TWO GABRIELLA

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, in a very warm welcome to Season five, episode 13 of People's Soup. It's Ross Macintosh.

[00:00:05] Gabriella: but they do say, leave your problems at home.

[00:00:09] Gabriella: don't bring your emotions to work. Be rational. We can't. We are all that we are and we bring all that we are, and that is for good and for bad, our emotions help us at work. But I think first of all, understanding that you can't just leave it aside and it's not gonna help you anyway. I think then actually, also understanding that we are not coherent, that we have lots of different parts of us and they can get in a bit of conflict with each other.

[00:00:43] Gabriella: That's all part of being human, peace Supers. I'm recording this introduction in our hotel room in Dublin as I'm working near here tomorrow.

[00:00:52] Ross: As usual, I'm under the covers to give you the best audio experience and it's actually a new bank holiday today in Ireland, honoring St. Bridget. This day was originally a pre-Christian festival called Bol Mark. In the beginning of spring, it signaled an end to the darkness of winter and ushered in a new season of hope and growth.

[00:01:12] Ross: St. Bridget is one of the patrons Saints of Ireland, and a pretty inspirational woman by all account.

[00:01:18] Ross: Which all takes me to another inspirational woman whose book offers hope and growth for us all in this episode called All That We Are. I continue my chat with Gabriella Braun. We talk about the writing process. How the book evolved and how she kept going when there was nothing left in the tank. You'll hear my review and also some snippets of reviews from the Financial Times, and Mary Claire, you'll also find out how the former England Cricket Captain Mike Braley was involved in the book.

[00:01:46] Ross: People [00:02:00] Super is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you gloat to work a bit more often.

[00:02:09] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk reviews RN for part one of our chat with Gabriella. I shared this episode in our WhatsApp group and there were some great reflections. One said, Lovely. Just had our listen as I putted around now ready for part two.

[00:02:24] Ross: And another friend reflected. Great. Listen, Gabriella is a very interesting woman. Love the comment. Where would you like to start? Rather than What do you want to be? Thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed. Talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast. With your help, we can reach more people with stuff that could be.

[00:02:44] Ross: But for now, get aru on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Gabriella Braun

[00:02:50]

[00:02:54] Ross: I'm a super fan of your book. Let's just remind everyone of the title all that we are uncovering the Hidden Truths behind our Behavior at Work, and it is out in paperback on the

[00:03:07] Gabriella: 2nd of February.

[00:03:09] Ross: So on the 2nd of February, the first episode will land.

[00:03:14] Gabriella: Oh, fantastic.

[00:03:15] Ross: and I've got my review for you, which you haven't heard. Let me just get my bit of paper. , a revelatory guide to understanding human beings at work. Discussing workplace issues must be one of the top topics for human conversations.

[00:03:31] Ross: In today's workplace the context is very rarely static, and we don't always consider or notice how we're showing up, the impact of our behavior on ourselves, and more importantly, the impact we have on others. In this book, Gabriella helps us to understand these complex issues through the lens of psychoanalytic and systemic thinking.

[00:03:52] Ross: The stories are woven in such a way to make them immediately accessible and relatable. Gabriella brings her consulting [00:04:00] conversations to life with humanity, curiosity, and an exquisite eye for detail. For example, The book is enriched through sentences like.

[00:04:09] Ross: " he fiddled with his red tie, which matched the red laces in his dark blue shoes." It's that sort of detail that just made my heart sing it. It just gave me an extra layer of appreciation. Gabriella also shares her own inner dialogue, which again is infused with that openness and humanity. Gabriella peels back the layers to help us understand the fundamentals of our minds and our potential for destructive behavior.

[00:04:36] Ross: And at its heart, this is a book about curiosity and hope. The more we can understand ourselves and each other in the workplace, the more we can recognize the shared human condition and elevate our connection, cooperation, and compassion. Bravo.

[00:04:53] Gabriella: Ross, you've given me goosebumps. I've got goosebumps. That is such a glorious review. Thank you so much. What a lovely, lovely review. And also you've completely got what I was doing.

[00:05:08] Ross: it touched me in, in so many ways. Gabriella, I'd like to say Craigy, thank you for writing this book, and, and thank you for coming on the show. I, like I say, I'm, I'm in at an embarrassing level. I'm a, I'm just such a super fan.

