Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.

On this episode, I'm joined by Austin Conrad, co owner of Virginia Trophy Guides.

Austin and I take a deep dive into Virginia smallmouth and muskie.

And Austin even shares the legend of Skippy Britches.

I think you're really going to enjoy this one, but before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

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Well, Austin, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Thanks Marlon, appreciate you having me.

Thrilled to be here.

Yeah, looking forward to it.

And we have a tradition on the Articulate Fly.

We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory.

I thought about this one because I know you asked everybody and I can't decide if it was whether I was fishing with my grandfather and my little brother on a lake like a Pay to Play lake and southern West Virginia called Plum Orchard Lake.

And I can't remember if it was that one.

And him being frustrated all day untangling and us, you know, snagging up on trees behind us, or if it was, you know, another early one with him and his buddy Joey.

They had a fish camp on the Greenbrier river and we would go there and fish all the time.

And we did like Kind of like an old school john boat float with a trolling motor and a prop outboard.

And by the end of the day, the only thing that worked was the trolling motor.

So going down some, some, you know, interesting water, pretty much not under power most of the time.

So that was a fun one.

Made for a long day, taking off in the dark, hitting a bunch of stuff.

But catching smallmouth bass, I would say those are the two.

I couldn't figure out which one was earlier.

I even made a call to try to figure out which one was and.

But yeah, I mean, you know, growing up fishing in southern West Virginia for, for bass and trout and stuff and got a pretty early start.

So I was, I was fortunate in that way.

It helped foster my love for fishing in the outdoors.

Very, very neat.

So when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

So that actually was not until I was an adult.

So I.

On the other side of my family, I had a, you know, an uncle Joe.

He wasn't actually an uncle, but a good close friend, him and his wife Sandy with my mom's parents.

And Joe Lewis was probably one of the only guys fishing in also the Greenbrier and the Lower New river there in West Virginia on a fly rod.

And he would, he would wait around and, and fish for that.

And I'd watch him and he never let me fly fish because he said it was too complicated.

But, you know, I'd seen it, but I'd always been told by my grandfather that it was, you know, you did that for trout.

And so I went to college at Penn State and when I was like an adult, that's when I kind of started picking up the fly rod right before I went to school.

And then more seriously, when I got to school and worked for a shop up there called TCO Fly Shop and kind of got more and more serious.

And in my tenure there as an employee, very neat.

How did you not get drummed out of the core of your family if not for not being a mountaineer and you went to Penn State?

I know, yeah, it was, It's.

I was told that at least it wasn't Pitt or Virginia Tech.

So I knew that was, that was a tough one to.

To.

That was a tough call to, to my mom's father, who was a.

A mountaineer student two times over.

So that was a.

That was definitely an awkward moment.

But.

But yeah, I went to Penn State and it wanted to get out of the area.

That was the big thing.

My brother, you know, ended up going to WVU and so I kind of wanted to do my own thing.

And yeah, I'm glad I did.

Met some really great people and.

And got to fish some really pretty water that I probably.

I may have not otherwise, you know.

So, yeah, the, the fishing around State College, I mean, I've been up there a few times to, to fish with the guys in the shop and I mean, I think I could kind of be ruined.

I mean, there's so much good water that's so easy to get to.

Yeah, that was, that was kind of eye opening.

So in southern West Virginia, we had, we had a lot of good trout water.

Definitely did.

For sure.

Still do.

But when you get to a place like State College, you, like, realize, like, you're like, wow.

Like I, I didn't know what great trout fishing was.

I mean, it's.

You can't spit without hitting a trout stream.

And so that was kind of eye opening and it was great.

I mean, it was probably to the detriment of my grades because, you know, there every.

Every day you could go fish somewhere new and not hit the same water twice within a, you know, 150 mile radius.

So.

Yeah, that's even before you throw in bow hunting for deer.

Right?

Yeah, I didn't do too much of that up there.

I didn't do.

Actually, I didn't do any hunting while I was there.

Wish I had, but.

But it's.

But yeah, I mean, I had so much on my plate and just, just having the fishing, I, you know, I kind of had a wealth of riches with that, so it was nice.

But yeah, there is.

I mean, I always tell people, I mean, PA Central, PA in particular is kind of a outdoorsman's paradise.

You know, we're kind of very lucky in the mid Atlantic as a whole that we, you know, between angling opportunities and hunting opportunities, we've got some of the best in the country.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, you know, Austin, tell me a few of the people that have kind of mentored you on your fly fishing journey and, you know, what did they teach you?

Yeah, so it, you know, I kind of like, I guess I would break that question down like a couple ways where it's, you know, I got my start working at TCO and, you know, worked for George Costa, who you had on the show for the reports and everything.

And George was kind of giving me a job up there, which was pretty much for.

I looked at it as it was a discount and beer money and helped me pay rent a little bit.

And it gave me a start and so, George, I was green as far as fly fishing went when I was up there, to be honest.

George, you know, kind of, whether he would say it or not, I would.

You know, I'm a big, big believer in, you know, kind of just shutting up and listening sometimes, and especially when people know more than you do.

So he may not tell you that.

He may squirm.

And there may be some other people that would squirm to call him a mentor.

But George.

George definitely was probably the earliest one.

And then other guys up there that I would just sit and listen to because they were just.

It just seemed to me like they were trout gurus, like, you know, Sam Galt, Shane Adams, things like that.

You know, I.

I don't think I would call them mentors, but I've been fortunate to know some really, really fishy people, I mean, in a short time in this industry.

And then as I, you know, got back to this area, Virginia, and in West Virginia, Josh Lafferty, who I work with, another guy that would probably squirm, but I would call him a mentor.

As far as, you know, he just.

He doesn't.

I don't think he cares the.

For that kind of notoriety or whatnot.

But.

But, yeah, Josh, I mean, he taught me everything I know about muskie fishing on the fly.

And then in recent years, you know, last couple years, getting to know Blaine, same thing.

I mean, it's just one of those guys you just.

You just kind of shut up and listen.

And there's always tidbits you can learn, you know, talking to, you know, whether it be somebody you consider a mentor or a friend and colleague, whatever.

And just like that, too, I mean, you know, like I said, I've been fortunate to be around some of the fishiest people, you know, I think, in this industry.

I mean, kid that works with us, Braden Miller, I learned, you know, just talking to him, he's such a nerd about.

About fishing that you just.

You pick up something all the time.

And he's so technical and so sound in everything he does.

And Brendan Roosh in PA Worked with him closely and good friend, and I mean, a great bass angler, guide, and know guys like Josh Trammel in Ohio and some of the Michigan boys, like, you know, I kind of just.

I just try to pick up what I can, whether it's something I would consider a mentor or not.

But, you know, it's.

I would say George Costa and Josh just giving me an opportunity in both of those places, you know, and then Jim Johnson in Alaska, you know, I worked up there for a few seasons, and even though that was totally different to what I do here now, Jim taught me a lot about professionalism and being a guide and, you know, getting up and getting after it every day.

I mean, he's like a.

He's an I don't take no for an answer type guy, you know, where it's like, you go out there and you get after it, you know, and.

And so Jim, you know, George and Josh, I would say, have been super important to me, and I can't thank those guys enough for.

For helping me along the way and really getting my start and push it along.

So.

Yeah.

Very neat.

So you're, you know, you're.

You're a kid at Penn State.

You're working for George, you know, and, you know, you were just kind of figuring out the fly fishing thing, you know, when did you get the guide bug?

Yeah, so it kind of happened as I was, like, leaving Penn State and, you know, and I left the shop and, you know, it was weird.

It actually kind of happened, like, the same time that.

That I got an offer to work on a fly fishing film tour.

And so in the midst of that, you know, I was helping a guy named Paul Nicoletti, good friend of mine, with the fly fishing film tour, and then coming back to Virginia to after school, and, you know, it's kind of light, you know, like, not doing a ton of dad work, not, you know, some trips here and there.

And.

And I just decided, you know, after school, I was like, didn't really know what I wanted to do or I thought I did, and just kind of ran with it.

And so, you know, I just kind of dove, you know, headfirst into the industry, so to say.

But between a film tour and just guiding as soon as I got back, and it just seemed like it just all happened really quickly because, you know, doing trips here and there was like, boom.

I got the job in Alaska, went and left, you know, did my first season in Alaska.

I got to spend a lot of time with Josh, and, you know, I told him that I had interest in being in that area and guiding for bass and.

And muskie.

And, you know, I was kind of nervous about that conversation.

And Josh was nothing but welcoming.

I mean, he was like, you know, hey, man, screw it.

Like, we'll just do it together, you know, and.

And was very fortunate with that, that, you know, I.

I was kind of nervous about the whole thing.

And, you know, he kind of.

He kind of squashed all that and gave me the confidence to Go full steam ahead.

So that's that.

It kind of happened really quickly, but right after school, I would say.

Interesting.

And so did you just kind of start, you know, guiding for yourself before it all came together or were you working with a shop or an outfitter?

