When the term diversity post George Floyd was used, DEI was a code word for black. And the last thing that I would say, because it's a pet peeve of mine, is that we now have begun to joke about this on a national stage by talking about that black job. Correct. It's like DEI. Oh, that's that black job. No, no, stop saying that.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were. Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt. We are live again at the University of New Haven, 88. 7 on the Richter dial. We want to thank the University of New Haven for partnering with the Black Executive Perspective Podcast to talk about this important topic. We hope everyone is having a good time this semester. Go Chargers! And also, we want to make sure that you continue To consume our partner's magazine CODE M magazine Whose mission is first saving the black family by first saving the black man. So definitely check them out at codemagazine. com So today is going to be a very interesting day on a black executive perspective podcast Typically we come on, we have guests, they share their stories, but today is going to be a little bit different today. We have Kevin Clayton. Who's the EVP and chief impact officer of the Cleveland Cavaliers and Robert Franklin, who's the co founder and executive educator at seven focus. Robert brings his insights and challenges. Some of the views Kevin had on. Current diversity, equity and inclusion as discussed in the earlier BEP episode, the truth about DEI challenges together, they'll dive into thoughtful discussion on the complexities and the involving landscape of DEI in today's conversation. Organizations. So let me tell you a little bit about both our esteemed guests here. Kevin Clayton is the executive vice president, chief impact officer at rock entertainment group and the Cleveland Cavaliers with previous executive roles across various organizations, including bond source. Mercy Health and the U. S. Tennis Association. He founded Jump Ball LLC and began his career at Procter Gamble. Kevin chairs the Greater Cleveland Urban League and black sports professionals and serves on multiple boards, including United Way of Greater Cleveland. Of native of Cleveland, he graduated from North Carolina Central University in Wilmington College, Ohio. He captained his basketball team and is a proud member of Kappa Alpha Phi fraternity. He has four beautiful daughters and three grandchildren. Kevin Clayton, welcome to a black executive perspective podcast. My brother,

Tony, I'm so happy to be here. Hopefully you're having a great day, buddy.

I'm having a beautiful day. It's awesome. Let me introduce our other esteemed guests. Robert Franklin, the second. He has been leading diversity, health, equity, and inclusion initiatives at Cleveland Hospital, Colorado, since 2018 and offers consultancy services nationwide, focusing on community engagement. His background includes roles such as such as leading the diversity catalyst team at Colorado State University, serving as a trainer for the city and county of Denver and acting as a health advisor. Equity officer for the Colorado Public Health Association. As a published author and podcast hosts, Robert co founded Seven Focus with Prismatic LLC, a company committed to enhancing organizational diversity impacts. This initiative draws on the belief that actions today are influenced by seven generations of leaders. Before aiming to foster learning and dialogue that lead to a meaningful diversity outcomes. Robert Franklin II, welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, my brother.

I appreciate you having me. It's an honor to be here.

Well, listen, it's an honor for us to have both of you here. You guys have very, very accomplished backgrounds. If there's anybody to talk about DEI, it's you guys. So, and, and we're looking forward to hearing this discussion from both of you guys. So, look. I'm chomping at the bit to hear from you. Are you guys ready to talk about it?

Absolutely. Yep. 100%.

Let's talk about it. So, let's back up a little bit for our audience who may not have, uh, heard Kevin's, uh, episode. The truth about DEI challenges that was published on July 9th. Kevin came on and talked about some of the, his background in terms of how, when he worked at Procter and Gamble back in the early nineties, how they were doing DEI initiatives, how they were making their business more profitable by reaching out and working with other different groups and DEI at that time point wasn't something that was under attack, but then he also talked about what happened. After George Floyd incident, how the DEI word and all the impact in terms of hiring and, and, and, and all the attacks on DEI kind of took off and went sideways after the George Floyd. So, I want to play a quick clip of that episode and then I love to hear from Kevin to expand on what he talked about then.

Doors are being opened that maybe weren't open before. Pledges of money that weren't there are now given to us. And the DEI position, and I'm going to tie all this back together, the DEI position I told you was the hottest in America, if you were black or a woman, that was the qualification to become a senior vice president or chief diversity officer. Tony, I don't know of one other position that is a real legit position in corporate America where your qualification is your skin color, or your gender, or your sexual identification. But because people didn't know, and I'm talking about significant, I'm talking about government, education, business, All in nonprofits, because they didn't know what this was about. They were like, look, let me go get a black person and make him my chief diversity officer.

So I still tickle. Uh, and obviously I heard it a million times, but I always laugh at that as I laughed in that clip. So talk a little bit about what you were basically articulating at that time, Freud, about what was going on when it came to DEI, uh, opportunities, career, the attack after George Floyd.

I probably erred on one thing when I made that statement, because I actually got into this work back in, call it the, um, you know, early 90s, because I was black, okay? I was the highest ranking, um, African American executive in the sales function with Procter Gamble at the time. And the whole introduction to diversity and to clarify one thing, there was no E and I, it was not DEI then, it was just diversity.

It was just diversity. Yeah.

