflix that pop up and I start it and within the first two minutes, if the acting is even slightly cheesy cheap, I can't even I'm done. So it's really important to me that the acting is, like, good and the characters are good.

[0:04:34] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, I think they're making a lot of stuff on Netflix now that is a little, like slightly below the bar because they have a lot of money and they're able to produce all these things and they're following novels kind of based on a novel by so and so. And that's fine because it has the plot there. There it is. Full circle from the beginning of this conversation. I think a lot of the new Netflix stuff is really plot driven rather than character driven.

[0:05:00] Audrey Nicole: Yeah, I just started watching Yellowstone.

[0:05:02] Natalie Jennings: Oh, my gosh, I've heard that. It's good.

[0:05:05] Audrey Nicole: And I think also it's the characters because you just get so in love with them. You think about them and they're like real people to you and you're invested in who they are and their story, and you feel things when it happens to them.

[0:05:20] Natalie Jennings: Where is it on? What's it on?

[0:05:22] Audrey Nicole: Peacock.

[0:05:23] Natalie Jennings: Okay.

[0:05:23] Audrey Nicole: But it's also on actual real TV. What do they call that these days? Cable? I don't know.

[0:05:29] Natalie Jennings: Regular television room.

[0:05:30] Audrey Nicole: Normal TV. But I was behind because it's already five seasons, so I'm the new season is out on real TV. So I'm catching up, but it's good. And then I just read a book over over Christmas. That very much same thing. I keep thinking about it and it's been a week since I finished it and it was the Nightingale.

[0:05:49] Natalie Jennings: OOH.

[0:05:50] Audrey Nicole: It's a World War Two story, Nazi.

[0:05:53] Natalie Jennings: Yeah. Yeah.

[0:05:55] Audrey Nicole: They're making it into a movie.

[0:05:56] Natalie Jennings: Amazing.

[0:05:57] Audrey Nicole: That was so good.

[0:05:58] Natalie Jennings: Awesome. So, yeah, I need to read some more. Just fun stuff. But that's another conversation I'll lend it to you. Okay, well, we have a question for Phototherapy today as a reminder, if you want to send us something, just send it to Helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com and just title it Phototherapy so anyone can send us a question. We look forward to hearing from you. Okay, I'm going to read this first part. This is someone that sent three questions in one, but we're only going to be able to get to one. So I'm going to read the first part. I'm listening to the podcast and some ideas came up for me, like brainstorming. I would love opinions and ideas for how to personalize your experience with clients. For example, I thought about getting clients a small gift at the end of the year just to thank them. I'm talking a rather small gift, nothing expensive where I would waste my profits on it, but just something as a little thank you to try and set myself apart. I've heard of people getting customized cookies made with their logo on it or a Christmas ornament with their logo on it, things like that. I mentioned to you when we were kind of reviewing this question that I haven't done gifts for people unless they've been wedding clients.

[0:07:08] Natalie Jennings: I used to just fire off like a dozen, three and a half by fives, like with a little white border, like just prints and tie them together with some ribbon and send them along so they could send obviously the photos are them on their wedding day so they could hang them on their fridge. And it was very low cost, but it was logistically a little tricky because I'd have to wait for them to arrive and order them and all that.

[0:07:35] Audrey Nicole: Yes. And then ship them out and all that. My first thought is just, why not you try it. You're already coming up with ideas on how to set yourself apart and why don't you just try a few things and see what feels good and works well. And if it ends up being like too much, then for next year I'm going to try something different.

[0:07:56] Natalie Jennings: Yes, I was kind of thinking of.

[0:07:58] Audrey Nicole: Doing something similar this year, but I didn't. And yeah, that's just like my first thought, just try it, see what happens.

[0:08:05] Natalie Jennings: I love that response because I kind of thought that too. You and I have tried so many things over the years and in addition to the photos, I've tried a bunch of different stuff with gifts for wedding clients and stuff. But yeah, do what feels good to you, what's most in line with what you like to do. If customized cookies sound really fun, like if you're really into food and you know your clients are really into food, do that. There's no wrong answer here. It's really just going to depend on how it works into your workflow and.

[0:08:37] Audrey Nicole: How it feels to you and what fits within budget. If that is something that you need to consider as well.

[0:08:44] Natalie Jennings: Totally.

[0:08:45] Audrey Nicole: And as far as, like, setting yourself apart to clients, that gesture does it's like, oh, fun, she sent us this thing. And that does stick in their mind. But the biggest way is obviously happening during the service that you're providing for them. The prep before the photo session, how the session goes, how you're helpful to them afterwards, your follow up, your follow through, professionalism, all that kind of stuff like that, that will set you apart tenfold, then an end of the year gift, because they're not really expecting that. But it's a fun little surprising thing to get to start the year off. Yeah, there's no right or wrong. Totally do it if it feels good, and if not, or you don't get to it, I don't think it'll hurt you in any way.