Yeah, so it was like, just like I said, like a pretty small amount of trips and I was actually just doing trout in Virginia and this was a very short time before, you know, I kind of met Josh and we kind of started Virginia Trophy Guides.

But, but yeah, it was just doing some, some walking away trout trips and, and to be honest with you, kind of when I was doing it, I think that I love trout, I really do, but I wasn't really inspired to, to guide for them long term and, and I knew I wanted to do something slightly different, but I didn't really want to leave the region.

I, you know, I've been all over the, the country.

I've gotten Alaska and you know, and, and I, I, I think people probably don't believe me when I say it, but, but I wouldn't rather be anywhere else than, you know, this area, western Virginia.

And obviously I'm partial to West Virginia too, but, but this, I love being in this, this region.

As far as fishing, I don't think you can beat it.

And the views as well.

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty amazing thing.

I mean, if you kind of go from, you know, let's just say, you know, North Carolina kind of up to Maryland, I mean, the species diversity that you have and how quickly you can kind of change things up, you know, there really, they're just not a lot of other places in the country that kind of have that diversity of species to chase.

Yeah, no, I agree.

I, I mean, I grew up fishing for bass and, and, and particularly on the New river and the Greenbrier and, but within reach you've got trout.

And then once you get to Virginia here, it's, you know, you can go to the coast and I mean, the Chesapeake Bay is probably one of the best saltwater fisheries in the world.

Right.

So I mean, there's so many opportunities from, you know, in a five hour drive.

I think, you know, as I always hype up Pennsylvania and West Virginia and I try to drive people to those places and just to see them, you know, I think everybody should and go fish them.

And I feel the same way about here in western Virginia and, and I feel the same way about the Chesapeake.

Even though, you know, I don't work out there.

I haven't done a ton of serious fishing out there.

But.

But, you know, I think it's their Virginia is unique in that way where you can drive five hours to the mountains, fish for brook trout, wild browns, wild rainbows, smallmouth, muskie, catfish, whatever you want, and then you can get out to the coast and fish for some of the best bull, drum, cobia and so on.

So I think that's a really unique and special thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I know you mentioned a bunch of folks already, but are there any other folks that have, you know, mentored you on your guide journey that you want to mention and, you know, let folks know kind of what they.

They taught you?

Yeah, I mean, I just, like I said, I mean, if I was to break it down into those kind of those three fixtures and in that journey, I've been really fortunate to.

You know, maybe it was time and place and.

Right time, right place, but, you know, going from working in PA and being surrounded by those guys up there, I mean, there was plenty of guys up there I didn't even get a chance to mention or mention, you know, Brian Wolfkill and another close friend of mine, Elliot hall, who is, yeah, sneakily, one of the most fishy people I know.

I mean, it.

I've thrown him in smallmouth and, and musky scenarios where, you know, he didn't grow up fishing for that kind of stuff.

And he's just.

We've.

We've taken him fishing for brown trout on tail waters and had the best day I've ever seen on a Virginia tailwater with him.

You know, some people, like I said, I mean, you know, I think some people like Josh would shudder to hear.

They mentioned to call him a mentor just because he doesn't care about it.

But I, like I said, I try to.

All the friends I surround myself with, I try to, you know, learn something from them because you can, you know, and there's things that, you know, I call, I talk to Brendan all the time or, you know, and there's things that are happening on his rivers that, That I can apply to my own, you know, even though they can be different.

And I think they're really, like I said, you know, going from George to, you know, working for Jim and working with Josh, I mean, I've been really fortunate and then getting to know Blaine.

But like I said, I mean, that's, you know, we.

We shoot the, we shoot the breeze and, and on.

Just chat a lot too.

But I try to drive him crazy and pick his brain all the time, you know, get off rivers that he's guided for 30 years after a day and, you know, whether I had a good day or tough day and just run through it with him and see if there was something I could have done better, you know, and I'm, I'm a firm believer in, in iron sharpens iron.

So just getting to know guys like that and, and learning from them, that's, that's a big thing for me, you know.

Yeah, it's super neat.

And you know, I have a couple questions I always like to ask guides and one of them, Austin, is, you know, to get your thoughts on what you think the secret is to being a good fishing guide.

Oh, I, so I also have a, a background from when I was in college and a little bit beyond in, in bartending and so the service industry.

And so at the end of the day, you know, as hard as we fish and you know, despite the fact that we may be after a certain type of fish or certain type of way, it's still the service industry.

And you know, we aim.

You know, when Josh brought me on, I mean, it was all about showing people a good time, right?

I mean, there's certain conditional factors where gays are not going to be as good as you had hoped and being able to fill the gaps and, you know, show people a good time regardless of conditions, I think that's, that's huge, you know, and given somebody an opportunity to share a boat with somebody that they, that they enjoy it, you know, because, I mean, I think it was that what Pallet said, you know, a boat can feel a fill is, you know, big or small as you want it to, you know, and I'm sure there's, there's experiences where people, I've had fishing experiences with people where, you know, not guiding or not paying for a guided trip, but being on a boat with somebody and that boat feels really small, you know, and, and so trying to be a well rounded person and you know, and, and provide a good experience in that way beyond just the fishing.

Because I mean, there's certain things we can control in fishing.

There's certain things we absolutely can't.

And so if people can learn and leave with something that they didn't know before the start of the day, that's big for me.

You know, obviously personal best or first smallmouth or first mosquito, those things are all great.

But if somebody left and they're driving home and they're like, wow, you know, it like clicked with me when, you know, Austin said, you know, slow this down or you're dropping the shoulder or whatever that they can be like, oh, just quick, you know, and now I can take that to Louisiana or I can take that to, you know, the Bahamas or wherever with them and can make their fishing experience better, you know, over time.

That's, that's a win for me.

So.

Yeah, it's interesting too, because I always tell people, you know, kind of having been around the sport for a fair amount of time, you know, kind of, as I would say, on the other end of the rod to, you know, encour, encourage people to be really honest with their guides about what they want to accomplish during a day and, you know, not make you be a mind reader in an awesome fishing guide.

Yeah, for sure.

And I definitely encourage that too.

And I kind of have that awkward, there's sometimes awkward conversation at the beginning of the day where it's like, what are you looking to gain out of this trip?

And a lot of times it's even before we get on the boat.

And we're very fortunate to have a lot of serious anglers, whether it be in the smallmouth or mosquito pursuit, people that have experience.

But we certainly, especially with smallmouth, get a lot of brand new anglers and, you know, their goal may not be the same.

As a guy that I spent, you know, two days with in April chasing, you know, his personal best smallmouth, you know, their goals may not be the same.

And so being able to read a room and understand people's expectations and then helping them achieve those expectations and those goals.

So that's a big part of guiding, you know, it's not just big fish and, you know, telling people where to cast and running down the river, it's providing a well rounded experience for somebody, um, and then being able to adapt to what the, their needs are.

So definitely, you know, we, we get that kind of greener side and you know, that's, that's a completely different day sometimes.

And sometimes it works out that they end up catching, you know, great bass or tons of bass.

And some days it's like, you know, they're brand new and learning and they're grinding it out for a dozen, you know, 15 fish.

And to them, you know, I, I sometimes I struggle to remember, you know, that I, I'll get off the water and, and talk to Josh or talk to Abby and on the way home and I'm like, that's a little tougher than I thought.

And you know, it's, I, especially Abby, she's, she's always like, well, look, I mean, how many, how many bass is that?

Those Those folks caught before, and I'm like, well, they said they've gone out a few times and never caught anything.

Like, she's like, well, you just said that they.

They caught more bass than they ever have, and they caught the biggest bass they ever have.

And so it's.

It's all about perspective and providing, you know, that kind of realistic experience for people.

Yeah.

It's funny because I always tell people that, you know, you can't control the catching.

Right.

So, you know, all you can really, you know, hope for at the end of the day is that everything that was humanly possible to put you on fish was done.

Right.

Absolutely.

And, I mean, that's like, you know, when.

When Josh kind of brought me on and when we brought Braden on, it was.

It's all been the same conversation, which is like, we fish hard, you know, we don't fish by the clock, and we go out.

And at the very least, all he expected and all I expect is that, you know, we.

We fish, you know, guide hard all day and give it everything you have.

I know it sounds cliche, but as long as you're doing everything you can on.

On your end, there are some things, like I said, you can't control.

But.

But for the most part, if we're working hard and they're working hard, good things happen.

I mean, I'm.

I'm a firm believer in a good attitude and good river karma, too.

So.

Yeah, you got a grind to shine, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And another question I always have to ask guides is to share their biggest misconception that they think folks have about the life of a fishing guide.

Oh, where.

Where to begin?

Yeah.

I would say the biggest misconception is that it's that.

That you're fishing every day and, you know, that it's a glamorous lifestyle.

You know, it's like that it's easy, and then it's.

It's glamorous.

And that's something that.

Two things that it's.

It's definitely not.

You know, our days often start.

You know, I can just speak to myself, but, you know, my days often start at, you know, 4:35am and, you know, I'm not going to bed until sometimes midnight or beyond.

