Welcome to Barnyard Language.

We are Katie and Arlene, an Iowa sheep farmer, and an Ontario dairy

farmer with six kids, two husbands, and a whole lot of chaos between us.

So kick off your boots, reheat your coffee, and join us

for some barnyard language.

Honest.

Talk about running farms and raising families.

In case your kids haven't already learned all the swears from being in the barn,

it might be a good idea to put on some headphones or turn down the volume.

While many of our guests are professionals, they

aren't your professionals.

If you need personalized advice, consult your people.

Welcome to another episode of Barnyard Language.

Thank you for joining us again today.

So Katie tried to go home, so I was about to ask her how things are

in Iowa, but I know she's not in Iowa cuz she didn't get there yet.

So, Katie, how are things in Minnesota?

I was like 80% successful in getting home.

Um, honestly, I was more concerned that I was gonna get stuck in Toronto and

be stuck in a foreign country, which, I mean, Canada's not like foreign,

foreign.

It's more than getting stuck in an airport.

Doesn't really matter where the airport is.

So much . Just the fact that you're in an airport.

Yeah.

And a place where you can't even buy guns in the Walmart, . Like,

how are we supposed to live like

this?

You know?

It's one of our cultural experiences.

What Katie was visiting was going to Walmart, so, uh, yeah.

That gives you an idea of how much culture she saw while she was here.

We didn't even like see the parliament buildings or anything.

So next time, next time.

I met a lot of Canadians.

They were all very nice.

I spent a lot of time with Arlene and her family.

They were all very nice.

Um, I got a Lego tour from some of her kids.

I threw the ball a lot for Levi?

The Jack Russell.

Yes.

With the

tickety, tickety toes.

Yeah.

Don't pet him, but just keep throwing that

ball.

Don't pet him.

Throw the ball.

Um, I got to spend time with Arlene's, extended family and

friends and that was lovely.

Met my first Barnyard language podcast Fans in the Wild.

Gonna have to start carrying a Sharpie, you know, in case

anybody wants an autograph.

Nobody does.

But you know, they might, in case they might, you never know.

Offered.

Um, had a great trip.

But for anyone not in the us there is a massive storm system sitting kind

of, I think maybe across the entire country and maybe most of Canada.

I haven't been watching the weather because it's not

gonna make any difference.

North

America's pretty big, so I wouldn't say most of the country,

but localized over you and me.

. They could be separate storm systems.

Yeah, I have not

yet, but, but also California is apparently getting like freak flooding

and anyway, so I flew home Tuesday night and of course the Minneapolis

airport is a little over three hours drive from the farm, but the entire

area between the airport and the farm was forecast to get somewhere between

three and 20 some inches of snow.

Uh, sometime between Tuesday and Friday.

So it started snowing just before we touch down.

And I have since Tuesday evening, been in the Marriott Residence

Inn in Bloomington, Minnesota.

It's um, actually pretty nice, you know, full kitchen,

bathroom, tv, whatever, getting

some nice folks, getting some uninterrupted work.

Don, I'm guessing.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

A lot of reading.

And I asked one of my coworkers this morning, you know, because we've,

I've been working whether they thought that I could expense the hotel as a

coworking space because the lobby is entirely full of stranded passengers

with their laptops out working.

Yeah.

So I've met some lovely folks, um, who are stuck here from Denver

and Florida and are, you know, relaxing in the Marriott lobby.

The employees have been delightful.

Um, and I got the world's cutest salt and pepper shakers, . Cause

they're in the room and they're, they're like half an inch tall.

I don't know why it's killing me so much to have these, I

mean, it's not like packets.

They're like straight up salt and pepper shakers.

They're just

tight.

You're taking those things home.

Are you?

I.

I am.

And I'm gonna ask for a second set, , because anybody who has more

than one child close in age knows that even if the other child does

not give a rat's ass about whatever the thing is, you better not just

bring one home because there will be

blood sugar.

That's true.

And I don't think you actually did any shopping for your

children while you were in Canada.

So I mean, you could claim even that they were, uh, the Canadian souvenirs.

I could.

Um, I will say that I bought one final Tim Horton's Boston Cream donut

in the Toronto airport because we do not have Tim Horton's in Iowa yet.

And Boston Cream Donut shoved into a, a carryon bag and then hauled through two

airports and forgotten about for 24 hours.

How did that taste?

It was better than no donut, but not by much.

It was pretty, it's pretty sad.

Um, it's no longer in a donut form, so how.

Yeah.

And all the frosting had leaked off and the outside was stale

and the inside was weird , but it was better than no donut that.

So anyway, uh, how are things on the farm, Arlene?

Oh, thanks.

Quiet without me.

Yes.

Following you

around and, yeah.

Quiet.

Um, the youngest had to move back into his own room, so he was not, not all

that excited, but his brothers were happy to, uh, move him back out again.

So that was a, a transition.

So Monday was family day, and today we have a snowstorm, so another snow day.

So another very short week in terms of of school.

But yeah, not much of an update.

I guess since last week.

The classifier we're recording on Thursday, the classifiers here today.

So for non-dairy farming folks or people who don't have registered

cattle, um, that means this person is a employee of Holstein Canada.

And, um, They come and basically give our cows a mark so

they get graded essentially.

And, uh, so we're hoping for some high marks today.

Um, my husband actually set up, we have enough, um, passionate staff

and family members that they, they set up a little, um, poll I guess, or

maybe it's more of a bedding system.

I'm not exactly sure.

But anyway, people were putting down their guesses as to what the classifier

was going to give certain cows.

So, so not only will we get to see what the classifier does, but

we'll get to see who wins in terms of, uh, who has the closest guest,

what the classifier does today.

So, I'll let you know, uh, Katie who had the, uh, the closest marks on

what the classifier was going to do.

I, I told my husband this morning that he was gonna have to tell her not to

take bribes for, I mean, not that she would, but, you know, not necessarily

that we wanted the highest, uh, classification, but that certain people

might be lobbying for very specific point values on, on certain animals.

So that's kind of the update.

So that requires a little bit of extra cleanup.

Uh, there was some clipping going on just to make sure tails and utters were a

little bit cleaner and neater than normal.

And yeah, I guess that's it.

Report cards came in this week, so, you know, that leads to some discussions

based on, uh, how things are going.

And I think that's, I don't know.

Katie, what, do you have any updates from my house?

I can't remember.

I will say, Katie, my kids have gotten much chattier since you left.

I didn't realize that they were, they had gone almost mute.

Um, but all of a sudden they're talking again.

So clearly our presence meant that they, uh, they stopped talking.

Your daughter was a delight.

I don't think the boys managed to speak more than two sentences

each day in the time I was there.

Yeah.

Like, you know, like I remember as a kid, it's awkward when your

parents have people over and especially someone you don't know.

And especially when they just like, stay at your house.

Yeah.

Take your room.

Um, yeah.

Take your room and make you deal with your little brother

and Yeah.

I will say that I, especially my youngest, I feel like I've said it

before, he's a bit of a covid kid.

Um, if he never had to leave the house, he would be perfectly happy.

So I think that having.

, you know, almost two years worth of no activities.

Limited school, you know, being really quite sheltered here.

A lot of things were locked down for a long time between the ages, you know, for

him, between the ages of five and seven.

It's definitely impacted how he interacts with the world.

So that's something that we're gonna have to work on.

It's in my head anyway, so we'll see what happens there.

Maybe he's just an introvert like me, who knows.

Yeah.

As an adult who happily celebrated, made his birthday by leaving

it introverted clock, which for anyone who seen the videos was

before the Garth Brooks serenade.

Um, I, I totally get not wanting to talk to people, , and especially not

strangers who show up at my house.

So, you know, um, for our listeners, Arlene, reasonably asked me not to take a

photo, but I'm gonna set up my own once I get home, and I will take a photo of that.

But she has a genius idea for all that random shit that accumulates everywhere.

The little, little things, you know, she has one of those What, like

a, like a plastic five drawer bin?

Yeah.

I don't know, like a Rubbermaid or whatever.

Those, those like craft drawers or the Yeah, yeah.

Like a disposable set of drawers.

Kind of.

Not disposable, but Yeah.

Plastic.

Yeah.

And each of the kids, although in our family it will be the kids plus the adults

because we have fewer kids and more adults and more little crap, I would guess.

Um, has a labeled drawer for their little crap.

And I love this idea because a lot of times I don't want to put stuff away.

It's, you know, it's a two inch tall doll that my child is going

to demand the minute they get home.

But I don't want them all living.

In the middle of my dining room table or on the kitchen counters

or in the bathroom, which seems to be where everything accumulates.

So I'm loving the idea of just giving everyone one space where

other random shake can be found.

And then when someone says, where's my insert item?

You can just say, check your drawer.

And hopefully it's there.

Yeah,

because it's easy to pick up the big toys and the big shit, but when

it's like a magazine for my husband,

yeah, that, that little handful of screws or bolts or whatever

that gets dropped on the table

And you, I'm sure there's a, an intention for it, but I don't know

what it is or where it should end up.

Well, and the girl child makes a lot of art at daycare, which is awesome.

But like two weeks ago she cut out a paper hamster, which is

fine, and then she cut out.

A very large amount of what amounted to confetti as hamster food and like

a little hamster blanket and then a little cat, and then some cat food.

And so she comes home with what I finally tossed into a court baggie.

And it was almost a quart baggies worth of tiny pieces of paper that

cannot be disposed of, which is, is totally fine, but that come

home loose and just get dumped out.

Yeah.

Don't move them.

And yeah, you know, I've got two little kids and five cats and two dogs.