[00:05:22] Gabriella: That's so lovely. Thank you so much.

[00:05:26] Ross: Now, I wonder if you'd take us back, you talked a little bit last time about how the contract was signed in sort of February, 2020 when the pandemic might have just been an inkling for us. there was something going on somewhere else. Was it gonna impact us? but maybe take us to the before stages of that.

[00:05:47] Ross: when was the seed planted that started to blossom or, grow to, write this book?

[00:05:53] Gabriella: Well, if we leave aside the early seeds of my own work experience, as [00:06:00] a consultant,

[00:06:01] Poor at taking it out into the world

[00:06:01] Gabriella: I became very preoccupied with the idea that people like me, and there aren't many of us who apply psychoanalysis to looking at the workplace. but people like me are really poor at taking this out into the world. I mean, how many workplaces would think you could apply psychoanalytic thinking? very, very few. And yet it's got such relevance because I, I believe it's the most sophisticated method we have for really understanding the complexity of human nature. . And that to me is incredibly important in understanding and improving the workplace. So I got really preoccupied with why are we so bad at taking it out into the world? And that led me to this bright idea where I thought, I'm going to put on a seminar series and it's about what's leadership got to do with psychoanalysis or the other way around. I can't remember. And I had all these different seminars.

[00:07:08] Gabriella: what's aggression? Leadership and aggression. What's it got to do with it? Leadership and persecution? Leadership and love leadership. And. a whole range of different seminars. And I put them on for, I think it was two and a half hours after work. People could come to one or to all eight of them.

[00:07:29] Gabriella: it was entirely up to them. And people came who knew nothing about psychoanalysis, never heard of me, never heard of working well, and they came along and they loved the stories and they loved the psychoanalytic theory. And I quite quickly thought, there's a book in this. this. is a book. So that's where that immediately started from.

[00:07:52] Gabriella: I was laughably naive I did do nine seminars. I did two [00:08:00] series, and then I did a project with further education leaders. Which was the seminars. but a whole day and in the afternoon we'd really apply it to those leaders and their work.

[00:08:11] The writing retreat

[00:08:11] Gabriella: And then in 2014, I went off on a writing retreat to start writing this book.

[00:08:18] Gabriella: And I thought, well, it's easy. I've got nine seminars. So each seminar is a chapter. Huh? It didn't quite work like that. It so didn't work like that.

[00:08:31] Gabriella: what I learned quite quickly was that I had to learn to write. So you picking out the, the example of the sentences with a lot of detail, I really learned that and I really. Huge attention to the craft of writing. And I got very excited about the craft and I started reading about writing fiction and, you know, use some of the techniques, I suppose of fiction, like that kind of detail where you, you appeal to the readers different senses.

[00:09:05] Gabriella: So you might include a visual thing or a smell or something that you are not only talking to their head, but you are talking to their emotions, which I really wanted to do because I thought that's what this book's about. and I'm absolutely not writing an academic book. I need to really engage the reader at an emotional level, not just a head level, not just an intellect level.

[00:09:29] Many iterations

[00:09:29] Gabriella: So I, I spent the book, went through very many iterations. the final version, well, , the bit that in the end became a proposal and sample chapters that got me a deal with my lovely publisher. I thought of as version 5.5, but only cuz I couldn't bear to tell myself it was version six It was at least version six. So that, that's how it happened. And I, I had a writing mentor [00:10:00] for years who basically taught me to write, yeah, it was a long journey.

[00:10:04] Ross: Hmm. It's so interesting to hear about the craft behind it and the, the inclusion of those details. Whether it's your details of emerging from a tube station and going for a coffee before a meeting with a team. It just really brings it to life and kind of cinema scope.

[00:10:21] Gabriella: Oh, That is lovely to hear. And I really. got interested in doing that. The version one was nothing like this, and it was written specifically for leaders, and I moved away from that. what I then also did, which was a complete surprise to me after I'd got the deal with my publisher, when I put in the proposal, I had no idea.

[00:10:41] Gabriella: I knew I'd include some of my thinking as a consultant. I had no idea that I'd include all that, biography or memoir. And it was when under lockdown, I was trying to write,

[00:10:55] Belonging

[00:10:55] Gabriella: and I got to the chapter at the end of part one of the three parts of the book, which is belonging. And I saw I'd put a title called Belonging in my chapter, outlines to the publisher.

