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Jacob Shapiro: Hello listeners,
welcome to Geopolitical Cousins.

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This is our postmortem of the
Trade Value Leaders column piece,

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whatever you want to call it.

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Uh, Marco and I said we were gonna
do an hour and a half and we ended up

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doing two plus hours, so enjoy yourself.

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Um, we, we saved the conversation
for why Trump is not on either

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of our lists towards the end.

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Uh, I'm sure that will cause lots
of controversy, but whatever.

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We love your hate mail and
we love to hear from you.

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Uh, jacob@jacobshari.com,
marco@geopoliticalalpha.com.

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You can send us feedback there.

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Um, otherwise we're having fun.

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We're hope you're having fun.

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We're hoping that if you like this
podcast, you will share it with your

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friends and your cousins and your
neighbors and everybody else, and leave

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reviews on the podcast, if you will.

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That is also super helpful.

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So take care of the people that you love.

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We'll see you out there.

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Take us away, Marco.

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Marko Papic: Alright, well, super.

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Um, this is the part two of our top 30
leaders in the world, the trade value.

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Uh, just as a little reminder for all
those of you who missed the first one.

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So what we're trying to do here is we're
effectively trying to, uh, create a list

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of, um, policy makers, politicians in
the world if you were able to trade them.

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So the, the person that ends up
being top on our list, uh, is

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technically untraded tradable.

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Whereas somebody who ends up
30th on the list, you would trade

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for the 29 in front of them.

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Um, now there are over 190
countries in the world.

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So if you are the last on the list, it
doesn't mean you're a terrible leader.

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It just, it means you're better
than all of those who we did

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not put on our, uh, list.

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Also, uh, an important point
here is that we're assuming that

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there are some qualities that
are universal to leadership.

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So, uh, just as a reminder, if you
didn't follow our part one, uh, it means

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that we're basically saying that, uh,
it know these are policy makers who

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overcome the constraints they face.

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That's what we like.

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We like those who make
something out of nothing.

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And unfortunately, yes, that's
going to, uh, favor, you know,

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leaders of smaller countries.

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So in the, in part one, Jacob and
I both submitted our, uh, top 30.

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Obviously there was a ton of overlap
there, but there were 14 leaders,

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14 across the two of us that were
either on one or the other's list.

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And so those were
obviously penalized a lot.

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So even if you were in Jacob's top
10, but you were not in my top 30,

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you effectively got ejected from
the top 30 list, more or less.

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It's, it's very difficult to, to
be, uh, near the top at that level.

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So, um, we ended up with 44.

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So, uh, I'm, I'm gonna
start off from the bottom.

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Jacob, you just interrupt me at any point.

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If you want, we can post
the list somewhere as well.

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Um, yeah, we'll, we will.

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Yes, for sure.

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So the 44th is Abby Ahmed from Ethiopia.

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Uh, that was Jacob's pick.

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Very, uh, you went deep
in your back for that one.

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That was a, that was a good pick.

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Uh, 43rd was Donald Tusk
from Poland, by, by me.

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Lots of, uh, pro Polish
propaganda out there.

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You know, the Economist had
Poland on the, on the cover.

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Tusk managed to squirrel
his way to our, uh, top 44.

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Uh, one thing I will say about
Donald Tusk, he may be a better

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EU commissioner, the leader of
Poland, but let's leave that aside.

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Um, Slovenia's Robert Goup was 42nd.

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That was me going deep into my bag.

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I felt like some Balkan representation
from former Yugoslavia was needed.

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Uh, it's more about what Goup has done
in disrupting the politics of Slovenia,

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you know, coming out of nowhere.

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And it's also just because I'm a
huge Laker fan, and Luca Doche is

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my Jesus Christ Lord and Savior.

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So, uh, 41st o Christen, uh, lots of
hate mail from, uh, Scandinavia, by the

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way, for both the 40 41st and the 39th.

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39th pick was met f Fredrickson.

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So data leaders.

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Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm
surprised that one was controversial.

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Maybe I, maybe I'm just off
here, but I think she's great.

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Anyway.

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Marko Papic: Well, well, what I would
say is like, one of the consistent things

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that came out of this exercise is that
if you are in the west, if you're a, if

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you are listening to us from the western
world, which most of our, uh, listeners

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are invariably you hate your leader.

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I mean, that is what we have learned from
doing this exercise because the amount of

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hate mail we got for doing this exercise
where our listeners are like, man, I

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love the MBS aspect, like you nailed
MBS, but let me tell you about my prime

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minister of my perfectly run country.

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They are complete and utter morons.

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So, uh, we got more hate mail for the
41st and the 39th pick than anyone else.

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Also, um, there was some constructive,
uh, uh, feedback about the Nordics,

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uh, which I thought was really good.

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And I think my, maybe we
did, uh, drop the ball.

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President of Finland, uh,
Stubb came up couple of times.

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Hey, God bless you for that
difficult place to run.

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Uh, both because politics, uh, in Finland
have been in a state of transition just

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like they have been in neighboring Sweden.

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So lots of new parties coming up, the
true fins rising, falling, uh, you

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know, transition away from a immature
populist party towards a kind of a

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center right, you know, leadership party.

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So that was interesting.

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But also obviously the
elephant in the room.

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Largest, uh, land border of any NATO
country with Russia now joining nato.

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So maybe we did, um, ignore
Finland here and, uh, well, I, I

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Jacob Shapiro: just wanna say, I just
wanna say I seriously considered Finland.

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I just didn't include Finland
because I'm still mourning the loss

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of Sauna Marin, who, I'm not saying
she was a great geopolitical leader.

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I'm sure we'll get more
hate mail if I said that.

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Just like, uh, this is
politically incorrect.

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Had a crush on her.

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She's, she's awesome.

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Like, I couldn't, couldn't
make the transition.

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Sorry.

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Marko Papic: Jacob had a crush
on the leader of Finland.

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That's fair.

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Uh, and that she left and UB
just didn't do it for you, you

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know, so like, there you go.

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Uh, but yeah, so, uh, I do
feel like that was, that,

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Jacob Shapiro: that, by that by
the way, folks, that's the level of

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analysis that we're giving you here.

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I just want you to understand.

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Marko Papic: Sorry.

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Well, I mean, you know, if Mario
Draggy was still around, I would've

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picked him just because I have
a man crush on him, as I said.

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So yes, uh, that is,
that is perfectly fine.

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It's our list, Jacob.

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We own it.

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We do whatever we want with it.

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Um, Egypt, Egypt's, uh, l ccc,
uh, 40th, the Jacobs Pick.

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Kind of jealous of that.

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Well done.

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Then Provo, Subianto, Indonesia 38th also.

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Jacobs Pick, A lot of these
are very individualistic.

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The two of us did not
necessarily agree on these.

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Uh, but that's fine.

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We didn't, I'm sorry.

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I mean, we actually
agree on most of these.

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We just didn't, uh, have
them on our combined list.

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37th, Christopher Luxon from New Zealand.

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Uh, 30, uh, sorry, that was
37, 30 sixth Anwar Ibrahim from

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Malaysia, New Zealand was your pick.

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Malaysia was mine.

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35th.

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Okay.

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So you got a lot of hate
mail for this Jacob.

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And I'm gonna let you
take all this hate mail.

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Uh, I'm not gonna share this with you.

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You did pick Ki Starr.

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Jacob Shapiro: I did, did

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Marko Papic: I think it's defensible,

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but I didn't want to pick him.

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And uh, yeah, there, there was
a lot of, again, woe is me.

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I live in an O-E-C-D-G 20, uh,
you know, first world country.

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And my leaders are terrible, but oh boy,
do I look that love that Victor Orban.

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So that's one of those
where we got some hit mail.

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Another, uh, I

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Jacob Shapiro: I also just wanna
say about Kiir, like remember that

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this list is like you would trade
for the people in front of you.

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So he was number 22 on my list.

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So I'm saying that anybody below
him would wanna trade for him.

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So there's still 21 leaders out
there that I'd, that I'm saying,

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um, are not better than Ki Starer.

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And also just like, think of the
incompetence that he inherited from

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Liz Trust and you and everything else.

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And things are not
like, completely broken.

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Like, not to mention
Brexit and everything else.

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Like he's, he is uninspiring,
he's relatively boring.

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He's perfectly competent.

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Like he, he's a boring, competent
leader of a very fractious democracy.

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Like that gets him, that
gets him points in my book.

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That's all.

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It's, I'm not saying that he's the
greatest thing since sliced bread.

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He is not.

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Marko Papic: And listen, I, I'm
letting you take this hit meal.

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I am, I'm not gonna share with you.

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But I agree with you because he
did inherit a terrible situation.

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Um, he hasn't made it worse.

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And quite frankly, I put Matt Frederickson
almost exclusively because of her handling

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of effectively American, uh, aggression.

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You know, like the United States
of America is the threatening

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to seize Greenland from Denmark.

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She handled that well.

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I mean, Keith Star, uh, ki Starmer
just purely for handling the

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trade negotiations with the US,
I think should get some props.

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I mean, he handled it, I think,
better than most countries.

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Obviously.

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He got the trade deal first, and
so he got out of that wave, uh,

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very, very quickly, which was very,
you know, tricky for a labor prime

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minister of the United Kingdom.

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Mm-hmm.

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I mean, he is ideologically
opposed, uh, like ideologically.

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He and Donald Trump are
obviously not on the same plane.

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So I thought that was a a, you know, I
think, I think it's not a crazy pick.

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The next one.

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I do think you were
completely out to lunch.

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Um, maybe you also have a crush
on Lula the Silva, but, uh,

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you did pick him very high.

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Um, I thought that was looking backwards.

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Now forward he is 34th.

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We got I think, a little bit,
a little bit of hate mail.

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I got some texts about it.

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Um, one of my friends, uh, who's
in finance basically said next

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to the dictionary definition of
corruption is Lula's picture.

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So, you know, 34th.

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Um.

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Jacob Shapiro: I think
that, that, that's fine.

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But literally, show me a leader
on here who is not corrupt.

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And I'll show you a chipmunk
that speaks Swahili.

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I mean, really, you, you're telling
me that politicians and leaders

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are not corrupt to get to the top.

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Like that's not a meaning.

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I, I think the pushback that his
best days are behind him, that he

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doesn't actually control congress.

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That he's actually, he's using 2008
policies for a very different multiple

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environment and there's no successor.

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Like there's lots of different ways I
think you could go at the Lula pick.

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I'll tell you though, one of the things
that, I didn't mention this when we

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talked about it, um, I actually used
to shit on Lula a lot more and hung out

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with a couple of Brazilians and, you
know, you're, you're gonna know who the

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Brazilians are or what their ideology is
based on whether they like Lula or not.

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But, but, but was sort of slapped
on the hand being like, uh, Lula,

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like change things in Brazil.

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No matter what you think of him.

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He's a formidable politician
with an idea of Brazil's future.

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And he got closer to realizing
Brazil's potential than literally

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any Brazilian leader ever.

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Arguably.

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So like, I, I definitely was like,
privileging some past performance,

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but even, even if you don't like him
ideologically, like pre pre Brazil Lula

229
00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:53,190
and post Brazil Lula, like, I think he
deserves, um, some of the credit there.

230
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:54,720
But I, I al Yeah.

231
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,065
Sorry, go ahead.

232
00:10:55,065 --> 00:10:55,225
You meant

233
00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:56,700
Marko Papic: Prej pre jail and post jail.

234
00:10:57,270 --> 00:10:57,660
Jacob Shapiro: Yes.

235
00:10:57,690 --> 00:10:57,960
Sorry.

236
00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:58,110
Yes.

237
00:10:58,140 --> 00:10:58,170
Oh

238
00:10:58,170 --> 00:10:58,500
Marko Papic: no, sorry.

239
00:10:58,530 --> 00:10:59,340
Yeah, yeah.

240
00:10:59,790 --> 00:11:00,030
Sorry.

241
00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:00,330
Go ahead.

242
00:11:00,330 --> 00:11:01,500
I didn't mean to interrupt you, just

243
00:11:03,030 --> 00:11:03,390
Jacob Shapiro: No, no.

244
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,320
Marko Papic: Um, well, what I, what I
would also say about Lula is that, um.

245
00:11:07,575 --> 00:11:13,035
You know, we, we are modeling this
on Bill Simmons, uh, trade value for

246
00:11:13,035 --> 00:11:14,775
basketball players, which is awesome.

247
00:11:15,165 --> 00:11:19,245
And one of the things that, um,
you know, goes into establishing

248
00:11:19,245 --> 00:11:22,335
the trade value for a basketball
player is not just this skill.

249
00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:26,505
So when you think about Lula, he clearly
is over the course of his career and

250
00:11:26,505 --> 00:11:31,065
incredibly adapt politician, he wrangled
congress to pa pass pension reform.

251
00:11:31,125 --> 00:11:35,325
I mean, this is like a Maoist like
guerrilla leader for God's sakes,

252
00:11:35,385 --> 00:11:39,855
you know, passing pension reform
that OECD gave a thumbs up to.

253
00:11:39,855 --> 00:11:44,805
So, so he's an incredibly
skilled player of this game.

254
00:11:45,135 --> 00:11:50,595
But the two things that go in addition,
um, in the Bill Simmons basketball analogy

255
00:11:50,595 --> 00:11:52,215
of this is like, how young are they?

256
00:11:52,215 --> 00:11:53,565
How much future do they have?

257
00:11:54,015 --> 00:11:58,185
So you don't want to necessarily
trade a 23-year-old basketball

258
00:11:58,185 --> 00:12:02,625
player with a lot of upside for a
39-year-old, 40-year-old LeBron, even

259
00:12:02,625 --> 00:12:03,915
though LeBron is better right now.

260
00:12:03,975 --> 00:12:05,475
So that's a knock on Lula as well.

261
00:12:05,895 --> 00:12:10,725
Uh, I mean, to be fair, it is also a knock
on my pick of Anwar Ibrahim who got six.

262
00:12:10,725 --> 00:12:12,045
He's been around for 40 years.

263
00:12:12,405 --> 00:12:15,435
Uh, the other issue also with
Lula is the, the contract issue.

264
00:12:15,435 --> 00:12:19,425
You know, so, um, on the Bill Simmons
basketball analogy of what we're doing

265
00:12:19,425 --> 00:12:21,015
here is like you contract matters.

266
00:12:21,045 --> 00:12:25,425
If you're a 23-year-old basketball
player, young, you've got another 10,

267
00:12:25,425 --> 00:12:30,045
15 years ahead of you and you're on a
rookie deal, oh my god, that's so much

268
00:12:30,045 --> 00:12:32,085
better than being in, in your thirties.

269
00:12:32,715 --> 00:12:35,564
Your knees are already hurt
and you are, you know, 30,

270
00:12:35,564 --> 00:12:37,694
$40 million a year with Lula.

271
00:12:37,725 --> 00:12:40,995
That's also like, you know, when
politicians overstay their welcome.

272
00:12:40,995 --> 00:12:45,345
And so I do think that the, the comp
here between the real world in the

273
00:12:45,345 --> 00:12:49,095
basketball world, the rookie contract is
sort of like the honeymoon phase, right?

274
00:12:50,265 --> 00:12:50,355
Mm-hmm.

275
00:12:50,625 --> 00:12:53,415
When you get elected for the
first time, or you just seize

276
00:12:53,415 --> 00:12:55,125
power in a coup, God bless you.

277
00:12:55,125 --> 00:12:59,835
You know, like we're, we're, we're neutral
here, you know, but whatever kind of

278
00:12:59,835 --> 00:13:05,175
seizing of power you are involved in
those first couple of years, you kind

279
00:13:05,175 --> 00:13:07,995
of, on your rookie contract, you're,
you're cheap if you will, you know,

280
00:13:07,995 --> 00:13:11,085
you're, you have that fresh new car smell.

281
00:13:11,475 --> 00:13:14,625
And so I think that, uh, with Lula,
that's definitely not the case.

282
00:13:14,625 --> 00:13:17,324
So what I would say about Lula is
he's like Paul Pierce late in his

283
00:13:17,324 --> 00:13:21,465
career, you know, he's still got
a chance to hit a game-winning

284
00:13:21,465 --> 00:13:23,175
jumper, but he's kind of overweight.

285
00:13:24,329 --> 00:13:27,239
He's probably out in the
clubs too long and he's about

286
00:13:27,239 --> 00:13:28,680
to launch a podcast with kg.

287
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,819
So I would say that Lula Lula is like
about two to three years away from

288
00:13:32,819 --> 00:13:36,540
doing a podcast with like, um, I don't
know, the parishioners, I don't know.

289
00:13:36,569 --> 00:13:37,199
Like with somebody.

290
00:13:37,199 --> 00:13:37,380
Well,

291
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:38,969
Jacob Shapiro: yeah, and
I, I take your point.

292
00:13:38,969 --> 00:13:41,819
I actually think the biggest argument
against Lula, and I think he shares

293
00:13:41,819 --> 00:13:44,910
this quality with a couple other folks
on our list that will be higher up.

294
00:13:44,910 --> 00:13:48,599
I think he shares it with Narendra
Modi, I think he shares this with, uh,

295
00:13:48,599 --> 00:13:49,979
Erdogan and Turkey for a little bit.

296
00:13:49,979 --> 00:13:53,219
And I think Claudia Shane Baum,
who we're gonna give a lot of, a

297
00:13:53,219 --> 00:13:55,680
lot of d to on this podcast, like
also needs to be aware of this.

298
00:13:55,829 --> 00:13:59,550
His legacy as a leader is, is
not looking particularly good.

299
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,140
Who is one is the next Lula.

300
00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:04,050
Like what is the future of the
Brazilian left when there's no Lula?

301
00:14:04,050 --> 00:14:05,490
He cannibalized the left.

302
00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:08,910
What could have been a movement that
brought Brazil and his image of Brazil

303
00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:12,209
forward for generations has sort of
been subsumed, as you said, in this

304
00:14:12,209 --> 00:14:18,180
sort of corruption, charisma, personal
leadership, uh, sort of figure.

305
00:14:18,185 --> 00:14:20,459
And I think that's something that
Modi is really struggling with.

306
00:14:20,459 --> 00:14:21,959
Like who takes over when Modi's gone?

307
00:14:21,959 --> 00:14:25,439
Is the BJP still gonna be the
BJP when Modi's not on top of it?

308
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:29,520
If you're extrapolating today,
maybe not Erdogan, he's casting

309
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,750
about, is it his son-in-law?

310
00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:31,469
Is it somebody else?

311
00:14:31,469 --> 00:14:33,329
Like who's the successor
that follows through?

312
00:14:33,329 --> 00:14:38,069
And with Shane Baum too, like Shane
Baum is the leader of a party that

313
00:14:38,069 --> 00:14:41,069
looks like it's gonna just be the
pre, again, it looks like it's

314
00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:42,719
gonna try to be a single party.

315
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,610
Dictatorship in Mexico.

316
00:14:44,610 --> 00:14:47,520
And even though I think she's very adept
and pragmatic and all these other things,

317
00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:51,450
what happens when the next person is not
and takes the mere and machine and does it

318
00:14:51,450 --> 00:14:55,290
for things that absolutely should terrify
Mexicans and people who are thinking

319
00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:56,760
about the Mexican economy in general.

320
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,970
So for me, the biggest shot against
Lula is not what he's done so far.

321
00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:02,580
I think he's been very skilled and,
you know, corruption aside, whatever,

322
00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:03,750
these people are all corrupt.

323
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:06,630
But I don't know, I don't know that
his legacy will look particularly

324
00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:09,180
good because I think that he let
these things get to his own head.

325
00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:12,060
So if I'm arguing against myself,
that's, that's I think my weak point.

326
00:15:12,390 --> 00:15:13,950
Marko Papic: You know, first of
all, to answer your question,

327
00:15:13,950 --> 00:15:15,120
who takes over from Modi?

328
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:21,361
I would, I would pay money to see
Sue m Ja, Shankar, Ja Shankar,

329
00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:22,440
the Foreign Minister of India.

330
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,750
Listen, if you don't know what I'm
talking about, that's perfectly cool.

331
00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:26,850
This podcast is just for normal people.

332
00:15:26,850 --> 00:15:28,800
Go on YouTube and Google.

333
00:15:28,830 --> 00:15:32,460
S Ja Shankar, the foreign
minister of India.

334
00:15:32,970 --> 00:15:36,840
Um, the, I mean, this guy, uh,
actually that's not how you say it.

335
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,280
It's a minister of external affairs.

336
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,140
Um, yeah, yeah.

337
00:15:40,155 --> 00:15:42,840
But, uh, the guy, he's
t guys, he's brilliant.

338
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,230
He's a g Maybe we should do this
for ministers of Foreign Affairs.

339
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:46,980
That would be kind of cool.

340
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:47,730
The top 10.

341
00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:52,110
We should like Avi, Avi Lav is like
LeBron, but like we put that aside.

342
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,810
Uh, I think that Chen Carr is amazing.

343
00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:57,090
He's only four years younger
than Modi do, so I don't think

344
00:15:57,090 --> 00:15:58,080
he would be really a replacement.

345
00:15:58,110 --> 00:15:59,670
But, but this is an interesting point.

346
00:15:59,670 --> 00:16:04,440
We didn't actually think about this, this
legacy question like who comes after you?

347
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:09,840
That is not something that you would, uh,
really have in a basketball trade value.

348
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,470
Maybe we were over indexing to it, but
Bill Simmons does talk about people who

349
00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:15,000
raise the quality of their teammates.

350
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:15,300
Right.

351
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:16,560
That is important.

352
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:20,040
And I do think that, you know, when
you, when you think about that, who

353
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:26,220
does come after, uh, Lula, who comes
after Modi to, to give AMLO credit?

354
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:28,530
I mean, he did create Shiba.

355
00:16:28,530 --> 00:16:28,770
Yes.

356
00:16:28,770 --> 00:16:31,800
Did, I mean, you know, like, and
he stepped aside and he's now,

357
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:36,150
you know, uh, sort of like an, uh,
like an old advisor, like a grandpa

358
00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:38,640
or like a Vito Corleone Right.

359
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:40,140
In, uh, in Godfather.

360
00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:41,610
I mean, I think that's, that's amazing.

361
00:16:41,610 --> 00:16:45,330
And to AM's credit, he's really,
uh, he should be high on this

362
00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:47,280
list as well, if he was still, um.

363
00:16:47,579 --> 00:16:48,000
Playing.

364
00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:51,030
Jacob Shapiro: Well, I, I, I, I actually
do think that, just to close it out on

365
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:53,819
Lula, I, I do think there is a basketball
metaphor here though, for the trade

366
00:16:53,819 --> 00:16:57,060
list because, and we had one listener
write in and compare Lula to LeBron, and

367
00:16:57,060 --> 00:17:00,839
I'm jealous of the comparison because
it's dead on because like the legacy

368
00:17:00,839 --> 00:17:06,179
thing comes in when you're LeBron and
you're forcing the Lakers to, uh, get

369
00:17:06,179 --> 00:17:08,760
Russell Westbrook on the team because
you think that's what's gonna happen.

370
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,099
You're gonna leave unless you get
Russell Westbrook on the team.

371
00:17:11,129 --> 00:17:12,119
That's what I'm talking about.

372
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:12,120
Yeah.

373
00:17:12,126 --> 00:17:12,395
I see that.

374
00:17:12,395 --> 00:17:15,179
Like, you're selling the future,
you're forcing your organization

375
00:17:15,179 --> 00:17:16,889
to do what you want right now.

376
00:17:16,919 --> 00:17:17,010
Yes.

377
00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:19,379
And not setting them up for
long term when you retire.

378
00:17:19,379 --> 00:17:21,329
So I, I think there's an aspect of that.

379
00:17:22,050 --> 00:17:22,710
Marko Papic: Yeah, that's true.

380
00:17:22,714 --> 00:17:23,669
I, I see that point.

381
00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:24,389
That's actually pretty good.

382
00:17:24,389 --> 00:17:27,690
And I mean, you're, you're 40 years
old and still putting up points, but,

383
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,159
you know, are they empty calories?

384
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:30,030
Okay.

385
00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:31,409
Uh, next one is also your pick.

386
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,360
So we got three picks of yours, 33.

387
00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:39,750
Victor Orban, um, hated the pick at the
beginning, but I don't hate it anymore.

388
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:40,770
Jacob Shapiro: Hmm.

389
00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:43,711
Marko Papic: I'm surprised
you made the pick, you know?

390
00:17:43,764 --> 00:17:44,385
Oh, I felt,

391
00:17:44,389 --> 00:17:45,120
Jacob Shapiro: I felt dirty.

392
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,659
I felt dirty making the pick, but this
is my allegiance to objectivity here.

393
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:49,919
Marko Papic: No, that's excellent.

394
00:17:49,919 --> 00:17:53,310
I mean, and, and I think, you know, at
first, you know, I don't like leaders that

395
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:55,110
are just effective at staying in power.

396
00:17:55,139 --> 00:17:56,970
You know, like that's not
what this list is about.

397
00:17:57,030 --> 00:18:01,290
You know, this list is about
are you actually good at getting

398
00:18:01,290 --> 00:18:03,120
your country to the NBA finals?

399
00:18:03,149 --> 00:18:04,290
Basically, this is about winning.

400
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:08,520
This is about making the country
better, making it great again.

401
00:18:09,030 --> 00:18:12,240
And I gotta say, I mean, Victor
Orban has defended, I think

402
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,560
Hungarian interest very well.

403
00:18:14,235 --> 00:18:20,385
Uh, and for the most part he has
used his, um, annoying qualities

404
00:18:20,745 --> 00:18:26,595
in a really positive way in which
he has extracted concessions from

405
00:18:26,595 --> 00:18:29,715
Europe just to kind of play along.

406
00:18:30,375 --> 00:18:34,245
And I think that's been,
um, quite admirable from an

407
00:18:34,245 --> 00:18:35,895
effectiveness policy point of view.

408
00:18:36,735 --> 00:18:41,145
Now, whether he has brought, you know,
soft authoritarianism back to Europe,

409
00:18:41,145 --> 00:18:44,205
you know, the kind of things that the
foreign affairs are, God forbid the

410
00:18:44,205 --> 00:18:47,535
Economist would write about, I don't
really give a shit about that stuff.

411
00:18:47,565 --> 00:18:48,645
That's not what I'm looking at.

412
00:18:48,675 --> 00:18:50,865
Maybe in the long term that
will be a problem for Hungary.

413
00:18:51,105 --> 00:18:53,775
I'm not sure, but I do
think that was a good pick.

414
00:18:53,835 --> 00:18:54,285
Jacob.

415
00:18:54,285 --> 00:18:55,935
So he is 33 third.

416
00:18:56,265 --> 00:18:58,335
I didn't have him on
the list, so he slipped.

417
00:18:58,725 --> 00:18:59,565
Jacob Shapiro: I think he's good.

418
00:18:59,565 --> 00:19:00,825
I think he has a ceiling.

419
00:19:00,885 --> 00:19:05,055
Like if your country is facing like
other countries that are going after

420
00:19:05,055 --> 00:19:07,695
it, or if you're, if you're in a real
problem neighborhood or something like

421
00:19:07,695 --> 00:19:09,555
that, like you'll want Victor Orban.

422
00:19:09,615 --> 00:19:11,625
If you're swimming with the sharks,
you want a shark of your own.

423
00:19:11,625 --> 00:19:14,985
If you start the upper levels of my list,
where you're starting to get into open

424
00:19:14,985 --> 00:19:17,835
democracies where elections are completely
fair and open and things like that,

425
00:19:17,865 --> 00:19:19,575
Orban is not gonna work in that system.

426
00:19:19,575 --> 00:19:20,835
His method of rule is not gonna work.

427
00:19:20,835 --> 00:19:23,145
And that's why you probably trade
some of those people in front of him.

428
00:19:23,145 --> 00:19:26,895
Like even if they're not as adept
as politicians, like you probably

429
00:19:26,895 --> 00:19:27,735
still wouldn't trade for them.

430
00:19:27,735 --> 00:19:30,795
But if you're any kind of country that
has like problems or you're thinking

431
00:19:30,795 --> 00:19:33,885
about defending your interest in a
rough neighborhood, like that's why

432
00:19:33,885 --> 00:19:35,385
he earns the, this spot on the list.

433
00:19:35,385 --> 00:19:37,785
'cause if you're in that sort of
situation, you're gonna want this

434
00:19:37,785 --> 00:19:41,055
guy, like this guy is ruthless about
pursuing national interests and tying

435
00:19:41,055 --> 00:19:42,405
his own future to the national interest.

436
00:19:42,405 --> 00:19:44,145
I think that's, I don't
think that's arguable

437
00:19:44,595 --> 00:19:45,075
Marko Papic: correct.

438
00:19:45,075 --> 00:19:47,475
I think he would've done a
better job, for example, than

439
00:19:47,475 --> 00:19:49,305
me, him in Netanyahu in Israel.

440
00:19:49,335 --> 00:19:52,245
So I would've traded him
for, uh, Benjamin Nhu.

441
00:19:52,485 --> 00:19:54,735
The other thing I would say
about Orban is that I think

442
00:19:54,735 --> 00:19:56,295
you might be too harsh on him.

443
00:19:56,355 --> 00:20:01,425
I mean, he, he did also, uh, he was
electorally successful even when he was

444
00:20:01,425 --> 00:20:05,565
far more committed to liberal democracy,
you know, so he's, he's got range.

445
00:20:05,895 --> 00:20:08,685
Uh, what I would say about Victor
Orban is if we were comparing him

446
00:20:08,685 --> 00:20:11,415
to a, like a basketball player,
he's someone who has transformed

447
00:20:11,415 --> 00:20:13,485
himself and the way that he plays.

448
00:20:13,575 --> 00:20:17,505
He was a down low banker in the
post, and then he learned how to,

449
00:20:17,625 --> 00:20:19,605
you know, he's like Brooke Lopez.

450
00:20:19,905 --> 00:20:20,475
That's a good to,

451
00:20:21,045 --> 00:20:21,135
Jacob Shapiro: yeah.

452
00:20:21,135 --> 00:20:21,795
Al Horford.

453
00:20:22,005 --> 00:20:22,335
Yeah.

454
00:20:22,335 --> 00:20:22,336
Yeah.

455
00:20:22,575 --> 00:20:22,905
I got you.

456
00:20:22,905 --> 00:20:23,295
Marko Papic: There you go.

457
00:20:23,535 --> 00:20:23,895
Yes.

458
00:20:23,895 --> 00:20:25,185
Just, you know, kind of annoying.

459
00:20:26,745 --> 00:20:27,345
Uh.

460
00:20:27,645 --> 00:20:31,365
Francis, uh, Vatican, Pope Francis 32nd.

461
00:20:31,365 --> 00:20:33,135
I gotta say, this was kind of a joke pic.

462
00:20:33,165 --> 00:20:36,195
He ends up being pretty high, but I
think he's gonna be a really good pope.

463
00:20:36,255 --> 00:20:37,155
So let's move on.

464
00:20:37,785 --> 00:20:39,705
Alright, uh, 31st.

465
00:20:40,215 --> 00:20:41,295
Benjamin Netanyahu.

466
00:20:41,295 --> 00:20:41,985
Your pick.

467
00:20:42,045 --> 00:20:44,505
Uh, here, uh, I do disagree.

468
00:20:44,565 --> 00:20:50,145
Um, unlike Orban, I don't think he is,
uh, like 10 years from now after Orban

469
00:20:50,145 --> 00:20:51,705
is gone, like 10 years after Orban.

470
00:20:51,705 --> 00:20:55,125
I think the Hungary is better off than
Orban, particularly because I think

471
00:20:55,125 --> 00:20:58,875
institutions of Hungary will swing
back towards liberal democracy and

472
00:20:58,875 --> 00:21:03,075
only Westerners sitting in London and
writing about, you know, other countries,

473
00:21:03,105 --> 00:21:06,885
uh, disagree with that, uh, because
they look down on Eastern Europe.

