[Music]

greetings and welcome to the talk with

History Podcast I'm your host Scott here

with my wife and historian Jen hello on

this podcast we talk about history's

continuing impact on us in our personal

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walks with you

you may have heard about the Monitor and

the Merrimack Ironclad ships that were

instrumental during the American Civil

War I know I did I learned it in high

school but did you know that the first

ever Ironclad battle was right here in

Norfolk Virginia changing the face of

Naval Warfare forever in just four hours

so Jen

where did we visit today and why is this

place so important

[Music]

we went to Fort Norfolk and I I want to

make sure I say it like a native so it's

it's Norfolk yeah the the the locals

here they they don't use the r it's

nafak

so not it looks like Norfolk yes but no

[ __ ] and so it's named after a place in

England

um but one of the earliest cities here

in America we're on the coast of

Virginia and George Washington had

ordered some forts to be built to guard

the Atlantic side of well at the time

was the only side of America and so Fort

Norfolk was ordered when he was

president to be built in the late 1700s

and it's the only one that Still Remains

to this day

of course the other ones think in

DC area of course have been rebuilt or

used for something else and even our

tour guide today you know he said like

this fort right I mean it's been around

for 212 years yes 18. 17 18 10. well it

was it was it was first dug out Earth

Earthen works right in the 1700s that's

right and then the first bricks were

laid in the 1800s yeah and so even like

the literally the buildings

I mean we were walking on original yes

you know where they used to walk right

and there's all sorts of interesting

stories and stuff like that it's 212

years old the the green doors that you

see in our in the video that come in

through the little Archway yes those

doors are 212 years old and

the reason why I guess it survived all

this time it it was used for the Civil

War it was it was a retrofitted during

World War One and World War II to be

used by the Army Corps of Engineers they

used it for Logistics they used it as

offices Communications places and then

they built a bigger more modern building

outside of the fort and just kind of

moved over to there and they never tore

down the Old Fort yeah it's it's prime

location it's on the waterfront in

Norfolk but it's not so Prime that it

ever was

basically destroyed so it's still there

well and I think what they said too was

and it's so common even today right is

they filled in certain areas around you

know where where that was so there's so

there's like part of the harbor and you

know and yeah has been filled in with

yeah you know whatever yes

at the time of the Ironclad battle you

could see the battle from Fort Norfolk

now you couldn't be able to see it they

have filled in they basically have built

Landing yeah ships can't come that close

yeah so you wouldn't be able to see it

today but at the time you could see it

so I just thought it was really neat

to go there and to not only talk about

the history of the fort but two iron

clads so it's such a neat idea that this

was the first place the two ironclads

met and battled right and and the

ironclads too is like

like I said in the intro the monitor in

the miramak I remember those from high

school they talk about how you know

these two ironclads kind of shoot each

other and nothing happens nothing

happens I think the canning balls keep

bouncing off so I so I had known that

story generally from high school

but then all of a sudden when you say

hey I want to go to Fort Norfolk I was

like what's in Fort Norfolk like again

yeah like it's another Fort okay we're

doing a walk with history let's go to

Fort Norfolk what's what what's

interesting about Fort Norfolk and you

say well the the first two iron the very

first ironclad battle the monitor of the

Merrimack it wasn't actually the

Merrimack well I guess you can talk

about that Virginia they fought right

there that was their first battle and

then everybody after that was like yeah

we want that we're gonna make more of

those yes so and you know you and I love

movies and if you see Sahara

there's an iron clad right with Matthew

McConaughey that is the CSS Texas

for this for the movie but you see the

Ironclad what it looks like how it's

floating through the water and how it

basically gets away but that's that ship

that very basic metal whole ship how

they built it the very first one so you

can think of just how angular it was and

how basic it was

and they've been used in Warfare so what

happened why why you keep saying Meramec

Merrimack why you keep saying Merrimack

when actually it was the CSS Virginia

right so the Confederacy had taken the

Merrimack and they had retrofitted the

hull and iron plated it and called it

the CSS Virginia so when they say the

first two battle the first battle of the

two ironclads it's really the CSS

Virginia and the monitor the USS monitor

CSS Virginia so when you hear that

people will say

Merrimack and monitor but it's Virginia

and monitor

it's just so neat so neopins

when

yeah

secedes from the Union

then that happens in April of 1861 the

union is forced to leave and abandon the

city and the fort and the Confederacy

takes over the fort now they only have

it for 13 months but in that 13 months

is when this battle is going to take

place it happens in March of 1862.

