I'm really happy to have you here, Sara Louise, and Bunt there.

And I'm really happy to be able to talk about your new book and really bring to life what it's like to live as someone late diagnosed neurodivergent and how we can build on this so we can have better relationships, communication, sex lives, all of that after probably many decades of not quite understanding ourselves and not being able to communicate our needs properly.

So, first of all, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

And yeah, your book is the ND Lovers Club.

How Neurodivergent Women Lust like and Love.

And this sounds like a book so many of us need.

I was wondering, maybe one of you can start with what drove you to write this book, especially together.

What drove us to write it?

Years of pain, years of acquiring expertise and helping others.

A real combination of the personal and the.

And the professional.

I would say it was really cathartic.

And the fact that we found each other.

We found each other by complete mistake online.

Buntler Googled me and wanted to work with me on my business and me work with her business.

And we ended up going, actually, no, I don't think this is what we were meant to be doing.

Oh, but, you know, we could write a book.

And I've always wanted to write about this.

And so that's how it happened.

We.

We met each other, we wanted to maximize the other amazing person that we'd met.

And then we didn't really know what to do with that energy.

And then it culminated in a book about sex.

I love that.

So tell me a little bit.

So you've married, you know, excuse the pun, your different kind of expertise, your specialism.

So tell me a little bit, Sara, about yours.

And then, Buntla, tell me a little bit about yours and how you've brought that together to create this book.

Well, I always wanted to be a therapist, and I finally trained in my late 20s, and I'm now nearly 47.

So I wanted to be a therapist in order to support people with really complex emotional difficulties.

And through that I realized, because obviously you have to have a lot of therapy yourself, I realized that most therapists don't really deal with relationships or sex in any meaningful way.

In fact, I find it interesting because lots of my clients will say, I know I talk to you about all this other stuff, but can I talk about sex?

And they're always really kind of guarded.

And my own journey just meant that, you know, I just naturally started to be more confident talking to people.

People about it.

And that's how I ended up working in it as well as experiencing things myself.

Okay, and Buntla, what's your background?

So my background is in coaching rather than therapy, and I did a number of different types of coaching, executive leadership, health, and adhd, before discovering that I actually don't like coaching very much.

So awkwardly, I don't do very much of it anymore.

However, I've been a writer for a long time, and I thought what I could bring to the project is Sara has a really great view of multiple people.

She's seen it over and over again, and I have a very kind of deep view on the things that I want to talk about in my lived experience and my sexual awakening in my 30s and all of those things.

So it's a really good balance between the two of us because I also share much more personal information than Sara might necessarily.

Okay, so.

And you're both or dhd, so you both relate to, obviously, the traits of both autism and adhd.

And I'm sure it probably shows it very uniquely for both of you in different ways, like it does for all of us.

And we do know now that the crossover is much more common than we thought.

And if we are diagnosed with one or the other, the blend is more likely to be there than not there.

I think as women, especially as we're getting towards our midlife and going through that, the stresses are there.

They're getting bigger, they're getting harder to handle.

We're, like you said, we're getting this awakening of as well.

We.

We're understanding ourselves for the first time.

And I think, you know, sex is not talked about enough.

It's not talked enough about on.

On this podcast.

I think probably as I'm getting older, I'm getting a bit braver.

I've realized that my kids and my husband don't listen to this podcast, and sometimes my mum does.

But.

But I'm going to be really brave today, and I'm going to lean in to a conversation which I know is probably going to be very helpful for a lot of women who are just wanting to understand themselves and be like.

So, like, that's why I do this, and that's why I feel this.

Or that's why, you know, sometimes that's really hard for me.

And maybe we can just go there and, you know, hear from both of you what you guys are hearing on the ground, what you've written about in the book and how women can start helping themselves and communicating better with their partners.

One of the things that I'm Most passionate about this book is that we wrote it so that people would not feel broken.

We understand that for a lot of ADHD women, they're perceived as kind of this manic pixie girl, and it's so cute and they're so forgetful and whatever.

And that kind of reducing us to almost children is a really annoying subset.

In the same way as autistic people are reduced to basically being of child intelligence and not really understanding anything and all of those kind of stereotypes, we were trying to look around to try and find something that represented us and couldn't find it.

So I think what's going on on the ground is a lot more women being diagnosed obviously later in life.