[0:09:34] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, I totally agree with you. Do you set yourself apart from the minute that someone inquires with you? It's in all the little things that add up to someone's vibe of your perception of you. And so I think you could have an awesome gift. Let's play with this a little bit. You could theoretically send them a $500 gift or a $50 gift or a $5 gift, and you're probably not going to move the needle in the setting yourself apart too far. It's really going to be an aggregation of everything they've experienced with you. Also, you're sending it to one couple that may or may not ever need or want photos again, so they might refer you if that could be an option. But I don't think the gift itself is what's going to be setting you apart, if that's what you're kind of looking for, like a creative way to be like, oh my gosh, this is how I set myself apart. You set yourself apart in a lot of ways throughout the whole process.

[0:10:31] Audrey Nicole: Yes, totally.

[0:10:32] Natalie Jennings: Hopefully that made sense. Nailed it. Well, and the other thing that I thought was interesting is idea number one is brainstorming. I would love opinions on ideas for how to personalize your experience with clients. So this idea of brainstorming, I would highly encourage you and Audrey and I, you and I started exactly that together. We found that we had similar vibes, similar style. We liked each other, we had worked with each other and met each other in real life, in photography world. And we were like, let's just chat with each other and see if we can help each other. I think that if you're listening and you are, I mean, we're happy to brainstorm on this show, of course, but find that for yourself as well. Find someone that is in a similar place to you in photography or seek them out on Facebook or whatever and just say, hey, do you want to jump on a call and see if we can meet once a month and come up with some ideas?

[0:11:30] Audrey Nicole: Yes, totally. We just made up what we were doing. We're like, let's just chat like every other week and talk shop and work through things together. And you can absolutely create that for yourself. Find a friend or post in a group and find someone who wants to monthly do a zoom call or something. And you guys just like, go over things you're working on. Bounce ideas off each other, vent about things.

[0:11:54] Natalie Jennings: Yeah.

[0:11:55] Audrey Nicole: Commit to like three months or something and then just see if you want to keep going. If it doesn't feel good, you can stop.

[0:12:01] Natalie Jennings: Yeah. I find it's been one of the most valuable things I've done in the past couple of years. We've gotten we've helped each other so much, we brought it into Clubhouse for a little while and that was fun. Brought more people in. So maybe going to Clubhouse is a place to start too, if you're like, where do I start? Whatever. But there's going to be someone out there that wants to talk shop with you and that's in a similar place in business because you and I are in such a similar place that we can genuinely help each other. Like, oh, what did you do for your mini session thing in pick time again? Can you show me that button? It literally gets so granular sometimes because we are on the same page and not with everything. But keep in mind you maybe want to start there as far as seeking out someone to chat with rather than someone that's in a totally different genre or point in their business.

[0:12:49] Audrey Nicole: That's a good point.

[0:12:50] Natalie Jennings: It might not be as helpful. I was noticing too, and we both look over these questions, but the other two parts to this question. One was about knowing your guys'workflow and to see if there's anything else that us people can implement that might be helpful. And the other idea would be a website audit where we would go over a website and give tips and stuff. And what's interesting is I think there's a couple of themes coming up here because we were just talking about like, try something with the gift and see how it goes. Workflow. Yes, we could go into great detail about our workflows, which we both do in our private coaching, but it doesn't translate super great to a podcast. Just like going ticking off all these things. But also it's so personal. Every single photographer that I've ever talked to has a different workflow every single one. There isn't like a right or wrong way. What I would say is where do you feel most sticky and tripped up when you're going through stuff? Is it like, oh, calling is just like hard for me and it feels hard, or oh, responding to emails just feels like it takes too much time. Figure out for yourself what feels kind of the stuff that feels like smooth sailing and the stuff that doesn't, and just try different things. It's really the same game the whole time.

[0:14:08] Natalie Jennings: It's just trying things that work for you. I mean, you and I just try stuff and then we share it and then if it doesn't work, we change it and if it does, we keep talking about it.

[0:14:20] Audrey Nicole: Yeah, 100%.

[0:14:22] Natalie Jennings: So I would say as far as workflow goes, I think only you know what feels kind of clunky and then from that space you might be able to even submit a more specific question like Mike Culling feels so clunky x, Y and Z. But to go over a whole workflow, we probably don't have time to do that. But it's also so specific to every photographer that that's something you might want to seek out a mentor or pay someone to do with you one on one. Because that's a long process.

[0:14:53] Audrey Nicole: Totally.

[0:14:54] Natalie Jennings: I don't know if you have anything to add about that, but I saw some themes in these questions and the one is like just trying things.

[0:15:00] Audrey Nicole: That's how I built my business. It's just simply trying things and doing one thing after the other. And I totally understand the feeling of like other people know better than I do and have better ways of doing things and if I just know their ways, then I'll hit my goals. But that never worked for me. So I just started trying things and not being afraid to not do it right. And I did it wrong a lot. And tweaking and adjusting and trying something different and then that's how you get to where you are trying to go. And seeking out mentors and stuff is important as well. Sometimes you just need somebody to help you put the pieces together or help you see the pieces the way you need to see them. Not so much them doing the work for you. It's always going to be you doing the work, but they're guiding you. I think trusting yourself and being okay to not do it right until you do get it right is like key.