[00:11:06] Gabriella: I didn't know what the hell I was really writing, and then I suddenly thought, why don't I try this from first person? , why don't I have a go at my belonging? And I wrote to my editor and said, what do you think of me trying it as first person? She said, good idea. Give it a go. And that was a very pivotal moment actually, because that was really my story.

[00:11:28] Gabriella: And then I included a lot of myself to the point where I worried whether I'd be able to work anymore because I'd revealed so much about myself.

[00:11:39] Ross: Mm. Be because you, you do talk about when things were going well or when you were. feeling quite perplexed about whether you were adding value or whether you were the right person.

[00:11:50] Gabriella: that Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Which I wouldn't tell clients in that way. But even more than that, some of the [00:12:00] chapters, you know, like my history, like my mum having bipolar, like Holocaust background in the family, I would never tell clients that. So I literally, at one point I thought, oh my God, I dunno if I'll be able to do this work in this way anymore. And then decided, well, this is what the book needs and I'll see about the work. If I can't do it in this way, I can't do it in this way, but prioritizing the book.

[00:12:26] Ross: And just going back to when you were saying that, people aren't very good at promoting the psychoanalytic approach to organizations. And my confession is, I didn't really know about this. It was very much on the periphery of my thinking. And this is someone who works in organizations as a psychologist.

[00:12:44] Gabriella: There you go. That's, it's not a confession from you. I think it's a indictment of people like me that it's not known out there.

[00:12:53] Ross: well, I've got a kind of parallel story is I, I lecture at City University of London in organizational psychology. And I was getting really frustrated that there were organizations collapsing, leadership was failing. enormous organizations were just disappearing. And in the news and the interviews, they never talked to a, a psychologist.

[00:13:16] Gabriella: Hmm.

[00:13:17] Ross: and I gave this little lecture saying, come on, you are the future organizational psychologist to bang the drum. one of them said to me, well, what are you doing to bang the drum mate? And I said, oh no. And that, um, four-ish years ago, set me on the road to doing a podcast,

[00:13:34] Gabriella: Oh, how

[00:13:35] Ross: trying to make some noise that could bring the type of behavioral science that's my specialty,

[00:13:40] Gabriella: Yeah,

[00:13:41] Ross: trying to get it to a wider audience, but trying to get people to think what richness things like behavioral science and psychoanalytic approaches and systemic thinking can bring to organizations to help us understand properly the most complex environments [00:14:00] that we have in our lives.

[00:14:01] Gabriella: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And, and we just, , ignore all of that. And that was, absolutely it for me as well. I wanted to bring it to a wider audience and make it accessible because it can be made accessible and people are often very fascinated by it

[00:14:20] Ross: It, it's, it's like I said in my review, Gabriella, that

[00:14:23] Ross: I dunno what the percentage might be of conversations we have as humans, but so many of them will be like, oh. And he turned to me and said this, and I said, you can't do that. And people are meeting with their friends and talking about what's happened at work

[00:14:37] Gabriella: all the time because we spend so much of our lives there.

[00:14:41] Ross: and this is just a super useful resource to help. understand, but also have perhaps more productive conversations with our friends or, or start to think about these theories and how they might apply to the workplace.

[00:14:54] Gabriella: Yes, exactly.

[00:14:55] Ross: it's so powerful. And during the course of writing, were there moments when you just thought, oh, I'm gonna give up.

[00:15:04] Ross: I can't, I can't do this anymore? Or, or was there always that, that spark within you?

[00:15:09] Gabriella: well, your, deep sigh, um, reminded me, a couple of moments like that. I mean, there were, there were certainly plenty of times when I thought, oh God, I can't, I'm just stuck. I'm stuck. But I'd come, it wasn't, I can't do this anymore. It was, I'm stuck now and I'd come out of the stuck now. But I did get to a point where, There were two chapters that I hadn't done.

[00:15:34] A confession

[00:15:34] Gabriella: one of them was, I mean, actually this is a confession. They were two chapters. I hadn't even put in the proposal. And as I was writing the book and getting on with the book, I suddenly thought, oh my God, I haven't got a chapter on succession. And it's such a major issue in organizations, and I haven't got a chapter on difference.

