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This is Time Signatures with Jim Irvin, a podcast and radio program presented by the Capital Area Blues Society in Lansing, Michigan. Most any contemporary musical style can trace its roots back to the blues. Time Signatures explores the blues and its musical connections with captivating interviews, lively discussions and news from the world of the blues. And now, here he is, your host, Jim Irvin.

Well, thank you so much, Parker, and welcome to Time Signatures. I'm your host, Jim Irvin, and today's guest is a former member of the 2004 IBC winning Zach Harmon Band. This Baltimore county native now resides in the state of California. He has also been around the blues scene for quite a little while, to say the least. He has been a presenter at the annual International Blues Challenge held in Memphis, Tennessee. He has also been a performer at the Big Blues Bender in Las Vegas. And he's also performed on the legendary Rhythm and Blues Cruise and is open for the likes of George Thorogood, Johnny Winner, Buddy Guy and Dick Dale, among others. He's toured around the world and is doing things a little differently these days as a solo act, building an even bigger following. Dennis Jones, I want to welcome you to Time Signatures. And how are you, sir?

Jim, I'm great, man. Thanks for having me.

Well, it's a pleasure to have you. Now, according to your website, you began playing your guitar at the age of 13. How did that come about at 13?

Actually, it was Christmas Day. I wanted, I wanted a drum set and my parents, you know, we had a house, but it was, you know, I think for privacy. They couldn't, they, they just couldn't fan me having a big drum set. So they, they asked me what my second choice was, so I said guitar. So they got me a. They went to a place called like Two Guys or Tops. I don't know if anybody remembers that from the east coast, but they used to sell these little Japanese taico guitars, I think I pronounced it correctly, with a little plastic amp. So I got that for my. I think it was my 13th. 13th birthday. Yeah, I think it was, excuse me, 13th Christmas. That's another birthday is a whole nother. Another issue. But, but yeah, for Christmas. And, and, yeah, and that's when I just started tinkering around on it and, you know, for a few years. And I had an uncle who actually could play and he came over one day and tuned it up for me and showed me a few things and I got really excited. But, um, but that's how. Yeah, that's how it all started on Christmas Day when I was 13 years old.

Fantastic. At what point in your life did you determine that you would pursue music as your career?

I think I knew when I was 15 years old, 16, when I played in my first band. When I was 16, I knew that, you know, that's what I wanted to do. It took me a long time to get to that point. I've only been playing, you know, really full time for the last 13 years. But, you know, I had different jobs and stuff before, but I always managed to go out and play. I played. I spent time with the Busboys in early 2000 with Brian O' Neill and the Busboys. I spent time with Zach Harmon, Mid South Blues Review. And I had my own band and worked a full time job at the same time. I did all of that. How I look back and just go, how did. I have no idea how I did. But it's just a love for the music, for the craft and, and you know, I never. I still don't need much sleep, you know, five or six hours a night. I mean, I was kind of built for this stuff and I love touring. But. But yeah, man, that's, that's really, you know, where, where I am with this. It's just. I. Getting off the question a little bit, but I just, I just love it. I. I just love the craft and, and you know, can't. They can't think about doing anything else. I just, I wish, I mean, I kind of wish as I started touring earlier, but the situations never lent themselves to something that was going to be long term. I wanted something long term. And you know, the bands that I started in the late 90s and, and you know, even when I first got to la, I was just searching for this one thing, you know, I, I had all these singers and, and a lot of them had lsd and I know, you know what that is. Lead singer disease. And so I decided to take some vocal lessons and, you know, see if I could pull it off myself. And I been doing it ever since. I think 2003 was my first album, Falling up and I was still in the BusBoys and Brian O' Neill actually produced that album.

I want to flip the page just a little bit here and talk about 2004. You competed with the Zach Harmon Band at the International Blues Challenge and you won it all in 2004. You got to tell me what that experience was like. And was that your first time to compete in that challenge?

