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Welcome back to the podcast. We have Ben Austin here again. We had a podcast a couple weeks ago where we talked about patriarchy in the church, and I left with lots of other questions for him and he was willing to come on and talk about this a little bit more. So if you haven't heard the first podcast, I would recommend it. He shares. Some of his spiritual journey in the church and also the reasons that he's passionate about patriarchy in the church. so I would recommend you listening to that one, we're not gonna go over those things again, but I'm gonna ask him some additional questions today. So thanks Ben for coming back.

absolutely. Thanks for having me.

I just wanted to start out with. Having you share a time when you felt genuinely guided by a priesthood leader,

as I thought about this, I thought about a few of the young men's leaders that I had. Growing up here in North Carolina and one that came to mind was a convert to the church. he's actually a college soccer coach and he has been very successful on that stage. And would spend his Sunday afternoons with the priest quorum, talking to us when, throughout the week he'd probably been talking to some pretty important people and making some really important decisions in his own career. and I really valued him because he gave us the best leadership advice that I, received at a young age that really set the trajectory for me in my life. and that was to throughout any leadership position in your life to avoid what he called tribalism. and he said that one of the most Christ-like things we can do is to avoid splitting people or making people feel like they're being split off into smaller groups. And I always thought that was a bit of a paradox, because in the church we do split up into groups by age and, by gender and. sometimes by friendship, depending on your social circles. But I came to learn that what he really meant was that when you're in a leadership position, you're meant to share that leadership with other people. That, and part of your leadership is not to, use the power that you have to tell other people what to do all the time. To divide people into, a sense of value in your mind, but instead to share your leadership responsibility or your power with everybody around you. And that by sharing that you become a good leader by opening up the table for everybody to have a voice is the key to really understanding how to be an impactful leader. And he always centered that message around how Christ always invited. So many different kinds of people from all sorts of walks of life and all different racial, socioeconomic and gender backgrounds and identity backgrounds to interact with him and to have genuine interactions with him. So if there was one piece of good guidance that I felt that was inspired from a priesthood leader that really changed the trajectory of my life, it was from him and, I still get to see him every once in a while. he's much older now, but he's still got that fire in him and it was a great strong example of, a priesthood leader receiving some revelation for these young men who, as minority church members in the area, we came across a lot of different kinds of people and instead of feeling. Different than them. Because of that advice, we really learned how to kind of engage and I was never super afraid of sharing my faith or being Mormon, growing up here. And largely because he kind of made me feel like, okay, that's, so there's a responsibility to it that allows us to see deeper into other people, to connect with other people. And the responsibility we're given through the priesthood to serve and minister to all of God's children, really is an extension of that invitation that he gave us.

I love that. So a follow up to that is what does it feel like when leadership works well?

Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about leadership recently. as somebody who studies leadership as part of my degree is in public administration, we think a lot about organizations and what makes them effective, and particularly what kind of leaders are effective. and there's, there's these kind of two. Areas of leadership that we call x and Y leadership. where an X leader is somebody who is, very strict, somebody who is very, sensitive to people not doing what they want, trying to control the organization and create very rigid. Guidelines for people, rigid responsibilities, so that they can have control and understand what's happening in their organization to kind of squeeze effectiveness out of it. Whereas a YAY leader is one who does what we've already been talking about. They. create, an organization of learning, an organization that encourages people to learn for the sake of learning independently on their own. encourages collaboration between people, encourages people to watch other parts of the organization, and learn from them or even have opportunities to fill those roles at some point, which I think, aligns itself well with award where you get, might experience multiple callings, throughout your life, sort of that, oh, you need to go experience some of what other people do to appreciate it. And then ultimately creating a place and a voice for everybody at the decision making table. And then actually following up on that voice. So when I think of, of what good leadership looks like in, in award, it's that kind of leader, who does not put themselves above anybody else, is a leader that's looking to invite others to grow in their spirituality and learn, new things about themselves spiritually. maybe it's a spiritual gift. Maybe it's a revelation or an insight in their own life for the people they love. A leader should encourage that in people and should invite that in people and invite them to take a step further into engaging more by, by looking around them and seeing these other things going on and wanting to learn more. And then ultimately wanting to contribute their voice because they know the leader's going to respond to it. and there will be an outcome that reflects, everybody's input.

Yeah, I love that. when Ryan, my brother, was serving as a bishop, they did all kinds of things to make their worship and saac meaning more meaningful. He wanted to make sure people were coming prepared to worship, and so they had Things where everybody in the ward, they asked them to study a certain chapter in the Book of Mormon and then people could come up and share for 90 seconds what they learned in that chapter that week.