And therefore I was chosen not only to lead an organization that was responsible for 250 million in sales and 30 people running our business in the Southeast. It was, well, Kevin, we need you to also run our DEI program or I'm sorry, our diversity work. Tony, I didn't have a clue as to what diversity meant. I came to P& G for one purpose. And that purpose was to be the best sales executive that they could develop me into. And when the whole conversation of diversity happened, I began to gravitate towards that because I studied and learned and understood what the power of differences and similarities are. And therefore, that's how I got into the work. So post George Floyd, it was just basically accentuated. Because so many organizations, as I said in the clip, it didn't matter what industry, so many organizations were saying, we have to go do something and that something is we either need to start a DEI team or program, or what we need to do is enhance the one that we have. But again, the only qualification, generally speaking, and I know this because I was also part of a number of people who came to steal me away from the calves. The general qualification was. Are you a person of color? Are you a person of a of a different dimension of diversity other than being a white male? So my point is that if the work is to be taken serious, then you would need serious qualifications. So, yes, there are certifications to do the work. I don't know of a I don't know the university and Brother Franklin can can talk to this where there's an undergraduate degree. In DEI, there are certifications and there's some post graduate kinds of studies you can do, but we don't hire anybody in our organization without having some expertise in the expert in the area in which we're hiring them for. So that was my point, right? It was really, it wasn't a commitment and there's data now that would show any given day you can pick up the paper. You can look online to see how many organizations are disbanding their DEI departments and those folks that rose to the top. Based on yesterday, they were a communications manager and now they're chief diversity officer, no longer have those positions.

So before I get Robert's, uh, uh, response, I just want to make sure I'm clear here. Cause you said you erred on one thing. What was the thing that you erred on?

Because I talked about post George Floyd, when I should have said, even at the beginning of this work, the credential of getting into the work was. Are you something other than a white male? And that was the, that was the necessary credential. Not do you have expertise in managing leading and leveraging DEI or diversity or whatever it might be. So that was a mistake I made. And that's why I went back to when I got this work, it was an add on to the fact that I was running a significant business and it was, ah, Kevin, you're the highest black in our organization. You can also leave the diversity work.

Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. Thanks for that, my friend, Robert, what's your thoughts on that?

Oh, so, so many. And I think you only have like an hour plan for our conversation today. So this is a part one of six or seven. Uh, and, and I appreciate the opportunity seriously to be able to have a conversation like this, because the black executive, uh, perspective, Is unique, not only in the podcast space, but in corporate America in general. Like look at us, right? I don't, I don't know that I've actually had this opportunity to have a conversation like this. So Kevin and Tony, uh, thank you for the opportunity. And it was that clip. Actually. I'm surprised you picked that clip, Tony. That was the clip for me that I was like, I started to take notes while listening to the episode, because right out the gate. Kev, the thing that struck me is those women, uh, women of color, those people who were chosen did have expertise. They, they did. I don't know all of them, right? They, they do, they did have expertise. They do have, uh, skills, knowledge, and abilities that by and far were ignored up until the moment when this, uh, our world had this, uh, social reckoning, if you, if you will.

So Robert, hold on one second, cause I just want to, cause I want you before you go, I just want to make sure. So, Kevin saying, because I want to be, and I want you to expound on what you said, Kevin saying that the people, including himself, back in 19, early 90s, when, when, um, when Proctor Campbell said, Hey, you, you are a black leader, right? Take over diversity. Okay. And so at the end of the day, he didn't, you know, he had a lot of skills. Okay. He was an executive at the organization, but when it came to diversity and building out something, right, that's going to provide and, you know, uh, uh, increase, you know, uh, different people's voices in the organization. That's going to blah, blah, blah. He's what he was saying is there was no skills specifically people going to school to learn those things. Now you're saying. That goes and use women specifically that there was skills. So I just want to be I would be when you say there was skills. What skills are you talking about? I just want to be clear because I don't want to miss that part.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being a black man, black woman, woman of color, being a person with a marginalized identity in the United States of America and alive at that same time is in itself a demonstration of knowledge, skills and abilities. Code switching is a skill is a skill set to be able to move up in the ranks in corporate America for people to say, Hey, Kev, uh, you do this thing really well, and we've got this other opportunity that our organization needs to prioritize for one reason or another. We think you might be able to do that there. You Kev, you said, uh, there aren't too many positions, a CEO positions where. because of your gender identity and your racial identity that you can get that kind of position. The president of the United States was a position solely segregated for white men for hundreds of years. Nevermind CEOs of fortune 500 companies, leaders of schools and medicine, blah, blah, blah. So. Yeah, gender and racial identity and probably sexual orientation has mattered for a long, long, and still does for a long, long time. So, Tony, the point that I was making about being a black dude, being the black dude in the space, there's tons of expertise that's there and skills and talents that they probably saw in you. And because you're black, they were able to name that because you were one of, I'm guessing, not that many. Now, I will also honor. That I haven't been in what we call the D. E. I. The D. The D. E. I. Inclusion spaces for as long as you have, Kevin. So I know that things look different. Sort of, because we have a word for diversity and there's, it's a work place. Now it is a, there's this equity that we have metrics and stuff like that, but. In the 90s, there were only so many of us that were even allowed to be in and around the C suite without having to clean up the trash cans or wipe off the boards. And so. In that moment to be able to have somebody to have a conversation as a different perspective than the people who was in the spaces of the whole time around the C suite table, the boardroom table. That is what we call diversity. Who else was going to do it. There was only one of y'all there. I wasn't there but you know there was only so many of y'all there. And so, yeah, your blackness probably did matter. And just like all those people that you were naming, the thing that I had to throw the flag on was that those people had a lot of talent. And the fact that those organizations are disbanding and they're going away, it's more than just did they not have skills and abilities to lead the organization. There's an entire wave of people who don't want to talk about race, gender, sexual orientation, and those dimensions of difference that you may name. Thank you. Absent of the talent of those folks. So that's why I had to throw the flag, and that's why I was really hoping that we could have this conversation.

