Good day, mates.

This is Paul Comfort, and you're listening to the Transit Unplugged

podcast from the Land Down Under.

I just returned from a 10 day trip to Australia.

23 hour flight there, 23 hours back.

10 days on the ground, visiting three amazing cities.

Melbourne, the land of great coffee and the world's biggest

tram network, Yara Trams.

Then we went to Hobart, Tasmania, the island just south of the mainland, where

we spoke at the Bus Industry Confederation Conference and went up Mount Wellington

and got to see amazing sights there.

We went up to Brisbane, the Gold Coast, the Sun Coast, closer to the

equator, where I got to speak at the AusRail conference, their national rail

conference, and see their beaches, etc.

Just an amazing country, and you know, Australia.

There's so many things that are different, right?

But you know what?

So many things are similar, and that's what we found out during our 10 day trip.

Out of that, we're going to come to you with five amazing podcasts.

That's right, five podcasts from Australia, where you can really

learn about what's going on there.

I was able to record some great interviews, including today's with

John Storms, the Managing Director at Transit Systems in the state of

Victoria, and Mark Peters, who is the Executive General Manager of E

Mobility and Fleet Innovations at Transit Systems for all of Australia.

While I was there, I also got to do some amazing things like visit the

Steve Irwin Zoo and hang out with the kangaroos and koala bears and

even see a Tasmanian devil or two.

It was a great time.

We're going to bring it to you on these five podcasts and two

episodes of Transit Unplugged TV.

Now with over two million views on our YouTube page.

Check it out in January and February.

We're going to show you what we saw while we were there and

you can enjoy the fun with us.

Now, on to today's episode.

John Storms, Managing Director at Transit Systems, a major contractor there in

Australia, and Mark Peters, who is the Executive General Manager of E Mobility

and Fleet Innovation at Transit Systems.

He and I did a joint presentation together at the BIC conference, and I

was able to visit John Storms at the garage, at which he is General Manager.

His operation, big operation.

Zero vacancies.

He is completely full and has a line of people out the door, so

to speak, wanting to work there.

He's going to tell you how he's created an environment where people want to come

to work and are very interested in being part of the transportation industry there.

We'll also talk about accessibility there and the transition to zero

emission buses, which they are well on the way to doing there in Australia.

They're focused on it.

I actually got to drive a battery electric bus, a 40 foot bus.

I used to have a commercial driver's license and, they showed me how to

work these battery electric ones and I was able to drive it around the yard.

You'll see that on one of the episodes of Transit Unplugged TV.

But today, we talk to these two amazing leaders on what's happening

in transportation in Australia.

Come join us in the Land Down Under.

John, man, we just took a great tour of your operation here.

This is awesome.

Yeah, thank you.

We're really, really proud of what we, what we do and

what we're going to do here.

You were telling me that you really have like a hundred percent retention

rate for your, for your employees here.

That's amazing.

Yeah.

When we started coming out of COVID and myself and the majority of the new

leadership group, we realized that, you know, that would be a problem if

you, if you don't have drivers, it's really hard to operate a bus company.

So, you know, we, we decided the strategy had to be to

become the employer of choice.

So we decided, you know, we need to identify who our best recruiters

are, and those recruiters are the people already in your lunchroom.

So, our business has a real focus on people.

I don't say that as a cheesy sales pitch, but we genuinely put a lot of focus on

the people that want to be here and I think that retention rate is reflective

of us getting the balance right between the commercial realities of running a

public transport organisation and having enough emotional intelligence and empathy

to realise that it's really about people.

Well, speaking of people, I met, a couple ladies in your driver's class.

I got to go in and meet them, as you know, and tell me about the program you've

got now where you're trying to get more women into the workforce and bus drivers.

So we've partnered with Women Can, who is an organization that supports

opportunities for women, and we've opened up a couple of positions here

where we're going to train a person that's never driven a bus before,

we'll train them, to get to the stage where they are an accomplished bus

driver and, and part of the team.

And I think that's a great initiative to give women an opportunity that may

not have looked at this industry before.

