Well, thank you for being here. We're super

excited to have you. Yes, there is a lot that I want to talk

about. But let me just start kind of bigger picture and then

we'll come down a little bit. So in reading a little bit about

your background, I want to start with something about your name

being later in the alphabet that has led to your life's work.

Yeah, not later in the alphabet earlier in the

alphabet. So with the last name, Abraham's A B, I always went

first in school, I always knew where I would sit, I always know

who was going first. I was a teacher, a high school teacher

for a couple years. And I understand that it for high

school and elementary school teachers, it's really easy just

to organize your life alphabetically. But what that

meant is I was always dealing with spontaneous speaking, and

my latest work is really all about how to be a better

spontaneous speaker. And it's something that I've been

developing some because of my last name. And some because of

circumstances I found myself in, really did initiate this

interest in this notion of how do we speak better in the

moment? And if you think about it, most of our communication is

spontaneous. It's not planned. It's a somebody asks a question,

ask for feedback, you're making small talk. And so we need to

learn how to do this better. So we can be more effective in

these circumstances.

So you remember being called on Matt, you get to

go first.

Oh even more than that, it's like, Okay, we just

read The Scarlet Letter, your turn to tell me what you think

about whoever the main character was? And I yeah, I was often

called on first to answer questions much to the relief of

my fellow students, they were actually grateful, because by

the time it got to them, they had time to think and plan.

So what do you say like, how do you, I would

imagine, but please educate us, when you're in spontaneous

conversation, there is the internal dialogue that you have

to deal with at the exact same time as getting prepared to

speak and attempting to not sound like an idiot, which I do

enough for everybody. So tell me about that. How do you deal with

that?

Well, I'm certainly happy to share I mean,

my whole goal is just to help people do better in any

communication circumstance, it boils down to two things, it

boils down to mindset and messaging. So we have to get our

mindset and approach aligned with our goals of speaking in

the moment. So first, we have to manage anxiety, anxiety looms

large in all communication, but especially in spontaneous

speaking. And then we have to reframe how we see this, first

and foremost, the goal we have many of us, when we're put on

the spot, we want to do our job, right, we want to give the best

answer, we want to give great feedback, we want to be the most

interesting person in small talk. And that puts a tremendous

amount of pressure on ourselves and makes it actually less

likely we will achieve those goals. So we have to switch from

perfection to connection, just have the goal be connecting and

conveying the information you need rather than doing it right.

And by the way, there is no right way to communicate. there

better ways in worse ways. So the first thing we have to

reframe is our goal. The second thing we have to reframe is the

whole interaction. Many of us see the spontaneous speaking

situations as threatening as something we have to defend

against. When somebody asks us a question, we feel challenged

when somebody asks for feedback, we feel put on the spot. And yet

we need to reframe those as opportunities. It's an

opportunity to extend to expand to collaborate. So by reframing

the goal, and just the whole experience, we can do better.

And then we have to think about messaging. So it's not just

mindset, it's also messaging. messaging in the moment, what

can really help us is leveraging a structure a structure provides

a roadmap, but directionality many of us when we're put on the

spot, we just blather we just list information, itemized

different things, and our brains are not wired for itemized

information structure really helps. To give you an example of

a structure if you've ever watched a television ad problem

solution benefit is how that ad is most likely been constructed,

there's a problem or challenge here's a way of solving it

through the product or service and then here's the benefit.

That's what a structure does. It's a logical connection of

ideas. So by focusing on mindset and focusing on messaging we can

actually manage these situations very effectively and be not only

less stressed but more connected in the process.

Okay, so what is a good structure?

Oh, there's so many good structures don't get

me started problem solution benefit as I mentioned

comparison contrast conclusion past present future my favorite

structure in the whole world is three simple questions. What So

what now what you start with the What the What is your idea your

feedback, your update your product or service? The so what

is why is it important to somebody you're speaking to what

value does it bring? And then the now what is what comes next?

So by leveraging a structure like this, or many others, the

whole second part of my my new book is all about structures for

different circumstances, you can actually do better so I

encourage people To find structures that work from them,

and then leverage it. Now I want to take a quick timeout. I just

used what So what now what? To answer that question, I told you

what the best structure was, I told you why they're important.

And I encourage everybody to find one and use it. So it's

just a simple, easy way to package up information for me as

a communicator. But it hopefully helps you as a listener,

understand it, and then act on it better. That's the power of

structure.

Well done. Well done, touche.

Thank you. Thank you. I scored a point. Good.

