Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the founder of Borderlands.

I'm the host.

I'm a roadrunner right now and I'm loving it.

My trail shoes are getting dusty.

I don't want them to be dusty, but I'm not unhappy today.

I've got Taylor Bodine with me.

I'm stoked.

Got another episode for you.

Here it comes.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still.

All right.

Like I said, my guest today is Taylor Bodine.

He's the lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run.

I think it's the best website, the best.

I'm even going to call it a movement within running right now in terms of bringing community together and celebrating great gear and sort of championing the advancement of gear.

And so I'm always stoked to have Taylor with me because I love not only his insight, but just the bigger, let's say, organism that he's a part of Believe in the Run.

We've done a lot of fun episodes together, mostly focusing on one brand at a time.

And last week we did three.

And it was a ton of fun to do normal Norda and Speedland the same episode.

And you all love that.

There was a lot of great feedback on that.

Some wild, committed, normal Norda and Speedland fans out there.

And I don't know that I got that from Brooks or even Hoka.

Hoka was so established that people were basically just saying, yes, of course you should do a episode on them.

But the normal nordispeedland constituency was stoked.

Today is going to be different, though.

I need help finding the perfect shoe.

I actually really hate buying gear, if I'm honest.

I want.

I.

I love the idea of researching, researching, researching, but the moment I buy it, it means I'm done and I get to wear them.

And that's fun.

But so much of, like, the buildup to the gear is almost as much fun as running in the gear itself.

So I do get some, like, buyer's anxiety.

And so the moment I spend my money, the search is over.

It's time to go running them.

I do enjoy running, obviously, but gear is sort of like anxiety inducing.

So I've been.

I've been texting Taylor a lot while here in Paris.

There's this cool store here.

It's like constant 50% off of shoes and the stack of shoes is changing every day.

So I'll go in there and see what they have and I'm curious, like, you know, that discount or, you know, do I pay full price?

I'm training for the Paris Marathon, but I might.

I'm on the wait list for Paris Eco Trail, which is a trail run, a 50 miler.

It's two weeks before the Paris Marathon, of course, getting myself in trouble with that timing.

And so we'd landed on a shoe.

I was like, okay, I'm going to buy this shoe.

And then I thought, oh, no, there's this other one that I really like too.

And then I can.

I.

Can I get one shoe that does both?

And so we're just back and forth, back and forth.

And so I thought this would be a great episode because I bet I'm not alone in this.

Not everybody is going to go out and buy three pairs of shoes or four pairs of shoes.

Some of you are like me.

Like, if you're a buyer of shoes, you're going to buy one pair, you know, every six months, maybe every year, every 18 months.

And so you want to make it count.

So before we get into that episode, though, I'm doing a run with Billy Yang and florist Gearman on January 18th.

We're calling it the Speedboat 5K.

For any of you who have ever texted that you're going to run Speedgoat and you've been auto corrected to Speedboat, now you have an event.

It's just supposed to be a fun run.

Come set a PR for your slowest 5k ever.

The goal is to have fun and be around Billy.

Super stoked on that.

We're gonna then do a live podcast recording with Billy at the University of Utah, where I taught entrepreneurship at the David Eccles School of business in Garf, room 1425.

All are welcome.

You do have to register, and that's on Ultra signup and the links will be below.

Okay, here we go.

Get ready.

For me and Taylor Bodine, it's too AM Too.

All right, Taylor, you're the guinea.

You're the second, but I'll play the guinea pig because that was the.

That was my best first take I've done yet.

I want this to be a radio show someday, which in the world of podcasting is somewhat of a step back because, you know, podcasts are the future, but I'm, you know, playing all these songs in real time, hitting all of these buttons and having you here.

So thanks for enduring this experiment with me.

Welcome.

Thank you.

And honestly, I enjoyed it.

Kind of gets me in the mindset too, rather than just sitting down in the conversation, dropping in.

Yeah, yeah.

But also I.

I appreciate your.

Your intros and the Too damn cold to run.

And I've been feeling that lately.

Every once in a while.

Yeah.

And so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I appreciate it.

You did such a good job.

Yeah.

I'm impressed.

Thanks, man.

Thank you.

I wrote that song, that piece last year, and released in the first episode that I did with Elsa Jaworski of the podcast.

And I was just making myself laugh, and I thought, you know, that's so true.

Like, how it's too damn cold to run.

And then I played it all through the summer and, you know, didn't make sense.

And I'm stoked that we're back in the cycle.

Yeah.

To where it does make sense.

It is too cold to run right now.

Really got to psych myself up in Paris.

It's rainy.

But are you getting out much right now?

I'm trying to have been dealing with a little bit of an injury that I just.

No, I should take, like, a full week off, but I really.

It's really hard to, like, take two days in a row.

Then, no, I should take a third one, but I really don't want to.

And then I'm back to where.

Where I was at.

But so I am getting out there, just not as consistently as I wanted to.

And kind of our topic today.

I was also reminiscing of, like, I.

When I traveled back to the Midwest for the holidays, of, like, I have to pick from this big wall of shoes behind me, of, like, what's going to be the best bang for my buck type of option, going back to the Midwest on different terrain.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm excited to get into this topic, and that's fun.

Okay.

So my.

My anxiety, as I said in the intro, is around.

I love.

I love the hunt.

I really love the hunt.

And, you know, to put it in hunting terms, the kill.

I don't love the kill.

I love the hunt.

You know, I'm in it for the.

Oh, it's fun.

What could that shoe do?