And at Easter, they had Easter programs for the whole month before Easter, and they did things like had people talk about why they believe in Jesus Christ and had really short talks so that lots of people could bear witness of their experience building a relationship with Jesus Christ. And they had a musical number every single week, like traditional Christian hymns and people played guitars and different instruments and you know, how powerful music is in bringing the spirit into a meeting. But I was just very impressed with the way they decided to think outside the box and include lots of people in meetings so that lots of people were participating and worshiping together I talked to one member of his ward who said It makes it exciting to come to church every week because we never know exactly what's gonna happen as far as sacrament goes. And that was kind of fun to hear how it was influencing the congregation in such positive ways.

and those things were things that they discussed in Ward Council so that they had lots of minds sharing different ideas and different perspectives

Yeah. I really like that idea of giving people a voice, in front of, the community and, and allowing people to have. That time to, to share in front of the group is really important and feeling a part of that group and feeling identified with that group. and I, and I guess I would take a step towards, this conversation about patriarchy where because men are in leadership positions, priesthood, leadership positions, the responsibility is even greater for men to. Find out how they can be better at this. And I think there's really no excuse to not be good at it because the ward is laid out in a way that is very conducive to producing good leadership because it allows you to practice in so many safe environments at so many levels. As a man, you get to practice being a leader when you're in Deacon's Quorum, you'll be a Deacon's Quorum president and you slowly get. Very low stakes. people aren't gonna get mad at you for, maybe lording over the other deacons. But someone's gonna tell you that that's probably not the best way to get people to do it. And you'll probably learn that that's not the best leadership style. So I really think that the ward structure itself, the calling structure in our church, incubates leadership in really positive ways. but it's on. Priesthood leaders and young priesthood holders to pay attention to that as they grow up because those are super important lessons as the importance and impact of the priesthood office that you hold, increases in magnitude when you're, you might be sitting as a elders quo president or a bishop who is dealing with real people's problems and. Has to make some really pivotal decisions that could result in changing somebody's life. if you've been paying attention to how your leadership's developing as a young person or in other callings, you'll be able to make a much better call than if you just kind of oblivious and unprepared for that role. So I think that there's a huge amount of responsibility that is and, needs to be placed on, on the men of the church, especially moving into a increasingly more diverse and complex world and in so many ways.

Yeah, I agree. how do you see your bishop facilitating conversations an award council? that help the women to affect the outcomes of some of these meetings.

Yeah, I think our bishop is, is very sensitive to, including people's voice. And I think his partnership with his wife in the ward, is a good example of that. They're very much a team in the way that they perform. their calling. it doesn't feel like he's the bishop of the YSA and that's his calling. It really feels like it's both of their callings, because he involves her in, many, many ways and will often include her, in every conversation he can, especially with the women of the ward. she plays a key role in those conversations. But it shows how much one person who's conscientious, can make a difference in, in a word. And that's by no means to say that he's perfect. I mean, the goal isn't to be perfect, but the goal is to be aware. The goal is to, to be better and to challenge ourselves because. The needs of my generation are very different, and we need everybody to have a voice in my generation that, that feel like it's being heard. and that's a really complex thing to sort of hash out in the bounds of the church because we have a lot of tradition and a lot of people who like doing things a certain way. We have a lot of history and precedent that's kind of goes into things. Some of it actually policy, some of it not, and a lot of culture mixed in there. So, my generation who's going to inherit the, the church, who expects to have more of a voice regardless of gender, need to have leaders that are flexible with that and understand that and can do things like, oh, Let's make sure we have Sister aps then if we can do that. And, you know, really being creative with the tools they use to give people, to give women a voice in the church that feels legitimate, especially to my generation, so that we can make it a place where people are, feel welcome and heard.

I don't know if you've had this experience yet, but you have had some leadership roles already, have you had situations where you've had two people that are faithfully trying to do their callings and they feel very different about a particular. Direction that we should go. how do you think Revelation works when you're in that space where two leaders have very opposing views?

