1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,419 How can we make workplaces better places to be? 2 00:00:03,630 --> 00:00:05,550 for employees, for leaders. 3 00:00:05,630 --> 00:00:09,519 How can we make companies better for the world? 4 00:00:09,859 --> 00:00:15,329 Today's guest, Jess Stuart, describes herself as a former high 5 00:00:15,339 --> 00:00:17,370 functioning, burned out executive. 6 00:00:17,380 --> 00:00:21,719 She worked in HR and climbing the corporate ladder, being high 7 00:00:21,719 --> 00:00:26,240 achievement, looking for external validation for her work led her 8 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:30,490 to physical, mental, emotional, spiritual burnout at the age of 31. 9 00:00:30,985 --> 00:00:35,775 After which she got her life back together by traveling around the world, studying 10 00:00:35,785 --> 00:00:42,614 with Buddhists, with practicing Buddhist monks and nuns all over the world, and 11 00:00:42,644 --> 00:00:49,624 came back with a renewed sense of what needs to happen in Western business 12 00:00:49,624 --> 00:00:52,854 world in order to create sustainability. 13 00:00:52,914 --> 00:00:57,089 Now I love this conversation because about eight years ago, I helped co 14 00:00:57,089 --> 00:01:01,869 found a digital wellness company, WellStart Health, and we came into 15 00:01:01,869 --> 00:01:07,029 organization saying we're gonna basically help you improve your economics by 16 00:01:07,039 --> 00:01:11,139 helping your people, uh, engage in lifestyle habits, diet, exercise, 17 00:01:11,150 --> 00:01:16,670 stress management, breathing, all the cool stuff, uh, sleep hygiene, so that 18 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:22,975 they Healthier and require, you know, fewer days of, uh, of absenteeism 19 00:01:22,975 --> 00:01:26,645 and, uh, less medical care, which was going to help companies save money. 20 00:01:27,245 --> 00:01:28,115 We didn't make it. 21 00:01:28,745 --> 00:01:30,745 We were not able to articulate. 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:38,180 A message that that really spoke to the needs of the business as 23 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:39,660 they understood it at that time. 24 00:01:39,850 --> 00:01:43,460 And one of the things I love about the work of today's guest, Jess Stuart, 25 00:01:43,810 --> 00:01:45,680 is that she manages to do this. 26 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:46,540 She can speak. 27 00:01:46,540 --> 00:01:49,530 If you go to her website, which I'll, I'll, I'll say it now, 28 00:01:49,530 --> 00:01:55,370 Jess Stuart, s t u a r t dot co dot n z or n z from New Zealand. 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,680 Uh, and it's in the show notes as well. 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,830 You'll see that she talks about making the world a better place in 31 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:05,409 very clear, passionate language. 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,739 And at the same time, talks about the business needs and how the work she 33 00:02:10,739 --> 00:02:16,179 does to help specifically women leaders, but all leaders and all employees. 34 00:02:16,630 --> 00:02:22,870 not burnout, be more sustainable, um, focus on the quality of their 35 00:02:22,870 --> 00:02:26,523 work and their lives rather than the quantity of their productivity. 36 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:32,689 Um, I think it's a message that is very, very valuable and she does 37 00:02:32,689 --> 00:02:39,810 a great job of, of bridging this, you know, altruistic vision with. 38 00:02:40,734 --> 00:02:44,855 The language that is going to get business people to pay attention and pay 39 00:02:44,855 --> 00:02:49,525 for it and get once it's paid for, get people to actually engage and implement. 40 00:02:49,665 --> 00:02:52,545 So this is a conversation that was really valuable for me as 41 00:02:52,545 --> 00:02:55,224 someone who's in the same space and who's learning how to do this. 42 00:02:55,494 --> 00:02:59,065 I hope it'll be valuable for you too, whether you're a leader in organization 43 00:02:59,065 --> 00:03:04,075 or whether you're just dealing with those modern epidemic of more and more 44 00:03:04,075 --> 00:03:07,144 work with less and less to show for it. 45 00:03:07,364 --> 00:03:08,784 So without further ado. 46 00:03:08,784 --> 00:03:11,904 Jess Stuart, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast. 47 00:03:12,664 --> 00:03:13,264 Thanks, Howie. 48 00:03:13,264 --> 00:03:13,804 Nice to be here. 49 00:03:13,924 --> 00:03:16,954 It is gonna be a fun conversation for people, for, for people who 50 00:03:16,954 --> 00:03:21,334 are not, uh, watching on video, you have the most amazing, uh, shirt. 51 00:03:21,334 --> 00:03:22,834 I dunno if it's a shirt or a blouse. 52 00:03:22,834 --> 00:03:28,354 I'm not into fashion, but, uh, you've got, it says love and motion, all these, 53 00:03:28,354 --> 00:03:33,544 all these words, and it feels like you're already, um, sort of ex expressing a lot 54 00:03:33,544 --> 00:03:34,719 of what we're gonna be talking about. 55 00:03:36,784 --> 00:03:37,864 Yeah, I love this shirt. 56 00:03:37,954 --> 00:03:41,584 Um, and I often get a lot of comments on it, even when I'm just studying cues. 57 00:03:41,704 --> 00:03:43,384 People will comment on it when I'm wearing it. 58 00:03:43,684 --> 00:03:46,534 Uh, and, you know, and, and, and it matches your smile. 59 00:03:46,534 --> 00:03:49,354 So I feel like, I feel like there's a, there's a lot of positivity 60 00:03:49,354 --> 00:03:51,544 coming everybody's way today. 61 00:03:51,784 --> 00:03:58,144 Um, I, I wanna start by, um, asking you to, to talk a little bit about a, 62 00:03:58,174 --> 00:04:02,344 the sentence that you, you start your biography in the networking group in 63 00:04:02,344 --> 00:04:07,234 which, in which we met, which is you, you apply ancient wisdom to modern problems. 64 00:04:07,234 --> 00:04:09,514 And can you say a couple words about that? 65 00:04:11,099 --> 00:04:12,064 Yeah, sure. 66 00:04:13,279 --> 00:04:16,789 I guess it was through my own lived experience that I realized that a lot 67 00:04:16,789 --> 00:04:20,779 of our modern problems and certainly the problems I'd experienced, um, 68 00:04:20,809 --> 00:04:24,589 particularly around burnout and this very kind of always on culture that we live 69 00:04:24,589 --> 00:04:29,119 in, um, the solutions to these problems have been around for many, many years. 70 00:04:29,119 --> 00:04:33,469 We've just lost touch with them and I went off in search of some of those solutions 71 00:04:33,469 --> 00:04:35,779 and I guess my passion has always been. 72 00:04:36,094 --> 00:04:40,624 My background been in human resources and a very western people psychology basis 73 00:04:40,624 --> 00:04:46,204 to my career has always been, where does that meet with some of our ancient Eastern 74 00:04:46,204 --> 00:04:49,984 wisdom that has stood the test of time for a reason that can still be applied 75 00:04:49,984 --> 00:04:51,334 in a way that makes sense to the modern 76 00:04:51,634 --> 00:04:52,069 Hmm. 77 00:04:52,429 --> 00:04:55,849 So, um, maybe let's unpack a little bit of the backstory. 78 00:04:55,849 --> 00:05:01,069 So you're doing traditional right, hr, so in, in a Western way, and I, I 79 00:05:01,069 --> 00:05:05,689 assume part of that is the language of that, that people are, are resources, 80 00:05:07,939 --> 00:05:08,389 right? 81 00:05:08,389 --> 00:05:13,219 So, um, tell, tell me about that, that world and, and what, what led 82 00:05:13,219 --> 00:05:15,019 to your, uh, your break with it. 83 00:05:16,744 --> 00:05:18,664 Yeah, and you're exactly right. 84 00:05:18,664 --> 00:05:22,534 You know, we do treat humans as resources and for me. 85 00:05:23,089 --> 00:05:26,809 The thing I didn't realize is that I was my most precious resource 86 00:05:26,899 --> 00:05:28,759 and I was wasting that resource. 87 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:31,159 So I was flying around the country. 88 00:05:31,159 --> 00:05:35,569 I was at all different offices in the car all the time in meetings. 89 00:05:36,019 --> 00:05:39,679 Never any time for me, never any time to rest, to recover. 90 00:05:39,679 --> 00:05:41,299 But I also didn't think I needed that. 91 00:05:41,299 --> 00:05:45,049 It was never something anybody had pitched as part of peak performance. 92 00:05:45,289 --> 00:05:48,679 And eventually I hit burnout, and that caused me to take a step away 93 00:05:48,679 --> 00:05:50,269 from my career and think about. 94 00:05:50,629 --> 00:05:52,549 There's gotta be another way to do this. 95 00:05:52,639 --> 00:05:55,879 There's gotta be another way to perform at our peak and not have 96 00:05:55,879 --> 00:05:57,709 to self-sacrifice in the process. 97 00:05:58,099 --> 00:06:02,149 And so that took me across the world, uh, to train with Buddhist monks and nuns in 98 00:06:02,149 --> 00:06:05,779 various different countries, and obviously witnessed probably what you would call. 99 00:06:06,259 --> 00:06:07,849 The opposite end of the extreme. 100 00:06:08,299 --> 00:06:11,539 And of course, living on a hilltop as a monk, you know, if, if you are 101 00:06:11,539 --> 00:06:15,439 up in the Himalayas and you've got no company car or credit card statement 102 00:06:15,439 --> 00:06:20,329 or relationship or job, there's, it's probably quite easy to be a bit more zen. 103 00:06:20,509 --> 00:06:23,989 And so for me, the passion was, well, where do you take those 104 00:06:23,989 --> 00:06:27,799 two ends of the extreme and put them together in the middle and 105 00:06:27,799 --> 00:06:29,059 do it in a way that's useful for 106 00:06:29,059 --> 00:06:29,509 everybody? 107 00:06:30,244 --> 00:06:34,354 Was, was there a moment of, of clarity about the burnout? 108 00:06:34,564 --> 00:06:37,114 Sort of, you know, like if we were making the movie, like 109 00:06:37,114 --> 00:06:38,614 there would there be a scene. 110 00:06:39,979 --> 00:06:40,879 Yes, definitely. 111 00:06:40,879 --> 00:06:43,819 There's always, I think with, with any of these experiences, there's always a 112 00:06:43,819 --> 00:06:45,949 dropping to the floor scene in the movies. 113 00:06:46,189 --> 00:06:48,919 Um, that was certainly my experience too. 114 00:06:49,219 --> 00:06:54,739 So it was, um, a very physical hitting of the wall, uh, in the middle of a gym 115 00:06:54,739 --> 00:06:57,559 class, oddly enough on my 31st birthday. 116 00:06:57,979 --> 00:06:58,069 Um. 117 00:06:59,044 --> 00:07:03,064 But it was the emotional crashing down of everything else around that that 118 00:07:03,064 --> 00:07:04,534 made me realize what was happening. 119 00:07:04,534 --> 00:07:05,809 And I think in hindsight. 120 00:07:06,319 --> 00:07:10,099 The signs had been there for a while, but I was too busy to notice them. 121 00:07:10,489 --> 00:07:15,379 And so recovering from burnout gave me a lot of time and space to think 122 00:07:15,379 --> 00:07:19,369 about what I'd learned and how to do things differently and to get curious 123 00:07:19,369 --> 00:07:21,019 about another way of doing things. 124 00:07:21,019 --> 00:07:25,189 Because everywhere I looked in the corporate world and throughout my peers 125 00:07:25,189 --> 00:07:28,789 and the industry I was in, everybody seemed to be doing the same thing and 126 00:07:28,789 --> 00:07:30,589 therefore repeating the same mistakes. 127 00:07:30,589 --> 00:07:34,189 And I was surrounded by other colleagues who had also hit burnout and were 128 00:07:34,189 --> 00:07:34,669 struggling. 129 00:07:35,239 --> 00:07:40,339 But now, now for you, you could hit burnout and, and stop. 130 00:07:40,549 --> 00:07:45,319 I, I mean, when I look around, I don't see a lot of 31 year olds stopping. 131 00:07:45,709 --> 00:07:50,929 I see them doing other things to keep going, whether it is, you 132 00:07:50,929 --> 00:07:56,449 know, self-destructive behaviors, drugs, throwing themselves into 133 00:07:56,479 --> 00:07:57,979 climbing the corporate ladder. 134 00:07:58,249 --> 00:08:02,149 Like I can see like the, you know, there's still, there's still a functioning. 135 00:08:02,539 --> 00:08:06,619 Something inside the shell, but there's a lot of misery. 