474
00:21:06,885 --> 00:21:09,495
So I don't actually have a problem
with Orban and what he's doing.

475
00:21:09,495 --> 00:21:10,545
Like it's gonna be fine.

476
00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:13,005
Settle down, hung is not gonna go fascist.

477
00:21:13,845 --> 00:21:16,155
Benjamin Netanyahu, eh, I don't know.

478
00:21:16,485 --> 00:21:20,595
I think he's enabled, I think he's
enabled the worst parts of, uh,

479
00:21:20,595 --> 00:21:24,585
Israeli politics to kind of bubble up
to the surface to be normalized and

480
00:21:24,735 --> 00:21:27,255
purely for petty personal interests.

481
00:21:27,255 --> 00:21:30,945
I really, really struggled to see
much, uh, long-term strategy here.

482
00:21:30,945 --> 00:21:34,125
But you did have a very, very
high, and I think that's, you know,

483
00:21:34,125 --> 00:21:37,365
like if you look at him purely
from a geopolitical perspective,

484
00:21:37,935 --> 00:21:39,435
I mean, he has kind of crushed it.

485
00:21:39,435 --> 00:21:40,275
And I agree with that.

486
00:21:40,275 --> 00:21:44,535
Iran is on the back foot, Hezbollah
hesitating to check their text messages.

487
00:21:44,895 --> 00:21:49,545
Uh, and, uh, you know, Hamas is
obviously, um, yeah, basically destroyed.

488
00:21:49,605 --> 00:21:53,445
So, uh, I do understand it from a,
from an effectiveness perspective

489
00:21:53,445 --> 00:21:54,375
and a military perspective.

490
00:21:54,375 --> 00:21:55,245
He has done really well.

491
00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:56,205
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah.

492
00:21:56,655 --> 00:21:59,025
I, nothing really to add there for me.

493
00:21:59,025 --> 00:22:01,395
Just that like, he probably
wouldn't have made it this high

494
00:22:01,395 --> 00:22:03,285
on my list even 12 months ago.

495
00:22:03,525 --> 00:22:07,485
But the quick succession of decimating
Hezbollah and then decimating Iran

496
00:22:07,485 --> 00:22:11,475
like this, like it's extremely, like,
it's, it's not something I thought.

497
00:22:11,475 --> 00:22:14,055
So maybe I'm over-indexing because
I didn't think that he was capable

498
00:22:14,055 --> 00:22:15,285
of it or Israel was capable of it.

499
00:22:15,285 --> 00:22:19,215
But I also think there's no arguing
that like he understood this threat

500
00:22:19,215 --> 00:22:22,275
and he went after it to, to the point
of understanding the United States,

501
00:22:22,275 --> 00:22:25,215
understanding that all he needed to
do was back Trump into a corner and

502
00:22:25,215 --> 00:22:27,015
give him FOMO on foreign policy.

503
00:22:27,015 --> 00:22:30,195
And he would help in the war rather
than slap Israel in the wrist.

504
00:22:30,195 --> 00:22:31,755
Like he, he read the room correctly.

505
00:22:31,755 --> 00:22:32,775
He's got a hot hand right now.

506
00:22:33,195 --> 00:22:36,345
Marko Papic: You know what I would say
about Benjamin Thu, my comp for him.

507
00:22:36,345 --> 00:22:37,995
I know I said Gilbert Arenas.

508
00:22:38,655 --> 00:22:39,675
That's, that's not fair.

509
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:42,525
Gilbert Arenas, other than a few
years in Washington, never really

510
00:22:42,525 --> 00:22:44,205
took his team deep in the playoffs.

511
00:22:44,295 --> 00:22:48,825
I would say Benjamin Thu is Paul
George three his playoff b hmm.

512
00:22:49,095 --> 00:22:52,275
You know, like remember when the Indiana
pastries with Paul George like took

513
00:22:52,275 --> 00:22:55,065
LeBron to like I do a couple like, yeah.

514
00:22:55,065 --> 00:22:58,845
So, but, but he's terrible and
he's terrible for your team and he

515
00:22:58,845 --> 00:23:04,125
whines and he's selfish and he's
also, maybe he and Lula will do a

516
00:23:04,125 --> 00:23:08,235
podcast to together to complete the
Paul Pearson Paul George analogy.

517
00:23:08,505 --> 00:23:13,995
Alright, we go from the Vatican
to Israel to Al-Qaeda, Ahed Al. I

518
00:23:13,995 --> 00:23:15,435
mean obviously that's how we go.

519
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:16,830
30th on the list.

520
00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:18,420
He was very, very high on mine.

521
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:19,740
I know you love this pick.

522
00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:21,120
I know you're jealous of it.

523
00:23:21,125 --> 00:23:21,505
That's fine.

524
00:23:21,505 --> 00:23:21,825
Mm-hmm.

525
00:23:21,905 --> 00:23:23,040
We can share it together.

526
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:28,950
The former Al-Qaeda leader of Syria,
uh, this is, this is your 19-year-old

527
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:31,260
seven foot six project from France.

528
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:33,570
This is the guy that you
don't know if he's gonna stay

529
00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:35,370
healthy or in the real world.

530
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:37,590
The equivalent of that would be alive.

531
00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:40,260
So you don't know any of those things.

532
00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:44,400
You are confused, but
just the range is amazing.

533
00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:48,720
Great family with a lot of
political, uh, roots in Syria.

534
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,230
This is not some dude that came
out of a cave, picked up an AK

535
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:54,180
47 and decided to be a terrorist.

536
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:58,680
This is a university educated,
frustrated dude, hated Assad.

537
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,170
The only way to fight
Assad was to join Al-Qaeda.

538
00:24:01,470 --> 00:24:02,400
And he did.

539
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:03,720
God bless him.

540
00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:06,660
And then he was like,
Hmm, Windsor changing.

541
00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:09,390
Maybe I should put on a
tie and trim my beard.

542
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,970
And then here he is on CNN speaking
to Christiana Amur, which was

543
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:19,830
one of the most fascinating 180
degree turns from a PR perspective.

544
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,490
I think, uh, this is one of
the highest rated leaders here.

545
00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:26,520
This guy's got something, he's
got that something special.

546
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:29,145
Um, I'm really fascinated, uh, was quiet.

547
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,450
The only Arab leader that was quiet
during the Israel Iran conflict, the

548
00:24:33,450 --> 00:24:37,260
only one that did not disparage Israel
for attacking Iran, has been pretty

549
00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:39,690
unequivocally anti-Iran this entire time.

550
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,330
He's got Trump basically.

551
00:24:42,735 --> 00:24:46,455
Uh, advocating for, uh, Syria
to be brought back into the

552
00:24:46,455 --> 00:24:49,635
international community is gonna
be very, very tough for him.

553
00:24:49,935 --> 00:24:53,865
He's basically a draft project,
young player, lots of potential

554
00:24:53,865 --> 00:24:55,784
rookie contract, honeymoon period.

555
00:24:56,024 --> 00:24:59,865
But he did get drafted by
an absolutely terrible team.

556
00:25:00,014 --> 00:25:02,084
What is a comp for Syria in the NBA?

557
00:25:02,084 --> 00:25:03,465
Probably the Washington Wizards.

558
00:25:03,824 --> 00:25:08,024
So, you know, we'll see if he
survives, but he's 30th and

559
00:25:08,024 --> 00:25:09,195
I think that's appropriate.

560
00:25:09,254 --> 00:25:12,615
Um, I think that's so far what
we've seen pretty extraordinary.

561
00:25:13,215 --> 00:25:14,955
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I, I don't have
anything to add 'cause I was jealous

562
00:25:14,955 --> 00:25:17,804
of the pick, but I will say to our
Nordic listeners who were sending in

563
00:25:17,804 --> 00:25:20,895
the hate mail, you know, I had met to
Frederickson up at 12, so as a result

564
00:25:20,895 --> 00:25:24,165
of smooshing together, MAA Marco's
List, Metta comes in at 39th on this

565
00:25:24,165 --> 00:25:26,054
list, and Ahmed Al Shara is at 30.

566
00:25:26,294 --> 00:25:29,145
Would you trade Metta
Frankon for Ahmed Al Shara?

567
00:25:29,985 --> 00:25:31,814
Just throwing that out there
to the Danish listeners.

568
00:25:31,814 --> 00:25:33,975
Like, just, just, just cook
with that question for a little

569
00:25:33,975 --> 00:25:34,905
bit and then come back to me.

570
00:25:34,905 --> 00:25:38,054
If, if you would still make the trade
and, and if you would, then, then fine,

571
00:25:38,054 --> 00:25:40,845
then I respect the take, but like,
just, just slow down a little bit.

572
00:25:40,845 --> 00:25:43,995
Unless you want, unless you want
the Alqaeda guy in charge, you know,

573
00:25:45,014 --> 00:25:48,314
Marko Papic: I mean, you
know, like he's doing well.

574
00:25:48,314 --> 00:25:52,935
I'm pretty sure he's gonna handle the
intricacy of pension reform if he can

575
00:25:52,935 --> 00:25:55,274
handle the intricacy of ethnic conflict.

576
00:25:55,365 --> 00:25:55,784
We'll see.

577
00:25:56,445 --> 00:26:00,014
Uh, alright, next pick was kind
of a deep, uh, deep reach by me.

578
00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:01,274
I, I reached into my bag.

579
00:26:01,335 --> 00:26:04,425
Eddie Rama from Albania, he
has done really great job.

580
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,860
You then picked, uh, you
went deep in your bag too.

581
00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:10,500
This guy was very high on
your list, wasn't on mine.

582
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:11,670
That's why he got penalized.

583
00:26:11,670 --> 00:26:12,960
But I am jealous of this.

584
00:26:13,260 --> 00:26:18,210
Shav got me from Uzbekistan who
has transformed the country.

585
00:26:18,210 --> 00:26:20,160
Jacob Shapiro: I was
jealous of the Albania pick.

586
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,760
And I, I think these are both like really
nice, like deep in the bag examples.

587
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,370
It'd be interesting to see if
these guys could get called up

588
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:28,470
to, uh, to the, to the pros.

589
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:30,750
But they're doing very well
in their, in their spheres.

590
00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:35,010
Marko Papic: Uh, you then went
with Shakiro Yeshiva from Japan.

591
00:26:35,250 --> 00:26:36,690
Um, I thought that was a great pick.

592
00:26:36,690 --> 00:26:40,800
I didn't have him, but I think he's
doing really, really well despite, um,

593
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,230
relatively tap popularity in Japan.

594
00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:45,990
The Japanese just does, don't
like their leaders ever.

595
00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:47,610
So, uh, God bless him.

596
00:26:47,610 --> 00:26:51,960
He's doing great in the negotiations
with, uh, Trump is, uh, you know,

597
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:56,280
he's the one, the one leader that has
decided to hold out for a better deal.

598
00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:00,030
Kayak cull, uh, another person
that was very high on your list,

599
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:04,590
uh, is from Estonia, got, uh,
penalized because I did not pick her.

600
00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:05,910
I think that was a good pick.

601
00:27:06,210 --> 00:27:08,100
Karen Keller Suiter from Switzerland.

602
00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:12,540
I thought this was, uh, you know, it's,
it's kind of like picking, I don't

603
00:27:12,540 --> 00:27:16,229
know, like Tony Parker outta the Spurs.

604
00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:19,529
Is Tony Parker really good, or
were the Spurs really a great team?

605
00:27:20,459 --> 00:27:20,793
Jacob Shapiro: Oh, it's,
it's not even that.

606
00:27:20,793 --> 00:27:21,899
It's, it's more like Shane Batier.

607
00:27:21,959 --> 00:27:23,759
It's like a really, really safe pick.

608
00:27:24,419 --> 00:27:26,189
Marko Papic: It's a, it's a safe
pick, but also it's like the

609
00:27:26,189 --> 00:27:30,149
system, you know, this is a great
example of, of just the country.

610
00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:32,070
So, well, I think I could run Switzerland.

611
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,479
Um, and then we get into, so now
we're getting into like the, the picks

612
00:27:36,479 --> 00:27:40,139
where I, I, I mean, we're not there
yet, but like Abdullah's, second of

613
00:27:40,139 --> 00:27:42,179
Jordan, very difficult situation.

614
00:27:42,179 --> 00:27:42,749
Doing great.

615
00:27:43,199 --> 00:27:46,110
Pedro Sanchez from Swain
got a lot of hate mail.

616
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:49,469
Somebody compared him to Merkel
because of energy policy.

617
00:27:49,739 --> 00:27:52,110
Please look at the data
first before you say that.

618
00:27:52,889 --> 00:27:56,310
Spain is one of the few places in
the world where it does make sense

619
00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,560
to go hard into alternative energy.

620
00:27:59,009 --> 00:28:01,169
Uh, so disagree with you completely.

621
00:28:01,290 --> 00:28:05,459
There's a boom in data centers in Spain
because of their alternative energy

622
00:28:05,459 --> 00:28:08,699
policies, because their electricity
prices go to zero for God's sakes.

623
00:28:09,239 --> 00:28:14,009
Uh, Oman's, he binta
Saltan, he binta of Oman.

624
00:28:14,009 --> 00:28:14,699
22nd.

625
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:15,989
Xi Jinping 21st.

626
00:28:15,989 --> 00:28:16,649
We'll get back to that.

627
00:28:16,649 --> 00:28:17,429
Let's hold that thought.

628
00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:20,280
Moham Mohamed's, sixth of Morocco.

629
00:28:20,909 --> 00:28:26,370
So, uh, also for the extraordinary
transformation of Morocco is 20th, top 20.

630
00:28:27,389 --> 00:28:30,269
Kasim Jomar to Kazakhstan.

631
00:28:30,539 --> 00:28:31,889
I went deep into my bag.

632
00:28:31,889 --> 00:28:33,269
He was top five pick for me.

633
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:34,769
He did not make your list.

634
00:28:35,159 --> 00:28:36,690
Because he was so highly ranked.

635
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:41,760
He sneaked into 19 and now Kuski,
he was also top five for me.

636
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,700
Greek prime Minister, who has
led to extraordinary reforms.

637
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:47,310
Olo Deir, Zelensky 17.

638
00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:48,960
Hold that thought will come back to him.

639
00:28:48,990 --> 00:28:49,139
Mm-hmm.

640
00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:50,310
Yep.

641
00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:55,020
Uh, and now we get into, uh, some
leaders that we both had on the

642
00:28:55,020 --> 00:28:56,490
list, which is why they're so high.

643
00:28:56,790 --> 00:29:00,240
These leaders are so high because
we, there's consensus now top 15,

644
00:29:00,570 --> 00:29:02,970
basically Amal Amman, Macron at 16.

645
00:29:03,810 --> 00:29:06,360
Uh, neither one of us picked
him actually this high.

646
00:29:06,450 --> 00:29:12,210
But where we aggregated our list, he
went up because many of our higher picks,

647
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,010
better picks, in our opinion, in, in
one of our opinions, just got penalized.

648
00:29:17,010 --> 00:29:18,300
'cause they were only on one list.

649
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,215
So by default, Macron won kind
of how he won his second term.

650
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:23,820
Exactly.

651
00:29:24,659 --> 00:29:28,080
You know, like both of
us felt uncomfortable not

652
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,159
putting Macron on the list.

653
00:29:29,159 --> 00:29:32,460
He did transform French politics
for the first time since Charlotte

654
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:33,750
de Gold in a significant way.

655
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:35,940
So we're sitting there
like, yeah, okay, fine.

656
00:29:35,940 --> 00:29:40,050
You know, he's always in the mix,
but most French people are probably

657
00:29:40,050 --> 00:29:41,580
lighting themselves in fire for us.

658
00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:43,320
Having him, well, you know what guys?

659
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,659
You should do yourself with more gasoline.

660
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,190
'cause he kind of squirted his
way up higher onto our list.

661
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,620
Ami Rwanda also.

662
00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:54,990
We both picked him 15th on the list.

663
00:29:56,190 --> 00:29:58,230
I 14th.

664
00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:00,810
Hey, listen, bald, don't lie, right?

665
00:30:00,810 --> 00:30:00,990
Mm-hmm.

666
00:30:01,409 --> 00:30:05,430
Now Goba not in Armenia anymore,
so he is high on this list.

667
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:08,879
Although obviously we should,
we should caveat this.

668
00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:10,860
How difficult is it to win a war?

669
00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:17,250
Uh, a war when you are washed in commodity
proceeds Friedrich me of Germany.

670
00:30:17,399 --> 00:30:18,240
Number 13.

671
00:30:18,270 --> 00:30:21,629
I mean, we're treating Merz
here as if, I don't know.

672
00:30:21,629 --> 00:30:25,649
He's Victor Van Bama or at
least, uh, what's, what's the,

673
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:26,850
the kid's name outta Duke.

674
00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:27,720
My brain just stopped.

675
00:30:28,169 --> 00:30:28,830
Jacob Shapiro: Cooper Flag

676
00:30:28,835 --> 00:30:28,845
Marko Papic: Flag.

677
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:29,790
Cooper Flag.

678
00:30:29,790 --> 00:30:32,190
I mean, Friedrich Mertz Cooper
flag on this list just got

679
00:30:32,190 --> 00:30:33,930
picked number one in the NBA.

680
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,030
We're basically giving
Mertz a lot of credit.

681
00:30:36,419 --> 00:30:39,570
And to be, to be clear,
he is, uh, summer workout.

682
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,820
YouTube videos are extraordinary.

683
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,280
So I, he, I do think he deserves it.

684
00:30:44,730 --> 00:30:49,680
Um, Erdogan another guy who's courted his
way up 'cause he was on both of our list.

685
00:30:49,889 --> 00:30:51,300
He managed to get to 12.

686
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,210
I don't think either one of us
really wanted him 12, but here he is.

687
00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:54,659
Mm-hmm.

688
00:30:54,899 --> 00:30:58,379
Lo wonk, Lawrence Wonk, I agree
with, I had him much lower than

689
00:30:58,379 --> 00:31:02,129
you did, but I had him on the list
contemplating putting him in top 10.

690
00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:03,389
He's number 11.

691
00:31:03,450 --> 00:31:04,230
I agree with that.

692
00:31:04,530 --> 00:31:05,190
He's young.

693
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:09,360
He's, he just started as the
prime Minister of Singapore a year

694
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,350
ago, and so far what I've seen
is, uh, pretty impressive stuff.

695
00:31:13,651 --> 00:31:20,491
cyril OSA number 10, um, complicated
alliance with the, uh, da.

696
00:31:20,941 --> 00:31:24,961
He's, uh, he's the first leader of South
Africa and has basically had to, uh, you

697
00:31:24,961 --> 00:31:30,031
know, uh, reach out to the opposition to
create a pretty significant coalition.

698
00:31:30,301 --> 00:31:33,481
And of course, his, uh, handling of
Donald Trump, I think was very good.

699
00:31:34,081 --> 00:31:34,171
Mm-hmm.

700
00:31:34,411 --> 00:31:39,091
Now the most controversial,
uh, part of this number nine,

701
00:31:39,661 --> 00:31:41,761
massive hate mail from Australia.

702
00:31:41,761 --> 00:31:46,141
I mean, Australians are quitting,
they're unsubscribing from geopolitical

703
00:31:46,141 --> 00:31:51,211
cousins in droves because they all hate
the Anthony Albanese pig, you know?

704
00:31:51,211 --> 00:31:58,651
And, uh, I I, I have to admit, I
hesitated putting him as high as I did.

705
00:31:59,011 --> 00:32:00,481
He was, where was he on my list?

706
00:32:00,481 --> 00:32:01,921
He was really high on my list, I think.

707
00:32:01,921 --> 00:32:05,281
Oh, no, he was 20, 20 20th on my list.

708
00:32:05,356 --> 00:32:08,461
Jacob Shapiro: No, he was 10th on my list
of br Bring the hate over here, Ozzie.

709
00:32:08,461 --> 00:32:08,856
I'm ready for it.

710
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:09,416
So

711
00:32:09,416 --> 00:32:11,521
Marko Papic: I, he was
20 of mine, 10 on yours.

712
00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,651
He ends up nine on the combined list.

713
00:32:14,281 --> 00:32:15,991
Uh, and I think that that's too harsh.

714
00:32:16,021 --> 00:32:17,671
You know, like all the, all the hate mail.

715
00:32:17,671 --> 00:32:17,971
Fine.

716
00:32:17,971 --> 00:32:19,381
Maybe he's 10 spots too high.

717
00:32:19,381 --> 00:32:20,161
Who cares?

718
00:32:20,581 --> 00:32:24,691
I think he's, uh, done a pretty
admirable job of geopolitical balancing.

719
00:32:24,721 --> 00:32:28,921
I think most Aussies that hate
de pick don't understand why

720
00:32:28,921 --> 00:32:30,211
he's saw Aloof of America.

721
00:32:30,481 --> 00:32:33,211
And my answer is because he
understands the world is not bipolar.

722
00:32:33,211 --> 00:32:37,741
For the first Australian leader
who gets the picking sides.

723
00:32:38,146 --> 00:32:41,086
So clearly is probably a mistake.

724
00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:42,226
So I give him credit for that.

725
00:32:42,316 --> 00:32:43,846
What's your defense of albanese?

726
00:32:44,656 --> 00:32:46,876
Jacob Shapiro: Well, it's sort of, first
of all, it's sort of like kiir starer,

727
00:32:46,876 --> 00:32:48,526
like think about who else is on this list.

728
00:32:48,526 --> 00:32:52,456
So if you're in Australia, are
you gonna trade, uh, albanese for

729
00:32:52,456 --> 00:32:53,416
somebody who's lower on those list?

730
00:32:53,416 --> 00:32:55,516
Like, would you rather have
Benjamin Netanyahu running your

731
00:32:55,516 --> 00:32:59,236
country or, you know, uh, ab fatal
Assisi or somebody like that?

732
00:32:59,236 --> 00:33:00,226
Like, like so slow.

733
00:33:00,226 --> 00:33:01,036
Your role a little bit there.

734
00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:04,876
I think you're right about, um, look,
Australia's defense relationship with

735
00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:08,596
the United States incredibly critical for
Australian geopolitics, but your biggest

736
00:33:08,596 --> 00:33:10,366
trading relationship is with China.

737
00:33:10,666 --> 00:33:13,276
You can't just give the middle
finger to China in a world that is

738
00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:16,396
moving multipolar where the United
States is less reliable in general.

739
00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:19,846
And I guess also just with
Albany, like what's the scandal?

740
00:33:19,906 --> 00:33:21,196
Like, what has he effed up?

741
00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:25,156
I haven't heard, almost, almost nothing
from Australian politics has risen to

742
00:33:25,156 --> 00:33:29,296
the level of I need to work on this right
now for clients in ever since he is been

743
00:33:29,296 --> 00:33:31,576
elected, because he's just handling shit.

744
00:33:31,606 --> 00:33:32,806
Like, is it brilliant?

745
00:33:32,806 --> 00:33:35,116
Is he the, is he the best
Australian leader ever?

746
00:33:35,506 --> 00:33:36,916
No, none of this necessarily.

747
00:33:36,916 --> 00:33:39,886
But when you start comparing him to some
of the other folks on this list, and

748
00:33:39,886 --> 00:33:43,576
by the way, doing this exercise makes
you realize just how few leaders there

749
00:33:43,576 --> 00:33:46,546
are out there that you would even want
to be in charge of your own country.

750
00:33:46,846 --> 00:33:48,766
But, you know, we're, we're talking
about would you rather have Xi

751
00:33:48,766 --> 00:33:50,686
Jinping as the leader of Australia?

752
00:33:50,716 --> 00:33:54,436
Would you rather have, um, you know,
Pedro Sanchez or somebody like that?

753
00:33:54,436 --> 00:33:57,766
Like I, I think that if you're judging
him relatively, and you're looking

754
00:33:57,766 --> 00:33:59,626
at his record, he's been competent.

755
00:33:59,656 --> 00:34:03,916
Even if he's been uninspiring, he's
correctly navigating geopolitical,

756
00:34:04,066 --> 00:34:05,626
very tough geopolitical Cs.

757
00:34:05,626 --> 00:34:08,986
Like I, yeah, it's, it's not a full
throat that he's the, the best thing ever.

758
00:34:08,986 --> 00:34:12,796
But if you're thinking, if you're being
faithful to the exercise, I have a hard

759
00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:14,236
time seeing why he should be penalized.

760
00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:16,846
But I'm open to the Australians telling
me, no, Jacob, you don't know all these

761
00:34:16,846 --> 00:34:17,926
other terrible things that he's done.

762
00:34:17,926 --> 00:34:20,626
Please tell me the terrible,
awful things that he's done to

763
00:34:20,626 --> 00:34:22,006
collapse the Australian economy.

764
00:34:22,006 --> 00:34:24,106
Because here, sitting here in New
Orleans, I don't see, it seems

765
00:34:24,106 --> 00:34:25,126
to me Australia's doing okay.

766
00:34:26,566 --> 00:34:28,576
Marko Papic: Yeah, no, I, I think
you, you did a great job there.

767
00:34:28,576 --> 00:34:31,426
And I, I do think it was funny
how much hate mail we got from

768
00:34:31,426 --> 00:34:33,016
Westerners hating their own leaders.

769
00:34:33,346 --> 00:34:36,586
Uh, by the way, just to be
clear, we love the hate mail.

770
00:34:36,736 --> 00:34:37,636
Please keep it coming.

771
00:34:37,846 --> 00:34:38,596
Jacob Shapiro: Yes, please.

772
00:34:38,836 --> 00:34:39,796
Marko Papic: Absolutely No problem.

773
00:34:40,306 --> 00:34:42,826
But we will expose you
and make fun of you.

774
00:34:43,456 --> 00:34:47,806
Like that is something that
you have to take on that risk

775
00:34:48,106 --> 00:34:49,066
if you send us hate mail.

776
00:34:49,066 --> 00:34:53,356
So, uh, lots of, lots of criticism
of these leaders and, and

777
00:34:53,356 --> 00:34:55,516
again, nobody in Turkey sent us.

778
00:34:55,906 --> 00:34:58,156
Uh, it's funny because, you know,
a lot of these picks are very

779
00:34:58,156 --> 00:34:59,176
controversial in the countries.

780
00:34:59,176 --> 00:35:03,161
They're picked, but only the westerners
unequivocally hate their leaders.

781
00:35:03,161 --> 00:35:03,561
Mm-hmm.

782
00:35:03,981 --> 00:35:05,561
Now we're getting into idea or, or, or, or

783
00:35:05,561 --> 00:35:09,442
Jacob Shapiro: feel safe about, uh, or
feel safe, uh, izing their leaders Fair.

784
00:35:10,846 --> 00:35:11,146
Marko Papic: Alright.

785
00:35:11,146 --> 00:35:12,016
That's, that is fair.

786
00:35:12,046 --> 00:35:12,256
Okay.

787
00:35:12,256 --> 00:35:14,776
So let's, uh, let's get
into, uh, number nine.

788
00:35:15,406 --> 00:35:16,126
Sorry, number eight.

789
00:35:16,216 --> 00:35:17,716
Number eight on our list is Javier Mil.

790
00:35:18,706 --> 00:35:20,266
Uh, high on both of our lists.

791
00:35:20,326 --> 00:35:23,291
Um, you know, I think that's, but,

792
00:35:23,291 --> 00:35:25,696
Jacob Shapiro: but, but, but also a great
example of what I was just talking about.

793
00:35:25,696 --> 00:35:28,516
'cause he was 17 on my list
and Albanese was number 10.

794
00:35:28,516 --> 00:35:31,606
So I say again to the Australians, would
you rather have the chainsaw wielding

795
00:35:31,606 --> 00:35:33,616
maniac as the leader of your country?

796
00:35:33,616 --> 00:35:35,266
Because in my list, no, you wouldn't.

797
00:35:35,266 --> 00:35:38,416
There's, like, if you're a certain
level of like, messed up country,

798
00:35:38,416 --> 00:35:41,206
yeah, you might want the chainsaw to
come out and try and do some reform,

799
00:35:41,206 --> 00:35:43,666
but like, that's not exactly what
I would wanna trade for in general.

800
00:35:43,666 --> 00:35:46,636
But because Melay was on both of our
lists, and because he is do, he's really

801
00:35:46,636 --> 00:35:50,596
doing such an ambitious thing and trying
to turn around Argentina, which for

802
00:35:50,596 --> 00:35:52,426
over a century has been a basket case.

803
00:35:52,426 --> 00:35:54,886
Like he gets some dier, but
that just to push back against

804
00:35:54,886 --> 00:35:55,816
the Australians one more time.

805
00:35:56,721 --> 00:35:57,011
Marko Papic: Yeah.

806
00:35:57,131 --> 00:36:00,046
I think, you know what, I, I think
you're right and I think a lot of, uh,

807
00:36:00,831 --> 00:36:02,656
so, so I, I'll take two sides of this.

808
00:36:02,656 --> 00:36:06,436
First of all, I, I think a lot of our
listeners in the West, they have to

809
00:36:06,436 --> 00:36:09,226
understand that this is kind of like.

810
00:36:10,666 --> 00:36:12,196
What moment in your life are you in?

811
00:36:13,276 --> 00:36:14,896
Like when you're 23 years old?

812
00:36:14,896 --> 00:36:17,146
And I'm gonna try to do this
in a gender neutral way.

813
00:36:18,166 --> 00:36:19,336
Okay, good for you.

814
00:36:19,336 --> 00:36:24,796
When you're, yeah, when you're, when
you're 23 years old, when you're 23

815
00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:29,386
years old, you kind of want someone
who's riding a bike and got tattoos.

816
00:36:30,496 --> 00:36:30,736
Yeah.

817
00:36:31,666 --> 00:36:37,066
When you're like 50 me, you might want
someone who's in their mid thirties

818
00:36:38,206 --> 00:36:43,456
with a stable job and occasionally
likes to ride motorcycles, right?

819
00:36:43,456 --> 00:36:48,106
And so I think a lot of our listeners in
the West, they're pretending they're 23,

820
00:36:48,406 --> 00:36:54,496
they want a zelensky, they wanted to cave
hell, maybe they want to let their hair

821
00:36:54,496 --> 00:36:56,836
down and even go out with Xi Jinping.

822
00:36:57,466 --> 00:37:00,166
But the truth is, you're
like 57 year olds old man.

823
00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:01,276
You know?

824
00:37:01,276 --> 00:37:04,006
You don't need someone who's 23
on a motorbike with a tattoo.

825
00:37:04,006 --> 00:37:04,276
You know?

826
00:37:04,276 --> 00:37:05,116
Like, you don't need that.

827
00:37:05,146 --> 00:37:06,466
That's not what you want.

828
00:37:06,466 --> 00:37:11,116
And so I think a lot of our listeners
look at someone like Alban or Starmer,

829
00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:13,576
and they're like boring, you know?

830
00:37:13,576 --> 00:37:16,216
Like, we don't want these
guys, they're there.

831
00:37:16,216 --> 00:37:17,716
There's nothing interesting about them.

832
00:37:17,866 --> 00:37:19,546
And uh, and I think that's a mistake.

833
00:37:19,546 --> 00:37:24,796
Now that said, we're gonna get into some
people right now who I think are as high

834
00:37:24,796 --> 00:37:25,936
as they are because they have vision.

835
00:37:26,686 --> 00:37:26,836
Mm-hmm.

836
00:37:27,316 --> 00:37:27,976
They have, they have vision.

837
00:37:27,976 --> 00:37:31,246
And the problem is, if some of these
leaders don't have vision, well this

838
00:37:31,246 --> 00:37:38,986
next mid thirties, non tattooed,
non motorbike riding, uh, person.

839
00:37:40,051 --> 00:37:42,451
Is is I think does have vision.

840
00:37:42,451 --> 00:37:43,411
And that's Mark Carney.

841
00:37:43,441 --> 00:37:44,461
He's number seven.