Could I wear that shoe?

And if I did that shoe, and the moment I purchase it, there's.

There's some.

Some.

Some level of disappointment that it's over, but stoke to get out and do the thing that I'm most in love with, which is to go run.

Yeah.

So.

So let me publicly present in a little bit more detail what's on my plate right now, and I want you to help me find the shoe.

Talk about some of the shoes that you've already recommended to me on text messaging, all that Sort of stuff.

And then I gotta bring you up to speed on why I didn't pull the trigger on the one that I thought I was.

Okay.

Um, okay, so Paris Marathon.

I as many know, I'm, I'm a trail runner at heart.

I, I believe I'm still a trail runner.

While I'm out training on the road.

That's still like who I am.

That's where, that's how I identify.

I think that way.

But I really starting to feel like this ambition well up in me to do great at the marathon.

And to me, great would be like really great would be 3:45.

That's my kind of like a stretch goal.

For me, uh, my, my fastest marathon ever was 4:30, but that was the first time I had ever ran a marathon.

And that was, oh, 15 years ago.

But yeah, since then I've, I've improved quite a bit as a runner on.

And I built this fitness and habit and so I feel like it's just within reach.

So I need the shoes to get me to my pr.

But at the same time, because my heart is as a trail runner, if I can get into Eco Paris, which is a 50 mile, I'm on the waitlist for the 50 mile run.

The 50 mile run starts just outside of Paris and it's mostly on trail.

It's about, it's 3,000ft of gain across 50 miles, which I don't know where they.

I don't know how you get it in around here because there's not much gain to speak of.

There's lots of hills, but.

All right.

And then it ends with a climb up the Eiffel Tower.

And that's where this came on my radar a few years ago.

I know, it's, it's amazing.

And this came on my radar a few years ago when Katie Scheid won it.

I saw her like, making the final run up the Eiffel Tower, and I was like, what in the world is that trail runner doing on the Eiffel Tower?

And it turns out it is a trail run.

It just ends there.

Okay, so my.

A race is the marathon, unless I get off the wait list for Eco Trail, in which case I'm running a trail marathon.

I don't have the money for two pairs, two different pairs of shoes.

Right now.

I have the money for one.

And so I'm on the hunt for one shoe that I could do in both and be pretty happy with that.

Okay, so there's, there's, there's the setup.

Where does your head go with that.

Well, first of all my head goes to like it's the best time to be a consumer and the worst time to be a consumer because there, there are so many options and there's a lot of good options at that.

We've talked about that on some of our former podcast of like there's legitimately a lot of good options.

And with the Believe in the Run team, we were just down in Austin, Texas for the running event.

And that's nice kind of the event where we get to see a lot of what's coming in the next year.

A lot of like closed door type activity too.

Of like here's what's coming in the next couple and that kind of stuff.

And so, and that makes my mind go wow.

Like I think today is a hard time to be a consumer, like I said.

But it's going to increase.

It's going to be increasingly hard because on paper like if most of people who buy shoes don't go to the brick and mortar stores all that often, but it's going to be more important to be doing that kind of thing and getting a shoe on your foot because almost every shoe looks very similar on paper.

Using the same textiles for the upper, very similar, very similar midsole material.

The foam you're feeling underfoot.

A lot of trail shoes especially are going with like the Vibram Mega Grip or their own type of outsole.

So a lot of it is like, it's strikingly similar but it, you won't feel the difference until you have them on foot.

And so that's where I feel like my job too as a professional in this space of like being able to filter through all that is so important and it's going to become more important than it has been for consumers because we want to inform consumers to make the best choice for themselves because ultimately running is about experience.

Right?

Yeah.

And so do you know any of.

The stats on how often the average runner buys a pair of shoes?

I don't know that most of our consumers are.

They tend to be more of like the gear head type people and they want the latest and greatest.

Yeah.

But also a lot of people who read our long form articles are ones in this scenario.

They, they type in, they might type in trail shoe for so and so or they hear of a shoe like the Speedgoat, which is like the most recommended but in, and in this case your case of like not what I would recommend at all actually.

And so.

Right.

But if that's the only thing you're hearing, you're going to type in Speedgoat, read a few different reviews, and maybe pull the trigger.

Maybe not.

And so, yeah, it makes it difficult, but also fun.

Like you said, the experience of finding that shoe for you is a fun thing for not just you.

And I like a lot of people, but if you, yeah.

You can end up being disappointed even if you found a good shoe, or you can end up being disappointed because it's not at all what I thought it was going to be.

And so that's Right.

Yeah.

So that's, that's where my head goes.

Yeah.

Is do all this research, get it, and then be like, you know, like, I, I worked some, I've worked some with brands like, you know, the Merrells that I would wear.

I, they, they provided them craft at one point, provide, like, so I've done that and I, and I enjoy that.

But then it's, you know, I don't get to go pick.

It's like, on some levels, it's easier.

It's just like, okay, we want to work together.

Send me your shoes.

I'm not picky.

I'm stoked on this.

I genuinely stand behind these things.

But now that there's like, okay, I got to open my wallet again, I'm like, I, I just feel like I forgot what this, how, how anxiety inducing this can be because I buy it and put it on, and I guess that REI will take them back used.

I don't know if the brand's direct will, but I don't like to do that.

Like, by the time I open my wallet, I just want.

I'm, okay, it's time.

I'm.

It's time to run.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like you bought a mattress.

Once you unfold that thing, it's your.

But, yeah, and then that's exactly.