I think a lot more women are also finding sex and finding their body later in life simply because there's more divorces and people are, you know, marrying a bit later and all of these things.

That has really.

And honestly, I think more acceptance of menopause has also helped because women in menopause are also now showing up and going, I want sex too.

I'm having sex too.

It's just changed slightly.

And the overlap between things of menopause and neurodiversity is really interesting.

But essentially we say, you know, respect what your body wants.

Understand that you're always going to be chasing dopamine.

So you may make some poor sexual decisions.

Unless you can really work out how to deal with your impulsivity, there's going to be overwhelm from a number of different things.

And you have to be able to advocate for your needs because the more you try to mask, the more you try to hide, the more you try to do things, the more that are nice for your partner or will suit them or that they like in bed, et cetera, it just results in you getting to the state of complete burnout.

Because you can't keep being a fake all the time, especially not with your intimate partner.

Yeah, yeah.

Sara, what have you got to say on that?

I was going to say in terms of the landscape when we were writing the book, we were looking around for materials to kind of bounce off or build on and not reinvent the wheel.

But the only two things I found were Emma Sale, who is a big heroine of mine, who did a jacket comment, actually a testimonial, she created Killing Kittens when she was 25, which is an amazing empire of sex positivity.

And also Esther Perel's mating in captivity.

You know, Buntler talks about an awakening.

I think my awakening was discovering killing kittens was a thing discovering things like Field, which is a really great sex positive app, and mating in captivity.

And that was it.

That was all I had to go on.

I didn't even know anyone who knew those resources.

I couldn't talk to anyone about them, but I found them.

So it's pretty bleak out there.

And some of the stuff Buntla describes, like menopause or dopamine, I've never seen any of those things mentioned in sex and relationship books at all.

Yeah, I mean, I love Esther Perel.

I love her work.

For me, it comes down to a lot of not.

I didn't understand my sensory needs and the sensory side, that would either make my, like, everything just tense up, or I just was like, oh, my God, that's not for me.

Or why, why does that feel good?

And because I didn't know I was adhd, I didn't understand about the sensory side.

And so I probably shamed myself or told myself, like, just to push through and all of that.

And then when we understand that, like, why, why are we not understanding, like, as women, like, why do we not get that we have different sensory needs?

And certain things turn us on and some certain things really turn us off.

Like, I have a thing about breath, and I have a thing about.

And I have a thing about being breathed on.

And I'm like, it's really hard for me.

And so obviously that breath comes in with sex.

And so maybe you can tell us a little bit about sensory needs as well.

I'd love to hear more.

Well, I know, oh, my goodness.

We'll definitely want to talk about this, but the one thing I want to say beforehand is to answer your question about why we are not paying more attention to our sensory needs, et cetera.

People should remember that we're also women in addition to being adhd.

And society has very much trained us that your discomfort is fine.

As long as you are looking after others, as long as they are good and you are perceived as someone who cares about them, then it's all good.

And I think when you layer that on top of trying to fit in, trying to be normal in very inverted commas, I think it just gets to the point where you are constantly trying to do this, even in bed, going, regardless of what I'm feeling, it's totally fine as long as he or she or they are okay.

Right.

And that's, that's the sadness for me because it's almost on top of our adhd, we also have to deal with those ideas about womanhood.

How would you.

I Guess if.

If someone is new to this and they want to communicate with their partner, you know, they love their partner, but their sexual health or their relationship is definitely not as good as they would like it to be.

They're not communicating properly.

Like, how do you start this convers?

Especially if you're not with a neurodivergent partner?

Or you might be both neurodivergent but have very different sensory needs and your energy needs, sexual needs, like all of this.

Like, how do we blend that together?

Because a lot of people give up.

They go, yeah, love this person, but you know, our sex life is just not the way it should be.

How do we stay and grow and evolve together?

Especially with this neurodivergent awareness.

It'S really terrifying accepting that it's a need because that could destabilize having a relationship, right?

You could be like, I have this need.

It's not being met.

And the ultimate thing could be you're not with the right person.

But a lot of the time it's not that a lot of desire.

We think that desire is spontaneous, but it's very often reactive.

That was the first thing I learned when I had sex coaching.

I lost my virginity to six black plastic tubes once I'd had my hymen removed by a doctor.