And it's just constant work, and sometimes you're struggling to find, you know, you've got something that went wrong with your truck, and you're on a skid of guide days, and you can't just drop it and fix your truck, you know, or you're working on your Truck at midnight.

I've also done that.

And you know, that it's, that everything's just kind of peachy, you know, it's, I love it.

I wouldn't do anything else.

I truly mean that.

But it's, it's definitely a, it's a, it's a, it's a tougher lifestyle than, and career choice and people give credit for, you know, you're, you're away from home a lot, whether you're working right down the street or, you know, you're working seasons in Alaska or Patagonia, New Zealand, whatever, you know, and it's, it's tough on your schedule with loved ones and family and you gotta have supportive people around you, that's for sure.

Because it is a, it's a demanding, demanding job.

And, and it's, it can be inconsistent.

You know, I don't care what, what anybody says.

I mean, there's times, you know, I, I lost a lot of business in October because of Helene, you know, and you.

That can be a tough thing to swallow.

I mean, luckily had a large majority of those people reschedule.

But when you're counting on that money and everything can be seasonal, luckily we have a year round fishery.

But when you're counting on that money, and I know there's guys who had it a lot harder than me, I'm not, not saying that, you know, by any means, but, you know, because all I did was lose some business.

But, but yeah, it's just, it's, it's one of those things where I think, people think that, you know, you just start guiding and it's like, boom.

Oh, you know, your schedule's filled, you know, you know, people just, they're.

Your phone's ringing off the hook.

It just, it definitely takes a lot of hard work.

It's a lot of hours in a day and it's a lot of time, you know, away sometimes from people, you know, loved ones and family, so.

And friends.

I would say that's the biggest misconception.

Yeah.

And I think too that a lot of people don't really kind of appreciate that kind of pre work and post work every day.

And then also too, like, you know, I talked to Blaine about it and it's like, you know, just the grinder in muskie season.

It's cold right?

Every morning.

Oh God.

Right, yeah.

And I mean, you know, and when that sun drops behind the mountains in the afternoon, it gets chilly, right?

And you get off and you've been cold all day and you start doing that, you know, if you're fishing with Blaine, maybe you fish with him one day, two days, maybe three days, but he's doing that like 14 days in a row.

20 days in a row, right?

Yeah.

You know, or you flip it around like, you know, top water fishing for smallmouth, you know, it's not cool in, in Virginia, in August, in July.

Yeah, right.

And so, you know, as I always say, you know, the fish are in the shade and you're not.

Yeah, it's exactly what you said.

I mean, we, we've got a year round fishery, but we have polar like extremes and weather.

I don't think people consider how cold musky days can be.

And you know, granted, there's probably some guys in Michigan that would laugh at that, but, you know, because we don't have it that cold.

But, but yeah, it's, it's definitely what you said.

And I, I think we feel it the most during muskie season, you know, because you've done it before, you've musky fish with brain and it's a, it can be a grind.

And when you're doing it almost every day for, you know, from December through the end of February, by the end of it, sometimes I'm like, I'm begging for pre spawn bass days because those days, they feel short, they feel cold.

You're working hard, you know, clients are working hard, and it's still the same thing.

You know, you're getting home later, you know, not quite as late as you do with summer day or spring bass day, but we're getting home late.

And then you've got a lot to do, you know, to get prepared for the next day, whether it's the same clients or different set of clients.

So, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's definitely a grind, but, but I, I do love it.

I think I thrive in those kind of scenarios.

Like that kind of controlled chaos is where I do my best work.

So.

Yeah, well, there you go.

Well, you know, I want to get a little bit more detail on kind of, you know, the background story, you know, the creation story for Virginia trophy guides.

Tell us a little bit.

You know, I'm imagine you and Josh were like in a bar somewhere and you're like, hey, let's start a guide company.

Tell us that story.

Well, we weren't, we weren't in a bar yet, but, but, but, but, yeah, so we were definitely probably drinking a beer, I would imagine, or cocktail on, on his end.

But, but yeah, so I, you know, like I said, I worked for Knackneck River Camp in Bristol Bay, Alaska.

And the first season I was up there was kind of like, you know, getting to know Josh and, you know, we got along well right from the jump.

Very similar in a lot of ways and very different in a lot of ways.

And I think we mesh well that.

That way.

And, you know, it's kind of like, like I said, it was that awkward moment where I've never wanted to step on anybody's toes.

And I knew who he was and I was familiar with, you know, he had had other companies or outfits rather, prior to Virginia trophy guides.

I mean, he's, you know, other than Blaine.

I mean, he's the longest standing, you know, fly fishing guide for muskie on those two rivers that's.

That's still in operation.

And so, you know, I was familiar with him growing up in the, in the area and just, I don't know, you know, liking.

Liking the fish for smallmouth and musky and whatnot.

And so I kind of had that awkward conversation with him where I was like, hey, man, you know, like, we're moving out that way, you know, and, you know, I kind of like to guide that water, you know, after some time and kind of dial in that program in.

And he was a lot more welcoming, you know, or, you know, you always expect the worst when you have conversations like that.

Right?

You know, and so he, he was like, that's when he said, you know, screw it.

Let's just.

We'll just, we'll just guide together, you know, just come work with me.

And he was already guiding muskie and some spring bass, you know, and then doing his Alaska season.

The only thing he hadn't done in.

In a pretty long while was the summer bass.

He had kind of, um, quit doing it in exchange for going up to Alaska.

I mean, I think he's on his, like, 10th season up there.

So he hadn't guided summer bass for about 10 years, but had a, you know, long stretch.

Same, you know, couple decades worth of muskie and spring basketing.

And so it was.

It was easy to jump in there with him.

And I'm sure we, you know, cheers the beer and a cocktail and that was it.

And, you know, he was super good to me from the jump.

You know, he was like, look, I don't, I don't want to be anybody's boss, you know, because this, this is an equal partnership, you know, so I'm thankful for that, you know, because he's just.

He's a very selfless guy to work with, that's for sure.

Yeah, got it.

And so we've got Virginia trophy guides guiding musky, Guiding small mouth.

Are you doing other species or, you know, doing trout or is it predominantly smallmouth and musky?

Yeah, so he, he had always done smallmouth or, sorry, always done trout on a couple of the tail waters.

We kind of got away from that in the last couple years.

We, I mean, on occasion we'll go down there and like in an emergency type scenario where, you know, somebody's in town, you know, they don't want to reschedule, they can't reschedule, things like that.

And we will go do some tailwater trout work, but it's, it's not something we advertise anymore.

We're primarily fishing smallmouth bass and muskie on a few watersheds that are, that are kind of in a good radius of Roanoke, Virginia, where the company is.

Based out of Gotcha.

So that means you're probably what, you know, trout pinch is your fish in the Jackson and then smallmouth probably what, like the New river, the James.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

So for, for trout it was, it was the Jackson and the Smith, which again, both of which are, that's the nice thing about Roanoke is within, you know, a good radius of, of Roanoke.

There's tons of great fishing opportunities.

So it really wasn't that bad to get to the Jackson or even the Smith.

I mean, the Smith is, is a lot closer than people give it credit for.

So.

And the Smith is a great tailwater trout fisher.

And so we did some of that.

And like I said, we still, we still will.

It's very rare.

And then smallmouth is on the New river and on the James we fish both a little bit of the Upper New and then primarily the Lower New or what Virginians know is the lower New from Radford to about the West Virginia line and then muskie, same thing.

Upper James from its headwaters to, you know, about Balcony Falls for both smallmouth and muskie and then muskie on the New river as well.

Got it.

And you know, as you've mentioned to folks, you've got a year round fishery.

So why don't we kind of walk through kind of what the guide season looks like.

We'll just start like, why don't we start, you know, end of October, beginning of November and we'll just go all the way around the calendar and you can kind of tell us like, you know, what you're looking for or what the opportunities are for the angler.

Yeah.

So this time of year, you know that, that late fall Getting into November, it's really transitional for us and you know, we're, we're shifting hard from, from smallmouth bass fishing to, to muskie fishing.

And you know, it's kind of your, your last days of smallmouth fishing.

So, you know, those bigger fish are, are putting the feedback on.

The minnow bite is good.

Bait fish bites good.

So fishing streamers, you know, when it's low and clear like this and cooling, you know, well, we're, you know, I, I've got two extremes right now.

So the James is low and clear, knee high on a duck.

And you know, the new is very off color still from Helene because of the dam fed factor.

So you've still got some green water over there.

It's, it's, it's straining in, in a good direction, but it can make for good late season smallmouth fishing.

Low and clear.

It can be tough with, with rapidly cooling water.

Um, even when they're trying to put the feedback on, they're real spooky, you know, really lethargic mornings.

And you know, your best bite is lunchtime to, you know, 3, 4pm, 5pm and then it gets cool in the evenings and they kind of, they can shut off again.

So we don't, I mean the, we don't do a ton of late, late fall smallmouth.

You know, I kind of comfortably book out, you know, all the way through, I would say second week of October under normal circumstances.