Okay, so you talk a little bit about some

science based strategies to manage the anxiety. I think for

a lot of us, that's a big part of it, that if we could just

quiet that we actually can communicate relatively well. So

give me a couple of thoughts on when what's between your ears

goes nuts and answering a question. How do you get that to

chill out?

Yeah, it's not just what goes on between the

ears. It's what's goes on in your body as well. So in

managing anxiety around speaking, you really again have

to take a two pronged approach. Everything comes in twos here,

you have to manage symptoms and sources. Symptoms are the things

that we physiologically experience what happens in our

body, our heart rate beat faster, we might get shaky. For

me, I turn red and I blush what happens for you, Stephanie, when

you get nervous and speaking situations?

I don't know if I actually turn red, but I feel

like I'm turning red.

Yeah, we feel that that getting hotter? Yes,

absolutely. These are very normal and natural reaction

symptoms. And then there are sources that we can deal with as

well. Let's start with the symptoms. There are many things

we can do. My first book was called speaking up without

freaking out and there were 50 techniques based on academic

research that can help us feel better. Let me give you just a

few. One is to take deep belly breaths. Deep breathing tends to

work for most people by taking a deep inhalation filling your

lower abdomen. If you've ever done yoga or tai chi, it's that

deep breathing. And then the key is the exhalation. You want your

exhale to be longer than your inhale. And the longer your

exhale is the more impact you have. So just taking two or

three deep breaths like this slows down your heart rate slows

down your speaking rate stops some of the shakiness and allows

your voice to be deep and resonant when we get nervous, we

breathe shallow and our voices change if you get shaky besides

deep breathing big broad movements, moving your body

forward, if you're physically in front of people standing that

allows that adrenaline which is causing the shakiness to

dissipate. And if you're like me and you turning red or feeling

hot, that's the result of your heart beating faster, your body

tensing up, it's like you're exercising your blood pressure

is going up. And what we need to do is cool ourselves down. And a

great way to do that is hold something cold in the palms of

your hand, the palms of your hand or thermo regulators for

your body. On a cold morning, I am certain you've held a warm

cup of tea or coffee and felt it warm you up just by holding it,

we can do the reverse by holding a cold bottle of water and it

causes you to sweat less blush less. So those are some things

we can do for symptoms. Sources are the things that initiate or

exacerbate our anxiety, we've talked about some of that

reframing we can do in terms of connection over perfection,

seeing it as an opportunity. A good one also is many of us are

made nervous by the goal that we are trying to achieve. When

you're speaking you have a goal my students want to get a good

grade, the entrepreneurs, I coach want to get funding, you

might have a great idea you want people to adopt, and we're

nervous that we won't achieve it. So that means we're afraid

or being made afraid of something that is in the future.

And the best way to short circuit that is to become in the

present. So you can do something physical, you can listen to a

song or a playlist like athletes do, you can start at 100 and

count backwards by a challenging number like seven teams, there's

a lot you can do to bring yourself in the present moment.

So by managing symptoms and sources, we can actually tame

that anxiety beast and be more comfortable speaking planned or

spontaneously.

So you are quoted as saying "daring to be

dull"?

Yes. So this goes back to that notion that we put

a lot of pressure on ourselves to do our communication, right.

So I borrow an idea from the world of improvisation. When I

did the research I did into speaking spontaneously, I looked

across many fields, psychology, anthropology, neuroscience, and

even improvisation. And in it, we probably had these wonderful

sayings dare to be dull. I've actually turbocharged that and

encourage people to maximize their mediocrity. By striving

just to get it done, rather than to do it perfectly. You actually

free up more cognitive bandwidth to focus on what you're doing.

Think of it this way. If I am constantly judging and

evaluating everything I say, I have less bandwidth to focus on

what I'm saying. And this is why memorizing is so bad for us.

When we memorize we've created the right way to Say it. And as

I'm speaking, I'm constantly comparing back and forth. And

that means I have less energy to focus directly on the

communication that I'm trying to do so daring to be dull

maximizing mediocrity is all about focusing on the audience,

we're speaking to that connection, and letting go of

that perfection. So we're dialing down the volume on how

we're internally focused. And we're actually increasing the

volume on how we're externally focused. Okay, there's another

phrase in improv that I think is so powerful for many of us when

it comes to spontaneous speaking, which is, do what

needs to be done nothing more, nothing less. Many of us get in

our heads and say, How do I answer this? Right? How do I not

offend somebody? So sometimes daring to be dulled? Doing what

needs to be done is all you need to do? And that helps you be

effective in that moment.