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Got it, got it, got it. So, respond to that, Kevin.

So, Robert, in preparation, I knew there would only be two things that you could disagree on. One of which might have been definitional as to even how we define this work. And I'm going to go back on that. And then the second thing was going to be around the whole implementation of what this work was about. There's only two things. So, um, yeah, a couple of things. Please don't mistake the lived experience of any individual as a, his skillset. My lived experience as a black man did not get, not put me in a position to be able to sit down and do an organizational assessment of what the conditions were to do a gap analysis by compensation. It didn't provide me an opportunity to understand what are the nuances in creating an environment that is inclusive. What are the nuances of being able to implement a diversity scorecard that connects to salary that are based on on metrics that tied back into performance? It didn't give me the skill set to be able to analyze a consumer marketing base to see where the gaps are. And then how do I go out to communities to build the to fill the gap? Between where we were actually penetrating and where we weren't. Also, it did not give me the opportunity. It did. I didn't have the skillset to be able to manage an organization where I had to make white males. feel included, just like I did have to make black folks feel included, just like I had to make women and people and others feel included. My lived experience only said that that gave me the passion to be able to understand certain things through the lens of Kevin Clayton's lived experience. That's not a skill set. So to say that these brothers and sisters had the skills, They couldn't have had the skills. One, because the industry is too new. That's saying that because I'm a consumer, I can go into marketing. Nope, not at all. Now your comment around the, the, and I said, I know you're saying this tongue in cheek, maybe not, but your comment around the, the president of the United States, that job was based off of race. I categorically and absolutely disagree with that comment. Just because white males have always been the ones that sat in that seat. There was never any type of questionnaire around. Well, if you're a white male, you can do this job. It had nothing to do with that. Now I don't think skillset and intelligence and any of that have anything to do with being a president as a different conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Different conversation. It wasn't, that wasn't the requirement. And I'm telling you. Flat out because I was one and because I talked to brothers and sisters all across the globe doing this work They were only selected because of their, their, their dimension of diversity. It wasn't, Hey, can you sit down and explain to me? And let me just give you an example. I had an opening for a number two person. I was hiring for a senior director. I had people literally, as you can imagine, one because of sports, but because of the work I had over five to 600 people respond day one. And when I looked through the resumes, I had everything from college professors to coaches to people that had some experience in doing the work. I narrowed the field down by asking them to fill out one question. Give me an example of when you have ever implemented a DEI plan or strategy in an organization. I narrowed that field from 500 to about 50 really quickly. And those 50 did not have the experience of ever implementing, creating and implementing a full fledged plan. I'm not talking about an HR plan. I'm not talking about a hiring plan. I'm talking about a full organizational plan that's integrated into an organization that affects every single person in that organization. That is a skill that can only be gotten by having experiences or going through certifications or what have you. So that's my push back to that. And I get the, yes, my life experience brings me a certain set, but this is a specific piece that, I mean, you, you know, this is the work you do. It is. And hold

on one second. Well, hold on one thing, Robert. I just want to, I want to ask Kevin something, then I'll let you go. So, so Kevin, I hear that, right. I definitely hear that point. Right. Especially. And I love the way you said, Hey, out of 500 applicants, I was able to wheel down to 50 by asking him, had they ever put a plan together to Totally get it. That makes total sense. And implemented it. And implemented it. Right. Let me ask you this though. How many companies had actually put a plan together and implemented it? Right. After the, just to be fair, right. Just to be fair. Cause it goes to your point earlier. They just, Hey, you black or you a woman, this is the qualification. So if they didn't have a plan, Okay. To be fair to company, because we know a lot of them, a lot of these people who took these roles, they had no tools. They had no KPIs for success. They had nothing because the company didn't know how to put it together. Would you agree with that?

So Tony, what I would agree with is That the companies were looking for help and support. And I'm talking post George Floyd. I'm talking post George Floyd as well. They were looking for help and their motivation though, for the most part, for the most part, their motivation was not, I want to implement a strategic D and I plan that's going to be sustainable over time. And Robert, we're going to build out your department to X, Y, Z. It was white guilt. From the standpoint of they saw a black man being killed for the first time by law enforcement officers and you and I, all three of us know that that happens on the daily. So, therefore, they were like, we have to do something. We heard this thing called D. I was hot. Let's go out and find these folks and it was to appease. The black community, it was not to actually develop a str, a strategy that was going to be organizationally operationalized, so that now it's just how we go about doing things. It was in response.

So that's my point though. They didn't even have a plan. It was more, it was guilt. It was a response, right? So they, so, so, okay. We're on the same page, Robert.

Yeah. So you were absolutely right, Kev, that there was only two things. I think I only had two notes that I wanted to arm wrestle about today. And so that was definitely one of them. And so I want to make sure to keep it 100. We're on the black executive perspective podcast. Uh, the idea that Corporate America decided, and we know who's in charge of Corporate America, Corporate America decided we need to do something different. So from Tide and Walmart, the NBA, the NFL, everybody was like, You know what? We need to see more black and brown and diverse bodies. They did the whole thing. And so they had to create that plan. Who in the world is going to have the voice of the black market, the black market? Then somebody who identifies as black because prior to not just prior to George Floyd being murdered, but prior to the 1990s, I would say about a 89 88. There wasn't even that much of a black market to be thought of in the first place Um outside of the shucking and jiving and the and uh, newport's, uh, cool Cigarettes where black men especially were considered in the black family wasn't even a thing Um prior to the cosby's generation if you will

or colt 45.