842
00:37:44,521 --> 00:37:45,931
He was high on both of our lists.

843
00:37:46,591 --> 00:37:46,681
Mm-hmm.

844
00:37:47,071 --> 00:37:48,451
Uh, I think, you know, I
think that's appropriate.

845
00:37:48,511 --> 00:37:50,971
Top 10 leader, uh, incredible range.

846
00:37:51,001 --> 00:37:56,071
Former central banker who can both talk
to you about the Laffer Curve and all

847
00:37:56,071 --> 00:38:01,471
sorts of other advanced economo metric
concepts, while also shaking your

848
00:38:01,471 --> 00:38:03,181
hand and talking about junior hockey.

849
00:38:03,241 --> 00:38:04,051
'cause he's got it all.

850
00:38:04,051 --> 00:38:04,831
He's got range.

851
00:38:04,831 --> 00:38:10,861
He was the Central Bank governor of both
Canada and the United Kingdom Bank of

852
00:38:10,861 --> 00:38:13,291
England that is, uh, and Bank of Canada.

853
00:38:13,321 --> 00:38:18,451
He also comes from a small town in Canada
and knows how to, uh, please both the

854
00:38:18,451 --> 00:38:21,661
crowds wearing the, uh, the white hats.

855
00:38:21,871 --> 00:38:26,011
Uh, and also, uh, how to please the
crowds, uh, at an investment fund.

856
00:38:26,011 --> 00:38:27,151
So I think it's very interesting.

857
00:38:27,151 --> 00:38:30,991
And again, he is somewhat, that's higher
list because there's a lot of potential.

858
00:38:31,201 --> 00:38:33,871
He's not particularly young,
but he's early in his term.

859
00:38:34,111 --> 00:38:35,461
And there's, uh, more to go.

860
00:38:35,971 --> 00:38:37,231
Next one is Modi.

861
00:38:38,011 --> 00:38:42,091
I do think that it's a little bit
unfair to Lula, who's 34, Modi six.

862
00:38:42,421 --> 00:38:47,101
I do think Modi is better at this point
in his career, but I do think you can

863
00:38:47,101 --> 00:38:49,921
bring up the fact that he's at the end
of his career, you are paying a lot.

864
00:38:50,161 --> 00:38:54,271
Uh, for Modi, he's got another
three years at $50 million a year.

865
00:38:54,361 --> 00:38:55,591
That's kind of player He is.

866
00:38:55,591 --> 00:38:56,086
So, mm-hmm.

867
00:38:56,341 --> 00:38:57,841
Uh, you know, that's kind of a problem.

868
00:38:58,381 --> 00:38:58,651
Alright.

869
00:38:58,711 --> 00:38:59,341
Top five.

870
00:39:00,001 --> 00:39:03,601
Universally loved number
one on Jacob Shapiro's list.

871
00:39:03,781 --> 00:39:07,321
And every single male listener
between the ages of 25 and

872
00:39:07,321 --> 00:39:10,591
40 absolutely loves this guy.

873
00:39:10,621 --> 00:39:19,531
It is naive BU from El Salvador coming
in at number five, the crypto king, the

874
00:39:19,891 --> 00:39:24,871
Bitcoin baller, the guy who has cleaned
up el, by the way, I'm doing this off

875
00:39:24,871 --> 00:39:26,491
the top of my head, so you're welcome.

876
00:39:26,851 --> 00:39:28,651
He has cleaned up El Salvador.

877
00:39:28,681 --> 00:39:30,121
Uh, everybody swears by it.

878
00:39:30,661 --> 00:39:32,461
Uh, I do think he has range.

879
00:39:33,361 --> 00:39:37,291
I think that you would trade for
him even if you were in Canada.

880
00:39:37,531 --> 00:39:41,401
I actually think that he would be able
to run even an OECD economy because he's

881
00:39:41,401 --> 00:39:43,411
got pr, he's got marketing, he's savvy.

882
00:39:43,441 --> 00:39:44,491
He knows how to talk.

883
00:39:44,491 --> 00:39:49,531
He's got charisma, he's got big ideas, big
ideas, and that's useful in any country.

884
00:39:49,591 --> 00:39:50,551
I love this guy.

885
00:39:50,581 --> 00:39:51,541
I love this big.

886
00:39:51,601 --> 00:39:53,641
He was number one on your list.

887
00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:58,261
He was number 13 on my list, but I
flirted with putting him in the top five.

888
00:39:58,771 --> 00:40:01,381
Um, and I think, uh, I put
him too low, quite frankly.

889
00:40:01,381 --> 00:40:02,461
I think he should be top three.

890
00:40:03,091 --> 00:40:03,241
Yeah.

891
00:40:04,081 --> 00:40:04,531
Great pick.

892
00:40:05,551 --> 00:40:06,421
Alright, next one.

893
00:40:06,421 --> 00:40:09,271
Mohamed Bin Zaid, leader
of, uh, the Emirates.

894
00:40:09,601 --> 00:40:10,921
Uh, absolutely crushing it.

895
00:40:10,921 --> 00:40:13,501
The Emirates are not just Dubai,
they're not just about fake islands.

896
00:40:13,501 --> 00:40:17,296
I. Other fake things, by the way,
just we're not gonna mention what,

897
00:40:17,656 --> 00:40:19,216
they're not just about Dubai anymore.

898
00:40:19,396 --> 00:40:20,806
They're a financial capital.

899
00:40:20,806 --> 00:40:23,086
They're uh, actually a manufacturing hub.

900
00:40:23,086 --> 00:40:28,096
If you're flying in an airliner, you're
flying in an airplane whose parts were

901
00:40:28,096 --> 00:40:30,286
partly manufactured in the Emirates.

902
00:40:30,676 --> 00:40:32,686
Uh, the other Emirates are coming up.

903
00:40:32,686 --> 00:40:34,306
It's not just Abu Dhabi and Dubai.

904
00:40:34,306 --> 00:40:36,646
Sharjah is blowing up as well.

905
00:40:36,886 --> 00:40:38,506
Abu Dhabi has become a financial center.

906
00:40:38,506 --> 00:40:39,916
They're doing some incredible things.

907
00:40:39,916 --> 00:40:41,776
Also, did I mention ai?

908
00:40:41,986 --> 00:40:44,416
They're probably gonna be the
earliest adopters of everything.

909
00:40:44,416 --> 00:40:46,336
So, great job of the Emirates.

910
00:40:46,366 --> 00:40:49,276
Uh, also geopolitics done
well on that front as well.

911
00:40:49,756 --> 00:40:53,686
Number three, neighboring Saudi
Arabia, Mohammed bin Salman.

912
00:40:53,806 --> 00:40:56,896
Uh, he's hired this list, not just
because of effectiveness, not just

913
00:40:56,896 --> 00:41:00,766
because of dramatic socioeconomic change
that has gone on in Saudi Arabia, that

914
00:41:00,766 --> 00:41:04,306
I would only compare it to the major
restoration in mid 19th century Japan.

915
00:41:04,336 --> 00:41:08,236
Not just that, but also because of vision.

916
00:41:08,416 --> 00:41:10,306
Yes, some of this vision is too much.

917
00:41:10,396 --> 00:41:14,596
Yes, some of these projects are not
gonna happen, but if 30% of this

918
00:41:14,596 --> 00:41:18,676
vision is actually articulated,
that will be extraordinary.

919
00:41:18,916 --> 00:41:22,906
More than that, I also think Bin
Salama should be number three, because

920
00:41:22,966 --> 00:41:26,026
the reforms that are happening in
Saudi Arabia and the handling of

921
00:41:26,026 --> 00:41:31,396
geopolitics, particularly navigating
the very tricky Israel Iran situation

922
00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:32,776
is not just good for Saudi Arabia.

923
00:41:32,806 --> 00:41:33,946
It's good for the region.

924
00:41:34,576 --> 00:41:39,676
Saudi Arabia has decided to become
a responsible regional power to

925
00:41:39,676 --> 00:41:44,656
reduce its reliance on various
militants and various extremists.

926
00:41:44,656 --> 00:41:47,596
And that is, has just made the
world a better place, quite frankly.

927
00:41:47,896 --> 00:41:49,096
So that's number three.

928
00:41:49,096 --> 00:41:53,446
Obviously everyone's gonna bring up
Khashoggi and what happened, um, with

929
00:41:53,446 --> 00:41:56,401
the death of that journalist, I would
just remind you that the United States

930
00:41:56,401 --> 00:42:03,886
of America, uh, bombed Al Jazeera's,
uh, headquarters in Iraq during the war.

931
00:42:03,886 --> 00:42:07,636
So like, don't talk to us about
killing journalists, although I

932
00:42:07,636 --> 00:42:10,906
obviously think that's terrible, but
that's not what this list is about.

933
00:42:12,256 --> 00:42:14,566
And now, top two, oh, sorry.

934
00:42:14,626 --> 00:42:16,846
Jacob Shapiro: Well, I, we, I can't
believe I'm, I'm really, I, I'm,

935
00:42:17,056 --> 00:42:19,501
I'm really impressed with the moral
equivalency between the United

936
00:42:19,501 --> 00:42:23,326
States bombing Al Jazeera and, uh,
Jamal Khashoggi being literally

937
00:42:23,326 --> 00:42:28,546
dismembered in a consulate, uh,
at MB s's uh, MB S'S request.

938
00:42:28,546 --> 00:42:29,986
I think that was young mbs.

939
00:42:29,986 --> 00:42:32,476
So hopefully he is a little bit
older and he understands that, uh,

940
00:42:32,866 --> 00:42:35,536
taking off the arms and limbs of
the people who disagree with you

941
00:42:35,536 --> 00:42:37,036
is not a good way to stay in power.

942
00:42:37,036 --> 00:42:39,616
Better to lock them in the Ritz-Carlton
and make sure that they give you

943
00:42:39,616 --> 00:42:41,266
billions of dollars in order to get out.

944
00:42:41,626 --> 00:42:44,686
Um, but yeah, I, I can't let
that one go without some comment.

945
00:42:44,686 --> 00:42:45,076
Cousin.

946
00:42:45,466 --> 00:42:45,856
Marko Papic: I'm sorry.

947
00:42:46,156 --> 00:42:46,576
I'm sorry.

948
00:42:46,606 --> 00:42:47,386
I'm sorry, Jacob.

949
00:42:47,386 --> 00:42:50,896
But, uh, you know, like, you,
you should hold countries with

950
00:42:50,926 --> 00:42:54,856
institutional norms and rules to
higher standards, my friend, you know?

951
00:42:54,856 --> 00:42:57,436
So that's, uh, that's, that's
where I sit on that one.

952
00:42:58,411 --> 00:42:58,861
So, yes.

953
00:42:58,891 --> 00:42:59,131
Okay.

954
00:42:59,131 --> 00:43:00,241
Jacob Shapiro: Mr. Ma,
you disagree with that?

955
00:43:02,911 --> 00:43:04,531
Marko Papic: And he was number
three on my list, by the way.

956
00:43:04,531 --> 00:43:05,371
But do you hear me well?

957
00:43:07,231 --> 00:43:07,711
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I got you.

958
00:43:07,771 --> 00:43:09,451
You, you slowed down for a
second, but you're good now 'cause

959
00:43:09,451 --> 00:43:10,381
Marko Papic: it's kind of choppy.

960
00:43:11,941 --> 00:43:12,211
Jacob Shapiro: Hmm.

961
00:43:14,761 --> 00:43:15,121
You there?

962
00:43:15,151 --> 00:43:16,711
It got choppy for a second, but yeah.

963
00:43:16,711 --> 00:43:17,011
I'm good.

964
00:43:17,101 --> 00:43:17,581
I'm here now.

965
00:43:17,581 --> 00:43:18,031
Can you hear me

966
00:43:18,661 --> 00:43:18,871
Marko Papic: okay?

967
00:43:19,051 --> 00:43:20,191
Yeah, I, I hear you now.

968
00:43:20,311 --> 00:43:20,671
Yes.

969
00:43:21,331 --> 00:43:22,021
Jacob Shapiro: Okay, cool.

970
00:43:22,081 --> 00:43:22,321
Marko Papic: Okay,

971
00:43:22,891 --> 00:43:23,191
Jacob Shapiro: I got you.

972
00:43:23,191 --> 00:43:23,401
Marko Papic: Alright.

973
00:43:25,381 --> 00:43:26,401
Top two.

974
00:43:26,551 --> 00:43:26,971
Oh man.

975
00:43:26,971 --> 00:43:27,991
It's, it's choppy again.

976
00:43:28,231 --> 00:43:28,531
Okay.

977
00:43:28,591 --> 00:43:29,341
Hopefully it's good now.

978
00:43:29,371 --> 00:43:29,671
Okay.

979
00:43:30,061 --> 00:43:30,601
Top two.

980
00:43:30,871 --> 00:43:34,681
We got Georgia Maloney from
Italy at number two, and Claudia

981
00:43:34,681 --> 00:43:36,391
Shine Baum at number one.

982
00:43:36,451 --> 00:43:40,711
So number one and two, both women,
both relatively new leaders.

983
00:43:40,921 --> 00:43:44,761
Um, Georgia Maloney, I think,
uh, had a tougher time because

984
00:43:44,761 --> 00:43:49,681
she had to actually wrangle her
own party and win from scratch.

985
00:43:49,681 --> 00:43:53,371
Fratelli Talia were not in power
before Claudia Shaba was kind of

986
00:43:53,371 --> 00:43:55,531
handed the presidency by amlo.

987
00:43:55,531 --> 00:43:59,071
But she has done an admirable job in
negotiations with, of course, the us.

988
00:43:59,461 --> 00:44:03,091
Um, you haven't heard anything about
Mexico over the last four months,

989
00:44:03,331 --> 00:44:04,681
and that is why she's number one.

990
00:44:05,041 --> 00:44:09,571
She's number one because she's somehow
managed to avoid President Trump.

991
00:44:10,141 --> 00:44:13,321
Uh, very tough to be a leader of
Mexico so far from God and so close

992
00:44:13,321 --> 00:44:14,581
to the United States of America.

993
00:44:14,641 --> 00:44:18,811
And, uh, obviously, uh, I think that,
uh, her handling of that situation

994
00:44:18,811 --> 00:44:21,061
has rocketed her to number one.

995
00:44:21,061 --> 00:44:24,031
We'll see though how she, uh, you know.

996
00:44:24,376 --> 00:44:27,106
How they both do, but for the most
part, nobody really complained

997
00:44:27,106 --> 00:44:28,336
about that one, two punch.

998
00:44:28,636 --> 00:44:31,036
Um, and, uh, I think
that we did really well.

999
00:44:32,311 --> 00:44:33,466
I'm on at least the top fight.

1000
00:44:33,466 --> 00:44:33,736
I'm surprised,

1001
00:44:34,306 --> 00:44:36,496
Jacob Shapiro: I'm surprised that
we didn't get more Mexican pushback

1002
00:44:36,496 --> 00:44:38,686
from Shane Baum, but that's sort of
been true of her from the beginning.

1003
00:44:38,686 --> 00:44:42,376
Like, I've done a lot of work on Mexico
this year, and every single person

1004
00:44:42,556 --> 00:44:46,396
I've met doesn't like Shane Baum swears
they didn't vote for Shane Baum says

1005
00:44:46,396 --> 00:44:49,726
she's an awful communist populist who's
gonna take their money and et cetera.

1006
00:44:49,726 --> 00:44:52,396
And yet you look at the approval
rating, she's 80 plus percent.

1007
00:44:52,456 --> 00:44:55,156
Marina got a super
majority in both houses.

1008
00:44:55,486 --> 00:44:57,436
Um, and she seems to be going
from strength to strength.

1009
00:44:57,436 --> 00:44:59,956
And even the ones, like even some
people who would tell you like,

1010
00:44:59,956 --> 00:45:00,976
yeah, I didn't vote for this person.

1011
00:45:00,976 --> 00:45:02,056
I hate this person, blah, blah, blah.

1012
00:45:02,116 --> 00:45:04,306
And the next breath they'll say, yeah,
but she's doing pretty good with the

1013
00:45:04,306 --> 00:45:07,996
United States, or She hasn't been as
bad as I expected, so I I have yet to

1014
00:45:07,996 --> 00:45:10,636
meet a full throated Mirena supporter.

1015
00:45:10,936 --> 00:45:13,366
Uh, it, I'm almost, I almost think
that they don't exist because

1016
00:45:13,366 --> 00:45:15,736
everyone I sort of come across,
uh, doesn't think that way.

1017
00:45:15,916 --> 00:45:18,676
But even the people who are against
Shane Baum, I think are sane.

1018
00:45:18,976 --> 00:45:20,146
She's done a really good job so far.

1019
00:45:20,176 --> 00:45:22,546
Now that said, I think there, there
are two things though, because if

1020
00:45:22,546 --> 00:45:25,636
I was a Mexican and I was listening
to this list and I was anti Shane

1021
00:45:25,636 --> 00:45:27,976
Baum, there were, there were two
things I would really push back on.

1022
00:45:28,246 --> 00:45:30,856
Number one is the cartels
and the security situation.

1023
00:45:30,886 --> 00:45:32,836
And this didn't go very
well for AMLO either.

1024
00:45:33,106 --> 00:45:35,296
And she's got like a
significant problem there.

1025
00:45:35,296 --> 00:45:36,646
And it's, it's not just her problem.

1026
00:45:36,676 --> 00:45:39,946
Like Mexican leaders have had to deal with
this and it's an almost impossible problem

1027
00:45:39,946 --> 00:45:43,966
to deal with, but it's not like she has
fixed that or made big moves in fixing

1028
00:45:43,966 --> 00:45:45,586
that at any point sort of going forward.

1029
00:45:45,586 --> 00:45:48,016
So I think you can favorably
criticize her for that.

1030
00:45:48,346 --> 00:45:49,366
I think also.

1031
00:45:49,681 --> 00:45:54,601
Though, I mean, there's Shane Baum herself
who is a relatively pragmatic politician.

1032
00:45:54,601 --> 00:45:57,481
, and then there's Morena and
what Morena is pushing for.

1033
00:45:57,691 --> 00:46:01,201
And she may be the beginning of a new
single party dictatorship in Mexico.

1034
00:46:01,201 --> 00:46:05,461
And if you are a wealthy Mexican
and thinking about your relationship

1035
00:46:05,461 --> 00:46:09,451
with the Mexican state, you should be
pretty concerned, be pretty concerned

1036
00:46:09,451 --> 00:46:11,131
about the centralization of power.

1037
00:46:11,341 --> 00:46:15,451
And you can see Claudia Shane Baum as,
as the totem of that centralization,

1038
00:46:15,451 --> 00:46:17,221
you should view her as an enemy.

1039
00:46:17,221 --> 00:46:18,421
So I, I think it's actually ironic.

1040
00:46:18,421 --> 00:46:22,501
I think Shane Baum will probably be good
in terms of moderating some of Marina's

1041
00:46:22,501 --> 00:46:25,951
worst instincts and good for a large
majority of the Mexican population.

1042
00:46:26,191 --> 00:46:29,371
But if you're that upper crust of
Mexican society, like you should be a

1043
00:46:29,371 --> 00:46:32,251
little bit afraid of the power that's
being concentrated and in some of

1044
00:46:32,251 --> 00:46:34,231
the things, um, that she has said.

1045
00:46:34,231 --> 00:46:37,411
So we, we didn't get the hate mail that
I was expecting from Mexicans, but I

1046
00:46:37,411 --> 00:46:40,711
know from talking to them like over
the past year that like, there's plenty

1047
00:46:40,711 --> 00:46:42,391
of it and she's not a perfect picker.

1048
00:46:42,391 --> 00:46:44,011
Nobody on this list is gonna be perfect.

1049
00:46:44,011 --> 00:46:45,841
So she was not number one on my list.

1050
00:46:45,841 --> 00:46:48,361
Like she is number one because of,
you know, when you smush our list

1051
00:46:48,361 --> 00:46:49,741
together, she's the one that comes up.

1052
00:46:49,741 --> 00:46:53,251
But even though she was top five for
me, like she does have some words.

1053
00:46:53,251 --> 00:46:54,301
I just wanted to put that out there.

1054
00:46:57,271 --> 00:47:00,091
Marko Papic: Yeah, I think that's
a great defense, uh, Jacob,

1055
00:47:00,116 --> 00:47:01,111
and, and thank you for that.

1056
00:47:01,111 --> 00:47:02,611
I, I, I, I love it.

1057
00:47:02,851 --> 00:47:04,231
And, uh, I think it's a good pick.

1058
00:47:04,231 --> 00:47:09,061
I think what you reveal by focusing on
those points is that she might be this

1059
00:47:09,061 --> 00:47:11,071
high for us because we expected worse.

1060
00:47:12,241 --> 00:47:15,301
And so, you know, I certainly did.

1061
00:47:15,331 --> 00:47:17,671
I thought she would not do
well with President Trump.

1062
00:47:18,316 --> 00:47:22,096
I thought that she would, uh, be far
more normative and moralistic with him.

1063
00:47:22,456 --> 00:47:30,496
And when she, uh, countered his Gulf of
America gimmick with a western Mexican,

1064
00:47:30,496 --> 00:47:34,906
United States of America, whatever he,
whatever she said, that was amazing.

1065
00:47:35,236 --> 00:47:37,066
And I bet you the Donald Trump loved it.

1066
00:47:37,186 --> 00:47:41,386
I think he was in his office sipping
on a diet Coke, going like, wow, wow.

1067
00:47:41,776 --> 00:47:43,336
Like she gets it, you know?

1068
00:47:43,486 --> 00:47:46,816
She gets that this is trolling
and she's trolling back.

1069
00:47:47,176 --> 00:47:51,466
And, uh, you know, I mean, it's a silly
thing to point out, but that won't be over

1070
00:47:51,946 --> 00:47:54,286
when she threw trolling back at Trump.

1071
00:47:54,496 --> 00:47:55,696
That takes confidence.

1072
00:47:56,446 --> 00:47:59,416
That takes, uh, taking yourself
less seriously than some of

1073
00:47:59,416 --> 00:48:00,766
these leaders take themselves.

1074
00:48:00,976 --> 00:48:02,026
That's the world we're in.

1075
00:48:02,446 --> 00:48:03,946
And, uh, I like that.

1076
00:48:04,066 --> 00:48:07,456
I think she, she won me over, but at the
same time, that might mean that we are

1077
00:48:08,026 --> 00:48:10,546
overrated her because we underrated her.

1078
00:48:10,546 --> 00:48:10,966
You know?

1079
00:48:10,966 --> 00:48:15,496
And so that's the fear Now with
Maloney, I just wanna say a couple

1080
00:48:15,496 --> 00:48:20,056
things in defense of Maloney, because
Maloney was my, uh, number one pick.

1081
00:48:20,241 --> 00:48:20,661
Mm-hmm.

1082
00:48:20,746 --> 00:48:24,886
So you had, uh, shine Baum
at number, I think four.

1083
00:48:24,891 --> 00:48:25,101
Five.

1084
00:48:25,451 --> 00:48:25,741
Five.

1085
00:48:25,861 --> 00:48:26,101
I five.

1086
00:48:26,101 --> 00:48:27,316
Jacob Shapiro: And I had Maloney at seven.

1087
00:48:27,526 --> 00:48:27,766
So

1088
00:48:27,936 --> 00:48:28,116
Marko Papic: yeah.

1089
00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:30,096
So you had, uh, I had
Maloney as number one.

1090
00:48:30,096 --> 00:48:32,406
So she ends up being number
one because she was number one.

1091
00:48:32,406 --> 00:48:32,766
My list.

1092
00:48:32,766 --> 00:48:33,666
Number seven, yours.

1093
00:48:33,936 --> 00:48:37,596
Lemme just explain why she's so high in
mine for just an economic performance.

1094
00:48:37,596 --> 00:48:41,496
This is an extraordinary
turnaround for, uh, for Italy.

1095
00:48:42,006 --> 00:48:43,626
Um, Italy is, uh.

1096
00:48:44,736 --> 00:48:50,076
Uh, debt to GDP has come down
from 160, 170% of GDP to 130.

1097
00:48:50,886 --> 00:48:52,296
So huge decline.

1098
00:48:52,296 --> 00:48:54,846
Yes, it's still 130, but give her credit.

1099
00:48:55,236 --> 00:48:59,346
And the deficit, the deficit,
uh, for Italy as percent of

1100
00:48:59,346 --> 00:49:01,986
GDP was in the 12% range.

1101
00:49:02,016 --> 00:49:06,456
Even, uh, right after the, uh,
pandemic, she's gotten it back to 3%.

1102
00:49:06,756 --> 00:49:09,636
I mean, that's an extraordinary
correction in deficit that most Americans

1103
00:49:09,636 --> 00:49:11,826
listening to this would've loved.

1104
00:49:12,306 --> 00:49:14,046
Um, so she's done a really good job.

1105
00:49:14,046 --> 00:49:16,446
By the way, Miata is, uh, out of Greece.

1106
00:49:16,986 --> 00:49:20,706
Uh, the Greek economy is actually,
uh, outperforming the Euro area.

1107
00:49:21,096 --> 00:49:25,596
Uh, Malone is managed to get
Italy to be on par with the Euro

1108
00:49:25,596 --> 00:49:27,996
area, which is extraordinary
'cause Italy has a growth problem.

1109
00:49:28,296 --> 00:49:31,866
But Mitsa in Greece, just a little
defense for him, he's managed

1110
00:49:31,866 --> 00:49:33,426
to, uh, actually outperform.

1111
00:49:33,786 --> 00:49:41,226
And the debt to GDP of Greece has come
down from 210% to 150%, and it now has a

1112
00:49:41,226 --> 00:49:44,616
5% almost, um, positive budget balance.

1113
00:49:44,616 --> 00:49:48,756
So that's extraordinary, uh, extraordinary
performance, uh, by these two leaders.

1114
00:49:48,816 --> 00:49:52,146
Spain, by the way, massively outperforming
the Euro area in terms of growth.

1115
00:49:52,686 --> 00:49:55,626
Uh, debt to GDP is down from
130 to a hundred percent.

1116
00:49:56,391 --> 00:49:58,641
Deficits are down as
well to two point a 5%.

1117
00:49:58,641 --> 00:50:01,911
So all these leaders have managed to,
you know, move their, the Mediterranean

1118
00:50:01,911 --> 00:50:04,881
leadership has gotten really better
in Europe, and I think that's why

1119
00:50:04,881 --> 00:50:06,201
they're, they're high on her lists.

1120
00:50:06,231 --> 00:50:06,501
Okay.

1121
00:50:07,161 --> 00:50:07,971
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I think so too.

1122
00:50:07,996 --> 00:50:09,171
I, I just wanna say about Maloney.

1123
00:50:09,171 --> 00:50:13,161
She's, she's a unicorn on this list,
and she's a unicorn because she is

1124
00:50:13,161 --> 00:50:16,311
this sort of social conservative
leaning right wing, a little bit

1125
00:50:16,311 --> 00:50:20,661
euroskeptic, but has, wants nothing
to do with Vladimir Putin in Russia.

1126
00:50:20,691 --> 00:50:24,591
Like, there is a lot of weird Putin love
in, when you think about Euroskeptic

1127
00:50:24,591 --> 00:50:26,031
circles in the right wing in Europe.

1128
00:50:26,031 --> 00:50:26,751
But her, think about the lap.

1129
00:50:27,111 --> 00:50:27,171
Yeah.

1130
00:50:27,171 --> 00:50:27,741
Not her, but not her.

1131
00:50:27,741 --> 00:50:27,981
No.

1132
00:50:28,221 --> 00:50:30,801
Yeah, she, she's a one of one, like,
I don't know anybody else who could

1133
00:50:30,801 --> 00:50:33,861
replicate the sort of different
ideological things she has put

1134
00:50:33,861 --> 00:50:36,861
together and to dominate Italian
politics the way that she has.

1135
00:50:36,861 --> 00:50:40,491
I mean, I think, I, I forget if, if it's
Italy or some other country has had like

1136
00:50:40,491 --> 00:50:44,151
the most leadership transition since World
War ii, like Italy is either up there,

1137
00:50:44,151 --> 00:50:46,011
number one bad and she's dominating.

1138
00:50:46,521 --> 00:50:46,611
Marko Papic: Yes.

1139
00:50:46,611 --> 00:50:47,236
She, no, listen, so

1140
00:50:47,241 --> 00:50:49,611
Jacob Shapiro: she's, she's
sort of like pingus if, uh, he

1141
00:50:49,611 --> 00:50:50,391
didn't get hurt all the time.

1142
00:50:50,391 --> 00:50:50,916
Marko Papic: Who bad?

1143
00:50:51,321 --> 00:50:52,731
She's Dirk Dubiski, I would say.

1144
00:50:52,731 --> 00:50:53,676
She's, she's like, oh,

1145
00:50:53,841 --> 00:50:53,871
Jacob Shapiro: okay.

1146
00:50:54,201 --> 00:50:54,471
Marko Papic: Yeah.

1147
00:50:54,471 --> 00:50:57,501
The first like tall white dude
from Europe who shoots threes

1148
00:50:57,501 --> 00:50:58,491
that America's ever seen.

1149
00:50:58,491 --> 00:50:59,151
That's who she is.

1150
00:50:59,151 --> 00:51:00,291
We're all shocked by her.

1151
00:51:00,696 --> 00:51:02,796
That's why she deserves
to be in the top five.

1152
00:51:02,796 --> 00:51:04,476
I would definitely take her over Bhel.

1153
00:51:04,506 --> 00:51:04,836
Sorry.

1154
00:51:04,836 --> 00:51:05,766
No, no offense.

1155
00:51:05,826 --> 00:51:07,656
If you're a 25 to 40-year-old male.

1156
00:51:07,656 --> 00:51:09,636
I know you all love Bhel.

1157
00:51:09,876 --> 00:51:10,596
That's cool.

1158
00:51:10,776 --> 00:51:11,406
God bless you.

1159
00:51:11,406 --> 00:51:14,586
But I would take Maloney for president
of any one, prime minister of anything.

1160
00:51:14,826 --> 00:51:16,506
I think she would crush it in Israel.

1161
00:51:16,506 --> 00:51:18,066
I think she would crush it in Ukraine.

1162
00:51:18,306 --> 00:51:19,806
I think she would crush it in Canada.

1163
00:51:19,956 --> 00:51:21,336
I think she would crush it in Syria.

1164
00:51:21,336 --> 00:51:23,046
I think she would crush it in the Congo.

1165
00:51:23,316 --> 00:51:24,996
I think Maloney is a badass.

1166
00:51:24,996 --> 00:51:25,686
And I'll tell you why.

1167
00:51:26,676 --> 00:51:28,896
She's authentic and she
doesn't give a fuck.

1168
00:51:30,156 --> 00:51:30,846
You do you?

1169
00:51:31,326 --> 00:51:31,596
Okay.

1170
00:51:31,836 --> 00:51:33,366
Georgia, you do you Italy.

1171
00:51:34,056 --> 00:51:34,866
Amazing job.

1172
00:51:35,226 --> 00:51:36,156
Amazing job.

1173
00:51:36,366 --> 00:51:37,176
Slow clap.

1174
00:51:37,506 --> 00:51:41,106
Just nothing to say other than
we've got two women on the top.

1175
00:51:41,106 --> 00:51:44,286
And quite frankly, I think both of
them are bad asses and they will crush.

1176
00:51:44,526 --> 00:51:45,966
Crush in any situation.

1177
00:51:46,026 --> 00:51:49,446
Um, now that's, that's the summary.

1178
00:51:49,446 --> 00:51:51,486
That's the amalgamated, that's your list.

1179
00:51:51,516 --> 00:51:53,736
Let's talk about people
now that are not on it.

1180
00:51:54,546 --> 00:51:57,216
Um, and then I wanna talk about
some people that are on it.

1181
00:51:57,336 --> 00:51:57,396
Yeah.