136 00:08:06,619 --> 00:08:10,579 What, what, what do you think made you decide like, I'm not gonna keep 137 00:08:10,579 --> 00:08:14,359 going even though that's, you know, maybe the programming that I received 138 00:08:14,359 --> 00:08:16,189 culturally or familiarly, I don't know. 139 00:08:18,094 --> 00:08:22,354 Oh, and I to, and I'd definitely done that for the years prior to that, I was a 140 00:08:22,354 --> 00:08:28,504 high functioning, burnt out executive, and it was, I, I didn't choose to step away. 141 00:08:28,504 --> 00:08:33,574 It was a forced choice in that my health, it had taken its toll on my health to 142 00:08:33,574 --> 00:08:35,494 the point where I couldn't work anymore. 143 00:08:35,734 --> 00:08:39,634 And so I, I had to have some time off with this physical injury that I'd 144 00:08:39,634 --> 00:08:44,104 sustained, but the emotional injury that unfolded at that same time was the one 145 00:08:44,104 --> 00:08:49,654 that really forced me into having to make a plan B. Um, and so I don't know, had 146 00:08:49,654 --> 00:08:54,334 I not have been forced by my health, I dunno if I would've had the awareness. 147 00:08:54,529 --> 00:08:58,309 Or given myself the permission to step away voluntarily, because 148 00:08:58,309 --> 00:09:00,739 I think that's the problem with a lot of us in this position. 149 00:09:01,009 --> 00:09:02,779 We feel like it's a sign of weakness. 150 00:09:02,779 --> 00:09:03,289 We can't 151 00:09:03,289 --> 00:09:03,829 stop. 152 00:09:04,099 --> 00:09:05,659 We need this job to pay our bills. 153 00:09:05,659 --> 00:09:09,049 We also need to prove ourselves, and we're driven by the achievement. 154 00:09:09,379 --> 00:09:14,179 And so I don't think many of us choose to step away sensibly. 155 00:09:14,269 --> 00:09:15,679 We're often forced to step 156 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,299 away because we've gone too far. 157 00:09:17,599 --> 00:09:22,459 Now, in, in the movie, the, the protagonist who has 158 00:09:22,459 --> 00:09:23,779 this would, would go off. 159 00:09:24,139 --> 00:09:28,189 But trying to solve the, the problem at kind of a lower 160 00:09:28,189 --> 00:09:29,539 level of consciousness, right. 161 00:09:29,539 --> 00:09:32,659 Was that you like, I need to figure out how to get my mojo 162 00:09:32,659 --> 00:09:34,309 back so I can keep climbing. 163 00:09:34,309 --> 00:09:37,849 Or were like, when you went to look for this other wisdom, 164 00:09:39,479 --> 00:09:41,909 I think initially it started that way. 165 00:09:41,999 --> 00:09:44,519 It, it initially, it started as a bit of therapy. 166 00:09:44,519 --> 00:09:45,269 I need something 167 00:09:45,269 --> 00:09:46,319 to help me recover. 168 00:09:46,739 --> 00:09:51,299 I'll go straight to the source and find the most peaceful, calm people I've 169 00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:53,639 ever seen and find out how they do it. 170 00:09:53,939 --> 00:09:58,919 That I think is how it started, but it quickly changed into something different. 171 00:09:58,919 --> 00:10:01,379 It quickly changed into me understanding. 172 00:10:02,224 --> 00:10:02,734 Oh, okay. 173 00:10:02,734 --> 00:10:03,634 There's another way. 174 00:10:03,904 --> 00:10:05,284 There's another way of doing things. 175 00:10:05,284 --> 00:10:07,114 There's, it doesn't have to be this way. 176 00:10:07,384 --> 00:10:11,824 And from that point, which was very early on in the journey, it became a curiosity 177 00:10:11,824 --> 00:10:16,264 to learn more and share more about this with others so that we could redefine 178 00:10:16,564 --> 00:10:20,404 what that landscape looked like and, and what peak performance could be in a way 179 00:10:20,404 --> 00:10:22,324 that made it more sustainable for people. 180 00:10:23,314 --> 00:10:27,334 I love, I love the, uh, the pun of like peak performance in 181 00:10:27,334 --> 00:10:28,894 the west and peak performance. 182 00:10:28,894 --> 00:10:33,334 Like the guy in the mountaintop in, uh, on a, in a Buddhist monastery. 183 00:10:33,424 --> 00:10:35,704 They're obviously very different peaks. 184 00:10:36,154 --> 00:10:40,714 Um, I mean, how, how do you, and this is like I wrote, this is what I wrote 185 00:10:40,714 --> 00:10:43,414 to you in the email when we were talking about having this conversation. 186 00:10:43,834 --> 00:10:45,334 How do you reconcile. 187 00:10:46,014 --> 00:10:50,874 Like the idea of using this, you know, Buddhism or using this ancient wisdom, 188 00:10:50,874 --> 00:10:55,314 which is really, you know, far more encompassing than just success, but, 189 00:10:55,314 --> 00:11:00,084 but sort of the way it's been packaged or commercialized in the west is, 190 00:11:00,084 --> 00:11:01,944 you know, meditate for 20 minutes. 191 00:11:01,944 --> 00:11:04,674 Not for enlightenment, but for focus. 192 00:11:04,794 --> 00:11:09,384 But you know, how, how, how, how did you begin to navigate that and, 193 00:11:09,594 --> 00:11:11,394 and how, how, how has that evolved? 194 00:11:13,204 --> 00:11:16,654 Yeah, I think it's evolved significantly, certainly over the time that I've been 195 00:11:16,654 --> 00:11:21,244 involved in this, and I think it started out as yes, mindfulness and meditation 196 00:11:21,244 --> 00:11:25,294 to give you some reprieve so that you could come back to work less stressed. 197 00:11:25,474 --> 00:11:28,204 I think that was kind of where it started when, when I was sort of a 198 00:11:28,204 --> 00:11:30,214 decade ago embarking on this journey. 199 00:11:30,984 --> 00:11:34,164 I think now it's gotten to a point, particularly with the sporting world, 200 00:11:34,254 --> 00:11:36,414 using this techno technology as well. 201 00:11:36,984 --> 00:11:39,714 It's gotten to the point now where we're talking about this from a performance 202 00:11:39,714 --> 00:11:41,514 perspective rather than a wellness one. 203 00:11:41,514 --> 00:11:46,734 So when we talk about peak performance, Buddhist monks and nuns will talk about 204 00:11:46,734 --> 00:11:50,514 peak performance of our mind from a cognitive perspective in exactly the same 205 00:11:50,514 --> 00:11:54,024 way that we talk about peak performance from a productivity and delivery 206 00:11:54,024 --> 00:11:55,644 perspective in our corporate worlds. 207 00:11:56,004 --> 00:11:57,204 And so I think for me. 208 00:11:57,994 --> 00:12:03,304 It's that middle ground, and I think you're right, it can be mis or misused 209 00:12:03,304 --> 00:12:07,384 in the same way that when we had a big run on building resilience in our 210 00:12:07,384 --> 00:12:11,974 organizations, it was used in a way to then be able to get more out of people. 211 00:12:12,334 --> 00:12:15,454 And I think slowly we're starting to understand that if we are to 212 00:12:15,454 --> 00:12:17,704 get the most out of our resources. 213 00:12:17,974 --> 00:12:23,194 Um, and our people, the return on investment in that is to actually 214 00:12:23,464 --> 00:12:27,004 allow them the space and the time, rather than this being time 215 00:12:27,004 --> 00:12:28,606 away from work to decompress. 216 00:12:29,224 --> 00:12:32,824 It actually becomes part of the work because if we are not integrating this 217 00:12:32,824 --> 00:12:36,454 stuff in our daily life, then we are not gonna be able to come back day 218 00:12:36,454 --> 00:12:38,194 after day and, and perform at our peak. 219 00:12:38,194 --> 00:12:42,604 So I think it's less about getting more out of people and more about focusing on 220 00:12:42,604 --> 00:12:44,764 the quality of what we get out of people. 221 00:12:44,764 --> 00:12:46,774 And I think for me, that's the big difference here. 222 00:12:47,249 --> 00:12:52,049 Between how we've run our organizations and what sustainability looks 223 00:12:52,049 --> 00:12:54,839 like, and that's the difference between quality and quantity. 224 00:12:55,139 --> 00:12:55,219 Hmm. 225 00:12:55,834 --> 00:12:59,764 So when, when you came back with these new understandings, 226 00:13:00,034 --> 00:13:02,554 what was different in your work? 227 00:13:03,259 --> 00:13:07,069 Um, you know, if someone, someone hung out with you or you led a, a 228 00:13:07,069 --> 00:13:09,174 workshop or something, what would they, what would they notice? 229 00:13:11,409 --> 00:13:15,669 I think the biggest difference for me has been my mindset and my approach to this. 230 00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:20,769 So for me, taking space from work was always a luxury item, and 231 00:13:20,769 --> 00:13:23,289 it was something you did as a reward when all the hard work had 232 00:13:23,289 --> 00:13:23,859 been done. 233 00:13:24,309 --> 00:13:24,849 It was a bit of a 234 00:13:24,849 --> 00:13:26,259 self-indulgence as well. 235 00:13:26,259 --> 00:13:28,049 I. And that's why I burnt out. 236 00:13:28,049 --> 00:13:32,069 I think, and this relationship has totally flipped in this space, that 237 00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:35,759 this now becomes the non-negotiable stuff that I do, so that I can 238 00:13:35,776 --> 00:13:37,109 deliver on everything else. 239 00:13:37,409 --> 00:13:41,759 And I'll often talk to organizations I'm working with and say, look, this 240 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:45,839 space and self-care and investing in ourselves as humans, it's not on 241 00:13:45,839 --> 00:13:49,444 any of your job descriptions, but it probably should be because it. 242 00:13:49,924 --> 00:13:53,074 Literally powers everything else that is on those job descriptions. 243 00:13:53,284 --> 00:13:55,114 And I think that's been the biggest change for me. 244 00:13:55,114 --> 00:13:59,404 It's seeing this as part of my work, not space away from work. 245 00:13:59,404 --> 00:14:02,164 It's not a break, it's part of the work because it enables 246 00:14:02,164 --> 00:14:03,604 me to show up and be my best. 247 00:14:03,604 --> 00:14:08,644 And what I've noticed is this whole less is more concept that I think is 248 00:14:08,644 --> 00:14:12,874 so important in this space because we feel like this is gonna cost us time. 249 00:14:13,174 --> 00:14:15,094 But my experience has been this. 250 00:14:15,319 --> 00:14:16,309 Saves me time. 251 00:14:16,309 --> 00:14:21,469 The time I spend doing this stuff, even in my workday, saves me time because of 252 00:14:21,469 --> 00:14:25,249 the effectiveness then I have and, and the sharpness and the energy and, and 253 00:14:25,249 --> 00:14:27,139 yeah, sometimes even the focus as well. 254 00:14:27,139 --> 00:14:32,719 But this is done not to get more out of me, but to get a better quality from me. 255 00:14:32,719 --> 00:14:33,259 So it's. 256 00:14:33,694 --> 00:14:35,344 Quality rather than quantity. 257 00:14:35,494 --> 00:14:38,224 And I think that's where we've gone wrong in our corporate landscapes. 258 00:14:38,224 --> 00:14:42,484 A lot of the time we focus on qua quantity hours worked rather 259 00:14:42,484 --> 00:14:44,674 than quality, value and impact. 260 00:14:44,734 --> 00:14:46,354 And I think that's been the biggest turning point 261 00:14:46,354 --> 00:14:46,504 for me. 262 00:14:47,074 --> 00:14:51,484 So when you say this stuff, what, what, what are the, what are the practices 263 00:14:51,484 --> 00:14:53,284 that you incorporate every day? 264 00:14:55,504 --> 00:14:57,994 So for me, and I think this is personal preference, you know, 265 00:14:58,024 --> 00:15:01,174 everybody is different in terms of how they approach this, but for me. 266 00:15:01,954 --> 00:15:04,984 My go-tos have always been meditation, yoga. 267 00:15:05,464 --> 00:15:06,994 Opportunity to move. 268 00:15:06,994 --> 00:15:10,264 So whether that's a walk on the beach, a kayak, I love to surf. 269 00:15:10,264 --> 00:15:12,364 It's generally something that's by the ocean. 270 00:15:12,544 --> 00:15:15,334 I find the ocean have a, has a really calming effect on me. 271 00:15:15,604 --> 00:15:17,074 Um, mentally and physically. 272 00:15:17,434 --> 00:15:19,024 It's time with people I love. 273 00:15:19,084 --> 00:15:20,494 And that includes the dog as well. 274 00:15:20,494 --> 00:15:21,724 A bit of pet therapy. 275 00:15:22,054 --> 00:15:24,694 Uh, and it's time in nature as well, just being out, um, 276 00:15:24,699 --> 00:15:26,464 walking in, in the forest and. 277 00:15:26,809 --> 00:15:29,389 Having, having that time to re-energize. 278 00:15:29,389 --> 00:15:32,659 And that's my personal preference in terms of the stuff I do. 279 00:15:32,929 --> 00:15:35,539 But I'm often saying to people, it's less about what you do. 280 00:15:35,629 --> 00:15:39,259 'cause we're all different and more about how we prioritize it and our 281 00:15:39,259 --> 00:15:42,769 mindset towards whether we feel like this is an indulgence or a 282 00:15:42,769 --> 00:15:43,429 necessity. 