Thank you

billy d williams,

right so when you and you I think we are both going to be diametrically opposed in this one idea that lived experience is expertise. Now, being a black dude by itself, does that help you be able to do a gap analysis in that way for that company or to lead a, what is now known as a DEI, uh, metric? Probably not. Do you know things because of your black maleness in this country that nobody else knows? Cause you are Kevin Clayton. Absolutely. And that's why I would hire you. To run this thing that has never been done before, because there's something that I recognize in you that you have that I don't have. And I'll tell you this for just me, those of those folks who know the work that I have done. I often hire with that in mind. What is it that you add to the work that I that we're doing as a department or as an organization that I don't have, and that's a perspective, a lived experience that I value that doesn't show up. In your alma mater that doesn't show up on your resume. And in fact, when you ask that question, Kevin, if I, if it was my first DEI, uh, Uh, appointments, you know, and you're asking me, okay, Robert have, what have you done in an organization? I'm going to tell you about, uh, how I did that in a club or in, um, the boy scouts or in JROTC, because one, I'm going to arm wrestle you in your own interview about you said organization. And those are all organizations, even though I wasn't the one that was in charge of it. And then two, I'm going to challenge you like, well, you're hiring for this position. What have you done in this space? But what all that to say, I do value lived experience and I think that those people and I was more concerned about those folks that you were talking about that got the jobs just right out the gate in 2020 and 2021 as if they didn't have something to offer beyond those things that they were chosen for point taken, they were chosen because of what they look like on the, on the company photo, right? Or in the company check boxes. And they brought something that that organization didn't have to Tony's point for an organization that wasn't really sure what they were going to be doing. And the reason why we don't see so many of those programs now and those are those people in those spaces now this because we have a few organizations left that actually meant it when they said black lives matter that actually meant it when they said we stand with these marginalized identities. And that's, that's a whole other conversation. Then, uh, can we stand on that, that lived experience? And the last thing I'll say before I go back on mute. The, the president of the United States of America. There were rules and laws on the books that didn't, that prevented, that prohibited certain people from participating, even in the process, based on their racial identity, and well, even in their gender identity, if we think about the women's suffrage movement. So, while today, that doesn't exist, and there isn't, I don't, I've never applied to be President of the United States, but I don't know if they checked the box or not, while that, while that may or may not exist, it's very clear. That as a black man in the United States in the 1990s, in the, in the 1980s, I would argue in 2000, trying to, we can ask Jesse Jackson, uh, Colin Powell, that race matters and mattered in even that position, even if we weren't screaming in out loud the same way we were in 1860. So, you're right that those are the two things. There's two things that we are, we're, we're on different places on, but I, I will get with you on, on this thing though. I, I will say. You in the work that you've done over time and certainly in over at the Cavs, you have put into place work and space where people can start to see themselves. Uh, and, and that's not only diversity, but that's inclusion. And I think you're also working toward equity. And so I don't want this to be like two black dudes arguing over something that is not going to get us to progress because what I do think is that you open space over there at the Cavs for people to say, you know what? On this language access thing, I know a little bit about a little bit. And so I'm going to go up to Kevin and say, like, look, I know what's going on here because of my community was happening with us. And that I hope you're going to go, you know, you have that lived experience. And I want to grow you because I see that that potential in you, which wouldn't have happened if you hadn't been tapped in the 1990s at Procter and Gamble.

So, Kevin, I'm gonna let you respond and I want to move on to something else, but go ahead, my friend. Yeah.

So, so, so Robert, I actually, we're not as far off as perhaps you rolled into this conversation thinking we were, I mean, cause you talked about throwing a flag, you talking about objecting, I mean, there were a couple of words you, if there was a, if it would have been live, I'd have called into the show, I'm telling you. Yep. So, so here's what I would offer you. How do you define diversity? One word difference. Diversity. Okay. Yep. And brother, I'm not trying to trump you and I'm not using that word. I would just, I'm just saying it from a bit with standpoint. Okay. I would add differences and similarities. Okay.