And then if the conditions are good, you know, we've got a, a good set of clients that we just reach out to, you know, say third week, fourth week of October, we got green water and the fishing's good.

You know, hey, you know, if you want to get out, you know, one of us has got Tuesday or Thursday.

So that's kind of how we fill in that, those kind of last days of small mouth.

And then right about October 1st to like that second week of October, the temps will be good for, for muskie fishing after, you know, really hot, arduous summer for them.

And that's when we start doing a lot of our fall muskie fishing.

It's actually a great time of year for the fly rod.

It's where we shine and you know, you're dealing with low, clear water typically.

And you know, the, that's where that kind of subtle fly, you know, fly entry to the water, less noise in a fly than say, like gear.

And when they're super spooky in the fall, which they can be, you know, especially as you get into November and they've Been targeted now for a month with these, you know, normal temperatures or safe temperatures to fish them.

Didn't get spooky.

I mean, it's just being out, you know, the other day, you know, you're.

You're moving 10 to 15 fish in a day, and, you know, you're.

You're hoping for one to eat away from the boat, and so you're maybe having three eats, you know, one of them stays on.

And that's, you know, those are.

Those are good expectations because if they make it to the boat in this low, clear water, they're probably going to be looking at you, and you're going to be looking at them.

And it's.

I mean, it's just that awkward moment to watch them turn and swim off because, I mean, you can.

We always joke, you can, you can read a magazine at the bottom of a hole in the river when it's like this.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because even in, like, downtown Lynchburg, there used to be a lot of heavy industry there when I was a kid.

And I mean, the water's so clear at the dam down there, it kind of blows you away.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it, you know, it's nice that we don't.

We don't deal with that.

I don't spend a lot of time down there, but I've.

Not the first time I've heard it.

It's nice that we don't deal with as much of those factors particularly on the James anymore.

And obviously the Upper James has had its fair share of problems as well.

But, you know, coming out of the.

The Jackson and Cow Pasture watersheds.

But, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's par for the course.

This time of year is pretty much low and clear.

I mean, crystal clear, tap water clear.

And then as we get into, you know, December, if you want me to keep moving on, if we get into that, that winter time frame, typically what you see is like, October and November can be like, low precipitation.

Particularly October can be low precipitation months in Appalachia.

And so once you get into that November and December, that's when we start getting some of those winter, you know, rains and sometimes snow and, you know, you'll start to get higher water flows and you'll get that green of the water.

And that's kind of like the stuff that we love in the winter.

You know, it makes some of those, you know, you're obviously fishing bigger fly patterns.

You know, I didn't really touch on it too much, but in the fall, you know, whether it's, it's smallmouth, you're using small streamers, sometimes going to the bottom and with muskie, I mean, this time of year is great for people who've always wanted to try muskie fishing because your number, you do see a lot more fish.

And then, you know, we're using 7 inch flies versus 12 inch flies.

You know, it's low and clear.

We're using light on flash.

A lot of times we're using 10 weights with intermediates rather than 12 weights and full sinking lines.

So this time of year, going back to it a little bit can be great if you've ever wanted to try, you know, muskie fishing on the fly.

And then as we get into, you know, your December, January, February, we're, we're not doing really any smallmouth fishing.

You know, as we get into late February, we'll, we'll start to pick it back up for sure.

Especially as we've had, you know, higher or warmer average winters in the last five, ten years.

But, but yeah, so we're not doing much smallmouth fishing.

It's.

Musky is 100% the focus for the most part.

And it's when you're getting your higher average flows, your greener water, they're eating bigger forage.

So that's like what people think of as your, you know, traditional 12 weight, full sinking line, grinding it out with big flies, heavy, you know, heavy tackle, heavy flies.

And that's kind of at times what can put people off from muskie fishing.

And, and Josh, you know, always stressed that, you know, talking to people is like, obviously musky is not a game for somebody who just bought a fly rod.

I, I, you know, I would never, you know, try to sell somebody a musky day that's, that's really green, you know, because they're not going to go out and have a good time and they're going to struggle.

And you know, I've seen people who are, who, who are, you know, on the newer end of, of anglers, had great days and catch a fish on the first cast or, you know, what, what have you, but it's not something that we would ever necessarily push.

But I think that, you know, Josh are the best.

Like if you, if you have a good, like if good set of fundamental, like in, in casting and line management and all these things, we can work with that.

And, and I think people get put off from muskie fishing more than they should.

And there's kind of a misconception that, you know, it's either you know, a, you know, like big bearded dudes game, you know, covered in tattoos or whatever.

And, and you know, you gotta be strong to cast these lines.

And, and I don't think that's the case.

Case or the Cassidy's rods.

I mean, I don't think that's the case whatsoever.

If you have that strong set of fundamentals.

I think anybody can, can musky fish and can be successful.

But that is, you know, your winter is when it is the most arduous for sure.

You know, 12 weights, 500 grain sinking lines, 12 inch flies, sometimes 10 inch flies.

And you know, obviously your, your numbers go down.

You're, you're targeting a lot of the larger fish in the system that time of year.

And whereas, you know, this week we may move 15 fish in a day, you know, in December, January, February, we may only move four, you know, or two or one or sometimes none.

I don't care what anybody tells you.

There are days where you go out on a fly rod fishing for muskie and you don't see him.

It just, it happens and you're basically taking a hard game and making it harder.

You know, they're, they're extremely sensitive lateral line feeders and we're trying to feed them bucktail and flash and feathers, you know, so we're, we're at a little bit of a disadvantage when you've got those normal winter flows.

And so we're kind of targeting, you know, those slow pools, you know, deep ledges, submerged timber, all those kind of things where, you know, they kind of have their winter haunts.

And as we kind of get into that late winter, February, early March, you know, that's when their smallmouth rods start to come out and we start doing a lot of early season pre spawn guiding for smallmouth.

And they were still musky fishing guiding typically up until about March 10th.

Muskie really won't spawn on an average year until third week, fourth week of March, unless we have an exceptionally warm winter, which we have been trending towards that every year.

But we mainly put the musky rods down in that early spring because the bass fishing gets hot.

And you know, that's your best time to catch as you know, your 20 plus inch bass, your 5 pound plus bass on, on a big swim fly.

And that's, I mean, honestly, I think all three of us, you know, as much as we love muskie and we do love that Grind, you know, March 15 through April 20 is, is probably my favorite 30 days, 35 days of the year because it's, it's just electric and it's the biggest fish in the system.

Eating the best way to fish for them, in my opinion.

Which I do love top water too, but, you know, I would.

I don't think there's anything quite like, you know, watching in that green water, watching a 20 plus inch smallmouth, you know, inhale a swim, fly, you know, a couple feet, few feet below the surface and you get to watch the whole thing.

And, and she's the fattest she'll be all year.

That's.

That's a pretty cool thing.

Yeah.

And then the fight, right?

Like, you know, oh God, you know, I mean, the smallmouth fight versus the muskie fight, like, there's a lot of stuff you have to do, right, to get a muskie to the boat, but they're not running around and you know, that's just not their M.O.

right?

No.

And, and actually we tell people a lot of times.

I was just talking to a client earlier today.

I, I think that pound for pound, your best fighting muskie is actually like a three foot muskie.

Those are the ones that do cartwheels.

They do go on longer runs and you see them kick that tail and they jolt and shoot further.

Whereas, you know, the picture muskie, which, you know, obviously everybody loves that you're 40 to 50 inch Muskie.

They're.

It's, it's, you know, it's.

Josh does the best.

It's.

It's like fighting a gorilla in a phone booth.

I mean, it's, it's chaotic.

They're throwing their body weight around.

It's a lot of head shaking.

But they're not going on huge runs.

Typically seasonally they will, you know, early fall in the spring, post spawn when they're jacked up and their metabolism's high.

But for the most part, it's a lot of head shaking.

There's a lot of opening their mouth and it's like the rod is bent, but it's all within a certain distance of the boat, you know, and you're still holding on and it's, it's a very chaotic moment and it's very likely for them to come off because they have really hard mouths.

And it's, you know, we tell people, you know, rod tip in the water and you're stripping and they come tight to them and strip again and strip again.

Don't even worry about bending a rod because a lot of times you'll get them in the net.

And as soon as that tension comes off that line and there's any slack that Fly just pops right out of their mouth.

And it makes you wonder, you know, whether they were just clamped or lightly hooked or they were, you know, or if it was hooked at all.

You know, how easy they come out.

So, you know, it is chaotic for sure, and it's fun.

But I tell people muskie is more about the, the bite than the fight.

And on the flip side, I think pound for pound, smallmouth bass are some of the, if not the best freshwater fighting fish.

You know, it's, it's their bulldogs, their little freight trains, you know, and they do cool stuff, whether it's jumping, you know, belly rolling, going in front of the boat, going on, you know, little runs.

They're not going on saltwater runs.

But you know, I've seen some really impressive fights on a smallmouth bass, as I'm sure you have too.

So they do cool stuff.

And I mean, for it to be an accessible fish.

