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My name is Jason Miller.

I'm a career flight instructor.

I've been teaching flying since 2002.

AV Nation what is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot the Pilot Podcast.

My name is Justin Seams and I am your host.

Today's episode is a part of the series I'm doing with Jason Miller from Learn the Finer Points.

This series highlights how to Become a Pilot we start how to become a Student pilot.

We did private pilot and now we are doing instrument rating Pilot ifr.

If you haven't listened to the other episodes or you want to start at the beginning, by all means click on those two.

First, if you're an IFR student, you are in IFR right now or about to start, then this is the one for you.

So Jason and I, we just dive right in.

As you're going to notice, we just start talking.

We joke about how if there's ever a microphone around and Jason and I, we can record and have podcasts forever.

It's just what we talk about and what you see is just our natural conversations.

And some would call us nerds, but.

I guess we just love what we.

Do and love to share this information, but I hope you enjoy this podcast.

I think it's a beneficial one for becoming an IFR student.

So check it out.

Also check out the Ground School app.

I'll put a code below that you can use to save some money off that app.

So check out in the description that code.

Or you can also head over to my website, Pilot the Pilot hq, scroll down to sponsors and partners and you can click on Jason's logo and it'll take you right to that webpage.

So Avnation, I don't want to take your time much longer.

So any further ado, here's how to become an IFR pilot with Jason Miller.

You never know when the emergency is going to come and there are stories of people on their solos losing engines or people on their first flight losing engines.

It's anytime you start that engine, engine, there's a chance that it could go out.

It's a lot of moving pieces in there, right?

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

And it's like anytime I can identify what I call the ostrich approach to like, to risk management, where it's just like, people just don't think about it.

Yeah, they just don't think about it.

You know, like an example might be, you could tell a pilot, hey, would you go fly six miles offshore here at a thousand feet in a single engine airplane on a beautiful VFR day?

And they'd be like, heck, no, I would never do that.

That's crazy.

If you lose your engine, you go in the water.

Okay.

Then two weeks later when the fog rolls in, they're flying the ILS into Monterey and they're five miles offshore at 1500ft.

Just not thinking about it.

It's just the ostrich approach.

You're just on the ils, See the water.

Yeah.

That risk no longer exists.

Yeah.

We were invisible.

I was doing aerial survey and this is one of the few planes that were IFR certified.

And we're down in Galveston and one of the we're landing.

I can't remember the Runway configuration, but we're landing either north, northeast, whatever it was where the ILS is over the water.

And that thought crossed my mind.

I was like, it was like marginal vfr.

It's like we could kind of get down, you know, it's like, how comfortable do I feel going that far out over the water?

And Houston Tech or Galveston, Texas, or just anywhere?

It's like, you gotta think about that sometimes.

Yeah, you do.

And to be fair, you know, my mentor Richard was the One who first sort of mentioned it to me.

And I think that's all we're really trying to do is get to get pilots to get their heads out of the sand and just consider these risks.

If you want to accept them, that's fine.

But I remember starting instrument training with Richard.

This is back in 1998, I think something like that.

And don't date yourself.

I said to him, yeah, sorry.

And I said to him, hey, let's fly the ils, you know, whatever the Runway nine approach or whatever it was in the Monterey.

And he said, I'm not doing that.

And I was like.

And I literally didn't know.

I was like, why wouldn't you do that?

He's like, do you see that?

He's like, that's four and a half miles offshore and you're at 1300ft.

He's like, would you do that VFR?

You know, maybe if you're a Gulf Stream, fly that approach, but not for me and my 172, you know.

So, I mean, we have to really consider, like, what risks we're taking on.

And I think, like, to your point, it's a bit of a finer art in the beginning.

You're just overwhelmed.

Yeah.

And then as you get comfortable, I mean, here I am after two decades of experience, really starting to take some of the things that even we've been teaching more seriously.

Yeah.

And I was thinking about Monterey.

With my previous job, I went to Monterey quite a bit, and I don't think I've ever landed on nine in Monterey.

I think it's always been the other runways and there's been some.

The weather's beautiful there until it's not right, and then it's pretty bad.

And we've had some storms where we can't get in and go around, and the rain just sits there.

The clouds get low.

So Monterey, man, I love the area.

Having overnights in Monterey is amazing, but it's.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

But there's terrain there, too.

They've had a number of accidents.

People vectored into the mountain before.

Radar was really good.

Yeah.

Thank goodness for radar.

Yeah.

Right.

And terrain features on your eye.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, I know.

Right?

And Garmin Pilot.

Thank goodness.

And Garmin Pilot.

Right.

Amazing.

Yeah.

So we were.

We were previously talking about kind of our series that we're doing, and I figured we could just continue on.

We stopped Private Pilot.

I figured we just go straight into instrument pilot, and that kind of kicks into releases with your app as well.

So we'll plug that I'll pro.

I mean, I might just include everything we just talked about, because I feel like we just kind of hit the ground running and we'll just kind of segue into it.

Yeah.

I mean, always recording, man.

Always recording.

So, yeah, if you're listening now, this is technically the beginning of the podcast, but you got an extra eight minutes of just what normally happens when Jason and I talk.

It's just always that, like, it's just always a podcast.

We could always record it and it could be something useful, right?

That's right.

And we should.

Maybe we don't always, but we always should.

24.

7 Streaming podcast with Jason and Jess.

Sounds like a terrible idea.

Yeah, right.

Truman Show.

Oh, that would not be ideal.

But anyways, let's do a quick intro about yourself and then we'll get started.

Sure, sure.

Yeah.

My name is Jason Miller.

I'm a career flight instructor.

I've been teaching flying since 2002, primarily in the San Francisco Bay area.

I focus on technically advanced aircraft and instrument flying, really.

Although I teach a little bit of everything except multi and tail wheel.

I built a company called the Finer points.

So in 2005, I launched the very first flight training podcast, which grew into a YouTube channel.

As early as 2007, you said, don't date myself, but there you go, you're doing it.

It's okay.

Yeah, the YouTube channel has gone great and it's actually grown into what is my baby is a product called the Ground School app.

And the Ground School app is a repository for just about everything I know.

It's got a private course, an instrument course, better takeoffs and landings course coming soon.

Mastering IFR course coming soon.

All of it for one price.

The only catch is you need an Apple device.

It's iOS only.

But apart from that, you can access all of my knowledge through Ground School.

All.

You can access the brain.

You get the brain.

I'm online@ learnthefinerpoints.com.

Sorry, I'm trying to think of the movie where they.