283 00:15:43,954 --> 00:15:50,494 So, so for me, there's, um, like a lot of the things that you just 284 00:15:50,494 --> 00:15:54,124 mentioned feel like there's a, there's a little bit of a hump I have to 285 00:15:54,124 --> 00:15:56,344 get over to get into them, right? 286 00:15:56,344 --> 00:16:00,514 Like, like there's a difference between, let's say meditating and. 287 00:16:02,224 --> 00:16:04,024 Watching some crap on tv. 288 00:16:04,242 --> 00:16:04,504 Right. 289 00:16:04,504 --> 00:16:10,144 The, like, it's easier to go to the crap on tv, which feels like self care, 290 00:16:10,354 --> 00:16:12,724 except by the end it, it, it isn't. 291 00:16:12,904 --> 00:16:15,874 Did you, did you get to a point where the meditation was like, oh 292 00:16:15,874 --> 00:16:18,274 boy, I can't wait the same way. 293 00:16:18,514 --> 00:16:22,024 You know, like, does that, does that shift as you, as you do it? 294 00:16:22,054 --> 00:16:24,754 Yeah, and I think that's the difference for me and I think it's something 295 00:16:24,754 --> 00:16:26,224 I'm often advising other people. 296 00:16:26,404 --> 00:16:28,024 This has to be stuff you enjoy. 297 00:16:28,084 --> 00:16:32,074 If it's another thing on your to-do list that you feel pressured to do, then it 298 00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:35,674 just becomes hard work and it doesn't have then the intended effect it should. 299 00:16:35,944 --> 00:16:39,904 So for me, the practices I have, I've done long enough to not only form a habit 300 00:16:39,904 --> 00:16:42,394 around, but also to notice the benefits. 301 00:16:42,784 --> 00:16:47,914 And I know for me, the benefits of meditating far outweigh the benefits of. 302 00:16:48,739 --> 00:16:50,059 Binge watching Netflix. 303 00:16:50,419 --> 00:16:55,279 So I'm more inclined to want to do that because I know it feels better and it 304 00:16:55,279 --> 00:16:56,299 does me much more. 305 00:16:56,299 --> 00:16:56,599 Good. 306 00:16:57,049 --> 00:16:57,709 I think you're right. 307 00:16:57,709 --> 00:17:00,919 In the early days, it takes a lot of effort to do this stuff, especially when 308 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:02,599 it's new and we're having to learn it. 309 00:17:03,049 --> 00:17:06,079 But I think like any good habit, you do it often enough. 310 00:17:06,229 --> 00:17:10,339 Once you start to see the benefits, that's the motivation to continue to return. 311 00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:12,529 So for me, these things are not a chore. 312 00:17:12,859 --> 00:17:16,099 They're things that I look forward to because of the way they make me feel. 313 00:17:17,269 --> 00:17:21,739 So what, what do you tell people who work in sort of corporate 314 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:26,329 environments, big offices, fluorescent lights, windows that don't open? 315 00:17:26,629 --> 00:17:30,709 You know, la last night as I was relaxing, my wife and I started watching severance. 316 00:17:30,709 --> 00:17:36,364 I. And the, the opening scene, you know, he, he enters the building 317 00:17:36,364 --> 00:17:39,874 and it's like a, like a one minute camera shot of just him walking 318 00:17:40,084 --> 00:17:42,964 through like white, bright corridors. 319 00:17:43,624 --> 00:17:47,974 And, you know, it was very evocative of, of kind of like, not 320 00:17:47,974 --> 00:17:55,564 in nature, not, you know, stuck in this, um, rectangular world. 321 00:17:56,044 --> 00:17:57,634 Um, how can you know. 322 00:17:57,919 --> 00:18:01,849 What, uh, when you work with organizations, do you work just on 323 00:18:01,849 --> 00:18:06,859 the people, like somehow managing to do things or do you also work 324 00:18:06,859 --> 00:18:10,819 on like the, the, the culture, the physical culture, the environment 325 00:18:10,819 --> 00:18:13,429 in which we we're, we're existing. 326 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:15,469 Yeah. 327 00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:16,609 Yeah, you're, you're so right. 328 00:18:16,609 --> 00:18:19,729 I think the environment makes it probably more challenging and. 329 00:18:20,554 --> 00:18:23,224 The environment is often something we can't control as well. 330 00:18:23,224 --> 00:18:26,134 I think we probably have more control over that these days. 331 00:18:26,344 --> 00:18:29,674 With flexible working and hybrid working, we spend more time out 332 00:18:29,674 --> 00:18:30,904 of the office than we used to. 333 00:18:31,684 --> 00:18:35,734 And I'm a, I'm a big believer of focus on what you can control. 334 00:18:36,064 --> 00:18:38,704 And for some people the only thing they can control is what they do on their 335 00:18:38,734 --> 00:18:40,714 lunch break or if they take a lunch break. 336 00:18:40,714 --> 00:18:43,594 So it's starting small, it's getting out of that office. 337 00:18:43,604 --> 00:18:46,004 To get some fresh air and some natural sunlight. 338 00:18:46,334 --> 00:18:48,554 It's taking a walk around the block so you're moving. 339 00:18:48,554 --> 00:18:51,434 If you're sat at a desk all day, it's walking meetings. 340 00:18:51,434 --> 00:18:55,004 It's going to a class at lunchtime or starting your day differently. 341 00:18:55,394 --> 00:18:58,574 And I think sometimes we can't control what we do at at those hours 342 00:18:58,574 --> 00:19:01,634 that we're in the office, but we can control what we do either side of that. 343 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:04,569 And you know, there's all sorts of schools of thought out there around, 344 00:19:04,569 --> 00:19:07,479 well if you get up at this time, you can do X amount of things before you 345 00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:11,469 even get into that, that set environment that will set you up for success. 346 00:19:11,679 --> 00:19:14,889 But I'm a big believer in small steps make a big difference. 347 00:19:14,889 --> 00:19:17,559 And so I think that makes it more doable as well. 348 00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:19,629 So I don't tend to work on the environment. 349 00:19:19,629 --> 00:19:23,529 I work with the people so that they can navigate the environments they find 350 00:19:23,529 --> 00:19:24,159 themselves in. 351 00:19:24,724 --> 00:19:32,524 Hmm And when you're, when you're doing that work, um, I mean, you know, 352 00:19:32,524 --> 00:19:38,314 from from your website, you have such a, a beautiful and holistic vision. 353 00:19:38,464 --> 00:19:42,814 It's not about business, it's about like human life and the planet. 354 00:19:42,844 --> 00:19:47,344 And yet you're working in these very constricted constrained environments. 355 00:19:48,514 --> 00:19:53,644 I'm asking for myself as someone like I, you know, I see what business could be 356 00:19:53,644 --> 00:19:59,704 and the gap between what it is and where, you know, where, where, where I want it 357 00:19:59,704 --> 00:20:02,704 to go and I can find myself hamstrung. 358 00:20:02,884 --> 00:20:06,154 Like I just, you know, I just kind of wanna blow it all up and start over. 359 00:20:06,394 --> 00:20:10,294 How, how do you, I'm assuming that you have, you know, similar impulses, like 360 00:20:10,684 --> 00:20:14,999 what, what, what human society could be and what we could grow for each other. 361 00:20:15,649 --> 00:20:21,289 How do you navigate, like internally this, is there frustration, like, you know, 362 00:20:21,289 --> 00:20:26,329 the small steps that you mentioned, sort of a, a consolation prize or how, how do 363 00:20:26,329 --> 00:20:27,649 you keep your head straight around that? 364 00:20:27,649 --> 00:20:29,269 Because I, I have difficulty. 365 00:20:30,714 --> 00:20:33,054 Yeah, yeah, no, I totally get, get what you're saying. 366 00:20:33,084 --> 00:20:37,404 Um, and I'm in the same boat, so one of the reasons I focused on how do 367 00:20:37,404 --> 00:20:41,304 I support the individuals is from that frustration trying to change the 368 00:20:41,304 --> 00:20:43,734 systems and the way we approach work. 369 00:20:44,524 --> 00:20:46,414 Felt a little bit of a fruitless task. 370 00:20:46,504 --> 00:20:49,354 So my work became how do I support the people in the 371 00:20:49,354 --> 00:20:50,944 environments they find themselves? 372 00:20:51,184 --> 00:20:54,484 And I think we're starting to see a shift in that space on a bigger scale. 373 00:20:54,484 --> 00:20:57,004 You know, with trials of the four day work week and things like 374 00:20:57,004 --> 00:21:00,904 that happening, more flexible, hybrid working, walking meetings. 375 00:21:00,904 --> 00:21:04,564 There is an opportunity now for people to, I'll often say in my workshop. 376 00:21:04,564 --> 00:21:06,899 You know, when was the last time you have had your best idea? 377 00:21:07,049 --> 00:21:09,419 And people are generally not at work when that happens. 378 00:21:09,419 --> 00:21:12,269 They're outside doing something or they're in the shower or their, 379 00:21:12,539 --> 00:21:14,099 their brain is in a different space. 380 00:21:14,099 --> 00:21:17,549 And so I think we're cottoning onto that fact that being trapped in a 381 00:21:17,549 --> 00:21:22,949 windowless room with air con switched to 18 and uh, UV lights is, is perhaps 382 00:21:22,949 --> 00:21:25,319 not conducive to our best performance. 383 00:21:25,499 --> 00:21:30,569 Having said that, though, our businesses are stuck on an old model that we've used. 384 00:21:30,709 --> 00:21:32,959 Pretty much ever since the Industrial Revolution, right? 385 00:21:32,959 --> 00:21:36,559 When we paid people by the hour to work in factories and we are still paying 386 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:42,679 people a salary to do a job in a, in a small cubicle, which feels quite soulless 387 00:21:42,739 --> 00:21:45,949 and expecting them to, you know, be at peak performance at the same time. 388 00:21:46,219 --> 00:21:49,699 And I reckon that if we, for me, work and life is not. 389 00:21:50,209 --> 00:21:50,809 Separate. 390 00:21:51,469 --> 00:21:54,559 I don't believe that life starts when work stops. 391 00:21:54,649 --> 00:21:55,819 I believe it's all the same. 392 00:21:55,999 --> 00:21:59,089 It's all life and work is part of that life. 393 00:21:59,299 --> 00:22:01,729 So I think when we start to see it holistically and we start 394 00:22:01,729 --> 00:22:05,479 to take control as, as a human, what do I do to make this better? 395 00:22:05,779 --> 00:22:08,539 And for some people it is stepping away from the office where they can. 396 00:22:08,539 --> 00:22:11,089 So it's actually, I'm only going into the office one or two days a week. 397 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,159 Because it is that kind of environment and I do my best work away from the office, 398 00:22:16,219 --> 00:22:19,519 or actually I've set myself up a beautiful space in the corner of the office full 399 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:23,059 of plants and all the other things that I love and that helps me through. 400 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,979 So it's taking those little things that can make a difference and often it's 401 00:22:27,979 --> 00:22:31,249 getting away from that environment that makes the biggest difference where we can 402 00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,804 even for that, even if it's just for half an hour as we walk around the block at 403 00:22:34,804 --> 00:22:35,164 lunchtime. 404 00:22:36,034 --> 00:22:36,394 that's it. 405 00:22:36,604 --> 00:22:38,914 So you mentioned that things are shifting a little bit. 406 00:22:38,914 --> 00:22:43,834 Can you talk about some of the, the best trends you've seen, like the best news 407 00:22:43,864 --> 00:22:46,204 since, since you've been doing this work? 408 00:22:46,204 --> 00:22:46,264 Um. 409 00:22:48,694 --> 00:22:52,144 Yeah, I think it's interesting because we, when I first started 410 00:22:52,144 --> 00:22:54,719 doing this work, we were having this conversation very much as. 411 00:22:55,879 --> 00:22:57,289 This is a wellness conversation. 412 00:22:57,289 --> 00:23:00,169 It's, it's nice to have, it's sort of individual accountability. 