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And that is one of the first things that folks that whenever I talk about it, because our definition is a collective mixture of our fans, our team members, our sponsors, characterized by both differences and similarities. I go through this whole exercise and it's a training exercise. Let me give you an example. Um, and I've had a consulting company under jump ball. One of my clients was. I Omega and you brothers may remember back in the day where we had the kind of the tower computers and we had this little drive on the side and you put this drive in the side and that was a memory drive floppy. Yeah, yeah, well, no, these are the cartridges now. It wasn't this. These are the cartridges and what it was. They were made by I Omega and they were located in Ogden. So they brought me on, they flew me out from Atlanta to Salt Lake City, go up an hour or so to Ogden and I walk in the building. I'm in the boardroom and literally there's 12 seats around the boardroom and they're there. I'm coming in to give an executive briefing on what diversity was. So I looked around the room and I asked a question. I said, do we have diversity in this room? They looked at me and the CEO kind of whispered and said, well, Kev, if we had diversity in the room, you wouldn't be here. Ha ha ha. Okay. So I'm like, okay, well, let me test your assumption. And again, Robert, I'm going back to our definitions of you saying differences, me saying differences and similarities. So with that, I asked him, I said, well, let me check what you just said. Let me just check in with you all. How many of you would consider yourself white males? They all raise their hand. How many of you are Mormons? They all raise their hand. How many of you are married? Half of them raise their hand. How many of you have kids? Another percentage raised their hands. How many of you attended a four year school? A certain percentage. I went through six or seven different questions. And what they realized, and honestly, they, they were, the questions I asked, some of them were like, I never knew that about you, Johnny. I never knew that about you. And here's the point. And I asked him, I said, now let me go back and ask the question. Do you have diversity in the room? They were like, yeah, we do have diversity. Here's my point. If you, the three of us were to go to any kind of conference and we didn't, and there were some people we thought we knew, but most people we didn't know, you know, that feeling when you walk in that conference room and you're looking around. Aren't we looking around for somebody that we know that we know when we go sit out? That's right. And the reason why is that whole feeling of being alone and different is like it's an awkward feeling. No matter how, no matter how flamboyant any of us might be and personable, we go to look for that person that we, and it doesn't have to be a black person. It can just be somebody that we know so we can feel a sense of comfort. And that gives us some sense of safety around, Oh, there's 2000 people in here. But I, but I know Robert. So here's the point. When we think about similarities and different differences and similarities, it's those similarities that connect us that even allow us to have a conversation, and that is why diversity to us is both, and it's not just differences. Differences allow me to learn, but the similarities and this exercise I go through, I ask a series of questions to the most random person in the room, and I connect with them on different things. Because what it does, it gives us that feeling that I said that we have when we walk into that ballroom of okay, well, I know something about you. So with that, it's not about differences. It's both differences and similarities. So how I connect that and the reason I asked you the question is that a lot of this work that we now do, diversity is a code word for black. Yeah, correct. And, and that is not what it, that's, I mean, it can't be. I have white males that walk up and down these halls and they would, you'd ask him right now, are you part of our diversity plan? They would say, of course we are. Yes, we are now to your point in Tony, I'm going to move off of this. Is the white community, are they the ones that are in the biggest need right now? No. So what we do is we identify across multiple dimensions of diversity. Whenever something comes up, let it be women's reproductive rights. Let it be the attack on the black community. Let it be the attack on the Jewish community, the Palestinian community, whatever it is. We make statements and connect with them. And it's not just making statements. We go to those communities and say, how can we help you? Right? Because it's all of us collectively in a community. It's not just one or the other. So when the term diversity post George Floyd was used, D. E. I was a code word for black. And the last thing that I would say, because it's a pet peeve of mine, is that we now have begun to joke about this on a national stage. By talking about that black job, it's like D D E I. Oh, that's that black job. No, it didn't. No. Stop saying that. All we're going to do is push people further away from what needs to happen. And that is to integrate all of us into a space that allow us to be productive in a community at work on a college campus or what have you. Final thing. The reason why I said that we're not that far away. It's really nuanced. Yes, my lived experiences have helped me to be able to do the work that I that I do, but my lived experience weren't the technical pieces and the expertise that allowed me to be successful. And that was it. Yes. I just said we need to elevate and we need to provide black folks, the same level of training that we did when we brought in a business analytics team. They didn't know what the hell they were doing. We trained them. We gave them experiences. We didn't just say they were expendable. And when the budget got tight, cut them off.

Buddy, before I go to my next spot, you, you got anything you want to say to that, Robert?

Oh, there's so many, so many things. So you're absolutely right. We are a lot closer and. I just value your perspective. I value where you're where you're at with the passion for it. And even though that and I like the cows definition, the diversity is differences and similarities. I like I like that. I'm not going to I'm not even going to take it. What you named is so crucial that. The weaponization and you said that in the pod with Tony before the weaponization of DEI has pushed us all again right back to, it's just black and not black and that code word that's being used, which is why it's being thrust through all the media, not just our political media. And so. The word diversity, the word equity, the word, the D E I acronym, I've been pushing for us to get a, get rid of it. Cause what you said was that we need to get to a place where we all have access to do the things, to thrive and stay alive. And so I don't need an acronym for us to be able to get to that piece. And then all of us need that, that part. Go ahead, Tony.

No, no, no, that's good stuff. I'm going to come back to you, my brother. I want to move to where we, um, Talk solutions here. I love to hear from your standpoint, Robert and, and, and this, what, what Kevin just talked about kind of kicks this segment off. Okay. Is that, and you just spoke to it is weaponized. It means it's, it's, it's, it's dog whistled now. Uh, um, They're, they're, they're, they're cutting back on a lot of these, uh, divisions or departments and companies. You know, I read Harley Davidson, which I didn't believe. I couldn't believe they had a DEI thing, but it doesn't matter. A lot of companies, Microsoft, a lot of companies are cutting their DEI workforce. They're just cutting back from the pressure because of the DEI dog whistle and stuff. So I want to hear from you, buddy, based on all that. What do you think from a solution standpoint? You've been in the space. Okay. For a long period of time, talk, talk to us. I want to hear from Kevin too, but talk to us. What do you think needs to happen for us to take it to the next level, to overcome the things that are happening right now that, you know, four years ago was a, a tidal wave. To what Kevin was talking about in our episode, uh, we're going to do this. And yeah, it could have been based on guilt and the whole nine yards, but now there's a major retraction. And then more importantly, we're not seeing, uh, the results of what this was supposed to do from the get go. Right. So I love to hear your thoughts on that.