Like tiny pieces of paper is never gonna work in our house.

Yeah, that's right.

So I'm loving the bin idea.

Also, Arlene, the Women's Food and Ag Network is accepting

mentor and mentee applications.

Um, I believe still primarily in Iowa and Ohio, but I know that they have had.

Participants from West Virginia and pending funding other places, um, for

their harvesting Our potential program, which sets experienced producers up with

newer producers or experienced farmers who are looking to grow and learn, which

is exactly how this podcast got started.

Um, they are looking for applicants for this year's Harvesting Our Potential Pool.

And the website is, I lost it, wfa.org.

So that's w F as in Frank, A as in airer, N as in Nigerian, dwarf goat dot.

. All right, so we are going to move

is one of Katie's like, send out an email and see what happens.

And you know what, when you have a podcast, sometimes you send out an email,

ask someone who you admire to come on to your show, and they just say yes, which

is like the wildest thing, but one of the best parts about, uh, having a podcast.

So hope you enjoy this interview.

Today we are talking to Dr.

John Madigan, who's a professor at the University of California Davis.

And Dr.

Madigan.

We start each of our interviews with the same question for all of

our guests, and this is a way to introduce yourself to our listeners.

And we always ask, what are you growing?

So for our farming guests that covers crops and livestock, but it

can also cover families, businesses, careers, all kinds of other stuff.

So we'll ask you the same question.

What are you growing?

Yeah.

Well, thanks for having me.

Uh, I look forward to sharing some information.

So I guess, uh, I'm not doing crops.

I, uh, we have a couple of horses here at the house and, uh, I have a, uh, I'm a,

uh, faculty emeriti from the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine.

And, uh, they gave me the rights to one of the inventions that I have.

So I have a technical rescue company where we design equipment for first responders

to, uh, pull animals out of difficult situations, equine cattle and others.

And, uh, and so we do trainings for that cuz my past experience with,

uh, had a lot of experience with, uh, uh, rescue and emergencies things.

And, uh, then I'm also, uh, uh, revising the, uh, fourth edition of

my manual, Bitcoin Neonatal Medicine.

And, uh, so I have a, uh, lot of activity in the world of, uh, baby

horses and, uh, breeders and foing.

And then, uh, I do a lot with the, uh, with the invention that, uh,

came outta some of our research.

Uh, and I don't mind that they called it the, uh, Madigan squeeze

once I found out it actually worked.

And, uh, so that's a, uh, procedure to, uh, uh, that we work for what's,

uh, what we call dummy fos, and we can talk about that if you want.

And, uh, so I spent a lot of time doing podcasts and explaining stuff, but it's

a way to recreate birth canal pressures, which allows a, uh, calf that doesn't know

its mother or a fo that's wandering around the stall, or a lamb, a pig, a crea.

And it's very similar to kangaroo mother care, where there's a dramatic increase

in survival with the swaddling and we use the, uh, the squeezing thing.

It's, uh, so I can talk more about that, but that's, uh, that's occupying a lot

of my activities and growing, I guess.

Yeah,

that's right.

That does sound a lot of di like a lot of different things are growing.

So I'm guessing that the horse people always want to know how many horses

and what are you doing with them, the ones that you actually, uh,

come on site?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right now we just have two here and, uh, uh, so right now we're just doing,

uh, trail riding and then we go to some ranch friends and move some cows

around, uh, once in a while just for fun.

And, uh, they're quarter horses.

They're very gentle.

They live, uh, a very life of, uh, luxury here.

And, uh, we just build a new barn and, uh, uh, with a little

place to stay and you can see the horses out the window and whatnot.

So, uh, . Yeah.

They and I, and we use the horses to, uh, practice some of our

technical rescue equipment fitting.

So they're, uh, , they go in the stall, whether they eat a cookie,

and, uh, we see how things fit.

The, uh, the, the horses.

Horses, right.

Yeah.

So you're not actually doing rescues, but just making sure

everything, uh, fits on them.

Yeah.

I haven't had to rescue them yet, although we've been in a few pickles,

but I haven't had to use our equipment.

So

how do you deal with the level of cute that is working with baby animals?

Just all the time.

I mean, obviously you see a lot of sick and unhappy babies too, but I

would think that the, the general acute percentage is probably higher than a lot

of Yeah, they're, yeah.

When we, it's easy for us when they're cute, that means they're, for us to feel

like, uh, that that's a pretty cool thing.

They're, they're feeling good, you know, they're looking at you moving around.

So they, they've recovered and, uh, so that's good.

And then when we see 'em, uh, they're disoriented, recumbent, uh, flopping

around, uh, that kind of thing.

So they, uh, the cuteness doesn't fit at that moment.

It, it comes, okay, uh, what's the matter?

Make a diagnosis, uh, figure out a treatment, and then.

You know, proceed from there.

But it, it makes, it, it, it's sure a lot of fun.

And then when you turn what the one of these foals that been upside down

and doesn't know his, a mother and wandering around, then they're out

running around the field and they're, he's following his mom and doing stuff.

Yeah.

That, that's, uh, that's a good reward system.

. So I'm going to rearrange

I actually found you through Instagram.

Somebody was demonstrating using Pnma squeeze on a calf on their farm, and

it wasn't something I had heard of.

And as a, as a livestock producer myself, I raised beef cattle and

lambs, and Arlene has dairy cattle.

Um, I've certainly dealt with some lambs that didn't do real well

after birth, more than calves.

Um, so I'm wondering if you can tell us some about the Madigan squeeze.

And my big question was how sure you were, were you that it was gonna

work the first time you tried it?

Were you like, pretty sure, or was it one of those like, well, it can't hurt

because, you know, I know there's some things we try as farmers just because

it's worth trying something, but,

you know, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's one of the most common questions I get is, uh, You know,

it really starts with, well, how'd you decide you were gonna try this?

And then, uh, you know, what was the first time you used it?

And then what's the science behind it?

So, uh, there's a bit of a story with it.

So I guess with the podcast, that's an okay thing.

So I, I started the neonatal intensive care unit, uc, Davis, in the mid eighties.

And it was, uh, the third one in the United States.

And at that point, when FOLs would come in, we didn't know how to hook

'em up to IV fluids and give 'em glucose electrolytes and things like

that, and then still be able to keep 'em with her mother and then treat 'em

with antibiotics and, and things like that, and oxygen and, and all that.

So I saw the critical care aspect and we said what a big part of our

teaching load was this thing called the maladjustment or dummy fold.

And at that point, the, uh, the, what the experts said, I am board certified

internal medicine, so I'll follow my, saw myself in that category.

We all, the, the word was that this was due to low oxygen.

But as the time went by, I saw that, uh, these folds, if you did intensive care,

they would all of a sudden wake up, uh, 2, 3, 5 days into the care, which is

expensive and not everybody can do it.

They'd wake up and they'd have no residual neurologic deficits whatsoever.

So that doesn't happen when your brain is injured to the extent that

we're seeing these abnormal behaviors and seizures and things like that.

So I thought something else was going on.

What, uh, what we, I was in New Zealand and um, on sabbatical and they were

working with this project on is it humane to cut the tail off of a newborn lamb?

Do they feel things and can you, uh, castrate 'em?

Can you do things?

So they had a big welfare thing.

So they'd meet the European standards for export of lambs, you know, that they

were raising 'em right and everything.

So these guys were doing a lot of science and they said, and I just snuck into

a seminar cuz I, I had time there and the guy, they were talking about these,

uh, sedative progesterone derivatives.

And I knew about progesterone, of course, when we think of

pregnant mayors and whatnot.

And, and, uh, but I didn't know that it fed into a pathway to produce sedation,

uh, big time sedation, almost like Valium or a barbital or even anesthesia.

So, uh, I remembered a graph that guy in England had done

in the, uh, late eighties.

And he showed that some of these dummy folds had elevated progesterone.

He was just measuring stuff.

And, uh, so I thought, whoa, well, I'd get back to home.

I'm gonna measure that in some of these dummy folds.

So we did, and, uh, it was sky high so that we knew that they were endogenously

producing this progesterone that was feeding into the brain center that

controls sedation and consciousness.

And the reason for that is if you're a hundred pound full or

80 pound fo in utero, uh, one of the, one of the rules is you don't

gallop in the womb, but guess what?

Two hours later, you better be doing it, or the predator's gonna get you.

So there has to be quite a swish switch in consciousness that occurs at birth.

So what is that?

Is, is it light?

Is it sound, is it touch?

You know, you can do a rectal exam on a pregnant mirror and

bump that fall and he'll wiggle around, but he's not waking up.

. So, uh, anyway, so that was, uh, something to ponder.

We just knew that these dummy folds were full of these and they call 'em

neuro steroids cuz the progesterone's a steroid then feeds into this pathway

and it's made in the brain and whatnot.

And so it was a failure to transition, you know, the consciousness from the,

in the womb to the external life.

And it was in the fo i I wasn't thinking of other animals at that time.

So I had a separate project where we were trying to do a master's project

for a student and get it done.

And, and when you, when you hold onto a, a fo that's in the newborn

category, say 1224 hours, veterinarians and horse owners know this and

you wanna do something with them.

And you put your arm around the front of 'em, around the

back, and you hold 'em tight.

They flop their head drops and they go down and it's called the

flopping reaction being described.

. So we had a neurologist, uh, Dr.

Monica Alman, who was working with us, and we said, let's

figure out the mechanism of that.

So the reason this ties in is that she was doing electrical recordings of

brainwave in the fall when we would, uh, put the pressure on him and they'd flop.

She said, I need 20 minutes to get this recording done, and

hell, I can't hold them minute, we couldn't get anybody to hold.