So the idea of me becoming some kind of person who's written a sex book with Buntler is hilarious because I couldn't even do the basics of learn losing my own virginity.

But what I've learned by being so alien and estranged from my own body is there's no representation of difference.

So these conversations are really hard.

And I think I have learned through having sex coaching and relationship therapy myself, that actually being able to say things in an empowered way rather than going, you know, I just hate sex, this isn't working.

And shutting down by being kind of like, you know what?

I think we might be making some assumptions here that things are going to turn us on.

And I can't really honestly say it's doing it for me.

Could we look at something else?

Could we look at going to work with someone and discussing it?

Although the problem, I think is a lot of people think that the suggestion of sex therapy or coaching in a relationship means it's the beginning of the end.

And actually it can be the beginning.

It can be a kind of like, how do we make this look in the future?

It can be beautiful, but it's really hard if you're the one being proposed to and having this idea given to you.

It can be Hard to trust that the person isn't kind of trying to say, look, I think we might be breaking up.

I think if I am trying to also talk to someone about how they open up that conversation when they do feel like they may be breaking up.

The first thing is don't have that conversation in bed.

Do not have that conversation when your feelings are elevated, when you're either overexcited or really feeling down, you need to pick a calm moment where you both can speak in private without anyone else listening to you.

And then I think you need to also talk about what actually turns you on.

Right?

Some people have a little yes, no form that they make, and it has all sorts of different things.

You can find many of them online and you just give it to your partner and say like, hey, you know, this is my line, or you do yours first, or whatever, you want to do it together.

As long as you can do it in an honest way, you can turn it almost into a bit of a game.

It's like, hey, you know, I'm going to discover interesting things about you and even something that you love.

You then can have a conversation, if they don't like that, about how to make that work.

You can add your sensory needs to that list as well.

Right?

Like I need to have sex with music on, I need to have sex in a certain temperature.

All of those things allow you to advocate for your needs without having to explicitly say things or say it as though your partner is lacking.

Right?

You can, in that way, I think, have a really good conversation.

And the third thing I would say is people forget about non sexual touching and they forget that the needs that they have as humans to just touch.

And usually if there's problems with the sex life, people forget about non sexual touching.

So I would say ban sex for a month.

Just actually ban it.

And in that time, spend the time touching each other, right?

Just tenderly, etc.

You can fool around a little bit, but really be quiet, be in bed, touch each other, hug each other, kiss each other, but no sex.

Because you'll find that the more time you spend, you know, with that intimacy and that touch, it starts to trigger a little bit of that desire and then you can figure out what to do with it.

And if you end up having sex in that month, totally fine.

But there's no pressure.

And the pressure is the big problem.

The pressure, absolutely.

Sara, I know that you wanted to say something.

We thought that we were writing a book about sex and when we put out all the topics we were going to Cover.

We realized that the one thing we hadn't written was love and what we ended up doing because it took two years.

This book is writing a book about connection and intimacy.

And I think I'll speak for myself, but I think that both of us got comfortable with intimacy in a way maybe we hadn't been previously.

Buntla's nodding and not hating on me, so that's good.

Sorry about.

But it's, it's.

We.

We did genuinely, like, we'd had lots of experiences, you know, we kind of knew that, you know, we, we had imaginations and we were quite confident and we were quite okay with meeting new people and experimenting.

We were quite out there in some of the things that we could and, and, and had done, but we weren't comfortable with intimacy.

And on the sensory point, I wanted to say this whole breath thing is a massive thing with sex and kissing and everything.

And I have this too.

I can't use mint toothpaste.

I can't be around anyone who's been anything around mint.

And of course, the minute you start having a hookup or a date, people start using gum or they start using a mouthwash or whatever, and, and I can't.

So I would meet people and be like, by the way, you know, I don't know, get some lemon juice or something.

But that's a big thing.

And actually a lot of mums find out that their kids are autistic for the fact that they hate brushing their teeth and they fight.

They find out that they can't stop, understand anything mentholated or mint.

And I just wanted to mention that because personal hygiene and sex and all of that is, is very, very linked.

That's so interesting.

I'd not heard of that before.

That's really interesting.

So out of interest, what do you prefer then?

What is.

What if it's not going to be like a mint toothpaste or, or anything?

What.

What would be that preference for you.