Okay. So. Vote better, educate more is the answer to your, your question. I know I'll need to elaborate on that. But, but first though. Some of us aren't seeing what was supposed to come of this DEI movement. If you, I'm a, I'm a kid who was raised by a wonderful set of black women and the television. And so the, I watched a lot of TV just cause that's what I do. So I'm watching commercials and whatnot. And I have seen a huge shift in Tide, Walmart, McDonald's, even I was watching, uh, uh, Home Depot and say what you will about Home Depot. And I see people with, uh, uh, assistive technologies. I see families that are multi, uh, multi families like a different family dynamics and, uh, different cues in their, in their, uh, background and two dads and two moms. And you know, the, the, all of that stuff. And I'm like, when I was a kid, when I was coming up trying to figure out, do I want this toy or that toy watching TV? I didn't see me. I didn't see Never mind the kind of families that I went to school with being in the urban center or the kind of families that my family's in the southern part of the United States had. I didn't see representation like that. And so there is, there are different pieces of that work, if you will, from 2024 and even a little bit before that. And the work that Kev was talking about doing, that we are seeing the benefits of that, which allow me working in a hospital to say to your doctor or your kid's doctor, Hey, Those differences, those dimensions of difference matter when it comes to care. You can be the great doctor, greatest doctor in the world. And if you miss the fact that black women aren't believed about their pain, then if you miss that part, that race is a part of that, you're likely not to get great care, even though you know all of the science. So, we are seeing that people are open to that and expecting us to talk about things like health equity, expecting us to talk to things about bias and how we treat each other because there has been so much work and so much effort now across the country here in the United States. That wave, that rhetoric, that dog whistle as you name is loud and it is, it is popular. And so there are some places where you can't educate yourself, uh, just by yourself, just going in and I'm a, I'm a product of public education. That's it's hard now to just go get your history and understand what's going on in the world. So we got to do better by our kids and by our folks that are trying to be educated. And then when we get better educated, we can learn better about how we vote. And matters to how what we get for our education and what our laws looking like and what opportunities like this conversation could go away if we're not careful with how we're voting. So, those are the two two solutions that are really, really big and really, really nuanced. But I do think that there's some hope on the horizon though Tony, Tony it's not all bad. Even though we're seeing that wave come across the nation.

Right, right, right. Can I, I just want to add, I just want to. Make a couple of comments based on what you said. And Kevin, I want to hear your point of view and you're right. You know, I remember years ago, um, and this was early two thousands. I went to a conference and I don't remember the publisher of what it was a woman's, it was, it was a woman's conference. It was called, um, uh, Uh, advertising women of New York. Okay. I don't know if you guys ever participated, um, huge conference and they had a few, they were, um, um, um, celebrating some women in the space and they had, uh, uh, all women from different industries, but there was a woman, she was a publisher of, I don't, and I don't want to say it could have been good housekeeping. I can't remember exactly what the magazine was. But somebody, and it was the Q and A time, and they asked a question, somebody asked a question about, uh, when they didn't see representation in the magazine. Okay? And there was probably a thousand people there. And this lady, and I sat there, and this lady, she said, well, we would never put a black woman on the cover of our magazine. Nobody said nothing. Nobody said what I did. I was like, she, she said that and nobody blinked. This was 2003 for something like that. Right. So, so I never forgot that. I couldn't believe she said it. Okay. And the reason I bring that up, because to your point now, where you have commercials now that you have, you know, you see, you know, different, uh, races of people, husband, wife, the whole nine yards. I, my, my, my point is. I don't see that part of being success. Okay, I, I just don't see that part of joy. You know, we were on this D I wave and now four years later Well, there's a commercial sherman commercial Where I see a black father and a white mother and we're making progress I don't look at that as progress to be honest I think it goes back to what kevin was saying about the guilt thing and nobody knew what to do So they said well, you know what? Let's let's do this And And, and, and yes, it's great that our young people can see other people, see themselves in these spots, but I don't, if that's what we get out of this, then we, we, we've been, what's that? What's that old saying? Uh, uh, hoodwinked all right. Bamboozled. Right. So that's just my thought, Kevin.

Wait, wait, wait. But okay. So just, just, just those commercials. If we're just sticking with the advertising just for now. Those commercials represent jobs and opportunities that weren't available to certain people a lot for not that long ago and and relate to their career paths, their opportunities, their families opportunities. And so I hear what you're saying that that's not enough. I'm not, I don't want to land on that and. It's more than we've had, and there's a pathway to getting more because we see that going on. It hasn't gone away just because it's. Different parts of our country aren't talking about it. It hasn't gone away. And that has been a positive thing that I wanted to make.

Thanks, buddy. Kev.

Yep. So Tony, can I take three minutes? Yeah,

I got you, buddy.