I mean, that is nice that, like, REI will do that.

But Running warehouse will also honor, like, 90 days.

You can get it.

Okay.

Try it on for free.

They'll send you a free packing list, descent or mailing list.

Okay.

Label descended back, like, those kind of things.

And so, like, even the online shopping can be.

You can have somewhat of the experience of what it would be like in a running shoe store where you can try it on kind of risk free.

I mean, you have to buy it up front, of course, but then you can send back and get your full refund.

Yeah.

But, yeah, so, yeah, it's just.

Yeah, for me, it's fun.

But I also remember the experience, like you were saying of when I was Just a poor small town kid.

My family had to make the choice of like even to buy a pair of running shoes or not.

And I remember like my grandma chipping in every year in the fall to get me one pair of running shoes.

And so of course at that time I was thinking I just want the ones that look the coolest.

Absolutely.

But back then even like I haven't.

Grown out of it.

Exactly.

And like, so that'd be like what, 15 years or more ago.

And that experience then there was only like three choices to choose from really.

Yeah.

And that was from a Foot Locker, you know, of like.

Yep.

Yeah.

And so but nowadays there are so many shoes.

We've just, this last year of trail shoes, we've reviewed like almost 60 different pairs of trail shoes from various different brands.

And yeah, it's, it's hard to filter through it all.

And I'm just going to plug believe in the run here because we, yeah, we, we never take any monetary, we don't take any money for any reviews.

And so if you're looking for a source, I am biased and I think we are the best.

But if you're looking for a source to get information, just, just be mindful of that, that there are many sources out there that take ad money for a what would be called an honest review.

And so like even our founders, they turned down like I believe, I believe it was an offer of like tens of thousands of dollars for a launch of a particular shoe which would require them to be not as open or honest with the review of that shoe that they would be.

And they turned it down.

And they turned it down.

And that, that's happening around the industry.

And so it's important to also find sources of information that are legitimate.

And you can find like on our particular site you can find a reviewer who you identify with.

Maybe you have the similar foot shape, maybe you run a similar pace, maybe you run on similar conditions and you can kind of find our profiles in and kind of play match with that.

And then you can find which reviews they've been on, which shoes they've liked, which shoes they've had more negative feedback from.

And yeah, I just think it's more important to be honest and experience it for yourself too.

Yeah.

Well, okay, so speaking of foot type, you know, I have historically and up until Today, as a 41, almost 42 year old man, I, I want the ones that look the coolest and I would sacrifice function.

Talk to another friend, Matt Trappy.

He said it in a way that was perfect via Text.

It was like, yeah, I'm not really a product guy.

I don't care.

You know, I'm not an elite runner.

I just, you know, I want to look.

I want, I want to look cool.

Yeah.

I want to love what I'm looking at.

And I, and I.

But I do, going into my 40s, like, you know, my, my version of like a midlife crisis is I want to do better than ever.

I believe I can do better than ever.

When I recall my dad being 42 and I think, man, I don't even think, you know, he was not very mobile.

And here I am, like, feeling.

I feel as good as I ever have at 42.

And I think, okay, maybe I can turn this on and have a really great decade in my 40s of faster and faster times and further and further distances and all that sort of stuff.

But you absolutely can.

Kind of a fat foot.

Yes.

I.

I'm a coach too, so, like.

Yes, you absolutely can.

Yeah.

Yep.

Oh, well, thank you.

Yeah.

Um, okay, so I've got a.

I've got a fatter foot.

It's not a.

It's not the widest foot out there, but it's certainly not.

It doesn't do well in Solomons.

I know that for sure.

I can tell you.

They don't do well in Solomon's.

It looks good in Solomon's.

Even the Merrill AP5s, which I loved.

Yes.

As my foot started to swell, even.

Even a size up, I would have still kind of been spilling out of it, you know, as my feet were swelling late in the hundred miler.

And I don't know if there's a shoe that can solve for that, but I need something a little bit wider and I need something that works on.

Let's say this eco trail is.

It's.

It's equivalent.

It's forest running.

It's not mountain running, it's not desert running, but it's, it's.

It's dirt, you know, in the trees.

It's very.

I mean, over here in Europe, that's just a common term, forest running.

So it's forest running.

And so I need to shoot a work for force running.

And it doesn't feel like it.

So then that doesn't feel like it needs to be a super technical shoe.

And then I.

But I also want it to be something that could serve me and my goals for the marathon.

So you've.

You threw out a few shoes to me early on.

Do you want to hit up.

Hit on some of those?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then I also Want to put the caveat out there of like you can pretty much, if you know the experience you want in a shoe, I want it to feel soft or I want protection, those types of things.

I need a wider forefoot, those types of things.

And you can pretty much get it as long as you hunt for it.

Or just ask, ask people who know and have been in shoes.

There's something for everyone's foot and experience they want basically these days.

And so when you came to me right away off the top of my head, I thought of, okay, you need a little bit of versatility because you're going to be on different terrain.

You probably want some cushion because no matter what, whether it's 3 hours 45 minutes or if you're going 10 hours in a 50 miler, like you need some sort of protection.

And if there's varying terrain of pavement and trail, it just needs to be a little more versatile.

Plus the outsole, that's where many people get hung up on for better or for worse of like they sometimes when you get a trail shoe you just think you need the deepest, gnarliest lugs.

But some of the best shoes we have have only three and a half millimeter lugs.

And so you can get away with a lot with having like fairly minimal.