That they use like a, a child's mouthwash, like a berry or a lemon?

You can get.

There's a, there's a brand out there.

You can get Black Forest Gateau.

You can get.

You know, I've never really had a toothpaste that isn't like lemon or lime.

With the full fluoride.

A lot of people think if you use a herbal or if you use a child's dental care, there won't be enough fluoride.

And that's not true.

Those of us that are okay with using fluoride.

So there are Loads of options.

I know in the Karma suture, I think they talk about chewing on seeds and things to freshen up and fennel.

You know, I have to have someone with freshly mouthwashed or teeth, whatever.

Bad breath is my thing and I just, I can't handle it.

Right.

I've literally said to people, like started making out and then being like, you know what, please go to the bathroom and brush your teeth.

You can use my toothbrush, I don't care.

It's weird, but I can't do this.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm not going to pry too much in your, into your personal lives, but I don't know if you have long term partners now or not, but if you have been with a long term partner and you're still together and you know, there's kids, there's life, there's work, there's responsibilities and that spark, like you want to maintain that spark.

And like you say, like I got a thing, like I smell, like my sense of smell is off the charts.

I can smell absolutely everything.

And that is hard.

And so personal hygiene is a big deal.

And it can sound a little bit like you're being critical or rude.

And I can be a bit blunt sometimes because once that's, I've smelt something, that's it, everything, it's gone out the window.

I think it must be hard to be married to me because I'm so picky and these words, the shame, the words and all of that.

And it's.

And it's hard because you kind of want to make that other person feel good as well.

But it's trying to bring them in, isn't it, so they can understand and you know, thankfully my husband is quite understanding.

I wonder how do we have those conversations with the partner who is kind of on board but still a bit like, oh, you know, that's rude or you're being critical or you're being a bit stuck in your ways or all the words that we hear, especially as the neurodivergent one.

Well, I was the one who was in a long term neurotypical and neurodivergent mixed relationship in my marriage.

Sara is very lucky that she has a neurodivergent partner.

And so she's on a different journey so she can speak to hers.

But I think that one of the most important things I had to learn is no one's doing you a favor by loving you.

You are not difficult to love or be in a relationship with.

You know, who else might be, you know, triathletes Right.

They're terrible to be in a relationship with because they're always training and they're always busy.

You know, professional athletes are the same thing.

Actors have to travel all the time.

Someone who has three kids from a divorce, there are many things that make us all difficult to date.

And I think that as neurodivergent women, we internalize a lot of those things and assume that it must be this terrible burden really to deal with us.

And, and it's awkward because a lot of the neurotypical people who've written books about being in relationships with nd people, it does sound like, please give me a medal because I am doing the work by being with this person and suffering through this.

And so the first thing is really getting rid of that language in your mind.

I think before you even get to talking about anything, get rid of the idea that they're doing you a favor.

And once you've done that, you can really see what your real relationship is like.

Because I discovered that my relationship was built on someone who was always saving me.

And I was this damsel who couldn't go shopping or couldn't, you know, pay the rent on time or whatever.

And he was just swooping in to fix everything.

But then when I grew up a little bit, got a bit more confident, understood myself a bit more, I wanted to do things myself.

And that wasn't okay at that stage.

Right.

I wish I'd taken the time to go, I'm not being difficult, but how are you responding to this?

Yeah.

God, it just shows, doesn't it?

Communication is everything.

And just being able to have these open communication, open conversations can really make or break a marriage or a partnership or, you know, it really just to be able to have validation.

Because when we don't have the language or we're not even sure what our reality is, or we've been gaslit, or we've believed that we've been the problem, then it's we.

I think professional help is, is, has, is a must.

I mean, I literally just wrote a post before we came onto this conversation, interestingly, about, I wonder if therapy and marriage counseling or anything, anything like this should be as mandatory as like an mot.

You know, like we pay our mortgage, we have to do an mot, we have to do certain things because it's been demanded from us.

But actually we should be investing in our self development and our mental wellbeing the same way as we invest in all the other things and think about the prevention side, like the prevention of marriage and Partnership breakdowns.

Think about that knock on effect, like being able to grow together as a relationship, I think is profound.

Especially when you want to.

You want to have a long term relationship and you want to kind of grow together.

Sara, I was wondering maybe what kind of like advice that you have with regards to someone listening now who does want to have more of these open conversations.