So I remembered this loop, uh, uh, restraint thing that they

use in cattle to lay 'em down.

It's from the early 19 hundreds.

It's been around a long time.

Two half hitches over the thorax, something around the, the chest, and

you pull on it, cattle will lay down.

So we tried it in the full, full leg down, did it for 20 minutes.

and, uh, at the, and then we measured all kinds of different things.

And since we were measuring the neuros steroids in the, in the , I

said, we wanna publish this.

So measure it before.

Measure it after.

Well, what happened is when we got the data at number one, the brain wave showed

that they go immediately into sleep when you put this thing on and that

showed the, and when they go through the birth canal, uh, that's a good idea

because you got two legs and a nose in a miracle presentation that the mirror

rolls and puts it in the position.

I mean, it's kind of amazing.

And if you're doing that, you sure as hell don't wanna wiggle in and

moving back around and everything.

So the squeeze of mobilizes them.

And then at the end of our 20 minute experiment, uh, we saw that some of these

neuro steroids shifted around a little.

. So every, so I'm driving home one day and I'm thinking, I wonder, you

know, 20 minutes is the stage duration of stage two labor of the mayor.

So when she gets a fallen position, the water breaks, it's 20 minutes that the

fall goes through that squeezing thing, and then all of a sudden it wakes up.

So thought, Jesus, I wonder, wonder if they're, if that's, you know, if

some, and then I remember this, you know that some of these folds that

come in their dummies, they've had quick birth or they've been pulled.

So I get a call, she'll get back to, this is a long answer to your question.

How'd you know when you first had it?

So here's what happens is when you're in veterinary medicine and you have people

and clients, they have your cell phone.

So I'm not on duty.

I'm sitting in my office in the, in the, this breeder and she's, uh, Ellen Jackson,

she won't mind me mentioning her name.

She's a owner operator plus a racehorse trainer, magnificent individual, folds

out 80, 90, uh, Meres a year there.

And so she calls me and towards the end of the season she goes, Hey, I got a dummy

fo here and it's the end of the season.

I'm exhausted.

I can't spend any money on him bringing in.

He's been upside down in the feeder.

He is eight hours old and somebody said you were doing research.

Have you got something cheap that I can just give him?

And, uh, cuz I, I, I just can't nurse one of these things along

for a few hours or send them in for a few days and send them in.

So I said, Oh, well what was the birth like, Ellen?

And she says, oh, it was normal.

I said, well, you know, you have to sometimes cross

examine your, uh, your clients.

And I said, well, uh, what was normal?

How fast was it?

She said, oh man, I was in the kitchen and the full alert went off.

I went out there, he was standing up.

Oh, a quick birth.

Yes.

And so a quick birth, you know, the birth.

So I'm sitting there and I said, well, you wanna try something different?

She said, if, as long as it won't hurt him and it won't cost me

anything, I think your farm, you know, listeners will identify with

that a particular, you know, desire.

So I said, yeah, have you got a rope?

And she said, hell yes, I got a rope.

So I drive down there, no drugs, no medicine, no

nothing on this neonatal call.

And I get there and he's again trying to get upside down in the feeder,

flopping around and aimlessly, she's trying to stick a bottle, his mouth, he

takes a little bit of milk and whatnot.

So I put this squeeze thing on him.

He lays down, goes to sleep.

, and here's when I knew something happened.

As soon as you, I release these ropes and then all these folds, they'll, they'll,

and, and if you're doing it to a normal fold, like we did a research thing,

as soon as you release that pressure, it's like going outta the burst canal.

They just pop right up, they stand, they stretch, they like, they've been asleep.

So this guy, he, I let the rope off, he stands up and for the first time in

eight hours, he nickers to his mother.

And the guy that's holding the bear just about gets knocked over because she hears

this from the vo, which is supposed to happen, you know, as part of the bonding.

So she just bumps this guy outta the way and goes over and

starts licking her, licking the.

. So I figured, uh, something happened here and man, it was fast.

So then I look over and the, and the owner, Ellen, she just think,

and she told me later what she was thinking, she just crack.

I'd call Madigan out here to wake the fo up and now he's got him laying

out even flatter, going to sleep.

You know, what the hell is going on here?

You know, she's very practical and so she's over milking the mirror because

she said, I have a stomach tube so you can tube 'em while you're here.

You know, because she just seen him go sleep.

I said, well, why, why don't we leave a little milk there and

just see what happens for me?

So he goes over and starts nursing and she's just looking at me like, oh my

God, why didn't I have this 20 years ago?

I've been, you know, dot da da.

So that it was trauma.

. And then, uh, it was towards the end of our following season, so I had another,

uh, veterinary friend in Australia, Dr.

Elizabeth Woolsey, and she had a 48 hour fall referred in there and she said,

Hey, I, you, you mentioned something about this, you know, squeezing thing.

And so she does it, he gets up in eight minutes, he's nursing and they've been

48 hours of around the clock care.

So we started doing it and that that was the start of it.

So how far out after birth does the squeeze work?

Well, the cattle people are teaching us something here because we didn't

do this experiment in cattle, but they have to do the same thing.

They can't, you know, poke a hole in the uterus, you know, while they're in utero.

They gotta go through the burst canal.

And then some of these things they do wander around, they're

off the suck and whatnot.

. So what we know in the fos, out for about five to seven days, this will work, but

if you're not taking care of 'em in there, they're gonna be septic and hypoglycemic

and, you know, not, not, anyway, so it, so it usually, we're doing this within

the first three days and now people are catching on, so they do it, uh, early.

But I'll have, uh, some of these, uh, things, if you go to Facebook or Google

and put in Madigan, squeeze and Calf, the, these wonderful videos from the

farmers, you know, uh, the, one of my favorites is the, uh, the wife is filming

with the two kids next to her looking through a crack in the barn, you know,

window there in the, in the, her husband's out there with a warm jacket on and

she says he won't give up on that calf.

He's using the esophageal feeder and it's day six now.

And I told him, Hey, I heard about this thing on the internet.

And then I.

You know, so he's gonna try it.

So, so the kids are all watching.

She's watching.

So he's out there, he puts it on and he is in his jacket.

And then the cow is on the other side of the, the, the panel.

And so he lets go of the rope and that calf walks over

there, and tries to get in.

He opens the gate and it starts nursing, you know?

And the kids go, wow, whoa.

You know, this is great.

So anyway, that one was, uh, five to seven days that, uh, you know,

they've been sticking with it.

Yeah, it's, I'd have to say that tube feeding a baby more than

once or twice, it's about the most frustrating damn thing in the world.

So if there's something it'll, you know, perk them back up.

It's, yeah.

I assume that fos are like lambs that the longer they go without food,

the stupider they get too, cuz lambs just, you know, yeah, they get real.

They'll take real fast.

Real fast.

And, um, The group in Oregon at the, uh, Oregon State University at the

vet school, and then with the ag division there, they just, uh, uh,

wrote a, uh, did a study and I think they had 80 or 90 lambs in each group.

The ones with the abnormal behavior and then the control group.

And they concluded that when they used the squeeze procedure, it rapidly corrected

the, uh, the lambs misguided mental stuff.

And they started to nurse and, uh, they did ones that were seizing.

They had ho there's a nice category you can see if you go lambs.

And they called it the thoracic squeeze and the title.

And so you can see that.

And then they did it in, uh, in, uh, New Zealand.

because I communicated this, you know, back to them and they had a c-section

lab for the, at the vet school.

So they did, you know, a cow and they did C-section, well, some of'em were kind of

early, so they bypassed the birth canal.

And then two of the, I think they did seven in the lab.

Two of 'em weren't nursing at all.

So they did the squeeze and they went over and, you know, started nursing.

And then they've done, uh, some, I've done some stuff, uh, with the

failure to thrive, uh, pigs as well.

These little guys that, that wiggle around and get pushed away and then they

start fading, uh, they can wake up again.

Yeah,

I was just wondering if there's any risk factors associated with, with the

procedure or, um, you know, if people can mess it up because , we, we can

always find ways to mess things up.

Yeah, it, uh, the only contradiction would be, and it's in the folds, if they

have fractured ribs and uh, if they've had a quick birth, that's unlikely.

Cuz they're, that means that they're, you know, they're pretty big.

And, uh, so that, that would be it.

Uh, um, it's, it, it's a short procedure.

Uh, the thoracic thing, if they're in respiratory distress and cyanotic and

truly asphyxiated, it's not gonna do anything if there's really brain damage

as opposed to a persistence of these hormones that are keeping 'em asleep.

So, and all the data shows back to the dummy fos.

20% do not recover even in the best intensive care.

Well, those are really asphyxiated, brain damaged, uh, fos and, uh,

they're not gonna get better.

So, um, eight outta 10 will, but that, that the eight outta 10 are the one.

That somebody brought into the clinic or the vet comes twice a

day, and not everybody can do that for, you know, two to 7, 5, 7 days.

It's, it's, uh, so the fact that, you know, you could, there's a lot of

ways to put this thoracic pressure on.

We have a little harness that we use in the clinic, but I, they, they said, why

don't you sell that and market that?

And I said, well, I'm afraid people are gonna think you need this damn

special harness, rather than a rope that you can just put a half pitch around.

So we're not gonna, we're not going to even show that in the pictures.

So we stick with the rope.

And I hear some people worried about putting a rope around there, but I

mean, they, some of my veterinarians say, oh, I just sit on 'em now.

I just sit, you know, on top of them and, uh, whatnot.

So, no, it's, it, and there's so many videos of how to do it.

Like you can find one, I.