That was the first time to compete in that challenge. It was, it was amazing. We had Cora Coleman. I think that's Zach's goddaughter, and she ended up playing with Prince later on. I mean, we just had just a really. It reminds you of early Stax Records. You know, I just started watching that Stacks documentary, you know, where, you know, black and white musicians playing. It was all about the music. And we weren't even thinking about. Of course, we weren't thinking about color at all. Music is just music. And. But we just had a band that was really. It was tight. We were really tight. I went in and I was quite cocky back then. You know, I mellowed out a bit. But I went in knowing we were going to win, and everybody in the band was like, dennis, be quiet, man. You know, just don't say anything. And I was telling the other bands, I would. We would go hang out with some of the other bands and we'd start drinking and joking, and I'm a big jokester. I love having fun with people. And I was like, man, you guys might as well just pack it up, man, because we're going to take this, you know, just leave now. And they were like, oh, man, you would be a jerk. And I was like, no, man, I'm just having fun. I mean, really, it was a. It was a party from the time we got there till we left. And I don't mean with alcohol and drugs. I just met with the spirit of so many bands there. The music was in the air. You're in Memphis, like, the home of the blues, so. So, yeah, I felt very confident. And when we were get. When they were. The judges were, you know, judging the bands, and they were saying who was number three, number four, number two, And. And it was like, it. It was just. So when we won, I just exploded, I think I jumped on Jack, Zach Harmon's back, and he took me piggyback all the way up to the stage. It was really. I mean, really exciting. And I made some really good friends there from the guys from the other bands, from. From hanging out with the judges. And it was just a. I can remember it like it was yesterday. It was a really, really good experience. And, you know, and I think we deserved it. We were really a good band. You know, other. Other guys there were good. Other people, female, male, they were all good, but, you know, it's. It was great to. To win that. And Zach went on to. To win more awards and to become, you know, on his own, you know, without the Mid South Blues Review to come, you know, a great artist in this, in his own right. And, you know, I went on to do my thing. Cora went on to play with Prince and other people. So, you know, Doug Mug, the bass player, has played with everybody, lives in Nashville. I think he's still in Nashville. So it was. It was just really a great group of great people at the right time, right place, and went there and kicked some butt down in Memphis.

Awesome. You know, you've opened for some incredibly talented musicians, including George Thorogood, Tinsley Ellis, and, of course, a legendary Buddy guy. I have to ask you, as you stand off to the side, once you've done your opening act and you're watching these legendary performers do their thing, talk about how that feels, is there ever a moment where you. Where you have a pinch me moment when you're watching them perform?

I've been around this stuff for a long time. Even before I was opening for these. These. These great acts, I was going to shows. I'm the kind of musician that will support other musicians that come to town if I'm not playing. I know a lot of people don't think that's cool because it's like they're hanging out in the crowd, and I don't care. I just saw Mike Zito last. Last Sunday. So it's like, when I'm there, I. I kind of don't think about it until after it's over. I remember seeing, like, Johnny Winter, you know, when I was growing up and he was a hero. It was Johnny Winter and Alvin Lee at the Merriweather Post Pavilion in Baltimore. It's probably no longer there, but I was so. As a kid, I was so blown away that I didn't want to play. I got home and didn't want to play guitar anymore. I was like, I can never be that good. And my brother being my older brother, if anybody has older brothers, you know what I mean? He slapped me upside the head and said, shut up and practice and keep practicing. So I think I thank him for his abuse and his words, but. But no, I mean, yes, I. I have sat on the side of the stage and. And go, wow. You know, opening for Dick Dale was. You know, he was quite the character. If anybody's ever met Dick Dale, you know what I'm talking about? He was quite a character. So is Buddy, and. And I felt I got a little love after because nobody. They never heard me before. But after I play and they say, hey, good job. We like what you did. That. That means more than me and anything. Johnny Winner heard me doing my soundcheck, and, you know, he had just got off the stuff and he was on, like, some placebo and he, we just went in this trailer, sat down, and I was nervous for the first time. He was the only person I think I've ever been truly nervous around. And I was just like, you know, Johnny, amen. Thank you for everything. I love your music. And, you know, you know, still Alive and well is like, you know, one of my favorites. You know, I grew up that's, he's probably the reason I started playing blues rock. Johnny was just a big, and almost like Hendrix. He was just, it was incredible. I mean, trying to figure out what he was doing. But he, he said, hey, you know, was that dude you doing a sound check? I said, yeah. He goes, hey, you guys are good. So after that, and when Johnny Winter said I was good, it's like I didn't really care what anybody else had to say, you know, because I just, and it didn't like, go to my head in some, like, ego kind of way, but it just gave me more confidence to keep doing what I'm doing because, you know, he's highly, I, he was highly respected as a blues man and as a, just a person. And he had his troubles and stuff he went through in his career, but, you know, towards the end, I think he had, he had come back almost to, to the Johnny we used to know. And it was just a really amazing, amazing experience to, to, to be around that. And also, I didn't really get to talk to Buddy Guy as much, but, you know, because everybody's always on Buddy, so he's, it's just a bit much and, but no, and Tenzi Ellis was a gentleman. He really, he gave me a great compliment, too. He's like, you know, says you're, I, I, I don't want to follow you anymore. It's like something like that. So it was really a cool thing and we hung out and, and got to talk and got to know each other, so, so, yeah, man, it was, it was great. I enjoy that. I enjoy all those opening spots and all those lessons that I got from people and the conversations are, they mean as much as listening to the music, when you get to talk to those guys and have these conversations. Guitar Shorty was a really good friend of mine. We lost him last year, but he was, you know, we used to have lunch together and talk and, and just another great. That unfortunately, he didn't get the recognition he deserved. But Guitar Shorty to me is just, just as important as Buddy Guy, just as important as all those other guys that were out there doing it. And, and played stellar to, to the end. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of cool. That's how I feel about all that. You know, standing next to the stage was, was great for, for a lot of that and, and getting to meet these guys, it's, it's, it's incredible.