I know that you are a therapist and like, how do you, I guess, work with couples who are coming?

I don't know if you do work with couples or not.

I don't see couples.

I see individuals.

Okay.

Mainly because of being autistic, I find all the dynamics in one space quite overwhelming.

Yeah, but what I would say is your podcasting.

Buntle, as a sex coach and a writer, I'm a therapist.

It's easy for us in a way to talk about this stuff.

And I'm always surprised when I speak to clients at how hard it is to mention this stuff.

But I also know it's hard.

It's easy to coexist with a partner, to be dating or to live together and to sort of be parallel to each other's lives.

It's hard to look them in the eye, especially when you're autistic.

It's hard to look them in the eye and go, you know what?

This isn't enough.

This isn't working.

I need you to touch me.

I need you to do that.

I need you to never clean your teeth right before kissing me.

I know it's really hard to look someone in the eye and be that blunt about sex.

And it's great to learn that it's not an optional extra.

It's an essential part of our being.

Whether you're spiritual or not, it's our life force, it's our energy.

It's, you know, if you want to talk about chakra health or whatever, like, you know, we all relate to the fact that you can't just, you can't just cut your sexual energy out and act like it's not happening.

But I know that it's risky to address it.

My tips would be things like if you're having to constantly mention that you're neurodivergent, then you're not feeling psychologically safe to just relax and be neurodivergent.

So there needs to be some discussion around what being neurodivergent even means to start with.

And I think that psychological safety is really, really important.

You might also want to make a decision as to whether you want to be with a neurodivergent person specifically.

I actually find a great refuge in friends and partners who come from some kind of minority background of a, of any kind.

Because I feel that what people of minority backgrounds have in common is they know what it's like to be othered in different ways and they know what it's like to not feel psychologically safe and to be on hyper vigilant and hyper alert all the time.

So my advice could be, you know, do you want to be with someone who's neurotypical and not getting it?

They might be neurotypical and getting it.

I'm not saying don't date neurotypicals, that's not the point.

But they need to get.

I think the psychological safety and the fact that masking for us is a survival instinct.

It's not a cute and quirky mask that we put on and off like this chameleon image.

It very much is survival.

It's, it's keeping us alive.

Masking is fundamental and I think if someone doesn't understand that you've got real issues in the relationship way below the level of having sex with them.

Yeah, I think that psychological safety is so validating and so important to hear you say those words.

Like again, it's the articulation of something like, oh, that is what I'm not feeling.

I'm not feeling understood.

I'm not feeling like someone is taking an interest in, in what works for me.

And like you say, if I drop this mask and I'm authentic, like will I still be accepted and will I still be loved and will I still be that person that they want to be with and being able to know that we're held and we're in it, we're in a safe space and we can start being a bit more articulate with our needs.

Well, as Bontla says, nobody goes into a relationship with nothing.

Right.

We all have something that the other person needs to, to get used to or tolerate or compromise over, etc.

And I think that it's important that people either get comfortable with themselves and what they, how they want to show up as an nd person in a relationship.

But you don't always have to label things.

You know, if you're someone who isn't into labels, you, you're self diagnosed, you don't really want to medicalize your conversation with your partner.

You can say, this is giving me the ick.

I'm not keen on that.

You know, you can say I'd rather you didn't.

You don't have to to say, I Have a sensory sensitivity, you know, you can phrase it how you like, but unless you do the work, you accept yourself, you learn about yourself, you learn to self advocate.

You can't really communicate with another person, so it really is an inside job.

Before establishing the fundamentals with the others.

I went on so many dates where I'd be like, well, I'm actually autistic.

And they'd be like, right, well, I'm guessing it doesn't affect you much because you've got a business and you seem fine kind of thing.

And that was so offensive.

But then I was thinking, what did I expect them to do with that?

You know?

Now when I see dating profiles and the person goes, I've got adhd, I'm like, cool, but what do you want the person to.

That doesn't really tell them anything about you in a way, like when you're self disclosing.

I would say this even in the workplace.

To what end are you self disclosing?

So sticking on a dating profile, I'm ADHD or telling your partner I'm going to get diagnosed.

That is one thing.

And that could be serving a purpose.

But what are you trying to achieve by saying it?

Because if it's for.