And I would say that you, in your experience and what you're going to be going for, maybe you don't need a trail shoe per se.

And so those are kind of more thoughts that have come through my head.

And one of the ones I think that I recommended to you was the Topo Athletic Ultraventure.

And this is the Ultraventure 4.

And so one of the reasons I recommended this right off the top of my head because Topo Athletic is known for making wider, more anatomical foot shape shoes.

That's their basis, low drop, so not necessarily zero drop.

Some of them do like ultra.

There's no drop from, from the heel to the toe, it's just a flat level.

But this one has 5 millimeters which is very typical for a trail shoe.

And many road shoes, like even a road marathoning shoe, I think the Alpha fly has something.

I'm maybe not the alpha Fly, but many others are down to like the 4 to 6 millimeter drop even.

And so a lot of trail shoes fall in that category too.

So it has a wider foot for you.

It actually cinches up really nice on the back half.

Like the midfoot can cinch up and the heel is nicely padded.

So it's just both comfort oriented because of the fit and then underfoot it's pretty high stack.

But even for if you're going on trail and even moderately technical trail, it has some stability because it's a little wider.

And this foam is pretty versatile.

It's not going to be like the bounce your face off foam you find in, in some of those marathon racing shoes, but it's going to feel lighter, airy and still cushioned.

But then once you get to the outsole, this has like, yeah, it's enough to do well on most trail terrain, but it's also shaped in a way that it's going to do fine on gravel roads or pavement if needed.

You're not going to be feeling a bunch of rubber knobs sticking out from your foot.

So it's going to feel comfortable on a lot.

So that's one shoe that.

And we named this as one of the.

And real quick, we haven't done an episode.

I was going to say we haven't done an episode on them yet.

High level.

Where they, where.

I mean, I've heard of them over the years.

I've heard they're competing with Ultra in certain, you know, versions of their value proposition.

Where are they headquartered?

Are they American?

Yes, they're American.

And Tony Post is the guy.

Oh, Topo.

Topo.

And he's one of the first guys who was with Vibram.

And they're out.

Easton.

No.

Yeah.

And so.

And I can't remember who they are.

They might be under deckers.

Okay, maybe I'm.

That might be a correction I need to make.

But they were more recently bought out in the last couple years.

Okay, I'm looking.

Which was big for them because it took their shoes to a whole new level.

Oh, it's given me everything in.

Yeah.

While you're looking, I'll just say, like Topo Athletic has surprisingly like shown up on a lot of our year end reviews this year and past years, a lot of it was because of the fit and now they're starting to get more modern foams being more versatile shoes.

So if you're looking for something wider and they have a bunch of stack options, you could get basically the same experience but at a lower stack.

And a lot of their road shoes are proving to be pretty good too.

Okay, so, so, so far all I've learned is that he went from, he went to college in Tulsa, I think.

Okay.

Oh, there's, there's just not a lot of.

There's no Wikipedia on them out there.

Yeah, they're not Massachusetts unless you're already in the Running space or for like hiking.

They've been really popular, super comfortable.

So yeah, that was one of our most versatile shoes.

Great Road to trail shoe.

Okay.

You could do.

Got it.

Some of everything in it.

And I think I recommended the Saucony Endorphin Edge.

Wait, no.

Endorphin Rift.

The Edge is the race model.

Okay.

This one, I recommend it because it is more generous up front if you're.

If you've ever been in a Saucony road shoe too.

They're kind of like in the Asics and Brooks realm where they.

They do have a little bit of a wider forefoot as compared to an Adidas or a Nike.

And so that's a good option, but it's also quite, quite soft and you get some good energy return for those big miles.

And the lugs they see they are a little bit deeper, but they're more rounded.

So they're pretty versatile.

So that's another shoe I recommended to.

This one was one of our.

I was surprised.

Yeah, Well, I was surprised to see Saucony.

I mean, the most purchased.

The single most purchased shoe in my life is the Saucony Jazz.

I probably bought six of those since I was in high school.

Gosh, more than that.

So to see them in trail, that Saucony Jazz is so cool.

That's.

I actually want another pair as we.

As we speak.

But it's not surprised to see them.

Do they have a big market share in Trail?

You know, they were doing really well in Trail for a while.

Um, they had the Paragon line and so.

And they're up to, like, I don't even know what they're up to now, but they've had many iterations and if you weren't going Speed Goat for a while, you were likely going Saucony Peregrine and so that's kind of where they were.

But they've really tapered off in the last few years.

Even though they have the athletes, they have all the means, but really they've been focusing on what's called their Ultra line, Exodus Ultra.

And it's been a good shoe, but it's kind of like they feel like they're getting into a Brooks cycle like we talked about on the other one of like, they do something.

My mind Saucony lives at the same.

Is on the same shelf in my brain as Brooks.

Totally.

Yep.

Which I'm just.

For those who have listened to these podcast between you and I, just be looking out for Brooks.

They have a great lineup.

They.

They said they listened to the Podcast and they said we hit it spot on.

That's awesome.

So.

Oh, that's from the product developers.

So yeah, so we hit it spot on and they're going to be coming around with, oh my gosh, full lineup next year.

How fun is that?

I know.

Full lineup, updating some of our favorites and some that I reference and I referenced this shoe to you.

I recommended it.

This is the Brooks Catamount 3.

So like next year Brooks is going to be updating this shoe.

Really versatile shoe again, kind of all those same ideas.

This one's based off of one of their road shoes, the Hyperion line, which is with their race model, some training models.

Yeah, more up tempo type feel.