Where they uploaded, like, consciousness into AI and it's like what you're doing for your app, it's just Jason's consciousness right there.

Yeah.

It's funny, we've actually looked at that.

We've been talking to some AI people.

I don't want to derail this conversation, but it's hard to see exactly where that's going.

Right.

Yeah.

I feel like every company is trying to implement AI in some way, so be interesting to see how it pans out in applications in aviation Whether we're talking about Garmin pilot or whatever you use, you know, there could be some help with AI with planning flights or doing other stuff, but legality of stuff, it's like, well, don't trust the computer.

All, you know, just there's a mess in there.

Right.

But AI is definitely going to come and be a bigger part of what we do.

So something just to keep an eye on.

Yeah, yeah, for sure it will.

And you know what's funny is though, like, I really find often what I end up saying to my team and I'm really blessed at this point to have a team of about 12 people helping build ground school.

Um, but I always tell them that I think nobody's really done the basics well.

So like it's like whenever there's a lot of fancy new things, at least in flight training, like if someone tells me, oh, they can create an AI flight instructor, they can build this tool that does this thing and shows you the data and you're 6.7cm off your center line on every 1.4g landing.

And all this stuff is like, I think we can just go back to basics.

I don't believe that for the last 120 years we've really done a great job of teaching the basics.

And so a lot of the tools that we've built into the app are not really fancy per se, but they are just valuable in teaching the basics.

You know, a quick example is we've built this tap target thing where we show video from the cockpit from the pilot's view and we ask people to touch the screen where they see things and when they see things and we can tell them where they should be looking.

You know, these are very old.

This is what Richard taught me.

This is just old school stuff.

It's not a fancy piece of data or anything.

It's just a way to evaluate are we teaching you valuable things, are you learning them and can you apply them in the airplane?

There's a lot of that in the app.

Yeah.

And that's something that it's hard to teach.

Right.

It's something that you gotta kind of pick up on your own.

And when someone's sitting next to you just saying, all right, look there.

And you're like, where, where's there?

But if you have like an actual guideline of like, all right, tap here, that's where you should look.

That's what the site picture should look like.

Yeah, that.

And when I teach, I of course always fly with a heads up display.

Yeah, the Expo marker.

So My students all have a heads up display.

We just write on the window where you're supposed to look.

Oh, that's cool.

Never.

Yeah, with.

Yeah, but with the technology in the app, you know, we can, then we can show them that and then ask them to prove it, you know.

So what else is going on with the app?

Recently I know you're, you're more focused.

You had private pilot.

Now you have instrument rating.

How's everything been going with that?

It's been going great.

I think maybe I'm not the world's best businessman.

We're leaving money on the table.

It's all one price.

But there's a reason for that and I'm excited about where we're headed with it.

So the exciting part for users now is they get everything in the app.

The private course, the instrument course.

And I think some of the challenges for us is to help experienced pilots understand that there's valuable content deep in there that they might not know about.

And so we're building this, like I said, mastering IFR course and mastering landings course.

And the nice thing about being one price is we can just add all this stuff to the app and it's just a more compelling reason why somebody should own it and engage with it.

And what's crazy about it.

I'm really, I'll keep going.

Well, I was just gonna say I'm really fortunate, like I said a minute ago, to be surrounded by such incredible people.

You know, we're all committed to making what we believe is the best flight training product ever.

And that's like what we're focused on.

And it's inspiring.

You know, a lot of the guys are just brilliant.

One of them is a UPS pilot, one's a prime pilot.

They're all active flight instructors, former military guys.

I just feel really lucky to be working with the guys I'm working with and girls and building what we're building.

I love it.

I really do.

And I'm getting ready to start renting a bonanza at a local flying club.

And I was just like some of the concepts of flying a small plane are so, so far removed from my brain.

With my training, with all my 121 AQP.

I mean obviously they're still there, right?

Once I get into it, it's going to take like an hour or two and everything should come back.

But I was just playing through the ground school app as well and just like clicking buttons like, all right, let me try to remember tomato fl.

Tomato flames or let me try to remember like this, like just the basic stuff, just so I can kind of have an idea.

Because it's a total different world.

You, you as an airline pilot can find yourself in a lot of trouble.

We're not necessarily flying just regulation wise because when you go to the airplane, you know, you look for the maintenance book, you look for, you sign stuff.

And there's a lot of people doing other jobs where when you're flying your small plane, it's pretty much you doing your job.

If you're running from a flying club, you got to make sure other people did their job too.

So a lot more to kind of take into consideration.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's, you know, that's a, that's a good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about because I really believe in ritualization, you know, of the flying.

And I know in your professional life there's a lot of that.

Yeah, right.

Like when you get into the, to the, when you go up on the flight deck and you are flying with a captain you've never met at what, at the airlines, both of you are sort of involved in executing a ritual that you have both rehearsed independently, but now you're doing it together.

If you knew your part in a play and the captain knew their part in the play, even though you guys have never performed it together, you could theoretically jump on stage and just start executing the play.

That's how the pros work.

And I'm a big believer in that at all levels, you know, even at the private level.

So we teach it that way.

I teach it that way in a normal living three dimensional students and we teach it that way in our app.

But I also think that's a huge bit of like a, of gold.

So when people say to me like, oh, I don't need your app.

I already did my ground school, I already passed my written.

I'm like, well, wait a minute, you know, check it out, there's a free trial.

You can go into the flight side, look for these little gold nuggets that maybe you haven't, maybe your instructor didn't teach you that way.

And to make it easier for people, that's the kind of stuff we're going to bring forward and just make like a mini course for anybody that has never seen a full set of single pilot SOPs, you know, and they're not, they're not mine.

I mean, I took these SOPs from professional single pilot operators over the years.

Yeah, absolutely.

They're mine as much as they're anybody's.

But it's one place for everyone to kind of find it out, which is really cool.

But we are here today to one, talk about the app, obviously, because it's great, fantastic.

And then like you said, it's your baby.

But number two, continue the series of no great.

I love learning more about it.

Continue the series of how to become a pilot.

We did student pilot, we did private pilot, instrument pilot, and who knows how long we'll go on for this.

Maybe we'll do space rocket pilot.

If we can get someone qualified to talk about that in your mind, I'll start it off with this.

What makes a good instrument student?

We talked about private students.

We talked about, before you become a private, all the work you need to do.

But when you get to instrument, it's a different language.

Everything you learned is going to be so different than what you're about to do and so foreign.

How much pre work should someone do?

Like should.

Should someone complete a full course before they even go for their instrument flying?

Um, learn on the fly.