1182
00:51:57,636 --> 00:52:01,026
So I wanna talk about two
people that are not on the list.

1183
00:52:01,086 --> 00:52:02,586
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.

1184
00:52:03,276 --> 00:52:05,526
I wanna ask you why you
don't have them on the list.

1185
00:52:05,856 --> 00:52:06,786
How dare you.

1186
00:52:07,866 --> 00:52:10,926
And then I wanna talk about two people
that are on the list that are your pick.

1187
00:52:10,926 --> 00:52:12,846
So you can, you can ask me to defend mine.

1188
00:52:12,876 --> 00:52:16,416
I just think that you picked two
gentlemen that I have to kind

1189
00:52:16,416 --> 00:52:17,766
of defend for why they're not.

1190
00:52:18,456 --> 00:52:19,986
They were very high up on the list.

1191
00:52:19,986 --> 00:52:24,636
So Zelensky ends up being 17
and Xi Jinping ends up being 21.

1192
00:52:24,636 --> 00:52:26,646
They were very high on
your, uh, your list.

1193
00:52:26,646 --> 00:52:33,581
You had, uh, lemme just see here, Zelensky
in terms of your list was number two was.

1194
00:52:33,581 --> 00:52:33,861
Yeah.

1195
00:52:34,161 --> 00:52:35,706
And Xi Jinping was number six.

1196
00:52:35,706 --> 00:52:39,216
So if you want me to defend some,
we can also do that in that segment.

1197
00:52:39,216 --> 00:52:41,676
But neither one of us had
Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.

1198
00:52:42,216 --> 00:52:45,666
And I think that, um, you know, it's
funny because when I ask a lot of

1199
00:52:45,666 --> 00:52:47,196
people, who would you have in the top?

1200
00:52:47,196 --> 00:52:48,126
A lot of them said Putin.

1201
00:52:48,876 --> 00:52:51,606
Um, and there's a lot of truth in
that and we have to talk about that.

1202
00:52:51,786 --> 00:52:54,456
Um, but neither one had it on.

1203
00:52:54,456 --> 00:52:55,686
So let's start with Vladimir Putin.

1204
00:52:55,686 --> 00:52:57,726
Why is he not on your list of top now?

1205
00:52:57,726 --> 00:52:59,316
44. 44 leaders?

1206
00:52:59,556 --> 00:53:05,856
We would take, we would take
Abbi Ahmed over Vladimir Putin.

1207
00:53:07,026 --> 00:53:08,136
Why you and I?

1208
00:53:08,436 --> 00:53:09,876
Like, what did we do on, what did

1209
00:53:09,876 --> 00:53:10,086
Jacob Shapiro: he do?

1210
00:53:10,086 --> 00:53:10,446
Yeah.

1211
00:53:10,776 --> 00:53:13,206
And I, and we need to spend
some time on Xi Jinping.

1212
00:53:13,206 --> 00:53:15,666
'cause I think I probably
ranked, uh, Zelensky too far

1213
00:53:15,726 --> 00:53:17,076
too high for my own reasons.

1214
00:53:17,076 --> 00:53:19,566
But I, I think Xi Jinping is the one
where we're gonna disagree the most.

1215
00:53:19,566 --> 00:53:24,036
But as, as for Mr. Putin, um, look,
he would've been towards the top of

1216
00:53:24,036 --> 00:53:26,676
this list until he invaded Ukraine.

1217
00:53:27,336 --> 00:53:31,356
And that was such a
big, big unforced error.

1218
00:53:31,386 --> 00:53:37,716
And also I think, showed that he was not
in reality, um, like if you read some

1219
00:53:37,716 --> 00:53:40,866
of the reports around him at that time,
like he had sort of isolated himself.

1220
00:53:40,866 --> 00:53:42,006
He wasn't talking to anybody.

1221
00:53:42,006 --> 00:53:45,966
He was lecturing foreign dignitaries
about like 18th century Russian

1222
00:53:45,966 --> 00:53:48,756
history when they came to visit
over the very, very long table.

1223
00:53:48,756 --> 00:53:50,046
Do we remember that with COVID?

1224
00:53:50,406 --> 00:53:51,246
Very long table.

1225
00:53:51,276 --> 00:53:56,316
I mean, he didn't even tell he was
so nervous to maintain the element of

1226
00:53:56,316 --> 00:53:59,346
surprise that he didn't give his generals
enough information so that they could

1227
00:53:59,346 --> 00:54:01,236
actually plan a military operation.

1228
00:54:01,236 --> 00:54:03,396
That should have been a layup for Russia.

1229
00:54:03,396 --> 00:54:07,086
This is also like, this is something
that he said he had fixed, like part

1230
00:54:07,086 --> 00:54:10,566
of the reason to invade Georgia in 2008
was to test out the Russian military.

1231
00:54:10,746 --> 00:54:14,076
Yes, they crushed Georgia, 'cause
Georgia was puny, but the Russian

1232
00:54:14,076 --> 00:54:15,306
military didn't do very well.

1233
00:54:15,306 --> 00:54:19,536
They had huge problems in coordinating
air and land forces in 2008, and Putin

1234
00:54:19,536 --> 00:54:24,066
was the one who said, we have fixed this,
like we are gonna throw so many, so much

1235
00:54:24,066 --> 00:54:27,576
money into fixing the Russian military
and professionalizing it and modernizing

1236
00:54:27,576 --> 00:54:30,216
it, and Russia is gonna be this modern
country and all these other things.

1237
00:54:30,276 --> 00:54:35,076
And it turns out, no, it's just the
same old Slavic corrupt Saudi Arabia

1238
00:54:35,076 --> 00:54:37,836
with terrible demographics and is
only a great power because they have

1239
00:54:37,836 --> 00:54:39,156
nuclear weapons in the first place.

1240
00:54:39,156 --> 00:54:41,166
I think history will look
back at Vladimir Putin.

1241
00:54:41,166 --> 00:54:44,496
They'll look back at that first
roughly 20 years of his rule as some

1242
00:54:44,496 --> 00:54:49,056
of the most inspired leadership in a
difficult country that we've ever seen.

1243
00:54:49,296 --> 00:54:51,546
But everything that has happened
since he invaded Ukraine, he

1244
00:54:51,546 --> 00:54:52,596
looks like Czar Nicholas ii.

1245
00:54:53,376 --> 00:54:55,716
And, and maybe he'll drag
on for another five years.

1246
00:54:55,716 --> 00:54:57,276
Maybe he'll drag on for another 10 years.

1247
00:54:57,276 --> 00:55:01,266
But he made an existential
mistake, um, in invading Ukraine.

1248
00:55:01,266 --> 00:55:04,566
And also in not being able to do it,
and in believing that he could do it

1249
00:55:04,566 --> 00:55:07,836
and believing his own propaganda that
the Ukrainians would welcome him and

1250
00:55:07,836 --> 00:55:09,126
that he could do the Blitz Greek attack.

1251
00:55:09,126 --> 00:55:12,846
So I think just based on that, he's
off the list entirely because I think

1252
00:55:12,846 --> 00:55:17,616
he sacrificed any future of Russia as
a great power in a multipolar world

1253
00:55:17,826 --> 00:55:21,036
for this fool's errand in Kyiv that
wasn't actually gonna get him anything.

1254
00:55:21,066 --> 00:55:25,536
All Russia will be now because of Mr.
Vladimir Putin is a Chinese gas station.

1255
00:55:25,656 --> 00:55:28,776
Congratulations on your foresight
and leadership, Mr. Putin.

1256
00:55:29,676 --> 00:55:29,796
Marko Papic: Yeah.

1257
00:55:29,796 --> 00:55:32,826
I mean, I think it's even worse than I
second, quite frankly, I think, uh, his

1258
00:55:32,826 --> 00:55:39,006
Nicholas, the first, who, uh, also had
a disastrous war in Crimea and then, uh,

1259
00:55:39,036 --> 00:55:44,586
died or, and or committed suicide because
he was, uh, such a terrible leader.

1260
00:55:44,736 --> 00:55:47,916
Um, Alexander II came
afterwards and was a badass.

1261
00:55:48,366 --> 00:55:53,466
So, what I mean, look, I I, I actually
defended Vladimir Putin more than

1262
00:55:53,466 --> 00:55:59,466
anyone in my circles, from 1999 to
2000, and let's say eight maybe.

1263
00:56:00,036 --> 00:56:00,366
Why?

1264
00:56:00,366 --> 00:56:03,186
Because to understand Vladimir
Putin, you have to understand how

1265
00:56:03,186 --> 00:56:04,596
bad Russia was in the nineties.

1266
00:56:04,596 --> 00:56:04,686
Mm-hmm.

1267
00:56:05,016 --> 00:56:05,766
It was terrible.

1268
00:56:05,916 --> 00:56:07,926
It was a complete and
utter collapse of society.

1269
00:56:08,256 --> 00:56:10,326
And if Vladimir Putin
shows up, he fixes it.

1270
00:56:10,326 --> 00:56:11,676
He fixes 80% of it.

1271
00:56:11,736 --> 00:56:12,546
He really does.

1272
00:56:12,996 --> 00:56:13,626
He fixed it.

1273
00:56:13,626 --> 00:56:14,376
He crushed it.

1274
00:56:14,736 --> 00:56:15,966
He stood up to the west.

1275
00:56:15,966 --> 00:56:18,846
But in a kind of a cool, like,
Hey, I'm a partner, but like,

1276
00:56:18,846 --> 00:56:19,926
yo, you gotta respect us.

1277
00:56:19,926 --> 00:56:20,766
We got our own interests.

1278
00:56:20,766 --> 00:56:21,906
That's all fine and dandy.

1279
00:56:22,491 --> 00:56:24,171
And then, uh, Ukraine.

1280
00:56:24,801 --> 00:56:29,061
There were several pro western kind
of revolts starting 2004, 2005.

1281
00:56:29,061 --> 00:56:30,021
The Orange Revolution.

1282
00:56:30,351 --> 00:56:36,141
Putin handled that masterfully coolly
like, like, like James Bond, you know,

1283
00:56:36,141 --> 00:56:37,911
my name is Putin, Vladimir Putin.

1284
00:56:37,911 --> 00:56:38,631
Like, go ahead.

1285
00:56:38,631 --> 00:56:42,411
You want to be pro western,
uh, you know, Chenko and Tim

1286
00:56:42,531 --> 00:56:44,241
Chenko, you guys go right ahead.

1287
00:56:44,271 --> 00:56:45,021
And what happened?

1288
00:56:45,291 --> 00:56:50,871
They drowned in their own corruption,
feebleness and uh, incompetency.

1289
00:56:51,711 --> 00:56:57,051
And so in 2010, the election
Yanukovich wins Fair and square,

1290
00:56:57,201 --> 00:56:59,181
you know, hashtag great job.

1291
00:56:59,181 --> 00:57:08,601
Paul Manafort, you know, so you've got
Ukraine basically swing back towards

1292
00:57:08,601 --> 00:57:13,371
Russia because Putin was cool, calm, and
collected, and didn't overreact to this

1293
00:57:13,371 --> 00:57:15,621
like kind of flirtation with the West.

1294
00:57:15,621 --> 00:57:19,251
He lets the pro western leaders of
Ukraine do what they do best, which is

1295
00:57:19,251 --> 00:57:24,261
be complete incompetent fools and just
swooped in through a democratic process.

1296
00:57:24,261 --> 00:57:25,071
No problem.

1297
00:57:25,371 --> 00:57:26,601
Nothing bad happened.

1298
00:57:26,661 --> 00:57:31,851
And then in 2014 where there's more pro
western protests, he loses his cool.

1299
00:57:33,141 --> 00:57:35,181
So I don't even think that it's 2022.

1300
00:57:35,181 --> 00:57:35,271
Hmm.

1301
00:57:36,051 --> 00:57:36,686
That's the problem.

1302
00:57:37,251 --> 00:57:39,291
You know, I actually think
it goes back further.

1303
00:57:39,321 --> 00:57:44,331
In 2014, he lost his school because
let's be very clear, if you annex

1304
00:57:44,331 --> 00:57:48,531
and remove Donbas and Crimea.

1305
00:57:49,401 --> 00:57:52,551
Now, of course the Parisian and
her, these, these regions of

1306
00:57:52,551 --> 00:57:54,231
Ukraine that Russia has captured.

1307
00:57:54,441 --> 00:57:57,351
There's actually Russian
ethnic people living there.

1308
00:57:57,411 --> 00:58:00,921
Not just Russian speaking Ukrainians,
but actual ethnic Russians.

1309
00:58:01,761 --> 00:58:04,221
They're actually politically pro-Russian.

1310
00:58:04,521 --> 00:58:07,461
They're actually anti-Western,
the human beings that live there.

1311
00:58:07,881 --> 00:58:10,701
That's your kind of fifth
column inside of Ukraine.

1312
00:58:11,361 --> 00:58:15,831
That's your permanent like
space inside of Ukraine.

1313
00:58:15,831 --> 00:58:20,451
They will always vote for pro-Russian
like foreign policy and so on.

1314
00:58:20,601 --> 00:58:27,831
So by taking it out of Ukraine, you've
created a far more anti-Russian Ukraine.

1315
00:58:27,861 --> 00:58:31,101
You've left the rest of Ukraine
to be a far more sovereign

1316
00:58:31,371 --> 00:58:33,291
and self identifiable country.

1317
00:58:33,291 --> 00:58:36,531
So in other words, not only was
the military invasion a blunder,

1318
00:58:36,531 --> 00:58:38,601
and by the way, I can spend a whole
hour on this, maybe we should.

1319
00:58:39,441 --> 00:58:41,961
'cause there's a whole lot of
folks in the West who think that

1320
00:58:41,961 --> 00:58:43,461
Russia is doing great militarily.

1321
00:58:44,091 --> 00:58:44,691
They're not.

1322
00:58:45,111 --> 00:58:49,491
But not only was the military invasion
a blunder, but the fact that you decide

1323
00:58:49,491 --> 00:58:54,111
to carve up Ukraine is an old goal
because now you've created Ukraine.

1324
00:58:54,171 --> 00:58:57,831
You know, one thing that I will agree
with, uh, Putin and all of our Ukrainian

1325
00:58:57,831 --> 00:59:00,981
listeners will light themselves on
fire and or cancel us, which is fine.

1326
00:59:01,071 --> 00:59:01,521
God bless you.

1327
00:59:02,991 --> 00:59:05,841
The one thing that Vladimir Putin
is right about Ukraine is that

1328
00:59:05,841 --> 00:59:07,401
Ukraine kind of didn't exist.

1329
00:59:08,091 --> 00:59:08,571
Sorry.

1330
00:59:09,381 --> 00:59:10,521
And you know who agrees with me?

1331
00:59:11,391 --> 00:59:13,491
The Sociological Institute of Kiev.

1332
00:59:14,631 --> 00:59:17,001
In other words, there's been a poll that.

1333
00:59:17,556 --> 00:59:20,166
The University of Kyiv has been
running from the nineties where they

1334
00:59:20,166 --> 00:59:22,206
ask Ukrainians, what do you feel like?

1335
00:59:22,626 --> 00:59:25,236
And under 50% of them have felt Ukrainian.

1336
00:59:26,376 --> 00:59:30,606
So Vladimir Putin is right,
right up until he created Ukraine

1337
00:59:31,386 --> 00:59:33,186
and you created identity twice.

1338
00:59:33,516 --> 00:59:39,456
There's a huge jump in self-identification
of Ukrainian people as Ukrainian

1339
00:59:39,696 --> 00:59:42,606
after the 2014 invasion by Russia.

1340
00:59:43,656 --> 00:59:46,836
And then another huge jump in 2022.

1341
00:59:47,586 --> 00:59:51,606
So you know, if I'm a Ukrainian
nationalist, hell, I'm building statues

1342
00:59:51,606 --> 00:59:53,586
to Vladimir Putin all over Ukraine.

1343
00:59:53,856 --> 01:00:00,096
'cause he is probably single most
responsible person for the creation of a

1344
01:00:00,096 --> 01:00:03,036
sovereign free and pro western Ukraine.

1345
01:00:03,036 --> 01:00:04,926
And that you cannot abide.

1346
01:00:04,926 --> 01:00:05,556
And here's why.

1347
01:00:06,036 --> 01:00:08,346
Your point about demographics
of Russia is very important.

1348
01:00:08,346 --> 01:00:11,376
Ukraine, 43 million people at its fullest.

1349
01:00:11,766 --> 01:00:15,846
43 million people who will buy
stuffed in nobody else will.

1350
01:00:16,416 --> 01:00:19,296
You know what we buy from
Russia oil, the rest of us.

1351
01:00:19,446 --> 01:00:22,506
But you know who will buy like
a Russian insurance product or

1352
01:00:22,506 --> 01:00:25,146
a share, or God forbid, a car.

1353
01:00:25,416 --> 01:00:26,376
Ukrainians.

1354
01:00:27,636 --> 01:00:30,096
This was your sphere
of influence, Vladimir.

1355
01:00:30,186 --> 01:00:33,576
This is 43 million people,
which is like a third of Russia.

1356
01:00:33,906 --> 01:00:35,076
Highly educated.

1357
01:00:35,436 --> 01:00:39,246
Pretty wealthy relative to the
rest of Russia, you know, um, with

1358
01:00:39,366 --> 01:00:43,686
similar cultural affinity, similar
thoughts, similar dreams, similar

1359
01:00:43,686 --> 01:00:46,086
tasting music and art and cinema.

1360
01:00:46,266 --> 01:00:50,736
And yes, also willing to buy your crappy
Russia products outside of commodities

1361
01:00:50,736 --> 01:00:52,386
did none of us would ever wanna buy.

1362
01:00:52,596 --> 01:00:54,336
'cause we don't find them cute at all.

1363
01:00:54,696 --> 01:00:56,376
That was Ukraine and you lost it.

1364
01:00:56,376 --> 01:00:59,046
And what you got instead
is West Virginia of Europe.

1365
01:00:59,046 --> 01:01:02,166
No offense to the mountaineers,
West Virginia is fucking awesome.

1366
01:01:02,346 --> 01:01:03,096
God bless you.

1367
01:01:03,246 --> 01:01:06,336
But let's be honest, Don Nets,
it's like coal mines alright.

1368
01:01:06,816 --> 01:01:07,836
Like that's what you got.

1369
01:01:08,676 --> 01:01:10,926
And I think that's an incredible blogger.

1370
01:01:10,956 --> 01:01:14,196
Anyone who advocates for Vladimir
Putin to be on this list is

1371
01:01:14,196 --> 01:01:17,976
straight up, like just high.

1372
01:01:18,621 --> 01:01:19,611
Or five, if it's,

1373
01:01:19,611 --> 01:01:22,611
Jacob Shapiro: if it's pre 2014 or pre
2021, like, I think you can make the

1374
01:01:22,611 --> 01:01:23,811
case that he should be in the top five.

1375
01:01:23,811 --> 01:01:25,221
But I agree with everything,
everything you said.

1376
01:01:25,221 --> 01:01:29,506
He created Ukraine, he enlarged
nato, he forced the best, he best

1377
01:01:29,506 --> 01:01:30,741
and the brightest to flee Russia.

1378
01:01:30,891 --> 01:01:34,911
He like put like, you know, uh, he
put Russia at the behest of China.

1379
01:01:34,911 --> 01:01:36,651
He has like, he just did all
these other different things.

1380
01:01:36,771 --> 01:01:40,671
Marko Papic: He has handedly made me
money and not because I've just, uh,

1381
01:01:40,701 --> 01:01:45,981
done well playing him, but because
my crappy real estate possessions

1382
01:01:45,981 --> 01:01:49,251
in Belgrade, Serbia that I never
thought I would give a shit about.

1383
01:01:49,551 --> 01:01:51,801
Have basically like quadrupled in price.

1384
01:01:51,951 --> 01:01:52,851
Thank you Vladimir.

1385
01:01:53,121 --> 01:02:00,711
Thank you for sending Serbia, a bunch of
Russian IT experts who have to rent crappy

1386
01:02:00,711 --> 01:02:03,141
Soviet departments at egregious prices.

1387
01:02:03,141 --> 01:02:04,941
So well done, well done.

1388
01:02:04,941 --> 01:02:05,931
Slow clap for you,

1389
01:02:06,501 --> 01:02:06,831
Jacob Shapiro: Marco.

1390
01:02:06,831 --> 01:02:09,441
That, that actually reminds me I,
before I forget to ask, I wanted to

1391
01:02:09,441 --> 01:02:13,251
ask you why, why Uch was not on your
list to give the Serbian perspective.

1392
01:02:13,281 --> 01:02:15,531
'cause he's been around for a
while and he's got some cred.

1393
01:02:15,561 --> 01:02:16,911
Why, why did you leave him off?

1394
01:02:17,661 --> 01:02:21,321
Marko Papic: You know, uh, I think I left
him off because there's so much potential.

1395
01:02:21,321 --> 01:02:25,761
First of all, Serbia has one of the,
uh, best performing economies in Europe.

1396
01:02:26,571 --> 01:02:29,781
Uh, the investment into
Serbia is skyrocketing.

1397
01:02:29,811 --> 01:02:30,651
It's incredible.

1398
01:02:31,041 --> 01:02:32,211
Uh, and it's all thanks to him.

1399
01:02:32,841 --> 01:02:37,581
Like straight up, like he has created
geopolitical stability in the country.

1400
01:02:37,941 --> 01:02:41,211
Um, and, uh, you know,
basically good relationship.

1401
01:02:41,241 --> 01:02:43,401
He's one of the best
balancing acts out there.

1402
01:02:43,671 --> 01:02:46,851
The problem is that
domestically, I feel that, uh.

1403
01:02:47,676 --> 01:02:51,486
He had so much potential, and
that hasn't revealed itself.

1404
01:02:51,996 --> 01:02:52,116
Hmm.

1405
01:02:52,116 --> 01:02:55,326
You know, it particularly because he's
facing now these, uh, student protests,

1406
01:02:55,326 --> 01:02:57,486
which are massive against his rule.

1407
01:02:57,756 --> 01:02:59,826
And no, it's not some sort
of foreign interference.

1408
01:02:59,826 --> 01:03:02,526
It's the fact that basically
he's a victim of his own success.

1409
01:03:02,526 --> 01:03:03,516
So let me explain what I mean.

1410
01:03:03,846 --> 01:03:08,856
Serbia is no longer concerned about
security, basic material needs.

1411
01:03:09,276 --> 01:03:13,626
Um, you know, it's, it's a country that
has economic growth, has investment.

1412
01:03:14,076 --> 01:03:15,786
That's all thanks to him, actually.

1413
01:03:16,206 --> 01:03:19,266
But the problem is, once you give
people a taste of that success,

1414
01:03:19,266 --> 01:03:22,506
you have to start delivering on
other things, improving governance,

1415
01:03:22,686 --> 01:03:26,886
improving institutions, and, uh, and
he hasn't, uh, and he hasn't done that.

1416
01:03:27,186 --> 01:03:31,056
You know, the, the level of corruption,
the level of, uh, uh, you know, and not

1417
01:03:31,056 --> 01:03:34,416
all of that is on his back, but he's the
leader and he should have cleaned that up.

1418
01:03:34,416 --> 01:03:35,796
So he's not in the top 30.

1419
01:03:35,826 --> 01:03:38,706
Uh, I mean, I don't think
he's in the bottom 190.

1420
01:03:39,396 --> 01:03:42,336
You know, many, many other leaders are
much worse than Ridge in the world.

1421
01:03:42,336 --> 01:03:44,706
But I do think that he's a
victim of his own success.

1422
01:03:44,886 --> 01:03:49,176
And by the way, I, I defend OT
with, with fellow Serbs because

1423
01:03:49,176 --> 01:03:50,466
there's a lot of criticism of him.

1424
01:03:50,556 --> 01:03:53,586
And I always say like, yes, but
you wouldn't be criticizing him

1425
01:03:53,586 --> 01:03:58,536
for corruption and institutional
incompetence if the country was still in

1426
01:03:58,536 --> 01:04:00,696
sanctions or a pariah state and so on.

1427
01:04:00,936 --> 01:04:04,116
So he's clearly navigated global
geopolitics, perhaps better than

1428
01:04:04,116 --> 01:04:07,356
anyone else, other than, you know,
big countries like India or Malaysia.

1429
01:04:07,386 --> 01:04:08,076
Like, well done.

1430
01:04:08,136 --> 01:04:08,226
Mm-hmm.

1431
01:04:08,586 --> 01:04:10,386
The problem is, once
you've delivered that.

1432
01:04:11,151 --> 01:04:13,551
People's appetites and desires rise.

1433
01:04:13,551 --> 01:04:14,661
And so that's why he's not here.

1434
01:04:14,661 --> 01:04:19,341
But he's definitely, he hasn't done
a huge blunder like Vladimir Putin.

1435
01:04:19,341 --> 01:04:23,901
Vladimir Putin is just, he's the,
the, the largest fall out of anyone.

1436
01:04:23,901 --> 01:04:26,721
If we did this 10 years ago,
Jacob, I agree with you.

1437
01:04:26,871 --> 01:04:28,611
He would've been easily in the top 10.

1438
01:04:28,971 --> 01:04:33,801
He's now not even, I think in the top a
hundred, Vladimir Putin is an absolute

1439
01:04:33,801 --> 01:04:35,871
failure over the past three years.

1440
01:04:36,081 --> 01:04:38,061
I would've defended him in the top five.

1441
01:04:38,241 --> 01:04:42,771
If we did this in 2007, 2008,
2009, 2010, a hundred percent,

1442
01:04:42,771 --> 01:04:43,911
he would've been in my top five.

1443
01:04:44,031 --> 01:04:44,721
He's out of there.

1444
01:04:45,321 --> 01:04:45,621
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah.

1445
01:04:45,621 --> 01:04:46,851
And, and he really squandered.

1446
01:04:46,851 --> 01:04:48,681
I mean, he had everything
going with Ukraine.

1447
01:04:48,681 --> 01:04:50,061
To your point, the way that he wanted.

1448
01:04:50,061 --> 01:04:52,731
He had everything going with the
EU and NATO the way that he wanted.

1449
01:04:52,731 --> 01:04:54,471
He had everything with Russia
going the way that he wanted,

1450
01:04:54,471 --> 01:04:56,421
like cheap energy, the rise of ai.

1451
01:04:56,421 --> 01:04:58,221
Like, can you get people
interested in Russia?

1452
01:04:58,221 --> 01:04:59,991
Like he just kind of squandered.

1453
01:05:00,321 --> 01:05:03,141
Um, it all, to your point about ish,
it sounds like there's not a one-to-one

1454
01:05:03,141 --> 01:05:06,171
player comparison, but he sounds like
Tom Thibodaux, like he's good for getting

1455
01:05:06,171 --> 01:05:07,236
you to a certain point, but he can't.

1456
01:05:07,236 --> 01:05:07,426
Yeah.

1457
01:05:07,566 --> 01:05:08,421
He can't get you above.

1458
01:05:08,451 --> 01:05:08,721
Yes.

1459
01:05:08,721 --> 01:05:09,171
That's a

1460
01:05:09,171 --> 01:05:09,501
Marko Papic: good one.

1461
01:05:09,681 --> 01:05:10,521
That's a good comp.

1462
01:05:10,581 --> 01:05:13,341
Uh, Tom Thito and Che are
a good comp, by the way.

1463
01:05:13,341 --> 01:05:14,031
One other thing, but

1464
01:05:14,181 --> 01:05:14,841
Jacob Shapiro: Oh, yeah, go ahead.

1465
01:05:14,846 --> 01:05:18,921
Marko Papic: If, if I could just
stick with Lair Putin, some of our

1466
01:05:18,921 --> 01:05:22,191
listeners might say, yes, but the
West forced him to invade Ukraine.

1467
01:05:22,521 --> 01:05:23,391
You know, let's say, oh, please, mayor

1468
01:05:23,391 --> 01:05:23,841
Jacob Shapiro: Shimer.

1469
01:05:23,841 --> 01:05:24,561
I hope you're listening,

1470
01:05:25,071 --> 01:05:26,421
Marko Papic: but listen, let's see.

1471
01:05:26,421 --> 01:05:27,441
That's, that's true.

1472
01:05:27,771 --> 01:05:28,791
Let's say that's true.

1473
01:05:28,881 --> 01:05:33,291
You know, my mother always used to say to
me, if, if j if your friend Jacob told you

1474
01:05:33,291 --> 01:05:34,911
to jump through a window, would you do it?

1475
01:05:35,721 --> 01:05:36,111
You know.

1476
01:05:37,101 --> 01:05:38,061
It's like, fine.

1477
01:05:38,121 --> 01:05:42,201
Let's say that America entrap
Russia, God bless America.

1478
01:05:43,041 --> 01:05:45,531
That's what rivals are supposed to do.

1479
01:05:47,241 --> 01:05:51,681
America's not supposed to be nice
to you, Russia for, for God's sakes.

1480
01:05:51,741 --> 01:05:54,651
Of course, the America's trying
to get you to invade Ukraine.

1481
01:05:54,921 --> 01:05:56,181
You don't have to do it.

1482
01:05:57,171 --> 01:05:57,951
And they did it.

1483
01:05:58,161 --> 01:06:02,181
They did it, and they didn't do
it in 2004 and 2005, they let

1484
01:06:02,181 --> 01:06:04,581
Orange Revolution burns itself.

1485
01:06:04,581 --> 01:06:06,051
And you know what would've
happened to Zelensky?

1486
01:06:06,051 --> 01:06:06,981
And we'll get to Zelensky.

1487
01:06:06,981 --> 01:06:08,451
Your your number two pick.

1488
01:06:08,451 --> 01:06:09,501
I'm gonna get after that.

1489
01:06:09,831 --> 01:06:11,901
But you know what would've happened
if Zelensky didn't have a war?

1490
01:06:11,901 --> 01:06:14,361
He would've been the worst
president of Ukraine probably ever.

1491
01:06:15,141 --> 01:06:16,131
He was unpopular.

1492
01:06:16,281 --> 01:06:17,511
He was incompetent.

1493
01:06:17,991 --> 01:06:19,551
He didn't know what the fuck he was doing.

1494
01:06:20,391 --> 01:06:20,901
And then.

1495
01:06:21,591 --> 01:06:26,961
Putin invades instead of letting Ukraine
fall on its sword as it has in the past,

1496
01:06:27,321 --> 01:06:32,121
again, there is nobody, not even zelensky,
more responsible for the success that

1497
01:06:32,121 --> 01:06:34,071
is Ukraine other than Vladimir Putin.

1498
01:06:34,281 --> 01:06:35,631
Well done, my friend.

1499
01:06:35,691 --> 01:06:36,201
Yeah, well done.

1500
01:06:36,201 --> 01:06:36,291
And

1501
01:06:36,291 --> 01:06:38,361
Jacob Shapiro: I, I think we
should talk about Zelensky now too.

1502
01:06:38,361 --> 01:06:39,651
So I'm gonna give a brief defense.

1503
01:06:39,651 --> 01:06:39,652
Okay.

1504
01:06:39,657 --> 01:06:41,151
But I, but, but I do think I'm wrong.

1505
01:06:41,151 --> 01:06:44,661
So, and, and then you can take it after my
brief defense and, and tell me why there's

1506
01:06:44,781 --> 01:06:46,251
he, he doesn't belong on this list.

1507
01:06:46,431 --> 01:06:48,861
I will say two things for, for Mr.

1508
01:06:48,861 --> 01:06:49,401
Zelensky.

1509
01:06:49,731 --> 01:06:53,031
Number one is incredible
courage and bravery.

1510
01:06:53,361 --> 01:06:57,231
What he did when the invasion started
walking around the streets and like giving

1511
01:06:57,231 --> 01:07:01,551
the Ukrainian people a symbol that was not
afraid and unbounded and pushing forward.

1512
01:07:01,851 --> 01:07:03,951
That was like, most
leaders would not do that.