Yeah.

It's, especially the driver pool and mechanics have largely been

a male dominated, workforce.

So I think that's very exciting.

It's because being a, being a bus driver is an awesome job.

Yeah, I think it's rewarding.

I think, you know, it's, it's an honest living.

It's, it's a worthwhile, career and, and the more people that get involved

and the more people we can, we can tell is, is, is a great career.

I think the better off we're all going to be.

I love your focus on people.

I mean, it's, it's refreshing One of the other programs you

have that's really focused on people is your Sunflower program.

Tell me about that.

Yeah, absolutely.

We're really proud of what we did with that hidden disability program.

I think we have an obligation to ensure that public transport

is accessible to everyone.

You know, whether you've, you've got a visible disability, no disability,

or a hidden disability, you know, we've, we've got a huge commitment

in this organization to make sure the entire organization understands what,

what having a hidden disability is and how we can help those people get

onto our public transport service.

It's pretty interesting to me.

Your trainer was telling me it started at Gatwick Airport in London?

Yeah, absolutely.

So there's a lot of history behind the Sunflower program.

There's a great website and Emilia, who you met earlier, is an

absolute champion and a believer in this program, um, and so are we.

And hidden disabilities are so important.

You just don't know what's going on for some people.

and if we can, if we can be aware as an organization and as a transport

provider, I think that's a good thing.

If you've completed the training, and you've, you're certified in

understanding what the process is, you get a lanyard, and that gives a sign to

the person that has a hidden disability, that they can actually approach you

and you've got an understanding of what might be going on for them.

And you told me, like, all of your drivers and most of your

staff are all have that training.

Yeah, absolutely.

We're at 90, I think it's 97 percent of all our staff are now trained.

I think as an organization you've got to commit, it's not about ticking

a box and going through a process.

I think you've genuinely got to believe in the program and commit

to it to doing it properly.

That's great.

It's the, my, my last book I wrote, The New Future of Public Transportation.

I have a chapter in there about, what a future leader in a post COVID world

looks like in transit, and at the core of it is compassion for our passengers

is what I believe, and that's what should motivate us, and I think that

leads us to make the right decisions.

We do, like Stephen Covey said in his book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective

People, begin with the end in mind, and the end really is the passenger, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

It's all, you know, for us we're always reflecting on what does our

customer experience really look like.

We put a lot of time and effort into analysing feedback we get from passengers,

feedback we get from the department, and just, you know, you've got to be aware

of what sort of level you're offering.

Yeah, so, we just walked the yard, you've got a great yard out there

and you have a lot of, tell me about your bus fleet and your focus on,

you're looking at hydrogen now, huh?

Yeah, so we've got the first two hydrogen fuel cell buses in Victoria.

We're really, really open minded about what, what technology is available

and where that's going to lead.

you know, those two buses are designed and manufactured here in Australia.

They, you know, perform outstanding.

I think it's a fantastic product.

We refuel them every three days as opposed to the diesel buses

that get refuelled every day.

I think we're, we're not flooded with choice when it comes to the bus, but

I think the challenges moving forward or around the infrastructure on how

you, how you refuel a hydrogen bus.

Even from a battery electric perspective, I think the challenges

are in what does the yard look like?

What does the infrastructure look like?

I think the bus is now, you know, I think we've gotten over all the range anxiety

and we certainly are flooded with choice.

There are lots of products out there.

The challenge is going to be the infrastructure on a site like this.

It's 46, 000 square metres.

How do you electrify that?

Yeah, although it looks like you've got a lot of electric right out

there with the trains coming by here.

Yeah, if we could just run a power line from there to here, we should do alright.

So tell me about yourself, your background, where you say you're

not from here, where are you from?

I was originally born in Belgium.

My family emigrated to Australia when I was about 7, 7 or 8 years old.

I'm an accountant by trade.

Certainly haven't had many accounting jobs in the last 20 years, but I love people.

I think every business is about people.

This business is about people.

It's not about buses.

I love that.

I agree with you.