Just kind of talk about what I should do before I even start flying instrument.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Well, I think because it's your second thing potentially, or at least you've done a certificate already, it makes more sense with the instruments to go through the written before you get started.

You know, with the private.

If it's.

If you're brand new to flight training and you do it that way, it's.

You're easily overwhelmed or you're going to read things that just don't make sense.

Pappy.

You read about Pappy three months ago, but then you're out there in the field and your instructor says, hey, there's a Pappy.

You're like, what the heck was that thing I read about?

You know, you don't remember.

But now that you know what becoming a pilot is like, going into the instrument rating, you really should get a lot of that ground knowledge out of the way because you don't want to be worrying about things like chart symbology or what is an mea or what is a mocha or an a roca.

You want all that knowledge in place because flying instruments is more advanced, it's more complex, and it's straight up harder.

So that basic knowledge you just kind of need to have in place.

And I always say to new instrument students, flying instruments is like doing something you've always done and that you know how to do well.

Like riding a bike, for example.

Only now you're blindfolded and you have a little elf on Your shoulder telling you what's happening.

Here comes a turn.

Here comes a turn.

Here comes a turn.

Okay, lean, lean, lean.

Stop your turn.

Stop your turn.

You know, like.

And every bit of information you're getting is by definition old.

You know, it's just slightly old.

Doesn't have to be that old.

Here comes the turn.

Turn.

Now I turn.

You know, it's like, that's how instrument flying works.

So getting comfortable with that.

And the.

There's.

There's an analogy in instrument flying, too.

And I always put these pictures that I'm giving you here and the listeners.

I always put these pictures in people's minds.

The other one I do is like, imagine you have an office floor, like a whole office floor, where you've got different rooms.

And I always imagine something circular, like a circular tower with a hallway that goes around the outside.

And there's all these conference rooms, let's say six conference rooms.

And you're the boss, and your job is to make sure that all six teams in those conference rooms finish at exactly the same time in 30 minutes.

So you have to run into one room and say, how you guys doing?

You're doing good.

Okay, everything's fine.

Okay, I'll be right back.

You're into the next room.

Like, how you guys doing?

Okay, everything's good.

I'll be right back.

You run into the third room.

They're like, sir, we got a problem.

There's no way we can handle this.

You're like, okay, good.

Hold on a minute.

I'll be right back.

You know, and you, like, you figure out how you're going to work that problem.

But you can't go into that problem and stay there till 6 without going into the other rooms.

You can't just say, okay, you got a problem.

Let's roll up our sleeves and let's spend the next 30 minutes finishing this.

Because there's other rooms happening, right?

So flying instruments is a little bit like that.

There's flying the airplane.

There's programming the radios.

There's navigating, there's communicating with air traffic control.

There's briefing, what you're going to do when you get there.

There are a lot of different things that have to be done at once.

But because nothing can be done at once, it's a lot of checking in with little things.

And if you are.

If you find yourself deep in a problem, it's a red flag.

Like, lift your head up and figure out what are you missing.

Like, you're stuck in a room right now, and maybe you do have a problem.

But if you don't pick your head up and come out of that room, other problems are going to happen and the whole thing is going to go off the rails.

Right.

So that picture, I think is important also.

And then the last one I'll give you for instrument flying is the juggler.

You know that there is a physic, I call it a physiological reaction, but everybody has it, myself included, everybody.

The saturation point where you can't think anymore and you can tell when a student's there because you could say like, what's your name?

And they'll say standby.

They literally can't even hear what's your name.

They can't process the question.

They can't answer Jason.

So they say, stand by.

That person is saturated.

The good news is the saturation point is like a muscle.

And the image that we paint for it is, you know, like a juggler.

Juggling balls.

Juggling one ball, you throw them another ball.

Three balls or two balls, three balls, four balls, five balls, six balls are really good.

Eventually there's going to come a ball where they can't catch it.

And when they can't catch it, they don't just miss that one.

The whole house of cards comes down.

And that's what happens at the saturation point.

And so as a cfi, if you're aware of that and you have to make your student aware of it, you know, like if you work with it is.

What I'm saying is, like, you push your student to the saturation point.

You push them right there and then you dial it back.

Push them right there and dial it back.

Autopilot is a great example.

Let's say you're pushing a student and they're hand flying and they're this, that, or whatever.

And you see that they're at the saturation point.

Okay, take control of the airplane and engage the autopilot.

Take.

Dial it back one notch.

Same situation.

But you just took the room called flying the airplane and you put a manager in there.

Yeah, you know, like that, that's, that's fixed now.

But what instrument candidates or applicants or people working on their instrument rating will realize and what CFIs who don't already understand this will realize is that the saturation point is a muscle like it is.

You'll notice that it's like maxing in weight.

You can, you know, what saturated you 2 months ago is no longer saturating you, and you are now able to handle that much more and that much more and that much more.

And, you know, it's not just flying.

I'm sure this goes on in life.

I mean, I've heard people say, like, can you imagine somebody?

You know, just think of any billionaire person you could think of, like an Elon Musk or something.

How much he has to do in a day versus how much I have to do in a day.

And he wasn't born that way.

That's like the saturation muscle that's just getting better and better and better and better and better until you're like, what Jeff Bezos has in 1.9 million employees or something, you know?

Yeah.

And so flying and flying on instruments is like, that.

You can get really good.

So.

Yeah, I totally agree.

I mean, I'm just thinking back when you were saying all the stuff I was thinking about to my experience with instrument flying, and there's definitely a moment, and you really have to count on your instructor to kind of.

I feel I think it's best for your instructor to ease you into it.

Right.

Not just throw you to the wolves, because then you're like, all right, screw that.

I'm not doing that.

But figuring out where your saturation point is and your breaking point of where you just shut down and, like you said, like, the house falls down and crumbles.

Like, you can't do simple math.

You can't turn.

You can't say luck.

You're just done.

Until we can figure out, all right, what do we need to do?

Just fly the airplane, and then we'll focus on that and then go from there.

Um, which, by the way, is the most important thing for you to ever do is just make sure you're always flying the airplane.

Uh, you can worry about headings out.

Just fly the airplane.

Um, but it's the breathing part.

Yeah, I know, right?

Yeah.

Maybe breathe through that helps as well.

But there's definitely a break point for everyone.

And it happened just because, you know, you and your buddies start at the same time.

Just because they can do more than you at a certain point doesn't mean that you're a bad pilot.

Doesn't mean that you can't get it.

There's this point in instrument flying, which I can't really explain why, but it's essentially you're just hitting your head against the wall until you break through.

That's going to happen at someone for 20 hours of instrument flying.