1513
01:07:03,951 --> 01:07:05,331
That took a tremendous amount of courage.

1514
01:07:05,331 --> 01:07:08,241
And most leaders will never reach a
moment in their career or never hope to

1515
01:07:08,241 --> 01:07:10,791
reach a moment in their career where they
have to show off that kind of courage.

1516
01:07:10,791 --> 01:07:11,811
And they either have it or they don't.

1517
01:07:11,901 --> 01:07:14,811
And he has it, like there is
something inside of him that said,

1518
01:07:14,811 --> 01:07:16,401
I will resist, I will push back.

1519
01:07:16,401 --> 01:07:19,341
And it's admirable, and it's probably
why I let myself be blinded a little bit

1520
01:07:19,431 --> 01:07:21,081
and put him at number two on my list.

1521
01:07:21,261 --> 01:07:23,721
The second thing I'll say, though,
and again, this is a situation

1522
01:07:23,721 --> 01:07:26,991
that most leaders don't want to
be in, but when Putin invaded.

1523
01:07:27,021 --> 01:07:31,401
It wasn't just the bravery, it was, he
understood the mistake that Putin made.

1524
01:07:31,491 --> 01:07:32,631
He called him on it.

1525
01:07:32,961 --> 01:07:35,271
He said, okay, fine, let's go.

1526
01:07:35,271 --> 01:07:36,141
You want to do this?

1527
01:07:36,141 --> 01:07:37,161
Like, we're gonna do this.

1528
01:07:37,161 --> 01:07:41,151
You just gave me the way out of
my terrible presidency, and now

1529
01:07:41,301 --> 01:07:44,571
I'm gonna put Ukraine on the
map for the next hundred years.

1530
01:07:44,841 --> 01:07:47,181
And, you know, there have been
fits and starts, and he's done some

1531
01:07:47,181 --> 01:07:48,681
wrong things since the war started.

1532
01:07:48,861 --> 01:07:52,401
But just, you know, as a wartime
president, you can't really

1533
01:07:52,401 --> 01:07:54,861
ask for much of a better record
considering the cards that he held.

1534
01:07:54,861 --> 01:07:56,991
Now, I'm sure you're about to
take him to town for everything

1535
01:07:56,991 --> 01:07:57,921
that happened before that.

1536
01:07:57,921 --> 01:08:00,981
And really, I, the reason I think we
should talk about him is because he's

1537
01:08:00,981 --> 01:08:03,081
a creation of Putin's incompetence.

1538
01:08:03,081 --> 01:08:05,571
He is not himself a leader who
would've scaled the heights and

1539
01:08:05,571 --> 01:08:06,711
done all these things on his own.

1540
01:08:06,711 --> 01:08:10,971
He needed somebody to make such a
monumental error, um, like, you know,

1541
01:08:10,971 --> 01:08:15,471
trading, uh, uh, of, or, you know,
passing on Chris Paul in the draft so

1542
01:08:15,471 --> 01:08:18,561
that we could get Marvin Williams with
the hawks or trading the pick that

1543
01:08:18,561 --> 01:08:20,241
became Luca Dridge to get Trey Young.

1544
01:08:20,301 --> 01:08:24,531
Like, you need that kind of mistake
in order to get a Zelensky figure.

1545
01:08:24,531 --> 01:08:24,563
Oh my God.

1546
01:08:24,568 --> 01:08:26,481
So I know you're gonna take him
down, but, oh, I'm, I'm, but those

1547
01:08:26,481 --> 01:08:27,831
are my two things in his defense.

1548
01:08:28,041 --> 01:08:28,191
Go.

1549
01:08:28,191 --> 01:08:28,611
First of all,

1550
01:08:28,611 --> 01:08:33,201
Marko Papic: first of all, first of
all, every Russia apologist sycophant

1551
01:08:33,201 --> 01:08:35,361
of Vladimir Putin hates me right now.

1552
01:08:35,571 --> 01:08:39,951
And now every liberal westerner is
gonna hate me too, and I love it.

1553
01:08:42,681 --> 01:08:46,851
The only thing, the only thing that
gives my cold, nihilist heart any

1554
01:08:46,851 --> 01:08:48,621
fucking passion, is your hatred.

1555
01:08:48,621 --> 01:08:49,311
So give it to me.

1556
01:08:49,671 --> 01:08:50,751
I couldn't care less.

1557
01:08:51,861 --> 01:08:56,031
So right now everybody who secretly
has a poster of shirtless Putin and

1558
01:08:56,031 --> 01:08:57,411
there are many of you out there.

1559
01:08:57,411 --> 01:09:00,081
I know you, you hate me, right?

1560
01:09:00,591 --> 01:09:03,801
But now you're gonna, everybody else who
reads the Economist and thinks it's a

1561
01:09:03,801 --> 01:09:05,241
great publication is gonna hate me too.

1562
01:09:07,041 --> 01:09:10,071
Do you know what my comp is for Zelensky?

1563
01:09:11,661 --> 01:09:12,561
No, but I can't wait.

1564
01:09:13,101 --> 01:09:13,551
Jacob.

1565
01:09:13,551 --> 01:09:15,051
Jacob, it's Mack McClung.

1566
01:09:18,681 --> 01:09:22,671
You picked Mack McClung as
number two in your draft.

1567
01:09:23,151 --> 01:09:23,481
Yeah.

1568
01:09:23,721 --> 01:09:25,821
You're telling me he's a
great wartime president.

1569
01:09:25,971 --> 01:09:27,741
That's like telling me
he knows how to dunk.

1570
01:09:27,771 --> 01:09:30,381
By the way, if you don't know
this, because you're, I'm sorry.

1571
01:09:30,381 --> 01:09:32,211
We keep using basketball,
we just can't help it.

1572
01:09:32,211 --> 01:09:32,901
We're degenerates.

1573
01:09:32,901 --> 01:09:37,461
But Mac McClung, God bless him, he's
like a five foot 10 white guy who's

1574
01:09:37,461 --> 01:09:40,401
won three dunk contests because
he's a five foot 10 white guy.

1575
01:09:40,671 --> 01:09:42,651
But he doesn't play in the NBA.

1576
01:09:43,311 --> 01:09:45,981
He plays in the development
league 'cause he sucks.

1577
01:09:46,041 --> 01:09:51,801
And being an NBA player, okay, he's not,
he's not actually capable of making one

1578
01:09:51,801 --> 01:09:56,811
of the 30 15 men rosters in the NBA and
that's who you pick for your number two.

1579
01:09:57,771 --> 01:09:59,781
This person is so specialized.

1580
01:09:59,841 --> 01:10:01,491
Yeah, he was a great
wartime, first of all.

1581
01:10:01,491 --> 01:10:03,801
I would, I would argue against that.

1582
01:10:03,801 --> 01:10:05,511
I think he was great
in the first 18 months.

1583
01:10:05,511 --> 01:10:07,131
We did this last time, so
we're not gonna go over it.

1584
01:10:07,131 --> 01:10:10,011
I think he's made some disastrous
moves over the last 18 months.

1585
01:10:10,101 --> 01:10:11,721
I think he's completely lost his space.

1586
01:10:12,021 --> 01:10:18,861
I think he's unrealistic and I think
that, uh, his cost Ukraine lives.

1587
01:10:19,536 --> 01:10:24,036
I think he's caused Ukraine territory
and more than that before the invasion.

1588
01:10:24,066 --> 01:10:28,056
There's a whole slew of things,
including that he got suckered by

1589
01:10:28,056 --> 01:10:32,526
the US into believing he could get a
better deal than the mis minka courts

1590
01:10:32,526 --> 01:10:34,446
that the Europeans negotiated for him.

1591
01:10:34,776 --> 01:10:35,556
Well, guess what?

1592
01:10:36,396 --> 01:10:39,786
Millions of lives later,
20% of territory later.

1593
01:10:39,786 --> 01:10:40,626
How do you like that?

1594
01:10:40,746 --> 01:10:41,466
How do you like them?

1595
01:10:41,466 --> 01:10:41,796
Apple?

1596
01:10:41,796 --> 01:10:45,426
So I think that Zelensky is
going to go down in Ukrainian

1597
01:10:45,426 --> 01:10:46,776
history as a great leader.

1598
01:10:47,706 --> 01:10:49,626
And he deserves that.

1599
01:10:50,286 --> 01:10:53,856
Just like Mack McClung is gonna
go into history as one of the

1600
01:10:53,856 --> 01:10:57,426
best NBA slam dunk champions.

1601
01:10:57,516 --> 01:10:59,166
And he also deserves that.

1602
01:10:59,706 --> 01:11:02,646
And I don't care 'cause it
doesn't make him a great leader.

1603
01:11:03,006 --> 01:11:04,626
So he's not in my top 30.

1604
01:11:06,006 --> 01:11:06,516
Jacob Shapiro: I don't know that.

1605
01:11:06,516 --> 01:11:09,396
I don't know that Ukraine exists if he
isn't there or somebody like him, isn't

1606
01:11:09,396 --> 01:11:09,546
Marko Papic: there?

1607
01:11:09,546 --> 01:11:12,156
So that's the, that's the
other thing I kind of disagree.

1608
01:11:12,486 --> 01:11:17,346
I think a lot of people on their list,
Jacob, have the temerity of Zelensky.

1609
01:11:17,346 --> 01:11:17,976
I think they do.

1610
01:11:18,006 --> 01:11:19,386
Not all of them, I agree.

1611
01:11:19,956 --> 01:11:23,436
But like sitting there and seeing that
he's a great leader because of a personal

1612
01:11:23,436 --> 01:11:30,756
equality that maybe 30% of humans have,
you know, love of your country sacrifice.

1613
01:11:31,146 --> 01:11:35,346
You know, would, I don't know, like
would Georgia Maloney stayed fight?

1614
01:11:35,346 --> 01:11:35,586
Yeah.

1615
01:11:35,586 --> 01:11:35,916
Fuck.

1616
01:11:35,916 --> 01:11:40,236
I think she would've, I think she
would've looked Vladimir Putin straight

1617
01:11:40,236 --> 01:11:41,676
in the eye and said comment, bring it.

1618
01:11:42,066 --> 01:11:43,956
But I think she would've
also known when to quit.

1619
01:11:44,916 --> 01:11:47,436
I think she would've also
known when to fault them.

1620
01:11:48,246 --> 01:11:53,796
When not to invade Russia with
your best troops to get trapped

1621
01:11:53,886 --> 01:11:56,316
and killed for no good reason.

1622
01:11:56,976 --> 01:12:00,816
And so, yeah, I do think that, um,
the Western myth of Zelensky is like,

1623
01:12:00,816 --> 01:12:02,466
oh my God, nobody would've done that.

1624
01:12:03,096 --> 01:12:07,716
That comes out of the Western elites that
they, they truly would not have done it.

1625
01:12:07,746 --> 01:12:12,036
'cause their kids go to private schools
in Bethesda County and you know, they

1626
01:12:12,036 --> 01:12:15,846
are, they've never actually done anything
dangerous in their lives because they

1627
01:12:15,846 --> 01:12:19,326
don't come from a place where you have
to make decisions like that every day.

1628
01:12:19,476 --> 01:12:22,236
I think there's a slew of
leaders out there that do

1629
01:12:22,236 --> 01:12:23,766
come from places like Ukraine.

1630
01:12:24,156 --> 01:12:26,136
I come from one of those
places and yeah, absolutely.

1631
01:12:26,136 --> 01:12:28,056
I don't see that, what
he did in that moment.

1632
01:12:28,776 --> 01:12:30,006
I think it's extraordinary.

1633
01:12:30,066 --> 01:12:32,586
So I don't wanna say it wasn't
extraordinary, but I don't think that it

1634
01:12:32,586 --> 01:12:39,606
was as unique or surprising as I think
it is in a western world where we haven't

1635
01:12:39,606 --> 01:12:42,456
had a serious conflict in 80 years.

1636
01:12:43,056 --> 01:12:45,306
Jacob Shapiro: I think this is great
because you, uh, you, you sent me this

1637
01:12:45,306 --> 01:12:48,246
email, what was it last week or this
week, where you said that I was a humble

1638
01:12:48,246 --> 01:12:51,006
elitist and that you're an arrogant man
of the people and we're getting right to

1639
01:12:51,006 --> 01:12:54,546
this point right here, because I don't
think that many people would do what

1640
01:12:54,546 --> 01:12:56,106
he did and risk their lives to do this.

1641
01:12:56,106 --> 01:12:59,796
And I think the, the Churchill
comparison with Zelensky is overwrought.

1642
01:12:59,796 --> 01:13:02,526
I think we're constantly looking for
the next Churchill because of the myth

1643
01:13:02,526 --> 01:13:03,696
of Churchill and things like that.

1644
01:13:03,756 --> 01:13:04,146
But.

1645
01:13:04,761 --> 01:13:08,271
But there is an element here because
if you read the Manchester biographies

1646
01:13:08,271 --> 01:13:12,051
of Churchill, which are amazing, um,
and you read the opening of the first

1647
01:13:12,051 --> 01:13:17,721
book, he basically does this prologue
that makes, like Churchill is the, is

1648
01:13:17,721 --> 01:13:23,001
the, the antimatter to Hitler that he
has many of the same characteristics.

1649
01:13:23,001 --> 01:13:27,801
He just uses them in favor of liberal
democracy and is willing to do all

1650
01:13:27,801 --> 01:13:31,581
the things and let people die and
all of the, you know, narcissism and

1651
01:13:31,581 --> 01:13:32,781
everything else that comes with it.

1652
01:13:32,991 --> 01:13:36,201
But that when you're in a war
with somebody like of Vladimir

1653
01:13:36,201 --> 01:13:40,221
Putin, like you need that kind of
essential quality to push back.

1654
01:13:40,221 --> 01:13:44,241
And I think in that way, like
Zelensky, like he had that thing.

1655
01:13:44,241 --> 01:13:46,281
And I don't think that most
people have that thing.

1656
01:13:46,281 --> 01:13:49,131
Maybe Maloney, like maybe some of the
top fives on our list have that thing.

1657
01:13:49,131 --> 01:13:51,591
But like, you know, as we're
going down our list, does Anthony

1658
01:13:51,591 --> 01:13:53,241
Albanese have that quality?

1659
01:13:53,541 --> 01:13:56,511
Does uh, you know, I, I'm sure Paul
Kagame does, but like as you're

1660
01:13:56,511 --> 01:13:57,801
going down the list, like, but,

1661
01:13:58,276 --> 01:14:01,611
Marko Papic: but, but this is, but Jacob,
this is why I don't wanna rank him high.

1662
01:14:01,671 --> 01:14:02,931
'cause I come from the third world.

1663
01:14:02,961 --> 01:14:03,861
I come from Serbia.

1664
01:14:04,461 --> 01:14:07,971
I'm Serbian fully except for quarter
German, which makes it even more

1665
01:14:07,971 --> 01:14:09,141
likely that I will have this view.

1666
01:14:09,201 --> 01:14:09,441
Yeah.

1667
01:14:09,921 --> 01:14:15,381
Like when you come from that world,
those situations are not that far off.

1668
01:14:15,381 --> 01:14:18,471
You, you meet them every time
you walk to school as a sixth

1669
01:14:18,471 --> 01:14:20,961
grader, you meet those situations.

1670
01:14:20,961 --> 01:14:23,001
And so that's why two Apol.

1671
01:14:23,006 --> 01:14:25,101
And, and it's funny you
settled on Paul Kagame.

1672
01:14:25,191 --> 01:14:26,571
You were like, well, Paul Kagame has it.

1673
01:14:26,751 --> 01:14:29,421
You know what I, I also
think Abi Ahmed has it.

1674
01:14:29,916 --> 01:14:30,156
Sure.

1675
01:14:30,156 --> 01:14:34,866
You know, I also think Ab Fat
Sii has it, Provo Ibrahim.

1676
01:14:35,046 --> 01:14:38,466
There's a slew of people that
come from the non-Western world

1677
01:14:38,466 --> 01:14:43,026
where there is volatility, there
is conflict, there's pain, there's

1678
01:14:43,026 --> 01:14:44,646
death, and you're surrounded with it.

1679
01:14:45,036 --> 01:14:49,776
And so it isn't as surprising, but
would it be surprising if, you know,

1680
01:14:49,836 --> 01:14:52,776
uh, Liz Truss stayed in Kyiv and fought?

1681
01:14:52,806 --> 01:14:55,656
Yeah, it would've been, it
would've been very surprising.

1682
01:14:56,046 --> 01:15:02,226
And that's why Western journalists
obsess about Zelensky because it makes

1683
01:15:02,406 --> 01:15:07,566
Westerners hearken to an era where
like, men were men and women were women.

1684
01:15:07,836 --> 01:15:13,086
You know, it hearkens back to the idea,
uh, to an era when, of that photograph

1685
01:15:13,086 --> 01:15:19,266
of that, of that Navy, Navy guy kissing
a girl in Times Square as the war ends.

1686
01:15:19,536 --> 01:15:23,766
And so we look at Zelensky, we're like,
oh my God, we haven't had that in decades.

1687
01:15:23,766 --> 01:15:23,916
Yeah.

1688
01:15:23,916 --> 01:15:25,026
But the rest of the world does.

1689
01:15:25,626 --> 01:15:28,566
And so I'm not gonna put him in the top
30, you know, because he stayed and fought

1690
01:15:28,566 --> 01:15:32,256
for his country, because that happens
every day in a lot of places in the world.

1691
01:15:33,921 --> 01:15:36,351
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I'm, I'm,
I'm, I agree with you that he

1692
01:15:36,351 --> 01:15:39,351
should not be in the top 10 and
maybe not even in the top 30.

1693
01:15:39,351 --> 01:15:41,151
I think I overindexed based on that.

1694
01:15:41,421 --> 01:15:44,121
Um, but I, I don't think that we
should, uh, I don't think that we

1695
01:15:44,121 --> 01:15:46,401
should downplay like the extent
to which he was successful.

1696
01:15:46,401 --> 01:15:49,791
I'll turn your point about Serbia around
on you, your, your Serbian friends who

1697
01:15:49,791 --> 01:15:53,841
are saying like, okay, you wouldn't
have these issues if Vch VCI hadn't done

1698
01:15:53,841 --> 01:15:55,431
some basic level of remediation here.

1699
01:15:55,581 --> 01:15:58,221
I don't think there's a Ukraine
if there isn't somebody like

1700
01:15:58,226 --> 01:15:59,631
a Zelensky in power and Kyiv.

1701
01:15:59,631 --> 01:16:03,051
And it's not just the courage and
bravery, it's also like the assessment

1702
01:16:03,081 --> 01:16:05,301
of, no, Putin can't do this.

1703
01:16:05,301 --> 01:16:06,471
Like, I can win this.

1704
01:16:06,471 --> 01:16:08,781
I will push the right
buttons to push back.

1705
01:16:08,781 --> 01:16:12,081
And the Churchill comparison is also
especially apt because Churchill was

1706
01:16:12,081 --> 01:16:15,801
a fucking terrible prime minister as
soon as the war was over, and they

1707
01:16:15,801 --> 01:16:19,821
got rid of him as quickly as possible
as soon as the gun stopped firing.

1708
01:16:19,821 --> 01:16:23,211
And I bet you the Ukrainians will
get rid of him as soon as possible.

1709
01:16:23,211 --> 01:16:26,751
Like, they'll drive him to the airport
and say, go, like, go like Dine Western

1710
01:16:26,751 --> 01:16:28,851
capitals, go make your TV shows again.

1711
01:16:28,851 --> 01:16:32,361
You did your job, but you are not
fit to be a non-war time leader.

1712
01:16:32,781 --> 01:16:34,611
But the problem, but the question
that, the question I wanna ask you

1713
01:16:34,611 --> 01:16:37,371
though is, and this is a really fun
one, is, so I know that neither,

1714
01:16:37,581 --> 01:16:41,271
uh, Putin or Zelensky are on your
list, but on your list, who's higher?

1715
01:16:41,271 --> 01:16:42,771
Would you trade Putin for Zelensky?

1716
01:16:42,771 --> 01:16:44,271
Or would you trade Zelensky for Putin?

1717
01:16:45,111 --> 01:16:45,866
Marko Papic: Yeah, I would think Zelensky.

1718
01:16:47,451 --> 01:16:48,171
Okay, cool.

1719
01:16:49,401 --> 01:16:55,461
I mean, I would take Putin over Zelensky a
hundred times at a hundred times pre 2014.

1720
01:16:56,361 --> 01:16:56,871
Um, of course,

1721
01:16:56,871 --> 01:16:59,061
Jacob Shapiro: but today, but today
you would take Zelensky over Putin.

1722
01:16:59,406 --> 01:16:59,946
Marko Papic: Absolutely.

1723
01:17:00,156 --> 01:17:00,936
Yeah, absolutely.

1724
01:17:01,056 --> 01:17:02,586
Like no, there's no contents.

1725
01:17:02,916 --> 01:17:03,606
No contents.

1726
01:17:04,116 --> 01:17:06,126
Uh, Putin has a lot more to work with.

1727
01:17:06,216 --> 01:17:07,476
He has more resources.

1728
01:17:07,776 --> 01:17:10,896
He is, uh, he's the catalyst.

1729
01:17:11,196 --> 01:17:15,036
He has choice, he has agency
and he's using incorrectly.

1730
01:17:15,186 --> 01:17:18,216
But one thing I will say that if you
are going to compare landscape with

1731
01:17:18,246 --> 01:17:22,746
Churchill, you know, one thing that
I would say is that, first of all,

1732
01:17:22,746 --> 01:17:25,476
Churchill was a terrible military
strategist before World War ii.

1733
01:17:27,486 --> 01:17:29,886
I mean, he's, he's, he's
the reason Gallipoli failed.

1734
01:17:30,996 --> 01:17:33,126
Jacob Shapiro: Uh, go,
go, go check your history.

1735
01:17:33,126 --> 01:17:33,726
My cousin.

1736
01:17:33,841 --> 01:17:35,676
I, I, no, I think he
gets a bad rap for that.

1737
01:17:35,831 --> 01:17:36,121
Okay.

1738
01:17:36,121 --> 01:17:39,216
And he's also responsible for lots of
different advances and things like that.

1739
01:17:39,336 --> 01:17:39,606
So,

1740
01:17:40,086 --> 01:17:40,266
Marko Papic: okay.

1741
01:17:40,266 --> 01:17:40,806
Well, that's fine.

1742
01:17:40,836 --> 01:17:41,676
I mean, yes.

1743
01:17:41,766 --> 01:17:43,326
Technological advancements, yes.

1744
01:17:43,446 --> 01:17:44,316
The tank and so on.

1745
01:17:44,316 --> 01:17:47,796
But what I would say is that in
World War ii, he was really good.

1746
01:17:48,606 --> 01:17:49,356
That's where I was headed.

1747
01:17:50,406 --> 01:17:54,246
I, I think that if you're going to defend
Lansky's track record and say wartime

1748
01:17:54,246 --> 01:17:58,416
president, you can't then ignore the,
the blunders of his strategy as well.

1749
01:17:58,416 --> 01:17:58,506
Mm-hmm.

1750
01:17:59,046 --> 01:18:03,636
And I think that that's where I
think, um, that's why I would probably

1751
01:18:03,636 --> 01:18:08,016
have him top 30 if he had just kept
making the right military moves.

1752
01:18:08,106 --> 01:18:15,456
But he hasn't, the offensive in
2023 was way too, way too, uh,

1753
01:18:15,456 --> 01:18:17,166
aggressive, way too overbuild.

1754
01:18:17,646 --> 01:18:19,356
He didn't know what to start negotiating.

1755
01:18:19,356 --> 01:18:22,116
And then finally, I think the curse
invasion was just unnecessary.

1756
01:18:22,116 --> 01:18:25,386
So I do think that there's a lot
of things that he's also done.

1757
01:18:25,806 --> 01:18:28,026
That don't make sense
on the military level.

1758
01:18:28,026 --> 01:18:28,896
So not just politic.

1759
01:18:29,676 --> 01:18:29,766
Yeah.

1760
01:18:29,766 --> 01:18:29,976
Alright.

1761
01:18:29,976 --> 01:18:30,456
Well, we go to,

1762
01:18:30,456 --> 01:18:33,006
Jacob Shapiro: he, he's, he's, he's
a standup comic, not a general, like,

1763
01:18:33,006 --> 01:18:35,676
Churchill spent his life reading
about strategy and things like

1764
01:18:35,676 --> 01:18:37,296
that, like Zelensky did not like.

1765
01:18:37,296 --> 01:18:38,166
And yeah, so

1766
01:18:38,976 --> 01:18:39,996
Marko Papic: that, that's a,
that's a very good point too.

1767
01:18:39,996 --> 01:18:40,236
Yeah.

1768
01:18:40,386 --> 01:18:43,896
Uh, I think, I think, uh, he has
maximized his potential, just like Mac

1769
01:18:43,896 --> 01:18:48,091
McClung has thus great comp, great comp.

1770
01:18:48,091 --> 01:18:52,986
Um, by the way, your video is frozen
for me, but I hope mine isn't for you.

1771
01:18:52,986 --> 01:18:54,426
So I don't know what's going on, but like

1772
01:18:54,426 --> 01:18:55,206
Jacob Shapiro: No, it's not.

1773
01:18:55,296 --> 01:18:55,746
I'm fine.

1774
01:18:55,836 --> 01:18:57,636
I, and I'm recording here
locally, so we're good.

1775
01:18:57,666 --> 01:18:58,446
I'm sorry I'm frozen.

1776
01:18:58,866 --> 01:18:59,167
Marko Papic: No, no, no.

1777
01:18:59,172 --> 01:18:59,496
It's okay.

1778
01:18:59,676 --> 01:19:02,586
Alright, so we gotta talk
about two, two big ones, right?

1779
01:19:02,646 --> 01:19:06,096
Two big ones, two guys that, uh,
we're gonna keep Trump for the

1780
01:19:06,096 --> 01:19:07,896
end, uh, but let's do Xi Jinping.

1781
01:19:07,926 --> 01:19:10,956
So, you know, like Xi Jinping.

1782
01:19:10,956 --> 01:19:14,016
And by the way, please, uh, bring up
some other ones you wanna discuss.

1783
01:19:14,016 --> 01:19:15,396
But I wanted to talk about Xi Jinping.

1784
01:19:15,576 --> 01:19:18,156
You had him, uh, a very, uh,
very high, you had it six.

1785
01:19:18,396 --> 01:19:19,866
I did not have him in top 30.

1786
01:19:20,226 --> 01:19:23,166
Uh, just like with Vladimir
Putin, I am disappointed, uh,

1787
01:19:23,166 --> 01:19:24,426
in some of his performance.

1788
01:19:24,426 --> 01:19:27,096
I think geopolitically, we
don't have to discuss it.

1789
01:19:27,096 --> 01:19:31,536
I think I, you know, we can probably
agree with a lot of geopolitical moves.

1790
01:19:31,566 --> 01:19:33,006
There's the wolf warrior diplomacy.

1791
01:19:33,006 --> 01:19:37,146
You brought up yourself in the first
part of this series as, as an own goal.

1792
01:19:37,566 --> 01:19:42,276
Uh, I have two issues, which Xi
Jinping, first and foremost, I think

1793
01:19:42,276 --> 01:19:48,726
in 2012 when he ascended to power, he
decided to wake up a sleeping giant,

1794
01:19:48,816 --> 01:19:52,836
a giant that was stuck in the morass
and the sands of the Middle East.

1795
01:19:53,736 --> 01:19:57,366
I think he overly aggressively
pursued some of the national

1796
01:19:57,366 --> 01:19:59,286
security interests of China.

1797
01:19:59,736 --> 01:20:02,886
There is absolutely nothing
that China needs to do.

1798
01:20:02,916 --> 01:20:08,496
There's nothing inherently
necessary in the South China Sea.

1799
01:20:08,496 --> 01:20:13,146
You don't have to start pushing
into the South China Sea in 2012.

1800
01:20:13,446 --> 01:20:14,886
You can wait until 2030.

1801
01:20:15,396 --> 01:20:19,236
Uh, the United States of
America is today 2025.

1802
01:20:19,236 --> 01:20:21,126
It's July 9th, 2025.

1803
01:20:21,126 --> 01:20:25,176
The United States of America is
spending its tax dollars on ensuring

1804
01:20:25,176 --> 01:20:27,186
the security of Chinese oil supply.

1805
01:20:27,576 --> 01:20:29,136
I mean, that's literally
what's happening today.

1806
01:20:29,136 --> 01:20:33,006
The Fifth fleet in Bahrain
is not securing my gasoline.

1807
01:20:33,126 --> 01:20:35,166
It's securing your gasoline Xi Jinping.

1808
01:20:35,166 --> 01:20:38,286
So you have actually not done
anything to improve that situation.

1809
01:20:38,706 --> 01:20:43,176
And by waking up the United States of
America to the assertiveness of China,

1810
01:20:43,506 --> 01:20:49,146
I think that he accelerated the need to
challenge, uh, the United States too soon.

1811
01:20:49,716 --> 01:20:50,736
So that's the first issue.

1812
01:20:50,736 --> 01:20:52,476
I think that was, uh,
that was unnecessary.

1813
01:20:52,476 --> 01:20:57,726
You know, the 2020s could have been the
decade where China wakes up America.

1814
01:20:57,846 --> 01:20:59,496
It didn't have to happen in 2010s.

1815
01:20:59,976 --> 01:21:05,946
Uh, the second thing I would say is
that China wasn't the path towards a lot

1816
01:21:05,946 --> 01:21:07,536
more entrepreneurship and innovation.

1817
01:21:07,596 --> 01:21:09,336
I mean, it has the wallops of it already.

1818
01:21:09,516 --> 01:21:11,886
So it's not like they're,
you know, doing poorly.

1819
01:21:11,886 --> 01:21:15,126
I mean, obviously EVs, uh,
there's a, there's a lot in the

1820
01:21:15,126 --> 01:21:19,026
financial sector where the payment
technology is much better than ours.

1821
01:21:19,371 --> 01:21:20,091
There's biotech.

1822
01:21:20,096 --> 01:21:20,751
Biotech.

1823
01:21:20,961 --> 01:21:22,221
Yes, biotech for sure.

1824
01:21:22,821 --> 01:21:24,861
Uh, so, but that could have been better.

1825
01:21:25,401 --> 01:21:26,931
Why tinker with the model?

1826
01:21:26,931 --> 01:21:27,081
Now?

1827
01:21:27,081 --> 01:21:29,361
Yes, there is income inequality.

1828
01:21:29,361 --> 01:21:31,041
I agree with that a hundred percent.

1829
01:21:31,671 --> 01:21:36,921
But do you improve income inequality by
stifling innovation or do you improve

1830
01:21:36,921 --> 01:21:41,361
income inequality by creating, you know,
things that a communist party should care

1831
01:21:41,361 --> 01:21:46,041
about, like a healthcare system, like
a social security and pension system?

1832
01:21:46,041 --> 01:21:49,461
Those are the things that the state
is failing to provide in China.

1833
01:21:50,361 --> 01:21:55,251
It's, it's not, it's not entrepreneurship
and income inequality of the top.

1834
01:21:55,251 --> 01:21:56,001
That's the problem.

1835
01:21:56,031 --> 01:22:01,161
The problem is that the state
provides very scant, uh, very

1836
01:22:01,161 --> 01:22:03,831
scant social welfare network.

1837
01:22:03,831 --> 01:22:06,351
And that's, by the way, the
root of many problems in China.

1838
01:22:06,351 --> 01:22:09,711
The reason that people buy so many
condos is because they expect to sell

1839
01:22:09,711 --> 01:22:13,131
them so that they can get dentures when
they're older so that they can, you

1840
01:22:13,131 --> 01:22:15,051
know, heal themselves when they're older.

1841
01:22:15,051 --> 01:22:17,301
That's, that's the
imbalance to this economy.