Yeah, that's a great question and I think that's A quandary that everybody will run into regardless of where you are in the church, whatever calling you might have. as to specific experiences, I can think of many times on my mission where, it just seemed like, or either at a companionship level where you think that you should do one thing this day and the other should, thinks that you should do something else or visit this person or that person. Or even when, The mission president's deciding where people are gonna transfer to, but the assistants think that they should go somewhere else. There's kind of that tension that's always there. and I think my initial thought is if you're the person who's technically higher in the hierarchy, You're gonna be the one who makes the decision ultimately because there's deference in, in our church to that. but that also puts the responsibility again on you to fully understand where that person's coming from and communicate directly the information that you are basing your decision off of obviously you don't have to always agree with people, but making sure that they're informed to the reasons why you're making a decision is key in making them feel like they've actually been heard. and even if the decision ends up not being something that they wanted, they can at least have that information with them. And vice versa. If you're a person and the decision wasn't made in a way that you liked. You have the right to to know why that decision was made. And nothing feels worse than having the revelation feel like it's a tool that's weaponized on you. That's not what God wants or what I don't think any many members of the church want because it's not supposed to be something that we use to control each other. It's supposed to be something that gets God's will. Performed here on Earth. So there's definitely a fine line, but again, it goes back to to that leadership. If you are, In a position where you have leadership over somebody, you disagree with them, it is on you to make sure that person feels like they understand why you're making this decision, that they know that they've been listened to, and that if you're gonna go forward and make a decision that's contrary to what the, to what they feel inspired, that they at least go away from that interaction knowing that they're loved, that they're heard, and that, they've been given an explanation.

I love that. I have a couple of examples in my own life. I was in primary and we felt really strongly about how we were running the scouts and our bishop felt like we should be. Combining with another ward, because we didn't have very many scouts, but we had done a lot of things to invite the kids in our area that were not members to come and be in our scouting program. And we had created a pretty robust group and so we felt like it would be better to share what we had done with this other ward so that they could do something like that. And so we presented that to our bishop. and he basically said, what am I supposed to do with my revelation? 'cause he felt like he had received revelation that we should combine. And it was really hard for us. And I think Even if it would've turned out that way, but if he would've listened and considered it for a time. Right. I think it would've felt different than just telling us, no, we're not doing it that way.

Right. Yeah. And I think even a point further, and I didn't even touch on this If you're a leader, like that, time is important. Maybe your revelation needs to be reconsidered because we all know that revelation isn't perfect and that we receive it in many ways, and oftentimes things that we thought were revelation were not really what they seem to be. So there's always, opportunity to recognize that the power of other people's revelation being brought to you is maybe a reminder that there is more revelation to receive.

And I had another experience where I was in primary and we had asked for a couple to be in the nursery and we felt good about that. And a few weeks later, a counselor in the Bishop Rick came to me and he seemed visibly nervous to tell me that they had decided that this couple needed to be in. We blows. And I could tell he was nervous to tell me and I don't know he'd had past experiences where. The primary leadership had gotten mad at him or something, but he explained like, we have been super prayerful about it and we feel like this couple needs to be with the Webelos And I was like, then they should be with the Webelos I felt totally fine with, that being the outcome. I do think that sometimes we do get conflicting. Thoughts or feelings about something and scaring the other person by being really confrontational, I don't think is helpful for either side. And so I just remember feeling bad, like, oh, I wonder if in his position he's gotten a lot of aggressive. Feedback from people who have been mad or disappointed and so, mm-hmm. I think remembering that everyone's trying their best so, being patient and learning to communicate and maybe asking, could we talk about it a little bit more if I feel really strongly, could we counsel about this a little more before we make a decision? in that case, I felt like it was perfectly fine to defer to the decision that they had come to. 'cause it seemed like they had tried really hard and they felt good about that. so it's just interesting how sometimes. Just the way we approach it, even if the outcome's the same, if we feel heard and understood, we handle it a little bit better.

And maybe even like the fact that you saw that he was nervous about it. Like it shows that at least he cares about how you feel at some level, you know? Right. If he just come over all happy and told you that, it probably would've been a different experience.

Yeah, today when I was looking at stuff to prepare, I found this quote that I thought was really great. It's from, The Ensign in September, 2016, and it's a bishop talking about how he counsels with the women that he works with in his ward. He says, the handbook states, both men and women should feel that their comments are valued as full participants. This is referring to word counsel. the viewpoint of women is sometimes different than that of men, And it adds essential perspective to understanding and responding to the member's needs. As a young bishop, I sit in council with primary young women and relief society presidents who have much more wisdom and life experience and insight than I. They are often very much my teachers in Christlike character and even in how to be a good father and priesthood holder. I'm grateful for the women of this church. I hope our sisters never feel unheard or disregarded. In our council meetings, word council members operate as equals. The keys of presidency given to a bishop are more a matter of order organization and assigned responsibility, but never a designation of dominance or spiritual superiority.

