I try to help people is by telling them to look outside of that box and try to find something different.

What is it that you bring to the table that's different?

And I think that is when people find a hit or when they find a new trend or they're the starter of a new trend, or just.

Just breaking that box is a big challenge in music, and I think if you can get out of that, it makes things much better.

So I guess I would say the box is the hardest thing to overcome.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Because even when I've.

I've tried to write that, like, tried to sit down and write a song, it's usually trash, because I do try to find myself following someone else's, like, blueprint, if you will, and just, like, thinking I can make my own version of a particular song, which usually ends up just frustrating me in the process.

But can you kind of maybe describe your process for writing a song?

Do you have one?

Or does it just kind of, like, come to you and you just capture it by writing it down or recording the medley?

Like, break that.

It changes.

Okay.

It definitely changes.

My favorite way is to start from scratch with a producer in the room or a musician, whether it's a guitar player or piano player, and just start from nothing and experiment with sounds.

And then when we hear a sound that we like, we'll start with that.

And then while the beat is being created by the producer, I'm usually in the corner writing towards the beat that's being created.

And I also like to work with just working with sounds first.

So, like, I'll record myself singing anything.

It might not make sense, but it's more so just for the melody.

And then over time, I'll put lyrics into it and make sense out of what my subconscious mind is trying to say.

And that is my favorite way of writing.

And I find some of my deepest songs have come that way because I'm not overthinking.

I'm not thinking about, like, how can I fit this all in one verse and then put the course here?

And then where does.

Like, I'm not.

I'm not focused on structure as much.

I'm just more focused on, like, where the music is leading me.

And I think that's the most effective way I found writing to go for me.

So, yeah, that's my favorite way.

But it really changes.

Like, I know some people will tell me that they want me to write a song based off of a certain topic.

I was just gonna ask.

Yeah, or they might.

Or they have a Beat in the top that they want you to, like, put some lyrics to, maybe.

Yep, absolutely.

I've.

I've had people give me lyrics that they've already wrote.

Written.

Sorry.

And then they want melody behind it or they just need help making it fit into a song.

Right.

Or turning a poem into a song.

There's so many ways we can do it.

But my favorite way is definitely starting from scratch with nothing.

And with nothing, do you go straight to, like, a verse or a chorus?

Do you write the chorus or the verse first?

Whatever happens.

Yeah, I'm that guy.

Yeah, I'm that guy that doesn't, like, rules.

When I was growing up, a lot of what I learned was.

Was structure.

And I think it's still important to know what.

What structure is and.

And how to go about that.

Especially when I started trying to write songs outside of just gospel.

So if it was a pop song, I knew that there was a certain way you had to structure it.

Verse, chords, verse, chorus, bridge out.

Like, you know, but now I'm like, I love that.

I love that things are changing now and people are not following structures.

And it's more so about the feeling.

It might be like just a chorus and an outro, and that's the entire song.

Like, you know, but as long as it feels right, that's most important.

Oh, that's my opinion.

No, for sure.

But with your right.

How do you know when your song is actually finished, though?

When do you feel like, okay, I've got it.

I've nailed it.

I'm not doing another single thing to it.

When do you know, do you just feel it?

Or does it just like.

So that's X.

That's actually tricky because I feel like we're never 100% satisfied.

Like, we're always going to hear something we could have done different or.

And because we're.

We're constantly evolving, right?

So what I write this year might not be good enough for me next year.

So I might listen back to it and be like, oh, man, I would have done this or that.

But what I find for me, when I feel like it's okay to put out is when I play it for other people.

And I don't have disclaimers.

So, like, a lot of times we'll play our music for people, and when it's playing, we find ourselves saying stuff like, okay, keep in mind it's not mixed.

And, you know, like, I'm gonna add some harmonies.

Oh, and I'm gonna change some of the verses.

And don't worry about it.

That lyric is not gonna stay there.

Whereas before we even started playing the music, we thought it was good.

So.

So when I find myself doing that, I'm like, no, go back to the drawing board.

It's not finished.

But when I play it for somebody and I'm very confident in what I'm playing for them, that's how I know I'm ready to put it out.

No, that makes sense.

I.

I always wondered that, like, how an accomplished songwriter has done it way more than just like, a couple times, like, when do you know song is actually finished?

And I guess it's good to know that you guys torment yourselves as well.

As.

I'm sure he's like, myself will just like, we never know when it's actually done and we put it out there and go, okay, if they like it, I'm just.

I'm not gonna bother anymore.

Yeah.

Like.

But it is important to have a few.

A few people in your corner that, you know, you can try.

I call them my trusted ears because they're gonna be super honest with you, and they're gonna show you.

They're gonna give you feedback based off of things you might not think about, or they're gonna hear things that you didn't hear because you have to step outside of yourself because you wrote it.

Right.

So if they.

And I take what they say with a grain of salt as well, because if we're trying to start something new and do something that's not been.

That's never been done before, you are going to have people who say, like, what is that?

That's trash.

But it's because they're not familiar with it.

Right.

So you do have to trust yourself to some point, but at the same time, like, you know that you kind of want to hear their feedback on it just in case they do have a point and raise something that you didn't think about.

I know in a lot of.

A lot of musicians, especially people who grew up with the church background, you kind of end up getting two schools.

So, I mean, there's a lot of guys who.

And girls who have grown up strictly in church and have a whole lifetime of music experience.

And then there's others who went to school and had other formal training.

Where do you fall into that?

Did you have formal training as well, or.

I didn't have formal training, but I was fortunate to learn under people who did, so.

Which counts.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, I guess so, but.

So I didn't actually go to school for music, but I did study music through other people and like, some of the biggest trainers out there, Right.

So people training me when I was doing competitions in church, they were in Humber for music and teaching me every last thing they learned, you know, about vibrato and scales and music terminologies and the technical side of things and whatever.

So I was learning those things at a very young age and did think about it when I was older, but I got a lot of advice from people that were in school and people that did graduate from music school, and they were like, honestly, Navon, you're doing it already, so if you want to learn things and take little courses here and there, then absolutely.

But I got a lot of advice that probably not the best thing for me to spend my money on four years of stuff that I pretty much knew and we're already doing.

I was traveling the world doing all of that stuff already.

And usually people go to school in hopes that that is exactly the outcome, Right?

So.

Yeah, exactly.

That's.

That's.

That's amazing.

I mean, you've.

You've reached levels that most only dream of, and you're still going.

Yeah.

And I do want to say.

I do want to say, though, that education is still good.

So although I didn't go to school for music, I was in school for music on my own because I was reading up on things about the voice or learning about harmony online or what.

Just whatever it is.

Anything I can do to educate myself on music more, I was doing it.

So, yeah, it is important to learn, but it sometimes looks different depending on the individual.

No, for sure.