[0:16:02] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, and I think too, like mentors, in my experience, if you're trying to figure out how to do something, like in this case, is there anything that I should implement in my workflow that might be helpful? I don't think a mentor can necessarily answer that for you without knowing where you feel stuck. What a mentor can definitely help you do is also build more confidence than just going out there and trying it and being yourself and building the brand around your own energy and your own vibe. I think you could solve some of this problem too by just asking in groups and stuff. I mean, Facebook is, I guess, the place that a lot of us go, but just I'm just using Culling as an example. But if there's, like, a sticky, clunky part of your workflow, try a couple of different other things that you see other people doing and see how it goes for you. And once you feel like you have, like, a fairly solid workflow, that might be a good time to seek out a mentor to really help push you to the next level.

[0:17:01] Audrey Nicole: Totally.

[0:17:01] Natalie Jennings: And as far as website audits and stuff, you and I both offer those in our one on one coaching, but it'd be kind of tricky to do it, I think, on a podcast. But that is something I've done in brainstorming groups in Mastermind. So, again, I would say if you can find another person or maybe three or four I've been in a four person photography mastermind before that we did for like, a year. And one of the topics was to audit each other's websites and just say, like, hey, as someone who doesn't follow your business closely, this is what I think might work for you. So all this to say, I think many of your answers are going to come from yourself and many of them are going to come from trying new things and then finally it is invaluable. I mean, it's so priceless to have a person like Audrey and I started like three years ago, meeting up a couple of times a month or a small group of people to just bounce ideas off of because someone might say, oh, I've tried that before, but it didn't really work for me. But if you like shooting newborns, then it might work for you. Everybody does it differently. Every single person does it differently. So there's no magic answer key. It's not like anybody has the answers. I don't know if that sounds dark, but I mean, really, that's kind of the truth. It's just like that's it, we're all just trying.

[0:18:25] Audrey Nicole: Yeah, totally.

[0:18:27] Natalie Jennings: Hopefully that's helpful. It could sound like it's like just trust yourself and find some people to talk to, but really without working deeply with someone, which is what I think one on one coaching is for. It's very hard to just sort of help on a really broad scale with something as big as a workflow or a website. Yeah, I'm trying to think there was a resource I came across that was a really good list. You could Google a list of things to have in a good website or something. Those aren't the right words, but I mean, those lists are super helpful because they'll be like clear subheadings and a menu. I've gone through those lists just on my own to sort of double check myself and make sure that I have stuff.

[0:19:14] Audrey Nicole: Something I heard once that is good to do for website is to ask somebody older to navigate it and see how easy it is. Like somebody that would be maybe in our parents age group or older who isn't as tech savvy or I've even in a Facebook group or Instagram stories, been like, does anybody have time or interest in going through my website and seeing if anything stands out to them? I'll ask my sister's mom this every time I update something, but then sometimes I'll ask other people and also returning the favor to do it for them as well. So you're not just asking someone to do something for you. It's kind of like a give and take. So you offer? Like, I'll look at your website, you look at mine. Yeah, that would be my best suggestion.

[0:20:04] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, I literally call one of the exercises in the greenhouse the baby boomer exercise because that's my parents generation. And I'm like, have them look at your website, see if they know, and give them three things to do. Can you figure out how to contact me? Can you figure out what I'm selling? Can you figure out make a list of stuff and have them do it? And I think you make a really great point. So if you're listening to this and budget is an issue, like, finding a mentor to help you really dig into all this stuff one on one is an issue. Like, crowdsourcing is the way to go, like Audrey said, like putting it in stories or asking in a Facebook group. But if you truly want that, like, deep one on one work with someone that's had, well, in my case, 13 years of experience or whatever, if you really want, like, mentors eyes on it, I think you just have to be prepared to pay for it. I mean, we're obviously giving a ton of free advice because we love doing this on the show, but there's stuff that I think crosses into. You're going to get more value if you feel like you really need a mentor on your side. And that's generally something I think people have to be prepared to pay for. But there's tons of ways you can get this feedback without the investment.

[0:21:16] Audrey Nicole: Yes, ma'am.

[0:21:18] Natalie Jennings: Yeah, I think we've covered that one, but yay, hopefully that was helpful. I always feel like I'm talking in circles, but hopefully there's a couple of good points in there. I don't know. And once again, if you want to send us a question about your business. So the last two questions we answered were pretty lengthy. I think we should just remind folks to try and be as concise with one question as possible, because otherwise for us, it's really hard to get to stuff. So we're trying to honor everybody's questions and get to everything but one question. Try and be as concise as you can and send it to Helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com and title it phototherapy and we will get to it.

[0:21:58] Audrey Nicole: Yeah, buddy.

[0:21:59] Natalie Jennings: Anything else?

[0:22:01] Audrey Nicole: No, I think we did it.

[0:22:02] Natalie Jennings: All right, I am hitting the button. Talk to you soon.

[0:22:07] Audrey Nicole: Bye bye.

[0:22:09] Natalie Jennings: A quick reminder that you can submit a question to us by sending an email to Helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com that's helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com and just title the email phototherapy or phototherapy question so we know what it is and we don't accidentally skip over it. And we will get to it in an update episode. Of the show. That's helpdesk@photobusinesshelp.com.