Yeah, I think that hits it right on the head for sure.

so as far as navigating disagreement, how do you think members can show respect to priesthood leaders while still expressing a desire for change?

I think it probably changes for each person. I know for myself, I just keep going to church. even if I disagree with something, I, keep going. And I find that there are opportunities to communicate with that person that occur naturally at church or communicate with other people about the thing that I am worried about, in a way that may make me feel supported, may answer my question in some way, or perhaps gimme an opportunity to feel like I've been heard by this person. so I think by continuing to go, I get those opportunities to confront, whatever that disagreement might be, to the point where either it resolves or my understanding of it resolves. and there are some questions that I have that I don't expect I will have resolved for a long time, but I just keep going. because I feel that it's important part of that process to maybe resolving many of the questions that I have about my own faith and our faith and the way it works, but. I think it's good to have questions with you. and it can make the church experience much more robust because you can constantly be looking for answers and sometimes the answer comes through somebody that you meet there or an experience that you have, or part of an answer. So I think just keeping myself in the fray there, has yielded, A continued meaning in my life to the point where I can continue to, live with these questions and feel like they don't, detract from my church experience.

That's great. What do you think healthy pushback looks like in the church? Is there such thing as healthy pushback

Yeah, I think as humans, we have a voice and I think respectful discourse is always an option. And there's ample opportunities in church councils for that, if that's what you're calling us. But even if you don't have a calling, I believe every member has access to basically any priesthood leader, that they engage with. If that priesthood leader is supposed to be ministering to them in some way, and. again, it's difficult to find that perfect balance but I think any sort of conversation that has, a respectful tone, but a real intent to it is acceptable. And I, I don't think that confronting people in violent or derogatory emotionally. draining ways is a productive way of getting your voice across. but I think that, using your voice to share how you feel is important and that you can go around about ways of it being respectful, but also making your voice heard. 'cause I think that most people want to have church be a place where voices are heard. That's what Jesus teaches us.

Mm-hmm.

Everybody deserves their seat at the table.

Yeah. I remember when our stake realigned its boundaries, and some people that had been in our ward lived in a cul-de-sac and The boundary went right down the middle of their street, and so they were gonna be with a ward That wasn't the neighborhood across the street. And so when they asked for a sustaining vote, he raised his hand and said, I disagree with this particular, and so he met with the state president and He explained why he felt like. They should be in the ward that was across the street. And the state president actually told them that they could choose that. He had not really considered that, once this man explained the situation, he said, I can see why that would be useful to you. And in the end, they decided to go to the ward that they had originally been assigned to, but it was after their prayer. they're counseling together as a family and they decided that they would go to the ward they were originally assigned to, and they've since built another house and they built it in that new ward that they were assigned to. They have built really strong bonds there, but I loved that our stake president was willing to hear what he was concerned about and

Right.

And give them some agency around that.

Yeah, that's a great example. that is another place I feel like you can have your voice heard. And I like to think that if you're a priesthood leader, that you can behave like this state president that, and actually go and, and counsel with these people who feel that, that this is not actually what is meant to be for them.

So here's something that I think is interesting, and maybe because you're not a woman, you can't answer this, but I think many women worry about advocating for themselves because it seems like they might be complaining or that they lack faith. Why do you think that is?

well, I can't really answer that 'cause I'm a man, but I will say that men, again, have a responsibility because they are in, priesthood offices, that they have to create a space of psychological safety. For everybody that they counsel with. And if women feel that way, then it's particularly important for priesthood leaders to create a space of psychological safety for women so that they know that regardless of what they say, or the tone that they say, or the perceived tone of themselves, that it's okay for them to speak. that's a part of good leadership is creating that environment where. there's no retribution or shame around sharing anybody's idea, or fear. And that's on the leader again. So I will say that

I had a friend tell me when she was a release society president, she was actually running. A half marathon or something with some other friends. And some of the friends were in the ward and a lady in the ward went to the bishop and said, I don't think that the relief society president should be cliquey and have these friends that she's running this race with. And and the bishop said, I think that the release society president deserves to have some friends. I don't think that they were trying to exclude anyone in doing this and my friend said it felt really validating to have the bishop stand up for me and not come to me and say, you've hurt so-and-so's feelings. You need to go and apologize. I just thought that was also a way that our leadership can support us is. Validating that the female leaders are doing the best that they can and they also need friendship and people that they can, be close to, and they may not be best friends with everyone in the ward, but I just love that example. She said that just meant so much to her to have her bishop back her up and not try to tell her. You've gotta be careful because everybody has feelings and thoughts about things and it's really easy to judge leaders and think that they're doing it wrong, but. Yeah, we can't always please everyone. So I thought that was a really good example. how do you see the girls in your YSA ward advocate for their needs? what have you seen them do?