Love it. Okay. How do you get out of a

conversation that you don't want to be in?

Uh huh. Yes. So that can be very challenging. So

a lot of the one of the main areas I talked about in the

second part of the book is small talk. And small talk is one of

these things where we often find ourselves in conversations that

we don't want to be part of, and we need to get out of them. So I

have my podcast, think fast talk smart had the pleasure of

interviewing someone named Rachel Greenwald, Rachel is

fascinating. She is an academic and a professional matchmaker,

and she has wonderful advice. And she taught me what I call

her what she calls and what I use is the white flag approach.

And it doesn't mean surrender, it doesn't mean you're in a

situation a conversation, you'd want to be in a new surrender.

Rather, in auto racing, they signaled the last lap by waving

the white flag, it tells all the drivers that we're about to end

the race. In conversation, you can exit politely by simply

waving the white flag, simply say in a few minutes, I want to

go talk to somebody over there. But before I go in, you ask

another question, or you share some information with them about

something they said. So you continue the conversation just a

little bit longer. And then you excuse yourself now, because

you've previewed that you're excusing yourself, nobody's

surprised, there's less awkwardness, it gives the other

person or people a chance to figure out what they're going to

do. So they're not just left there, in a strange way. And it

gets us away from the exiting of most awkward conversations that

we do, which is through biology, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I have

to go to the bathroom. So instead, by waving the white

flag, it's just much easier. It's much more graceful. And I

use it all the time. And it works.

Okay, second part of that, how do you answer

a question that you don't have any answer for?

Yes. And many of us find ourselves in these

situations. So you say I don't know. Right? So when somebody

says, you know, ask you a question, and you don't know the

answer, you say, I don't know. But you immediately follow it up

with what you're going to do to find the answer out and give a

timeframe for when you will get back to them. And if you have a

hunch or an inkling as to what the answer might be, you can say

that so I might say something like, I don't know that answer.

I'm gonna go talk to Stephanie, and I'm gonna get back to you

within 24 hours. My hunch is the answer is this. Now many of us

feel that when we don't know an answer, that that's her rific.

That that's awful. In fact, the expectation that you know,

everything is pretty strange, right? It's not reasonable.

Also, many of us feel that we lose credibility. In those

moments, we don't know answers. There's some preliminary

research that says, actually saying you don't know, saying

how you're going to find out and then actually following up

bolsters your credibility as much if not more than when you

had you initially answered the question. Now, obviously, you

don't use this is a ploy. And purposely do this to boost your

credibility. But we worry that it's going to put us at a

disadvantage. And in fact, by demonstrating tenacity, by

demonstrating that you have the wherewithal to figure out and

find out information that actually helps you in these

circumstances. So we need to let go of that notion that we need

to know everything. Now, obviously, if people are asking

lots of questions, and you don't know many of the answers, that's

a different situation, one where there's probably a mismatch

between your expertise and the demands of the circumstance. So

saying, I don't know is not the end of the world. And it may

actually be okay and helpful.

Super helpful. Okay, negative feedback. It's a

good way when you know, and again, I'm not talking about

being mean, or mean spirited, or anything with Mal intent, but

constructive, but you know, will be received as negative

feedback.

Yes. So first and foremost, I am a disciple of Kim

Scott, and radical candor. I think her work is fantastic. Kim

has a friend, she's actually a neighbor. And so that approach

that feedback is something that can be beneficial and, and is

something that needs to be given constantly, not just

constructive feedback, but positive feedback, neutral

feedback. And in giving feedback all the time. Any one instance

of constructive feedback is perceived very differently than

if there's no feedback and then all of a sudden, constructive

feedback. I see constructive Negative feedback as an

opportunity to problem solve, and when you reframe it as such,

it changes the way you approach the whole thing. Now, certainly

there are things that people do that need to be stopped right

away, it's inappropriate, it's wrong, you're not going to say,

hey, hey, let's have a conversation about No, you just

have to stop it. But for most constructive feedback, it is in

your best interest to collaborate with the person to

actually achieve results. So first see it as an invitation to

problem solves, which means you want to invite the person in

rather than making them defensive. So it changes the

tone in the language that you use. I have a structure that I

love to use, or feedback, especially spontaneous feedback.