and so March 8th what happens

is

the union that has been kind of

blockading the area and unable to get

supplies up to Richmond because if you

know anything about the Chesapeake Bay

you have to go through there to get up

to Richmond and the Richmond is of

course

the

the capital of the Confederacy it has

the heart yes so it's where Jefferson

Davis is this is the capital so they

want to fight back and they the Virginia

they they were the first ones to do this

put iron around the ship comes in

contact with two other ships and it

fights the Congress and the Cumberland

and these are wooden chips Wooden Ships

U.S Navy

Union Wooden Ships and they destroy them

one I think is sunk the other one is

just completely disabled because because

the Wooden Ships can't do any damage you

can't do any damage can't move if you

know anything about Wooden Ships you

have to get right up beside a wooden

ship so they can put their cannons out

and fire at you like it can't your guns

are very

rudimentary cemented can't move them

around you gotta move the whole ship to

yeah these iron clouds not only could

now have metal but they had learned how

to put guns on turrets and fire in

different directions and so it made the

chip be much more versatile and where it

was it could fire at you from any

position

and so they had already they've already

taken two Union ships and they're about

to take a third the Minnesota is also

there now the Minnesota to almost kind

of save itself runs the ground

that way it doesn't get sunk it runs the

ground and the Virginia by that time has

used all of its ammunition

and comes back to Fort Norfolk to get

ammunition again for no Focus being

it's being run by the Confederacy and

the big draw of that Fort is the

magazine so it's the biggest building

and so that was one of the cool things

just to kind of interrupt the story here

so one of the cool things is they show

us like where the magazine was we

couldn't go in that particular building

no I think they were fixing in yeah they

were fixing it up and there was a lot of

work being done at the Fort this isn't

like a wasn't a full-blown like

over-the-top like highly produced for

Museum but there's the folks told us

about some but

um one of the cool things was uh what

was the the pull that yeah so the magic

Transportation was right beside like a

rail that's right almost like a train

rail yeah and they used mules they would

load up the ammunition onto the mule and

they would just pull it right out to the

point out and out to the ships yeah and

they the reason they had moved

ammunition to Fort no Focus the ship

building was a little bit further away

and at the one point they had put the

magazine right beside the shipyard and

somebody thank goodness was smart enough

to go hey maybe we shouldn't have all of

these explosives right beside all this

wood where we're building ships we this

blows up we're going to destroy

everything lose everything why don't we

move it away oh my gosh there's a fort

down there and we can build this big

magazine yeah there's a there's a yard

here that they use for drilling yes and

they break for drill practice and they

built a building there so and then all

right so so that's just me interrupting

because you know I'm the host and I get

to do that once in a while

um so so they're rearming they're

rearming for the night so this is March

8th going into the night the next day is

March 9th 1862. during the night the

monitor so the union also is making a

metal ship they're also making an

ironclad and so during the night the

monitor comes down the coast and stands

and gets in front of the Minnesota

basically to defend the Minnesota and

honestly it uses the fire from the

Minnesota to find it yeah so at night

aim towards the smoke so they get in

front of it so when the Virginia comes

back out the next morning to finish what

they started they're met with the

Monitor and the Monitor and the Virginia

just go at it three to four hours just

firing at each other and shooting each

other and no damage neither sink neither

have damage they kind of call it a draw

and in that moment

[Music]

naval ship building Changes Worldwide

yeah and Naval Warfare yeah everyone's

paying attention Wooden Ships are

obsolete nobody makes them anymore for

Naval battles now it's all metal the

people are seeing how strong this is how

you can basically fight a war and you're

not going to have any damage so

everything changes when it comes to

building

ships from that battle Yeah that's that

was really cool and like when you're at

the Fort too so

um what you can see right now is that

they've it's a work in progress right so

I think it's the norfolkest or

historical society and some other folks

who are kind of helping kind of continue

to to work on Fort Norfolk and God bless

them if you hear this and you know

people who can help donate you know look

them up they're really um

they're working on preservation but they

definitely need the funds and the help

to do it yeah and but one of the cool

Parts is is like the the Earthen kind of

dig out is still kind of the same shape

that it was back then so you can

actually walk up the hill right and if

this is like the dirt that they piled

back in the late 1700s exactly right you

walk on top of this and you can see out

over the water now there is the modern

building that you mentioned before but

before that modern building was there

you could see the entire Harbor in the

entire Bay right there it's a key

strategic point it was a great point and

those Earthworks they are preserved just

like if you go to Yorktown yeah the

Earthworks are preserved where the

revolutionaries dug in so you can see

that this is this was done in the late

1700s early 1800s this was done by the

men there and it still stands today

foreign

and one of the the neat little asides

that our tour guide told us about was

um the little brick embankment built

into the side of one of those do you

remember that yeah he said it was the

commanding officer's wife wanted a

gazebo yeah it was or like uh yeah it

was like the kernel right so the colonel

who was in charge of that base at

whatever time I don't think he knew it

was like I don't know the early 1900s

yeah it was probably the 30s or yeah and

uh so I guess the Colonel's wife wanted

a gazebo so the colonel said build my

wife a gazebo over there Fort Norfolk

and so she had her gazebo and the tour

guide was great because he said he can

just picture

you know the Colonel's wife sitting

there in her gazebo drinking mint juleps

you know looking out over the water

which you know when we went which was

today for us

um it was super windy

um but I can see on a nice day it was

gorgeous and she's looking out over the

water of course yeah it's beautiful

[Music]