Manual, equine neonatal website, and it's got, you know, very easy step by step,

you know, ways to do it and you'll know you're doing it right if the fo lays down

and you just keep enough pressure on.

People say how much pressure is, just keep some tension on there.

If they start to wake up, pull it a little harder.

And it's like having an untrained dog, which I'm very familiar with, out on a

walk, and they're kind of pulling on you.

It's about that much pressure.

Does it matter, um, how big a rope you use compared to the size of the animal?

I'm saying I'm okay.

I'm trying to pick.

No, you

can, you want something that slides and produces some compression

loss, uh, the dorsal, uh, over the back and then under the stern.

And, uh, so, you know, a medium sized rope and without ridges on it.

So it'll slide, you know, is, is easy.

And there is a company, I think it's equine reproduction products

or something, and they have a rope that has a Honda in it.

So you don't have to, the rope would normally go, you know, over the

shoulder between the front legs, and then it comes up to the withers, goes

over the back, put the rope underneath it, that's called a half hitch.

Then you go over the back, put it underneath that, and then you pull the

long extension out behind the fold, have somebody holding it while it, then

it just gradually, easily lays down.

And it's used now in normal folds.

And where you gotta do an ultrasound or you gotta put a IV catheter

in, or you gotta run some plasma.

The fo goes to sleep, you put a blindfold on them, the mayor knows the FO's asleep.

You let her just stand right there.

And you can do a lot of procedures in the fo uh, except that they're, they, they

have a reduction in their pain response, which we determined in the experiment.

They're, they're asleep, not an nesti.

So you can, you can wake 'em up if you, you know, poke 'em too hard.

But they do have an increase in endorphins and, uh, so they, they

tolerate a little bit of, uh, things that they normally wouldn't

see.

This sounds promising even for having to poke at a calf.

Cuz the nice part about lambs is you can, you know, pick 'em up and

do stuff, but having to hold onto a calf while somebody does something

to 'em is a little more, little more

challenging.

Yeah.

Sometimes.

Yeah.

And they'll, they'll lay down.

It makes it a hell of a lot easier.

Yeah.

It's as the one who's always holding on.

You know, , I have a, I have a vested interest in making this easier.

Yeah.

Um, so did you grow up on a farm or how did you end up in, in

vet medicine in the first place?

Well,

I, uh, you know, I actually, uh, grew up in San Francisco and then,

uh, my sister liked to ride, and so my mother bought her this horse that

turned out to be kind of a runaway.

And, and, and they kept it in Golden Gate fields.

And so for some reason I started riding it.

I guess I was 12 or 13, and, and the police barn was right there.

And then, so the horse would every once in a while take off and run me through

an intersection, and then I would turn it up into the trees and stop it.

And I wasn't phased too much by that.

And then the police officers were on their mountain of patrol.

They said, Hey kid, uh, come on down to our place.

We , we, we wanna show you a few things.

So I started doing that, and then I was riding my sister's

horse so much they bought me one.

Then we moved to.

Woodside to have the horses.

And I got a job on a, uh, children's camp in guest ranch when I was 15.

I had to misrepresent my age, uh, as being a little older.

And then, uh, where you taught kids riding and then played, you know, I

did some roping and then I met a guy that played polo as a veterinarian.

That's how I got into veterinary medicine.

Uh, bill Lin Foot, and he was, he was a nine goal polo player.

So I, and I started playing polo, but I was really impressed by him and

he convinced me I, if I hadn't, uh, gotten a B in metal shop, I wouldn't

have graduated from high school.

So I had to really, uh, change some of my, uh, , uh, study habits and,

uh, and then had to be motivated.

And so he was a mentor for me and, uh, and I, I I, he did wild horse

breaking and, uh, he, he was really a hand and, uh, he could get on a

horse in 45 minutes, rope it, and then approach it and do all the things.

And it's, that's all caught on this natural horsemanship.

But he was, he was superb at it, but I, I noticed how he would focus on that horse.

So I had attention deficit disorder, so when I was in class, I'd

watch my instructor like a, like a, he watched these wild horse.

And then I, my gpa my first year of, uh, junior college was 1.7.

And then after I did this, I had a 3.66.

And, uh, so that, that was how then I, I had to really work hard to get into

vet school because I had such bad a.

I think it really says something no to the power of finding the right thing for you.

You know that Yeah.

As someone who also, um, has adhd, that, you know, if you find that thing

that interests you enough and you find the right folks to encourage you at

it, you can do just about anything.

But until you find that it can be a mess, and it's still a lot of work after that.

So.

Yep.

One of the thing, yeah.

One of the things you talked about at the beginning was your work in, uh,

disaster and emergency response involving large animals and doing rescues.

So is it just being in California that leads you into that field, or

is there, there's something else.

I mean, being from places where there are, you know, not really any risks of

fires or earthquakes, um, you know, we feel more safe, I suppose, where we live.

But what else led you into to that part of, of your work?

Yeah, well when I, when I, uh, graduated from vet school, I went into

private practice in Mendocino County and, um, I ended up discovering this

infectious disease up there that was considered very rare in horses and,

uh, only been 1616 in the world.

And then I see the saw started, diagnosed a lot of 'em and ended up getting recall.

The university offered me a job and, and, uh, back, uh, back at the, at

the School of Veterinary Medicine.

Uh, and I had a master's cuz it took me so long to get into vet school.

So when I first went there, we got all these really difficult cases.

We'd come in, horses would come in, in other words, down horses, you

know, they'd be in a wreck, fall off a cliff or do do something.

They'd come into the clinic.

So I was in a referral practice.

Well, we had terrible slings.

. So I started working with a welder friend of mine in private practice,

Charlie Anderson, when we developed this sling, it's called the Anderson Sling.

And after, named after Charlie.

And so I started, you know, taking care of a lot of horses, lifting

'em, putting 'em in slings, and you know, helping him that way.

And then I got a call from, uh, this organization, there were,

uh, five mules and one horse at the Sierras at 8,000 feet.

This is 1992.

And, and, uh, they were gonna, big snowstorm was coming in, and

so they, they couldn't get to 'em with, uh, they airlifted the people

out that got caught on this pass.

So they said, Hey, uh, they made a call to the school.

So the dean sent the call to me and I said, well, sure.

I, you know, we can, we could, you know, put him, attach him to a helicopter.

Fly 'em out of there.

And then they said, have you done that?

I said, well, no, but, uh, you know, what's the difference between a hook

that's on a helicopter, a hook that's on the top of the beam in our barn?

You know, I, I, I, I know this equipment, they're not getting out of it.

They, I know that, so I don't care whether it's, you know what the hook's on.

Oh, okay.

So anyway, I, so, so I did that and we were successful and there was

a tremendous amount of publicity with a video of the fo, you know,

the mule in the air and landing.

And they, we landed at a ski resort.

We had another team there on Hook 'em, and then we came back and got another one.

So, so then there was a big flood in 97.

So I, I, I'd been getting calls from fire departments, emergency place, Hey,

we can't get this horse outta here.

Can you do that here?

Look.

Yeah.

Okay.

So when the flood happened, I called this veterinary friend of mine up

there in Yuba City when the levee broke in 97 with this atmospheric river.

Like we, we had recently.

and uh, and I said, you need any help?

He said, yeah, the animal control went underwater.

And so they took my clinic over.

So they're all here and I'm hearing about all these animals that are stuck.

I said, well, you want us to come up?

He said, hell yeah, come up.

You know?

So I started doing that and then, geez, you know, we're going up boats

and, you know, getting dogs and horses and, you know, you know, tying

'em to, to the back of a boat when they're swimming, they get scared.

They get off this high spot and you tone 'em to a levy and make

'em stand with their head out of the water and things like that.

So, since I've done a lot of cowboy stuff, it was just easy, you know, for

me, uh, to do relative to some others I guess that, that, you know, just

anyways, just kind of a personality thing.

And, uh, so then the governor has this big deal and.

, um, you know, thanks everybody.

And then all of a sudden I'm on the California Animal Response emergency

system training, you know, uh, committee, committee . So all of a sudden I'm, you

know, you know, in this disaster thing.

But I've been there, done that, and so I have some ideas.

So that's how I got started.

And then our students wanted to do it, so I would, you know, uh, they thought we

were much or more organized than we were.

They said, God, you guys respond well, you know, when I get a

call, I walk through the barn.

Are you busy?

No.

Okay.

You know, we didn't have a call out list or anything.

They, they had really no idea was, you know, okay.

Anybody, is anybody using that truck?

Okay, let's get it.

. It was that kind of thing that got me into, uh, the emergency stuff.

Then it got very, very organized.

So our school of vet Med Veterinary Emergency Response

team, we have 90 students in it.

And, uh, I started that and then I helped write the legislation

for the Cal Vet program.

We got $3 million a year, uh, to that program every year to coordinate with

the California Department of Food and Ag and do trainings, get counties

up to speed and things like that.

What equipment do they need, and then have a coordinated response.

So I'm not doing that.

I just helped kind of lay some groundwork for it.

Sure.

Have there been recent rescues with the, I mean, we've been hearing about the,

the flooding in California as of late.

Have there been a lot of animal rescues that have been required or Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

They've been.

Well, yeah, there's been, there, there, there's a lot of movement of animals.

I, there hasn't been any, uh, dramatic things that I'm aware of.

What, what, what, when, when, you know, something's coming, like

these storms, you know, it, it, it's now it's not like, oh gee, I

never thought this was gonna happen.

So after all these years where the wildfires and now with the, with the

flooding and everything, there's these county animal emergency response teams,

and none of that existed when we, you know, got the first call for that.

We didn't have any of that.

