[00:00:00] Nick Danziger: As the day started to get darker and darker, I'm walking down the street.

Talking to me and you know, like, do you wanna come back to my place? And I was thinking, this is, this is too good to be true.

[00:00:23] Alex Melia: Welcome to Stories of Men Beneath the Surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Today we're digging into a lifetime spent adventuring, often in treacherous places, and the privilege involved in being a male traveler. Nick Danziger is an award-winning photographer, documenting people and places all over the world. His appetite for adventure started young when he was just 13, living with his family in Switzerland.

Nick was inspired by the exploits of tinting and all the great artists he admired. On spring evening in 1970, young Nick made an announcement to his parents at the dinner table.

[00:01:13] Nick Danziger: We're having this conversation and

I'm

of. Obviously at that age, you know, you don't have your passport, you don't have money, and also how was I gonna get there? But little did they know I really did have this plan and I felt that, you know, I could manage for a few days on what I was gonna put in my liquid Apple dried biscuits. One of the really important things that I, I, I took with me was a sketchpad, and little did I realize at the time that this was gonna be the way that I would end up surviving on the street.

I remember leaving home, walking out the door, and my parents weren't there to say goodbye because I thought if I say goodbye, they really will stop me. A new act changed trains. I worked out the train schedule. It was a night train. I knew I'd have to stay awake for most of that journey because I was worried about the ticket control cuz I didn't have a train ticket.

I felt I was going on a big adventure. There were some nerve nerves cuz you know, I was going into the unknown. I sat in the aisle seat on the first train cuz I knew that I needed to see when the ticket collector was gonna head towards my compartment. So when he was in the previous compartment and I could see him, I headed to the toilets and the secret was actually to go into the toilets and not.

The door cuz if I locked the door, what I noticed was with other passengers, they would knock on the door and ask for the ticket. So they either waited for the passenger to emerge or they would ask for the ticket to be passed under the door. The really difficult and most nervous point and that train journey was got how long do I remain in this bus cuz you know that people are gonna use the toilets.

Arriving in Paris, I think that that's when I, it hit me that I was there on my own, you know, this massive city. Get off the train. The, the train station alone was much bigger than any train station I've been to before. I remember walking out and just how busy it was, you know, with buses everywhere. And all I had in my head was, you know, go to the first museum.

You know, I had a list of kind of the museums I wanted to visit. I knew I had to be really careful how I spent, you know, my money, but it was just like a new world. I mean freedom, but mixed with kind of a, a lot of angst. When I got into the museum, it was, it's another kind of form of. Uh, Liberty, you know, you know, seeing all of these works of art that I'd never seen for real, I felt on a real high it.

It was just an amazing feeling. As the day started to get darker and darker, I'm walking down this really desolate looking street. It was getting cold, it was wet. And uh, this woman started talking to me and she was so kind and I thought, ah, this is really nice. You know, as of an impressionable 13 year old, she seems so attractive.

High heel, boots, a skirt, you know, very tight blouse, long hair. And there she was, you know, inviting me to her home you know, like, do you want to come back to my place? And I was thinking, this is, this is too good to be true, especially on a low budget. I see how kind of her, you know, out of the generosity of her heart, she's taken pity on me.

Walking around late at night in the rain next to what you know, was known at the time, is about the cheapest place you could find a room in Paris.

[00:04:55] Alex Melia: So at the end of meeting this woman, how did it go after that? How was the conversation exchange? How did you end that with her?

[00:05:01] Nick Danziger: What I realized as time progressed, you know, she wasn't alone on women propositioning men as they went by. That's when the reality dawned on me that it, it wasn't outta the kindness of her heart that she was inviting me back to her place.

Only then much later on dawned on me that she was a sex worker. Further down the road, I met other women. That's when it really became clear to me that they had other intentions and that I'd been very, very naive in that initial conversation. I suppose, you know, as a 13 year old, you know, maybe that's what a 13 year old is, but I think they're more street savvy today.

And I went back to my, my little squa. Room, which was gonna be the last night, actually spent two nights in that squalled room. And then, then it was out into the, uh, hiding in, in the parks.

[00:05:59] Alex Melia: Did you meet anyone else like that? Did you meet any other characters along your journey? I

[00:06:04] Nick Danziger: was always nervous about meeting people.