It's going to happen for 40 hours for someone.

It's just however your brain can kind of conceptualize and put the big picture together.

It was all Steps.

For me, it was learning, like you said, like the verbiage, learning what everything meant on the charts, learning how to talk on the radio.

And then toward the end, it was learning how to put everything together and be like, all right, this is why I'm holding.

This is why I'm turning this one.

Listening to two planes ahead of you or the plane ahead of you.

Be like, all right, well, they're getting vectored on in the approach.

I can expect this vector as well.

Or they're holding, so I can expect this hold.

Kind of understanding the why behind instrument flying and the why the controllers are doing what they're doing.

Uh, so it's definitely.

It's definitely gonna take steps, it's definitely gonna take time, and eventually you're gonna break through.

Uh, it might take you a while.

That's fine.

There are plenty of people that I know that it probably took them a long time, and they're flying for the airlines.

So you're good, man.

You're good.

Or girl, whatever.

Yeah, yeah, you will get there.

Um, I like.

You know, this is like, I have.

I have.

How do I say this?

My instrument program is, I believe, radically different from all others.

And I realized, like, the way you described it, by the way, and I think you're absolutely right, that as you go through, you get that the finer points, the kind of awareness of the.

Whys, context and all that.

But the way you described the training is the way most people do it, right?

Where you're like, okay, you learn to fly the plane, then you learn to work the radios, then you learn to fly the courses, then you learn to fly the ils.

I don't do it that way, so we don't do it that way.

And in the ground school app, if you go to the instrument course, you'll see the way we do it.

And I think, for example, so what I do is I use what I call template flights.

And so if you and I were working on your instrument rating, the first template flight might be San Carlos to Stockton, specifically along airways.

So we will request the airways.

So we'll go Santa, you know, San Carlos radar vectors, Oakland, Victor 6, Altam intersection, then direct, maybe.

Who knows?

I don't know if that's the exact right route, something like that.

But we're going to repeat, we're going to fly that flight on your very first day when you come as your intro flight, we're going to fly it in the system with all equipment working, autopilot on.

And just so you can see the context of Everything.

Getting a clearance, waiting for release, taking off, seeing the whole thing point to point.

That'd be the first time we fly the template flight.

Then we might take two or three days to go out and build some skills.

Okay.

You're going to have to learn how to fly the plane.

You're going to have to learn how to navigate the radios and all these things.

But then before too many days, we go back to that very first flight.

Only now you're flying it maybe, and I'm, you know, flying still autopilot, still everything.

And we plug the skills back into that same flight and we'll keep revisiting that, just that one flight, until you can understand what it feels like in your body to be ahead of the airplane, to be thinking and talking ahead of the airplane.

Right.

And only then will we take what we've learned and move it to template flight two.

Okay, now let's see what this looks like.

If it ends at a non precision approach and, you know, or a non towered airport or something like that.

And in the course of training, there'll be three, maybe four template flights until we start getting really advanced and then we're going, you know, all over.

You know, you're still, in a way, you're still easing them into it though, right?

Like you're showing them the big picture, but you are.

Maybe not.

Maybe you'll do the radios or maybe they'll fly, but each time you're kind of adding another scale in there, which essentially is, yeah, is still easing them in.

And I think that's like we both talked about is you can't just really, you can, you can throw them to the fire and that Some people might figure it out, but it's definitely a good way to ease them in like that and take some of the burden off of their, their hands so they can just focus on the flying or the learning.

Um, so you're still doing that in a way for that.

Which I really like.

If I was a cfi, that idea sounds great to me.

Cause it is funny how if you just ch as simple as changing the flight plan or as simple as changing an ILS to an RNAV or a VOR approach, like just that one change can mess you up for the whole flight, right?

Like you could take off, everything go fine.

You're like, all right, well, we're going to do the approach you've never done before and probably haven't looked at in a while other than I told you to look at all the approaches last night.

But you're not going to do the vor.

I'm going to be like, what?

And you're just going to think about the vor.

You're going to miss calls.

You're going to do just sloppiness.

Right.

So I think that's, that's definitely the way to do it.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And that's, and it's maybe a subtle distinction.

Cause like you said, you're still easing them in.

But what we're doing is putting the primary instructional focus on the ability to think and talk in front of the airplane.

For example, what I want more than the student understanding the differences between an ILS and a vor.

That's less important to me than the student realizing they're getting a little stressed.

They need to slow the airplane down and they're able to say, okay, when I get to Altam intersection, it's going to be a right turn to a heading of 040.

I'm going to switch my GPS to the navigational signal.

I want.

I verified that.

I identified it.

My flow checks and checklists are done for right now.

I have no time to start and I'll report reaching.

Okay.

When I get there, I will.

So their ability to recognize the big picture, create the time they need to push their mind out in front of the airplane and verbalize it is way more important to me as a fundamental skill.

Like I always say to students, I'm not worried that you're going to be able to hold altitude, hold needles, hold headings, fly approaches.

Zero concern.

I have zero, zero concern that by the end of this instrument rating, you'll be able to do that.

What I'm more concerned about is that you're going to be the kind of pilot who understands the big picture and can think and talk in front of the airplane.

And that has a ritualized procedure based on decades of professional experience that you're going to use to fly this like you're the chief pilot of your own flight op.

You know, like you would hire yourself to fly your kids, you know, to be like a real, like 1 percenter in it.

And so it's subtle.

It's like all the things you said, you are easing them in, but you're orienting it around these scenarios to how does it feel?

Were you able to talk in front of the plane?

Were you able to do all your checklists?

Were you able to.

All those things.

And there's an.

Like you to your point, there's enough variables in the same flight over and over again for people mostly not to get bored.

You know, ATC will try to vector you or they'll have to give you delay things or maybe a hold or like, things will come up.

But it's not like, like, like what you said.

If you switch the approach, which is this is when I noticed that when I was going through instrument rating or instrument training, was that like, for me, it was more like my instructor would say, okay, last week we went to Napa.

We did the localizer.

This week, let's go over here to NAS and I'm going to show you an LNAV approach and then next time.

Okay, well, we did those two already.

So let's go to Santa Rosa.

I want you to see an ils, right?

There was a lot of that.

And it's like if you do that, like you said, there's so many changes going from ILS to VR that this 100% of the students learning energy and all of it will be put into the details.

What's different about this?

Okay, this has this approach or what does this mean?

The timing thing has absolutely nothing to do with those core fundamental skills of staying in front of the airplane that I was talking about and having like a ritualized procedure for checklists and all the things that at the end of the day, I believe are going to keep you safe.