[00:15:57] Gabriella: How can I not have a chapter on difference? [00:16:00] And I said to my agent, you know, I've, I've come up with two new chapters, or I said to my editor anyway, they were like, fine, go with it. but I had been working and working in phenomenally hard and I had to go at the succession one. It. Really took the last bits of energy and resource I had.

[00:16:20] Gabriella: But I did it. And then I tried the difference one, and I thought, I've haven't got any more in the tank. I can't do it. I can't write another word. and I wrote to my agent and I said, I can't do it. And I was so naive again about the publishing process, and I said to her, I'll have to add it on later down the line.

[00:16:43] Gabriella: Maybe when it's already with the publisher. I cannot do it now. And my agent who's great, she said, no, you can't do that. You can tweak it when it's with the publisher. You can't add a whole new chapter when it's with the publisher. I didn't even know that. And she really helpfully, she said, why don't you. think about what it is that you want to do and what's blocking you, and let's have a conversation about that. So that was really helpful and really supportive. And actually I didn't take her up on the conversation because something happened to me that I thought, okay, I've just gotta do it. So I did, it nearly killed me.

[00:17:24] Gabriella: I thought it was the bee's knees. I sent it to her, my agent, who by then, cuz she was gonna read the whole thing before it went to the editor. by then she'd read everything. So I wouldn't normally send her chapter by chapter. I sent her each of the three parts. but this one she hadn't seen. So I sent her this one and she has made a huge difference to this chapter.

[00:17:45] Gabriella: she wrote back to me and she said, it's a really good first draft. And I was, and I, I thought, Oh my God. A first draft. Oh [00:18:00] no. And she said, you know, you need to do this you need to make this a chapter that's part of your book. This is too much at the moment. The sort of thing you'd find in other books.

[00:18:14] Gabriella: This has got to be relevant to your book and it's got to have longevity. I mean, it made absolute sense. But basically I had to start again on that chapter so A, I thought I couldn't write that chapter and B, when she said it's the first draft, I nearly fell under the table . I

[00:18:32] Gabriella: dunno, my God. But I'm so grateful to her because actually I'm very proud of that chapter now, and it is very different from other chapters on difference in discrimination, very different.

[00:18:43] Gabriella: and that's, that's thanks to her.

[00:18:45] Ross: Wow. It, it's so great to, to hear about these, these moments in the process. And when did the title emerge?

[00:18:54] Gabriella: Ah, that was also, that was connected to the agent. So it was called, it was called various things, but the last thing it was called, when I propose to the get the literary agent, which you do before you go to a publisher, that you don't go to the publisher, the agent goes to the publishers. I sent it to the literary agent, the proposal with the title being Human at Work, and we agreed that she'd become my agent.

[00:19:20] Gabriella: She was very excited. I was very excited, and she said, oh, one thing, title's not right. that is like a subtitle. She said, you need a title that speaks more to the narrative nature of your. Um, and this isn't it, so that was Christmas. I got my agent, just before Christmas, 2019. so over Christmas I did the bits that she said.

[00:19:47] Gabriella: There wasn't much to do. I was very lucky. but the main thing was thinking for title and I thought of things. And at the beginning of the year,

[00:19:55] It might be genius

[00:19:55] Gabriella: I sent her a couple of possibilities, and she was like, yeah, it's the right [00:20:00] direction, but no. And then suddenly I got it and I wrote to her. She said, I'm very happy with that. And I also, I'd been going, which I didn't mention earlier on, but I'd been seeing Mike Brearley, who was the president of the British Institute of Psychoanalysis for a while, but also, Some people will know. Mike Brearley was a very well known captain of England Cricket a long time ago. Um, reputedly the best captain of England Cricket cuz he was so good with people and went on to become a psychoanalyst.

[00:20:33] Gabriella: And I'd gone to him to consult to me about the seminar series I ran because I thought, well I'm not, I'm trained to use psychoanalysis in the workplace, but I'm not a clinician. I need someone to check

[00:20:46] Ross: Hmm.

[00:20:46] Gabriella: I'm getting this right. And Mike was wonderful and he stayed the course as I was writing the book. and I wrote to him and said, this is the title I've come up with.

[00:20:59] Gabriella: And he wrote back and he said, I think it might be genius. Four small words. I think it might be genius. And I thought, well, Mike Brearley telling me it might be genius. I'll take that.

[00:21:10] Ross: Yeah. I love that.