You know, people came up to me. Uh, one of the ways that I was able to survive was drawing sketches and obviously sketches of tourist monuments. So most people were, were very friendly. What was I doing? They were interested in the sketches that I was making, but there was always a corner of me that was a little bit, you know, suspicious or nervous of, of people who came up, you know, to speak to me.

So that was self-generated and uh, I think just I was trying to be, you know, very careful, you know, my own personal security. I mean, I think about it today. You know, I don't think I'd have let my. Any of my children age 13 off on their own in similar circumstances.

[00:06:51] Alex Melia: That was going to going to be my next question.

If you had the same scenario played back to you, how would you feel about it? Well,

[00:06:57] Nick Danziger: my kids keep on saying to me when I say, oh, you can't do this, you can't do that. And they say, but dad, you went off age 13. Why can't I do this? You know, they all have ideas of also going away, you know, and um, so I think the adventure aspect is there, but I think, you know, the world probably has changed and.

Indeed a bit less secure. But I was still, I, you know, there were times I was, I was pretty nervous. So to say that it was all just, uh, fun, uh, was not the case. I, I was often suspicious of people who came up to me. And indeed, when my money ran out, I ended up sleeping, uh, in a park. And I made sure that I was really well hidden.

Cause I, I was afraid, and that was an uncomfortable feeling. I mean, it's very difficult. Cause subsequently, now that I have kids, I mean I do go into conflict zones. I go into areas where particularly, you know, white foreigners are being kidnapped. So both my wife and I, she, she is a humanitarian aid worker.

So we, we often, as the kids were growing up, keep them away from certain news items cuz we know something has happened in the world that they will think, oh, next time mom and dad or you know, one of us goes off on a mission that, This could before us. So we're very careful as to, as they were growing up, what they did here and didn't hear.

But unfortunately, my early adventures, they were very aware of it from an early age as well. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:24] Alex Melia: And this is the problem, I suppose, with the internet nowadays and the access to information that kids have got. It's probably a lot more than when. I was a child when you were a child and, and other people.

It's quite difficult to filter that, isn't it?

[00:08:37] Nick Danziger: I think today with social media, you know, they see so much of the world, but it's not the reality and, and so often people think, what I do today, oh, isn't it fantastic? You go to all these places. But the reality on the ground is so very different. And my, I, myself, I'm still, today, I get really nervous.

I'm in situations where I say, Never again. You know, I think about the family, I realize just how selfish it's been because you know, if you disappear, you're, I mean, I'm an uninvited guess. I don't have to go into these situations. But indeed, you know, I'm drawn back and back again. And I guess, you know, part of that is as far back as I can remember.

From that journey, it's been something that's always been there. It, it, it continues to be discovering new cultures and languages and ways of living. And I guess also focusing on, on vulnerable and marginalized communities. I think of sex workers. A lot of my work today isn't a way, um, to give them a voice, you know, to support, unfortunately, sometimes why they've ended up having to enter that type of work.

Hmm.

[00:09:50] Alex Melia: What I wanted to ask you is, if you'd not done this journey when you were 13 to Paris, do you think you'd be doing what you were doing now or do you think it was a, you think you were always going to do this and this was just a catalyst that really just propelled you

[00:10:01] Nick Danziger: forward? I think there's no question of a doubt that that first journey just incited me to go off and off and off again.

I mean, I came home, my parents obviously furious, but I think you know, it, it was moderated. You know, I think there were. They were happy to have me home. So, you know, the idea of being really angry was, was tempered. I, I remember them not, you know, I was expecting the worst and I think it could have been a lot worse.

What did they do? They, they stopped my pocket money. They were very careful, but it didn't prevent me for going on subsequent adventures. And so obviously I wouldn't have gone on those subsequent trips had I not had this. Extraordinary first journey and it really, I think, was the catalyst to propel me to go further and further afield.

And since I can remember, everything has been geared to, you know, even today, you know, going to foundations, looking for funds to go off and seek a way to, to show others how people elsewhere in the world live. We only have one home and it's an extraordinary planet and the diversity we should be celebrating.

And every time I go away, I learn so much from the people I visit, and it's been humbling to want to discover more about who we are as as human beings and people. And for all the horrible things I see and all the difficulties I meet such remarkable people. When you

[00:11:31] Alex Melia: work in another country that's not your own foreign country, you'll learn at three times the rate at which you would be working back in your home country.