so that battle is called the Battle of

Hampton Roads so when people say the

first two ironclads that met in the

Battle of Hampton Roads that's that's

what it was yeah and

yeah so after that it's not long until

the Union's going to take Norfolk

they're going to be occupied in May of

1862. so this happens in March so you

think March April May the union has

taken Norfolk again and they're going to

hold it for the rest of the Civil War so

Norfolk is not again the Confederacy is

only at that Fort for about a year and

then it's taken over by the union again

and then what's depicted in the movie

Sahara we talked about this

is the fall of Richmond so the fall of

Richmond happens in early

April 1865. so you we know we're going

to have the surrender happen in about a

week follow Richmond happens April 4th

and then the cement is going to happen a

couple days after that and so in the

fall of Richmond

what's depicted in Sahara is the CSS

Texas gets away and the CSS Texas does

have the reputation of being the best

constructed Ironclad it was I mean by

that time you're getting better and

better were they constructing did I

don't know if our tour guide talked

about this but did were they

constructing these ironclads like where

the ships are being built today yes okay

yes

that's where they were doing it yeah

that's cool but I think the Texas were

being built closer built closer up to

Richmond okay because it was it's like

almost maiden voyage

right for the movie for the movie and

and in real life because what happens so

the CSS Texas in real life doesn't even

get to make a maiden voyage it actually

is taken during the the fall of Richmond

and

the union basically sells it for scrap

in 1867. so it comes down to Norfolk to

be sold for scrap

so but in the in the movie Sahara it's

making it's gets away right with all the

with all the goals with all the

competitors because they don't want it

to fall into the Union hands but to make

that ship for the movie they use the

Virginia

the model of the model of the Virginia

or was it the monitor

I can remember that I remember one or

the other but they used one of them that

actually was the actual ship in the

Battle of Hampton Roads that's cool and

they used that ship as the model so

that's what you're seeing in the movie

even though it's supposed to be the CSS

Texas yeah I love that movie that's such

a great movie it's probably Texas

because Matthew McConaughey's from Texas

sure why not you know you know if you're

gonna stretch uh stretch history for

facts for some Hollywood stuff uh why

not make it to your hometown yes

so there was um 11 buildings there's a

main gate building there's a carpenter's

building when you first walk into the

right there's officer's quarters there's

the Armory like we talked about the the

machine the magazine yep and then

there's enlisted quarters and then there

is a what was it to make the water a

cistern yeah to make clean water since

the rain that was up higher on one of

the embankments right natural gravity

that's uh it makes sense but it's been

it's it's been a fort since the American

Revolution we're 1812 Civil War so it's

been there for a while yeah and I what I

thought one of the interesting things

and one of the kind of interesting

characters that our our guide talked

about was

um The Hermit so the so the interesting

thing about this fort so think about you

know 200 plus years right and if you

think all the way back to the late 1700s

200 let's just say 250 240 years right

it has changed hands it's been active

and non-active one of the reasons that

it got taken

was that it was undermanned right so it

had been taken to Naval battles that had

been taken in land battles and all this

stuff and at one point it was basically

abandoned yeah what do you remember what

era this was in I think I'm looking

there was this hermit that moves into

Fort Norfolk because it was essentially

abandoned right the Army in the Navy

wasn't using it anymore and so he was

like you know what that looks nice and

cozy over there I'm gonna go move in and

he lives at Fort Norfolk for

a decent amount of time because he

actually does work he does upkeep on it

he puts a roof on one of the buildings

and then eventually

um eventually one of the one of the

services says yeah we want that back so

they come and basically kick him out

and he he gets all worked up about it

because he's been living there probably

for a couple years

and

he he's basically tries to sue slash

send a bill to the government saying hey

I did all this work and I did all this

upkeep on North Fort Norfolk I put a

roof on it on one of the buildings

um you guys owe me money and I don't

think anything ever actually came out of

it because it's not like he was hired to

do that but I was just such an

interesting little tidbit

um

that our tour guide shared with us yes

so I'm meeting here the fourth set with

an unofficial caretaker status until

1849 the meal Fentress yes the real

event and he'd been living alone in the

offices quarters that's right so for the

past couple decades and he and he had

been like a volunteer yes like a like a

volunteer Soldier and so I had never

gotten to live in one of the buildings

yes because the buildings were for like

not the basically the non-volunteers

like the officers and the actual the

actual military and if you were a

volunteer you lived in tents out outside

of the the building so he went into the