I don't think there's a better fish in, in freshwater, especially where we are, you know, because you know, you're having higher number of days, no matter what, no matter what time of the year than you would muskie fishing.

And even on the worst day, you know, you're catching, you're catching bass and that's, that's, yeah, there's, there's something good about that.

So, I mean, it's, yeah, I think their fight is super underrated.

And I think as they grow and get some more popularity, you know, guys like Blaine and Mike Schultz have really.

And Tam at tight lines.

Like they've, they've kind of, you know, shown to everybody, you know, for a long time now.

It's been a lot of hard work.

But that small mouth bass really are badass.

I mean, they're, they're, they're cool fish and they're, they're kind of a perfect fly rod fish if you ask me, the subsurface.

They eat on the bottom and they eat on top, you know, all seasonally.

So I think that's pretty hard to beat.

Yeah.

And so you were saying, right.

So you kind of come out, you're, you get to kind of like, you know, mid to late April, right.

Then you got the spawn.

You know, why don't you take us through kind of, you know, post spawn smallmouth all the way to top water.

Kind of where we are today.

Yeah.

So again, like going back to the year round fishery, what's nice is by generally May 1 and, and a lot of times a little earlier, and sometimes they're stragglers into early May Your musky are done spawning.

So while the smallmouth are on beds, we leave them alone.

And what's nice about smallmouth and muskie and most fish is they don't.

There's not like a light switch and they just all spawn at once.

You know, you're typically spawning in stages.

So there in my opinion there's no reason to ever target smallmouth bass on beds.

Something I don't do and it's not something I would ever advocate anybody doing, you know.

And so you know, trout get a lot of, you know, they get a kind of the protection from the fly fishing base, you know, the don't fish over reds.

Like I'm a big proponent.

Same thing for smallmouth.

And what's nice places, there's different water types.

You're always going to find post spawn fish, you know, even as early as mid April.

Some of your biggest fish spawn earlier in April.

And then by mid April, third week of April, the latest, you'll have fish that are post spawn smallmouth.

So you can always target them in water that you know, isn't bed water, which it's really obvious when it is.

I mean somebody, somebody said that they didn't know that that fish was on a bed.

I think they'd be lying to you because you know, unless the water's super green, you know, which it can be that time of year, it certainly, I mean often is.

But there's certain water types you're targeting and, and we know as guides and most people that are out there all the time can differentiate, you know, bed water versus seam water, feeding water, you know, what have you.

But yeah, as you're getting into that spawn, you know, then that postpawn muskie is great.

Another time of year we tell people, you know, if you ever wanted to try muskie fishing, this is a good way to kind of dip your toes in, you know, because you're not out there freezing.

Your numbers typically go up and it's another time of year where they're eating heavily, you know, coming off that spawn.

And we're fishing smaller flies.

A lot of times we're fishing intermediate line.

They're really chasey, they're really bitey.

It's not uncommon to, you know, just like in the fall to go out in May and early June and move five to 10 to 15 fish, you know, on a fly and have some eats and have some to the net and, and whatnot.

And then you're not, you know, if you, if you ever thought like, well I don't know about the cold or the 12 inch flies, that's a great time of year for people.

Their metabolism, super high.

They're putting on the feedback before what they know is a long summer.

And you know, and then once you get into that May and, and stuff with, with the bass too, a lot of them are postponed.

They're still, you know, hang on, the year will be some spawning and that bite can be phenomenal as well.

And a lot of times it just goes right back to that bait fish bite.

We're incorporating a lot of top water, a lot of active top water that time of year.

So if people, you know, they're.

Once you get into the summer, you know, we're dealing with a lot more of those kind of subtle, you know, cork bug eats and whatnot.

This, that time of year, May and June can be great for the people who just can't help but pop a booba bard.

So like, you know, if you have any doubts that you could come out in August or September and not pop a bug as much, you know, May and June is kind of where you're going to shine because those are some really good bites on the booga bug, you know, popping them top water bait fish, subsurface bait fish.

Sometimes, you know, we're going to start scaling down a little bit from your 6, 7 inch, you know, smallmouth bass flies and going into that 4, 5 inch sometimes still using the bigger flies too.

But it's all about water conditions that time of year.

And that time of year can be electric.

If you get green water post spawn, if you got really full rivers and it's green and everything, that can be unreal small round fishing.

This spring was a good example of that where you post spawn.

We got green water, we got plenty of water and it's like the spawn didn't even happen.

You know, they got fat again after they spawned.

They were eating, you know, the same size flies and it was great.

Now going back to last year after spawn, it was low and clear immediately, not a ton of water.

And things are a little tougher.

You know, your post spawn bite can still be good that time of year, but they can vary based on those river conditions for sure.

And in that case, you know, last year we were using a lot more finesse, a lot less flash, you know, longer leaders, be more careful about tackle or your, you know, your, your leader going down a certain tip it.

Whereas this spring, I mean you could throw, you know, 16, 20 pound tip, bite tip and arm and you were catching nice bass, you know, throughout the day.

So and then, you know, once you get into that June 10, June 15, we typically shut down Moscow.

And you know, the common science or the, you know, the, the standard I guess is 80 degree water temps.

We don't even get close to it.

And what's nice too is having this year round fishery.

We don't even, we don't want to push it and there's no need to push it.

So despite the fact that the bite can be great all the way up until July 4th or some years, been beyond, not these last few summers, I'm sure, you know, we're extremely hot.

But you know, we, we normally shut it down right around that 75 or even less water, water temps.

And, and that's just our own personal choice.

You know, I would never advocate for fishing for muskie close to that 80 degrees or beyond 80 degrees particularly, and never targeting muskie, you know, in those dog days of summer when they're on refuge water, you know, right off the springs or creeks or what have you, you know, they're doing everything they can just to survive.

And I think especially as a guide service, we, we owe it to them to give them time, you know, while they're, they're dealing with those higher water temps to where we're not targeting them.

And I don't think anybody should be.

But you see it, it happens.

We try to, you know, spread the good word.

But you know, from June all the way through the summer, I mean there's little micro changes in the summer that we could go over.

You know, your June going into July, you know, you're getting off that bait fish bite where they were super heavy on that, you know, aggressive feeding like they did, it gets green post spawn.

But if you're going clear, you know, clear May and June and July, that's where some of those, you know, subtle presentations, finesse presentations can be more of a factor for sure and be more productive.

And then, you know, your July is a lot of your, your bug fishing and you're, we're doing some of the, you know, you're Mr.

Wiggly fishing on a six weight, which is a ton of fun.

And July can be, you know, great numbers.

You know, we're fishing small game changers, helgramites, you know, you know, the little hover mite changers, crawl changers, you know, throughout the day you're varying your approach and when the top water bites good, it's hard to get away from it.

I think you would probably agree most like anybody in the summer, I mean if they're going to eat top water all day.

You know, bug fishing, which is what's great about Virginia and it's kind of what we're known for is why would you step away from it.

But there are times as a guide and even as anglers we had to, you know, I'm sure you've seen it where you go out hoping to bug them all day and then the first few hours are not bugging and you're not bugging until about lunch.

And you know, everybody always, you hear a lot of people talk about how, you know that middle of the day is, is terrible for smallmouth fishing.

Right.

And I disagree.

I think some of the best top water fishing I have throughout the summer is you know, 11am on and then obviously as you get into your evening, the top water bites fantastic.

But you go from July into August and that's kind of your, your traditional cork bug.

I mean you can obviously target them on Google bugs too.

Those work without a doubt.

But in Virginia, you know, August and September kind of known as your cork bug time of year.

And you know, you're hunting those shade lines, those banks, I mean and I think people leave a lot of meat on the bones that both rivers that I guide, some of the best top water reeds are mid river midday even in August.

So there's just certain knowing your fishery is huge that way, but I'm sure you love it as much as I do.

But that August and September, you know, cork bug bite is, you know that in the pre spawn, you know, swim, fly bite their neck and neck.

For me, obviously the fish on his fat in August or September, but a lot of times we're still hunting those bigger fish on those top water bugs.

And it's pretty epic to watch them eat it because it shifts from a subtle eat that kind of sucking it under toilet bowl to oh my God, like they crash it.

As you're getting into September and they're podding up October, they're potting up that top water bite goes from subtle to not subtle very quickly.

Yeah.

And one of the great things about you know, if you kind of, you know, get out, let's say middle September until kind of the end of the top water season kind of, you know, we're, I guess, you know, that's probably happened, I don't know, within the last week or so, um, is it's not so hot.

It's kind of the benefit of like fishing post spawn muskie.

You can get to go do the top water thing but you don't have to go, you know, experience 98 degrees and, you know, 85% humidity.

Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think.

I think September is an extremely underrated month to be out there.

I'm sure you've seen it where, you know, some of our rivers are heavily trafficked from recreational, you know, boaters, kayakers, canoers, whatnot.

And then it's like, you know, it kind of coincides with a lot of the cicada fall, you know, when you get those cool nights, the kids go back to school and everybody's, you know, they don't.