Have you ever felt like that over the years that your, your learning has just accelerated much more so than if you were in England or you're in Switzerland? Well,

[00:11:48] Nick Danziger: one of the amazing things about travel is that it just extends your horizons, not just geographically, but the way you think, the way you take on.

And see the world, you know, it's, it's mind expanding. It's, it's incredible to think just how many different ways we live. I think we all aspire to very similar goals in life, but how we achieve those peace, autonomy, freedom, all the things that we aspire to, there are different ways of achieving. What we want to achieve in the world.

And I think it's just, it's so unfortunate that the world is so divided, not just politically, but economically, that so much of the world today is living in circumstances that coming from a white, privileged European background is just not the case for the majority of the planet. And. You know, I'd so believe in that universal declaration of human rights that, you know, we're all born equal in rights and dignity, but it's just not true.

It depends where you're born on this planet, when and to whom, and just to think, wow, just cuz I was born in that place at a certain time with the parents I had, it's just given me the opportunities that I have today. I think it's just incredible to think that so much depends on where you were born, when and to whom.

It's like, you know, deck of cards and it's, it's not just chance and, and it, what's unfair, so really unfair is that the deck of cards are stacked. You know, it's just, in some places it's just gonna be that much harder and it's humbling to see what people go through to, to survive. And it makes me think it's not just, just where we're born.

I mean, it's also our gender. I mean, in so many places I travel to the fact that I'm a man. You know, it makes just such a difference. I mean, people go on about Afghanistan and the lack of rights for girls and women, but in Northwestern Pakistan, when I'm in the streets there, I don't even see a woman in the streets.

There. There are tribal areas that's called fatter in Northwest Pakistan. I mean, it it, it's frightening to think today just the inequalities that exist in the world based. On the color of your skin, based on your beliefs, based on your economic circumstances. And those words of Martin Luther King keep coming back to me where you know he wants his four children not to be judged on the color of his skin, but on the content of his character.

And I can only tell you. You know, after all of the travels over decades across the world, I can't even think of the amount of countries I've been to. You know, there's one thing that's for sure that it's the content of people's character. There are great people everywhere I've been who deserve so much more, and in my poor little way is, you know, if I can give a voice through my photography and documentary films and books to.

To them. You know, that's, that's, you know, what I would like to do. But I hate even our Western centric, you know, it's all based around who you are. I know that I can, you know, get my foot in the door of media organizations cause the name is recognizable. And even that I think is unfair. You know, why, why do I get to put the foot in the door when someone might have a better story?

It might have stronger pictures than mine, but you know, the editor doesn't recognize that person's name. And I'm not saying, you know, we gotta beat and knock down all the doors, but you know, we tend in life to always defend our own position and that makes it so much harder for everyone else. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:49] Alex Melia: And when I'm going to different countries as well, and people from all different walks of life, different religions, different skin colors.

I'm constantly reminding myself about like you say, the content of their character. And I mean, I, I think that that's something I've always tried to do anyway, cuz I've always been aware of how lucky I am to be white English speaking male from the uk. But when you meet. Certain people who've got this. For me, it's, it's, it's in the eyes, it's the, the zest for life, the, the excitement for life.

And, and when you get speaking to them and they tell you about the books they're reading or the people they've met, that really brings out to me is like, wow, I really wanna get to know this person more. And it could be all different kinds of people, all people, young people. And you know, if you're constantly exploring and trying to find.

Those people, instead of just being in the, the typical sort of tourist spots, if you kind of venture out, you will meet those people. And you know that you are meeting those people all the time, year on year for what, however many decades. Four decades, five decades you've been

doing

[00:16:50] Nick Danziger: this? Yeah. I mean I've been so lucky cuz I think just it's been a window into other people's lives.

But when I saw other people, it could be a heart transplant surgeon, it could be a minor. Looking for gold in one of the most extreme corners of our planet. It can be sex workers. It can be so many varieties of peoples, and it's just been this extraordinary position of privilege, not just to meet you people, but everything that they do.