1842
01:22:17,301 --> 01:22:21,561
And quite frankly, this guy's been
in charge for 13 years and he has not

1843
01:22:21,561 --> 01:22:26,631
addressed that social, uh, welfare
state that's actually pretty poor Amer

1844
01:22:26,871 --> 01:22:28,341
uh, America and China in many ways.

1845
01:22:28,341 --> 01:22:28,821
Similar.

1846
01:22:28,821 --> 01:22:32,571
I mean, one of them is that they
don't rebalance income inequality

1847
01:22:32,961 --> 01:22:35,721
and, um, and they don't have.

1848
01:22:36,081 --> 01:22:39,981
The level of government spending on
social welfare state that I think

1849
01:22:39,981 --> 01:22:41,301
an advanced economy would have.

1850
01:22:41,301 --> 01:22:43,851
So, um, I think that's another failure.

1851
01:22:43,851 --> 01:22:45,771
So those are my two
problems with Xi Jinping.

1852
01:22:45,771 --> 01:22:48,951
I think he challenged the
US unnecessarily early.

1853
01:22:49,041 --> 01:22:51,231
Seems like an ego play quite frankly.

1854
01:22:51,231 --> 01:22:52,641
He ascend to power.

1855
01:22:52,791 --> 01:22:57,051
So China must then at that
moment, challenged the us.

1856
01:22:57,081 --> 01:22:58,251
I thought that was unnecessary.

1857
01:22:58,251 --> 01:23:00,951
And then the second thing is,
uh, he and his government have

1858
01:23:00,981 --> 01:23:02,721
talked about social welfare state.

1859
01:23:02,841 --> 01:23:06,801
They understand how important it
is in reducing leverage to condos

1860
01:23:06,801 --> 01:23:10,131
in real estate, but they haven't
actually addressed it significantly.

1861
01:23:11,271 --> 01:23:11,541
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah.

1862
01:23:11,541 --> 01:23:15,651
Uh, you and I disagree on this and
maybe I have rose tinted glasses

1863
01:23:15,651 --> 01:23:16,791
when it comes to Xi Jinping.

1864
01:23:16,791 --> 01:23:18,741
This is the first thing I can
think of as cousins that we like.

1865
01:23:18,741 --> 01:23:20,511
We truly are on opposite sides of this.

1866
01:23:20,901 --> 01:23:22,641
Um, I think you're reading.

1867
01:23:22,986 --> 01:23:26,466
His embrace of Chinese
nationalism in 2012 and 2013.

1868
01:23:26,466 --> 01:23:26,886
Wrong.

1869
01:23:26,976 --> 01:23:30,276
And I think you're underestimating
just how bad the situation was

1870
01:23:30,276 --> 01:23:32,256
in China when he became leader.

1871
01:23:32,616 --> 01:23:36,486
Um, you had, you know, Deng Xiaoping
eventually leaves the scene and then

1872
01:23:36,486 --> 01:23:40,476
you have by consensus these rulers
who are coming in every five years and

1873
01:23:40,476 --> 01:23:44,046
China's becoming fabulously wealthy,
but it's also becoming even more corrupt

1874
01:23:44,316 --> 01:23:46,236
and it's becoming even more unequal.

1875
01:23:46,241 --> 01:23:48,786
And you get to the point where the
factions can't agree on who the next

1876
01:23:48,786 --> 01:23:50,166
consensus candidate is gonna be.

1877
01:23:50,166 --> 01:23:53,346
And they end up on the, the
middling person that everybody

1878
01:23:53,556 --> 01:23:54,696
can agree, okay, fine.

1879
01:23:54,696 --> 01:23:56,676
We'll do that because he doesn't
give me everything that I want.

1880
01:23:56,676 --> 01:23:58,416
And they pick this guy Xi Jinping.

1881
01:23:58,656 --> 01:24:01,866
And I think when Xi Jinping comes
into power, he thinks that something

1882
01:24:01,866 --> 01:24:05,616
is fundamentally broken in China,
and that if he does not fix things,

1883
01:24:06,006 --> 01:24:08,916
this system and the Communist Party
underneath it is going to come apart

1884
01:24:08,916 --> 01:24:12,306
at the seams because the ideological
legitimacy of the party is dead.

1885
01:24:12,816 --> 01:24:13,626
It was all gone.

1886
01:24:13,626 --> 01:24:17,226
It was all these corrupt parties with your
bogie lies and Lamborghinis everywhere,

1887
01:24:17,226 --> 01:24:19,776
and people hanging out in the coast
having great parties and people in

1888
01:24:19,776 --> 01:24:21,726
the interior are less than $2 a day.

1889
01:24:22,026 --> 01:24:23,976
So like the ideology of communism.

1890
01:24:24,471 --> 01:24:29,361
Was dead and he needed to buy some
time to rebuild communism and rebuild

1891
01:24:29,361 --> 01:24:32,151
that sense of, so social equality
in the welfare state that you're

1892
01:24:32,151 --> 01:24:35,751
talking about, uh, while not having
people come at him with a knives.

1893
01:24:35,751 --> 01:24:40,101
So I think he started with this notion
of Chinese nationalism and yes, starts

1894
01:24:40,101 --> 01:24:43,161
playing around with the South China
Sea and Taiwan because communism is

1895
01:24:43,161 --> 01:24:45,021
nothing, it's bankrupt at this point.

1896
01:24:45,231 --> 01:24:48,681
And he needs to give the Chinese
people something other than, Hey, like,

1897
01:24:48,681 --> 01:24:51,141
you know, the preternatural growth
you've had for the last 30 years,

1898
01:24:51,171 --> 01:24:52,761
it's not gonna happen for the next 30.

1899
01:24:52,941 --> 01:24:54,201
We can't deliver that to you.

1900
01:24:54,201 --> 01:24:57,231
So I have to give you, the state
has to give you something else

1901
01:24:57,441 --> 01:25:00,711
rather than the growth that you've
become accustomed to if you're gonna

1902
01:25:00,711 --> 01:25:02,391
continue to believe in the system.

1903
01:25:02,391 --> 01:25:05,811
And by the way, I've got all these
local governments and these military

1904
01:25:05,811 --> 01:25:09,261
guys and these boje lies that are
running around that have way too

1905
01:25:09,261 --> 01:25:11,391
much money and way too much power.

1906
01:25:11,391 --> 01:25:13,941
And if I don't do something
here, we're closer to warring

1907
01:25:13,941 --> 01:25:15,171
states than you might think.

1908
01:25:15,501 --> 01:25:17,781
So I think he takes that
first period of time.

1909
01:25:18,171 --> 01:25:18,651
Um.

1910
01:25:19,176 --> 01:25:24,036
To do that, to purge people, to get rid of
people, to reassert the Chinese Communist

1911
01:25:24,036 --> 01:25:28,026
Party and what it's supposed to stand for
to get people accustomed to the idea that,

1912
01:25:28,086 --> 01:25:31,596
okay, like the last 30 years, the growth
you've seen, it's probably not gonna

1913
01:25:31,596 --> 01:25:33,006
be like that for the next generation.

1914
01:25:33,006 --> 01:25:34,836
I need you to buy into the state.

1915
01:25:35,046 --> 01:25:36,336
I need social stability.

1916
01:25:36,336 --> 01:25:38,826
I need you to think as the state
of the arbiter of equality.

1917
01:25:38,826 --> 01:25:43,236
And also I need you to have national
pride in China as a national project

1918
01:25:43,236 --> 01:25:47,166
because obviously, and ironically
the, you know, communism with Chinese

1919
01:25:47,166 --> 01:25:48,726
characteristics wasn't quite doing it.

1920
01:25:48,846 --> 01:25:50,916
If you go back to Xi Jinping's
early speeches, and he still

1921
01:25:50,916 --> 01:25:52,026
talks, talks like this.

1922
01:25:52,026 --> 01:25:53,706
He, he sounds like Ronald Reagan.

1923
01:25:54,006 --> 01:25:57,996
He talks about supply side reform
and things that belong in like 1980s

1924
01:25:57,996 --> 01:26:01,476
western deregulation narratives that
are coming out of the president of

1925
01:26:01,476 --> 01:26:03,216
China when he's sort of first in power.

1926
01:26:03,396 --> 01:26:03,546
Now.

1927
01:26:03,546 --> 01:26:06,486
I think you're absolutely right
that he went off the rails.

1928
01:26:06,546 --> 01:26:11,646
He, he went too early around 20 18, 19
when he is doing wolf warrior stuff and

1929
01:26:11,646 --> 01:26:13,116
he is got the first Trump presidency.

1930
01:26:13,116 --> 01:26:16,896
I think he overestimated how strong he
was at that particular moment, and I think

1931
01:26:16,896 --> 01:26:20,766
it's actually a good sign of a leader who
recognizes a mistake and walks it back.

1932
01:26:20,856 --> 01:26:22,266
So that's the first thing I would say.

1933
01:26:22,446 --> 01:26:24,036
The second thing I would say is that.

1934
01:26:24,651 --> 01:26:27,741
For all your shade at, uh, thrown at the
Economist, you sound like somebody who

1935
01:26:27,741 --> 01:26:31,671
reads The Economist when you're fetching
about China and its private markets.

1936
01:26:31,881 --> 01:26:34,191
Um, this is exactly the thing
that Xi Jinping diagnosed.

1937
01:26:34,191 --> 01:26:37,701
He's been talking about it since
2015 and he's been trying to do it.

1938
01:26:37,971 --> 01:26:41,841
And doing it in a country like China
with a billion people with a sclerotic

1939
01:26:41,841 --> 01:26:46,011
authoritarian, Marxist communist
system is really fucking hard.

1940
01:26:46,221 --> 01:26:50,001
So that's why he let the real estate
bubble pop because he wants Chinese

1941
01:26:50,001 --> 01:26:51,291
people to do what the Indians are doing.

1942
01:26:51,291 --> 01:26:53,361
He wants them to go put
their money in the market.

1943
01:26:53,361 --> 01:26:56,751
He wants them to trust the market
enough that they will do that rather

1944
01:26:56,751 --> 01:26:58,191
than buying the third or fourth condo.

1945
01:26:58,371 --> 01:27:00,381
And he hasn't been able
to pull it off quite yet.

1946
01:27:00,381 --> 01:27:03,381
He still doesn't have the average
Chinese person trusting the

1947
01:27:03,381 --> 01:27:04,491
market the way that they want.

1948
01:27:04,641 --> 01:27:08,361
But the flip side of this is that he
knows, as Deng Xiaoping knows after

1949
01:27:08,361 --> 01:27:13,041
Tianmen, if you give too much freedom, if
you give too much openness, it will be a

1950
01:27:13,041 --> 01:27:14,961
challenge to the Chinese Communist Party.

1951
01:27:14,961 --> 01:27:19,401
So yes, we need to stimulate innovation
and growth and all these other things,

1952
01:27:19,731 --> 01:27:22,551
but it also needs to be at the behest
of the Chinese Communist Party.

1953
01:27:22,551 --> 01:27:26,301
So that's why in 20, I think it was
21 or was it late 2020, I forget.

1954
01:27:26,451 --> 01:27:28,431
He gets the leaders of
the major China tech.

1955
01:27:28,941 --> 01:27:32,481
Companies like your 10 cents and
Alibabas and says, okay, you guys

1956
01:27:32,481 --> 01:27:35,751
need to make sure that X percent of
your budget is going towards social.

1957
01:27:35,751 --> 01:27:38,961
We welfare in China and devoting money
to things that actually make things

1958
01:27:38,961 --> 01:27:43,011
better for Chinese people and companies
like Tencent said, yes sir, Mr. Emperor.

1959
01:27:43,191 --> 01:27:47,121
And people like Jack Ma said, no sir.
And look what happened to him and

1960
01:27:47,121 --> 01:27:48,561
look at what happened to the ant IPO.

1961
01:27:48,561 --> 01:27:51,921
He had to make an example of them just
as he made an example of Bo and he made

1962
01:27:51,921 --> 01:27:55,521
an example of the real estate market
so that a couple years later he could

1963
01:27:55,521 --> 01:27:58,791
start to loosen the ties and say, okay,
now you understand how serious I am.

1964
01:27:58,971 --> 01:28:01,881
You also understand that the United
States is coming for us in the long run.

1965
01:28:01,881 --> 01:28:04,131
You need to align
yourselves with the state.

1966
01:28:04,161 --> 01:28:07,341
So I think it's unrealistic
to suggest that China's gonna

1967
01:28:07,341 --> 01:28:08,781
replicate what worked in the West.

1968
01:28:09,021 --> 01:28:11,751
They have to have a version of
openness and tech innovation

1969
01:28:11,751 --> 01:28:15,801
that also allows that Communist
party to maintain its power base.

1970
01:28:15,801 --> 01:28:17,181
And maybe it won't work.

1971
01:28:17,181 --> 01:28:19,071
Xi Jinping has not announced a successor.

1972
01:28:19,191 --> 01:28:20,181
He's getting old.

1973
01:28:20,241 --> 01:28:21,141
There's some weird stuff.

1974
01:28:21,141 --> 01:28:22,761
And then like he didn't
come to the Brick Summit.

1975
01:28:22,761 --> 01:28:26,091
Like the biggest risk to him is like,
what if he gets hit by a car tomorrow?

1976
01:28:26,091 --> 01:28:28,971
And there isn't a successor and
he hasn't been able to work out

1977
01:28:28,971 --> 01:28:30,021
some of these things in time.

1978
01:28:30,021 --> 01:28:33,381
But I just think in terms of degree
of difficulty, in terms of vision,

1979
01:28:33,621 --> 01:28:36,771
in terms of the scope and level of
the challenges that he's gone after.

1980
01:28:36,771 --> 01:28:39,201
And he has every single rival he has.

1981
01:28:39,526 --> 01:28:44,416
He has either eliminated or eviscerated
or put in a gulag somewhere, uh, and he is

1982
01:28:44,416 --> 01:28:48,736
hanging on the global stage and people are
thinking better of China, uh, than they

1983
01:28:48,736 --> 01:28:50,236
are in some places of the United States.

1984
01:28:50,236 --> 01:28:53,146
Like all those things together, like
I see a leader who has done a very,

1985
01:28:53,146 --> 01:28:56,656
very good job and who was dealt a very,
very bad hand, um, at the beginning.

1986
01:28:56,776 --> 01:28:58,006
So that's my defense of him.

1987
01:28:58,966 --> 01:29:01,036
Marko Papic: Yeah, I mean, my con
here is that I think you can do

1988
01:29:01,036 --> 01:29:03,406
anti-corruption drive, which I agree with.

1989
01:29:04,036 --> 01:29:05,716
I think that that was correct.

1990
01:29:05,926 --> 01:29:07,696
You know, that was genuine in the West.

1991
01:29:07,696 --> 01:29:11,566
A lot of people thought the Xi Jinping
was just taking out rivals, but it was

1992
01:29:11,566 --> 01:29:13,786
genuinely an anti-corruption drive.

1993
01:29:13,786 --> 01:29:16,576
It wasn't just about the dragons,
it was about the flies as well.

1994
01:29:16,816 --> 01:29:17,116
Right.

1995
01:29:17,116 --> 01:29:19,876
That was the kind of
focus of the government.

1996
01:29:19,876 --> 01:29:22,876
I think it can be successful
without making the other own goals.

1997
01:29:23,446 --> 01:29:27,346
I think where we disagree is that you
see everything as sort of centrally

1998
01:29:27,346 --> 01:29:29,476
about the anti-corruption drive.

1999
01:29:29,476 --> 01:29:33,586
And so you're saying like, look, he needed
to ramp up nationalism in order to also

2000
01:29:34,456 --> 01:29:37,156
pursue something that was good for China.

2001
01:29:37,156 --> 01:29:40,486
So I think we disagree on that
for partly that's just fine.

2002
01:29:40,546 --> 01:29:45,856
But I don't, I I, I agree with you
that in 2012 going after corruption

2003
01:29:45,856 --> 01:29:49,606
in China was, was, uh, extraordinarily
difficult and he has for the

2004
01:29:49,606 --> 01:29:50,986
most part really been successful.

2005
01:29:51,616 --> 01:29:55,576
The part where I disagree also
is, uh, the supply side reforms.

2006
01:29:55,576 --> 01:29:56,806
You said he sounds like Reagan.

2007
01:29:57,346 --> 01:30:00,856
Um, I'm okay with him letting
the real estate bubble pop.

2008
01:30:01,791 --> 01:30:05,661
I'm okay with some of his supply
side reforms that focused on dirty

2009
01:30:05,661 --> 01:30:08,781
industries and sort of antiquated
industries that he's gone after.

2010
01:30:09,201 --> 01:30:12,801
My problem is that when he started
interfering with private business in a

2011
01:30:12,801 --> 01:30:16,371
very haphazard way, so you mentioned,
uh, going after tech entrepreneurs

2012
01:30:16,611 --> 01:30:19,881
fine, telling 10 cents to pay effect
effectively a higher corporate tax

2013
01:30:19,881 --> 01:30:21,801
rate is not what I'm talking about.

2014
01:30:21,861 --> 01:30:24,326
I'm talking about, you
know, Jack Muds appearing.

2015
01:30:24,426 --> 01:30:24,846
Mm-hmm.

2016
01:30:24,931 --> 01:30:28,131
I'm talking about waking up, waking
up on the wrong side of the bed

2017
01:30:28,581 --> 01:30:29,721
and saying like, you know what?

2018
01:30:30,051 --> 01:30:31,881
Computer games are anti-revolutionary.

2019
01:30:32,301 --> 01:30:35,571
Or like waking up on the wrong side
of the bed, ano a different day

2020
01:30:35,571 --> 01:30:40,221
and saying that, you know, tuition
programs, uh, are anti-revolutionary.

2021
01:30:40,251 --> 01:30:43,761
And so it's that kind of like ter
skelter intervention in the private

2022
01:30:43,761 --> 01:30:47,781
sector and in the tech space that's
not very hands off Les Fairish.

2023
01:30:48,201 --> 01:30:51,921
And I think that, um, that's
the one thing where again, he

2024
01:30:51,921 --> 01:30:53,241
didn't really have to do that.

2025
01:30:53,661 --> 01:30:54,411
You can.

2026
01:30:55,461 --> 01:30:57,501
Like, it's just not
necessary, you know, like No,

2027
01:30:57,656 --> 01:31:00,891
Jacob Shapiro: I, I think it, I think
it is necessary if, if you're Xi Jinping

2028
01:31:00,891 --> 01:31:03,831
and you've been dealt the cards that
you have, it absolutely is necessary.

2029
01:31:03,831 --> 01:31:04,131
Yes.

2030
01:31:04,131 --> 01:31:07,941
The video games are counter-revolutionary,
and yes, you don't want the students

2031
01:31:07,941 --> 01:31:10,551
going to the universities to
learn about the rest of the world.

2032
01:31:10,551 --> 01:31:12,051
That's absolutely counter-revolution.

2033
01:31:12,051 --> 01:31:12,141
I know.

2034
01:31:12,146 --> 01:31:14,931
But then China, China gets in
trouble when the emperor doesn't

2035
01:31:14,931 --> 01:31:16,581
have control when the hills are high.

2036
01:31:16,731 --> 01:31:16,822
But yeah.

2037
01:31:16,827 --> 01:31:18,021
And the emperor's far away.

2038
01:31:18,021 --> 01:31:22,131
He needed control, but also needed
to let China still innovate and grow.

2039
01:31:22,131 --> 01:31:23,541
And that's the weirdest thing about China.

2040
01:31:23,721 --> 01:31:28,731
It's become more authoritarian and
yet more creative and more innovative.

2041
01:31:28,971 --> 01:31:31,611
And in our Western language,
that's not supposed to happen.

2042
01:31:31,611 --> 01:31:34,011
He's not supposed to be able to do
the things that you're talking about

2043
01:31:34,011 --> 01:31:35,151
that make us both uncomfortable.

2044
01:31:35,151 --> 01:31:38,301
And yet China goes from strength to
strength when it comes to innovation

2045
01:31:38,301 --> 01:31:39,441
and technological development.

2046
01:31:39,441 --> 01:31:40,296
But I'm not sure that's what's happening.

2047
01:31:40,701 --> 01:31:42,411
Marko Papic: But how do you know that
it's going from strength to strength?

2048
01:31:42,411 --> 01:31:43,611
Like what are we comparing it to?

2049
01:31:43,611 --> 01:31:44,901
I mean, it's a counterfactual.

2050
01:31:45,201 --> 01:31:47,001
Jacob Shapiro: Look, look
at their education system.

2051
01:31:47,001 --> 01:31:48,561
Look at the PhDs that they're minting.

2052
01:31:48,561 --> 01:31:49,851
Look at the patents that they're getting.

2053
01:31:49,851 --> 01:31:52,431
Look at their share of like
biotech startups and all

2054
01:31:52,431 --> 01:31:53,241
these other different things.

2055
01:31:53,271 --> 01:31:53,751
Okay, sure.

2056
01:31:53,751 --> 01:31:56,241
But they're, but they're already
outclassing the United States on

2057
01:31:56,241 --> 01:31:57,321
these things with what they're doing.

2058
01:31:57,891 --> 01:32:00,051
Marko Papic: I know, but like
the economy is clearly sclerotic.

2059
01:32:00,051 --> 01:32:04,191
So like, uh, letting the real
estate, uh, bubble pop has not been

2060
01:32:04,191 --> 01:32:05,691
replicated by another source of growth.

2061
01:32:06,681 --> 01:32:06,981
Right.

2062
01:32:07,011 --> 01:32:11,061
And so that's, that pivot did not happen
because he has stifled the private sector.

2063
01:32:11,556 --> 01:32:15,246
He has stifled consum consumption
and letting the real estate bubble

2064
01:32:15,246 --> 01:32:18,576
pop was then complimented with
very antiquated ways of solving it.

2065
01:32:18,576 --> 01:32:21,186
So in other words, he didn't
listen to Richard coup, he

2066
01:32:21,186 --> 01:32:22,566
didn't offset that decline.

2067
01:32:22,566 --> 01:32:24,126
It's very painful, de-leveraging.

2068
01:32:24,546 --> 01:32:27,696
Um, and some of the ways that you're
defending him suggest that it's like

2069
01:32:27,696 --> 01:32:31,686
good for him, but it's not, I'm not
sure that it's really good for China.

2070
01:32:31,686 --> 01:32:36,396
I'm not sure that China's better
off in 2025 than it would've been

2071
01:32:36,696 --> 01:32:41,076
with somebody who could both be
anti-corruption and semi authoritarian.

2072
01:32:41,076 --> 01:32:42,996
Which, you know, like I
kind of agree with you.

2073
01:32:42,996 --> 01:32:47,916
It is to an extent relevant for China at
this point of development, but at the same

2074
01:32:47,916 --> 01:32:50,166
time could have done other things better,

2075
01:32:50,826 --> 01:32:51,126
Jacob Shapiro: you know?

2076
01:32:51,126 --> 01:32:51,306
Yeah, well

2077
01:32:51,371 --> 01:32:52,836
Marko Papic: I, it's a semantic thing

2078
01:32:52,836 --> 01:32:55,176
Jacob Shapiro: and, but, but I wouldn't
say that he stifled consumption.

2079
01:32:55,176 --> 01:32:59,196
I would say that the problem of multiple
Chinese leaders, including Xi Jinping,

2080
01:32:59,196 --> 01:33:02,526
is that the Chinese pension is not
to consume for exactly the reasons

2081
01:33:02,526 --> 01:33:04,116
you think about political mistrust.

2082
01:33:04,176 --> 01:33:07,476
And you're right that he has not been
able to move them towards consumption.

2083
01:33:07,476 --> 01:33:11,046
I think part of the impulse around
national pride is to buy Chinese.

2084
01:33:11,106 --> 01:33:12,816
Like, I want you guys to consume more.

2085
01:33:12,816 --> 01:33:14,256
I don't want you to just buy condos.

2086
01:33:14,256 --> 01:33:15,576
And he has not been able to do that.

2087
01:33:15,666 --> 01:33:17,676
But I don't think he's stifling
something that was happening.

2088
01:33:17,676 --> 01:33:21,246
He has been trying to, to beat
the dead horse to do the thing

2089
01:33:21,246 --> 01:33:22,656
as have previous Chinese leaders.

2090
01:33:22,656 --> 01:33:24,726
And the Chinese people are just
like, uh, we were, remember

2091
01:33:24,726 --> 01:33:26,376
Mao, why would we do this?

2092
01:33:26,376 --> 01:33:28,686
We're gonna invest in things
that make more sense rather than

2093
01:33:28,686 --> 01:33:29,796
what you want us to invest in.

2094
01:33:29,796 --> 01:33:31,476
And this I think, also is a good, um.

2095
01:33:32,001 --> 01:33:32,871
It's a good comparison.

2096
01:33:32,871 --> 01:33:34,161
'cause let's think of our boy bouquet.

2097
01:33:34,761 --> 01:33:38,541
It's easier to put bouquet as number
one on my list because the scale of

2098
01:33:38,541 --> 01:33:40,371
what he's dealing with is so small.

2099
01:33:40,671 --> 01:33:41,936
Like El salvador's a That's a good point.

2100
01:33:42,056 --> 01:33:43,251
A really, really small country.

2101
01:33:43,401 --> 01:33:44,181
If you put now boule.

2102
01:33:45,261 --> 01:33:45,741
Yeah, yeah.

2103
01:33:45,741 --> 01:33:46,551
With one problem.

2104
01:33:46,701 --> 01:33:51,921
If you put bouquet in charge of China
and he tried to do that, how, how many

2105
01:33:51,921 --> 01:33:55,731
tens of millions would be dead and in
gulags if you tried to do the same thing.

2106
01:33:55,731 --> 01:33:58,071
And Xi Jinping, and this is one
of the things that I think is so

2107
01:33:58,101 --> 01:34:00,801
interesting about him and history
will tell if it's positive or not.

2108
01:34:00,801 --> 01:34:04,461
Remember his father was purged by
Mao in the cultural revolution.

2109
01:34:04,461 --> 01:34:08,991
Like Xi Jinping's childhood was fucked up
precisely because he experienced maoism

2110
01:34:09,051 --> 01:34:14,031
at its height and he envisions himself
as a Mao or Deng xiaoping level leader.

2111
01:34:14,241 --> 01:34:18,801
But one who has to give China that
level of control without the chaos.

2112
01:34:18,801 --> 01:34:22,761
Because if he brings the Maoist
chaos, he will, you know, self-defeat

2113
01:34:22,761 --> 01:34:23,691
everything that he's going.

2114
01:34:23,691 --> 01:34:27,291
So I would be the first to admit
to you that yes, he has errors and

2115
01:34:27,291 --> 01:34:29,661
problems and unforced goals and
all these other different things.

2116
01:34:29,901 --> 01:34:32,571
But again, I, I would just go back
to the scale and the degree of

2117
01:34:32,571 --> 01:34:36,321
difficulty on the problem and what he's
been able to do in advance of that.

2118
01:34:36,321 --> 01:34:38,896
Like that to me, like
gives me like, that's fair.

2119
01:34:38,896 --> 01:34:41,661
Some, like, if, if you put him in
charge of the United States today,

2120
01:34:41,691 --> 01:34:44,151
he'd be like, this is, this is so easy.

2121
01:34:44,241 --> 01:34:44,571
What do you mean?

2122
01:34:44,571 --> 01:34:47,721
I get, I get to do all this stuff and I
don't have to worry about all these other

2123
01:34:47,721 --> 01:34:49,881
things like piece of cake, let's go.

2124
01:34:49,881 --> 01:34:50,871
Like, that's how I see him,

2125
01:34:52,731 --> 01:34:53,061
Marko Papic: I think.

2126
01:34:53,061 --> 01:34:54,411
I think he does deserve a lot of credit.

2127
01:34:54,891 --> 01:34:58,731
For pivoting out of some problems
he created himself, unlike Vladimir

2128
01:34:58,731 --> 01:35:00,171
Putin who likes to triple down.

2129
01:35:01,071 --> 01:35:05,931
So, uh, you know, you mentioned that yes,
he woke up the United States too early,

2130
01:35:06,141 --> 01:35:07,761
but he didn't like triple down on that.

2131
01:35:08,631 --> 01:35:10,071
No, so that's a good point.

2132
01:35:10,071 --> 01:35:13,431
I think he's, uh, pivoted out of the
anti-corruption campaign when needed

2133
01:35:13,701 --> 01:35:15,501
pivoted out of zero COVID when needed.

2134
01:35:16,041 --> 01:35:21,441
He has the ability to calibrate, which
is a huge, huge quality that, um,

2135
01:35:21,891 --> 01:35:26,331
ironically a lot of leaders just don't,
because they become overly ego driven.

2136
01:35:26,421 --> 01:35:29,061
You know, they can't,
they can't change things.

2137
01:35:29,121 --> 01:35:34,641
Uh, so, uh, I think you've convinced
me, I think he deserves a top 30 status.

2138
01:35:34,791 --> 01:35:38,901
You know, I, I will say that, and
certainly, certainly, um, when I left

2139
01:35:38,901 --> 01:35:44,571
him off my list, it wasn't because I
saw him as negative as Vladimir Putin.

2140
01:35:44,571 --> 01:35:47,361
I mean, in my view, Vladimir
Putin is in the bottom to 30%.

2141
01:35:47,961 --> 01:35:52,401
Uh, to me, v you know, Xi Jinping is
somewhere in the top 60, 70, but you

2142
01:35:52,401 --> 01:35:55,491
know, I think you've made a good case
for why he should be in the top 30.

2143
01:35:55,491 --> 01:35:58,401
So that's, that's a very
fa uh, fair defense.

2144
01:35:58,401 --> 01:35:59,781
He ends up, where is he again?

2145
01:35:59,781 --> 01:36:01,521
On our, the updated list?

2146
01:36:02,001 --> 01:36:03,471
He ends up, uh, he's at 21.

2147
01:36:04,011 --> 01:36:04,461
I think.

2148
01:36:04,521 --> 01:36:05,751
I'm, I'm comfortable with that.

2149
01:36:05,751 --> 01:36:07,641
I think, uh, well don't lie.

2150
01:36:08,391 --> 01:36:15,081
And our advanced AI mathematics has put
him at 21st spot after you put him at six.

2151
01:36:15,081 --> 01:36:16,371
And I didn't have him, I think.

2152
01:36:16,371 --> 01:36:17,811
I think that's appropriate.

2153
01:36:18,051 --> 01:36:20,151
Jacob Shapiro: Um, well, and just,
and just last thought on him before we

2154
01:36:20,151 --> 01:36:21,771
move to the, the elephant in the room.

2155
01:36:21,771 --> 01:36:22,521
President Trump.

2156
01:36:22,881 --> 01:36:27,381
Um, like I, I think that Xi Jinping
is also in Vladimir Putin territory.

2157
01:36:27,441 --> 01:36:30,201
Like this is a very, very dangerous
period in his rule because it's

2158
01:36:30,201 --> 01:36:31,401
his interesting third term.

2159
01:36:31,701 --> 01:36:35,511
There's no successor like he's facing,
like the walls are closing in a bit.

2160
01:36:35,511 --> 01:36:38,721
He's facing a United States that is not
just woken up, that is completely woken

2161
01:36:38,721 --> 01:36:40,761
up and is going after China meaningfully.

2162
01:36:40,761 --> 01:36:42,351
It's one of the only bipartisan issues.

2163
01:36:42,681 --> 01:36:45,141
And Xi Jinping has not
announced a successor.

2164
01:36:45,381 --> 01:36:47,991
Like there's, there's a very real
sense, and he could make a strategic

2165
01:36:47,991 --> 01:36:50,691
error tomorrow and he could drop down
this list the way that Putin did.

2166
01:36:50,721 --> 01:36:53,841
Like if Xi Jinping ordered an
invasion of Taiwan, he would

2167
01:36:53,841 --> 01:36:56,031
fall to like 180 on this list.