building and took care of it and he said

he put a roof on and then he

files a bill he demands payment of

fifteen hundred dollars for taking care

of the government works and he signs the

bill with an X and it's actually at the

National Archives oh is it really yeah

that's what he said oh my gosh bill is

at The Archives now there's no proof

that he was ever paid but that bill and

that writing is at The Archives that was

just one of the most entertaining asides

of like yeah here's a super interesting

character that has inserted himself as

has had his tail told for the past you

know 150 years now about here's the

hermit that moved into North Fort

Norfolk and charged the government money

for upkeep that he did while he was

living here yes um I just it just kind

of made me smile

um the other thing that I will say is

that our kids had plenty of questions oh

yeah for and God bless the tour guide

yeah yes and they they loved it it was a

great tour I recommend you take it it's

free

and the kids had plenty of questions

just about life in general for people

who lived in the fort they had

they there are some stories about

prisoners being held at the Fort and

they do believe that they took a

profiteering ship during the Civil War

yeah they had some yeah

and the men

wrote on the walls with pencil yeah and

they did had some carvings in the

ceiling yes they carved their names and

stuff they tried to preserve that so you

can see that as well now it's there's

other claims of prisoners but this this

is the one that's actually like has

provenance and facts that they could

find but it's it's a very interesting

place and it's like very old and it has

a like there's original doors like you

had said there's original Metal Works

there's a you're standing on the

original floors you're looking at

original beams and it really has been

used and not just used for like storage

like it was used in World War II yes

right the communications that our tour

guide talked about he said about five

years ago okay so as we're recording

this is 2022 and he said about five

years ago so let's just say in 2017 he

said this 80 80 to 90 year old lady came

with you know what may have been her son

or something like that came to visit

they were looking around she couldn't

even make it up the step she and she

just her comment was kind of an aside

she said I just wanted to see the fort

again

and so

he that that caught his attention and he

said oh well what do you mean and so it

turns out that she had been like the

lead Communications person

at the Fort you know for a number of

years and I don't know it wasn't during

World War II but it was it was a World

War II I love how you have to listen to

a story yeah you crack me up baby but it

was just it was just so interesting to

lead Communications for World War II in

that room breaking codes and messages

from Germany in that room that's so it

kind of shows you where are things

happening that are not even close or

connected to where the actual fight is

going on sure but yes and so we were

looking at how that Old Guard house was

retrofitted for wires and power and

that's when

after World War II they build that new

modern building because that's the the

core of army Engineers so that's who she

worked for so she's getting plans and

stuff from them trying to help them with

World War II

so yeah you're funny I love how I love

doing history with you babe but again I

just thought that was super interesting

because here's something that has like

legitimately been used right it's it's

not there's some spots that we visit

where people knew in the earlier

mid-1800s are like hey we need to

preserve this this is going to be

We're Not Gonna We're Not Gonna use this

it's gonna be preserved right and so

it's been preserved for 100 years 150

years or whatever like that this is

something that has been used

for 200 plus years yeah it just I think

it went on the historic places in

1975 but it just reminds me Norfolk is

very much like this

we have that building why don't you use

that building like the the city owns

certain buildings and when they're

thinking of we need this and we need it

now and you can think of wartime when

you know supplies are scarce you're like

we have we have the fort retro hit the

fort put it in the fort I mean it's it's

solid there and you probably have very

good you know conductivity and frequency

and you could probably watch you know

things happen real time let's put the

stuff at the Fort so Norfolk recycles

their buildings like that and that's

what happened with the MacArthur

Memorial so when we talk about that I

mean that was the old city hall of

Norfolk and now it's uh Memorial to

General Douglas MacArthur so they do

that they're very I have to say they're

very good at recycling their buildings

here

[Music]

again this

caught my eye you know it was a little

maybe a little more interesting because

I was trying to listen to the tour guide

but I was also trying to manage uh

Madison to keep her from asking too many

questions that only a six-year-old can

ask but well Fort Norfolk it may not

ring a bell to many people if the walls

of that Fort could talk they would tell

Tales of Soldiers and Sailors land

battles and Naval Warfare

it was an honor to visit the last

remaining fortification that President

George Washington ordered to be built

for Harbor defenses in the late 1700s

so again thank you and thank you

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