413 00:23:00,169 --> 00:23:03,859 We'll put some free fruit in the staff room and we'll maybe do a few yoga 414 00:23:03,859 --> 00:23:06,799 classes around mental health Awareness week and, and that was kind of it. 415 00:23:07,159 --> 00:23:11,269 Whereas I think now the conversation has moved more towards this being 416 00:23:11,959 --> 00:23:15,439 a sustainability conversation, a resource management conversation. 417 00:23:15,439 --> 00:23:17,659 We are seeing people the same as we see. 418 00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:22,309 Our, our most precious resources, I guess, and the return on investment therefore 419 00:23:22,309 --> 00:23:24,109 needs to be how do we treat these people? 420 00:23:24,109 --> 00:23:27,649 Not to get more out of them, but to get the best out of them. 421 00:23:27,919 --> 00:23:31,759 And we're also seeing this change because our, the current generation entering 422 00:23:31,759 --> 00:23:36,349 the workforce have very different ideas and opinions in terms of how they work, 423 00:23:36,349 --> 00:23:38,269 when they work, how they're motivated. 424 00:23:38,509 --> 00:23:41,419 And I think that's helping organizations shift their 425 00:23:41,419 --> 00:23:44,359 assumptions to attract talent from. 426 00:23:44,619 --> 00:23:48,459 Gen Z and and the generations that that will come after. 427 00:23:48,964 --> 00:23:52,534 Because things are different now and the four day work week, obviously I've 428 00:23:52,534 --> 00:23:56,944 mentioned that was another, um, example of how we might sort of play with some of 429 00:23:56,944 --> 00:23:58,714 this stuff and trial some of this stuff. 430 00:23:59,044 --> 00:24:03,004 And we do a lot more of our work now out of an office than we ever used to. 431 00:24:03,364 --> 00:24:06,574 Um, there are, you know, particularly the tech companies, there are offices 432 00:24:06,574 --> 00:24:09,664 look very different now than they used to as well in terms of the 433 00:24:09,664 --> 00:24:14,464 pictures we've got on the wall, the table tennis or football, soccer, uh, 434 00:24:14,464 --> 00:24:17,734 the table football, all the little things that we have to make it more. 435 00:24:17,874 --> 00:24:21,264 Playful and hopefully as a result more innovative as 436 00:24:21,264 --> 00:24:21,384 well. 437 00:24:22,114 --> 00:24:29,674 Hmm, I'm, I'm, uh, um, cluing onto the, the terms sort of like value in terms 438 00:24:29,674 --> 00:24:33,094 of like the value that people provide. 439 00:24:33,274 --> 00:24:38,644 And is, has that changed at all in terms of like, is it, is it all still. 440 00:24:39,874 --> 00:24:43,594 Like totally sort of bottom line based economic. 441 00:24:43,864 --> 00:24:47,284 Are there, are there, you know, are there organizations that are 442 00:24:47,284 --> 00:24:51,694 looking at other things besides the, the, you know, profitability of the 443 00:24:51,694 --> 00:24:56,104 bottom line in terms of what, what constitutes value for the organization? 444 00:24:57,594 --> 00:24:59,454 Yeah, it's really hard to measure, right? 445 00:24:59,454 --> 00:25:02,544 I think that's one of the things, right from my days in hr, one 446 00:25:02,544 --> 00:25:05,304 of the things that's always been challenging is it's really hard to 447 00:25:05,304 --> 00:25:08,304 measure in a tangible, numerical way. 448 00:25:08,649 --> 00:25:09,939 Anything to do with people. 449 00:25:10,419 --> 00:25:14,889 We can measure lost time from absences, but in terms of productivity, it's so 450 00:25:14,889 --> 00:25:18,219 hard for us to put a number around someone performing at their best and what that 451 00:25:18,219 --> 00:25:20,589 looks like, or innovation and ideas. 452 00:25:20,889 --> 00:25:24,129 So the closest I've come to that is, is my own lived experience 453 00:25:24,129 --> 00:25:25,299 and describing this in a way. 454 00:25:25,729 --> 00:25:28,309 Um, the difference between quality and quantity. 455 00:25:28,699 --> 00:25:33,079 So when I first started my business, because it was new and because I wanted 456 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,259 to succeed, and obviously because of all of my background and being a 457 00:25:36,259 --> 00:25:40,429 high achiever and all the stuff that led me to burnout, um, I went in both 458 00:25:40,429 --> 00:25:42,619 feet and I was working all hours. 459 00:25:42,979 --> 00:25:44,929 And then I real realized, hang on a minute. 460 00:25:45,139 --> 00:25:48,499 You started this business because you wanted freedom from the corporate 461 00:25:48,499 --> 00:25:52,189 structure and the overwork, and now you are replaying exactly the same 462 00:25:52,189 --> 00:25:56,359 patterns, trying to do this by yourself, and you've got all this freedom to 463 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,129 be able to decide your own hours. 464 00:25:58,129 --> 00:26:01,699 And that was the aha for me, between quantity and quality. 465 00:26:02,329 --> 00:26:07,999 And so for example, now one of the best ideas I've had all month happened 466 00:26:07,999 --> 00:26:10,249 when I was out on a kayak on the ocean. 467 00:26:10,609 --> 00:26:13,399 So for all intents and purposes it looked like. 468 00:26:14,629 --> 00:26:18,019 was off work, but I was mulling over a problem. 469 00:26:18,139 --> 00:26:23,749 I was thinking about the title of my next book, and sometimes the best ideas in 470 00:26:23,749 --> 00:26:29,089 terms of that quality, the best ideas that are worth millions of dollars happen when 471 00:26:29,089 --> 00:26:32,479 we're not in the office, and that's the difference between quality and quantity. 472 00:26:32,479 --> 00:26:35,809 If you can produce one thing a week that is worth a million dollars. 473 00:26:36,769 --> 00:26:40,879 That's gonna probably out earn all the other 50 things on your to-do list that 474 00:26:40,879 --> 00:26:44,869 you were gonna sit down and bash out, um, and work 80 hours that week to get done. 475 00:26:44,869 --> 00:26:47,689 And I think that when we start to see it that way, it 476 00:26:47,689 --> 00:26:49,369 incredibly difficult to measure. 477 00:26:49,579 --> 00:26:53,749 But when we start to see it that way, we start to then detach from, I've 478 00:26:53,749 --> 00:26:57,679 just gotta work harder and do more, because that's not always us at our 479 00:26:57,679 --> 00:26:58,099 best. 480 00:26:59,164 --> 00:27:04,624 I've, um, I've coached a lot of people around this idea of like, you know, not 481 00:27:04,624 --> 00:27:06,694 just trying to get more and more done. 482 00:27:07,084 --> 00:27:13,444 And when I coach entrepreneurs or founders, it's pretty easy be, 483 00:27:13,804 --> 00:27:17,524 but, but when I coach people in organizations, there's a lot of. 484 00:27:17,869 --> 00:27:22,069 Pushback and I as a coach, not never having worked in one of those 485 00:27:22,069 --> 00:27:25,579 big organizations, I pushed back against the pushback and I was wrong 486 00:27:25,999 --> 00:27:30,739 because the culture does demand, you know, you be available from 487 00:27:30,739 --> 00:27:33,289 six to 9:00 PM for handling these. 488 00:27:33,289 --> 00:27:38,299 I. Daily emergencies that there are these meetings you have to like, like I'm, I 489 00:27:38,299 --> 00:27:41,959 was coaching this guy who's like, you know, almost at the C level in a very 490 00:27:41,959 --> 00:27:48,109 large company and like there was, we could not figure out a way for him to 491 00:27:48,109 --> 00:27:55,399 step away that didn't look like it was going to, you know, really undermine. 492 00:27:55,834 --> 00:28:02,524 His authority, his credibility and his promotion, um, possibilities. 493 00:28:02,644 --> 00:28:05,884 And what if he ever got that promotion, he'd be twice as busy. 494 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:07,819 Hmm. 495 00:28:08,899 --> 00:28:09,229 Yeah. 496 00:28:09,439 --> 00:28:09,709 Yeah. 497 00:28:09,919 --> 00:28:11,269 And it's, it's so common, right? 498 00:28:11,269 --> 00:28:12,859 It's so common, and I think. 499 00:28:14,074 --> 00:28:16,744 The way I'll often talk about this is slowing down to speed up. 500 00:28:17,254 --> 00:28:19,714 And it doesn't always have to be in our workday either. 501 00:28:19,714 --> 00:28:23,734 Sometimes it's what we do outside of work that prepares us for work days like that. 502 00:28:24,184 --> 00:28:28,204 But even work days like that have to be the exception rather than the rule, 503 00:28:28,474 --> 00:28:32,404 because from a sustainability perspective, we can't keep up with that all the time. 504 00:28:32,674 --> 00:28:37,444 And this concept of slowing down to speed up that I often talk about, I 505 00:28:37,444 --> 00:28:39,274 like to describe in terms of waves. 506 00:28:40,429 --> 00:28:43,999 And when we're at the peak of our wave, that should be ours at our best. 507 00:28:44,029 --> 00:28:46,849 But whenever you're near the ocean, waves come in, sets. 508 00:28:46,849 --> 00:28:47,089 Right? 509 00:28:47,089 --> 00:28:50,599 You're not, it's not just all one big wave and the waves are different sizes 510 00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:56,509 and often there's that period between sets where the water's just still, and I liken 511 00:28:56,509 --> 00:28:59,899 that to our approach to performance or a more effective approach to performance. 512 00:28:59,929 --> 00:29:01,999 'cause we think if we're on the peak wave for as long as we 513 00:29:01,999 --> 00:29:03,709 can be, that's us at our best. 514 00:29:04,249 --> 00:29:07,159 Eventually we fall off that peak wave because it's not sustainable. 515 00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:11,389 And so when you look at the rolling waves and the peaks and troughs, each 516 00:29:11,389 --> 00:29:13,939 trough helps us hit the next peak. 517 00:29:14,329 --> 00:29:16,129 And it's in those troughs that we need. 518 00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:19,369 Our rest and recovery time and the sporting world are really good at this. 519 00:29:19,369 --> 00:29:21,289 Athletes are really good at knowing this. 520 00:29:21,289 --> 00:29:25,789 They know to hit, whether it's game day or race day, they need to have that trough 521 00:29:25,789 --> 00:29:27,949 the other side and before to help prepare. 522 00:29:28,239 --> 00:29:31,509 To help rest and recover, and then they're ready to hit the next peak. 523 00:29:31,509 --> 00:29:34,869 And that's why we play our sport in seasons to allow for that to happen. 524 00:29:35,199 --> 00:29:38,829 We don't have the same methodology towards our corporate lives. 525 00:29:39,009 --> 00:29:42,609 We are just on constantly all the time, and we're expected to be at that peak. 526 00:29:42,879 --> 00:29:47,289 But from a sustainability perspective, if we slow down, what ends up 527 00:29:47,289 --> 00:29:51,939 happening is we become sharper, more focused, more energized. 528 00:29:52,269 --> 00:29:55,449 We get better ideas, we solve problems quicker. 529 00:29:55,929 --> 00:29:56,529 So. 530 00:29:57,034 --> 00:29:59,524 Often, I'll put this in an example so it makes more sense. 531 00:29:59,524 --> 00:30:01,714 Often I'll use the lunch break as an example. 532 00:30:02,194 --> 00:30:05,074 When we are really busy, we feel like we don't have time to take a lunch break. 533 00:30:05,494 --> 00:30:09,064 But if we take half an hour away from the office, get some fresh air, stretch 534 00:30:09,064 --> 00:30:14,044 our legs, eat something, that five hour workload that we might've been looking at 535 00:30:14,104 --> 00:30:16,654 in the afternoon now only becomes four. 536 00:30:17,164 --> 00:30:18,604 Because things don't take as long. 537 00:30:18,694 --> 00:30:21,634 We make less mistakes, so we're not going back redoing things. 538 00:30:21,874 --> 00:30:25,474 We're fresher, sharper, quicker, more innovative. 539 00:30:25,594 --> 00:30:28,744 We solve problems easier, we make decisions more accurately, 540 00:30:29,554 --> 00:30:31,864 and we're probably more tolerant with those around us. 541 00:30:31,864 --> 00:30:35,524 So we don't cause as much conflict in, in when we are doing this stuff. 542 00:30:35,554 --> 00:30:38,374 So when we look at all that stuff, that half an hour that we thought 543 00:30:38,374 --> 00:30:41,794 we couldn't afford for our lunch break rather than costing us time. 544 00:30:42,214 --> 00:30:46,054 Has saved us an hour on the workload because of how we're able to perform, 545 00:30:46,354 --> 00:30:47,764 and that's that wave approach. 546 00:30:47,764 --> 00:30:52,384 When we're utilizing the trough and we're taking that time to slow down, we 547 00:30:52,384 --> 00:30:54,184 then become more effective and speed up. 548 00:30:54,574 --> 00:30:59,734 And of course, on the craziest days in our office, we might not get that opportunity. 