All right. Um, I appreciate what both of you just said. And Robert, your solutions, you're absolutely right. And this thing is so nuanced, and it's so complicated, because there's not a silver bullet that's going to kind of be the one shot that wow, look at us now. So Tony, I want to go, I want to go back to what you just said. And I will tell both of you that I was enlightened by this work by a white male. It was back in my days of PNG, John Pepper, our CEO, who was heralded as one of the best CEOs in corporate America, called together this corporate meeting for to announce some things in which we are going to do to defend our business. There were a number of, uh, companies from Asia that were moving in to the U S buying up companies. And you all may recall back to automotive industry. There were Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese, all that were killing automobile industry. All right, Chiquita banana, a consumer products company, a Taiwanese company bought Chiquita banana headquarters right across the street from PNG. If you all know anything about PNG, it's like, no, you're not going to do that. It's like, no, you just not go walk in our backyard and build your, your office. So we have this meeting. I went to this meeting with this, this white counterpart of mine, and I was young in my career. I was in my first level of being promoted. I was maybe 24, 25 and out of the meeting, Mike is his name. We're sitting there and John says something about total quality management. And some of you all may remember that he started talking about category management, and then he introduced this term called diversity. And he talked about diversity from the standpoint that if we looked at our competitors that were coming over from Asia and then back then they were, they were all kind of one dimensional. You didn't see any women in their boardrooms. You just saw men representing those cultures, whether it be Chinese, Japanese, or whatever it might have been. And he was like, we will leverage the uniqueness of the America's diversity. And again, there was no E and I diversity to combat these companies. I translated that into like, wow, there's going to be more people that look like me. We're going to go into other markets. They're going to be more of us that are in our commercials because we own Charmin and all those things. So I walked out the room. I mean, I walked out this ballroom and Mike and I were walking back and I'm lit on fire. And I'm like, Mike, can you believe what John just said? Mike said, look, Kev, I'm not excited at all. And gentlemen, my response was, I've been working with this dude for the last two years. He's a racist, he's discriminatory, and all those biases that I have. But instead of letting those biases milk in, I did the one thing that I teach in my training on biases, I asked the question around, why aren't you excited? So instead of my assumption, he said, well, Kevin, let me just say this, if this is diversity for the sake of diversity, is this is just putting black folks on a commercial, bruh, I just don't, I mean, I got lots of other things I can do. However, if you can show me how this thing called diversity is going to help sell more Charmin, more Tide, more White Cloud, more Pampers, more Loves, more Folgers, I am all for it. Robert, the light bulb went off for me, that my passion for it, I didn't give a damn about coming out that meeting. I was just like, I know what this means to me and it was personal for me. To Mike, who was just, who was 80% of our organization, it was how can we help this to, to, to help him from a bottom line standpoint. Correct. Correct. So for me it was every time that I built a DEI plan or strategy or any conversation I ever had, and that's why I told you about when I went to Ogden, Utah and I didn't finish telling you the rest of that. It wasn't saying that, look, you have diversity because you have, you know, 12 of you on the room and you actually are similar and different. We have to start where you are and where you are is the fact that you have what you have. But then secondly, what is the reason why? And if it's a business, what is the business case? And I'm not talking about, Oh, we're going to sell more Sharma. I'm talking about, no, if we increase our market share by one from 22 percent to 23%, it's going to yield X amount of millions of dollars. And therefore we all are going to bet. So I have mapped out and I have a, I got a white paper that's been out there a number of years. Talked about the business rationale, the business case, and the business imperative. Because that is the language that the top of the house speaks to. And then it's like, okay, once you understand the doing business with me as a black person or going to HBCUs, which we just found out post George Floyd, they were just discovered then. Then therefore, how do we connect with how, where do we fit in that equation? And that's all day long. We can build that out. I can build it out for you at a hospital system. I can build it out for you at a, at a university, at a nonprofit. But that's when that would Mike, my counterpart said, nah, if I'm just going to look around and see more y'all, I ain't got it. I'm not for it, but if you can tell me how having more y'all around the table is going to help me, I'm there for it. And so go ahead, buddy. No, the final point. So therefore what are the solutions? And I am not one to identify a problem without a solution at the Urban League. I have an opportunity as the chair and my CEO, Marsha Mockaby, she and I have built out what's called the Equity Institute and the Equity Institute does two things. One, it does exactly what I said. The problem was we are taking chief diversity officers or directors of diversity or those folks who got thrown in these positions and taking them through a skill building session. Oh, it's not, not a session. It's a whole course. We have also convened all chief diversity officers in Northeast Ohio, and we meet on a regular basis to come together to talk about how we can support each other. Because we know a lot of folks just got thrown in this job the 2nd part, which I'll just take a shameless plug. I am the process of writing a book. That I get to speak about in three weeks and will be available right after the election called the rise, the fall, and the resurrection of DEI. Those words are by choice. And I don't know if either one of you are spiritual men, but if you, if you are, you understand what that language means.

Oh yeah. That was well taken. Yeah, we get it. We get it. We

get it. Look, go ahead. You got anything else you want to say? They, they, the weaponizing of it right now. And Robert, it breaks my heart, brother. When I hear you say, you know what? We just, we want to change the name. And I understand it or that when people are throwing rocks and stones and bricks and everything at you, my point about the resurrection is really redefining what the work is so that we can get back to what it was meant to be. And the resurrection, the correlation from a biblical standpoint, you know, after three days, it was a whole different kind of conversation folks was having.

That's that's the bottom line, though, buddy. My point is,

after we kind of go through what we're about to go through from a political standpoint, either way, we are going to have to do work. If one side of the, of the, of this country wins this political battle, we will have to camouflage, redefine and, but the work is still going to be done. The work has been been out there for hundreds of, well, at least the last 50 years. Yeah. Okay. 65, 65, 66, 65, 66. Right. However, if another side wins, it's going to be a whole rebirth. Of what is the resurrection of the work? And I'm banking on this side over here. So that's what I'm doing to Tony. And that's, that's solution for me is we need to continue to educate ourselves. We need to share with others and we also need to make sure that we are clear as to what we're talking about. This is not just about black folks.