So we don't, uh, there was a rescue on the Tevas Cup with, uh, a horse had

to get air lifted out of there, and they used our equipment and protocols

and, and uh, things like that.

But, uh, with the floods there's always, you know, horses that are in water

that people have to wait out and get.

but people are getting smarter here and they do things in advance and they move

the animals, the, you know, the higher ground or the neighbors and whatnot.

Especially with a little advanced warning that something big is happening.

So, Dr.

Madigan, can you describe some of the equipment that you've created?

Cuz I know, you know, we see a lot of animal welfare videos, you know,

decrying and hip lifts and that, and I don't think that non livestock

folks get how big cattle and horses are and that you can't just grab 'em

cuz they've got, you know, bones and squishy internal bits and, and that

they move, you know, which really Yeah.

Makes it harder than picking up a car or something, you know.

, you can't just grab 'em.

Yeah.

And then, so when it happens to a cow rancher, it doesn't happen every day.

So they're a low frequency event.

Mm-hmm.

, but they're, and then we call that high hazard too, because it things can go wrong

for the animal or the people responding.

And so in the fire department, if they respond, whether it's a rancher, a fire

department, they have the same thing.

It's a low frequency, high hazard event.

So the experience that we had, like with this Anderson sling, I had to give a talk.

So we pulled up the records.

It'd been used in 3,500 horses since we invented it.

So we have a hell of a lot of experience about, you know, how to do this stuff.

So that's a good sling, but it's hard to get on a recumbent pat, a down horse or

a down count or anything underneath it.

It's got so many buckles and straps and everything.

So then the next invention, I had what's called the large animal lift,

and that's commercially available with another company, not mine.

And it slides underneath them and it has a bar over the top of it.

and that that's an okay piece of equipment.

It's about 2,800 bucks.

The Anderson sling's about 14,000 or 12 thou, no, excuse me, 6,000.

And so there's a bit of a investment.

So you, so I mean, being a practical guy, you know, said two things.

One, it's gotta be accessible equipment at the time you need it, you've gotta

be, it's gotta be easy to put on.

and you've got, it's gotta be portable.

So we, the thing that we have now is called this loops rescue system.

Been sent a duffle bag that you can carry, and then it has a guidebook in

there where if you take the time to read this or do one training with it,

it, it, the, a person stands behind the back of the horse or the cow.

And then you read, reads to the person, throw the loop over the upper

front leg, pull it towards you, then put the loop over the cow or the

horse's head, pull it around you.

Now that's step one, step two, da, da, da.

So the fire department guys, they read to each other.

It's like, pull an a, e, D for a defibrillator.

You pull it off the wall, they, they tell you everything, walk to the

patient, you know, then open the shirt or whatever, you know, put the pedal.

So this guidebook, step by step.

So, cuz I could see our students couldn't remember if you don't, if you only do it.

Intermittently.

You, I'm good at.

So this thing, yeah, it, it's very simplified and there's no knots.

It's a continuous loop.

So I just pondered this and then, uh, Dr.

Alman and I were with one of our horses.

We were out here cuz you don't wanna put it under their arm and then lift them

up cuz the brachial plexus is there.

So we figured out if you pass it over the head and bill crisscross under the

sternum, it lifts by the skeletal system, whether it's a cow, a horse, a giraffe.

We have one for giraffes that's a little longer straps.

And, uh, we have an inflatable giraffe to practice at the zoos,

you know, with how to, how to pull a giraffe around and things like that.

And, uh, so that's the, it's called the loops rescue system.

It's, uh, on the internet and uh, my son and I distribute it, do the

training, and uh, it's less than $500.

So that's the advantage.

And it has everything we think.

Uh, somebody needs, and it doesn't take up a lot of space in a firetruck.

So the other thing is, uh, one of the guys, the Office of Marine Reserves,

they're getting it N F P A approved for the fire departments so they

can use their federal funds to, to grab, you know, to purchase it.

And, uh, well I'm, I'm doing a training in Illinois this month.

I'm gonna do it over the internet cuz it's, uh, I've worked with some

of the guys there so they know it.

But they're gonna train, uh, their, their first responders and

then they're gonna train some of the rural fire department guys.

Cause you got a horse sticking his head out with some ice and everything.

It's hard to get in there on the mud.

So we have a real practical.

Approach, and we think you can do about 85, 90% of what you need to do out of

this duffle bag compared to having a rescue trailer with hooks, snaps, and

guideposts, you know, and all, all this stuff with, which is behind a

lock gate on a Sunday where somebody doesn't have the key and the person,

there's one person on duty and they're an hour away looking for a lost dog.

And you've gotta wait with a horse or a cow flopping around, stuck somewhere.

So you have to have accessible equipment.

That means it has to be affordable and it has to be able to have

an instruction guide in it.

So that's been the guiding principles for that.

. Well, I know one of my husband's friend's

fall and thank God was not killed.

But realizing how far away the equipment is to deal with something like that

really drives home the importance of being able to do something, like

throwing a duffel bag in the back of a truck instead of having to go.

Yeah.

You know, it was an hour and a half drive to get the equipment they needed to get

everything back up the hill and off him.

And that was,

ugh, serious.

Oh no, it exactly right.

And, um, you know, if you're on a pack trip and the horse gets in the

mud, you can have, you know, I, I do some lectures in the mountains

in Craig London at his pack station there in the Sierra, as he has one.

And, uh, one of these kits.

And, and, uh, if you have it in a horse trailer at a barn, you

can grab it and, and you know, horses that down is dead for them.

So they, they fight like hell.

They, and then all these secondary engine, by the time you get there with

equipment in two, three hours, they're in another bad, further bad state.

Yeah, I was gonna say, it says a lot about your horsemanship that you've done in

this many rescues and haven't been killed.

So

yeah, I think that somebody was acting

Somebody was asking me, they go, Hey, uh, how'd you get this protocol?

When we were doing the airlift of mules, cuz a packer couldn't go in, there was

only so much room in the helicopter.

And then we had the other guy that was doing the lifting helicopter

and uh, so he said a couple of those mules don't like it.

Just everybody that they see, you know.

And so we had to walk em out in the snow where, so the, the helicopter came

in with a long line and then we had to put the frame over the top of em.

So we started blindfolding them, you know, cuz we learned that, that in,

in, uh, and then when we've done.

Trainings up the Marine Mount Warfare, you know, the, the, the, the Marine guys.

They're like, oh, here's a college professor to show us what to do.

You know?

And, and so they go, well, you can catch if you can, you know, put this on Freddy,

you know, you can use anything here.

And they go, well, where's Freddy?

Oh, we got him in the squeeze shoot so we can put the halter on him.

You know, so I, oh, okay.

So I put Freddy out on the tar back after we got the halter on me.

And he, he, he was really an expert at kicking, but we blindfolded him and then

he tried to kick and he fell down and he couldn't see what happened to him.

He got back up and he thought, damn, I tell you, these guys are tough.

I better stand still.

So yeah, there I've been, you gotta have a little savvy, you know, since cowboy

stuff where no, we better not do that.

We better stand here.

Wait a second.

I was on a trail ride and a friend of mine was trying to go up out of the water and

there'd been a big change in the river, and his horse fell backwards with him.

and he got his rain, his foot over the rain, and the rain was

over the horn of the saddle.

So the horse was stuck and he was flailing around and the guy barely got out of

this, it was 10 feet of water or so, where he is, where the horse moved in.

So I galloped up to see where he is, helped him get out, and I'm

watching this horse f flopping around.

And I, so getting back to this instinct, I remember get, when you

get your, you know, lifesaver thing, they'd go wait for the person to

quit struggling and then grab him.

So this horse just went under the water and then I walked out and stuck

his head out and he held his breath.

He blew a bunch of water out of his nose, believe it or not.

And then he just like a, like a sort of a submerged boat that was on its side.

I could just drag him to the edge and got my pocket knife out and

cut his rain off of the horn.

He stood up.

But if I tried to, you know, jump in anyway, it's, yeah, you gotta, you

gotta have that sixth sense to like a, kind of like a, uh, rodeo clown.

Yeah, , I don't know a lot about how the fire service works and I'm in Canada,

so I mean, it's probably a different system, but are there ways that we as

farmers could advocate to get our fire departments, to have that gear on site?

Or are there programs to, to, to kind of put a bit of pressure on

to make sure that those things are available if we should need them?

Because I know in some places there aren't a lot of farms, but you're

also depending on those people to help you out when you need it.

Yeah, well, a lot of these communities do have, you know, the, uh, well, they,

California, they named California.

They, uh, county animal response teams.

Well, when you're really rural and you, you, you, you, you know that if you've

got a problem, then you, you, you get a group of people that say, well, if you

have a problem, here's a call, call list.

And, uh, you know, we'll, we'll drop what we're doing and.

and, you know, go over there, uh, go to the site.

So a lot of times it's through the volunteer fire departments.

That's where, you know, they go and then they have to respond because they'll be,

they get these animal calls all the time.

I mean, if you go to Google and look at fire department and horse

rescue, there'll be some horse pulled out of this or that every week.

So I think there's two things that it's, one is that you get a little

training and you should train with something that's very simple.

And then you should have it be affordable so that it's not a, you

know, it's not you, you, you'll, you'll, you'll pull the trigger on it because

you're not gonna use it very often.

And, uh, I think if you start with that and then send one of your

guys, if you, we do these trainings periodically and they learn how to.

. Now what we do is we have a PowerPoint and a disc that gives all the background

on the different equipment you can use and why you might wanna use this,

and the limitations of all the things.

And then the steps to do it in the mud, in the water, off the edge,

pull it backwards, pulling forward.