Well, you're watching and listening to Time Signatures. I'm your host, Jim Riven. Along with me today is Dennis Jones. Dennis, we are having a conversation about your history, about your, your transformation in the blues, the stuff that you're doing as a frontman. And I'm excited to, to hear about the future. I want to look back at your history for just a minute. It looks like you've hit some really big shows across the United States and you've also done some extensive touring outside the US Any favorite locations along the way for you?

I, I, I just love being in a different city every night playing for people that especially people have never heard the band before and get a chance to experience something different because, you know, there's lots of, I mean, the blues market is saturated with a lot of great bands and a lot of different styles of blues. And that's the thing I love about the blues. It's like, I mean, I play blues, rock with, with, with funk and, you know, I got songs that are country vibe, reggae vibe. I just love good songs. The heart of everything I write is from the blues. No doubt, no doubt of that. But I want this music to continue to grow and especially myself to continue to grow as a writer, performer. And there will never be another Howlin Wolf, another Muddy Waters, and you can chase that all you want. And some guys do, you can ch. Want, but. Or another Hendrix, you know, so it's great to have that on your sleeve, to have as an influence, but to want to be like them, it's just, I think, for me, it's not what I want. But speaking of great places to play, I've played across the US and played for some great crowds. When I go to Europe, I think Poland is one of my favorite places. The Polish people are very, very, they, they're like New Yorkers. They love you or they don't. They, they, we sell out every time we go there and I've made some friends there and they really, I mean, they're singing the lyrics of my songs and not everybody there knows English and, but they were really sincere. They're passionate about, that's the word. They're very passionate about their music and I think their life in general and I got to spend some time, you know, a day off there and, and hang out with some people there and go to their homes and that's the, that's the most fun part about touring. If you have a time to, to really get to know the people. I, I love to learn more about cultures. I'll even try my lazy English way of learning some of the language to, to, you know, because I think people will accept you more if you, if you just try. You know, the lazy and ugly American is never wanted anywhere. But when you respect the culture, respect the people, the environment, and they see I do immediately. I think that's why, that's why they, you know, take us in so well and accept us so. But you know, I love playing. Austria, Switzerland, Germany. I mean, I, I love, there's great crowds everywhere. You know, to me, one thing I noticed there in Europe, people have a little more, this is not putting down my beautiful people here in the United States, but they have a little more respect for when an artist is playing. They listen, they're not taking selfies, they're not, you know, trying to pick up girls and all that stuff. They, they do that during the break. They pay their money and they're going to hear the music and they're going to pay attention to you and they're going to tell you, oh, you sang the wrong verse on that. That, then it's like, damn it, I did sing the wrong verse on that one. So, you know, they're really paying attention and, and there's places like Nashville where they, you know, you better go and pay attention or they'll kick you out. So, you know, that said, you know, people are people, man. It's like you where, where people love you is where you want to be, you know, and where they don't, you know, you try harder or move on. So, you know, I, I just love it, man. I, I, I really enjoy meeting people and, and, and, and giving them a dose of what I do and hope they like it.

Dennis, your brand of the blues floats seamlessly between the classic blues and the more rock infused blues as you so desperate or just noticed a few or noted a few minutes ago. But this gets a lot of discussion among blues aficionados. How do your audiences respond to the less traditional blues? Are they accepting of it? You get any resistance? How do they treat you?

Well, I think most people, I've been playing blues rock since my first album. It's not like I jumped on some bandwagon or tried to, to follow a trend. I've Always been true to who I am as a songwriter and as an artist. So hopefully they know what they're about to see. And if they didn't like it, they shouldn't have paid the money for the ticket to come see me. But I, too, I do try my best, because a person in the crowd is always one person. Not always, but normally somebody in the crowd, you can tell that's not feeling it, doesn't like you for whatever reason. And I don't know why us musicians always try to win that person over and they always have to sit in the front for some reason. I don't know what the logic about that is, but so I try, I tried to win them over, and if I don't, then so be it. I, I pay my attention to the other 99 of the people that are there that enjoy it. And so, yeah, I felt that before. I felt people that were like, oh, can't wait to this guy's off the stage and, and then. But, you know, there's people that are there that pay their money and they want to be entertained. They want to hear me at my best. So I block that person out and just continue to, to just go through it, man, and not worry about it and, and really just try to put on a really good show every time. And, and, you know, I hit people with some cover songs that they might know to get them in, and then I hit them with five or six of my songs. I mean, I'm, my original music is why I played play this, this stuff. I couldn't. I played in cover bands before, but it's not my thing. I, I've quit several bands because they refuse to do original music. I'm all about, you know, being as original as I can. So, so yeah, I, I, I found some resistance, but I just, just roll right over it and go to the next gig and try not to think about it.