[00:21:11] Gabriella: I'll have that. Yes.

[00:21:13] Ross: Wow.

[00:21:14] Gabriella: And I've been really pleased with the title. You know how sometimes you think something's or I think something's great, and then a month or a week or even a day later, I think, no, but this, I've stayed really happy with this title.

[00:21:28] Ross: And I tell you, it, it, it's so impactful because of the cover image and the font,

[00:21:34] Gabriella: I know

[00:21:35] Ross: it's kind of, it's kind of magic how it all works.

[00:21:39] Gabriella: they did it superbly. And actually we put in, so the agent went to submission to publishers with the title All that we are and the subtitle being Human at Work. And my publisher, when they did a press release, I noticed that they left off the subtitle and I said, oh, well aren't we having that? And my editor said, you can use it for now [00:22:00] by all.

[00:22:01] Gabriella: but I think we're gonna come up with something better. I think we'll find something better. And we came to this with the help one of the wonderful things about a publisher, so I had a lovely, you know, creative back and forth emailing with me agent, my agent and my editor about possible subtitles at one point.

[00:22:20] Gabriella: And it went to the publisher's marketing and sales people. And they said, no, we can't sell that. That's not all right. and my editor said, oh, I'm really sorry. And I was thinking, no, don't apologize. This is great to get this professional input at this point from, yeah, marketing, sales, and publicity.

[00:22:42] Gabriella: So the three of us had another toss around and we came to uncovering the hidden truths behind our behavior at work, and then the marketing. and salespeople said, yep, we can do that.

[00:22:53] Ross: Isn't it interesting the skill of these people at each stage in

[00:22:57] Ross: the process?

[00:22:58] Gabriella: Exactly. And then it went to design for the cover and my editor briefed, the designer I had, was given three options, you know, when the designer had done the job and this was far and away. my editor, when she sent me the three options, she said, we all have a strong preference, but see what you think.

[00:23:20] Gabriella: A And it was like when I saw this, it was, oh my God, that's brilliant. Absolutely. And my agent also was delighted with it.

[00:23:29] Ross: hmm. It's, it's, it's so strong. It speaks to. just wanted to go and pick it

[00:23:34] Gabriella: Yeah. Um, and book shops really like it. They say, oh, this really stands out. It's great.

[00:23:41] Ross: so how is the book being received? I've read some fabulous reviews on, on your website, and I'll make sure all these links are, in the show notes. But how's it been received

[00:23:51] Gabriella: I I really, really must update the website because actually for the paperback, it is been received with, I mean, [00:24:00] incredibly, lovely touching, delightful and proud making, reviews real critical acclaim So I'm completely delighted by that and by all sorts of a lovely range. So on the paperback version, on the front cover, it's at the top.

[00:24:20] Gabriella: Compassionate and discerning from Gwen Adshead who wrote The Devil, you know, which is a wonderful, wonderful book. And at the bottom that was on the Hard Back, but at the bottom it's Julia Hobsbawm author of The Nowhere Office, which is just so of the moment. Julia was ahead of the moment in writing.

[00:24:40] Gabriella: that. and she's written, I couldn't believe it when I saw this. She's written one of the most important books about the workplace ever published.

[00:24:48] Gabriella: mean,

[00:24:49] Ross: Drop the mic.

[00:24:50] Gabriella: yes, yes, yes. And then on the back, the Financial Times got behind it. They've been completely wonderful. So on the back cover it starts, A remarkable book, it will move you and awaken a new respect for your colleagues and even your employer.

[00:25:07] Gabriella: Braun moves effortlessly between memoir and professional insights, and the result is like all workplace dramas. Gripping.

[00:25:16] Gabriella: and at the bottom of that, it's Marie Claire uk and I love that the juxtaposition of the financial times of Marie Claire and Mary Claire have said, essential reading for anyone who's ever felt rattled by workplace dynamics. And then inside there's two pages of wonderful blurb.

[00:25:35] Ross: wow. My goodness.

[00:25:37] Gabriella: all modesty, as you see there's no trace of modesty, I'm afraid. I'm boasting. So delighted and proud.

[00:25:46] Ross: as you, you should be. I'm, I'm delighted. You're, you're making this impact and bringing your discipline to, to a wider audience. It's phenomenal.