In my case it was, I'm going to put it out there now because in three dates I'm going to become a clingy, horrible, emotional mess and you're going to think I'm going idiot and not want to see me again.

Then I was like, well, maybe that's the bit I need to look at.

Why in three dates time am I going to be a clingy, emotional oh, because I will have unmasked and I'll be sick of it by then and then they won't like me for who they thought I was.

Right, okay, we'll deal with that then.

But just telling them, oh, by the way, I'm autistic or I'm ND isn't really mitigating for the complication further down the line when I stop masking.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

Are you seeing a difference or a change in mindset or an evolution from say our generation, and I'm mid-40s to a younger generation, you know, even in early 30s, are they advocating for themselves?

Are they more empowered with it, being able to have these conversations or is this still sort of like a generational female pattern that we're seeing of where we are struggling?

We are you know, even, you know, 20s, 30s, that we're still finding it hard to step into this Sort of place of self, authority.

Well, I see people who are 16 and I see people in their 70s.

Okay.

And I think what makes the difference is when they found out and how they go about processing their life presently and retroactively through the lens of neurodiversity, whether they are 16 or 70 actually is not what makes them more or less good at accepting advocating, as you might think it would.

You might think it was generational.

I think it's more about the fact that we are where we are today in society and this is how we view it.

And here are the people of all the different age groups now dealing with that.

It's more of a societal thing, rather a generational thing, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

I think obviously it's going to change geographically as well, because what is true in the UK may not be true in, you know, Ghana.

But for me, I'm definitely seeing that women in their 20s, 100% are still trying to do whatever they can to please their partner because they just kind of don't know any better.

But a lot of people are going into their 30s and opting out of the system entirely.

So just going dating is not really worth it.

Everything is expensive.

I don't really feel like I'm going to have a wedding.

You know, what is the point of this?

I'd rather be with my friends because my friends actually have much longer relationships with them.

I can count on them.

I can't really count on dating.

So that's been a trend that we're seeing all over the world.

Right.

And it is as women become more financially independent in their 30s as well, that now people are just going, you know, I don't think this is really worth, you know, the juice is not worth the squeeze.

Yes.

And take that as you want, I think.

Well, we didn't have that one in the book.

You did come out with some quarters when we didn't have that one.

That's the name of your next book.

I love it.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I agree with you.

I am hearing similar as well.

You know, especially you see the rise of women having children on their own, you know, using sperm donors, choosing that they would rather parent and do it on their own rather than kind of settle for someone who is not right for them or that they have to change or mask.

And I feel like that is maybe an interesting way that it's going.

But I wonder, is that also detrimental to being able to learn how to evolve and grow together as well?

I don't know.

I think that neurodivergent people often have different understandings of what relationship means and are often much more open to things like ethical non monogamy or polyamory, etc.

And so maybe you don't want to grow and learn with this person.

Maybe you're going, this is a two year thing.

We're going to both enjoy it and have a great time and be intimate and be friends and then leave.

Right.

You can decide to do those things.

But I think I'm not sure that people are missing out on things if people don't have the emotional intelligence and the emotional availability to do those things with them.

Right.

Because I'm not really seeing lesbians not dating.

It does seem to be a very heterosexual thing and it's a little, you know, and the men are trash.

We don't really need to go into that kind of discourse.

But I think it is women who are looking at that and going, it's not worth it.

And it's not just from the perspective of it won't be fun.

We have a part in the book where we talk about, you know, how do you know when it's time to leave?

Because neurodivergent women have a much higher likelihood of being in situations where there's domestic violence or there's psychological abuse or coercion, gaslighting.

And so you begin to not trust yourself at all and keep on staying in these situations where someone is bringing down your confidence and your self esteem and not helping you move forward in that situation.

You're never going to grow with that person.

Right.

You are going to in fact keep on shrinking.

So there is a certain point at which I think people have to go like, is this relationship serving me?

If this person was my friend, would I put up with this behavior?

If my friend was with this person, what would I advise them?

You know, depersonalize it in some way.

Take yourself out of that context.

Because otherwise you may end up kind of sleepwalking into a relationship thinking, we're going to be together, we're going to grow together and then hanging on to it because you want that dream of the 40 year wedding anniversary or whatever.

Right?

Yeah.