And this is when I recommended to you.

It's going to be a lower stack, but it does have, you know, this nitrogen infused foam.

So you're going to get some good character from it.

It's got some good shaping to it and it's going to feel lighter than some of the other shoes I just recommended.

But that I would recommend this more for your trail race than for your road race.

So.

So this is like a true trail shoe.

This was like our honorable, honorable mention at our year end reviews of.

Okay, yeah, I saw that.

Yeah, just a good overall trail shoe.

But I'd say this one's more trail centric as opposed to like that topo athletic ultraventure that I recommended to you.

And so like even in just those options that I threw out, like there's a, there's a huge variety.

You could have a lot of stack and cushion can go there.

You could have more of a tempo feel, lighter on foot, but still versatile.

So those are just the trail shoe options.

Let me, let me tee up this next one.

In this next one, the one that you haven't shown yet, of the three that you sent me that day, is the one I was going to go get.

Okay.

And I was having some other conversations with people on Instagram about it and they were like, oh, you're going to love it.

You're going to love it.

So let's go ahead.

And we talked about North Face before.

Yep.

So it was the 500.

The Alta Mesa 500.

Is that what it's called?

Waiting for that.

So, and I saw that and I thought, okay, I like it because here I am making decisions without it being about performance.

I got to hang out with Jean Marc Dejan.

That was super cool.

So like, like, oh, that's cool.

Like a, you know, something that he's had his hand on.

And then Zach that's awesome.

Yep.

Katie, you know, one of my favorites.

So I was about to go buy it and because you'd sold me on it.

But go ahead and give us the high level on it.

Well, like I just said, the Brooks Catamount 3 was our runner up of the overall shoe of the year.

This one won our high stack SHO shoe of the year and okay.

It's one of the reasons I recommend it to a lot of people is because a lot of people are looking for a kind of a more open fit.

Like you were saying.

This one's fairly generous in the forefoot, still has a good lockdown on the backside, which is to me the most important.

If you can lock down that midfoot and the heel, not as important in road running, but anytime you get on trail, that's going to be great.

But this foam, this foam, it's very modern and a lot of shoes are going to be going this way even in the trail sector of it's a blended foam.

And so they're using some of the foam that you would see in a high end race shoe, some of the foam that you would see in a typical daily trainer or just a typical trail shoe like the Speedgoat and eva and they blend it together to get some of the best properties.

And so it's going to be soft and bouncy from.

That's going to be from the more high end foam, the peba and then it's going to be more durable and consistent than you would with like if you just went for a marathon racing shoe.

And so it's.

You're going to be able to last longer.

The experience you get from it is going to be fairly consistent throughout the life of the shoe.

And it's just, it's just a great overall shoe.

If I reach for a shoe these days just like on a whim and I'm not reviewing, this is one that I've grabbed for the most over the last few years.

It's rare that I get a hundred miles in a shoe because we just have so many shoes.

Like, I should show you my corner over here of boxes.

Oh my gosh.

But I got like well over a hundred miles in this shoe this past year because I just loved it so much and it could be used on so much light trail up to the more moderates stuff like forest.

When you said forest, like this would be a great one.

And I mean they have the surface control rubber.

Like I said the lugs aren't super deep, but that's okay because you're going to be hitting a lot of more versatile terrain.

So this was, like, from our reviewers.

We just love the shoe for a lot of different things.

And I've taken this on a marathon distance run and more.

It.

It feels.

It feels very good.

And for.

I'm leaning back to that one again.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be a great one.

And there's, like, there's options.

Like, if you.

If you like the idea of the shoe, but you want lighter and faster, you could, like, bump up to that race model that's kind of mirrored with this.

Or if, like.

Yeah, I just want the comfort aspects.

I want consistency.

I want versatility.

That's where this one comes in.

It's meant to be a good crossover between terrain and distance.

And like, I.

I can go decently fast, like a 3:45 marathon.

That's not slow, Josh.

So, like, you have to have a shoe that you know is responsive.

And this one can roll fairly nicely.

The only downside is this one might be a little heavier than some of the road options you would look at.

Okay.

All right.

Let me tell you what caught my attention and ruined everything.

You saw Rachel Drake get the JFK record.

Well, I, like, obviously, I'm a Utah homer.

Like, I love my Utah runners.

And Rachel and Tyler Green moved to Salt Lake City and big fans of theirs.

And so Nike has just come on my.

Been on my radar.

And so I thought, okay, before I make the purchase, I went over, you know, they.

Nike has some really incredible stores here in Paris.

And the one on the Champs Elysees, which is a place that I do not enjoy going because it is an absolute chaos.

The Nike store is so cool.

On Champs Elysees, it's like a.

The first floor is a museum, and then you go up to, like, the third floor, and that's the men's shoes.

And I just.

Seeing the trail stuff, like, they're just like, if design is the only thing that matters, I'm probably going like, Nike's the shoe for me right now.

I just love their colors.

I love the way they do it.

I've never put them on.

I don't know how they feel.

But this shows that investing in right athletes who go out and do a great job did work for me.

Yeah.

And sometimes I say that that will never work.

And I'm wrong right now, because seeing Rachel Drake do that, liking Tyler and Rachel living in Salt Lake, Nike's caught my attention.

And I don't.

So I've never actually heard anybody go, go deep into Nike.

So I'm just curious.

Yeah.

If Nike fits anything I'm looking for.

So here's the thing.

The, the shoes that I've been saying to you or recommending, I'm coming at it from like, you're probably going to train in it too and you're going to run in the race.