Yeah, you know, we can argue about the, I mean, not argue, but we could not.

You and I, I mean, the student and I, we could talk about the differences between different approaches, like, you know, till we're blue in the face.

That's why I always say to the students, it's like, I'm not worried about that stuff.

Like, at the end of the day, we're going to run through so many different approaches.

We're going to have so many little mini oral sessions and phase checks.

Like, there's no way you're going to get through this without being able to hold altitude and fly approaches.

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Visit RAA.com Pilotopilot that's RAA.com Pilotopilot and now back to today's episode.

How so in the airline world and you know, bigger jet world, what's very important in any approach and what's being taught.

What has been taught is being stabilized, having criteria where you're stabilized at a certain spot, whether it's 500ft, a thousand feet, you need to be in certain parameters.

Now smaller airplanes, you don't have someone to tell on you.

You don't have a chief pilot looking over you.

So it's a lot of the honor system.

When you're flying 172s and you're flying smaller banana or bonanzas or whatever it is you're flying, how important do you or how much emphasis do you put on stabilize approaches in instrument?

Um, cause like you said, there's a lot going on right now.

You might be getting all these kind of, you may be getting all these instructions and all of a sudden you're, you find yourself at the final approach fix and maybe you haven't put your gear down or you're not configured or you're going 15 knots fast.

Um, how like is, is that something you're constantly thinking about in this world?

I know smaller airplanes have the assumption that they can be more forgiving, which I mean obviously you're not going to stop in 6,000ft or to 3,000ft like these bigger jets.

But there is danger, especially when you get into Moonies that just don't want to stop flying that you over on runways that you have incursions and when you, when something bad happens, you want everything going in your favor.

So stabilization is amazing and is huge.

But I kind of long worded that question, but how important is stabilization for you when you're teaching ifr?

It's.

Well, it's certainly not as important as it is in flying heavy jets, you know, and I, and I always want to use a little bit of caution when we like I think for example, how checklists are used as an example of how we've really misunderstood two crew versus single pilot environments.

Right.

We don't use in.

I mean I do, but in general in ga pilots are teaching checklist usage as though there are two pilots there.

Whereas if you go get hired by Pac Valley or Ameriflight or I don't know if Ameriflight does single pilot anymore, but you get hired by somebody that does single pilot.

It's all about flow checks and acronyms and then pick up the checklist because there's no other pilot, there's no pilot monitoring.

Right.

So we have to be careful when we take crew or heavy transport category procedures and bring them down into ga.

A lot of times it's fantastic, but we do have to use caution.

So with stabilization, for example, being stabilized is a just more critical for an aircraft with a lower thrust to weight ratio.

I can arrest a thousand foot per minute descent in about 3 seconds in assess time.

That's just a reality.

That's just a truth.

But if you're coming down in a big heavy jet at 1,000ft per minute, you're not going to stop that in three seconds.

It's going to be six or seven seconds before power even hits the engines.

So you're just in a situation where stabilization in the ways you're talking about it matters more.

For example, this comes up a lot of times when people ask me, hey, do you put flaps down outside the final approach fix?

And it's kind of a trick question.

In most light airplanes, I do not.

And my logic is, how often are you out there flying 5 mile finals with 10 degrees of flaps?

Like that's a very unusual situation.

Why would you put yourself in an unusual situation when you can't see out the window?

Like, why would you not fly the plane?

In a way you always fly the plane.

And a lot of the things you're talking about with the Mooney, this is another buffer that we have that you guys do not have at all.

Like in a heavy jet, when you're coming in at 130, 40 knots or whatever, you guys approach at 120 maybe sometimes.

Or what do you approach at 130?

The 737 is fast.

So the 737, it's like 149 to 150 something.

The latitude was like 100 to 110, right?

Your whole world is more critical.

So not only are you not able to arrest descents if they're not stabilized as rapidly and just have to be that much further in front of the airplane.

If you don't hit the touchdown zone of the Runway, you got a problem.

And you've got a short window of time to figure out that that's true.

In a light airplane, even a Mooney, some of that is like we have consider that we have a huge buffer.

For example, if the weather is low enough to require us actually flying down to say 200ft above the ground, then it's an ILS and we have 5,000ft of Runway in front of us.

You have to be pretty off on your speed to blow 5,000ft or more of Runway.

And Even in a Mooney.

But you'd have to be 20 knots fast or.

I mean, I don't even know.

I do remember one time flying into McCarran in a DA20 where I had 737s behind me.

So I flew the approach at 120, I think, or 130, and then just pulled power to idle over the threshold.

And it took me the full length of the Runway, which was like 8, 000ft, to actually slow down and land.

I don't know if I saved anybody time.

But my point is there's a huge buffer.

Those are two completely different worlds just before we even really start talking about it, right?

Two different worlds.

So when it comes to flaps outside the final approach fix, like I said, if I'm in a 172, I do not do that.

I fly in at 90 knots in a clean configuration because that's the most familiar and comfortable and normal configuration.

And there's no world in which I'm not going to see that Runway, be able to go power idle, add my flaps and land if I need the flaps.

That's how I've always done it.

That's how I do it.

The alternative to that, the quote stabilized version, would be to set the 10 degrees of flaps at the final approach fix, figure out some power settings.

So now you're in this somewhat unique configuration that you only use when flying final approach fix inbound, you know, on an instrument approach, and then you'll be able to come down.

Now you're still probably going to add more flaps if you see the Runway.

I mean, I don't know if the assumption is you land with 10, you don't ever change flaps after that.

But there are people that are trying to take the heavy transport world and the, the things that you're saying are really, really important there and bring them down into ga.

And my point is just we have to use caution.

Like sometimes it's not necessary.

Now if it's a high performance plane, a Bonanza, a Mooney, a Cirrus, something like that, I do add flaps outside the final approach fix, just the first notch.

So there you go.

I flew may not have rhyme or reason and I think the only value I could add there is just to have people use caution.

Yeah.

The other one really quickly is the thousand foot per minute descent which I feel is completely stabilized in a, in a light aircraft.

So my students all can fly 90 knots and 500ft per minute or a separate non precision approach descent of 90 knots and a thousand feet per minute.

But again, in assassin, you can arrest a thousand foot per minute descent just by power into the green, and it's.

It's over.

Yeah.

Uh, this is a comment about putting flaps in.

Well, before the final approach fix, I was fine with Josh from Aviation 101.

We flew to Garmin headquarters from Dallas.

Uh, hopefully the video's out by the time this comes out.

But I.

In my mind, I was, like, thinking, how do I fly this when I fly jet?