I think what's interesting is that a lot of women who are getting these, this awareness, this, these diagnoses in midlife, it's colliding with menopause, perimenopause, and that they're both awakenings, aren't they?

You know, if you're, you know nd or not, you are going to have this shift in this change of chapter during perimenopause and it's like we're peeling away layers and becoming someone else.

And then we have this understanding of our brain and our nervous system and hormones and everything that comes with this.

That's, that's, you know, that we've had, but just didn't know what it was.

And I see this in my community a lot, that women are just going, saw this.

I'm out.

I'm not with this person anymore.

I'm changing my career.

I'm moving.

Like things are changing because I've settled for so long.

It's like a big eruption.

And so, yeah, I think it's exciting, but it's hard as well.

It's very unsettling.

And it's like everything has to break down to be rebuilt again.

Are you seeing this as well, Sara?

Well, I was just going to say settling is a big thing with autism, isn't it?

Because it's better the devil you know.

It's a routine of sorts.

It's really hard to break a routine, even if it's a painful and an abusive one.

Even Buntler mentioned abuse.

We're far more likely to have coercive control and other forms of domestic and intimate partner violence in our lives.

We're also more likely to be in poverty and we're more likely to have complex trauma and to bulldoze over the red flags of real distress and difficulty in our life because it's become so normal.

So for all of these reasons, you can see why we might stay and we might even think, well, God, a good sex life is a bit of a luxury.

To be fair.

I'm, you know, I might as well just be here and at least I'm safe.

I can, I can see how we do that.

I know how we do that.

I've been there.

I've had four abusive partners.

And I know that a lot of the time it was.

Was easier to be with someone who was abusive than dealing with my own intrusive thoughts because being intimate with people put me on overload.

I couldn't process.

I now know that my intrusive thoughts and ocd, which are very overlapping with autism and adhd.

And I now have perimenopause as well.

And yesterday I got told you I've probably developed PMDD because the 10 days before every period at the moment are off the scale worrying, like really, really terrifying.

And I didn't even know until yesterday that you can develop PMDD in later life.

And I want to share that information because I got that from a doctor and I think that's quite important.

You know, as you're talking about this, it also made me think, for a lot of my friends who got divorces in our early 30s and continued kind of doing the divorce thing into mid-30s, late 30s, early 40s, the one awakening that we're happening as often because it comes with diagnoses, is we're learning that all the things we thought were faults aren't false.

There's not bugs in the code, right?

These are how your brain work.

You don't have a choice about some of it.

And honestly, there are some really great things about being in relationships with people who are neurodivergent.

Right.

And I think that as women are more accepting of themselves and their symptoms, they're going, these aren't really symptoms, they're kind of just traits.

And you can take them or leave them.

But I'm pretty great, you know, I am creative, I believe in justice.

My heart is so huge.

I will do anything for you.

I'm super loyal.

All I want to do is solve problems.

You know, love, sex, all of these things, right?

Can make you a fabulous partner.

And I think a lot of women that I've met certainly are just like, if he didn't see that, that's him, Effy.

Amazing.

I love that because when you look at the books, when you, when, when we were writing our book, I was like trying to find books on this stuff.

And it was all about how your male Asperger's partner is a nightmare and you deserve a medal for being with him or, you know, how an Asperger's male partner will be cold and unloving and potentially even borderline narcissistic, abusive.

And, and that was it.

It was a.

All about men.

It was very disparaging about Asperger's men and it was never about adhd, anyone.

It wasn't about women, non binary people, trans people.

It was just quite depressing.

And, you know, I think that we live in a society where you're either sick and not functioning or you're well and functioning to a degree.

And we don't know enough about the social model of disability and the fact that loads of us are just in the middle somewhere dealing day to day with just being different statistically.

But I just want to say that when we talk about neurodiversity, there will be a lot of people going, oh my God, you know, everyone's on a spectrum.

Everyone's getting diagnosed.

I keep reading the paper.

Everyone's got a label.

We are not all On a spectrum, neurodivergent people have a brain structure that is intact, like neurotypical people, but they have a markedly different brain activity.

So how we view the world, interpret the world, perceive the world, respond to the world, conceive of the world is a hundred percent different to our neurotypical peers.

So something that involves connection and intimacy and vulnerability and sex and sentiment, sensory, like, obviously, we're going to process it all through those lenses, but they are differences.

And we are wonderful people.