And you can actually, they can give that PowerPoint after they've

been to one of these trainings and show the other people how to do it.

And it, and that's the, you know, in Vet Med they used to say, uh, okay,

uh, here's what you're gonna do is, uh, w watch one, do one, teach one.

You know, so it's a little bit like that, but it has to be simple,

practical, and then have a reminder system, which is this little booklet.

It's not on a damn app, it's in print.

It's, it's, uh, waterproof, coffee proof, manure proof.

, you know, so that you can go, okay, we're gonna pull 'em backwards.

So, okay.

Stand here.

Tell me which leg do I throw this damn thing over.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then you can stretch these out.

There's four loops in there.

So you can pull for, well, you can put six, eight people on the end of

this after you attach it to the front of the back of the cow or the horse.

And you can loop these together.

And then there's another six feet, another six feet, and you'd get a whole pile

of people and give a yank on this thing if you can't get your equipment there.

So that's all kind of, you know, that just comes from the cowboy

up stuff that I grew up with.

Well, it's

good to see too, you know, animal handling equipment that's built for

when things are going wrong, because it seems like so much of what we see is

it'll work great as long as this horse is stuck somewhere on dry flat cement.

You know, like . It wouldn't be stuck.

Yeah.

If it was somewhere that it was gonna be easy to get it

out of cuz it would've just.

Walked away, you know, wouldn't be an issue.

Yeah, we've got even a thing called a people mover in there and uh, it's got

all these straps on, it's 1800 pounds and you can get it under a horse.

And then if you can attach the, one of these loops to that on either side of

that, and then the loop on the horse.

So you got a drag system if you do have to go over kind of really rough stuff too.

And that's all that's in the bottom of the bag.

So, uh, you know, as you mentioned that, cuz some of these skids are

really nice, but they're, they're great big, you know, 10 feet, you know, you

don't, you don't always have that.

So we got this and if you tear a couple holes in it, great.

Get another one.

After you're done, you're gonna use it again in about a year or maybe two.

So you said people mover.

I thought maybe we were talking about, you know, like when I was pregnant

and I got stuck in the mud out in the sheep lot and lost my boots and we

coulda used some sort of a hoist system

for that one system too.

That's the other thing.

Yeah.

We always make a joke and say, God dang it.

Now you animal lover people.

If we go out there and the rider, there's been a wreck and the horse is off the

edge and there's also a person there.

You gotta use the people motor on the person first.

. Cause these other people say, oh, we gotta get the horse.

No.

Okay, no people first.

So as people who have livestock, one of the things that's, you know

is always in the back of your mind is what to do in an emergency.

So what things should we be doing as livestock owners to be ready for

an emergencies when they come up?

What things should we have already in place?

Yeah.

Well, that's a really good question and there's lots of good literature on it, but

figure out what the risk factor is for the season, that seasons that you experience.

You know, it could be, you know, uh, freezing.

It could be flood, it could be fire, it could be, you get a lot of earthquakes.

And so, you know, when I, I give a talk in Japan, it was all about earthquake and

animal sheltering and things like that.

So if you're gonna have a fire, okay, what are we gonna do?

If we're gonna shelter in place, where are we gonna move the animals

or whatnot for a defensible space?

And that may mean we gotta rearrange a little landscaping.

So you sit and make a plan so that that's the, that's the deal.

And.

You can, the farmers and ranchers are very practical, but if you just say,

identify what's the problem and then say, okay, could we move all these cattle?

Uh, if the fire starts right away, if it's a long distance away and

it's liable to come, yeah, you may be able to have time, but if you don't,

so you figure out a scenario for a rapid, uh, what are you gonna do?

And if you gotta leave everybody, if you gotta have the carrier for the

dog, the cats and all this stuff, there's some very elaborate, you know,

preparations have seven days of food and, you know, this kind of thing.

It, it just enough to, to save you first and your family members and then the pets.

And then what about the livestock and things like that.

So you have your important papers, dammit, you know, just have 'em in a

deal that you grab and take with you, you know, have that on your list.

So, You just gotta sit down and say this could happen.

That's the first thing is that this probably won't happen to me, you know?

Well we all got a safety belt on now, but back in the day, you know, when

they were just didn't even have 'em.

It was like, uh, I'm not going on too long of a trip.

I don't have to wear it.

You know?

Now that kind thing, you just have to say this could happen

or it happened to somebody else.

So we better sit down and go through the personal plan, the family plan, the

pet plan, and then the livestock plan.

And then if you check with your county Office of Emergency Services, because

once you leave it's hard to get back in.

And if you have to take some ding online training about, which basically

tells you if the fire department to go in there, you need an escort.

If we tell you to leave, you gotta leave.

And very practical, but you get a little okay.

Badge if you will.

So they finally passed legislation cuz ranchers would go in and say, Hey, I

just gotta push these cows out up here.

And they say, no, it's a roadblock.

Or trailers trying to get into a a, a, a stable that's, that's being evacuated

and they don't have enough trailers and they're so they, yeah, they want

everybody to evacuate and the guy at the roadblock says, you can't come in.

No, we're we're going.

And he, so well, I, I'm, I'm here to help move the horses out and we have time.

Sorry you can't get in.

So if you have one of these office emergency services, what do I need

to get back in or to be helpful?

Uh, or to say that I understand what the risks are and that you've got a

name and you've got maybe a badge.

it is helpful to me cuz when I've gotta go somewhere and they're blocking people,

blocking people, and then they'll have a, a, uh, code that I gotta say to the

guy on the, uh, the roadblock and that, you know, they make a joke at, they

go tell 'em Madigan, that's the code.

I go, uh, I don't, they, they think I'm making that up.

It's in my light driver's license.

But anyway,

I like that.

It's like, uh, bond, James Bond.

It'll just be, you know, yeah.

Madigan, Dr.

Madigan here to rescue horses.

Um, yeah, I was thinking too, you know, so many rural folks.

You know, I'm in Iowa and more of the emergencies we see are flooding in that.

Um, but we're starting to see so much about pets, especially getting

separated from owners during emergencies and trying to get people

matched back with the right animals.

And I know as a, as a rural farmer, this fancy town crap, like microchipping

has never been something I considered.

And then, yeah, you know, we got a, got another dog and the vet said,

you know, it's, it's 20 bucks to get a micro chipped now, right?

I was like, well, shit.

And then she even came out to the car and did it.

And I have to say that's pretty cheap insurance for knowing

that, you know, somebody will microchips that much easier to bring

them back.

The thing you can do when you get separated and somebody says, oh

yeah, that's my Palomino, you know, quarter horse there, I wanna take

it home is a simple thing to do is take your picture with your pet.

And have it on your phone that you're not gonna lose or back up or on the

internet because you can show a picture of your pet, but you could have got

it off the internet, but not the two of you standing together was some,

you know, something that reflects, you know, you're at your place too.

And that's a very, you know, useful actually re reunification thing.

We had to make these pet pads for us, for the campfire, the Butte, there

was so many animals overwhelming this temporary shelter in this, uh, former.

Mental hospital of all things.

You know, back in the day when people weren't on the street, so we were trying

to keep a shelter, it was terrible.

So we wanted to move 'em to other counties, well they'd say, well, we

could lose track of 'em and they'd have a microchip, but what if they

have the wrong reader or whatnot?

So we created these pet passports and the best thing is back to the old

thing, is the photo of the, of the pet that goes along with the collar.

Cuz the collar can come off the, the microchip is great if you have it on

there, but the, the photo with the owner that's going to be requesting the animal,

whether it's a horse or not, is good.

And then if your horse get loose, you know, you, it's nice to have

something written on 'em or a collar or something like that.

But we have microchip for horses too.

So, but what I'm hearing you say is that the next time somebody argues about having

our dogs in our formal family portraits, I can tell 'em that you said we had to.

I like, I like this a lot.

I

mean, it's, it's a safety measure, dammit.

Yeah.

We had

our, we had our dog in our weddings, so there's dogs in every family picture.

Oh, yeah.

You know, it's,

yeah.

No, that's right.

And you can't keep 'em out of there.

If you did you and you're videoing, all you'd hear is woof, woof.

You know, the, they might as well just let 'em sit there next to you.

Yep.

My, uh, in our wedding photos, my ossie is tucked up under the

skirt of my wedding dress through pretty much the entire ceremony.

Oh, there you go.

So,

you know.

Yeah.

I forget what movie I saw where, uh, oh, it was James Harriet.

Do you watch that?

Where the, the dog ate the wedding ring and then they had to give , give

him the buster to make him throw up

Yeah.

So, right.

One of our dogs actually ate my daughter's umbilical cord when it

fell off right after she was born.

So I said, you know, oh wow.

That's how you know they're really part of the family when they go ahead and.

Party or kid.

Yeah, they're bonded.

He looked so cute.

Not

in the hospital.

Just to clarify though, not at the hospital.

No.

, no, no.

He would let Ola into the hospital.

. Poor dumb creature.

That's all right.

I'm gonna ask, I was gonna ask a parenting question, John, because we're both, uh,

parenting and an Ag podcast, and I'm at the stage of life where my oldest

is going off to school in the fall, and as a professor, I'm wondering if

you have any advice on things that we should be doing now to make sure that

she's as ready as she can be for, uh, the university or college experience.

Because, you know, as a parent, I'm feeling nervous about it, obviously, so I

figure you've got some expertise in this.

. Yeah.

Well, I, you know, it's a changing environment, you know, from when, uh,

and I have, uh, my kids, you know, went through that and, uh, I ended

up, uh, taking him to school, pulling him outta school and taking him to New

Zealand with me when I did that, uh, six month sabb at, so my son went to

a high school at a school, and then my daughter went to Mass University and she

ended up staying there and graduating.