It's like, all right, well, we're putting flaps out, like, on downwind, on base, or put another notch.

We're fully configured gear flaps full.

And it's.

And I was like, I forgot how long things take in a 1 72, if that makes sense.

Like, yeah, initial approach adds another 20, 25 minutes to a flight, which is just what was kind of baffling to me.

And I was like, all right, we're still on downwind.

We haven't even turned base yet.

It's been eight minutes.

Welcome to my world.

Yeah.

It's like, wow, this takes forever.

It's like I wasted.

Wasted a ton of money on my instrument training by just shooting approaches all the time.

Right.

But anyways, this is a great dovetail.

What you just said is reminded me, because that's how pilots in Europe are taught, and it drives me crazy.

So I'll have these guys come over from Switzerland or France or Germany, and they want to fly with me to improve their VFR skills.

Right.

They think I'm a cowboy because they're all taught to fly 172s.

Like you just said, it'll be like.

And they say it like airline pilots.

They'll be like, at the abeam position, they'll be a flaps one, you know, and then.

Then we go out, you know, four miles out, and we turn, and it's flaps two, and everything's set.

And Richard would have pulled my power to idle and said, you just lost your engine over East Oakland.

Where are you going?

You know what I mean?

So back to that ostrich approach.

The real issue in a Cessna is, do I have enough altitude to glide to the Runway?

Which is a totally different issue than you have when you're out there flying in your 737.

You're not worried about where you're going to go if your engine fails.

So you're flying these, you know, you're putting flaps in on the downwind or whatever.

But it drives me bananas when I fly with, like, instrument European pilots that fly small airplanes that way.

Yeah.

I'm saying where are you going to go if your engine fails?

Like Oakland is back there.

Yeah, like four miles now back there you could have gone power to idle and glided around in a short approach, you know.

So that's an example of where a big transport category procedure would be the wrong thing to do in a light airplane.

Yeah, for sure.

And I think more Europeans are taught to fly every plane like an airliner because I think obviously their, their kind of mold is, you know, at 250 hours you can go through a cadet program and be flying right seat in a 737.

So they're just teaching you to fly an airliner.

But just the concepts.

You start in a 7,172.

Moving on a little bit from that.

What do you see are big kind of threats or are big stumping grounds for instrument students?

Well, I think there's a lot of instrument students that never actually learn how to fly instruments, unfortunately.

I think there's a lot of people that get instrument rated that don't feel comfortable flying in the clouds, that don't ever fly in the clouds.

I hear stories of double eyes instrument instructors that say they don't feel comfortable flying in clouds.

So there's that.

You know, I think there's a lot of people that figure I'm going to get my instrument rating, I'm going to get my commercial, I'm going to get my CFI and get hired and I'll fly in the cloud soon enough, but I'm going to do it in an airliner with a captain next to me.

And that's like where they get their first imc, you know, or in their first job.

Yeah, so that's a real hazard, you know, because I mean, it's not a hazard, I guess, if you're never going to fly instruments in a light airplane.

But it would be a hazard if you're a person who wants to fly instruments in a light airplane and you meet that flight instructor and that's like, you know, and you don't know it.

So.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And then I.

Sorry, go ahead.

I was a hundred percent agree.

I mean, going straight into flying single pilot IFR is much different than doing simulated instrument and simulated approaches with the foggles.

You still have some sort of idea of where you are.

Like your body can tell a little bit if you're straight and level.

If you're turning, you know, you can still see the ground.

Right.

You can still see out of the small corner of your eye, but IFR and then you start adding thunderstorms.

You start adding icing and your brain, you're constantly moving and your equilibrium's getting all off.

It's like having the actual versus simulated instrument flying is huge.

Especially if you want to be an airline pilot and especially if you ever think you'd be flying an approach.

You know, it's like you don't want to have your first time flying actual instruments when you actually need it.

If that makes sense.

Right?

Yeah.

No, 100%.

And I think, you know, like, if people wanted to see, just check out what we put in the flight side of our instrument course.

I think really what we want to emulate is like we said earlier, single pilot, professional operators.

That's who.

If we in ga, if we want to aspire to be anybody, it's those amazing short haul cargo pilots where they've got one pilot in the plane.

You don't ever hear about them because they never get in accidents.

They're up four in the morning.

Right.

And they're out, you know.

Right.

Like the procedures that they use.

If I had to give something to the instrument folks that are going through it right now, I think take that template idea is really the most valuable, valuable thing I can add.

Get, get your instructor to stop forcing you to shoot pool while the balls are still moving.

You know, like settle it all down by repeating the same flight, going out and like you said, Justin, you know, slowly walking into the skills, but then go back to the same thing you've seen so that you can actually measure.

Did the work you did on the skills, did it, did it really do anything?

I think that's a big thing.

And then seeking out imc, like even vacations.

I, I've always thought about doing, you know, how we run those airplane camp trips.

That's where we started the call.

I always thought a great one would be like living the life of a freight dog for a weekend.

You know, come to California in August and we'll get up at 4 in the morning and we'll just be IMC all day on the coast.

You know, we'll go from Lake Santa Barbara to Eureka and just fly approach after approach.

Don't invite me to that aviation camp.

I don't want to come to that one.

You don't?

I've already done that.

I don't need to do that again.

I want the one where Catalina.

I want the one where we're going to Napa, you know, we're stopping at Wineries, you know, I want the fun part, which fun might not be the right term because you would think that was fun because you haven't done that before.

But I have done that enough.

I'm good.

Good.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I get to do it all, all the time.

Maybe not at 4 in the morning, but, you know, lesson signs of 0600.

But I just happen to think, I think.

My point is, I think that here where I live, and I'm up in the mountains now, but the Bay Area is right there and it's some of the best instrument training in the world, really.

There are probably parts of like Israel, Lebanon, Turkey that get the same effect off the, off the east side of the Mediterranean, maybe parts of Spain.

But like, there aren't that many places that get the.

This deep, thick advection fog and it's, you know, bases at sometimes 200ft and a quarter mile is tops at 5,000ft.

No wind, no ice, no thunderstorms, no nothing.

Just a blanket of fog.

Yeah.

And you know, you can go experience that and get your ticket wet and make it a vacation.

Yeah.

Come out, stay for a weekend.

And yeah, I'm not the only guy either.

I mean, I think honestly, if anybody who's listening to this is interested in doing that, that just call any of the flight schools in Palo Alto or San Carlos and they'll get you up there making an IFR vacation.

Now, all those instructors are comfortable with it.

You have to be or you can't teach them.