But.

Dennis, 2020 and 2021 were decidedly tough couple of years for all of us. But I'd like to know how you process this downtime. What did you do to keep yourself occupied and how did you, how did you handle the, the pandemic?

Like most of us, I ate and drank too much, and I, I was bummed the first couple months because things were really starting to change for the band. A lot of festivals were coming in. I had, I had shows with the Black Pumas. I had shows that were with, with Robert Craig. I had all kind of stuff coming up, and it just, boom. I'm not, you know, sitting here Playing my little violin because it happened to a lot of people. I'm not the only one. So I kind of regrouped. After about three months, I regrouped and started on a new record. I recorded an album in 2020, thought the pandemic would be over in a year. So I put it out and it did okay. But you know, I didn't really get the tour on it. I think I did go to, to Europe January 2000 and twenties. And when we got back, I think March is when all, everything went to, yeah, complete hell. But so, yeah, I really tried to just keep my head above water, write a bunch of songs, you know, meditate, learn more about myself, you know, and with all this crazy life's about and just continue because I knew things were going to get better. I just didn't know when. But yeah, it was a tough period. But hey man, it's. It's life, you know.

So I, we need to wrap up here, but I wanted to ask you where can our listeners and our viewers go to learn more about Dennis Jones? Maybe buy some CDs or vinyl, some merch or book you for a gig.

Just go to my website, DennisJonesCentral.com and everything's there, my tour schedule. You can download some stuff for free. You can buy the album physical T shirts, hats, anything you want right there on my website. It's right there. And before we go, I got to tell you about a really good experience I had.

Sure.

A few months ago when I was in Mystique island in the Caribbean, Joe Lewis Walker invited me and several other musicians there. There's a festival, they have two and a half weeks of musicians go there and, and play. And it's a charity. They, they, they make a lot of money for these kids in the, in the neighboring islands. And I happened to meet on the last day I met Mr. Mick Jagger. And he was just incredible. I have a few pictures of him on my website, actually, Dennis JonesCentral.com and he was just a really, just amazing, you know, and I wasn't nervous. I just got off stage and Joe was like, hey man, Mick Jagger's over there. Why don't you go say hi? I was like, cool. So I walk over, find him and take a couple pictures and it's like, I don't want to take much of your time, but you know, all the songs, man, the Stones to me are about songs and longevity and, you know, and after meeting Mick Jagger, it's like, Lord, it's like he's the biggest rock star in the world. It's like, where am I gonna go from here? It's like, you know, so I just wanted to let the listeners know and you know that I had an amazing experience there and I hope I get to go again. It was for a great charity and get a guy named Basil who does all this. Basil Charles. And yeah, that was, it was amazing. And I, I'm like, I'm just looking forward to the future, man. So what else beautiful is going to happen, you know, and just, you know, treat people well, hope they treat me well. I'm going out there with good intentions and to, to spread music, spread this blues music around the world.

Yes, sir. Well, Dennis Jones, I want to thank you very much for joining us today on Time Signatures. Our very best wishes to you and we genuinely look forward to seeing you perform locally sometime around here as well.

I'd love to. I'm working on adding new dates to my, my tour schedule almost every week now. And I'm, I'm from Baltimore originally, so I haven't been out there to tour in a few years. So when I cross the country, I definitely want to stop by. I hope I get to stop by where you are and we'll stay in touch and try to make that happen.

We will absolutely do that. I've got some, some friends that have venues here in the state of Michigan and we would definitely love to see you come through. That wraps up that wraps up this edition of Time Signatures with Jim Irvin. I'm especially thankful to you, the listener and the viewer and the supporter, for without you, none of this would be possible. Jim Irvin reminding you that keeping the blues alive is everyone's responsibility. But preserving the history of the blues, one story at a time, that's my mission until next time. So long.

This has been Time Signatures with Jim Irvin presented by the Capitol Capital Area Blues Society in Lansing, Michigan. For more information on CABS, visit capitalareablues.org you can find this episode and past episodes@lccconnect.org the Time Signature's theme song, Michigan Roads, is used by permission and was written by Root doctor featuring Freddie Cunningham.