You know, we're not.

We're not good or bad because when you're a divergent, it's just, we are, you know, we're on a different kind of mainframe.

You know, we're a.

We're the PCs in a world of Apple Macs or whatever, you know, but we're just different.

We're just approaching stuff differently.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I love that.

And the more we have this conversation, we normalize what you just said.

It's just like, yeah, okay, so it's okay to still exist and coexist altogether, but there's differences, and I accept that those differences and the other differences, and we just kind of learn to live in this ecosystem where there's no right and there's no wrong.

And I think, you know, going back to the sex conversation is like saying, how can we create a fulfilling relationship that feels like we're growing and changing and evolving together with understanding and being able to have a conversation that doesn't feel like we're criticizing, it doesn't feel like we are kind of nitpicking and we can ask for what we need.

And I think that's really empowering and it feels positive.

So, yeah, I'm down.

I'm down for it all.

Go for it, Sara.

It is really empowering.

But I just wanted to say that when Buntla talks about differences, the reason that point for me is so important is unless we start seeing it as differences and owning it and being proud to show up as who we are, we are ripe for scapegoating.

And I will get, as a therapist, I'll get people message me going, my husband needs to see you or my child.

You know, if it was family therapy, it would be the ND problem child.

But the problem will be systemic.

The problem will be in the hole.

When your nd, like when you have any other health condition or disability or difference, is very easy if you're not sure of yourself, to be labeled as the mental one, the psycho one, the problem, the fragile one, the sick one.

Meanwhile, Everyone else goes about their dysfunctional day in total secrecy and dignity.

And we're, you know, and I get so true.

And I see, I see the, the sick one is the babysitter of the family.

But the, you know, all the.

Or the one that everyone's putting their problems in comes on like, there's always a scapegoat and it's, it's too easy to go, I'm gonna send you off for therapy.

It's really a shame how many people get bolstered up by this new learning about themselves and they want to take their partner on that journey with them and the partner is the very defensive and will say, I'm not going to therapy.

You sort yourself out.

This is.

I'm not the neurodivergent one, but the problem is systemic.

It is not a you problem, it's a we problem.

So true.

Oh, my God, yes.

I mean, I think this conversation is going to be really helpful and probably there's going to be.

Pose a lot more questions and I'm sure there'll be.

You'll get lots of feedback.

And I think just to have a conversation like this where we're opening our eyes to different options and different possibilities and the.

What you just said, then it's like it's not always us that has to hold and absorb the problems and absorb the, the, like you say, the scapegoating that, yeah, like we could be married to someone who is neurotypical but still have lots of different issues that they need to deal with.

And it's not just up to us to fix the situation and, and either find a way to get over whatever issues that we we've got, all the sensory stuff and all the other things like you say, like, with regards to, like, OCD and the many different traits that we have with our anxiety and, you know, physical health conditions as well, just from holding and absorbing and sort of trying to maintain this stress without sort of bothering anyone else.

It's a huge conversation.

And I know that, I know that this just, just having this here will.

Will be very helpful.

Can you tell me a little bit about if people are wanting to work with you or speak to you both individually?

Like, how do you both work?

Each of us have a website which is our names, so you can go onto those websites.

We also have one that is if you want to work with the two of us together, built2diverge.com where the messages go to both of us.

And we very much enjoy the experience of doing things apart as much as together and I think a lot of we're doing now is speaking mostly actually, rather than for me, it's not coaching, it's speaking and it's workshops and whatever.

For Sara, she still continues with her therapy and you can go to Wired Differently, which is her company.

She forgets that she's also a founder and a kick ass CEO and get help there because why?

Differently is made entirely for neurodivergent people and for supporting neurodivergent people, especially entrepreneurs.

And so if you want to, you know, work in Sara's mode and Sara does not have any time for new clients, I'd suggest y a different way.

Amazing.

I will make sure that, you know, all of that is in the show notes for sure, as well as the book as well.

I want to thank you both so much for being here and sharing your insights and I think being allowing us to have this conversation and allowing us to think differently and to wonder if there's a way, a different way of communicating and having these conversations and also not settling and not believing that we're the problem and knowing that we're worthy of more and we're worthy of a good life and a fun life and that might look different to perhaps what we believed it was going to look like.

So, yeah, thank you both so much.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you.