Yeah.

And then you have complex airspace to throw into that with San Francisco, with Oakland, with all the deltas in the area.

So, yeah, it's definitely a little bit interesting out there, that's for sure.

Yeah, I mean, it's good for that.

It's not good for understanding other weather.

So I always like, worry about my students when they tell me they're going back to fly in Virginia or something in the summer, I'm like, okay, let's talk again about thunderstorms just one more time.

Yeah, there's a difference between, between shooting a minimum to an approach to minimums in fog that's relatively smooth and calm.

Then thunderstorms are down drafts and updrafts and crosswinds.

Right.

Oh, yeah.

It's like.

No, you get spoiled.

It's a.

I call it a playground.

I mean, it's not to say that you can't get in trouble.

Yeah, you, you can.

But as far as IFR IFR goes, it's benign.

It's what we would call light ifr.

I love that.

You know, even if it's at minimum, it's like, you know, I Don't know.

Yeah, it's not hard IFR for sure.

That's good to know.

Yeah.

But it'd be incredible practice.

Just the ability to fly the approach all the way to minimums and then execute the mist and still be in the soup and.

Yeah.

And I'm guessing icing is not necessarily something you have to worry about constantly where you are now, the higher you go, obviously.

But, I mean, in the wintertime in North Carolina, I remember when I was doing my training was about 3,000ft was where the icing level seemed to live.

3 to 4,000ft.

So you could sneak a flight in there.

Uh, if it went higher, you're good.

But when I did my private pilot training, it seemed like the freezing level is always on the ground in Ohio.

So it was much different up in Ohio than it was in North Carolina.

It gave you the ability to fly more hard.

I.

Hard ifr.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, that's, to be fair, a world I don't know a whole lot about.

I mean, I know that I get away with a lot.

So in terms of my own personal minimums, I don't fly IFR when the freezing levels are at or below the mea.

But partially that's because I fly in California, you know, I mean, I know.

I think I said that to flight shops once.

And he's like, well, yeah, but I'm in Toronto, so I'm gonna call a different instructor.

You know, I mean, like, there are folks that understand the.

The way ice works.

Yeah.

In those really cold temperatures, you might be one of them.

It's a world that I don't have to deal with, at least not yet.

And so I just make my minimums easy.

And I fly tons of ifr primarily because of where I live.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Icing sucks, man.

Stay away from it if you can.

So stay where you're at.

Yeah, yeah.

Once I.

I think it was Mac McClellan from Flying Magazine.

He used to write the business, or maybe he still writes the business column.

I don't know.

Anyway, he once said that he thought fiki was just silly for any airplane.

Like, he thought no airplane, zero.

He's.

And he flew golf streams and all sorts of things.

He said, like no airplane should be approved for flight into known icing.

He said, I don't care what airplane I'm in.

When I start to ice up, I look for a way to get out, you know?

So, yeah, it's cute.

I mean, sometimes you gotta go in and lay it.

I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, this is different than talking a 172 or whatever it is.

But, you know, a lot of these routes are, you're going off to Buffalo and people want to get in and the plane's capable of knocking off ice.

So why aren't you gonna go?

You know, it's kind of, obviously there's, there's levels to it.

If it's too bad you don't go, you go around, you go somewhere else.

So there's definitely a safety factor there.

But, but I mean, you're picking up some ice and planes like you said, Fiki flying in and icing, it's good to go.

You got a hot wing for a reason.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's true.

And in an airliner, hey, that's a whole different animal.

Yeah.

Like, by the way, when I say I don't fly in freezing levels at or below the meas, that's an aircraft without deicing equipment.

Yeah, yeah, deicing equipment.

That minimum is not.

Yeah, but I think, you know, we have to use caution in a plane like a cirrus, for example, which is technically feaky.

But when trouble pretty fast.

One of the last questions I'll ask.

We can.

Don't want to keep you too long with this.

I don't want it to be like a two hour episode.

But when you talk about going to the IFR checkride, talk about, obviously we had the written knocked out.

We talked about that.

It's important.

Knocked the written out early on.

Use the ground school app.

Use whatever you need to do to get it done.

Mock oral, check rides.

Everything is in there.

But talk about.

I guess I'll say it this way.

My very first check ride, I was not prepared for ifr.

I actually feared my failed my IFR check ride.

Uh, I didn't prepare well enough.

I just trusted my cfi.

It was kind of like, all right, let's go, let's go, let's go.

And I was like, all right, cool.

Let's go, let's go, let's go.

And then I got there and it was just like a disaster.

Uh, then it didn't feel ready for the check ride.

Just took it anyways.

But I.

How do you go into the IFR check ride?

Do you think it's easier knowing that you know how check rides work from the ppl check ride?

Do you think it's just a whole different beast?

Because it's like a different language.

It's kind of a whole different beast.

You know, the mistakes, like at the end of the day that I see A lot of pilots make silly things like not like, like they get rushed or they'll be flying around with, with hsis that aren't tuned to any nav signal.

Yeah, they enter a hold maybe the wrong way just like they get tired.

So like, like I do a bit of coaching with instrument students going into the checkride.

I always tell em to bring a Snickers, it's a long checkride.

Or bring some like blood sugar boost, whatever, you know, picks you up a little bit.

Some piles.

Coffee.

Yeah, yeah, like iced coffee or soda or something like that.

Cause there's going to come a point where you're tired.

The main thing that will save your life under IFR is the ability to slow the airplane down to recognize.

I mean on the checkride thread, to recognize when you're getting pushed.

One of the tricks that I always do to my students and I know there are examiners out there that do it when things are going well, we'll fly an approach, we'll miss the approach.

And I'll say I know they're not ready.

Like I know they're not ready.

They haven't even quite got to the missed approach hold yet or something like that.

And I'll say, okay, you ready for the next one?

You know, I'd like to just like nudge them along and see if they go, yeah, yeah, I'm like I'm ready for the next one or whatever.

What they really need to say to me is no, like standby, I need a second.

Yeah, like once they're able to say that to me and to air traffic control and understand they need to kind of slow down and create space for themselves.

I feel a whole lot better about the checkride, that ability to sort of recognize when that's happening, create the space you need to stay in front of the airplane.

When the examiner sees that there's going to be something that flips in their brain, they're looking for that.

Yeah, they want to see that, you know, that you can handle that.

Yeah, they want to see how you handle adversity.

Every instrument check ride is going to have come to a point where they're going to push you.

Any good examiner, at least they're going to push you to, to the point where they want to see how you handle it and they want to see if you overcome it and if you just breeze right through it.