549 00:31:00,109 --> 00:31:03,139 But we do get that opportunity either end of the day when we go home. 550 00:31:03,379 --> 00:31:06,859 So it's what we do when we go to sleep, what time we go to bed, 551 00:31:06,949 --> 00:31:08,929 whether we've watched Netflix or not. 552 00:31:08,959 --> 00:31:11,029 What we do in the morning when we wake up. 553 00:31:11,239 --> 00:31:15,139 Sometimes the only control we have over that workday is the stuff that happens 554 00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:16,489 outside of the office when we're at 555 00:31:16,489 --> 00:31:20,599 home, but that again, is that trough of the wave that helps 556 00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:22,009 us then hit the next peak. 557 00:31:22,909 --> 00:31:26,539 So one thing that's occurring to me as you're talking about, and I love the, the 558 00:31:26,539 --> 00:31:31,519 metaphor of athletics to business because it's so clear in athletics, you know, 559 00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:36,049 that's, you know, coaching has happened in sports well before Anyone in the business 560 00:31:36,049 --> 00:31:38,194 world thought about getting a coach. 561 00:31:39,094 --> 00:31:43,354 And there's, I think there's a, there's a difference in that. 562 00:31:43,744 --> 00:31:47,314 If we're, if, if we're bringing the athletic metaphor, then everybody's, 563 00:31:47,314 --> 00:31:48,934 everybody at the office is an athlete. 564 00:31:49,714 --> 00:31:54,424 Whereas a lot of people who are sort of, even managers and leaders are more 565 00:31:54,424 --> 00:32:01,054 like the physical trainers or, you know, the coaches, the, the, the therapists. 566 00:32:01,354 --> 00:32:07,324 So like I, you know, there are days at which I'm at my best when I'm at 567 00:32:07,354 --> 00:32:09,244 because I'm supporting other people. 568 00:32:09,754 --> 00:32:14,014 Emotionally, cognitively, and, and it has nothing to do with 569 00:32:14,014 --> 00:32:15,424 what I'm doing on the field. 570 00:32:15,424 --> 00:32:17,974 It's what I allow other people to do on the field. 571 00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:18,949 Yeah. 572 00:32:19,729 --> 00:32:20,029 Yeah. 573 00:32:20,419 --> 00:32:22,969 That's a really good analogy, particularly for a leader, right? 574 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:26,329 Because your role should be to step back and allow the team to deliver 575 00:32:26,329 --> 00:32:29,899 on the day, and it's everything you've done before that that gives 576 00:32:29,959 --> 00:32:31,879 them the opportunity to perform. 577 00:32:32,329 --> 00:32:33,972 And I think for leaders it's incredibly difficult 578 00:32:34,189 --> 00:32:36,469 ' cause we really only have two leavers to pull. 579 00:32:36,529 --> 00:32:37,189 As a leader. 580 00:32:37,579 --> 00:32:40,369 We either have less coming in, so we say no to work. 581 00:32:40,684 --> 00:32:44,554 Or we delegate that work because otherwise we become the bottleneck. 582 00:32:44,554 --> 00:32:47,584 And I think that's so true of so many leaders that are too busy. 583 00:32:47,944 --> 00:32:50,854 They've either taken on too much or they've not had the choice, they've 584 00:32:50,854 --> 00:32:54,124 been landed with too much, or they haven't been able to pull that other 585 00:32:54,124 --> 00:32:58,414 lever, which is get more resource, delegate some of this Get help support. 586 00:32:58,834 --> 00:33:00,664 Because that's the only two options. 587 00:33:00,664 --> 00:33:04,234 It's either control what's coming in or increase what's going out. 588 00:33:04,234 --> 00:33:06,304 Otherwise, you do become the bottleneck. 589 00:33:06,304 --> 00:33:09,604 And I think there's far too many leaders who are too busy. 590 00:33:10,144 --> 00:33:13,024 And when we're too busy as a leader, there's a massive part 591 00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:14,367 of our job we are not doing. 592 00:33:14,764 --> 00:33:17,884 And that's the strategic thinking, the planning for the future, the 593 00:33:17,884 --> 00:33:22,984 vision, the mulling over problems, the innovation, the stuff that requires 594 00:33:22,984 --> 00:33:25,624 space in our schedule and time. 595 00:33:25,864 --> 00:33:28,294 And most leaders don't have enough of that, and yet it's 596 00:33:28,294 --> 00:33:29,599 such a critical part of the role. 597 00:33:30,364 --> 00:33:30,724 Yeah. 598 00:33:31,474 --> 00:33:36,964 Um, do you have stories about, excuse me, about leaders who 599 00:33:36,964 --> 00:33:41,044 were able to, whom you've helped to kind of create that space? 600 00:33:41,044 --> 00:33:44,884 Because it's, it sounds so good in theory, and yet when, you know, when 601 00:33:44,884 --> 00:33:47,584 we're in it, it almost feels impossible. 602 00:33:47,734 --> 00:33:51,814 Like, do you have a, like, good, you know, good po po positive tales for us? 603 00:33:53,629 --> 00:33:54,079 Yeah. 604 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:57,679 Yeah, I mean, I work mostly with women leaders, so a lot of that it's, it's 605 00:33:57,679 --> 00:33:59,659 not just the stuff that's happening in work, it's the stuff that's 606 00:33:59,659 --> 00:34:00,889 happening outside of work as well. 607 00:34:00,889 --> 00:34:03,919 So a lot of the family demands and how you juggle everything. 608 00:34:04,429 --> 00:34:08,989 And one of the things that's helped the women I've worked with has been presence. 609 00:34:09,394 --> 00:34:12,514 Being able to be present wherever you are and knowing that you 610 00:34:12,514 --> 00:34:13,954 won't always get it perfect. 611 00:34:13,954 --> 00:34:16,984 So when you're at home being present with family and not worrying about 612 00:34:16,984 --> 00:34:19,144 work and not logging onto emails. 613 00:34:19,414 --> 00:34:23,044 And then when you're at work, being present at work and being able to do 614 00:34:23,044 --> 00:34:26,194 the job, knowing that you perhaps won't do all of it before you have to leave. 615 00:34:26,194 --> 00:34:29,764 Particularly if you've got kids to pick up and you're leaving early as as an example. 616 00:34:30,574 --> 00:34:33,934 And one of the, um, one of the clients I was recently coaching, we had a bit 617 00:34:33,994 --> 00:34:36,994 of a breakthrough when we were talking through this notion of priorities. 618 00:34:37,864 --> 00:34:42,544 And different priorities, and I think it comes from Greg McKeown's book 619 00:34:42,604 --> 00:34:43,504 Essentialism. 620 00:34:43,774 --> 00:34:48,994 He talks about the origins of the word priority, and apparently in the English 621 00:34:48,994 --> 00:34:54,154 language you can find it dated back to the 14 hundreds, but only as a singular. 622 00:34:54,559 --> 00:34:58,249 So it was always priority and it, it means the one thing that is more 623 00:34:58,249 --> 00:35:02,299 important than anything else, and it's only since the 19 hundreds and the 624 00:35:02,299 --> 00:35:05,719 roundabout, the industrial revolution, that it became a plural, and we 625 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,459 started to talk about priorities. 626 00:35:07,759 --> 00:35:12,019 So the fact that we can have 30 priorities now and be spread too thin 627 00:35:12,019 --> 00:35:13,759 and wondering why we're not achieving. 628 00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:18,274 Is because we don't focus on the one thing that's most important 629 00:35:18,454 --> 00:35:22,654 and that I, granted, not all of us have only got one priority a day. 630 00:35:22,654 --> 00:35:26,074 That would be a lovely dream to have, but probably unrealistic. 631 00:35:26,374 --> 00:35:28,324 But we always have one priority for now. 632 00:35:28,954 --> 00:35:32,464 One priority for the next hour, one priority for after lunch, 633 00:35:32,524 --> 00:35:34,204 one priority for after work. 634 00:35:34,564 --> 00:35:38,764 And so each time we're focusing all of our energy and attention on one priority. 635 00:35:39,454 --> 00:35:41,494 And with this client, we were talking about digging for 636 00:35:41,494 --> 00:35:43,414 water, so digging a well. 637 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,729 And if you stand in one place and dig for water, it's probably 638 00:35:46,729 --> 00:35:48,319 the most productive thing to do. 639 00:35:48,529 --> 00:35:51,349 But if you are dotting around, digging lots of holes looking 640 00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:54,199 for water, you're never gonna get deep enough to find the water. 641 00:35:54,409 --> 00:35:57,589 And I think that's true with our energy and attention on our priority. 642 00:35:57,739 --> 00:35:59,329 What's the priority for now? 643 00:35:59,689 --> 00:36:03,169 And for this particular client, she was saying that she can approach her work and 644 00:36:03,169 --> 00:36:07,459 her family life with through that lens of what is my one priority right now. 645 00:36:08,029 --> 00:36:11,479 And sometimes that changes because sometimes you have a priority at work. 646 00:36:11,819 --> 00:36:15,447 And then a crisis happens, and that becomes the priority. 647 00:36:15,989 --> 00:36:19,079 But knowing that we can never do it all and knowing that we're just 648 00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:22,349 focusing on the thing in front of us, and then there'll be another thing and 649 00:36:22,349 --> 00:36:25,559 another thing that can reduce some of the overwhelm, and that was certainly 650 00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:29,609 useful for her in terms of managing the many demands of not just, um, 651 00:36:29,669 --> 00:36:32,039 a busy, uh, C-suite job, but family 652 00:36:32,039 --> 00:36:32,459 as well. 653 00:36:33,049 --> 00:36:37,429 So I, I have a client who has been struggling with the idea of prioritizing 654 00:36:37,879 --> 00:36:40,519 in that when they make their plan. 655 00:36:41,629 --> 00:36:45,829 They then have to, they then discover that the plan gets thrown out the 656 00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:51,769 window because exigencies emergencies the unexpected and they feel a little 657 00:36:51,769 --> 00:36:54,439 bit like, was the planning time wasted? 658 00:36:55,159 --> 00:36:58,369 And you know, I don't think it is, but I'm a coach, so I don't, you 659 00:36:58,369 --> 00:37:00,499 know, I don't hammer home my opinions. 660 00:37:00,529 --> 00:37:04,039 I help them kind of explore the value of the planning, even when 661 00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:06,139 the planning gets thrown out. 662 00:37:06,139 --> 00:37:06,949 What are your thoughts? 663 00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:10,199 Yeah, it's an interesting one. 664 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:13,199 I think we always have to have a plan, but I think we also can't be too 665 00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:17,609 attached to the plan because as you say, quite often the plan changes and 666 00:37:17,609 --> 00:37:19,229 often our plans are out of our control. 667 00:37:19,229 --> 00:37:20,609 We like to think they're in our control. 668 00:37:20,609 --> 00:37:21,929 That's why we do planning, right? 669 00:37:22,049 --> 00:37:23,699 To give some level of certainty. 670 00:37:24,224 --> 00:37:28,124 And yet I feel like we need to be disattach, uh, detached from that 671 00:37:28,844 --> 00:37:34,334 so that if the worst happens and the plans fall away, we can still carry on. 672 00:37:34,424 --> 00:37:39,164 And I feel like planning is never wasted because whatever was, whatever 673 00:37:39,164 --> 00:37:43,129 was realized through that process of planning, I. It's gonna help you for the 674 00:37:43,129 --> 00:37:46,039 future, even when the plan falls apart. 675 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:49,099 So I think the plan is, it might be off the table right now if there's 676 00:37:49,099 --> 00:37:51,889 a crisis that's happened and come over the top of it, and that happens 677 00:37:51,889 --> 00:37:53,539 to most of our plans to be fair. 678 00:37:54,169 --> 00:37:57,739 But the plan's still there, so there'll be parts of that plan you can 679 00:37:57,739 --> 00:37:59,449 revisit and parts of that plan there. 680 00:37:59,479 --> 00:38:02,989 There's that whole adage that there's always enough time if it's 681 00:38:02,989 --> 00:38:03,649 important. 