There's such an vast monopoly of, of people across the world that are carrying out, you know? Daily tasks that help us continue to function. And, and sadly the truth be told is that, you know, the majority of the world's resources come from the global south. And you know, they're the ones without the wherewithal to purchase what they would like to have or even have a basic standard of living or quality of life, which I would say would be access to healthcare, access to education.

And yet they're the ones providing. Us with a, an incredible standard of living. If we look at the global average,

[00:18:03] Alex Melia: I'm curious as to what your mentality was when you were 13 and what your outlook on life was. And I'm curious, when you were 13, did you have that feeling of I'm a man now, even though you're not, but you have this feeling of, I'm a man and, and I can go about the world and there's no dangers out there.

What, what sorts of little boy were

[00:18:19] Nick Danziger: you, you know, growing up I felt. Pretty invincible, but that may be a lot of teenagers. You know, nothing can stop you. There's no question as, as a boy, I was yet to be even a man. But I just felt that I was really fortunate. I think now I'm much more aware that I'm, I've been really fortunate to have been born a man and so many of my stories have now featured.

Uh, women in vulnerable positions, uh, a project called Women Facing War, for example. But I think there's no question of a doubt that my gender allowed me to do so much of what I've done up, up to now, really, and e and, and then even continue to do, and, and I, and I think something that I haven't really ever spoken about, but I mean, I think with those privileges, it just, it made me understand.

Not just those privileges of, of gender and class, but it, it pushed me on to look further afield. I mean, age 17, I, I ended up in Bolivia going down a bivian mine, and I think then that really, I, I, I think rage then, I, I mean, again, gender. I mean the, the, there were boys younger than me then working in the mines, stripped down to their underwear.

No protective clothing. Most didn't. Now, they, they wouldn't allow me in the mine unless I wore the protective clothing and, and a headlamp so I could see ahead of me. They were, they were pushing these kind of chariots full of, of the raw rock up to the surface. And, and th this is where I realized that, you know, uh, I had privilege on top of privilege.

And I, and I wanna mention gender because it, it also feels pretty emaciated. It's the opposite. Rather than feel. An additional power, I felt almost emasculated by it because you just feel like, well, this isn't, you know, this isn't right. And, and there the tragedy was that the men were dying of silicosis.

They would breathe in this, this dust, their lungs would end up. Uh, unfortunately curtailing their lives. And the women in this, this village were, were often widowed because the husbands had died because of theosis. And yet again, you saw the vulnerability of women, they were powerless. So that's actually kind of emasculating.

You think this is yet another unfair privilege kind of layer upon layer. So in a sense, I think. It, it, it's, it's, it's been really difficult and it's doubly difficult hearing those stories cuz you feel in, in the cases of, of so much violence. It, it's men perpetuating the violence. I mean, I've, I've, I've met, I mean, uh, you're in Latin America and I've met female fighters from the e n in Colombia, for example.

Um, and. You know, but you listen to their stories as well, and, and, and you can see that they're, they're struggling as well for social justice. So, you know, if a woman's taken up arms, it's usual for social justice. It, it's not for power. There's another dynamic there. So I think that's really interesting and, and what I've so often found is, you know, women get not only victimized once, but you know, they get re-victimized as a result of something that's already happened to them.

So in cases of sexual violence, they, they then can't return to their community, their villages because they have been seen in some way to have, you know, breached the norm. They're not the victims. And yet, you know, not only have they been a victim, but they're re-victimized.

[00:22:09] Alex Melia: It's just this vicious cycle that goes round and round again.

And you think to yourself, well, we're in 2023, the progress is just not being made. The thing

[00:22:17] Nick Danziger: that I keep knocking my head is like, you know, When do we learn, you know, it's like the 21st century and some of the wars that have taken place. It's just history repeating itself. Why haven't the politicians read the history books?

Why haven't we less learned the lessons from the past? Why are we repeating the same errors? Why are we doing the same things that continue not only to repress others, but they come back to haunt us if we don't live in a balanced. Well, we know that eventually we will suffer the circumstances. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:52] Alex Melia: The last point I want to talk about today, Nick, is more of a lighter topic, I suppose, is how smart and savvy you were as a 13 year old to get around the ticket conductor and dodge the ticket Fair.