Yeah, yeah, it's for too many people it's about the equipment or about the

funding or about the technology, but that's not really what it's about is it?

No, I think a bus company is one of the easiest businesses to run.

If your bus is clean, has fuel in it, and a driver, and it's on time,

you are 95 percent of the way there.

I think our strength and our success as a business will come from our people.

That's great.

And what do you see for the future of public transportation?

I mean, we're a few years out of COVID now, there's a lot

happening with the technology.

Where do you envision public transportation here in Australia going?

Look, I think the population definitely needs to grow to take

advantage of what's available.

I think the public transport system is great.

You know, I think we're limited by the number of people that are

actually in these high density areas.

And as we grow as a country and as a population, I think public transport

can only get better and better.

And I've read somewhere that Melbourne's on a path by 2030 or something to

maybe even past Sydney for population.

So this area is really growing.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would not disagree with that.

And I think that's an exciting time to be part of Melbourne and certainly

public transport in this state.

Yeah, see, Melbourne has been voted, I think, seven years in a row the

most livable city in the world.

And I love Melbourne.

I mean, one of the things I love about it is where I'm at, like, there's

a coffee shop like at every block.

I mean, it's just, this is a great place to live, isn't it?

Yeah.

I love Melbourne too.

I wasn't born in, in Australia, but I, I, I certainly agree.

It is, Melbourne is the most livable city in the world.

It is the sporting capital of Australia.

It is the fashion capital.

It is the food capital.

Um, I think it's a great place.

Once you overcome the The four seasons in one day, I think

this is an incredible place.

That's hilarious you mention that, because we were just walking, you know, we rode,

we were downtown yesterday, and we were like, okay, it's summer now and now

it feels like it's winter, in one day!

Yeah.

What's that about?

Just because it's on the ocean or something?

Look, I think it's, you know, it's a it's a running joke to most people that

aren't in Melbourne, but I think it's it's the thing we love about the city.

You know, you always have a jacket in the car, you just never

know what's going to happen.

. Well, thank you so much, John, for spending time with us and opening up.

Yeah, welcome to Open House to see everything and meet all your staff.

I'm very impressed by them.

You've got a great team here.

No, thank you, Paul.

Appreciate it.

I'm sure, you know, they'll agree they've had fun meeting you today, too.

And I think they genuinely believe that this business is about people.

I think that's definitely where our success is.

After doing this interview with John in Melbourne, I flew to Hobart, Tasmania to

give a talk at the Australian National Bus Industry Confederation Conference

with our next guest, Mark Peters.

And right after we got off stage, Mark and I sat down to talk about how to improve

transit in Australia, the transition to zero emissions, and the changes in the

Australian transit industry landscape.

Great to be here in Hobart.

Tasmania, part of Australia, and I'm here at the BIC conference, the Bus

Industry Confederation Conference, which is their big national bus

association, and I just walked off the stage after having spoken to the crowd

on Transit Trends, and I did it as a co presentation with my friend Mark Peters.

Mark, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Paul.

Great to be here.

Yeah, we had dinner the other night.

I found out Mark's favorite city in America is?

Nashville, Tennessee.

That's right, man.

He's a big country music guy and, and, you know, you don't mind

me saying this, I'm sure, but he had tickets to go see Pearl Jam.

And what happened, Mark?

I'm at the big conference in Hobart, so I'm about a thousand kilometers away.

Yeah, they were in, Sydney, right?

In Sydney, they were in Sydney, yeah.

So we're here, as you know, on the Transit Unplugged Tour of Australia.

We started out with three days in Melbourne, where Pearl Jam

played while we were there.

There were people all over with the t shirts on.

Then we came here to Hobart, Tasmania, which is an island south of the mainland.

And it is a state in the nation of Australia.

And we got to meet with, the CEO of the transit system

here and talk to her as well.

And, Mark though, is, tell us what you do, Mark, so you can say it better than I can.

So, my portfolio includes the national operations, so we operate through six

states in Australia, so I oversee all of the, all of the bus operations,

the asset management, but I've spent the last four years, doing the zero

emission transition in a different role.