682 00:38:04,309 --> 00:38:07,129 And whilst crises tend to be the most important things that 683 00:38:07,129 --> 00:38:10,309 overlay our plans, if there are important things on that plan. 684 00:38:10,819 --> 00:38:11,659 You come back to it 685 00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:14,239 or it features it the in the next plan. 686 00:38:14,299 --> 00:38:16,219 So I feel like a plan is never wasted. 687 00:38:16,219 --> 00:38:17,539 It's something you build on. 688 00:38:17,959 --> 00:38:21,889 And so we can plan, but we also need to plan for the plan, not 689 00:38:21,889 --> 00:38:23,419 going to plan, if that makes 690 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,464 Yeah, and I think there's, and this is something I've been having difficulty 691 00:38:26,464 --> 00:38:29,734 articulating with my client, but there, there's, there's some sort, 692 00:38:29,764 --> 00:38:32,104 there's a meta value in planning. 693 00:38:33,544 --> 00:38:40,114 That like you have to be thinking certain things in certain ways in order 694 00:38:40,114 --> 00:38:43,744 to engage in the planning process. 695 00:38:43,774 --> 00:38:44,074 Right? 696 00:38:44,074 --> 00:38:49,804 And those, those principles are, are still going to be valuable. 697 00:38:49,809 --> 00:38:49,879 Right. 698 00:38:51,834 --> 00:38:52,674 A hundred percent. 699 00:38:52,764 --> 00:38:53,724 Yeah, a hundred percent. 700 00:38:53,724 --> 00:38:57,264 And I think going through that process of planning does something to your brain. 701 00:38:57,564 --> 00:39:02,814 That means the next time you sit to plan things are different in a positive way. 702 00:39:03,324 --> 00:39:05,604 And I think, you know, when I think about my own planning, there are 703 00:39:05,604 --> 00:39:09,984 things that have been on my plan for five years that I don't get to 704 00:39:10,284 --> 00:39:12,384 because of other things that happen. 705 00:39:12,804 --> 00:39:14,964 But the fact they're on my plan means that they keep coming 706 00:39:14,964 --> 00:39:15,684 back around. 707 00:39:15,934 --> 00:39:19,894 So it never goes away because it's almost like a memo and a constant reminder that 708 00:39:19,894 --> 00:39:23,404 remember, this was something you were keen on making happen, and now might not 709 00:39:23,404 --> 00:39:27,604 be the right time, or I might have run out of time, but it's still on the plan. 710 00:39:27,604 --> 00:39:28,954 So it still keeps popping 711 00:39:28,954 --> 00:39:30,244 up and featuring. 712 00:39:30,454 --> 00:39:34,294 And I think you're right that pla, that mental process that we go through 713 00:39:34,294 --> 00:39:39,964 when we plan it sets wheels in motion that may not be realized right now. 714 00:39:40,369 --> 00:39:44,179 And we might not feel that the plan's gone to plan, but in the future, that 715 00:39:44,179 --> 00:39:47,959 process will serve as dividends in terms of how it impacts what we then 716 00:39:48,349 --> 00:39:51,709 plan to do or do without planning. 717 00:39:51,709 --> 00:39:52,879 Because of the planning we did 718 00:39:53,179 --> 00:39:53,839 previously, I. 719 00:39:54,424 --> 00:39:54,784 Gotcha. 720 00:39:54,784 --> 00:39:54,994 Great. 721 00:39:54,994 --> 00:39:55,834 That's helpful. 722 00:39:56,674 --> 00:40:02,524 So I'm, I'm trying to, um, seeing in my mind sort of the, the peak, uh, C-suite 723 00:40:02,524 --> 00:40:08,224 women that you work with, and then the peak monks and nuns from these, you know, 724 00:40:08,884 --> 00:40:15,094 and I guess I'm, you know, like, I'm imagining like supernatural powers, right? 725 00:40:15,094 --> 00:40:19,864 Whether, whether it's by location or levitation or simply like this presence. 726 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,559 That you feel like this person has just, you know, they're just so good at this 727 00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:30,559 thing, you know, like the, you know, the Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan Right. 728 00:40:30,589 --> 00:40:34,399 Um, of, of presence. 729 00:40:35,089 --> 00:40:38,569 And I'm wondering what you, you know, have you seen or, or helped or 730 00:40:38,569 --> 00:40:43,969 worked with leaders who developed it to at least, uh, such an extent that 731 00:40:43,969 --> 00:40:48,619 it became like noticeable, it had a tangible impact on their organizations? 732 00:40:50,284 --> 00:40:51,394 Mm, a hundred percent. 733 00:40:51,694 --> 00:40:56,644 Where I've seen it work well with leaders is the self-awareness, the 734 00:40:56,644 --> 00:40:59,914 being able to sit in a room and absorb everything that's going on around 735 00:40:59,914 --> 00:41:06,394 you, to be able to listen intently and understand and be open and curious. 736 00:41:07,399 --> 00:41:11,089 It's something that I'll often talk about as self-mastery, and we see that 737 00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:17,809 in whether it's Zen master monks or martial artists, it's this discipline, 738 00:41:17,869 --> 00:41:22,759 this grounded confidence, this inner knowing, this self-awareness, this 739 00:41:22,767 --> 00:41:27,289 ability to have empathy towards others, kindness and compassion because you 740 00:41:27,289 --> 00:41:29,089 are social sure about who you are. 741 00:41:29,984 --> 00:41:34,634 This innate sharpness and focus and almost an energy that they emit. 742 00:41:34,634 --> 00:41:38,234 So I love that you talked about presence, because that's exactly what that is. 743 00:41:38,504 --> 00:41:41,804 Then when you translate that into the boardroom, we talk 744 00:41:41,804 --> 00:41:43,214 about influence and impact. 745 00:41:43,424 --> 00:41:47,744 That all comes from presence and a lot of the time, particularly in times of 746 00:41:47,744 --> 00:41:53,504 change and crisis, a lot of the time you just walking into a room as a leader. 747 00:41:54,229 --> 00:41:57,859 Has a massive impact, positively or negatively on those around 748 00:41:57,859 --> 00:42:01,549 you, just from that presence and your state and how you show up. 749 00:42:01,849 --> 00:42:05,149 And I think that's something that we've underrated in our leadership training. 750 00:42:05,449 --> 00:42:06,229 Um, to date. 751 00:42:06,229 --> 00:42:09,139 You know, we've been, been very much focused on our technical skills 752 00:42:09,139 --> 00:42:13,429 and the ability of being a leader as opposed to how you show up. 753 00:42:13,909 --> 00:42:16,549 And I believe, you know, we're seeing a shift in that space over 754 00:42:16,549 --> 00:42:19,879 the last decade, but leadership is so much more about who you are. 755 00:42:20,164 --> 00:42:21,724 Than what you do these days. 756 00:42:22,084 --> 00:42:26,554 And yet so many leaders are still stuck in the, what am I doing, space and 757 00:42:26,554 --> 00:42:31,744 continually doing rather than working on who they are being and that ripple effect 758 00:42:31,744 --> 00:42:33,454 then that they have on people around them. 759 00:42:33,454 --> 00:42:37,324 So that discipline around their own needs, that self-awareness, 760 00:42:37,332 --> 00:42:41,824 that inner state energy, um, the awareness not just of themselves, but 761 00:42:41,824 --> 00:42:43,384 others and the energy in the room. 762 00:42:43,384 --> 00:42:47,284 And I think in times of crisis and change when people are looking to us. 763 00:42:47,659 --> 00:42:48,379 To lead. 764 00:42:48,799 --> 00:42:50,239 That's what they're looking for. 765 00:42:50,419 --> 00:42:53,659 And so often that can be something we haven't prioritized in terms of our 766 00:42:53,659 --> 00:42:57,169 own development and, and nobody's told us is important, but that's certainly 767 00:42:57,169 --> 00:43:01,369 been the transferable skills I've seen and the stuff that's worked well, 768 00:43:01,429 --> 00:43:05,389 particularly from a presence perspective and an impact and influence perspective. 769 00:43:05,629 --> 00:43:09,049 How we translate from, from the mountaintop, if you like, into 770 00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:09,769 the boardroom. 771 00:43:10,414 --> 00:43:15,394 Which leads me to, uh, you mentioned, um, AI in your website 772 00:43:15,394 --> 00:43:18,844 and I don't know if it's something you sort of threw in in passing or 773 00:43:18,844 --> 00:43:20,374 whether you think a lot about it. 774 00:43:20,824 --> 00:43:24,094 Um, I had a conversation a couple days ago with a guy who. 775 00:43:24,619 --> 00:43:27,709 Is is always got his finger on trends and is very interested 776 00:43:27,709 --> 00:43:28,879 in like where things are going. 777 00:43:28,879 --> 00:43:34,939 And his view is that AI is really changing everything rapidly and it's going to 778 00:43:34,969 --> 00:43:41,779 significantly shift the human experience and especially around work and whose 779 00:43:41,779 --> 00:43:44,359 work is gonna be needed and whose isn't. 780 00:43:45,229 --> 00:43:50,239 What are, what are your thoughts about the, the intersection of, of you helping 781 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:56,689 to create better humans and this tidal wave of, of innovation and change 782 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,519 that's, uh, that, you know, could, could lift us all or could drown us? 783 00:44:02,824 --> 00:44:03,184 Yeah. 784 00:44:03,214 --> 00:44:03,364 Yeah. 785 00:44:03,364 --> 00:44:05,704 You're so right Howie, and I think for many of us, we're 786 00:44:05,704 --> 00:44:06,724 scared about that, right? 787 00:44:06,724 --> 00:44:09,394 We're scared about the uncertain future and what does that mean, and 788 00:44:09,394 --> 00:44:12,694 will I still have a job and can I keep up with the pace of change? 789 00:44:12,694 --> 00:44:16,834 Because we know that AI has already changed things dramatically and will 790 00:44:16,834 --> 00:44:19,264 continue to do so at quite a rapid rate. 791 00:44:20,344 --> 00:44:24,214 My perspective on this is that our humanness. 792 00:44:24,604 --> 00:44:26,254 Becomes our point of difference. 793 00:44:26,434 --> 00:44:31,954 So AI is, uh, is gonna bring huge change and positive ones as well. 794 00:44:31,954 --> 00:44:34,324 I'm quite excited about what the future looks like. 795 00:44:34,474 --> 00:44:37,414 I'm sure there'll be some unintended consequences like there are with 796 00:44:37,474 --> 00:44:39,364 any kind of large scale change. 797 00:44:39,364 --> 00:44:44,929 I. But what remains throughout that is that our, our humanness as leaders and 798 00:44:44,929 --> 00:44:49,429 how we lead and how we show up and how we treat others, how we make people feel, 799 00:44:49,879 --> 00:44:51,349 that becomes our point of difference. 800 00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:55,669 Because when you look at what we've staked our career claim on, for most 801 00:44:55,669 --> 00:44:59,689 leaders, it's been the decades we've spent studying all of the technical 802 00:44:59,689 --> 00:45:01,909 skills and abilities that we have that. 803 00:45:02,089 --> 00:45:04,849 Often is what gets us the leadership role in the first place. 804 00:45:05,269 --> 00:45:09,739 And of course, that's the stuff that AI will be able to replicate and replace. 805 00:45:10,009 --> 00:45:14,359 So the only point of difference we have then is our human ability, is our 806 00:45:14,359 --> 00:45:16,729 emotional intelligence, is our humanness. 807 00:45:16,729 --> 00:45:20,749 And when we lead from a human centered perspective and when we, when we are 808 00:45:20,749 --> 00:45:24,829 more concerned about how we make people feel and that the, the state and how 809 00:45:24,829 --> 00:45:28,669 we show up and how we guide others through this change in uncertainty. 810 00:45:29,374 --> 00:45:30,094 For now. 811 00:45:30,094 --> 00:45:33,424 At least that's the stuff that AI is not doing. 812 00:45:33,844 --> 00:45:36,844 And so for leaders, I think that's our point of difference. 813 00:45:37,174 --> 00:45:40,954 And if we can upskill in that space, I think we future proof ourselves 814 00:45:40,954 --> 00:45:44,599 for a world that will be vastly different with with AI on board, 815 00:45:44,899 --> 00:45:45,019 Hmm 816 00:45:45,394 --> 00:45:45,424 I. 817 00:45:46,259 --> 00:45:46,379 Hmm. 818 00:45:47,314 --> 00:45:50,464 And another intersection that I'm curious about is sort of, 819 00:45:50,464 --> 00:45:51,874 you know, the work you do. 820 00:45:51,874 --> 00:45:56,449 I. AI and specifically women in leadership positions. 