Right, right, right. Well, look, buddy, I mean, number one, uh, when your book comes out, we're going to have you come back on because I definitely, you know, you threw the teaser out there, which I love. Okay. And I love the title. Um, so definitely going to have you come on back on about that. And I love the equity Institute. Okay. Which is, you know, it's, it's nuts and bolts, right? You're putting stuff together that basically has KPIs. There's going to be, you know, it's not pie in the sky type stuff, right? Getting people together. Educating one another because your point earlier about people being put in these positions and no having what? Having no way in terms of what success looks like right they may be very well skilled They may be very talented right, but at the end of the day if they don't know how to put this together They're not going to be successful which Unfortunately is not going to make all of us successful So we need for them to be successful in these roles So we can definitely all become successful from a diversity, equity, inclusion standpoint. Final thoughts, Robert Franklin.

Thank you. That gratitude, uh, Kev, thank you for the work that you are doing. Thank you for the work that you're gonna do. Uh, I guess I say thank you to Procter and Gamble for giving us you, uh, all that experience because You what you're doing and what you just described is so much of the work that's happened on this side of the country as well that we're a part of. And so I just would say thank you to you for that. And then Tony, thank you for making this space right that I found you because I wanted to look for some inspiration in the podcast game. And so it's because of you that I even do a little bit of the stuff that I'm doing on my podcast. So I just that's where I'm going to end with this is gratitude for my final thought.

Awesome. Kevin.

So Tony, thank you for the platform, brother. I mean, you, you found me through CODE M and you know, here we are on part two and, and, and, and Robert, I can't tell you how grateful I am to you, brother one, you heard something you wanted to, to dive deeper into it. And I'm 100 percent receiving of it and told you we sell these, I care, which is I'm like, Oh, absolutely, because I've learned something from you and hopefully there might have been one or two things that you got you gathered from me. But if we as black men, and I say this very specifically, we have black men. can't learn or don't know how to have a conversation with each other without yelling and screaming and cussing and fighting, then I mean, what, what, what, what do we really have? And so I thank you for the courage that you had to say, reach out and say, Hey, let's, let's have some dialogue about this. And if there's anything I can do, you got my number, please reach out as a, I mean, I, I was in healthcare, I was in bonds, the court mercy health. More than happy brother to work with you. And I'm not talking about charging enough. I'm just saying, I want to help you on the, on the strength of, of, of just another brother needing, needing another brother.

I appreciate that. And yes, I will be reaching out next time. I'm up that way, but reach back into the healthcare space. There's some children's hospitals out there in Ohio that needs some help from a DEI perspective right now. So if you can tap into them, that'd be great. Okay.

And I want to thank both of you guys for coming on, having this conversation. I really appreciate it. We want to do more of this because it's important. And Robert, you have a podcast, you and I've chatted. So we're going to be doing some stuff together as well. So. One of the things that came out of this conversation is definitely hearing you guys perspective, but more importantly to what Kevin just got finished saying, is that it's about us getting together, working together, right? Listening to one another and growing from one another. So I want to thank Kevin Clayton and Robert Franklin II for coming on a Black Executive Perspective podcast. I want you guys to stay right there because you're going to help us with our call to action. So I think it's now time for Tony's

Tidbit.

And the Tidbit today Is based on what we heard from Kevin and Robert, and I quote, listening to different perspectives isn't just about agreement. It's about learning. Evolving and finding better ways forward together. And you heard that on this episode of a black executive perspective podcast. So please, we want to remind everybody to make sure that you follow our segment by Dr. Nsenga Burton on a black executive perspective podcast need to know, which comes out every Thursday, Dr. Burton dives in timely and crucial topics that shape our community and world. You definitely don't want to miss her because she brings up. Things that you need to know. You need to stay informed of on a weekly basis. Every Thursday, check out Need to Know. And more importantly, I hope you enjoyed today's episode DEI Under Fire. Robert Franklin challenges Kevin Clayton's views. And so I don't know if it was really, I think it was more of a love fest to be honest.

I like the title though. That's a good title. All right.

So, you know, but it all worked out. Okay. So now it's time for our call to action. Les and Black Executive Perspective. Our goal, our mission is obviously bringing change. People on the talk about these topics be authentic from a storytelling standpoint. But more importantly, we wanted to, we wanted to decrease all forms of discrimination. So our call to action is called less L E S S. And this is something that we want everyone to incorporate because this is something that's in your control. So L. The L stands for learn. So one of the things we want you to do is educate yourselves on cultural and racial nuances. Things that you don't know, the more that you can learn, the more you will be enlightened.

E, empathize, empathize to understand diverse perspectives. Ask the question about what is your why? Try to be more curious and figure out what's going on in that other person's mind because you don't know until you ask.

Share. Share your insights to enlighten others. To whom much is given, much is expected. This is the Black Executive Forum. We have a responsibility to give back to everyone, and particularly those behind us.

Absolutely, and then the final S stands for stopped. You want to stop discrimination as it comes in your path. So if grandma says something at the Thanksgiving table that's inappropriate, you say, grandma, we don't believe in that. We don't say that. And you stop it right then. Because if everyone can incorporate less L E S S, we'll build a more understanding and fair world. And more importantly, we'll all see the change that we want to see. Because less will become more. Don't forget. You can follow a black executive perspective wherever you get your podcast. And more importantly, you can follow us on all our socials, Tick Tocks, X, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram at a black exec. I want to thank our fabulous guests, Kevin Clayton, EVP of the Cleveland Cavaliers, Robert Franklin. Founder of seven focus for coming on a black executive perspective for the woman behind the glass. Noelle Miller who pulls the levers to make this happen. Guess what? We talked about it. We love you. And guess what? We're out

a black executive perspective.