2168
01:36:56,301 --> 01:37:00,651
If he dies tomorrow of a heart attack
and he has not put in a system for

2169
01:37:00,651 --> 01:37:03,561
picking the next ruler, and you get
factional disagreements and maybe

2170
01:37:03,561 --> 01:37:06,861
even internal fighting in China
about what's comes next, then he gets

2171
01:37:06,861 --> 01:37:08,331
like, put down this list as well.

2172
01:37:08,331 --> 01:37:12,201
So I think he's at a very dangerous moment
where he's been leader for this long.

2173
01:37:12,501 --> 01:37:14,901
Maybe like the Kool-Aid is
starting to go to his head.

2174
01:37:14,901 --> 01:37:16,251
Maybe he's just getting old.

2175
01:37:16,431 --> 01:37:17,181
Who knows?

2176
01:37:17,181 --> 01:37:19,431
Like it's a very precarious
position for him.

2177
01:37:19,461 --> 01:37:22,641
But I do think, like based on
what he's done so far, like he's,

2178
01:37:22,641 --> 01:37:24,801
it's a high degree of difficulty
and, and he is done a good job.

2179
01:37:24,981 --> 01:37:28,281
Marko Papic: The man is spring
chicken, you know what I mean?

2180
01:37:28,281 --> 01:37:29,541
73 years old.

2181
01:37:29,781 --> 01:37:30,291
He is young.

2182
01:37:30,381 --> 01:37:31,521
72 man's.

2183
01:37:31,521 --> 01:37:33,381
72. He just turned 72.

2184
01:37:33,411 --> 01:37:34,191
My God.

2185
01:37:34,791 --> 01:37:35,751
What a world we live in.

2186
01:37:35,901 --> 01:37:38,091
Alright, let's go to the elephant.

2187
01:37:38,331 --> 01:37:39,921
The elephant in the room is Donald Trump.

2188
01:37:40,011 --> 01:37:44,211
Uh, I was shocked by the
surprising, uh, low number of.

2189
01:37:44,946 --> 01:37:47,136
Actually, nobody wrote in
with a problem with that.

2190
01:37:47,556 --> 01:37:51,486
Uh, one, uh, one, uh, listener said
they were surprised that I didn't

2191
01:37:51,486 --> 01:37:55,356
have Donald Trump on the list
because I've defended him on, uh, our

2192
01:37:55,356 --> 01:37:57,156
podcast probably more than you have.

2193
01:37:57,546 --> 01:38:02,256
Um, and so I'll just, I'll just kick
off why I did not put President Trump.

2194
01:38:02,556 --> 01:38:07,416
It's very, very difficult to gauge
the performance of a US president.

2195
01:38:07,476 --> 01:38:10,476
And the reason I say that, I
know to a lot of you, it's very

2196
01:38:10,476 --> 01:38:11,826
easy because you just hate him.

2197
01:38:11,826 --> 01:38:12,606
And that's cool.

2198
01:38:13,146 --> 01:38:14,286
You know, have fun with that.

2199
01:38:14,496 --> 01:38:16,236
We have fun with that or love him.

2200
01:38:16,956 --> 01:38:20,646
Um, but the problem is that the
United States of America is the

2201
01:38:20,646 --> 01:38:21,846
most powerful country in the world.

2202
01:38:22,506 --> 01:38:25,746
Like when we ranked countries,
it's number one, it is really

2203
01:38:25,746 --> 01:38:28,236
difficult to gauge performance.

2204
01:38:28,956 --> 01:38:32,526
And the reason I say that is because
President Trump, you know, he's

2205
01:38:32,526 --> 01:38:36,786
very tough in negotiations and you
get to do that when you are the

2206
01:38:36,786 --> 01:38:37,956
most powerful country in the world.

2207
01:38:38,886 --> 01:38:44,646
So, um, that's why it's very tough
for, for me, with any US president

2208
01:38:44,736 --> 01:38:48,816
to really gauge whether or not
they are doing a very good job.

2209
01:38:49,356 --> 01:38:53,736
Um, the other issue is that I
think that President Trump quite

2210
01:38:53,736 --> 01:38:59,826
often identifies issues like hinge
issues that need to be fixed.

2211
01:39:00,186 --> 01:39:05,616
I think he's very, very good at that, and
I would give him a lot of credit on that.

2212
01:39:06,276 --> 01:39:08,916
But the problem is that
he then uses rhetoric.

2213
01:39:09,426 --> 01:39:13,386
That makes it more difficult to solve
that problem in the domestic political

2214
01:39:13,386 --> 01:39:15,576
context because he's not Xi Jinping.

2215
01:39:15,906 --> 01:39:17,076
He's not Vladimir Putin.

2216
01:39:17,076 --> 01:39:21,216
He doesn't run a country where he can just
use executive orders to change the world.

2217
01:39:21,276 --> 01:39:23,016
He does need to go through Congress.

2218
01:39:23,586 --> 01:39:27,726
And so you are often sitting there and
you're like, wow, you really identified

2219
01:39:27,726 --> 01:39:29,046
an issue that needs to be solved.

2220
01:39:29,256 --> 01:39:30,036
Well done.

2221
01:39:30,576 --> 01:39:32,526
But why did you say it like that?

2222
01:39:32,676 --> 01:39:33,696
That's unnecessary.

2223
01:39:33,696 --> 01:39:37,776
So I think that his governance style
often makes it more difficult for

2224
01:39:37,776 --> 01:39:39,426
him to get things through Congress.

2225
01:39:39,426 --> 01:39:43,206
And by the way, he's got about 12
months left until we got the midterms

2226
01:39:43,326 --> 01:39:45,366
and he loses the house, which he will.

2227
01:39:46,086 --> 01:39:47,556
And at that point, what happens?

2228
01:39:47,556 --> 01:39:49,206
I mean, everything is gonna grind to halt.

2229
01:39:49,206 --> 01:39:50,436
He's not gonna get anything done.

2230
01:39:50,646 --> 01:39:55,536
So for like, to me, immigration reform
is a clear thing that needs to happen.

2231
01:39:56,436 --> 01:39:58,146
That is something that he needs to do.

2232
01:39:58,506 --> 01:40:03,186
I'm not sure if that's gonna happen
given the way that he has gone about

2233
01:40:03,306 --> 01:40:05,556
enforcing immigration policy right now.

2234
01:40:05,766 --> 01:40:11,856
So, uh, I think that his rhetorical, uh,
style is not very conducive to compromise.

2235
01:40:12,246 --> 01:40:15,966
Um, and, and ultimately compromise
is what's needed, even if his end

2236
01:40:15,966 --> 01:40:20,946
goals are far more moderate than
his critics actually accuse him of.

2237
01:40:21,666 --> 01:40:22,866
So those are my two problems.

2238
01:40:22,866 --> 01:40:25,446
I, I don't know how to gauge President
of the United States of America

2239
01:40:25,446 --> 01:40:28,686
who has awesome power before them.

2240
01:40:28,866 --> 01:40:31,806
They can wield incredible power.

2241
01:40:32,076 --> 01:40:35,826
It's difficult to gauge any US
President, not just Donald Trump.

2242
01:40:36,126 --> 01:40:37,896
How, how would Barack Obama.

2243
01:40:38,691 --> 01:40:42,201
Deal with being a president of
El Salvador, you know, how would

2244
01:40:42,201 --> 01:40:46,041
Donald Trump deal with being
the prime minister of Italy?

2245
01:40:46,041 --> 01:40:47,361
How would, how would that work?

2246
01:40:47,991 --> 01:40:48,771
I'm not sure.

2247
01:40:48,981 --> 01:40:54,741
It's difficult to say, and I'm not
sure that his style would work in

2248
01:40:54,741 --> 01:40:57,051
a mid power or another country.

2249
01:40:57,056 --> 01:41:02,271
So if I am, uh, you know, picking the
next leader for Belgium, would I pick

2250
01:41:02,271 --> 01:41:03,831
Donald Trump over Georgia Maloney?

2251
01:41:03,831 --> 01:41:04,791
The answer is just, no.

2252
01:41:05,211 --> 01:41:09,411
No, because I don't know if he can,
if he has the range to be a leader

2253
01:41:09,411 --> 01:41:11,781
of a smaller, less powerful country.

2254
01:41:11,781 --> 01:41:15,261
And then the second thing is, I think
his, his heart, that his brain are often

2255
01:41:15,261 --> 01:41:18,201
in the right place, actually, and this is
where I disagree with most of his critics.

2256
01:41:18,441 --> 01:41:21,531
The problem is that his execution
and the rhetoric leaves a

2257
01:41:21,531 --> 01:41:23,751
lot of things, uh, desired.

2258
01:41:25,101 --> 01:41:25,521
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah.

2259
01:41:25,551 --> 01:41:28,881
So a a few things for me, if I'm
being honest with myself, and if I'm

2260
01:41:28,881 --> 01:41:32,211
looking at my list, um, I feel pretty
comfortable with him not being on

2261
01:41:32,211 --> 01:41:37,701
the list until I start getting down
to like pro boho and Aliev and ce.

2262
01:41:38,691 --> 01:41:41,901
And there's a part of me that says,
you know what, maybe he slots in there

2263
01:41:41,901 --> 01:41:44,841
because everybody above that know I
would trade Trump for in a heartbeat.

2264
01:41:45,141 --> 01:41:48,051
Uh, but you start getting to some of those
lower names on my list, like Paul Kagame.

2265
01:41:48,051 --> 01:41:50,331
I think I'd rather have Donald
Trump as president of the United

2266
01:41:50,331 --> 01:41:52,821
States than Paul Kagame or Abbi
Ahmad or some of these others.

2267
01:41:52,821 --> 01:41:56,001
Like, so, so maybe I need this to be
a little nicer to Trump on the list.

2268
01:41:56,001 --> 01:41:58,341
Marko Papic: But those are,
those are overflow candidates.

2269
01:41:58,341 --> 01:41:59,331
Let's just be very clear.

2270
01:41:59,331 --> 01:42:02,931
Those are 30 to 44, so, you know.

2271
01:42:02,931 --> 01:42:02,991
Yeah.

2272
01:42:02,991 --> 01:42:03,926
So it's, it's, it's.

2273
01:42:04,641 --> 01:42:05,651
Yeah, he's in Downage.

2274
01:42:06,156 --> 01:42:06,436
I agree.

2275
01:42:06,436 --> 01:42:06,676
Yeah.

2276
01:42:07,071 --> 01:42:09,171
Jacob Shapiro: But, um, I, I think
there are four main points that

2277
01:42:09,171 --> 01:42:11,481
I would make for why I, I didn't
have him on my list when I did it.

2278
01:42:11,481 --> 01:42:14,091
The first is, and there might be
some others on this list who are

2279
01:42:14,091 --> 01:42:16,341
guilty of this, but he's guilty
of it more than any of them.

2280
01:42:16,731 --> 01:42:19,071
The dude was born with money
and influence, and that

2281
01:42:19,071 --> 01:42:19,821
makes a big difference.

2282
01:42:19,821 --> 01:42:23,121
Like Xi Jinping, who we, he who we were
just talking about, I mean, he had to

2283
01:42:23,121 --> 01:42:27,621
reli rehabilitate himself in the context
of Maoism to ascend political circles.

2284
01:42:27,621 --> 01:42:29,511
Donald Trump was born with
billions in his mouth.

2285
01:42:29,541 --> 01:42:31,041
He was born with a silver spoon.

2286
01:42:31,311 --> 01:42:34,341
Uh, I could become, I think, a
successful politician if I had

2287
01:42:34,341 --> 01:42:37,221
billions of dollars in my back
pocket, and I think most people could.

2288
01:42:37,221 --> 01:42:39,501
So, like, I think that that
meaningfully like matters.

2289
01:42:39,501 --> 01:42:42,171
And if you're thinking about
politician, like politics is a skill.

2290
01:42:42,321 --> 01:42:44,871
If you've already got the money, if
you don't have to worry about it,

2291
01:42:45,261 --> 01:42:47,061
like it, it makes it easier to do it.

2292
01:42:47,481 --> 01:42:51,801
The second is, and, and you sort
of touched on this, Trump, um, he

2293
01:42:51,801 --> 01:42:53,571
has incredible instincts for power.

2294
01:42:54,051 --> 01:42:58,251
Like he understands power instinctually,
he understands where to put leverage.

2295
01:42:58,266 --> 01:42:59,466
You know, the Mr.

2296
01:42:59,466 --> 01:43:01,626
Dealmaker in chief, all these
other things, like, he's

2297
01:43:01,626 --> 01:43:02,706
very, very good at that.

2298
01:43:02,976 --> 01:43:07,716
He is just as bad at strategy as he
is good at instinctual sense of power.

2299
01:43:08,016 --> 01:43:11,616
If the guy ever cracked open a book
and learned anything, maybe he'd

2300
01:43:11,616 --> 01:43:14,016
be one of the best statesmen of all
time because he is got instincts,

2301
01:43:14,016 --> 01:43:15,816
but he has no sense of strategy.

2302
01:43:16,026 --> 01:43:18,096
He does not think about the future at all.

2303
01:43:18,396 --> 01:43:19,896
Everything is, how does this feel?

2304
01:43:19,896 --> 01:43:20,166
Now?

2305
01:43:20,166 --> 01:43:21,306
What do I think about this now?

2306
01:43:21,306 --> 01:43:22,326
Why is this happening now?

2307
01:43:22,326 --> 01:43:23,076
I'm gonna tweet this.

2308
01:43:23,076 --> 01:43:23,856
I'm gonna think about this.

2309
01:43:23,856 --> 01:43:27,426
It's all raw instincts and it's a source
of some strength for him, but he has

2310
01:43:27,426 --> 01:43:30,966
shown zero capacity to think long term.

2311
01:43:31,026 --> 01:43:33,966
And I don't think you get on this list
if you can't like, you know, open a

2312
01:43:33,966 --> 01:43:37,806
strategy book, or if you can't sit through
a briefing or if pop up pictures in the

2313
01:43:37,806 --> 01:43:39,636
briefing, like, you know, yeah, go ahead.

2314
01:43:39,936 --> 01:43:41,316
Marko Papic: So I, I
know you have two more.

2315
01:43:41,316 --> 01:43:42,066
That's perfectly fine.

2316
01:43:42,066 --> 01:43:45,786
I just wanna piggyback on this and
say, but that's why I say I'm not

2317
01:43:45,786 --> 01:43:49,776
sure he would be good with amid to
your power, like Belgium or Malaysia.

2318
01:43:50,076 --> 01:43:54,576
My, my concern with him is that you get
away with a lot of shit because you're

2319
01:43:54,576 --> 01:43:55,686
the president of United States America.

2320
01:43:55,686 --> 01:44:00,996
If you wanna tweet at somebody, you
know, if you, if you want to tell

2321
01:44:00,996 --> 01:44:04,296
Iran and Israel, they don't know
what the fuck they're doing, you

2322
01:44:04,296 --> 01:44:07,176
get to do that because you're the
president of the United States America.

2323
01:44:07,176 --> 01:44:13,116
So when you say like, he sometimes
this instinctual gut feeling to

2324
01:44:13,116 --> 01:44:15,786
act brashly works in his favor.

2325
01:44:15,966 --> 01:44:17,436
I hundred percent agree with you.

2326
01:44:17,616 --> 01:44:23,256
A lot of the Trump fans say that he is
who he is and that's why he's effective.

2327
01:44:23,616 --> 01:44:24,306
I agree.

2328
01:44:24,936 --> 01:44:25,776
I don't disagree.

2329
01:44:26,466 --> 01:44:29,106
I just don't think it would
work with any other country

2330
01:44:29,106 --> 01:44:30,636
other than the United States.

2331
01:44:30,636 --> 01:44:34,026
Maybe, maybe Russia,
maybe India, maybe China.

2332
01:44:34,056 --> 01:44:38,226
But like, you know, if I'm sitting
here trying to like, pick, trade,

2333
01:44:38,226 --> 01:44:41,316
my leader of South Korea, and
by the way, do they need that?

2334
01:44:41,766 --> 01:44:45,186
You know, if I'm south, if I'm, if I'm
the general manager of South Korea,

2335
01:44:45,186 --> 01:44:47,016
I trying to pick my next leader.

2336
01:44:47,466 --> 01:44:50,796
Like, I just, I can't pick Trump, no way.

2337
01:44:50,826 --> 01:44:55,026
He's gonna say something stupid
and then I don't have 11 aircraft

2338
01:44:55,026 --> 01:44:58,926
carriers with which to say, what,
what are you gonna do about it?

2339
01:44:59,076 --> 01:44:59,436
Yeah.

2340
01:44:59,556 --> 01:45:00,726
My leader called you fat.

2341
01:45:01,476 --> 01:45:02,976
You know, like, you can't,
you just can't do that.

2342
01:45:03,906 --> 01:45:04,296
Go ahead.

2343
01:45:04,476 --> 01:45:04,596
Sorry.

2344
01:45:04,596 --> 01:45:06,456
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, I, I, I, I
think the jury's still out on the,

2345
01:45:06,456 --> 01:45:07,566
on the New South Korean leader.

2346
01:45:07,566 --> 01:45:08,376
We can talk about that later.

2347
01:45:08,736 --> 01:45:11,526
Um, but yeah, I agree with that and
I'll sort of get to that in a second.

2348
01:45:11,676 --> 01:45:15,246
The third thing though, um, and
I, I'm not saying, I hope, I'm

2349
01:45:15,246 --> 01:45:16,326
not saying this pejoratively.

2350
01:45:16,326 --> 01:45:17,916
I think this is just objectively true.

2351
01:45:18,126 --> 01:45:21,666
I mean, we, we went, after Benjamin
Nacho met, we went after Benjamin

2352
01:45:21,666 --> 01:45:25,836
Netanyahu for this, Trump is all
vanity and all narcissism, and he's

2353
01:45:25,836 --> 01:45:27,456
using the office to enrich himself.

2354
01:45:27,486 --> 01:45:29,646
Look at all these crypto
projects that he's announcing.

2355
01:45:29,886 --> 01:45:34,626
Like he fundamentally does not
give a crap about anyone but

2356
01:45:34,626 --> 01:45:36,516
himself and the Trump name.

2357
01:45:36,756 --> 01:45:38,196
Well, wait a minute.

2358
01:45:38,196 --> 01:45:38,199
Wait a minute.

2359
01:45:38,204 --> 01:45:38,376
No.

2360
01:45:38,436 --> 01:45:38,916
Wait a minute.

2361
01:45:38,916 --> 01:45:39,036
Shake.

2362
01:45:39,096 --> 01:45:39,366
Okay.

2363
01:45:39,366 --> 01:45:40,086
You wanna defend him?

2364
01:45:40,086 --> 01:45:40,326
Fine.

2365
01:45:40,326 --> 01:45:43,086
I think, I think it's fairly clear
that that's, that, that's true.

2366
01:45:43,086 --> 01:45:43,206
Please.

2367
01:45:43,206 --> 01:45:43,506
I'll just,

2368
01:45:44,226 --> 01:45:47,226
Marko Papic: I will just throw
back at you what you said to me

2369
01:45:47,526 --> 01:45:49,296
when I accused Lola being corrupt.

2370
01:45:49,566 --> 01:45:50,856
Aren't they all corrupt?

2371
01:45:50,856 --> 01:45:51,396
Jacob?

2372
01:45:52,956 --> 01:45:53,256
Jacob Shapiro: Uh.

2373
01:45:53,646 --> 01:45:54,426
They are all corrupt.

2374
01:45:54,426 --> 01:45:55,476
But I didn't say that.

2375
01:45:55,536 --> 01:45:56,586
Yes, they're all corrupt.

2376
01:45:56,586 --> 01:45:58,806
But I didn't go at, I didn't
go at him for being corrupt.

2377
01:45:58,806 --> 01:46:01,296
I went at him for being
vain and narcissistic.

2378
01:46:01,326 --> 01:46:04,266
I think there is no part of him that
actually cares about the nation.

2379
01:46:04,656 --> 01:46:05,826
I think it's all Trump.

2380
01:46:05,826 --> 01:46:06,426
Trump, Trump.

2381
01:46:06,426 --> 01:46:09,636
He would, he would change it to the United
States of Trump if he possibly could.

2382
01:46:09,636 --> 01:46:11,526
Lula corrupt all these
other different things.

2383
01:46:11,706 --> 01:46:15,456
Cares deeply about Brazil and the
future of Brazil, and has hitched

2384
01:46:15,456 --> 01:46:19,296
his wagon and his changes to Brazil
rising up and being this Trump.

2385
01:46:19,296 --> 01:46:19,836
No way.

2386
01:46:20,106 --> 01:46:22,986
Like all this stuff with the crypto
coins and the Trump tokens, and I'm

2387
01:46:22,986 --> 01:46:25,836
having the dinners and I'm not gonna
put my assets in a blind trust like

2388
01:46:25,836 --> 01:46:27,426
every single other president before me.

2389
01:46:27,426 --> 01:46:28,716
It's all about enriching.

2390
01:46:28,716 --> 01:46:31,746
I wanna build Trump Tower and
Gaza and Trump Tower and Serbia.

2391
01:46:32,021 --> 01:46:32,551
Like, come on.

2392
01:46:32,551 --> 01:46:32,671
But

2393
01:46:32,671 --> 01:46:34,446
Marko Papic: can't you, well, first
of all, Trump Tower in Serbia will

2394
01:46:34,446 --> 01:46:37,596
be amazing because I'm sure it's
gonna be built on the burnt out,

2395
01:46:38,286 --> 01:46:40,416
uh, husk of the defense ministry.

2396
01:46:40,416 --> 01:46:41,556
So that needs to happen.

2397
01:46:41,856 --> 01:46:43,986
Please, Jared, don't back out of that.

2398
01:46:44,466 --> 01:46:45,276
Please build it.

2399
01:46:45,546 --> 01:46:49,716
But look, what I would say to you
is, uh, on that point, I don't

2400
01:46:49,716 --> 01:46:54,756
know if it's exclusive, can you
be narcissistic in vain and also

2401
01:46:56,946 --> 01:47:00,846
think at least that what you're doing is
in interest of the United States America?

2402
01:47:01,806 --> 01:47:03,036
Jacob Shapiro: You can,
I don't think that's him.

2403
01:47:03,186 --> 01:47:04,956
I think that was, I think that was LBJ.

2404
01:47:05,406 --> 01:47:08,646
I don't think that's Trump, when I,
what I'm saying is I really don't think

2405
01:47:08,646 --> 01:47:09,996
he gives a shit about this country.

2406
01:47:10,566 --> 01:47:10,776
Marko Papic: Hmm.

2407
01:47:11,526 --> 01:47:13,806
Jacob Shapiro: I don't think he gives a
shit about the community that he's in.

2408
01:47:13,806 --> 01:47:15,396
I think he gives a shit about himself.

2409
01:47:16,596 --> 01:47:17,481
Marko Papic: I think on some level.

2410
01:47:18,201 --> 01:47:20,751
Jacob Shapiro: That to me just
like disqualifies him from the list

2411
01:47:20,751 --> 01:47:23,811
because everybody on this list, even
the Netanyahu's, have some sense

2412
01:47:24,111 --> 01:47:25,341
of their country's national future.

2413
01:47:25,341 --> 01:47:27,321
And this goes back to the
instinctual comment that I made.

2414
01:47:27,321 --> 01:47:29,061
I don't think he thinks long term.

2415
01:47:29,301 --> 01:47:30,981
I don't think he thinks strategically.

2416
01:47:31,101 --> 01:47:33,921
I think he thinks about
what's good for me now.

2417
01:47:34,551 --> 01:47:36,621
And about using power in
order to get those things.

2418
01:47:36,621 --> 01:47:40,941
And if he could put those tools in
service of a higher strategy, like he

2419
01:47:40,941 --> 01:47:42,711
would be incredibly potent and competent.

2420
01:47:42,711 --> 01:47:43,431
But he hasn't done that.

2421
01:47:43,431 --> 01:47:45,051
And that gets to the last
point, which you already sort of

2422
01:47:45,051 --> 01:47:46,071
said, but I'll just repeat it.

2423
01:47:46,401 --> 01:47:49,341
It's so easy to be the president of
the United States compared to every

2424
01:47:49,341 --> 01:47:50,751
other country that we've talked about.

2425
01:47:51,021 --> 01:47:53,601
The United States is the most
geopolitically blessed country in

2426
01:47:53,601 --> 01:47:55,251
the history of human civilization.

2427
01:47:55,251 --> 01:47:58,431
We've got the energy, we've got the
people, we've got the geography.

2428
01:47:58,431 --> 01:47:59,751
We're separated from enemies.

2429
01:47:59,751 --> 01:48:01,131
We're not surrounded by anybody else.

2430
01:48:01,131 --> 01:48:04,011
Like, and he doesn't have to
be there when the, when the

2431
01:48:04,011 --> 01:48:05,031
wars are actually being fought.

2432
01:48:05,031 --> 01:48:08,661
He's sitting on a military that spends,
you know, 10 times or, uh, the, you

2433
01:48:08,661 --> 01:48:11,901
know, the next 10 countries combine
their military budgets aligned with the

2434
01:48:11,901 --> 01:48:13,131
military budget of the United States.

2435
01:48:13,131 --> 01:48:14,751
Right now it's super easy.

2436
01:48:14,781 --> 01:48:17,361
And in his first term, he
had some huge missteps.

2437
01:48:17,601 --> 01:48:22,371
Like he basically had a Bay of Pigs
light with Venezuela, uh, COVI.

2438
01:48:22,461 --> 01:48:25,041
And the lockdowns happened
under this dude's watch.

2439
01:48:25,101 --> 01:48:27,951
Like, don't forget that
Republicans, like he was the one

2440
01:48:27,951 --> 01:48:29,781
controlling the levers at the time.

2441
01:48:29,781 --> 01:48:33,021
And he was the one who like, okay,
yeah, he insulted Fauci a bunch.

2442
01:48:33,021 --> 01:48:34,311
Did he do anything about it?

2443
01:48:34,401 --> 01:48:38,481
Marko Papic: Well, I mean, uh, you know,
I think COVID is both his best and worst.

2444
01:48:38,481 --> 01:48:40,131
I mean, operational war warp, warp speed.

2445
01:48:40,131 --> 01:48:41,391
Jacob Shapiro: Warp speed is his best.

2446
01:48:41,391 --> 01:48:44,931
But his response to COVID some of his
worst, well, the way that he's bitching

2447
01:48:44,931 --> 01:48:48,831
at the Federal Reserve, lower interest
rates 300, like, I mean, you start

2448
01:48:48,831 --> 01:48:50,661
going through the stuff like, it's just,

2449
01:48:50,661 --> 01:48:51,201
Marko Papic: well,
here's what I would say.

2450
01:48:51,681 --> 01:48:55,281
Le let, let me, let me try to like
encapsulate what you're actually saying.

2451
01:48:55,281 --> 01:49:00,051
You know, I think that in a way,
his instincts, his brashness,

2452
01:49:00,141 --> 01:49:02,241
his creativity, his bullying.

2453
01:49:03,036 --> 01:49:07,026
All of those things are why I think
Trump's foreign policy is actually

2454
01:49:07,026 --> 01:49:08,166
much better than people think.

2455
01:49:08,706 --> 01:49:11,676
Like the way he handled the Israel
Iran thing was, was really good.

2456
01:49:12,306 --> 01:49:18,456
I mean, you know, Israel wagged the
dog, the tail being America, so he

2457
01:49:18,456 --> 01:49:19,536
had to kind of go along with it.

2458
01:49:19,536 --> 01:49:21,306
But he finished it, he
finished it quickly.

2459
01:49:21,846 --> 01:49:26,016
Uh, and you've got the Iranian
president on Tucker Carlson for 30

2460
01:49:26,016 --> 01:49:28,086
minutes, basically sucking up to Trump.

2461
01:49:28,086 --> 01:49:30,006
And I don't know if you
watched it, please do.

2462
01:49:30,216 --> 01:49:31,956
Incredible, 30 minutes of television.

2463
01:49:32,436 --> 01:49:36,186
The president of Iran, after being just
spanked by the United States of America,

2464
01:49:36,216 --> 01:49:42,096
is basically like glowingly sucking
up to the United States President.

2465
01:49:42,096 --> 01:49:44,196
So, so here's what I wanna say.

2466
01:49:45,486 --> 01:49:49,356
I've always said this, I think World
War III is far less likely with Donald

2467
01:49:49,356 --> 01:49:51,456
Trump as president than Kamala Harris.

2468
01:49:52,086 --> 01:49:53,586
That's just my objective.

2469
01:49:53,976 --> 01:49:57,426
You know, we can have a whole hour
for why, but one of the reasons, you

2470
01:49:57,426 --> 01:50:00,126
know, one of the reasons, and, and by
the way, that's like important, right?

2471
01:50:00,126 --> 01:50:04,146
Like, like I think, you know, and,
and, and one of the reasons is

2472
01:50:04,146 --> 01:50:09,006
that, yeah, he's, uh, kind of an
asshole in many ways, but, but in

2473
01:50:09,006 --> 01:50:12,816
a way that limits further conflict.

2474
01:50:12,936 --> 01:50:18,876
He's a moral, and that really works well
with geopolitics and foreign policy when

2475
01:50:18,876 --> 01:50:20,376
you are the leader of the best country,

2476
01:50:20,406 --> 01:50:22,296
Jacob Shapiro: when you're the
leader of the most powerful country.

2477
01:50:22,326 --> 01:50:22,656
Marko Papic: Exactly.

2478
01:50:22,686 --> 01:50:28,446
So you and I cannot give him credit
for his instinct, his abilities.

2479
01:50:29,841 --> 01:50:31,191
Because he's the leader of America.

2480
01:50:31,191 --> 01:50:36,651
But we have to criticize his predecessors
who did not do that, who were too

2481
01:50:36,651 --> 01:50:42,171
immoral and preachy and didn't know how
to pivot out of difficult corners like

2482
01:50:42,171 --> 01:50:45,621
Israel, Iran tensions, which I think
President Trump did not give anywhere near

2483
01:50:45,621 --> 01:50:47,331
enough credit for how he handled that.

2484
01:50:47,631 --> 01:50:50,511
That was masterful fucking
masterclass of game theory.

2485
01:50:51,351 --> 01:50:56,091
And so that's where we can't give
him credit because like, well, he's

2486
01:50:56,091 --> 01:50:57,081
the leader of the best country.

2487
01:50:57,081 --> 01:51:00,531
And it's like, yeah, but other
leaders have done much worse.

2488
01:51:01,251 --> 01:51:05,181
But again, we can't put him on
the list of top 30 because who

2489
01:51:05,181 --> 01:51:06,501
cares if he's predecessors?

2490
01:51:06,501 --> 01:51:07,191
Were morons.

2491
01:51:07,221 --> 01:51:08,151
So that's the first thing.

2492
01:51:08,751 --> 01:51:13,131
Whereas, whereas where I dis where
I disagree with you is when you

2493
01:51:13,131 --> 01:51:16,011
say, being a president of the United
States of America is very easy.

2494
01:51:16,011 --> 01:51:16,341
Yes.

2495
01:51:16,341 --> 01:51:19,911
And foreign, a policy side, all you
need to do is not be a moron who wants

2496
01:51:19,911 --> 01:51:21,711
to triple down on normative issues.

2497
01:51:21,711 --> 01:51:22,971
Like, stop it.

2498
01:51:22,971 --> 01:51:24,291
It's not 1993.

2499
01:51:24,681 --> 01:51:26,121
No, you president of the
United States of America.

2500
01:51:26,121 --> 01:51:27,141
It's a multipolar world.

2501
01:51:27,171 --> 01:51:28,881
You kind of have to be a, uh, asshole.

2502
01:51:29,421 --> 01:51:33,351
So that's true on the foreign policy,
but on the domestic side, it is

2503
01:51:33,351 --> 01:51:35,721
actually difficult to be a president
of the United States of America.