They land out of vacation days.

And so September is nice.

And I tell people that all the time where it's like, you know, come top water fish with me in September.

And they're always like, well, what about July and August?

And, you know, you kind of explain it.

You're.

You're very un.

It's.

It's.

You're unlikely to see anybody, you know, that time of year in September, and that top water bite is still good, if not sometimes better than it is in August, you know, and things shift year to year where the top water bite can be better earlier or later.

But September is a great time to smallmouth fish in general, whether you're talking top water or not, because they do start to shift, you know, gradually in September and October back to that bait fish bite, and then we'll catch them on top water.

I mean, I think Josh and I caught last top water smallmouth in November last year.

So, I mean, it's not something I would ever advocate for, but I mean, they do eat.

They will eat top water, you know, and I'm just talking top water bug like a Chuck Kraft cicada ate one in November last year.

And I'm sure people have stories where they caught them and, you know, December on them or whatnot.

But.

But I mean, it does happen.

And, and what's nice is that time of year you're seeing less people, less people, you know, traffic in the river and the fishing is still great.

And like you said, the weather is phenomenal.

And going back to what you said about the muskie is, you know, you're trading waders and big puffy jackets in December for in May.

You're fishing for muskie and, you know, at most, you know, river pants, but probably shorts and flip flops and a sun shirt.

You know, you're basically flats fishing.

The water's still cool that time of year in May, and you're fishing for muskie and you're fishing them with.

With much sparser shorter flies, easier to tackle and whatnot.

But same thing, you know, this these last couple summers, which, and you're familiar with too, these have been hot summer, particularly early on and you know, we had days where I tried to reschedule people or, you know, I would cancel if it was egregious where, you know, you're over 100 degrees, smallmouth fishing and you're in July.

And to be honest with you, I don't think that's comfortable for anybody.

You know, young folks.

Sure, you know, I'll go out there and do it if somebody wants to.

But you know that while we have a year round fishery, July can be really, really hot.

And it's a great time to vacation.

It's a great time to be on the new river, the James River.

So I never want to dissuade somebody but, but you know, I try to put, you know, almost push people, you know, reading that room or, or whatnot.

You know, if I can tell it's a factor for them, I'll be like, hey, you know, I know you think July top water Bogan is the best, but actually September is great and you're going to be ten times more comfortable.

So I agree with you wholeheartedly there.

I think that's an underrated aspect of coming out and fishing that time of year.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I always like to ask outfitters too.

They always have something they're kind of known for or sets them apart from, I hate to say competition, but other people that do what you do.

Right.

And, and so Austin, what do you think, you know, Virginia trophy guides does that's different from other guys out on the river?

Yeah.

So I, I think that the, you know, Josh and I, when especially you know, with the smallmouth program, I mean we, we really do pride ourselves on having a good program for, for targeting the big fish in the system and, you know, kind of carrying that torch, you know, that, that, you know, Blaine kind of started in this region with, with targeting those fish on swim flies and game changers and doing it the way we want to do it, but still, you know, not sacrificing the experience for somebody, you know, because sometimes swim flies are not easy for everybody to cast or, or what have you.

And so I think that we definitely pride ourselves on the pursuit of like, big fish.

And that's, that's kind of what I think separates us, you know, maybe in this, in this region, you know, where we're hoping to take people that they want to grind it out for the biggest smallmouth in that system, you know, that kind of swim fly tradition down here in the mid Atlantic, I think that's.

That's something that we pride ourselves on and then being really approachable.

You know, the guides, you know, that was a big thing with, with, you know, working with.

First, working with Josh is the experience and showing somebody a good time and being somebody that, you know, a client wants to spend eight to 12 hours a day with.

So that's another thing too, is creating that experience for somebody that, you know, from the time they book to beyond, you know, it's easy for them.

They're having a good time, you know, despite the conditions and enjoying their time with you on the water.

And we do too.

I mean, that's, you know, we.

We wouldn't do it if we didn't love it.

So.

So, yeah, I think that, you know, employing a lot of things that, you know, maybe are not necessarily unique to us, but.

Or maybe unique to this region, you know, some of that, you know, Midwest tradition, you know, some of the stuff that Schultz employs, applying it or, you know, pioneered and applying it down here, you know, kind of trying to carry that torch that Blaine started down here with the game changer tradition and targeting the biggest fish in that system with.

With those flies triggering that predatory.

That predatory bite.

I think that that's something that, that I pride myself on and, and, you know, try to learn from those guys and, and, you know, adapted to my own and, and sharing that experience with people.

Because I think that that's one of those things that people book, you know, based a lot of times on that because they're like, man, I, you know, I can't tell you how often we get that where people are like, look, you know, I, I want to, you know, learn how to fish a game changer or swinging D or a leggy boy.

Like, they're like, I just.

I'm not getting it.

You know what I mean?

I'm going out in mid April.

Something's not clicking.

They book a trip and like, it's like a light switch sometimes, because despite the fact that you're fishing, the engineering in those flies, a lot of times, you know, mixed with the tackle that matches the scenario and those flies, there is still a little bit of.

Not even a little bit.

There is absolutely angler effort and guide effort that goes into it.

And there's, you know, we're.

We're helping you fish those flies, you know, whether you know it or not.

And, and then it's like, it clicks and they, they end up hanging A big fish.

And they're like, oh man.

Like, okay, I get it.

You know, and that's, that's something that I really enjoy is being able to share that kind of experience with clients.

Yeah, I mean, it's an amazing thing.

I mean, YouTube has its place, but there's really no substitute for being on the water with people who know the fishery and kind of know the game inside out.

I mean, I always tell people that are kind of new in the sport or feel kind of stuck that the best thing you can do is to go find a good teaching guide and go spend some time on the water with them.

Absolutely.

I'm a firm believer and I tell clients my, you know, they're, hey, we're going down to, you know, the Outer Banks or, or Virginia beach or wherever.

Right.

And they're like, where, where should I go fish?

And the first thing I tell them is like, look, you know, finances allow.

You should always book a guide.

You're gonna, I mean, your time is going to be better spent despite, you know, the fact that there's an entry cost.

Your time is going to be better spent, you know, with a guide.

Because whenever you're in this, you know, you're in the New River Valley or you're down in Virginia beach or whatever, you may only have eight hours to fit that entire week or four days or however long you are, it might as well be spent with somebody that's going to put you in the best position to succeed.

Right.

And then also you may learn something or you should, in my opinion, learn something that you can take somewhere else.

That's, that's a big thing with me.

You know, I'm hoping that somebody will leave.

And it may not always translate from smallmouth or muskie to a redfish trip, but they can be a little bit better.

And you know, most guides that you're going to book with, or hopefully most guys you're going to book with, are going to employ that same philosophy where, you know, there's just something that you can learn along the way throughout the trip and leave with it and it'll stick with you forever.

So, so yeah, I'm, I'm a big proponent of that is, is at the very least, at the very least you should find a fly shop or something, go in there and chat with them, because there's nothing, like you said, that's going to be on the water experience and, and YouTube can be great too, for sure.

But, but the hands on experience is hard to beat.

Yeah.

And then I always say, if You've gone to all that trouble to find the best guide.

Please listen to them.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, we.

We definitely appreciate when people listen.

It's like, it's.

It can be the difference between.

And I tell people this all the time.

Like, you don't want to seem like a nag, but, you know, you kind of reinforce, like, hey, you know, I don't want to just be here to row you down the river.

That's not my job.

So, like, hey, slow it down.

You know, put a pause in that.

You know, whatever.

And it's like, boom, there's one.

And they're like, oh, you know, it's like, sometimes you'll have those moments where people are like, you know, they're hitting fish, and then they're like, 20 minutes where they've got completely off rhythm, and then they're like, you think we should switch the fly?

And I'm like, hey, let me show you something real quick.

You put it back in there, you fish it the exact same way they were fishing at 30 minutes ago.

And then, boom, there's a fish, you hand it to them, and it's.

That's always such, like a, ah.

Moment where it's like, yeah, you just got.

You got a little off track.

But that's another thing.

I mean, I love when people all day, like, I think people think that it's annoying, but they're like, I love when people all day ask questions and they're engaged.

If you're.

If you're engaged with me and we're chatting all day, we're.

That's more often than not.

That's a successful day.

You know, we're like, you know, we're.

We're sharing in this experience.

We're.

We're partners here.

I'm trying to watch you succeed, and I love that.

And it doesn't ever bother me.

I mean, sometimes it's funny.

And then you, you know, you end up asking the same things over and over again.

But I would prefer that than somebody who books a trip and then, you know, doesn't.

It doesn't want to learn anything all day, you know, because I'm not there to just row somebody down a river.

That's not the experience with me.

You know what I mean?

I'm there to help you hunt the fly for specific fish or help you grow as an angler.

And.

And I think you're right.

I mean, just listen to your guide.

I know that's a common trope, but, yeah, listen, I don't care where you go Louisiana, California, New York, Bahamas.

Listen to your guide and ask questions.

They'll tell you if they want you to stop asking them.