821 00:45:56,449 --> 00:45:59,509 You, you write that women feel like they often don't fit in, 822 00:45:59,569 --> 00:46:01,399 in male dominated environments. 823 00:46:01,939 --> 00:46:04,519 AI could go either way. 824 00:46:04,519 --> 00:46:08,449 I suspect, you know, I most AI appears to be. 825 00:46:10,429 --> 00:46:11,299 I'll be a little crude. 826 00:46:11,299 --> 00:46:14,239 It's, it's sort of like, you know, the, the Silicon Valley Tech bros 827 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,129 built their own intellectual sex doll. 828 00:46:16,339 --> 00:46:16,519 Like, 829 00:46:17,624 --> 00:46:18,074 Yes. 830 00:46:18,554 --> 00:46:24,139 like I, I don't, I don't see it as necessarily favoring equality and 831 00:46:24,139 --> 00:46:27,739 equity and, and diversity thoughts. 832 00:46:29,654 --> 00:46:35,449 Yeah, it's a really interesting one because I. AI will be a product of 833 00:46:35,449 --> 00:46:36,949 the people that train it, right? 834 00:46:37,189 --> 00:46:41,599 And so it's gathering information from all different sources to, to learn. 835 00:46:42,259 --> 00:46:46,009 And I heard someone talk about it the other day as, as a think of it 836 00:46:46,009 --> 00:46:50,899 as a toddler that's being parented by multiple different parents, not all 837 00:46:50,899 --> 00:46:52,879 of whom are perhaps great parents. 838 00:46:53,809 --> 00:46:56,209 And there's an opportunity, I think, for women. 839 00:46:56,209 --> 00:46:59,179 So the statistics show that women are. 840 00:47:00,244 --> 00:47:04,474 Not taking up AI at the same rate as their male counterparts that we are. 841 00:47:04,504 --> 00:47:07,534 We are sort of standing back and waiting to see what's happening and, and 842 00:47:07,534 --> 00:47:09,184 that might be for that reason, right? 843 00:47:09,334 --> 00:47:12,214 If this is a product of a very male dominated environment and, 844 00:47:12,214 --> 00:47:15,394 and the tech industry being how it is, then potentially that's. 845 00:47:15,724 --> 00:47:17,734 Not gonna encourage women to get involved. 846 00:47:17,884 --> 00:47:21,994 However, if women are not at the table and are not having a voice 847 00:47:22,144 --> 00:47:26,404 in these discussions, if we are not using AI and responsible therefore 848 00:47:26,404 --> 00:47:29,644 for training it, then of course that's gonna be a huge part of the 849 00:47:29,644 --> 00:47:32,014 population that AI doesn't represent. 850 00:47:32,284 --> 00:47:33,904 So it's almost a double-edged sword. 851 00:47:34,474 --> 00:47:37,774 Women don't feel like they can get involved and not all women, 852 00:47:37,774 --> 00:47:40,294 many are, but if we don't. 853 00:47:40,714 --> 00:47:45,784 We run the risk of AI being more biased and not fit for purpose, for 854 00:47:46,084 --> 00:47:47,284 where, where women are concerned. 855 00:47:47,284 --> 00:47:50,674 So I feel like there's an opportunity here for us to embrace this 856 00:47:50,854 --> 00:47:52,474 and to be part of the journey. 857 00:47:52,684 --> 00:47:56,344 It'll be a really interesting discussion in the future to see 858 00:47:56,388 --> 00:48:01,054 how all this turns out because we know that humans are biased. 859 00:48:01,939 --> 00:48:05,539 And if humans are building ai, that would suggest that AI is too. 860 00:48:05,569 --> 00:48:10,909 However, AI appears to be slightly more clever than humans, so potentially 861 00:48:10,909 --> 00:48:13,159 it might train itself out of that. 862 00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:15,979 I mean, wouldn't, wouldn't that be amazing if it developed the capability 863 00:48:15,979 --> 00:48:21,829 to be fairer and more just, um, and less discriminatory then it's, than it's human 864 00:48:21,829 --> 00:48:22,399 modelers. 865 00:48:22,699 --> 00:48:22,879 Yeah. 866 00:48:22,879 --> 00:48:28,009 Well if, if, you know, if it had, if it had an algorithm that said like, how can 867 00:48:28,009 --> 00:48:32,989 this organization be its best, you know, I was, I was talking with, uh, with our, 868 00:48:32,989 --> 00:48:37,036 our friend Keith Edwards, who's, who does diversity equity inclusion work. 869 00:48:37,459 --> 00:48:41,299 And, you know, the, the, one of the things he said was like, over the past. 870 00:48:41,674 --> 00:48:44,554 Month and a half since the Trump administration took over 871 00:48:44,554 --> 00:48:52,234 and, um, forbade language like inclusion and gender and equity. 872 00:48:52,474 --> 00:48:56,704 So the, the same work he's doing, he has to call it by different names, and 873 00:48:56,704 --> 00:49:00,514 he said instead of calling it equity leadership, he's calling it leadership. 874 00:49:00,514 --> 00:49:03,754 Instead of calling it diversity, he's calling it, you know, performance. 875 00:49:03,754 --> 00:49:08,524 And I said like, I actually like those better because they're what they are. 876 00:49:09,329 --> 00:49:13,834 And, and so like if, if AI were to say like, how can we have, what 877 00:49:13,834 --> 00:49:17,464 could we do to have this organization really be great in the world? 878 00:49:18,304 --> 00:49:24,904 Hopefully it would do those things to include and empower women, uh, and other 879 00:49:24,904 --> 00:49:28,564 groups that have, uh, traditionally not been at the, at the top of the food chain. 880 00:49:30,359 --> 00:49:30,709 Yeah. 881 00:49:30,829 --> 00:49:31,789 Oh, a hundred percent. 882 00:49:31,789 --> 00:49:35,449 And I think, I think you're so right and, and Keith as well, it's, I think 883 00:49:35,449 --> 00:49:36,859 it was the Shakespeare line, wasn't it? 884 00:49:36,859 --> 00:49:39,919 A rose by any other name still smells as sweet. 885 00:49:40,189 --> 00:49:41,634 And I think this is true in this case. 886 00:49:42,019 --> 00:49:47,659 I think when you ask what makes a great leader, so you, you ask your AI. 887 00:49:48,078 --> 00:49:52,519 Tool what makes a great leader, it will spit out some of the very things 888 00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:54,259 that we're not allowed to say anymore. 889 00:49:54,529 --> 00:49:57,619 It'll spit out, you know, different words that mean the same thing. 890 00:49:57,619 --> 00:50:02,599 It'll be how we treat others and how we are curious and open, how we leave ego 891 00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:06,229 at the door, how we involve everybody in the conversation, how we can get 892 00:50:06,229 --> 00:50:10,789 a diverse set of experience in our team so that we get a better idea. 893 00:50:10,789 --> 00:50:14,149 And I think when we have this conversation around our tables these 894 00:50:14,149 --> 00:50:15,979 days, and we talk about things like. 895 00:50:16,639 --> 00:50:20,569 Hey, I just want a culture where everyone can be included or I just want 896 00:50:20,569 --> 00:50:23,989 an environment, um, in my workplace where everyone belongs regardless of 897 00:50:23,989 --> 00:50:25,579 what they look like and sound like. 898 00:50:26,029 --> 00:50:28,369 There's not many people in the world that say no to that, 899 00:50:28,429 --> 00:50:29,719 that that's not a good idea. 900 00:50:30,229 --> 00:50:31,774 And I think sometimes when we take some of those. 901 00:50:32,644 --> 00:50:34,894 So we say heated conversations outta the mix. 902 00:50:34,894 --> 00:50:38,344 We're all still talking about exactly the same thing, and I think maybe that's 903 00:50:38,344 --> 00:50:42,304 where AI will perhaps help because it will cut through all the language 904 00:50:42,304 --> 00:50:44,134 and go, well, this is what you mean. 905 00:50:44,164 --> 00:50:45,184 This is what you need. 906 00:50:45,424 --> 00:50:48,844 Regardless of what we call it, a fair and equitable world 907 00:50:48,844 --> 00:50:50,614 for everyone can't be a bad 908 00:50:50,614 --> 00:50:51,134 thing, right? 909 00:50:51,434 --> 00:50:51,724 Yeah. 910 00:50:52,704 --> 00:50:56,209 So one, one of the things I've struggled with, and I have. 911 00:50:56,524 --> 00:51:05,254 You know, is, is like two um, flavors of feminism as they apply to the workplace. 912 00:51:05,254 --> 00:51:10,711 And one of them was like, I would say like early stage like feminism saying like, 913 00:51:10,984 --> 00:51:17,974 we need more femininity, we need more feminine energy in the world to balance. 914 00:51:18,934 --> 00:51:23,404 Right, and, and then there was like the second wave of professional 915 00:51:23,404 --> 00:51:25,654 women, which was feminism. 916 00:51:25,654 --> 00:51:26,839 Like be like a man. 917 00:51:27,859 --> 00:51:28,159 Right. 918 00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:31,339 And there's, and there's some echoes of this in your, in your, you know, learning 919 00:51:31,609 --> 00:51:36,679 outcomes for, for women around like, build confidence to apply for promotions. 920 00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:43,489 And I've gotta say like, I would like to build unconfidence in men to ask 921 00:51:43,489 --> 00:51:47,569 for like, like, you know, instead of saying like, women should be just like 922 00:51:47,569 --> 00:51:51,739 men, like to apply for things you're completely unqualified for, which I see 923 00:51:51,739 --> 00:51:54,379 in men all the time applying and getting. 924 00:51:54,784 --> 00:51:59,044 Um, you know, to not having self-doubt, to, you know, to 925 00:51:59,044 --> 00:52:01,084 drowning the inner critic somehow. 926 00:52:01,264 --> 00:52:05,179 How, how do you navigate those, those tensions? 927 00:52:07,204 --> 00:52:07,594 Yeah. 928 00:52:07,954 --> 00:52:12,664 Um, again, it's coming back to the focus on what you can control, and most of the 929 00:52:12,664 --> 00:52:14,974 time, unfortunately, we can't control. 930 00:52:15,334 --> 00:52:19,984 Overconfident men who apply for promotions and sometimes get promotions 931 00:52:19,984 --> 00:52:21,544 that they're perhaps not cut out for. 932 00:52:21,814 --> 00:52:25,474 The one thing we can control as women is we know that there's a tendency for 933 00:52:25,474 --> 00:52:29,584 women to underestimate their skills and ability or to look for more security. 934 00:52:29,854 --> 00:52:33,874 So because of the societies we've grown up in and the inequities that exist, 935 00:52:34,114 --> 00:52:39,634 women will often think they need more experience, more skills, more assurity. 936 00:52:39,834 --> 00:52:42,174 That they can do the job before they apply for it. 937 00:52:42,174 --> 00:52:42,534 And I think 938 00:52:42,534 --> 00:52:43,674 that's the big difference here. 939 00:52:43,674 --> 00:52:47,364 So it's not becoming overconfident, it's getting rid of the self-doubt 940 00:52:47,364 --> 00:52:50,664 and all of the cultural norms and baggage that we often carry into that 941 00:52:50,664 --> 00:52:55,224 moment to be able to do what everybody else seems to be doing around us. 942 00:52:55,284 --> 00:52:58,944 And I think particularly for women, one of the things I'm often saying 943 00:52:58,944 --> 00:53:02,694 is this is not about having to change something about yourself. 944 00:53:03,289 --> 00:53:06,259 And quite often for women it has been about that. 945 00:53:06,289 --> 00:53:10,879 So women will feel like they have to be less empathetic to be taken seriously 946 00:53:11,059 --> 00:53:14,539 or to behave more like a man so that they're seen as an assertive leader. 947 00:53:14,899 --> 00:53:18,469 And that's often where we go wrong and some of the very things that make 948 00:53:18,469 --> 00:53:22,069 us different to a lot of the role models that are around us, which for 949 00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:26,389 many years, particularly people as old as me, um, have been male leaders. 950 00:53:26,629 --> 00:53:29,119 That's been our, you know, I didn't know any female leaders 951 00:53:29,119 --> 00:53:30,439 until I was perhaps in my. 952 00:53:30,814 --> 00:53:32,194 Fourth or fifth role. 953 00:53:32,764 --> 00:53:37,144 And so we look at that masculinity in approach. 954 00:53:37,144 --> 00:53:40,474 And of course from an energy perspective, regardless of gender, we've all got 955 00:53:40,474 --> 00:53:42,154 masculine and feminine energies. 956 00:53:42,514 --> 00:53:47,614 But when more of one is on show, it tends to be the thing we think, well, I need to 957 00:53:47,614 --> 00:53:50,074 have more of that to be a serious leader. 