And if you don't breeze right through it, they want to see how you react.

Right.

They want to see if you slow the airplane down, if you take a little Bit of time.

If you ask for vectors off the approach to kind of go hold and figure it out, do it again.

Those are all good answers.

The bad answer is just blowing down the ils, just happy, dumb and just smiling and having no idea what's going on.

You know, if you find yourself in a checkride and you think it's too easy, it's probably because you're missing something, right?

Yeah, 100%.

And for CFIs who are listening to this, the way I would walk into what I just said to test your student is, you know, you have to do three approaches.

So after the second approach before you think your student is fully ready, like they haven't briefed that approach yet would be a great indicator.

They haven't pulled out the plate and briefed it yet.

Just say to them when able, tell air traffic control you'd like the localizer Runway three at Hayward next.

Or whatever air traffic control.

Air traffic control will do all the work after that.

If your student keys the mic and says to air traffic control, hey, we want the whatever approach it is next.

Air traffic control immediately is going to say, okay, I advise when you have the ATIS, turn left heading 030.

Let me know when you have the one minute weather.

Whatever they start saying to you, they're going to take you off the task you were on.

Now, your students should recognize this as a.

Holy cow, my instructor, I just called this person.

I'm overwhelmed.

You know, the instructor introduced this.

Your student should say like, either tell you, no, I'm not going to call them right now, or when ATC comes back, say, actually I'm not ready for that approach yet.

I'd like some delay vectors while I get, you know, prepared.

ATC would be fine with that.

They'd go, okay, roger, turn left, whatever, 090, I'll give you some delay vectors.

If your instructor or examiner saw you do that, like a big box is checked, okay, this guy did not get pushed into rushing.

Did not get pushed into something you.

Couldn'T do for sure.

That's key.

So yeah.

And then scientific method.

So one of the things that people will see in the app is whenever I talk about flying, it's like everything's a hypothesis until we can prove it's true.

So like a holding pattern, for example, if you think it's going to be a parallel entry, prove it.

And there's this little methods we can do to prove that you have the right entry.

And then, then you can talk in front of the airplane.

If you can verify if you can guess at it, it prove it, and then say, okay, when I get to that fix, here's the five things I'm going to do.

You're kind of bulletproof.

Yeah, one thing I'll say I'm so thankful for flying more advanced fmss.

When I was doing management training, I was on a standard six pack with maybe a 430.

But having, you know, G1000s, now having the Garmin G5000 that I flew at the.

At NetJets on the latitude, having the plane know exactly how to enter hold, it's life changing, right?

Like, obviously you need to know what comes next as well and be prepared if that doesn't work.

But, you know, learning how to do holds is pretty hard for me.

I had to, like, take myself out of the airplane, think about where I was.

Some people are like, doing this to everything.

It's like just learning how to do that can be kind of difficult.

Once you get it, it's like, wow, why did I ever struggle with that?

But I actually think I watched one of your videos when I was like 21, trying to figure out how to do whole.

So thank you for that.

I think I got.

We have a great system, and first you visualize it on your HSI and you use your thumb to check it.

Yeah, it's funny, my.

On my instrument check ride, it was going fantastically well.

And the guy that I was with was an old Corsair instructor legend, Blue fields.

He was 89 years old or something like that.

I think when I was doing my check ride, you know, really, I'm very lucky to have known him at all.

Yeah, and it was a tough checkride, man.

Like, I mean, it was tough.

The oral was tough.

Everything was tough.

Everything about Lou was tough.

Just by nature.

I mean, it's just like one of these old army guys, guys, Navy guys, really.

But he must have thought I was doing a good job.

He must have wanted me to pass because when it came time to enter holds, I was about to turn the wrong way.

Like, we got to the fix and I was about to turn the wrong way.

I can say this now because Lou's not alive anymore.

And I went to turn and the yoke wouldn't turn.

Like it just wouldn't go the way I wanted it to go.

And I look over at Lou and I could see his finger, his thumb and his index finger just holding it down.

He didn't look at me, he just looks straight ahead.

But he blocked me from turning the wrong way.

Saved my butt on the checkride that's awesome.

Shout out to him.

Yeah, shout out to Lou.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, some examiners know, you know, like, they're like, all right, this dude's got it.

Like, this is clearly like a fatigue mistake or something like that.

And, I mean, there are some that won't let any mistakes go.

You know, they're like, oh, sorry, dude, you failed.

But there are definitely some out there that are like, ah, I got you, dude.

And you're like, I know.

This was older.

This was.

I don't know if that would fly today.

I mean, this was.

Was.

What was my rating?

1999?

2000, maybe.

Yeah, boy.

Anyway, kind of a different world.

Definitely a different world.

But, Jason, I appreciate you coming on.

As always.

I appreciate just talking to you and like I said, we just literally just start talking and feel like we just.

We'll leave it in, like I said, but just talking.

Great information.

So I appreciate coming on.

We'll complete the series eventually, but we'll do commercial pilot next whenever we have the chance.

I know.

Our schedules are so crazy for that one.

Let's go.

Let's do it.

Thank you.

Thank you, Justin.

I appreciate being here.

So thank you for coming.

Anytime.

If we want the Ground school app, tell them where to go and how to get it.

Well, I mean, LearnTheFinderPoints.com is a place you can go.

I think your viewers have a code, right?

They do.

10% off.

I'll put that down below as well.

Yeah, I think it's like.

Anyway.

Yeah, if it's in the description.

Or email us to get that discount.

Yeah, I think it's code Justin.

Or the app Store.

Yeah, yeah.

Learn the finer points of the app store and use code Justin, which I'm pretty sure.

Or pilot to pilot.

We'll find out.

Yeah, but look at the description.

That's where you can find it the best.

Yeah, I should probably.

I should look at that before I said that.

But, you know, it is what it is.

Got a little podcast.

That's all right.

Yeah, I think it's Justin.

Yeah, let's go with that.

But yeah, man, I appreciate your time and I appreciate your knowledge.

It's just a lot of fun talking to all the time times.

And if everyone wants any other questions, we can always do a part two.

So send a question either to me.

My email is justinilotepilothq.com or reach out to Jason.

And I'm sure you guys know how to reach out to him.

So thank you so much for your time and we'll see you later.

Okay.

Awesome.

Justin.

Thanks.

Cool man.

Thanks.

AV Nation.

That's a wrap on today's episode.

Thank you so much for listening to the podcast.

I hope you enjoyed it.

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To get more aviators to find more people in aviation.

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But AV Nation, I hope you're having a great day.

And as always, always happy flying Pilot.

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