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This is Bob Myers from the Historical Society of Michigan with a Michigan history moment. During World War I, Michigan sent 175,000 men into the United States Armed Forces. Of those, 5,000 died and 15,000 were wounded. Among the Michigan men fighting in the war to end all wars were Adowa from northern Michigan, the Great Lakes states. Native Americans had suffered countless injustices. They were not citizens, so they could not vote in national elections, hold federal government offices, or sue non natives in court. They had no protection under the Bill of Rights. So why did Odawa men fight under the United States flag? The Odawa had continued to seek legal enforcement of their treaty rights. In 1905, their leaders sued the federal government to secure money owed them from the 1855 Treaty of Detroit. The Adowa won the lawsuit. Young men may have believed military service and subsequent citizenship would help further their tribe's efforts in the courts. Some young men undoubtedly enlisted for practical reasons. Economic opportunities for the Adawa were scarce, and military service offered a guaranteed income for the young men and their families. The Adowa also had a strong warrior tradition. In the late 17th century, Adawa warriors traveled east to fight the Iroquois in New York. Today, the US Armed forces have more Native Americans per capita in their ranks than that of any other ethnic group in the United States. Whatever their reasons for enlisting, Michigan's Odawa served with distinction in World War I. Pontiac Williams Jr. A 23 year old Odawa from Hartford, Michigan, was decorated for valor at Chateau Thierry in July 1918. Williams, a private in the 32nd Division, volunteered for an almost suicidal mission to bring in a wounded runner who lay in front of American lines. Williams succeeded despite being shot in the face, and he earned the Distinguished Service Cross. There is only one higher medal for valor, the Medal of Honor. Not all Adowa warriors returned home. Alex Cagabatang, son of an Adowa chief and a lineal descendant of Chief Pontiac, fell in battle in France, as did his relative, Thomas Kegabatang. Ironically, Alex's hometown of Cross Village burned to the ground on the same day he died. His family, however, remained there waiting for him to return. Only later did they learn that he would never come back. Alex Kagabatang was the first Native American killed in World War I. This Michigan history moment was brought to you by MichiganHistoryMagazine.org sharing the voices of.