I've recently started a new role, and thankfully I've able to, was able to

retain that portfolio of the zero emission transition as well, so, I now have a

general manager for e mobility and fleet, I have I'm a National Infrastructure

and Delivery Manager doing the charging and the infrastructure, and I have

five managing directors that manage great businesses across the country.

Now in your kind of a national role you've been involved in a number of projects.

They're able to talk about it.

Something called the Bus Industry Task Force, which came out here, and that,

the topic really interests me, and I think it will people all over the world.

Tell us a little about that, Mark.

Sure.

So there was a change of government, state government in March 2023 and

the new Transport Minister Jo Halen.

In New South Wales?

In New South Wales, sorry, yes.

Jo Halen commissioned an independent bus industry task force.

Having been the Shadow Transport Minister for a long time, she

knew that there were opportunities out there to improve the service.

So she had commissioned a report, independent of the government,

independent of the transit agency.

So it was an independent, report.

And they ended up delivering four reports.

one of them was, in response to a serious accident that we had here.

in Australia, in the Hunter Valley in New South Wales.

so the task force quickly shifted and did a, and did a safety report as well.

So, there was report one, two and three and also the safety report.

So that's the background to it.

And, What, the chairman, John Lee, was very focused on delivering

positive outcomes for the customers.

and he had identified, many areas across, the city of Sydney, where he would term

the phrase, Uber suburbs, where there was no options of public transport.

and the only way to get anywhere was either to drive or Uber.

He acknowledges and, and it says in the report that we just need to do better.

We need to do better network planning.

We need to invest in, in public transport.

And that was one of the key findings was that bus, buses pull their weight in

terms of moving people around the city.

But they weren't getting any love from the funding bucket, so the report

identified that bus was just heavily, heavily, underfunded for a very long

period of time, so, we're, the third report was only just released, so we're

pretty keen to see what the government and Transport for New South Wales, the

transit agency, do with that report.

There were so many recommendations that come from it, driver wages was

an important one, and particularly in New South Wales where they earn about

3 4 percent less than other States.

But not only that, even if they were all on the same rate, we really

need to do better with our drivers.

We need to promote their presence to the community, improve their profile,

and we just listened to the anti social behaviour session just before ours.

And we really need to lift the profile of drivers right across the industry.

Another one was, another recommendation that's pretty close

to my heart is contract management.

So, our contracts previously have been, they were simple contracts, 50 odd pages.

Now they're around 600, 700 pages.

Holy moly!

Yeah.

For you to come in as a contract

operator

of bus

service.

Yes.

600

pages!

Yes.

Wow.

It adds cost, I imagine.

It does.

It adds cost, it adds complexity, and if you pulled 400, 450 pages

out of that contract, it won't change the base of the contract.

The operator will still have to deliver the services.

So there's a focus, a recommendation from the task force to improve and

simplify these complex bus contracts.

And also, the rec, the, the task force recommended that operators and transport

for New South Wales, do better from a relationship point of view and, in the

report that uses the term, us and them.

Mm-hmm, and work towards more of a partnership model.

I love that.

Yeah, that's key.

Yeah.

I've said that in the U.

S.

a lot of times contractors are viewed as vendors and we're, you know,

contractors are not vendors they're standing in the shoes of the transit

agency operating the service in a way that the average passenger doesn't

even realize there's a difference.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, so, well, that's interesting.

We'll be interested to see if the government takes action on that, and we'll

follow up with our listeners on that.

one of the other things I wanted to mention, you, you mentioned

that, your portfolio now includes, zero emission buses.

Tell us what's happening there, is there anything happening with

hydrogen, how is battery electric working here, those kind of things.

Sure.

Our electric bus transition started, we, we kicked off, kicked off with four buses.

in, on the 1st of July 2019 and, and we operated those buses for probably

2 years and, and then the decision was made that the transition is happening

because those buses just worked perfectly.

we had some range anxiety at the start but that was quickly dissipated and, and

we just released them out into the wild.