But I think you should, you should start by asking questions.

Yeah, for sure.

And so let's see, we've got, so if we want to like kind of walk through the rest of the team at Virginia Trophy guys, it's, it's you and Josh and then you've got Skippy Britches, right?

Is the kind of the new young guy, Braden Miller?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Josh and I are, you know, co owners of Virginia Trophy Guides.

And, and Josh, like I said, he's been a fly fishing and conventional tackle guide and on both the new and the James river for over two decades.

And then Braden, you know, that was, that's the new addition, I guess, in the last year, two years.

You know, he, he is a really talented, really funny kid.

And he's, he's not only an exceptional angler and it at times will make you self conscious cushion around him.

But, but he's, he's really turned into a phenomenal guide and at a very young age.

And he did his first season up in Alaska with Josh and I think that was kind of a growing experience.

In the last couple years, he's mated for Jake Jordan down in North Carolina for Albies and Bull Drum.

And this year we actually went down and fished with him actually just a few days ago.

You know, he's kind of, you know, like as Jake wants a day off or days off or whatever.

Braden's running the boat.

You know, he's a full licensed captain.

We all are.

And, you know, and he did a, it wasn't a shock to us, but he, he worked his ass off for the couple days we were down there.

And you know, he's, like I said for 19, it's, it's pretty impressive.

The guy that he's turning into, he's got all the talents in the world.

Humble kid, funny as can be, man.

Yeah.

Skippy Britches.

I can't.

What is it that.

Well, his mom calls him Precious and Blaine likes to call him Precious too.

We all like to call him Precious.

I love that.

That's out on the airwaves.

Yeah.

So if you see him at a show and then you can also impress us and you'll also, if you talk to him in a fly fishing show, he doesn't like to sell his flies.

So.

No, no, he's, it's for.

And that's another thing too.

I mean, he is an exceptionally talented fly tire and I Think that part of it too is, you know, he doesn't get enough credit for.

I mean, he, it was like, we joke.

He was born in a fly fishing booth, you know, and he was, you know, I mean, in a lot of ways he's been there and present in that part of the industry for.

Since he was what, 12?

I mean, you've known him longer than I have and you know, he's a talented tire and I think he's just like, he spent so long doing it.

I have seen it now where he works shows with us where he's trying to talk about his fishing program.

And it's like he's almost trying to make time take a slight back seat because he's.

People are like, hey, hey, how do I do this?

How do I do this?

And he's like, I want to talk to you about smallmouth fishing or muskie fishing or albie fishing, you know, so.

So yeah, he's.

He will not.

He won't.

He won't sell you any flies.

He won't even sell me flies.

So good luck.

You need to talk to his mom.

She'll get it set for you.

Yeah, she'll get them straight.

So that's your team.

And you touched on this a little bit and we talked about this in the pre interview talk, but you've kind of brushed up against it while we've been talking this evening.

I'm a little bit older than Blaine, but we're about the same age, so we kind of have a similar perspective on what the fisheries were like when we were younger in central Virginia.

And Blaine certainly more so than me because, you know, I didn't have access to a boat as a kid, so.

But I know, you know, you've been in the game long enough to see the changes.

I mean, you know, we've got a great program, you know, kind of in, you know, the mid Atlantic, but people also know it's a great program.

And so we've seen a pretty radical increase in fishing pressure and we've certainly seen impacts on fishing populations.

I mean, I think, you know, knock on wood, we've had probably in the last five or six years pretty good smallmouth spawns.

But, you know, the fisheries are certainly not what they were say in the 80s or the 90s, and was kind of curious, you know, your thoughts on what you think we need to do so that current and future generations can continue to enjoy the resource.

And probably an add on question there is another piece of this puzzle is we're seeing more and more tech Creep into fishing.

And that's kind of code for live scoping and things like that.

So why don't you let folks know what you think about all that stuff?

Yeah, so I mean, as far as that question goes, I, you know, I can, I can speak to my, my own experience kind of only here where, you know, when I was younger, when I was a kid, teenager fishing with, with my grandfather, you know, it was not uncommon on the New river to have these banner days.

Right.

You know, and, and I grew up fishing with gear, you know, so there's an asterisk a little bit or in the fly fishing world there's considered an asterisk.

But you know, where you would see, you know, you could see 10, 15, 20 citation fish days a smallmouth in March and April, you know, where you're catching citations, you know, left and right, back to back and not even moving tons of river miles.

And you know, talking to Josh and Blaine, sometimes it does make me sick to hear about, you know, the salad date, like when they were guiding in the early 2000s and you have, you know, 10 musky days and you're all these things which, I mean, they can still happen.

Don't get me wrong, you know, the fish are still there.

In fact the muskie populations according to our, you know, to our state agencies or in better density, better shape than they've ever been.

But you know, those days where there was the lack of pressure, you know, when I was younger, I mean we would go to a boat ramp, you know, on the New river or whatever and you wouldn't see anybody else and, and that was a Saturday or Sunday, you may see one other guy, you know what I mean?

So, you know, obviously the pressures increased the way that, and I think that it's, it's a, it's a mixture of pressure and then it's exactly what you said.

So the number one enemy to successful, you know, small mouth populations in Appalachia.

But let's just say, you know, the two rivers I guide specifically are, is the fact that when they spawn and right post spawn is a lady season.

You know, in Appalachia, you know, temperate rainforest, you know, people forget.

And so the blowouts hurt those fish, hurt the numbers.

You know, traditionally speaking it can.

There are obviously years where it's really bad for a couple of years.

And then like you said, you know, the last four or five years have been fantastic spawn classes.

We've had, you know, minimal high water events during their spawning and those classes have gone out off with a bang.

And it Makes you look forward and happy for what's to come in the next eight years, 10 years when you know you've got a really healthy population of 18 to 22 inch bass, things like that, which right now, particularly on the new, where I do 90% of, you know, my smallmouth guiding or almost all of it, I would say, you know, we've got a really healthy population of 18 to 22 inch bass.

But to counter that we've also got more pressure than we ever had.

And I don't think a lot of people realize this either, but the New River, I can't remember what the publication was, but it was like a bigger kind of outdoor publication.

But the New river was considered in the top 10 best smallmouth bass fisheries in the country and it was the only one in the top 10 that was a river.

So it's known for having large smallies and having a large or high density of smallies and particularly large smallings.

It's got all the, all the trappings of a great smallmouth river habitat, flow, things like that.

Food, I mean it's a food factory.

I mean it's, you know, I'm sure you've seen it too.

But I mean crawl dads that their tails at your wrist and their claws are beyond your middle finger, you know, lobsters and you know, helgrites galore, stone rollers, suckers, chubbs, whatever.

But you know, the pressure is higher than it ever has been.

And a lot of that is, you know, social media, YouTube, post Covid and that stuff happens.

And I think, you know, the big thing and Josh and I preach this, it's our job to navigate the increasing pressure and do the best we can despite it.

So while it can be frustrating and really what the only thing that's frustrating to me about it because it is a free country, is that the only frustrating thing I see is that as the pressure increases, I would like to see safe handling practices really preached and employed.

You see people, I see it all the time where people, they deck load muskies into jet boats.

They, they put smallmouth bass on their kayak to measure them in July at 1pm and it's just cooking one side of them and you know, like those kind of things.

I would like to see, you know, particularly our state agencies, you know, really drive home.

I'm, I, I'm less interested in seeing them post what fisheries are great.

And I mean you can tell the bdgif I said this, but you know, what fisheries are great.

And I don't have A problem with that.

But on the flip side, what I would like to see them do is take a step in the right direction for safe fish handling practices.

And that's a big thing.

Wetting your bump board, minimizing your handling period.

If you catch a big muskie, you know, having a big net or catch a muskie, or if you're muskie fishing, having a big net and, you know, needle nose pliers and wire cutters and all the things that I think are just as important as the right tackle to take care of them.

And if you get a nice one, take it to the bank, take care of it.

And you know what I'm also sick of seeing is, is a vertical hold on muskie.

It's terrible for them, you know, supporting them.

And one, it makes for a better picture.

Two, you know, with you hold them by the tail, you support their belly, and guess what?

When you hold their belly, their mouth drops open and it gives them that classic iconic musky look.

You know, where, where their mouth is, is.

Is open and you see all those teeth.

And so, I mean, there's certain things, you know, and, and I could catch grief for it, and that's fine.

I don't care.

I'm willing to go to bat for it.

But, you know, certain things, with the increasing pressure, like I said, it's a free country.

I'm all about people enjoying our resources as Americans.

But I would like to see everybody take a step in the right direction.

State agencies, outfitters, guides, what have you, pushing safe handling practices as more and more people get on the water.

And that's something that we, all three of us, and I mean, we stress this to Braden, you know, Josh stressed it to me, and something that I already, you know, was passionate about.

But whenever we were handling these fish with clients, you know, we, we walked them step by step, you know, in case they go smallmouth fishing or muskie fishing anywhere or, you know, on the same, same watersheds.

And I want to see them take care of those fish.