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LCC Connect, voices, vibes, Vision from Lansing Community College. This is LCC Connect and this is Land Stories with me, David. I'm David Sewick. Each episode explores a different topic, such as the people, business, neighborhoods, communities, buildings and other phenomena that make up the history of our college and our region. We tell stories and in doing so, we connect the past to the present. This episode of Land Stories, we'll pick up where the prior episode, prior chronological speaking left off. And that would be in a place called Defiance, Ohio. And don't run away from your listening device just yet. This still is Land Stories and we still talk about things related to the history of Michigan's capital region in and around Lansing. But we have to deviate sometimes to get a full picture of what we're talking about as it relates to the Lansing region. And this is one such episode, just like the past episode was, because we are actually talking about how a place called Meridian Township happened to get its name, the name Meridian and the name Township. Actually, because we are going to be talking about the establishment of the township system on this episode of Land Stories because we are talking about the Great Michigan Land Survey and the reason why Meridian Township in the Michigan Capital Region is called so. And that is because of a survey line that was laid down many years ago, about 200 years ago or so, actually, that formed one of two survey lines that the entire state of Michigan would eventually be surveyed from. And that process was the great land survey system that took place in Michigan and had a term tremendous impact on the settlement of the state. The same is true of all the other parts of the United States that were surveyed under a similar system. And that is why it is worthy, even beyond the inquiry into why Meridian Township, Michigan is named. So to explore this very important moment in Michigan's past last episode, we talked about some broad conceptual ideas here that led to the land that we now call the state of Michigan being surveyed. And to summarize, if you have not had an episode or a moment to go back and listen to that episode, what we discussed was that way back when, mid-1700s, the situation in North America was changing quite a bit. The French and the British went to war. And that war, which we remember as the French and Indian War, or the Seven Years War, it's called both, that resulted in the British acquiring lots of land, or at least claimant over a lot of land in the middle of North America, including the land we now call Michigan. By the end of the 1700s, the American Revolution had happened. And the American Revolution resulted in many things, including the land of Michigan becoming part of that new country called the United States of America. And so Michigan, then, is part of that new country. And there are many other lands that have been brought into the newly formed republic. The leaders of that newly formed republic determined they wanted to settle, and that meant having people move on to it. And the mindset that people were operating under at the time was not all that different than the mindset that people operate under nowadays when it comes to using land. And land at that time was looked at as something that you really could not survive without having. In other words, you nowadays can take a look at the economy here in a place called or a place like Michigan. And we can see there are a lot of ways that people can make a living. And very few people who live in Michigan right now actually make their living off the physical property that they own. Most people go to work in a job that is related eventually to the economic activity that takes place on large tracts of land. But it's indirectly related. We go back in time to 200 years ago, in the early 1800s, when people were setting their eyes on the land of Michigan to settle it. People did not think you could really make a living unless you had land to farm. It was an agrarian economy, by and large, at the time. And so when people wanted to set places to live, they had to have land. And so when Michigan becomes part of the United States, Congress immediately sets forth a directive to foster settlement into Michigan and settlement in all kinds of other areas. What we now know is the middle part of the United States, but at the time was actually called the Northwest. So by the time we get to the establishment of the Michigan Territory, which happens in 1805, actually the 11th of January of 1805 is when Congress created the Michigan Territory. That's when the legislation went into effect that established the Michigan Territory. And at that point in the early 1800s, Congress had already passed laws in the decades prior that made it easier for people to move on to the land, because those laws that were passed set forth the process by which that land could be surveyed and then eventually sold to settlers who would come into Michigan from areas mostly further east and south, in some places, way, way, way away, even on the other side of the ocean. And they would become the pioneering generation of Michigan. So that is a bit of a summary of what we discussed in the last episode. And that gets us to that point where it is time to survey the lands of Michigan. We Left off the last episode. Where we are right now, actually, and we are, believe it or not, at least in our minds, we should be. We are in Defiance, Ohio. Defiance, Ohio isn't in Michigan, of course. It's actually a few miles south of the Michigan Ohio border. But Defiance, Ohio is roughly a perfectly straight line south of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. And when the Michigan land survey started, surveyors had to establish a point where the land could be surveyed out with. And that point became the location of the starting point of Michigan's land survey. In order to determine where this point was, people at the time got maps out and they said, okay, we're going to have to draw two lines. One is going to go from the north to the south. The other is going to go from either the west to the east or the east to the west. And where those two points meet, we are going to create a grid from those two points. And when the Northwest territory was created out of all the lands that the United States acquired from Britain in the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley regions of North America as a result of the Revolutionary war, Congress created the Northwest Territory to determine what would happen with all those lands. And out of the Northwest Territory we get the means by which a territory would be organized and eventually admitted into the Union as a state. So out of that enacting legislation, the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 creates the Northwest Territory. And as had been the overarching design of that ordinance, eventually smaller territories that became states of their own are carved out of that territory. Ohio was the first such political unit to emerge from the Northwest Territory. And it was. Well, I almost said it was admitted into the