Today, we operate 119 electric buses across the country, and we also

operate 4 hydrogen fuel cell buses.

So we operate 2 Adelaid and 2 in Melbourne.

Me personally, I think there's a place for both technologies.

I saw the one in Melbourne by the way.

You did?

Went to that garage, yeah.

You did?

Yeah.

That's out of our West Footscray, depot.

Yeah.

Yeah, I definitely think that there's a place for both technologies.

We've been doing a lot of work in tenders and building a lot of scenarios

and depending on the operation, so for example, at our Leichhardt

depot, We don't need hydrogen.

Buses come back with 50, 55 percent state of charge.

They're only doing 135, 150 kilometers on average per day.

Oh, okay, on a shift, yeah.

Yeah, so there's no, there's no place for it there.

But we've been building schedules and some of the schedules

come back maximise efficiency.

Some buses come back with 510 kilometre blocks in them, 470 kilometre blocks.

You just can't do that on a battery electric bus and you don't have

the time through the middle of the day to be able to charge it.

They're just out there all day.

Hydrogen can deliver that efficient solution.

Another positive aspect about hydrogen that doesn't get spoken

about a lot is for congested depots.

So with hydrogen, you've got a hydrogen refueling site, which is similar to your,

to your, your diesel refueling area.

So you've got your de, you've got your diesel fuel tank, you've got

your pumps, you've got your bows.

with hydrogen you've got a very, very similar thing.

So.

You can have storage, storage tanks with tube trailers, you can have your

refueling, and buses can come in to a central refueling point and then go and

park in an unobstructed part of the depot where you don't have charges or gantries

or, yeah, you've just got your regular traditional, hard stand to park on.

So, yeah, I think there's definitely a place for both.

You mentioned that you're playing out scenarios and figuring things out.

Talk to us about the role of technology and innovation and how does that help

you deliver really good service and a better customer experience outcome,

which I know you're focused on.

Yeah, so we, just about every bus that we operate has a

system on it called GreenRoad.

GreenRoad monitors the drivers and gives them real time feedback on

their performance for harsh braking, harsh accelerating and cornering.

And, if we, if we can improve that and improve driver scores, and we, we turn

it into a game, we turn it, we, we, we call it gamification, and we like the

drivers to compete against each other to get a good score on Green Road.

If you're getting a good score on Green Road, you're delivering a

smooth, comfortable ride for our customers, and that's, that's a good

result for the customers, it's a good result for us because it improves

our customer satisfaction survey results with the government, so, it's

a good, it's a win win for everybody.

So, that's, That's delivering really, delivering a really good

outcome for us, as is our ADAS and fatigue and distraction monitoring.

So there's a forward facing camera that does collision avoidance for

vehicles and for pedestrians, and then there's an inward facing camera for,

for driver fatigue and distractions.

So that's awesome.

Yeah.

It's a fantastic piece of kit.

Has it improved your safety performance?

Yeah, yeah.

We're, we're, we're trialling them at the moment, but.

We've seen some alerts that have come through, and if that person

had stayed on the road without management, it could have been, could

have had catastrophic circumstances.

But yeah, we're really working with the technology to be able to improve

comfort and safety for our passengers.

Mark, thanks so much for spending a few minutes with us today.

We wish you the very best, and the next time you come to Nashville, let me know.

I'll come down and join you.

I'll be looking for you.

Thanks very much.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Transit

Unplugged with our special guests John Storms and Mark Peters.

Hi, I'm Tris Hussey, editor of the podcast, and coming up next week, we're

publishing a day early on Christmas Eve with a very special episode.

Our own award winning radio journalist Julie Gates turns the tables on

Paul and interviews him with a look back at 2024 and ahead to 2025.

This will also be our first video podcast for Transit Unplugged.

Look for the video on YouTube and Spotify, and the audio version in all the usual

places you find Transit Unplugged.

Transit Unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

At Modaxo, we're passionate about moving the world's people, and at

Transit Unplugged, we're passionate about telling those stories.

So until next week, on Christmas Eve, ride safe and ride happy.