[00:25:56] Gabriella: That was my aim. That was absolutely my aim.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Ross: Well, I would say mission accomplished,

[00:26:03] Gabriella: I hope, I mean, I'd love, you know, lots of people to buy it, but the, critical acclaim is just wonderful. I couldn't have dreamt I'd get such acclaim actually.

[00:26:13] Ross: So Gabriella, what next? Any, any plans in the pipeline? You talked about your seminars, you, we talked about your book, any plans on the horizon?

[00:26:23] Gabriella: Uh, well, I'm doing, I've been really lucky cause of the book. I've got some new kinds of work that I wasn't doing before and that's been lovely. and I'm also trying, so far, it's going very badly, but I'm trying my hand at writing friction. I, I don't know that I'll ever pull it off. As I say, so far it's really not going well, but I'm trying, I definitely want to keep writing whatever I do.

[00:26:53] Ross: I am a gog thought of, at the thought of, um, some fiction from that same pen.

[00:27:01] Gabriella: Well, we'll see.

[00:27:02] Ross: No pressure from, the people's soup audience, but heck, that is, that

[00:27:07] Ross: is exciting.

[00:27:09] Gabriella: Thank you.

[00:27:10] Ross: Gabriella, I'd love to ask my guests for a, for a takeaway. Is there anything that you'd share with our listeners? to support them in their reflections, perhaps on the workplace.

[00:27:21] Gabriella: and it's a great way to finish, I think. I suppose the takeaway for me is that we can't be robotic when we go to work, and neither does it help us, but you know, the idea that we leave our emotions under the pillow with our pajamas. Well, nobody talks about the pillow in the pajamas, but they do say, leave your problems at home.

[00:27:44] Gabriella: don't bring your emotions to work. Be rational. We can't. We are all that we are and we bring all that we are, and that is for good and for bad, our emotions help us at work. But I think [00:28:00] first of all, understanding that you can't just leave it aside and it's not gonna help you anyway. I think then actually, also understanding that we are not coherent, that we have lots of different parts of us and they can get in a bit of conflict with each other.

[00:28:18] Gabriella: That's all part of being human, and I think then really trying to understand ourselves and each other a bit more. So thinking about, you know, why did I just react like I. I didn't react to this kind of same thing from a different person yesterday. Why am I reacting to this person like this today? Maybe just more reflection and also more thinking about other people.

[00:28:47] Gabriella: Gosh, that, that's a strange reaction. Rather than just maybe being angry or upset, but also trying to think where are they coming from? What, what might be going on for them that has caused that kind of behavior. Re reaction doesn't mean that you tolerate all kinds of bad behavior, but it can help you and help the workplace to understand more.

[00:29:11] Gabriella: And I suppose the other thing, along with the reflection and the self-awareness is to making space and time for better conversations at work.

[00:29:21] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you so much for that. The generosity of, of guiding us through that takeaway. I'd just like to, to thank you for coming on the show, Gabriella. It's an absolute joy to hear you talk, to meet you, and to help spread the word of the such important work that you and your colleagues do.

[00:29:42] Ross: So thank you so much.

[00:29:43] Gabriella: Thank you so much, Ross. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much for inviting me, and thank you so much for helping spread the word of the book and the work.

[00:29:56] Ross: [00:30:00] that's said part two in the bag. Thanks so much to Gabriella for being a thoughtful, open, and fun guest. We'd love to get your reviews and reflections. Let us know what you think on the socials, or drop me an email or even a voice note on what. Remember, the paperback version of the book has landed, and it's also available in hardback, kindle, and audiobook formats.

[00:30:23] Ross: Special thanks to Tabitha Pel PR who made and supported the connection between me and Gabriella.

[00:30:29] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:30:48] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:31:05] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Brilliant. I believe, as they say, in the film industry, that's a wrap.

[00:31:24] Gabriella: That's a wrap. That was great, Ross. Thank you. If Netflix listen, wouldn't that be cool

[00:31:31] Ross: Oh my goodness. I think people will be a gog. It's like kind of watching Coronation Street, but with real insight.

[00:31:43] Gabriella: Yeah. I think it could be quite it. It's because there's quite a lot of drama isn't there to

[00:31:50] Gabriella: capture people's attention?

[00:31:52] Ross: I think, I think workplaces are the major source of drama

[00:31:55] Gabriella: Yeah, they are. They so are.