Union as a state in 1805, but that state. Not exactly true. Yes, Ohio was admitted into the Union as a state. Well, Ohio became a state. You see, there's a little bit of a dispute over whether or not Ohio was ever actually admitted into the union as a state in early 1800s, because nobody could actually find enacting legislation that Congress passed that declared and determined the territory of Ohio to be a state. This is something the Congress had done with other territories that are admitted into the union as a state, including Michigan, by the way, which was admitted into the Union in 1837, and Andrew Jackson was the president United States, when that happened. So that little side note of history aside, by the way, people do not nowadays accuse Ohio of not being a proper state. But just to make sure, in the 20th century, Congress did formally admit Ohio into the Union as more of a ceremonial gesture than anything. And hey, if this was an episode of Columbus Stories, and we were talking all about the history of Ohio and the capital city of Ohio, which is Columbus. We would talk more about that, but guess what? It's not. We had to dip our toes down into the territory of Ohio for a few moments because we have to get to Defiance, Ohio. But beyond that, we're not going to talk about Ohio much. We do need to know, though, the establishment of the Ohio Territory and eventually the carving of the state of Ohio out of that Northwest Territory is the process that we want to focus on, because that's the process that all of the territories and states that emerge from the Northwest Territory would, could also follow. So the great land survey system that became known as the Bostrophedonical. Say that a few times. Bostrophedonico. Bostrophedonico. The bostrophodontical section number system. And by the way, that word is spelled B O U, S T, R, O, P H E, D O, N, I, C, A, L. And yes, I, I did look at that written down on a piece of paper before I recited that spelling to you. But the Bostro fideonico section numbering system is the public land survey system and the system of local government that emerges from this great survey that we've been talking about on this episode of Land Stories and the prior one, chronological, in the order that the episodes have been released. And what this section number system did is it determined that the way all the lands would be surveyed out of the territory of the Northwest would be to establish grids, and from there survey the entire area in square mile units with the intent that several square mile units would be gathered to form townships. And that township system would be the basis by which all units of local government, or at least most of them, would eventually be established in the territories out of the Northwest that eventually became states. So in Ohio, in Indiana, in Illinois, in Michigan, and in Wisconsin, those are the territories that became states out of the Northwest. And all of those territories eventually follow the same survey system that started in Ohio. That's the Bostro fideonico section number system that happens to do with both surveying and governance. So let's take a quick step back and look at those two terms, survey and governance, and see how they relate to all the land in Michigan being divided up so people could buy it and settle onto it. And as we do so, the word meridian is going to enter into this picture, actually, as are some of the other general concepts and their very specific applications historically to people settling into Michigan. So first survey to survey land is to literally determine what exists on it, where it exists, and how big it is. So land surveying has been around probably as long as people have built things. One can study ancient structures around the world and learn a bit about how they were constructed by studying them and determined that most buildings, when they're built, well, there was a site survey that was done because people need to figure out where the building they're going to build goes. When you look at surveying a very large area of land, conceptually, it's sort of the same thing going on. People are looking at a large area of land, and they're trying to get a sense of what that land looks like because they want to do something with it. In the early 1800s, when Michigan's land was being surveyed, that thing that most people wanted to do with it, keep in mind, was either farming or taking the stuff that was already on the land off of it because it could be used for something. So in Michigan, that stuff that was on the land was trees. And some of the earliest activity that took place in Michigan related to land surveying was actually for people looking for lumber. But more than that, much more than that, the land survey in Michigan was done with the intent that people would eventually move on to land and farm it. And the whole concept of homesteading and of people setting up for themselves a farm that could be both an independently run family business and also something that would support the family. This is a concept that really starts at this time period. It's a very important part of the entire founding ideology of the middle part of the United States that would certainly include Michigan. I mention it here because that second aspect that we want to consider beyond surveying is the governance aspect. And this is where the township system comes into play here. And we're back to the braustow fodonical section numbering system, because once land surveyors started their grid, they then, as I mentioned a few moments ago, surveyed all the land in a cardinal directions that emanate from that cross point that the survey started in square mile increments. Those square mile increments would be grouped into groups of six, and that would form the local government unit that really the entire middle part of the United States would eventually be organized around. And it's the unit of the township. So in Michigan and in most other territories and states that came out of the northwest territory, the bostro fodonical section numbering system looks like this. It was six miles square, and it still is, by the way, which means most townships are six miles from north to south and six miles from east to west. Those mile increments were determined during the land survey of the Brostow fodonical section numbering system that starts in the eastern part of Ohio in the very late 1700s and eventually moves westward as settlers and interests move westward as well. So in Michigan, then, the great land survey really doesn't start until after the War of 1812. The War of 1812 was the reason for this. So with the Bostro fodonical section numbering system established and the great land Survey, the middle part of the country underway, Ohio is surveyed, and then The War of 1812 breaks out. This delays further movement into the middle part of the country. But War of 1812 ends. Congress before the 1812, as I mentioned towards the beginning of our episode, had already created the Michigan territory. And so once the War of 1812 ends, there is a renewed interest in settling into those parts of the country, including Michigan. They've been impacted by the.