So the, what, what, when I left her there, she was living with a,

a family that I met and knew via Veted and, and that kind of thing.

So she had a, it wasn't, uh, some, you know, uh, eight kids living in a

three-story place at like Idaho, uh, you know, which is a party, you know, thing.

So, You know, the dorm thing is good because you start and you meet people and

staying in the dorm is, is a good idea.

And if you have a school that, you know, here in California, there's some

a schools Cal Poly and things like that.

And, uh, Davis is, it's huge now, but I think, uh, getting in the dorm

and then when they do get outside the dorm, you really wanna be

careful what you know on the roommate selection and you know, how many kids

are in there and things like that.

And spend some extra money so they have some privacy, you know, for the

studying because the distraction.

When I was in college, one of the things I had to do was I had

to move out of the apartment.

I was living with three other guys and get my own, you know, it was a real dive,

but I could sleep, get up, study, you know, I had control of my environment.

So I think that that is really important.

And, uh, yeah, I, I, it, it's a challenge.

Uh, you know, I, things are with the social media and all this stuff, so I

think a good school that's grounded in, you know, fundamentals and that, that's,

that's getting harder to find, uh, would be one of the most important things.

And then the dorm, and then the schooling, and then, uh, you know,

that, that, and letting 'em know there's gonna be a lot of distractions.

And, uh, you know, that if they wanna stay there, you know, you, you, they're gonna

have to, you know, try to achieve this.

And if they get into trouble in something, that's okay, but get the help.

Figure out where you go to the study hall where you go to.

Thing and don't feel like if your roommate doesn't go to those extra

study sessions that you do like this.

Bill Linwood told me, he said, if you gotta stay eight hours for that

physics test and your roommate and for you to just get a B and your

roommate, you know, just sails through and gets an A, it doesn't matter.

That's what you gotta do.

You're, you're, you gotta, you know, you're, you have your own thing.

But if you gotta do that eight hours to get that grade, then do it.

It doesn't matter what the other people are doing.

So that was good advice for me because I did have to really, uh, had to

record classes and things like that.

So you figure out what your learning style is and then, uh, you know, it,

it, it's a, it's a bit of an adaption and uh, but I think the type of school

and the housing that you have is the best first start that I would suggest.

And that my kids thrived in New Zealand and my son didn't have as good

a coaching thing here in the town.

We were in the coaching, there was very, very, uh, good for,

uh, getting the students to feel like the coach believed in them.

And that, uh, you know, uh, you know, you wanna play in this position

if it's working, let's try that.

If you tell me that helps you, but otherwise, you know, and then

a coach would hear, would tell 'em, stand here, don't do this.

And, and, uh, so this, that, and then they would walk to school.

Uh, you know, the proximity to the, to the, you know,

where your, your classes are.

It's really important.

That's why the dorms to start with.

And then your secondary housing don't be too far away.

And, uh, so you can bike or walk, you know, to school if you can.

Yeah, those are good

reminders.

I, uh, , it's residence applications open today, the day that we're recording.

So we're, uh, we're on on schedule to get her application, uh, put in

today to be in residence next year.

So we've, uh, hopefully we'll have the first piece of your

advice, uh, followed for sure.

Oh, that's

good.

John.

I actually did my study abroad at Massey and had a great experience, so.

Oh, you did?

Yep.

But Arlene, my advice was just gonna be to let her buy some more cows so she doesn't

have any money to get into trouble.

You know, , a couple more show happens.

Show, but there's no money for tuition

either.

minor, little pay

for

tuition and red note somehow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, John, what do you.

C being next for you in your research.

And I noticed, you know, poking through the tremendous list of papers

you've written and been cited in, um, some work around human medicine

with cortisol and the sympathetic nervous system and all that.

And, you know, as, as that relates to your research with the Madigan squeeze

and that, so what do you, what's next?

What's the, what's the next thing to put your name on and, you

know?

Well, I, you know, uh, my daughter won me remind me telling, but she,

you know, uh, it's a genetic thing.

She developed postural orthostatic tachycardia or pots in, uh, it's a.

you know, a postviral thing, and then your heart rate goes up.

You don't circulate your blood the way you did your blood.

Your body feels like you're, what we call hypovolemia.

Like you dumped a liter or two of blood out on the sidewalk, so you're weak.

You can't put your hands over your head.

The shampoo, you do all this stuff.

So, uh, I didn't have a lot of things for that.

It's a, it's a long story, but I ended up, she was getting prescribed

IV fluids periodically and seeing a good neurologist, cardiologist.

So I, I saw this machine, this is called external counterpulsation.

Uh, and uh, it's a deal that squeezes your legs, uh, uh, and a synchrony, uh,

with it cuz the EKGs being recorded.

So I went with her to her cardiology appointment and of course the guy

sees me sitting there and he, when we both come in, he goes, uhoh, I got

another one of you, you professor's gonna tell, tell us cardiologists

what to do and, you know, whatnot.

So I asked if we could use his machine that he had up there and

he said, sure, it won't work.

And, and it did.

So I ended up buying the machine and then getting trained on it.

So for six years, actually, I go there once a week and she gets

on this machine and then she can actually function very well.

It resets your autonomic nervous system and there's a lot of

people suffering from that.

and she just started this new medication that slows her heart rate down and

she's not gonna use that machine.

So there's a discovery there with a drug that's designed for something else.

It's, it slows the AV node in the heart, but she's a

completely different person now.

And, uh, so I think trying to share, uh, some stuff about

what we learned on the pots.

We wanna do a broadcast cuz there's a lot of kids that they get told,

it's all in your head, we can't find anything wrong with you.

Uh, you know, you just gotta suck it up.

And, and they actually have a, you know, a problem.

And her mother had it and it was very life-changing for a, for a gal.

Grew up on a cow ranch and then you can't walk to the mailbox without

sitting down sometimes and stuff.

So that's one thing.

And then this thing with the squeeze and the kangaroo mother.

I'm telling you this, uh, that was invented, you know, seen in, not

invented, but it was midwives started saying, don't bring your baby.

This is in Columbia, into the uh, I c U.

They're gonna die there.

Uh, there were a lot of premature births.

Poor, poor prenatal care.

Well, when they started delivering the baby, then sticking him onto

the mother's chest and then tightly swaddling cuz they had to walk around

with 'em, they wore 'em all the time.

Well, that's the same thing that's happening, I think with the squeeze is

it helps and they show that it increases oxygenation and increases survival.

It increases, uh, feeding response, immunization.

And now they have a study that's gone out for 18 years showing

that your neurodevelopment scores.

. So that's one thing.

I think looking at our mechanisms that we've discovered with the neuro

steroids and applying that with the brainwave and other things and

infants, I'd like to, we started that and we had some hiccups with that.

We did that with Stanford.

We had Bill and One Gates Foundation, polymer G Grant.

So I'd like to.

Re you know, uh, revisit that thing, uh, a little bit and, and get some

more awareness because kids that are in NICU and everything and, and the,

and the, and the doctors, and we see this in vet Met, the hardest thing to

get the Madigan squeeze to be used is in one of these critical care units.

Because they can run the IV fluids, they can run the oxygen.

That's what they do.

They got the resident training, man.

That's the kind of cases they live and live for.

Well, if you don't integrate that particular procedure, you don't change

some of the neuro steroids, which can help you and maybe the animal.

So the same with the infants getting this, and now a lot of hospitals do it,

but I think if you had a marker and we think we've identified a marker in folds

with actually this serum progesterone level, and if you could get a quick

test for that, and you say, the reason this baby's not ventilating is cuz

it's full of this stuff because it doesn't need to ventilate in the womb.

and now it's out of the womb and it's still got this thing

that's turning this off.

And that's why you gotta use the ventilator.

So use a procedure or start developing, uh, drugs that

reverse these neuro steroids.

And then the last one is that we saw, uh, and I had a get a little video

and the university had me do it.

And uh, and I was talking about these abnormal behavior and people would come up

and tell me about their kids with autism that had diff, you know, difficult verses

or, uh, you know, uh, cesarean sections.

And then the kid developed autism and, and that is a risk factor for autism.

And there is a paper showing in kids 10 and 12 years old in saliva that

they have four of the neuro steroids that are elevated in the dummy fold.

They're actually elevated in these kids in the saliva.

So they may end up actually not fully transitioning consciousness at birth.

And I'm wondering if some subset of kids with autism, that's what's going on.

I was, uh, Laughing during your POTS discussion or Simply because

I'm in the process of diagnosis and treatment for hyper, hyper adrenaline

pots, and it is, it's a mind trip.

Yeah, for sure.

And realizing what an impact it has on your life if your heart rate just

goes bonkers was really, uh, yeah.

Well, the reason it, it goes bonkers is because your sympathetic nervous

system is you, you're like a, you know, a, a small pump on a huge

pipe, and those pipes are open.

. And when you, when that happens, and this colon, the drug is called chlor.

And uh, that's a brand for it.

And uh, it's working on another mechanism that is fundamental to this pots thing.

And all pots in my, when I've seen this and Reddit, that, that the

reason you're reason your heart rate goes up is because it's hyper auric.

Yeah.

A adrenaline's keeping you alive, you know, because, and then it's screwing with

your brain and your fight and flight or flight system shutting off the perfusion

to your gut and doing all these things.

So this, this medication, uh, could be very, very useful

and it was very hard to get.

And there's a subset, there's a, a paper on, uh, 26 case, uh, case

with pots treated with this, uh, uh, uh, with this medication.