It's four eyes for eyes like glasses, it helps you see

better, but each step starts with the letter I the first

hidden information. It's the objective reason I'm giving you

the feedback. Imagine you're a manager, and you have an

employee who consistently shows up late and unprepared to

meetings, I might start the feedback by saying this is now

the third time you've been over five minutes late for the

meeting. That's information. It's level setting. It's here's

what the feedback is on. Its objective. Anybody attending the

meeting would say, yep, that person's late. And it's the

third time the second eye is impact. What does this mean for

you, the giver of the feedback, and this is where we use I

language, I feel, I think, I believe, when I use you language

that sounds accusatory and likely makes you defensive. So I

might say, I feel you're not prioritizing this meeting the

same way the rest of us are. The third eye is the invitation. I

might ask it as a question, I might say, what can we do to

help make sure you show up on time to the next meeting, that's

an invitation is formed as a question, I could make an

invitation that is a declarative sentence, I'd like for you to

attend the next meeting five minutes early. And then finally,

the final lie. The fourth eye is implication, these are

consequences, they can be positive or negative. If you

show up on time to the next meeting, we'll finish this

project earlier and get a new, really cool one. Or I might say,

if you don't show up on time, next time, we might have to

remove you from the team. So it's information, impact,

invitation, in implications. And if you remember, the four eyes,

not only does it package over the feedback in a way the

recipient can understand it. It also helps you as the giver to

prioritize what you say, so that the feedback is clear. We have

all been the recipient of feedback that's vague, and we're

trying to figure out what do I do What was actually asked of

me. So having it structured this way, as an invitation can help

you and the recipient.

I'm gonna go flip the coin a little bit. So

we talk a lot about communication, as a society and

as a culture, both professionally and personally.

Or as individuals, there has been this like, tremendous ramp

up over the last, you know, 20 years to really understanding

the importance of communication. And now what I'm hearing a lot

of is the word communication, saying, hey, it's not just the

communication. It's the comprehension. Share with me the

other side of the coin, the comprehension.

Yeah, so communication is a two way

street, right? There's a very simple but famous model of

communication. That's called the transactional model. There's a

sender and a receiver. And the sender has to get the message to

the receiver in a way that they understand it. So it's not just

about broadcasting. It's about helping people comprehend. And

there's several things that help do that one we've already talked

about. And that is the structuring of a message. Our

brains are not wired to receive lists. We don't remember lists.

Well, bullets kill don't kill people with bullet points. You

know, in fact, I'd ask you, Stephanie, how many items do you

need to have on a shopping list? Before you actually have to

write it down? For me, it's three, if I have to go to the

grocery store and get more than three things, I have to write it

down, or I'll forget something. Our brains just aren't wired for

lists. So structure helps. The other thing we have to do to

help is we have to focus our messages. I believe the most

precious commodity we have in the world today is attention.

One of the reasons people don't comprehend remember act on our

messages is they're being bombarded with so many. So we

have to focus our messages to make them clear and concise, so

our audience understands it. So we need to make sure that we

package them up through structure, but also make them

incredibly relevant. And goals focused. If they're focused on a

goal and relevant to our audience, they're more likely to

understand and comprehend what we're saying. And the final

thing we have to think about is whenever we speak, we suffer

from the curse of knowledge and the curse of passion. We know a

lot about what we're speaking on. And we're really passionate

about it. We need to make sure that we translate our messages

so our audience understand it. We often will use jargon and

acronyms and terminology that our audiences don't necessarily

understand. So we have to translate it so that they can

really appreciate it. So it's about structure. It's about

focus, and it's about accessibility. That's what helps

people comprehend our messages.

Very good. Okay, so I heard this phrase

last week, and I really liked it. And we are all very familiar

with the term two sides of the coin. And this person that was

going to explain something said to me, Hey, there are two sides

to every coin. But there's also the ring around the outside of

the coin. So while it's not perceived as a side of a coin,

it is part of it. So for in listening to you, and hearing

this message of communication and setting ourselves up to

communicate in a way that can be comprehended. My understanding

is that you have had some extensive martial arts training

as well. And maybe this has been the circle around your coin.

There are lots of circles around my coin. Thank

you. Yes, I grew up in a family of people who talk all the time.

So I had to learn to be louder and more focused. I grew up in a

family of teachers. So I've always been focused on that. But

yes, martial arts has played a big part of my life. I've

studied martial arts for over four decades, many different

styles, I've taught martial arts, I still teach martial

arts. So yes, it's had a huge impact on my life. And quite

frankly, I think everybody should have some physical outlet

that helps them explore the issues of their lives in a

different way. You know, I have chosen a very cerebral

profession, where we do research we teach, we talk about we

discuss, we debate, and I think it's important to have some

physical outlet where you can still deal with some of those

same issues, and maybe it's hiking, maybe it's a musical

instrument, maybe it's doing something else with your hands.