The war.

So in 1815, finally, the survey of Michigan starts. And from Defiance, Ohio, is where the land surveyors embarked on their great journey, their great effort to survey Michigan. As I mentioned towards the beginning of the episode, Defiance, Ohio is important because the land survey had to be done both conceptually and in a very real sense. In other words, a map. If you look at a map, a map is a concept, it's an idea, it's representing something that is very real. So when you look at a map, you're not actually looking at the area of land that the map depicts, but the map is very important for you to be able to determine where you are going on the area of land that the map depicts. So it turns into a question of process. If somebody wants to survey an area, they have to establish a survey grid. How is that survey grid going to be established? Well, one needs a map to establish a survey grid. And there were maps that existed of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley regions of North America. When this great land survey commenced, those maps weren't super accurate. The land surveyors would make them accurate because they eventually were to walk and physically be on all the land that they surveyed. So using, albeit inaccurate, maps, Nonetheless, using maps is actually how the land surveyors would start. The maps they had gave them a general idea of where they were. And from that point on, they had to determine where their survey was going to start in Michigan. Sault Ste. Marie was a town that already existed before the War of 1812. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, and what we now know as Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, were One town, the border between what is now the United States and Canada was very difficult to determine until good land surveys had been completed. Completed. And they certainly had not been completed yet in the early part of the 1800s or even into the later 1700s as well. And so that's why determining even where the American and British Canadian border was in the early decades of the country's existence was a far more difficult process than one might imagine. And for that reason, where people lived, they sometimes weren't necessarily concerned with what the political developments hundreds of miles away had determined a boundary might exist where it hadn't before. That is really what happened with Sault Ste. Marie. Sault Ste. Marie was settled way back in the 1600s by the French. It's actually one of the oldest towns anywhere in the United States that has a European or Euro American establishment origin to it. And Sault Ste. Marie was one town on both sides of the St. Mary's river until after the War of 1812. The War of 1812 was fought, amongst other things, over a dispute between the American and British Canadian border. So after The War of 1812 ended, one of the things that the sides who fought that would be the British and the Americans determined they needed to do to keep the peace was determine where the border was located. And when that determination happened, the St. Mary's river became the agreed upon point where the American and Canadian border would exist at the end of Lake superior. So the St. Mary's river, by the way, is what flows out of Lake Superior and it connects Lake Superior to Lake Huron. That is where Sault Ste. Marie was located. The St. Mary's river, therefore, became the border between the United States and Canada. And it still is. There's a bridge that connects Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, and Sioux St. Marie, Ontario. However, that bridge was not completed until 1959. And from the end of the War of 1812 until the middle part of the 20th century, the division of those two communities from the political division after the war. 1812 was a very physical division because there was no bridge connecting the two of them. But now there is. So with that little bit of diversion established, we know that Sioux Saint Marie existed. And so Sault Ste. Marie was one town that people knew where it existed. And that more than anything, is why it was chosen as the northern terminus point for the survey line that would become known as the Meridian Line. So if one gets a map out and draws a line straight south from Sault Ste. Marie, it eventually ends up in Defense Defiance, Ohio. And that therefore, is why the Land survey of Michigan started from there, because that is how they established the Michigan Meridian. It is a line that goes from Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan to Defiance, Ohio. So when the Great Michigan survey started, a server by the name of Benjamin Ho was hired to do the initial work of determining where that meridian line would meet a baseline, which was the horizontal line that would be drawn on a map surveyed in a very physical sense, by walking it on the ground. And then from that point on, that meridian and baseline juncture is where the survey was to take place. And that is kind of what happened. But there is an interesting twist to the story here. So nowadays one can drive down Meridian Road in Ingham County, Michigan, and for some of the stretch of that road, one is driving right along that original Michigan Meridian survey line. That is, after all, why that road is called Meridian Road. And it's why Meridian Township is named Meridian Township. And tangentially, that's why the Meridian Mall is called the Meridian Mall. Anything you see with the word meridian on it or here with the word meridian on it in the Michigan Capital Region is because of the Meridian Survey line. So once that meridian line is established, the baseline comes into existence through the process I just described. And one would think, hey, this is great. We've got a nice precise point. A a as in one point. I emphasized that for a reason, because one would think that was the case, but actually it wasn't. Here's why. When Benjamin Ho walked the land and made his initial marks, he did not make his marks very accurately. And at the same time, he got interrupted because he had to do another job. And so he was pulled off the project and did not complete his mapping of where that initial baseline would take place. So another land survey by the name of Fletcher took over. When he attempted to find Hull's line, he found it, but for reasons we are still not able to determine, he made inaccurate measurements. And he actually ended up demarcating a baseline that was several hundred feet. It was about 800ft south of Ho's line. Later on, another land surveyor was brought in to try to correct this discrepancy. His name is Joseph Wampler. And what Wampler ended up doing was he determined where the whole line was. He determined where the Fletcher line was located. And he said, okay, these lines are a few hundred feet away from one another. What we'll do is we will survey from both points. And so Michigan's land survey was exactly done by that. It was surveyed from two different points that are slightly off from one another, which really is quite remarkable to think about. And all these years later you yourself can actually see what this physically looks like because the state of Michigan has marked on the land. Well, it's very much the border of Jackson and Ingham County. There's a few acres of land that the state acquired through the years that was on private property that surround where these original land survey marks were laid down at the points at which the base and meridian lines meet. That area of land again, the state of Michigan acquired enough land around it you if few years ago that they were able to establish a state park there and it is called the Meridian Baseline Survey Point Park. Sometime go there and check it out and in doing so you will be at really the point at which Michigan in many ways began. Last thing I'll say about this is if you own property, sometime take out your property deed, look at the survey marks that are on that property deed. Whether you realize or not, all of those survey marks make reference back to original lines that were drawn on maps 200 years ago that are all part of that bostrophedonical survey system. So this episode of Land Stories will not end in Defiance, Ohio, even though that's where it began, it'll end in Lansing. You've been listening to Lance Stories with me, David Siewic. For more information on this program and to stream past episodes, visit lccconnect.org LCC Connect is the official home of the Voices, Vibes and Vision of Lansing Community College. Offering hours of original and exciting programming hosted by faculty, staff and community members, LCC Connect explores our college's work in the community, important topics in higher education, and our vision for the future. Catch the vibe on 89.7 FM or online@lccconnect.org until next time. Remember, keep telling good stories.

This has been a presentation of LCC Connect, a weekly program that features the Voices, Vibes and vision of Lansing Community College. All shows featured on LCC Connect are recorded at the WLNZ studio located on LCC's downtown campus. Each program is podcast based and can be heard anytime@lccconnect.org if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on one of our shows, connect with us by emailing LCC ConnectCC.edu.