2504
01:51:35,871 --> 01:51:38,811
It's not maybe as difficult as
you made Xi Jinping's job in

2505
01:51:38,811 --> 01:51:41,451
2012, great defense of Xi Jinping.

2506
01:51:41,726 --> 01:51:46,221
It's not as difficult perhaps as Brazilian
politics, but it is really difficult.

2507
01:51:46,221 --> 01:51:49,791
And you have, you, you yourself,
you've made a comparison that you

2508
01:51:49,791 --> 01:51:52,731
and I came from independent sides
and we've done the same thing to

2509
01:51:52,731 --> 01:51:54,441
clients comparing Brazil and America.

2510
01:51:54,741 --> 01:51:55,851
It's complicated.

2511
01:51:55,851 --> 01:51:56,661
It's difficult.

2512
01:51:57,276 --> 01:51:59,856
Being a prime minister of
Canada is far more easier.

2513
01:51:59,856 --> 01:52:00,096
Why?

2514
01:52:00,096 --> 01:52:02,286
Because Prime Minister of
Canada is an elected king.

2515
01:52:03,426 --> 01:52:07,746
Prime minister of any parliamentary
democracy is a king for four years.

2516
01:52:08,091 --> 01:52:09,546
You know, you can do
whatever the fuck you want.

2517
01:52:09,576 --> 01:52:13,056
You've got parliamentary majority
or a coalition you good in

2518
01:52:13,056 --> 01:52:13,896
the United States of America.

2519
01:52:13,896 --> 01:52:14,856
It's very complicated.

2520
01:52:14,856 --> 01:52:20,286
And that is where his brashness and his,
uh, you know, short-termism as you put it.

2521
01:52:20,286 --> 01:52:25,056
But I would say just like being led by
his own gut and instinct, it, it kind of

2522
01:52:25,056 --> 01:52:28,956
falls on its head because domestically
it's not easy to be a president.

2523
01:52:28,956 --> 01:52:30,306
You need to be more nuanced.

2524
01:52:30,516 --> 01:52:31,926
You need to build coalitions.

2525
01:52:32,316 --> 01:52:36,276
And I think that quite often
he sees a potential solution

2526
01:52:36,336 --> 01:52:37,626
and then he doesn't get to it.

2527
01:52:38,286 --> 01:52:43,356
Because in the domestic arena, it's
not as easy as just saying, Israel and

2528
01:52:43,356 --> 01:52:44,736
Iran, dunno what the fuck they're doing.

2529
01:52:45,156 --> 01:52:48,006
You know, you can't just be the
dad that shows up in the room,

2530
01:52:48,006 --> 01:52:49,326
says, who started the fight?

2531
01:52:49,356 --> 01:52:50,016
I don't care.

2532
01:52:50,076 --> 01:52:52,981
You smack both kids and go back
downstairs to reading your newspaper.

2533
01:52:52,981 --> 01:52:55,926
Like you cannot actually just
do that on the domestic front.

2534
01:52:55,926 --> 01:53:01,806
So that's where I would say, you
know, the qualities Trump have has,

2535
01:53:01,896 --> 01:53:06,186
we can't give him credit for it on
the geopolitical side, but on the

2536
01:53:06,186 --> 01:53:08,016
domestic side, they don't actually work.

2537
01:53:09,201 --> 01:53:10,221
Jacob Shapiro: No, I don't
think they work at all.

2538
01:53:10,221 --> 01:53:13,401
And I think his thin skin, he's his
own worst enemy when it comes to these

2539
01:53:13,401 --> 01:53:16,461
things because he'll have an idea that
might be good, but then somebody tweets

2540
01:53:16,461 --> 01:53:19,701
something at him and he completely
does a 180 because he doesn't like

2541
01:53:19,701 --> 01:53:20,901
being insulted or something like that.

2542
01:53:20,901 --> 01:53:22,971
Like the top the, the Trump
always chickens out thing.

2543
01:53:22,971 --> 01:53:24,681
Like there's a real aspect to that.

2544
01:53:24,951 --> 01:53:27,651
I also, you know, you and I have talked
about the one big beautiful bill a couple

2545
01:53:27,651 --> 01:53:31,491
times now, you know, I'm slowly working
my way through the thousand pages, but

2546
01:53:31,491 --> 01:53:33,561
it looks like a massive own goal to me.

2547
01:53:33,771 --> 01:53:36,831
The, the federal Medicaid cuts
as a percentage of total Medicaid

2548
01:53:36,831 --> 01:53:41,451
spending are nearly double
what Reagan did in 81 and 82.

2549
01:53:41,661 --> 01:53:41,811
You

2550
01:53:41,811 --> 01:53:42,261
Marko Papic: still think

2551
01:53:42,261 --> 01:53:42,381
Jacob Shapiro: it's

2552
01:53:42,381 --> 01:53:43,071
Marko Papic: stimulative?

2553
01:53:44,031 --> 01:53:45,231
Jacob Shapiro: I do still
think it's stimulative.

2554
01:53:45,231 --> 01:53:47,691
We can get to that in a second, but
I'm just saying like, how does it

2555
01:53:47,691 --> 01:53:50,781
make political sense to cut Medicaid?

2556
01:53:51,051 --> 01:53:54,891
Like, like the percentage of Medicaid
spending by almost 10%, almost double

2557
01:53:54,891 --> 01:53:56,601
what Ronald, what Ronald Reagan did.

2558
01:53:56,841 --> 01:53:59,931
All you're gonna do is close down
rural hospitals and lead the people who

2559
01:53:59,931 --> 01:54:02,211
voted for you most passionately to die.

2560
01:54:02,241 --> 01:54:04,851
Like, I don't see any other
sort of outcome of that.

2561
01:54:04,851 --> 01:54:08,211
Or look at like, you know, the cutting
to, to snap and things like that.

2562
01:54:08,211 --> 01:54:12,771
Giving ice a budget equivalent to
Italy's military while you're also

2563
01:54:12,771 --> 01:54:14,031
cutting these Medicaid things.

2564
01:54:14,031 --> 01:54:14,301
Like what?

2565
01:54:14,301 --> 01:54:14,421
Well,

2566
01:54:14,566 --> 01:54:16,161
Marko Papic: that whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

2567
01:54:16,161 --> 01:54:17,991
That could be Georgia Maloney's fault.

2568
01:54:18,261 --> 01:54:18,741
You know what I mean?

2569
01:54:21,861 --> 01:54:23,631
Jacob Shapiro: Well, I'm I'm just
saying it's, it's also roughly

2570
01:54:23,631 --> 01:54:24,951
the budget that Israel has.

2571
01:54:24,951 --> 01:54:26,811
So Israel, Israel did pretty good.

2572
01:54:27,021 --> 01:54:28,731
Marko Papic: Look, the, the
one big beautiful bill, let's

2573
01:54:28,731 --> 01:54:29,991
just be very clear here.

2574
01:54:30,921 --> 01:54:34,881
If Kamala Harris had gotten elected
as president, she would've paid, she

2575
01:54:34,881 --> 01:54:36,531
would've had to pass something as well.

2576
01:54:36,531 --> 01:54:36,621
Sure.

2577
01:54:37,071 --> 01:54:39,891
There is absolutely, there's
no, there's no way that we

2578
01:54:39,891 --> 01:54:42,531
would've let 2017 tax cut expire.

2579
01:54:43,371 --> 01:54:44,391
That's just a fact.

2580
01:54:44,391 --> 01:54:48,651
And so, you know, Kamala Harris
or Donald Trump, they would've

2581
01:54:48,651 --> 01:54:51,411
both had to put all sorts of bells
and whistles to get it passed.

2582
01:54:52,041 --> 01:54:53,181
And it is what it is.

2583
01:54:53,181 --> 01:54:56,211
But, uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't
disagree you on, but No, it's, it's,

2584
01:54:56,211 --> 01:54:58,011
Jacob Shapiro: it's, it's just,
it's like the policy errors.

2585
01:54:58,011 --> 01:54:58,911
Like, so you're gonna cut.

2586
01:54:58,916 --> 01:55:01,371
And, and I don't mean this,
like, I, I hope listeners are not

2587
01:55:01,371 --> 01:55:03,681
thinking that I've been overtaken
by Trump derangement system.

2588
01:55:03,681 --> 01:55:06,051
This is actually, like, literally,
I don't understand what the

2589
01:55:06,051 --> 01:55:07,401
political logic of this is.

2590
01:55:07,401 --> 01:55:12,921
I don't understand how it makes political
sense to cut something like Medicaid, but

2591
01:55:12,921 --> 01:55:15,591
then to do like Trump accounts, you're
gonna give a thousand dollars to every

2592
01:55:15,591 --> 01:55:17,811
kid that's born in 2025 and on and beyond.

2593
01:55:17,811 --> 01:55:21,141
I think you should retroactive that to
2022 when my first daughter was born.

2594
01:55:21,591 --> 01:55:24,771
Um, and, and you're gonna, you're
gonna drive immigration down.

2595
01:55:24,771 --> 01:55:26,691
Like, I don't know if you've seen
the migration numbers at the border.

2596
01:55:26,691 --> 01:55:27,291
Oh yeah, yeah.

2597
01:55:27,291 --> 01:55:29,841
They tanked their record lows,
which on the one hand, good

2598
01:55:29,841 --> 01:55:31,041
job dealing with the crisis.

2599
01:55:31,041 --> 01:55:33,561
On the other hand, we also
need immigration in the country

2600
01:55:33,561 --> 01:55:34,701
from a growth perspective.

2601
01:55:34,701 --> 01:55:37,551
So if immigration is going to zero
'cause you've cracked down too hard,

2602
01:55:37,551 --> 01:55:39,201
like that's gonna show up in growth.

2603
01:55:39,381 --> 01:55:39,891
Well, this is where.

2604
01:55:40,551 --> 01:55:41,351
Marko Papic: This word, I just

2605
01:55:41,351 --> 01:55:43,851
Jacob Shapiro: like, I'm having trouble
making all these things make sense.

2606
01:55:43,851 --> 01:55:47,511
And like if I'm trying to evaluate him
as a domestic political leader Yeah.

2607
01:55:47,541 --> 01:55:51,261
I'm looking at it and I'm like, I
don't, and maybe, maybe he's a genius.

2608
01:55:51,261 --> 01:55:53,751
Maybe in two years I'll be here
being like, I'm sorry, I didn't

2609
01:55:53,751 --> 01:55:55,131
see the genius, but I see it.

2610
01:55:55,131 --> 01:55:56,631
I'm like, this is messed up.

2611
01:55:56,631 --> 01:56:00,021
I don't understand like, politically,
how this is good for you for the

2612
01:56:00,021 --> 01:56:01,341
United States, for the Republicans.

2613
01:56:01,341 --> 01:56:01,821
I don't get it.

2614
01:56:02,601 --> 01:56:02,901
Marko Papic: You know?

2615
01:56:02,901 --> 01:56:08,811
Um, where I will defend him is that I
think his gut usually leads him into the

2616
01:56:08,811 --> 01:56:13,431
right decision in the long term because
constraints move him into that move.

2617
01:56:13,431 --> 01:56:14,271
Mm-hmm.

2618
01:56:14,277 --> 01:56:17,721
But, you know, so for example,
U-S-M-C-A is a great free trade deal.

2619
01:56:18,861 --> 01:56:23,541
Like he started off negotiations,
braley with some idiotic ideas.

2620
01:56:23,571 --> 01:56:24,831
None of that got implemented.

2621
01:56:25,521 --> 01:56:28,971
The, the deal that got made was awesome.

2622
01:56:28,971 --> 01:56:33,201
Like Hillary Clinton would've loved
to make a deal like that, right?

2623
01:56:33,201 --> 01:56:36,951
So Donald Trump got done something
done that, if you remember, of the C

2624
01:56:36,951 --> 01:56:41,151
ffr or if you're an economist at the
IMF, you're like, wow, I, I like that.

2625
01:56:41,211 --> 01:56:41,841
That was awesome.

2626
01:56:42,861 --> 01:56:47,361
But he could have just gone to it maybe
earlier had he just like, as you said,

2627
01:56:47,361 --> 01:56:52,191
read a strategy piece, you know, or
like, you know, listen to so-called

2628
01:56:52,191 --> 01:56:55,491
experts, quote unquote, and I shit
on experts all the time, especially

2629
01:56:55,491 --> 01:56:59,211
American Learn elites, like, yeah,
sure many of them are morons, but like,

2630
01:56:59,211 --> 01:57:00,591
some of this stuff is pretty normal.

2631
01:57:00,861 --> 01:57:01,851
So it's pretty obvious.

2632
01:57:01,851 --> 01:57:04,161
Like, you don't, you
don't need to be like.

2633
01:57:04,746 --> 01:57:08,916
Member of some elitist cabal to figure out
how to get a deal with Mexico and Canada.

2634
01:57:08,946 --> 01:57:13,356
So what I would say to you is like,
I, I think one of the problems is

2635
01:57:13,356 --> 01:57:18,726
that, that, you know, his pension for
kind of rediscovering sliced bread,

2636
01:57:20,916 --> 01:57:21,216
right?

2637
01:57:21,216 --> 01:57:23,946
So, so like, so on one hand
I think, I think people who

2638
01:57:23,946 --> 01:57:27,876
criticize him, who do have Trump
derangement syndrome just hate him.

2639
01:57:28,176 --> 01:57:31,086
And then when he does something, when
he does something good, they attack it.

2640
01:57:31,086 --> 01:57:34,506
For example, I think it's absolutely
insane that you've got a bunch

2641
01:57:34,506 --> 01:57:37,266
of liberals who would not have
wanted to attack Iran now saying,

2642
01:57:37,266 --> 01:57:38,586
well, you didn't finish the job.

2643
01:57:38,586 --> 01:57:40,686
It's like, bro, what do you want?

2644
01:57:41,166 --> 01:57:45,306
You want him to go into a forever
war and find more uranium to bomb?

2645
01:57:45,306 --> 01:57:46,176
Like what are you talking about?

2646
01:57:46,476 --> 01:57:47,316
You know, relax.

2647
01:57:47,466 --> 01:57:51,546
That was perfectly well executed attack
on nuclear facilities and it's sufficient.

2648
01:57:51,846 --> 01:57:52,476
Shut up.

2649
01:57:53,256 --> 01:57:57,486
So on one hand there's that criticism
that everything he does is wrong, but on

2650
01:57:57,486 --> 01:58:03,276
the other hand, the criticism is really
that the endpoint, the, the concluded

2651
01:58:03,276 --> 01:58:06,876
negotiations, the U-S-M-C-A, the phase
one, these trade deals we're gonna get.

2652
01:58:07,116 --> 01:58:14,826
Like, did it really require the whole
entire like volatility of policy

2653
01:58:15,456 --> 01:58:19,746
just so that you, Mr. President can
figure out that what was obvious on

2654
01:58:19,746 --> 01:58:21,996
day one is obvious on day 300, right?

2655
01:58:22,476 --> 01:58:25,446
So that's where I would say that some
of that volatility is just unnecessary.

2656
01:58:25,446 --> 01:58:28,326
And, and that's where the domestic
politics gets really messy.

2657
01:58:28,596 --> 01:58:29,886
Uh, the other issue is immigration.

2658
01:58:29,886 --> 01:58:32,496
I mean, like we did a whole
episode, Jacob on immigration.

2659
01:58:34,161 --> 01:58:39,501
And, and my conclusion of that was like,
look, let's be very clear, Donald, like

2660
01:58:39,501 --> 01:58:43,461
fans of Donald Trump, have to explain why
was it that he s cuddled in immigration

2661
01:58:43,461 --> 01:58:47,241
deal, the Republicans and the Joe Biden
administration painstakingly produced.

2662
01:58:47,871 --> 01:58:50,931
He comes in and says, please don't
pass this deal to his Republican

2663
01:58:50,931 --> 01:58:54,321
friends so that he can use it
as an election, you know, issue.

2664
01:58:54,531 --> 01:58:56,001
This happened in early 2024.

2665
01:58:56,001 --> 01:58:56,481
Look it up.

2666
01:58:56,481 --> 01:58:57,411
Donald Trump, right?

2667
01:58:57,411 --> 01:59:00,771
Says to senators, uh, Republican
senators don't pass this bill.

2668
01:59:01,101 --> 01:59:04,371
And then now we've got the
situation where he is the president.

2669
01:59:04,371 --> 01:59:06,171
He's got full control of Congress.

2670
01:59:07,101 --> 01:59:08,001
I, okay, fine.

2671
01:59:08,001 --> 01:59:08,361
You know what?

2672
01:59:08,361 --> 01:59:09,531
You wanted to win the election.

2673
01:59:09,531 --> 01:59:10,911
I, I can abide by that.

2674
01:59:10,911 --> 01:59:11,541
God bless you.

2675
01:59:11,541 --> 01:59:14,421
You know, you delayed
immigration reform by 18 months.

2676
01:59:14,451 --> 01:59:15,141
Who cares?

2677
01:59:15,201 --> 01:59:16,011
You're all well done.

2678
01:59:16,551 --> 01:59:21,051
But now that you are a president,
like you have control of Congress, why

2679
01:59:21,051 --> 01:59:22,851
not pass your own immigration reform?

2680
01:59:22,851 --> 01:59:23,451
Why not do it?

2681
01:59:23,751 --> 01:59:24,261
You know what?

2682
01:59:24,261 --> 01:59:26,841
You can't find eight democratic senators.

2683
01:59:26,991 --> 01:59:31,041
Just, I don't know, pay them with
some pork or basically give them some

2684
01:59:31,041 --> 01:59:32,961
work visa programs for their state.

2685
01:59:32,961 --> 01:59:36,261
I don't know, but it seems
really interest, like that's,

2686
01:59:36,471 --> 01:59:37,821
that seems like an own goal.

2687
01:59:37,821 --> 01:59:42,561
Instead, there's this added pressure
domestically, you know, like talking

2688
01:59:42,561 --> 01:59:45,531
about, uh, arresting the mayor of
a city because they're doing this

2689
01:59:45,531 --> 01:59:49,611
or that, you know, there's street
battles between ice and so on.

2690
01:59:49,611 --> 01:59:52,011
Like, although that's obviously
overstated by the media, but that's

2691
01:59:52,011 --> 01:59:55,911
a good example of that domestic
policy that that is unnecessarily

2692
01:59:55,911 --> 01:59:59,001
aggressive and, uh, as circumstantial.

2693
01:59:59,796 --> 02:00:00,036
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah.

2694
02:00:00,036 --> 02:00:02,466
And, and just to say like, I don't
throw the baby out with the bath water.

2695
02:00:02,466 --> 02:00:06,216
Like I know I, I, I got a little
hot there, but I, I am saying like,

2696
02:00:06,246 --> 02:00:08,586
I do think he probably belongs
at the bottom edge of my list.

2697
02:00:08,586 --> 02:00:12,426
So he probably belongs, like in
the, in the low thirties or maybe

2698
02:00:12,426 --> 02:00:13,686
he should have even cracked my list.

2699
02:00:13,686 --> 02:00:16,596
And he has done things like, I'm not
one of these people who can't notice

2700
02:00:16,596 --> 02:00:18,126
when he does things that are good.

2701
02:00:18,126 --> 02:00:20,856
Like operation warp speed
was absolutely incredible.

2702
02:00:21,186 --> 02:00:23,466
I don't think he gets near enough
credit for what he did with Operation

2703
02:00:23,706 --> 02:00:23,826
Marko Papic: Speed.

2704
02:00:23,826 --> 02:00:24,336
No, he gets no credit.

2705
02:00:24,786 --> 02:00:25,656
Jacob Shapiro: He gets no credit for it.

2706
02:00:25,986 --> 02:00:27,966
No credit in the one, in
the one big beautiful bill.

2707
02:00:27,966 --> 02:00:30,696
This idea that you're gonna give a
thousand dollars to every kid that is

2708
02:00:30,696 --> 02:00:34,176
born between now and 2028 to have a nest
egg so that they have, you know, that's

2709
02:00:34,176 --> 02:00:35,466
provided by the federal government.

2710
02:00:36,186 --> 02:00:36,637
Sounds great.

2711
02:00:36,936 --> 02:00:38,436
We should have been doing
this a long time ago.

2712
02:00:38,436 --> 02:00:40,626
That's something the Dems have been
talking about for years, and he's

2713
02:00:40,626 --> 02:00:41,886
the one that actually got it done.

2714
02:00:41,886 --> 02:00:42,486
Like, cool.

2715
02:00:42,486 --> 02:00:45,036
There's some stuff in this
bill that I'm like right on.

2716
02:00:45,036 --> 02:00:45,966
But it's, yeah, but come on,

2717
02:00:46,416 --> 02:00:46,656
Marko Papic: come on.

2718
02:00:46,656 --> 02:00:49,746
We all know, we all know $800 of
that thousand is going in like

2719
02:00:49,746 --> 02:00:51,156
his crypto plays though, right?

2720
02:00:51,216 --> 02:00:51,876
So like, come on.

2721
02:00:51,876 --> 02:00:52,446
Well,

2722
02:00:52,446 --> 02:00:55,116
Jacob Shapiro: you know, that, that
goes back to my other point, but I'm

2723
02:00:55,116 --> 02:00:58,386
just saying like, he has these, he
has these like things that make you,

2724
02:00:58,446 --> 02:01:01,356
but then when you put together the sum
total, I think you're exactly right.

2725
02:01:01,356 --> 02:01:03,726
Like, could you have gotten the
U-S-M-C-A with all this nonsense?

2726
02:01:03,726 --> 02:01:06,336
Could you have gotten better trade
deals without ruining the relationship

2727
02:01:06,336 --> 02:01:08,556
with Japan and South Korea, which
he's in the middle of doing.

2728
02:01:08,736 --> 02:01:12,456
Like one of, I think one of the only real
foreign policy successes of the Biden

2729
02:01:12,456 --> 02:01:16,881
administration was really strengthening
the trilateral between Japan, South

2730
02:01:16,881 --> 02:01:18,906
Korea, the United States that's gone now.

2731
02:01:18,936 --> 02:01:22,716
He's just like jettisoned them and turned
Japan and South Korea along with the

2732
02:01:22,716 --> 02:01:26,196
Europeans against the United States, but
for generations to come because virus

2733
02:01:26,196 --> 02:01:27,906
treating was that really necessary.

2734
02:01:27,906 --> 02:01:28,296
Like I.

2735
02:01:28,866 --> 02:01:31,176
Marko Papic: Look what I would say,
what I would say about this is, uh,

2736
02:01:31,776 --> 02:01:39,876
you know, it's what I feared the most
is that there are about five things

2737
02:01:39,876 --> 02:01:44,526
that President Trump has done that
are maybe like top 20 things that any

2738
02:01:44,526 --> 02:01:46,416
president has done in the last 150 years.

2739
02:01:47,526 --> 02:01:51,216
Like, that's how transformative
he can be on occasion.

2740
02:01:52,506 --> 02:01:54,486
And foreign policy is, is one of them.

2741
02:01:54,516 --> 02:01:59,856
But I fear that because of the
divisiveness and the rhetoric, the next

2742
02:01:59,856 --> 02:02:02,616
president of the United States of America
who's a Democrat, will abandon those,

2743
02:02:02,646 --> 02:02:07,206
even if they're good for America, just
purely out of Trump derangement syndrome.

2744
02:02:07,926 --> 02:02:10,206
And you saw that with the
Biden administration as well.

2745
02:02:10,236 --> 02:02:16,326
They kept some things like, you know, the
China focus, uh, but on the other fronts,

2746
02:02:16,776 --> 02:02:21,276
they categorically abandoned many of
the things that Trump did that were not

2747
02:02:21,396 --> 02:02:27,066
completely insane or that were actually
very good, just like Trump abandoned

2748
02:02:27,066 --> 02:02:31,536
things that Obama did just 'cause they
were Obamas, you know, and that's petty.

2749
02:02:31,986 --> 02:02:36,816
But that's what happens when you're
divisive and when you, um, induce

2750
02:02:36,846 --> 02:02:38,316
derangement syndrome in people.

2751
02:02:38,316 --> 02:02:41,256
And you can blame liberals for
having Trump derangement syndrome

2752
02:02:41,256 --> 02:02:42,666
if you're conservative, fine.

2753
02:02:43,326 --> 02:02:47,766
But it's also being induced by,
uh, almost like this mean trolling.

2754
02:02:48,066 --> 02:02:52,626
And that's, you know, I think
Trump defenders would say, well,

2755
02:02:52,626 --> 02:02:55,686
you need to have a character like
that to be truly revolutionary.

2756
02:02:56,976 --> 02:02:58,866
And I'm not sure that's the case.

2757
02:02:59,226 --> 02:03:02,586
I think there's leaders on
our list who are revolutionary

2758
02:03:02,586 --> 02:03:03,666
and they're not divisive.

2759
02:03:04,566 --> 02:03:04,746
Yeah.

2760
02:03:05,166 --> 02:03:08,526
And they're in the top five and they're
in the top five of our list, by the way.

2761
02:03:09,936 --> 02:03:10,836
And that's why they're there.

2762
02:03:11,586 --> 02:03:13,296
Jacob Shapiro: It was Shelby
Foote who said The Great American

2763
02:03:13,296 --> 02:03:15,396
art is is compromised and
there's none of that in him.

2764
02:03:15,396 --> 02:03:17,436
I guess the last thought I'll just
say here, and, and this goes back

2765
02:03:17,436 --> 02:03:20,226
to my questions about the one big
beautiful bill and specifically the

2766
02:03:20,226 --> 02:03:21,546
Medicaid cuts and things like that.

2767
02:03:21,546 --> 02:03:24,696
Like, I wonder when we're looking
back if, um, you know, sometimes I,

2768
02:03:24,696 --> 02:03:26,526
I compare Trump to, is he Huey Long?

2769
02:03:26,526 --> 02:03:27,306
Is he LBJ?

2770
02:03:27,696 --> 02:03:31,656
But recently I've been thinking maybe
he's Coolidge or Hoover, like maybe he's

2771
02:03:31,656 --> 02:03:35,376
just late stage in an economic cycle
governing a country where inequality

2772
02:03:35,376 --> 02:03:39,576
is increasing and he's sort of doing
the things that the, the wealthy

2773
02:03:39,576 --> 02:03:41,196
class wants and things like that.

2774
02:03:41,406 --> 02:03:44,676
But like when you start cutting Medicaid
by this much and you start cutting these

2775
02:03:44,676 --> 02:03:48,546
entitlement benefits by this much, even
if people think that they want that, once

2776
02:03:48,546 --> 02:03:53,346
they start experiencing that, they're
probably gonna turn on the system and

2777
02:03:53,346 --> 02:03:56,466
they're probably gonna say, okay, well
the system is not working for me anymore.

2778
02:03:56,526 --> 02:04:00,756
And I think this, I think you see this in
that Steve Bann and an A OC are basically

2779
02:04:00,756 --> 02:04:02,466
both saying you need to raise taxes.

2780
02:04:02,676 --> 02:04:04,746
So the fringes of both
parties are starting to say,

2781
02:04:04,746 --> 02:04:06,006
Hey guys, the party is up.

2782
02:04:06,006 --> 02:04:06,366
Let's go.

2783
02:04:06,426 --> 02:04:09,066
You know, there's Elon Musk out
there with the third party as well.

2784
02:04:09,336 --> 02:04:12,186
So, I mean, we talked about
legacy for some of these leaders.

2785
02:04:12,186 --> 02:04:14,016
I think that's another problem for Trump.

2786
02:04:14,016 --> 02:04:16,776
Now, maybe I'm wrong about the impact
of some of the things that he's pushing

2787
02:04:16,776 --> 02:04:19,746
through, but some of the things that
he's pushed through domestically to

2788
02:04:19,746 --> 02:04:23,676
me seem like unforced errors and seems
to me like they're gonna set up both

2789
02:04:23,676 --> 02:04:25,536
the Republican party and his legacy.

2790
02:04:26,271 --> 02:04:30,471
For, for not, not having historians
treat them so kindly, but, but maybe

2791
02:04:30,471 --> 02:04:32,061
I'm wrong, but yeah, I don't know.

2792
02:04:32,121 --> 02:04:32,482
That's another,

2793
02:04:32,541 --> 02:04:35,661
Marko Papic: I mean, it would be,
yeah, it would be very fitting if

2794
02:04:35,811 --> 02:04:38,121
Donald Trump brought us a OC in 2028.

2795
02:04:38,241 --> 02:04:39,111
So there you go.

2796
02:04:39,231 --> 02:04:39,681
Uh,

2797
02:04:39,771 --> 02:04:41,931
Jacob Shapiro: alright, well I don't
think he's gonna do that, but, uh,

2798
02:04:42,531 --> 02:04:44,751
Marko Papic: alright, well listen,
uh, this is over two hours now.

2799
02:04:44,751 --> 02:04:48,261
I think that, uh, we should
definitely put a stop, uh, on stop.

2800
02:04:48,621 --> 02:04:48,801
Okay.

2801
02:04:48,801 --> 02:04:49,131
Yeah.

2802
02:04:49,461 --> 02:04:50,421
Um, alright, cool.

2803
02:04:50,421 --> 02:04:51,711
Well that's, that's, uh, the 2020.

2804
02:04:51,711 --> 02:04:52,191
Wait, wait, wait.

2805
02:04:52,191 --> 02:04:52,251
We,

2806
02:04:52,941 --> 02:04:54,351
Jacob Shapiro: we, we have to
answer one more question, Marco.

2807
02:04:54,351 --> 02:04:57,381
'cause I said I, I think Trump
probably belongs in my low thirties

2808
02:04:57,381 --> 02:04:58,551
or maybe even top twenties.

2809
02:04:58,611 --> 02:05:00,411
Do you have him anywhere close?

2810
02:05:00,411 --> 02:05:02,211
Like where was he on your
list before you close it out?

2811
02:05:02,571 --> 02:05:03,316
Marko Papic: Yeah, I think he stopped 50,

2812
02:05:04,476 --> 02:05:04,896
Jacob Shapiro: top 50.

2813
02:05:05,096 --> 02:05:07,671
Marko Papic: I mean, he's not, he's
like, again, like anyone who complains

2814
02:05:07,671 --> 02:05:13,071
about their favorite leader being
35th, remember there's like a hundred,

2815
02:05:13,071 --> 02:05:14,961
190 plus countries in the world.

2816
02:05:15,051 --> 02:05:21,051
So, yeah, I don't think he's in the, the
second half of countries on the planet.

2817
02:05:21,081 --> 02:05:24,891
Um, so yeah, he belongs probably
somewhere in the top 50.

2818
02:05:25,968 --> 02:05:28,968
last word I'm gonna say is
we should do this every year.

2819
02:05:29,898 --> 02:05:33,108
We should publish this,
um, as a joint list.

2820
02:05:33,348 --> 02:05:38,388
The, the top 44 leaders, well, we'll call
it top 30 and we'll see how many make

2821
02:05:38,388 --> 02:05:40,908
it, but uh, this is our 2025 edition.

2822
02:05:40,908 --> 02:05:42,288
So Mexico, you won.

2823
02:05:42,678 --> 02:05:44,748
Well done Italy, you came in second place.

2824
02:05:44,748 --> 02:05:45,558
Well done as well.

2825
02:05:46,293 --> 02:05:50,133
Uh, yeah, like 12 months from now
we'll see where we are and we'll see

2826
02:05:50,253 --> 02:05:51,933
whi which were our biggest misses.

2827
02:05:51,933 --> 02:05:54,363
So that I think, uh, I'm
really looking forward to that.

2828
02:05:55,173 --> 02:05:56,043
Jacob Shapiro: Yeah, it's gonna be fun.

2829
02:05:56,103 --> 02:05:56,343
All right.

2830
02:05:56,523 --> 02:05:56,913
Cheers, dude.