That's right.

And probably continue running in after.

But there is this.

There are so many different categories these days and so.

But if you want a trail racing shoe, like some of our favorite shoes that are dedicated to trail racing can do very well in the training sector too.

I know you have lots of road shoes that you can be wearing since you're doing mostly pavement.

So these would be like more of your.

Some of your train bigger training days that might bridge between different terrain.

But you bringing up Nike and their ultra Fly has been a really popular shoe this last year.

A lot of people like grab it because it just looks clean.

But what's, what's really awesome about this shoe is that has their high end foam, but it's more stabilized because of the carbon plates that they have in it.

And so this is a carbon plated shoe, but it's going to be a more muted experience than if you grabbed for the vaporfly, which is kind of what this is based off of.

Got it in some sense.

And so, and so there's different technology in a trail shoe, but this is a shoe that if you're looking for like I want to do both and go long.

This is their ultra trail running shoe and it can do very well, especially on the, like the gravel.

It does feel best if there's a little bit of dirt or something underneath.

But you can run fast road miles in this too.

And it's going to be inherently stable because of that fly plate in there.

So if you're looking, maybe this wouldn't be the most budget friendly option, but you can do lots of great racing.

It's super comfortable.

Zoom X.

That Zoom X foam is known for just like, yeah, high performance, but like super comfort as well.

So this is a really popular shoe for a lot of people.

But along those same lines, like Asics has done the same thing.

They took their most popular trail race or racing road racing model and they created a trail shoe based off of it with a few adjustments to the foam.

It's basically the same foam adjustment to the plate not to necessarily be as propulsive, but focus on stability.

And that really moderated outsole too to be versatile.

So those options are out there too because again, 3:45 marathon.

And I know there's like you might.

Have you ever been in a plated shoe?

I have put carbon plated insoles in before, but never a shoe where they're built in.

Yeah.

So it'll be, it'll be a little bit of a different experience.

Even though that's a cool idea.

The whole modular experience is such a cool idea.

It'll be a little bit different of experience and just like pure fun.

And if you go for the trail version of it, being able to do both, it's going to be a little bit more of a moderated experience on purpose too.

And so.

But these two, like, they're equally fun for different reasons.

And yeah, just good, comfortable shoes, but also fun, fast, can do a lot of different things whether you're doing road or trail.

Can I show you one more?

You're looking, of course, like you have.

Do you have a question?

I have question, but I want to let you, I got to let you be you.

Okay.

But those shoes, those are going to be top end dollar right now.

But if you're looking for something that has a similar experience that you're not going to break the bank on.

This is the second version of the Tekton X.

They have the third version out, which we've talked about, which feels great.

Oh, right, right.

But fair.

Quite different shoes.

This one still does have some carbon plates.

Two carbon plates running side by side more for stability, but you do get some pop.

But you also get these two different foams that create a really balanced experience.

You're getting some cushion, you're getting some propulsion, getting some stability, and it's just a really solid shoe.

All of the Tectonics series have been on our year end reviews just because they're a solid shoe for a lot of different things, including racing and training.

But this one's going to be cheap right now.

Like if you're looking for a cheap but very high quality experience, like, yes, the Tectonics 2 would be an awesome one.

And this, this particular one, I think I remember Robby, our senior editor, I believe in the run.

He said this might have been hoka's best shoe overall that year that it came out.

And they had some racing options that came out too.

I think Thomas agreed with that.

Like they would take this out on long runs and temple runs, even for a road run.

Very cool.

But it does have that Vibram light base outsole.

So.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Sorry.

That was a lot.

So my, my question, and maybe this is where we kind of land the plane on this.

So I'm gonna go out and try on the ultimates of 500s again.

Yep.

But I'm gonna go try on those Nikes.

Yeah.

And you, what was the asterisk you put on those?

Those would all.

You'd only recommend as the ratio not to train every day for most people.

That would probably be the use case of.

But you can go out and do great long runs.

Again, the plate, the carbon plate experience and those shoes is.

Isn't going to be as of much of a wow factor, but it's gonna.

You can certainly train at them.

You just might not want to do every training run in it, even though it'd feel good.

Okay.

Um.

All right, so I want everyone to know that if you've got questions for Taylor, call us, call me and leave a message.

You.

You've heard the number.

I'm gonna play the jingle here in a second.

But this is a lot of fun.

I think this is incredibly useful because when you're opening your wallet for these shoes, you want that to count.

Yeah.

You know there are people out there who will buy 3 and 10 and 18 pairs of shoes.

I gotta imagine that, that that's the exception.

I probably wanna do some, I wanna do some listener research here to figure out, you know, the average number of shoes people buy because then that's what makes Believe in the Run so valuable.

Like we started this portion of the conversation with of like a good trusted shoe review site is so critical when you're gonna spend 120 to $400 on a pair of shoes.

You want to do the deep dive.

You don't want to waste your money.

So yeah, I think this is really, really helpful conversation.

Well and like we, we just finished our year end review, so a lot of these shoes you can find in there.

But yeah, when we were looking at our best value category.

I'll show one more shoe.

Before we go on to the next part.

Our best value category is taking price and performance into mind.

Most of our categories, we're just thinking pure performance in that category.

Price is just one of those things we put on the wayside, but we know that value is really important.

And like again, for me, I was even before, like the day I said yes to reviewing, I had two pairs, three pairs of shoes, one pair of shoes that was given to me, one pair of road shoes and one pair of trail shoes.