Because it, I've heard about friends even at college and university who were hiding in the bathroom, but they would lock the door. So I've never heard of this. The story before where you actually keep the door open and I just find that really creative for someone so young. I think I became

[00:23:19] Nick Danziger: savvy fairly early on because obviously, you know, invention well needs is the mother of invention and um, I shouldn't really go into it here, but you know, trains was only the beginning then went onto planes until I was 16 when my dad said, enough is enough.

You know, you could get arrested for this. And I remember he gave me an inter rail pass. Being American, I think it was a hundred dollars. And I said, you know, how am I gonna man manage on a hundred dollars? And he said, if you've managed on nothing, you do very well on a hundred dollars. But I mean, the reality is that I think I've gone on from that.

I want a Churchill Fellowship to follow ancient trade routes to China. I was heading off to, to China along the ancient silk roads, and this was in 1984 when there was the war between Iran and Iraq, and the Soviet Union was in Afghanistan and they. They said to me, well, how many have you got visas for these countries?

And I said, no. And they said, well, you're telling us you want to, you know you, you wanna leave next week? And I said, yeah, yeah. They said, well, how you gonna manage? And I said, I'm sure I will. I don't need any visas. And in fact, I made that journey all the way from Eastern Europe all the way to China without any visas crossed a border that haven't been crossed since 1949.

I mean, I think, you know, part of what I've done, I mean, I started by saying, you know, obviously that journey had a great impact on my life and was a catalyst. But I love football and I always supported Chelsea and I had a fake press card. And when I show up at a game, I, I realize I had this incredible opportunity to be down there on the touch line.

And I remember. The way to do it was like, you know, I, I'd pretend that I was from National Press and they, they'd look for the press parts and they said, and French accent go, oh, dunno how you say, but, They send me here and there is no possibility. That is not possible. Is, uh, uh, I, I, sorry, but, uh, how you, and I'm trying to get them to help me with a, and then in the end it was like, oh, well, yeah, I mean, um, and they'd gimme the pass and I'd go down on the touch line and I went with this camera that my uncle had, had given me as a present cuz he knew I was interested in photography.

And, and then I thought, wow, with a camera, look at the opportunities that you have. To have another view on life, and I've only just thought of that now, but it was all, yeah, I mean, it was this adventure, but just thinking what is the end goal? How do I. It's often opened up in incredible corridors and and doors.

What

[00:26:04] Alex Melia: a story is all about adventure, and it's something that I've always tried to do in my own life. I've thought about why I enjoyed the episode so much, and it's because Nick broke all the rules. About what's accepted and what's not. Imagine a 13 year old today upping sticks and going on a solo trip to Paris.

I've always been defiant since being a child just like Nick was. Probably the reason why I've got my own business now. Why I was sacked from so many jobs when I was younger. I can really relate to Nick's travels whilst he was on his way to Paris because from the age of 16 to 21, I used to repeatedly dodge the ticket conductor on the trains.

Whilst going to and from college and university, I had this cheeky sort of Del Boy persona. And I just thrived off the idea of breaking rules and getting away with things. Looking back on this, in some ways, I'm not proud of what I did, but I realized that it was a real act, rebellion on my part, creating strategies, determination, grit.

Putting the work in, whatever you want to call it. These are all traits that have helped me with creating and developing and growing my own business. Talking about male privilege earlier, I feel like if Nick was a girl, I think he would've been far less likely to have done this solo trip. I went through a lot of my life not realizing how privileged I am to be a man, and this is something that I absolutely took for granted.

However, that same male privilege has bit me on the ass on quite a few occasions, one of which I documented in one of our episodes, uh, which I talked about my own story called Processing Trauma, if you'd like to listen to that, where I got attacked in Oaxaca, in Mexico. This whole concept of male privilege was

Brought up again to me. Last week I was out with three female friends and we were having food together and they were talking about when they walk outside solo, they get cat called. They get all sorts of negative comments from men, but when they walk outside with another man or a group of people, they don't receive any comments whatsoever.

What a world it is that women can't walk outside solo. Lastly, from speaking to Nick, I felt a real kinship to him and I felt it as almost, he was like a role model to me. Nick has gone through his life defying rules, and I think rules are obviously there for a reason. In some cases they're really important, but in some ways I think there's almost too much bureaucracy with rules.

I. And Nick is the kind of person who just defied those rules and went ahead and did whatever the hell he wanted to do with his

[00:28:33] Nick Danziger: life.