And so I show them, you know, look, here's when you would need new jaw spreaders.

Here's when, you know, you need these needle nose pliers.

Look, you need a big net.

And here's why, you know, with the bass, it's the same thing.

You know, you don't want to cook them on the side of my drift boat, you know, on the, on the rod trace.

You know, you want to wet your bump board.

You know, you want to minimize the handling.

You want to not jaw jack them, you know, Just, I mean, we're out there fishing for them, and at a certain point, too, we're.

We are poking them in the face with steel, but you want to do everything you can, you know, unless you're harvesting them to.

To take care of them and ensure that they're there for the next time or somebody else, you know, so that's, you know, that navigating the pressure is tough, for sure.

And.

But it's.

The way we look at it is it's.

It's not going to change, and it is my job.

And.

And, you know, Josh would tell me, you know, there's no excuse for it, and we would tell Braden the same thing, you know, tough luck.

I mean, there's people out there now.

It is what it is.

Nobody's got the river to themselves, and that's fine.

I enjoy watching people enjoy the resource.

But, you know, as far as the electronics go, like, what I would say about that is I've got, you know, for certain things, like on a.

You know, we don't guide any lakes, you know, for elide scope and sonar.

All those things are.

They can be absolutely necessary on a lake system, and I don't have a ton of lake fishing or guiding experience, but they can be necessary on the river you're on.

And it'll crack me up.

Like, I'll be at a boat ramp, and you see these jet boats and like, hey, man, we scoped six muskie right here.

And they're like, telling you, and you're like, dude, they go to that same spot every year in May.

You know, it's like, that's where they go.

Like you're sitting in an eddie that, you know, it's hard.

It's like you said, it's hard to beat on the time hand or on the water.

Hands on river knowledge.

Because as a guide, I need to know that seasonally where these fish go and why.

And what are spots that I should be taking your fish, and what are spots that maybe at this, you know, time of day, we should push through and whatnot.

You know, I don't think electronics are necessary in a river system, you know.

Sure.

I mean, if people want to employ them, I'm.

What, you know, whatever.

I think they can be at the detriment.

To the detriment of a fishery.

I think a lot of that is yet to be seen.

You know, what's going to happen.

But, yeah, I definitely.

I don't think, you know, I don't think you need them, is what I will say along and the Short of it is, you know, muskie and smallmouth seasonally go to the same places every year.

And then you grew up on these rivers too.

I mean, it's all wedge and rock dependent, current dependent.

And so, you know, with a little bit of experience, you know, where they are or where they should be.

Yeah.

I think the challenge with particularly the big muskie is that, you know, they're not a lot of them and it takes a long time to grow them.

Right.

And you know, the thing to think about, you know, put aside wherever you want to come out on, like put your time in and really earn the fish versus go out and, you know, hit them with the, with the live scope and then go pound on them.

But you know, one way to think about it, I mean, folks do whatever you want to do, right.

But what I would say is, you know, if you think about it from the standpoint of fair chase and if everybody on the river live scopes of 54 inch Muskie and pounds the snot out of it, it's going to change that fish's behavior and it's going to fundamentally alter the fishery.

Absolutely.

And I think that there are certain ways with live scope that you can, I mean, like I said, they go to the same places every year, but if you can pinpoint radar, you know, three muskie sitting in an eddy and you're just pestering them, pestering them, pestering them until they eat.

I think it's to be determined what the detriment of that is going to be.

And here's what I will say to add to the safe handling is that when I talk to Josh and Blaine about this a lot because I mean, they have a lot more experience than I do guiding or fishing for them, you know, in general.

You know, so I talked to him kind of about the idea that, I mean, you think about it, even with safe handling, you know, you catch a four foot muskie, you know, so many times in a season, or few people catch it throughout the season, you know, there's a good likelihood that even with safe handling, that fish may not make it through the fourth fish hooking or, you know, or fight of that season.

And that, that's something that, you know, you're talking about the, the, you know, the morality of, of fishing, I guess there.

But you know, I, I think that, you know, you add, what I mean to say is that you add live scoping on top of that and you know, they're like, it's like you said, there's, there are less adult musky and smallmouth in a system than there are juveniles.

And right now both of these fisheries are in a really healthy, you know, really healthy spot with 28 to 38 inch muscular.

And there's always going to be less adults.

But I think that, you know, with increased pressure, we have seen maybe that there are even less adults now and then also they're a little more wary.

And it goes back to, you know, I was talking about.

Sometimes it would make.

Makes me sick listening to Josh and Blaine talk about, you know, eight in one day.

You know, figure 8, 6, 7, 8 Muskie in one day.

And, you know, you start to see them.

I'm sure you've seen this too.

Fishing with Blaine.

They're getting more and more wary of boats.

And so while they will eat in the figure 8, it happens, you know, every, you know, all the time, you know, but.

And they will go into the rotations at the very least.

They're getting more and more boat wary.

And that's a fact.

I don't care what anybody says.

And I think that's there's even more importance on our.

On hunting your fry away from the boat now and not being lazy and being on top of it.

And that's where I'm on you, you know, I'm on you all the way, you know, muskie fishing.

I'm standing the guy in the front of the boat.

I'm on your shoulder, you know, watching.

If you mess up in the figure eight and you hit the boat or, you know, you're making noise, you're shuffling your feet, I'm on you, you know, just like, look, man, you know, I, you know, I know I keep telling you, but it can be the difference maker between a fish.

And I can't tell you how many times I've seen that, you know, and, and I think that is a result of increased pressure where somebody hits the rod or hits the boat with the rod and that's in that.

It's not a natural noise, you know, they're in the figure eight and they're in that Cheshire cat mode where all they want to do is kill that thing and they're on the fifth rotation.

All of a sudden, you know, Joe hits the boat, you know, with the rod and it comes out of that, you know, trance and it shoots off.

I mean, there's only one thing that made it do that and it was that rod.

And so, you know, I think they're becoming more and more aware.

And not to say that that fish wouldn't have done that anyways, but you know, you, that's where, you know, you got to be sharp is with the increased pressure, you know, it's my job to be on you more.

Hey, you're moving that fly too fast.

Hey, you're not pausing enough.

Hey, you're, you know, you're popping that bug when you're not spaced to, you know, I want to see you succeed.

And so despite the pressure, you know, maybe I can't be as hands off as.

As I could have been, say, if I was a guide in Virginia 20 years ago.

So.

Well, and as it just helps me reiterate what I said earlier, which is listen to your guide.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And so, Austin, before I let you go this evening, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners?

Yeah, you know, obviously I'm appreciative for you having me on and, and we invite anybody, you know, all, all levels of skill to come fish with us and, and really see, you know, I'm, I'm very lucky to work on two really great fisheries for both smallmouth bass and muskie.

But an added benefit to those fisheries is that while the fishing is good, you know, the sights are incredible.

And yeah, we may have scared you a little bit about a hot July day or a really cold December day, but it's.

It's nothing that we can't fix, you know, with, with, you know, a jacket or, you know, fishing, fishing earlier or rescheduling, but it's hard to beat.

And I know you can speak to this too, the views that we have in western and southwest Virginia.

I wouldn't rather be anywhere else.

And then, you know, could.

Could work in Alaska still.

And, you know, I choose to be here during the summer and, and, you know, we would welcome anybody to come fish with us and see what fishing for muskie and small mouth bass and western Virginia is all about.

Yeah, it's funny you say that because I think the heat and the cold just makes the beer and the whiskey taste better.

Ooh, yeah, I was going to say coffee, but I like whiskey and bourbon better.

See, there you go.

And the bourbon is the Virginia thing.

And so, Austin, if folks want to learn more about Virginia trophy guides or book a day or follow you guys on the water, where should they go?

Yeah, so, I mean, you know, you can go to our website, you know, Virginia trophyguides.com.

you know, we are on Instagram and Facebook, the exact same name as well.

Or you can reach out to us and call us.

You know, emails are great, but I think sometimes, you know, with, you know, people.

People tend to have a lot of questions.

And, you know, Josh and I, I mean, you could probably tell from this, this chat here that I'm not shy.

Um, you know, you can call me at 11pm and chat with, you know, hey, when should I come fishing?

And that's.

That's something that we stress, right, Is when people call us, you know, you know, figure out what you want to fish for and what you want to achieve, and then we can help you hand pick days.

And.

And I think that makes for the best experience.

So give us a shout.

I mean, you know, call us, email us, you know, you can reach out to us on DMS from the social media.

And.

And yeah, we're.

You can reach us at any time.

We're not the book.

Well, there you go, Austin.

I really appreciate you taking some time out of your evening to chat with me.

Yeah, thank you, Marvin.

Hopefully be able to get you out and do some.

Some bass fishing, some muskie fishing and some bourbon drinking.

Yeah.

Or we can do summer and fish when it's hot and drink gin and tonics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Looking forward to seeing you this winter, too, so.

Absolutely.

Take care.

Yeah, take care, Mom.

Well, folks, we hope you enjoyed the interview as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

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Tight lines, everybody.