So like I understand value for sure, but that was the Solomon genesis.

And it's hard because interesting.

A good value pair of shoes these days is actually going to be like you were saying 120 and two years ago, that was our threshold.

Like it had to be 120 or lower.

It's really hard to find a pair of shoes, a new pair of shoes for that.

But the reason why the Genesis Salomon Genesis was the best value because it has that high end foam.

It's going to be soft, quite versatile and it has a matrix upper that's not going to like blow out on you after 200 miles, which a lot of those more budget friendly shoes will do, especially on the trail side.

And it has their, like their standard very good outsole.

Again, the lugs are only like probably three and a half millimeters, maybe four millimeters on this one.

So it can be quite versatile.

So it's versatile, can use it for a lot of things.

It's going to be comfortable, high quality.

So.

Okay.

But yeah, so that might be a good thing to ask your listeners too of like, what is a price range you would be willing to spend or typically spend.

Yeah, good point.

Yeah.

Because there's a lot of.

You can find shoes for a hundred dollars and if that's what you need to do, that's what you need to do.

Like that was.

That's been most of my life.

Yeah.

But there's a quality jump once you do get to that kind of, that minimum threshold of which is like $140 these days.

Yep.

Okay, let's, let's, let's answer a couple of questions and then let's do.

We had talked about doing the Believe in the Run year end.

Fortunately we've still got a few weeks left.

Can we push that to the next episode so we can.

I don't want to rush through that because you're in top 10 is worth a full episode.

Yeah, yeah, agreed.

And the, like, our, our article is published already.

If people are like wanting to go look at it.

Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.

But I just want to do it, I just want to do it justice because it's a lot of fun and it's, it's a wide breadth before we get back into doing brands.

Maybe early next year, like this exception and then that article.

I just want to give time to a couple more questions and I don't want to rush through that.

So that's good with you.

No, that's totally good.

I'm going to, I'm going to go into the questions.

All right, get ready.

This is, this is how you remember the number to call.

Run more.

Six, four, nine.

All Right.

First question come.

These both came by text.

I want you, you all to call and leave your voice message so I can play it on the air.

If you have a question for Taylor or if you have something that pertains to the bad runners, take that.

I do.

With Brian Peterson.

Either of those are great.

I just love hearing from you and it's fun to be able to address it together.

The first question for you, Taylor.

Someone who's just getting into trail running for the first time, they don't want to spend, they don't even want to spend 120, but they may, it sounds like they may not be able to get away with it.

Yeah.

First ever trail shoe purchase of someone who's thinks that they're going to like it.

They're not fully committed, they're not buying hydration vests, anything like that.

It's just, hey, I've heard that running on trails is fun.

I want to get some shoes that work for that.

Yeah.

The question was, and I'm paraphrasing, what is the absolute cheapest entry level shoe that someone could go run in the, you know, in the canyons in Arizona?

Something like that.

Yeah.

And so part of that is, part of that question I would say is what are you typically running and what have you, have you had success running in?

Because like I believe we said at the beginning of the show, like every brand is showing up with pretty good options these days.

So if you've had some success, like check into some of those brands first.

Like I always wore Asics before I got into trail, but then when I went to look for an Asics, trail shoe is non existent.

And so, but then the popular brand at the time was Salomon.

And, and so I just went with Salomon because that was the popular brand at the time.

But that's not necessarily what needs to happen these days for consumers.

So find something that's been successful for you and go explore that avenue first.

And there's likely.

We were just talking about it too, of like with the HOKA tectonics too of like there's huge clearance sales all the time.

And so not if you're okay with not shopping the latest and greatest.

You can get this shoe, which was at one point like a $200 shoe, maybe even more.

I think it was at 200, but you can get it for like $109 right now on certain sites.

So you should go look that one up, Josh.

So just like that's being a mindful consumer that way of like there's past year's iterations, especially at seasons change.

So like from winter into spring is a big time to go look at clearance spring into summer, like those kind of times.

So if you can hold out for something like that.

Yeah.

And be on the lookout and be aware that way.

But if you're just looking for like, I want this shoe right now, I want good value.

We just hit on the Solomon Genesis.

It is going to be $140.

But it again, it's one of the best values because it brings performance and quality to a better than average spot.

And so this one's going to do well for you in a lot of conditions.

You can get on basically any trail you'd want to.

Like I'd go run some mountain peaks here with it on.

Like I was in Chamonix too, running around in the shoe a lot.

Chamonix, France.

Big mountains there.

But also I've done some road miles in it too.

And so.

Okay, it's quite versatile.

So you, you gotta kind of think of your use case and if, if you're going to be doing a few different types of terrain or, or yeah, just looking for a more versatile shoe.

And this one is kind of at that price point where it's starting to be, you know, $140 can be quite expensive.

And so.

Yeah.

But um, another thing I would say is depending on your train, like if you're going into the canyon or something, you're going to want a proper trail shoe.

But if you're just looking to get out on some of the more groomed trails, like if you're, I think of Denver for these types of experience of like there's going to be a bike path but then all of a sudden it breaks off into some single track and you might be on that for a couple of miles.

Still fairly smooth.

Yeah.

You can actually get away with a decent road shoe.

And so if you already have something like that's going to be the most sustainable option that can work for both.

And that's coming from like the trail guy who's been in like pretty much every trail running shoe that in the last five years.

And so, yeah, like that can work.

I like that.

Okay, so I'm hearing, look at previous year if cheap.