But really, for me, martial arts has been really, really important.

So, how? I mean, thank you for saying that.

But for people who don't have a super physicality to them, they

often go Yeah, I hear it's great. Okay.

Right. So the martial arts for me, helps me be

helps me be more present oriented, you know, people see

the martial arts is just physical, and you watch these

things on TV, where people are just pummeling each other. And

that's maybe one tiny portion of the martial arts. But martial

arts are a very spiritual, very connected very, very

psychological endeavor, as is, I believe, any sport add at a

certain level. And so for me, it helps me be more present

oriented, it helps me when I'm practicing to just be in the

moment gets me in touch with my body and my breath. When you're

working with another person. Let me tell you that feedback comes

in lots of ways, but in the martial arts, it's very direct,

and sometimes quite painful, and you learn from it. So it's

helped me be present. It's helped me Listen, and people

think listening in the martial arts. You know, when you're

doing what you do in the martial arts, you have to pay acute

attention, and you're focused and listening to how somebody

moves, how they breathe, what their tendencies are, these are

all skills that helped me I believe, in my day to day life.

It also is a space where I do it for me, and it's a way of

recharging in revitalizing myself. So I have a whole lot of

benefit that comes to me personally, just like I think

anybody can find in any physical endeavor.

Very cool. Okay, tell me a little bit about the

books. And then tell me a little bit about your podcast.

Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity. So I've

written two books, the first book is speaking up without

freaking out, it really tries to help people find ways to manage

anxiety. Everybody is different. When it comes to anxiety. The

one thing that is true is most people feel anxiety when

speaking. And so the book is really designed to present

different options, tools and tactics that you can use, even

though they're 50. In the book, the hope is that three or four

will work for you, not everybody responds the same way. And then

the newest book, Think faster. Talk smarter is all about what

we started to speak on, which is how to speak better in the

moment. So the first part of the book is a methodology. It's a

methodology I developed to help our Stanford MBA students, but

it applies to everybody. And then the second part of the book

highlights very specific situations like we talked about

feedback and small talk, but also how do you make apologies?

How do you introduce yourself? How do you answer questions? So

these are all very specific, spontaneous speaking situations

that the book addresses. And then finally, the podcast Think

fast talk smart we we've been on air for almost four and a half

years now. We focus exclusively on communication. We're

sponsored by Stanford's Graduate School of Business 20 minute

episodes where I get to interview just amazing experts

in communication. And we talk about everything from how to be

persuasive, how to negotiate, negotiate, how to manage

conflict, how to brand yourself and actually position yourself

well, super fascinating, super fun. And I'm really excited that

we've won lots of prestigious awards. But we were also

nominated in one best dog walking podcast because we're

exactly 20 minutes. And apparently, that's how long

people walk their dogs.

That's awesome. What a great recognition.

Anything at all we have not spoken on or talked about that

you want to.

So there's one thing that's important, I think,

to think about and that is listening. Listening is actually

a really important communication skill, but it's actually

critical for spontaneous speaking. You know, I've talked

a lot about what we do to commute We get our messages out.

But we also have to listen to understand better what is needed

in the moment. We all don't listen that well, we listen just

enough to get the top level of what somebody is saying. So we

need to listen deeper, we need to listen for the bottom line,

not the top line, we need to listen not just to what's said,

but what's not said how it said where it said, and that can

actually influence how we respond. I'll give you a quick

example. Imagine you and I come out of a meeting and you say,

Hey, Matt, how do you think that went? If I'm just listening for

the top line, I say, Oh, she wants feedback. And I might

start diving into here are all the things we could have done

better hear the things that weren't great. But if I would

have listened more fully, I might have noticed you came out

the back door, not the front door, you spoke more quietly

than usual, you were looking down. All of this might clue me

into the fact that you really don't want feedback, what you

really want is support because you're not feeling that that

went well. So by listening more astutely for the bottom line, I

can respond better, and perhaps help our relationship rather

than hurting it.

Okay, this sounds like a preview to your

next book.

I don't know if there's a next book, but I

definitely am spending a lot of time talking about listening and

talking a lot about how to collaborate with people and

manage through conflicts and challenges that happen.

Man, thank you so much for being here. This has

been incredible. I've taken a page and a half a note. I hope

you didn't mind. And I just really appreciated your time and

willingness to share.

This was fun. I enjoyed the conversation very

much. It was lovely to chat with you. Thank you and I appreciate

the opportunity.