958 00:53:50,434 --> 00:53:53,584 And that takes us away from the very point of difference we have 959 00:53:53,584 --> 00:53:55,294 as a woman stepping into that role. 960 00:53:55,564 --> 00:53:59,314 So I'm very big on rather than trying to change something about ourselves. 961 00:53:59,689 --> 00:54:00,469 To fit in. 962 00:54:00,799 --> 00:54:05,629 How do we leverage our difference to stand out or to be the difference around that 963 00:54:05,634 --> 00:54:05,854 table? 964 00:54:06,919 --> 00:54:07,219 Yeah. 965 00:54:07,219 --> 00:54:15,199 Is it, I mean, when women show more empathy and inclusion, does that 966 00:54:15,229 --> 00:54:22,009 sometimes backfire in that you know, that, that, that men will, will 967 00:54:22,009 --> 00:54:24,379 apply a stereotypical lens to it. 968 00:54:26,509 --> 00:54:30,079 Oh look, I think women are often, particularly women in the media 969 00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:33,679 in the spotlight are, or in senior leadership roles are often damned 970 00:54:33,679 --> 00:54:34,879 if they do, damned if they don't. 971 00:54:35,299 --> 00:54:40,459 So if you act more assertive so that people take you seriously, you get called 972 00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:46,219 a bully or aggressive often as a woman, if you embrace what makes you feminine. 973 00:54:46,594 --> 00:54:48,994 Then you get called too weak or soft. 974 00:54:49,444 --> 00:54:52,324 And so there's this very fine line because at the same time, everybody's 975 00:54:52,324 --> 00:54:53,884 telling you just be your authentic self. 976 00:54:54,649 --> 00:54:58,489 And so this very fine line that women often find, they tread and you know, 977 00:54:58,489 --> 00:55:02,779 we, we know this from the comments that the media have, whether it's a sporting 978 00:55:02,779 --> 00:55:07,519 professional or a leader, particularly in the political space, it's very different. 979 00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:10,789 Women are judged very differently to their male counterparts. 980 00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:13,039 You know, they're judged about whether they have children or not, 981 00:55:13,069 --> 00:55:16,369 and the impact that's gonna have on their role, what they wear, what they 982 00:55:16,369 --> 00:55:17,779 look like, whether they're aging. 983 00:55:18,469 --> 00:55:19,759 And that's very different. 984 00:55:19,759 --> 00:55:21,019 And so there's a lot of. 985 00:55:21,949 --> 00:55:24,499 You know, again, I'm always saying to the women I work with, 986 00:55:24,799 --> 00:55:26,509 focus on what you can control. 987 00:55:26,629 --> 00:55:29,479 And a lot of the time that is not other people's perceptions. 988 00:55:29,839 --> 00:55:33,109 It does, however, make it incredibly more difficult. 989 00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:37,399 These are the headwinds that we talk about that female leaders often face into. 990 00:55:37,909 --> 00:55:40,099 And unless you've been a female leader, it's. 991 00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:45,259 Often difficult to appreciate what those headwinds look and sound and feel like. 992 00:55:45,889 --> 00:55:48,919 And then when you're asked the question, well, what should I do for the best? 993 00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:51,619 I'm always saying, do the only thing you can do. 994 00:55:51,709 --> 00:55:55,219 Show up as yourself, leverage your strengths, and do your job. 995 00:55:55,669 --> 00:55:59,149 You may still end up being judged unfairly because of the society 996 00:55:59,149 --> 00:56:03,979 that we live in, but again, we can't always control that part of things. 997 00:56:03,979 --> 00:56:06,559 We can only control ourselves and and how we show up. 998 00:56:06,649 --> 00:56:06,919 Mm-hmm. 999 00:56:07,189 --> 00:56:07,729 Gotcha. 1000 00:56:07,969 --> 00:56:10,399 Now you have a, you have a link on your website that goes to actually 1001 00:56:10,399 --> 00:56:12,889 a different website, men as Allies. 1002 00:56:13,669 --> 00:56:13,969 Right. 1003 00:56:13,969 --> 00:56:16,339 So, so tell, can you talk a little bit about that work? 1004 00:56:17,914 --> 00:56:20,644 Yeah, so it is been an interesting, um, journey for me. 1005 00:56:20,644 --> 00:56:24,184 So I've spent a decade working in the women in leadership space and 1006 00:56:24,184 --> 00:56:28,174 um, it was about 18 months ago, I started to partner with a male 1007 00:56:28,174 --> 00:56:30,484 colleague to run male allies sessions. 1008 00:56:30,484 --> 00:56:36,064 And this came from a place of if I really wanna change the world. 1009 00:56:36,649 --> 00:56:40,879 Yes, I'm supporting women to navigate the world, but I've also gotta support 1010 00:56:40,879 --> 00:56:43,279 the systems that those women exist in. 1011 00:56:43,879 --> 00:56:47,929 And it's a system I've experienced myself as a woman, and the majority 1012 00:56:47,929 --> 00:56:49,819 of our leaders are still male. 1013 00:56:49,849 --> 00:56:54,349 So it makes sense that if we are to make any systematic change in this space, men 1014 00:56:54,349 --> 00:56:55,999 have to be involved in the conversation. 1015 00:56:56,569 --> 00:57:00,829 And yet, quite often when we think about women's rights or underrepresented 1016 00:57:00,829 --> 00:57:02,719 groups getting more representation. 1017 00:57:03,214 --> 00:57:05,854 It tends to fall on the shoulders of the very groups. 1018 00:57:05,914 --> 00:57:08,884 It's designed to support these initiatives to, to, for them to run. 1019 00:57:09,304 --> 00:57:14,554 And so my work in this space, um, with my collaboration colleague has become around 1020 00:57:14,554 --> 00:57:16,564 how we engage men in this conversation. 1021 00:57:16,924 --> 00:57:20,404 And I reckon that's super important because my experience has been most men 1022 00:57:20,404 --> 00:57:22,294 want to be part of this conversation. 1023 00:57:22,654 --> 00:57:24,664 They also want to a better world. 1024 00:57:24,814 --> 00:57:28,174 Many of them have got daughters, wives, people that they care about, that 1025 00:57:28,174 --> 00:57:29,854 they wanna see a different world for. 1026 00:57:30,274 --> 00:57:30,964 And yet. 1027 00:57:31,324 --> 00:57:33,934 They're a little bit unsure about how to navigate this space. 1028 00:57:34,324 --> 00:57:35,494 Should I be in this space? 1029 00:57:35,494 --> 00:57:36,724 Am I taking up space? 1030 00:57:36,724 --> 00:57:39,364 How do I help and support without being offensive? 1031 00:57:39,694 --> 00:57:42,994 Um, what if I'm taking up too much space or mansplaining? 1032 00:57:43,174 --> 00:57:46,924 So having a space where they can have that conversation and start to understand 1033 00:57:46,924 --> 00:57:50,974 and learn about the experiences of women and their role in that. 1034 00:57:51,154 --> 00:57:54,844 And not, not just from a gender perspective, but just an equity one. 1035 00:57:54,844 --> 00:57:55,174 Right. 1036 00:57:55,774 --> 00:57:58,924 How do we start to understand experiences different to our own? 1037 00:57:59,284 --> 00:58:03,222 And how do we open the door so that everybody gets a seat at the table in 1038 00:58:03,244 --> 00:58:05,074 a way that means no one is losing out? 1039 00:58:05,074 --> 00:58:07,204 Because I think that's the other thing in this conversation. 1040 00:58:07,504 --> 00:58:10,024 Um, there's a lot of fear and scarcity, and we we're seeing that 1041 00:58:10,024 --> 00:58:13,174 play out on a global scale with a, with a lot of our male leaders. 1042 00:58:13,649 --> 00:58:16,319 If I open the door to others, I'm gonna lose out. 1043 00:58:16,589 --> 00:58:20,939 So how do we make this a better place for everyone where no one loses out? 1044 00:58:20,939 --> 00:58:23,999 And that's how the Men as Allies program was born. 1045 00:58:24,059 --> 00:58:26,489 Uh, and it's been super popular, certainly over this side of the 1046 00:58:26,489 --> 00:58:28,229 world where I am in, in Australasia. 1047 00:58:28,589 --> 00:58:32,639 Um, and I think the conversation is starting to happen more often 1048 00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:35,399 in organizations now around, Hey, this is everyone's job. 1049 00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:38,639 And if we engage the majority in the conversation, we make more 1050 00:58:38,639 --> 00:58:39,239 progress. 1051 00:58:39,724 --> 00:58:40,414 Beautiful. 1052 00:58:40,419 --> 00:58:40,839 Beautiful. 1053 00:58:41,434 --> 00:58:44,824 Hey, before, before we go, how can people find you, follow 1054 00:58:44,824 --> 00:58:46,984 your work, learn more about you? 1055 00:58:46,984 --> 00:58:51,064 Do you, do you, um, travel outside Australasia, or do you. 1056 00:58:52,699 --> 00:58:55,729 Yes, I love to travel, so my family is scattered across the globe, so 1057 00:58:55,729 --> 00:58:59,119 I'm often trotting between Europe and I actually live in New Zealand, 1058 00:58:59,119 --> 00:59:00,979 so, um, New Zealand and, and Europe. 1059 00:59:00,979 --> 00:59:02,839 And I, um, the website's the best place to. 1060 00:59:03,449 --> 00:59:05,369 Just stuart.co nz. 1061 00:59:05,879 --> 00:59:09,029 Uh, LinkedIn is also a good space as well to connect. 1062 00:59:09,029 --> 00:59:10,319 Um, Jess Stuart on 1063 00:59:10,324 --> 00:59:10,714 Okay. 1064 00:59:10,714 --> 00:59:13,904 Since, since, since they're ambi ambiguous spellings of Stuart, 1065 00:59:13,924 --> 00:59:15,934 could you spell out the URL. 1066 00:59:16,979 --> 00:59:19,169 Yes, it is S-T-U-A-R-T. 1067 00:59:19,169 --> 00:59:23,539 So J-E-S-S-T-U-A-R t.co nz 1068 00:59:23,839 --> 00:59:23,899 it. 1069 00:59:23,959 --> 00:59:26,899 And, and for, for my American listeners, that's nz. 1070 00:59:29,219 --> 00:59:30,179 It is, you're right. 1071 00:59:31,009 --> 00:59:31,369 Great. 1072 00:59:31,369 --> 00:59:35,299 And do you have, um, newsletter or YouTube, any, anything 1073 00:59:35,299 --> 00:59:36,469 where people can cons, consume, 1074 00:59:36,769 --> 00:59:36,889 I. 1075 00:59:36,889 --> 00:59:37,699 do, yes. 1076 00:59:38,989 --> 00:59:40,429 So there's a, there's a YouTube channel. 1077 00:59:40,429 --> 00:59:42,229 All of this is accessible from the website. 1078 00:59:42,229 --> 00:59:44,119 There's a resources page on the website. 1079 00:59:44,179 --> 00:59:48,469 Um, there is also a u um, Instagram, uh, and you'll be able to contact 1080 00:59:48,469 --> 00:59:49,549 me through the website as well. 1081 00:59:49,549 --> 00:59:52,369 So there's a contact page for anyone that is, um, wanting 1082 00:59:52,369 --> 00:59:53,779 to continue the conversation. 1083 00:59:54,619 --> 00:59:55,339 Fantastic. 1084 00:59:55,339 --> 00:59:58,159 I don't, I don't know why I'm gonna ask you this, but, um, you have any, 1085 00:59:58,159 --> 01:00:03,619 um, exciting books or music that you're into right now that you care to share? 1086 01:00:05,314 --> 01:00:05,434 I, 1087 01:00:05,734 --> 01:00:08,434 Um, I'm actually taking a break from consuming at 1088 01:00:08,434 --> 01:00:12,034 the moment, so I've done a lot of that over the summer break because obviously 1089 01:00:12,034 --> 01:00:15,274 we've just had summer here in the southern hemisphere and I've actually wanted 1090 01:00:15,274 --> 01:00:17,584 to create more space in my brain for. 1091 01:00:17,959 --> 01:00:22,309 Other things that might arise from within me in terms of ideas and creativity. 1092 01:00:22,699 --> 01:00:28,399 Um, so I've, yeah, I, I love reading and I, and podcasts and I, I play music 1093 01:00:28,399 --> 01:00:32,029 as well and I love to write and I've trialing something different this year 1094 01:00:32,029 --> 01:00:36,829 by actually cutting that off for a while and seeing what else emerges when I 1095 01:00:36,829 --> 01:00:38,749 just leave my brain to its own devices. 1096 01:00:38,749 --> 01:00:40,339 So we'll see how that goes. 1097 01:00:40,339 --> 01:00:42,439 It may be a failed experiment 1098 01:00:42,439 --> 01:00:45,679 that quickly reverse, but it's something new 1099 01:00:45,754 --> 01:00:45,859 and 1100 01:00:46,054 --> 01:00:48,574 Sounds, sounds like a very Buddhist answer to consumption. 1101 01:00:51,694 --> 01:00:52,024 Cool. 1102 01:00:52,024 --> 01:00:56,284 Well, Jess Stuart, thank you so much for, for all of the work you're doing 1103 01:00:56,284 --> 01:00:59,734 in the world and for taking the time to have this conversation today. 1104 01:00:59,734 --> 01:01:00,514 I really enjoyed it. 1105 01:01:02,469 --> 01:01:02,629 Pleasure. 1106 01:01:02,929 --> 01:01:03,079 Okay. 1107 01:01:03,184 --> 01:01:03,904 Take care.