If you just want to say, okay, here's the cheapest new shoe, but that's still too much for you.

Look at previous year's models.

Yeah.

Consider running in your road shoe on the trail until you feel the need for it.

Yeah.

What about used?

Are there any used websites that you're aware of that you trust.

What do you think about that?

Not websites per se.

And I live in an area where this is more popular.

But there's like used gear stores and so you can bring lightly used gear and they would resell it for a really nice price.

And so like in Boulder, there's like the Boulder Sports Recycler and they have a great variety in there.

So popular that they only accept a certain quality.

So if you could find something like that in your area, that's a great way to one try on a huge variety of shoes and then also get something that you know might have 20 to 50 miles on it, but there's still a lot of life left in that shoe.

And so that's a good call out of like.

And that's also a sustainable model too.

If you're.

If you're cycling through shoes often and you don't want to be paying $150 a pop four, three times a year or more like that would be a good option for sure.

Okay, great.

All right here.

Next question.

It's from Joe Little.

He emailed and said, I love your most recent video talking about normal Speedland and Nordis.

All my shoes.

These are all shoes I'm very interested in trying.

I spent the last couple of months running in the normal.

How do you say, the Kjrock and absolutely love them.

I just found them to be too narrow for my foot so much that I ended up losing both my pinky toenails and a longer effort.

I'm looking to get a pair of Nordas or Speed Lands to try next and was hoping you could point me in the right direction.

I loved the grip, responsiveness and ground feel of the normal shoes and I loved that they were a shoe that made me want to run fast.

I am now completely torn between two Speedland models, the GS and GL as well as the Norda 01 and 02.

I'm looking for a shoe that fits more like an ultra but performs like the normal shoe.

Any recommendations?

Here's.

Can I get.

Can I get my non expert take on that?

Please do.

At first it's that he has a cert.

He.

It's.

It feels like he's wanting those shoes to be something that may not be their value proposition.

And so what I'm hearing is like, oh, I love those shoes.

I.

I wish that they could be the shoe that I need them to be other than the shoe that they are.

That's me playing therapist.

But what, what would you as an expert, how Would you respond?

Well, I, I think you're on it.

He knows the experience he wants and yeah, you're right.

He wants, he wants this particular shoe to provide the experience in his mind.

And so yeah, and I mean that's a great thing to know what you want and being able to identify like, oh man, this isn't quite doing it.

It's also good to know that there's other options out there.

But to his like exact use of.

I found the same thing.

If you want a slightly wider fit but a very similar experience.

High quality.

He's exactly.

He'd be happy to know that the Norda O2 would be the one I'd recommend because it is a wider forefoot, it is more rounded and both the O1 and the O2 and their upcoming 05 race model, if that's what he wants to get into.

Um, they all kind of have that.

Okay.

And so like that's where I would say it was his name.

John.

Is that right?

Uh, Joe.

Joe.

Sorry.

Joe.

So Joe, I would say that yeah, you're exactly right.

If you want a very similar experience that you would get from the shock, I would say go to the O2 first and that's going to provide some of that ground feel.

But if for a longer effort, longer ultra, a lot of people are looking for more protection and you would find that in both the O5, which is going to be a little quite a bit softer, more bouncy and.

But there's no plate that you have to mess with.

You still get some ground feel.

And the 01, which I do have over here, but it's, it's more.

It's going to give you a more protected experience.

But because you want ground feel and you know that about yourself, I think the O2 would be a great option to go to.

There's also like in a very similar category.

You have the Merrell Long sky too.

It's going to be.

That was where my head was.

I had some of my favorite runs have been in the Long sky and this.

Yeah, this is, this is one of those shoes.

Like I should have said this during our last question too of like the Long sky to the original version, not the Matrix version.

This is the matrix version.

That's one of my favorite all time shoes and it's at a really good price point right now.

So yeah, this would be a good one too because the forefoot is a little more generous, a little more rounded in the toes than you would see in the Chiroc.

See, you can see just A slight difference.

And that makes all the difference for me.

Most often I would go for this, the merrell Long Sky 2, just because it fits my foot a little bit better.

I have that pinky toe issue as well.

And so.

But you're going to get a fairly similar experience.

A little more protection and grip from.

From the Merrell.

But overall.

But then the downside is if you, if you have any heel issues, the matrix on here is really thin, this heel cup, so that might cause other issues and blisters on the heel.

Whereas the O2, Joe would have a more.

A more padded experience like you had in the Shirak.

And so.

Okay, there we go.

Man, that's.

That's good.

I love that you brought that Merrell shoe out.

I really like when Joe said that it makes him want to run fast.

I had never used it that way, but that's what I mean when I say, like, I'll refer to shoes as F1.

Like low profile.

Like built for speed.

Makes you want to run fast.

I do feel like those light low stack shoes just.

There's a psychology to those that make you just want to go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

It's kind of like when you put on track spikes or cross country spikes as compared to your daily trainer.

You just have that light feeling and ready to go.

Yeah, it's like Pavlov's dog.

Yeah.

You.

You feel fast before you're even running.

Exactly.

Yep.

Yeah.

All right, well, hey, I hope you guys reach out with more questions.

That, that was fun.

And Taylor and I are going to be back next time to talk about believing the runs year end top 10.

It's a very worthy discussion.

It's a fun discussion.

If you're enjoying the gear conversations, that's a place to do it.

So, Taylor, thanks for joining me today.

Glad that you're here.

Thank you.

Always a pleasure.

All right, man, see you next time.