And, uh, it's working on a, on a channel that's screwed up.

And, uh, women have it more than men.

It's postviral a lot of times.

And then it shuts off the normal regulation of your

autonomic nervous system.

So when you stand up, you're like a column of water rather

than everything integrating.

And, uh, and then if it, your blood pressure starts go low, uh,

adrenaline's gonna keep you up, keep you, you know, for going.

So that means your heart rate goes through the roof.

My daughters would go up to 140, 160 standing up, you know,

and now it doesn't happen.

She's out moving hay and doing things.

You know, this week, this is one week on this thing.

And, uh, it was a massive thing to get through there in tracks

is, is a small trial and get the insurance, but that's a breakthrough.

Uh, very exciting to see somebody's life return.

Well, and it's, it's good to see.

Getting past this, you know?

Well, it's all in your head.

Well, of course, anything that's ruled by hormones is in your head.

That's, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of clinicians have a really

hard time with anything that they can't actually, you know, poke at.

And so if they don't have a good way to test for it, it's just not a thing.

Yep.

And it's, yep.

I think we're just starting to see some really exciting research.

Hormones, the new auto automo, autonomic nervous system and all of that.

So it's, it's interesting to see where it's gonna go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, I don't think there's a more complicated system.

I mean, it's easier to go to the moon and back than figure out how your

autonomic nervous system integrates.

Every movement, you see all these computers that do to get a guy's

arm to move this way and that way well try standing up, walking

around, moving, running your heart, running your gut, you know, hello.

You know, uh, this is complex stuff and if you're lucky enough

to target that one, and a lot of things are, are, you know, channels.

That's how this squeeze works.

It actually opens up the chloride channel, we think, in the GA receptor,

which is the one that, that, uh, Valium and barbiturates work on.

So when you put that thing.

it opens up this gated movement, just like throwing a switch and they go to sleep.

Mm-hmm.

. And then when you remove it, the gate closes and the ions readjust and

you wake up and it's instantaneous.

So that's all gated movement of ions.

And this new drug works on this one channel for moving these

irons around, but it's fixing the peripheral circulation as well.

So it's, uh, uh, very excited about that.

All right.

So our last real question here, I guess we ask all of our guests, if you were

going to dominate a category at the county fair, and it can be a real one or you

can make up one to, you know, make sure that you win, what category would it be?

Oh, I saw that question on there and, uh, I, I was, uh, I, it

didn't come to me right away.

Uh, uh, , I don't, I don't know.

I would, I would probably, uh, have something for kids to learn about

veterinary medicine, and I wouldn't care whether I won some award, but

talk to kids that are thinking about it, but don't feel they could do it.

I like

that they can always become recreational veterinarians, like

the rest of us livestock farmers.

That's how I like to think.

Yeah.

But you can also tell 'em, you know, I struggled with this.

So here's the things you can do is, number one, don't give up and then,

you know, learn how to study, learn how to do a few things and, uh, you

know, you can reach your dreams.

Did you ever consider being a small animal vet or was that never on the table?

Yeah, I actually, when I, uh, graduated, I moved to Ukiah and,

uh, the only, the guy that hired me did nothing but small animal.

And I, I'd done the, uh, The dude, ranch, children's camp stuff and then stayed

in touch with the owners of that place.

We had 60 horses there and I'd take care of 'em in the

winter and I knew those people.

So I wanted to go back to Mendocino County where I spent all my time.

It was very rural, so I, I saw small animals there and, uh,

it was really a lot of fun.

There was no referral clinic, so you, you man, you took care of everything and you

could pin femurs and, and you get help cuz this guy had been doing stuff a lot,

so, you know, you're on emergency duty and hit by cars and things like that.

And, uh, so it, it was a lot of fun actually, uh, doing that.

And then I started building up enough, uh, you know, large animals,

you know, sheep, cattle, goats, a lot of, lot of horses stuff.

And then the, uh, I bill to put a barn behind the clinic and, and then,

uh, sold that when I got, Job offer over there, but I, I really enjoyed

the, uh, small animal stuff too.

And, uh, you, you never know what your comes through the door there.

And, uh, so it was, it was exciting and fun.

I will, we're gonna ahead go ahead and move into our cussing,

cussing and discussing segment.

So this is kind of a free for all of whatever we wanna talk

about on any given episode.

And listeners can enter there cussing and discussing entries.

If you go to the show notes, you'll find either our speak pipe or you

can leave us a voice memo or an email address and we'll read it out for you.

Katie, what are you cussing and discussing this week?

So, you know, I have a, a newly six year old child and I swear to God that

kid brings home an entire rema paper from school every day, which is its own

thing, but she rolls them up sheet by.

she can't, I mean, she has a folder, she has a backpack, but instead

she rolls them up and then she folds them in half and puts them in

the front pocket of her backpack.

And when that pocket is literally jammed full, then she starts putting them in

the main pocket of her backpack, but she still rolls them into a tube and folds

them, and then puts them in the pocket.

So it's like a bunch of tiny

diplomas.

Yeah, kind of.

But it'll be kind, you know, 25 drawings and then that one paper that needs a

signature, or she's gonna get kicked outta kindergarten, and that's just gonna be

the end of academic career right there.

I, I don't know.

It's, and I asked her why she did it, and she looked at me

like, what else would I do?

And I just, okay.

Like I, I don't want to be that mom who's like, you know, crushing her little tiny

baby spirit, but also, What the hell?

Hey children.

Yeah.

And are they all vitally important to her?

Do you have to keep everything or you Uh, yes.

Sneak the art there.

The back door.

Oh yes.

Yeah.

Very important.

Yes.

We lost a pompom off one the other day and the cat took it and it was, it was bad.

. Uh, it was a crisis.

Yeah.

Alright.

So my cussing and discussing for this week is the fact that the more people

we talk to, and I realize this after our mind blowing episode today, the

more people we talk to, the more I realize how much I don't know, which

is fantastic because there's so much in the world to understand, but also

frustrating because it's all out there and I can't get it all in my

brain and I don't know so much stuff.

So it's probably a ha ha, what is it?

Glass half empty, half full situation where depending on the day, it's both

exciting or frustrating that there's so much information out there that

you just can't even process it all.

. That's a good

one.

Arlene.

John, do you have anything to share with us?

Anything bugging you these days or are we, uh, we're gonna sign off for this week?

Uh, no, I don't think so.

I think, uh, uh, you know, the more, uh, you get towards the PM of life, I think

you realize you don't know all this stuff.

You don't know.

I mean, Jesus.

And, uh, and, and things are often a little more complicated, you know,

than, than you think, but that doesn't prevent, you know, some things from

happening that are good and then being able to completely, uh, you

know, assimilate or understand that, you know, sometimes it takes a while.

But, uh, no, I think, and then ideas, new ideas take a long time to get

into, uh, . In fact, you know, uh, the, the way that these, I'm gonna

try to do a survey to find out how many animals around the world.

I know there's a lot of different countries doing it.

I got one from Iran the other day.

They're doing the squeeze thing.

So this, the fact that it hits social media, they're not getting, the

owners of the animals are not getting educated on this from veterinarians.

They're actually a veterinarian that be me, put something on the

internet that had some science bases to it and then shared it.

And that's the new way that a lot of things are being learned.

So that's a, and and it used to be you, your vet would tell you

this or tell you that it's, it's, it's going too fast for that.

And in fact, it's better because, uh, there's a broader audience, especially

if it's something you can do yourself to help a particular situation.

So I think that's the value of the, uh, internet, social media, if it's used.

in a positive way.

It can be problem solving.

Solving.

Yeah.

That's a point.

So that's all I'd say is that, uh,

yeah, cuz like you said, it's, it's something that you can do, that you

can fix for the, for the person who is looking at an animal and thinking,

well, it's probably going to die.

You know, this is, this is something that you can try and you don't, if

you can't afford for the vet to come or you don't, don't feel like there,

it's gonna be any help, then yeah.

You've, you've got something at your disposal that you can at least give it a

shot, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think if we could get more of that, you know, and then make

that accessible to the subgroups or whatever, that would utilize it, uh,

that would be a positive, uh, thing.

It's a, it's a sort of a, uh, telemedicine without the doctor

Yeah, that's great.

But

it's telling you something to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, we don't always wanna search our own symptoms up on the internet.

But yeah, if there , there's, there's ways to, there's to get help out

there if you, you know where to look and what's what's safe to try.

So Katie and I wanna thank you so much for joining us here today, and if

people want to find out more about you and your work, where should they find

you online?

Well, I don't know.

I don't have my own website.

I have, uh, you know, uh, the manual of Equine neonatal Medicine.

I guess we have a website there.

And then the Equine and Comparative Neurology Group, I'm still in that

uc Davis, uh, in, uh, you know, my emails, j Madigan uc, davis do edu if

somebody has some questions or wants, uh, something, you know, sent that way.

And my company that, uh, our little company, it's an LLC so

that we can pay our taxes and do everything is loops rescue.com.

And you could send a message, uh, to me there and.

, whatnot.

So that, that might be one way of doing it.

Yeah,

that's perfect.

Thank you so much

for joining.

Yeah.

Well it's been a pleasure and uh, nice meeting you.

And

we won't start lambing for a few more weeks, but once we do, I'll

get some videos cuz I'm sure we'll have at least one lamb.

It'll need squeezed.

And if we don't have any that need it, I'll find one and do it anyway.

Just , because it'll be a hell of finding a calf, so.

That's

right.

Yeah.

All right, well, great, great, uh, visiting with both of you and take care.

Great.

Great.

Thanks John.

Thank you so much.

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