one example I would give is one of my good friends, she, she's super smart. She's a PhD student here studying classics, and has a wealth of knowledge about the Bible. and its translations in Latin and Greek. And she really wanted to teach an in institute class and, was able to advocate for herself and had a bit of pushback from the institute directors 'cause they're like, oh, we don't really need another class. But she was able to advocate, for herself teaching a women in the Bible class this semester and. She pushed and pushed and they ultimately said yes. and the first class that she had was absolutely packed and it was awesome to see like a lot of the women in the word came to that class, not only because it was a women in the priesthood class, but I feel like they, they were there in support to kind of show the institute that, Hey, we're gonna come to this class, so. That's why we have the class. Mm-hmm. And it was really cool to see, and it felt like one of those moments where it's like, yeah, we as a ward chose that we value this and we value this person. We value that they're a woman and that they have a voice and that they're talking about women. And to see everybody gather around that and have that be the most popular institute class this semester, ongoing, has been a powerful way, that I think that my friend and the other women in our ward have advocated for themselves to not only, have a voice and teaching, but also to have content and discussions that are really geared towards the female experience of Christianity and, Mormonism.

I love that. Do you see men in your generation who seem concerned with these issues? I know you are, but do you see other. Male, young adults that seem concerned. Do you ever have conversations about it?

I think for a lot of my friends outside of the church, it's pretty matter of fact like it just like pretty common knowledge that we all have equal voice and men and women have equal opportunity to hold leadership positions and, A, great leader can be a man or a woman for them, it almost is a no brainer. and then again, that is my friend group and I'm hanging out with certain demographics of people with certain access to education and resources, which shape the way they see the world. and then in my ward, it is a little bit different. it's a bit harder to have these conversations. Because I think some of the men that I've talked to feel a little bit threatened that they're under threat for some reason, which I don't think is true. Then there are some men who I can have good conversations with who tend to be the ones who seem like they have, a Christ-centered view of the differences between men and women and the way that Christ views women. they tend to have a much more Open and inquisitive perspective on what the female experience is in the church. so it's been interesting to be between those two worlds. Where in one the world at large has, in the United States, at least where I live, has largely moved on with the idea that, Women should be in all these important leadership roles too. And for me that makes sense and I agree with that. And then on the other hand, being in the church where. Yeah, women have some important leadership roles, but they're obviously not in priesthood offices, so there's a bit of tension there. And I think that tension creates a little bit of nervousness among some of the men I talk to like, I don't belong in this world. 'cause I'm with this church and I can't believe that women should have leadership positions. So the world's pushing me into this weird position and I'm here. And I believe both. So it's an ongoing conversation but I do sense, like in the church, young men are confused. And that there's a lot of women who are advocating here and want to be heard, and it's like such a great opportunity for us to all talk about this and find a, a common course that we can follow for the trajectory of this church because it's not sustainable for us to be, to have a group of young men who are afraid, of, of women who are advocating for themselves.

Yeah. I wonder where the fear stems from?

That's a great question. That's not one I can answer personally because. my mom and my aunts and my family have always taught me to really value the advocacy of women and the importance of women in making and leading communities. And always look for the women in the stories that we read, so. It's hard to answer from a perspective that's not my own, but I'd wager it has to do with the kind of conditioning you generally receive as a young man in the church growing up. That you've got all this responsibility you're supposed to live up to, and you probably very hyperfocused on the myriad of strong male scripture characters that you see that when you're confronted with women. And their role with the priesthood and with leadership it can feel like maybe it's taking away from that thing you've been taught

certainly. I don't think women should be put a above men either, right? we're looking for something where all of our opinions are heard and respected, and so I don't know if the fear stems from thinking if women's voices are heard more, that means my voice would be heard less. I think there's some scarcity in our mindset. Like if she's important, then that means I wouldn't be important, as opposed to just why can't we all be important and why can't we all use our spiritual gifts to help and grow and build a better community? and women being able to use theirs doesn't diminish men being able to use. Use there? what signals do you that women's voices are genuinely valued?

what, signals to me that women and their voices are being valued is their place in the symbolism of the church. I think that when I walk into a church, any church or any organization for that matter, the things you see around you, maybe the sign on the door, or the first painting, or the first. flyer or the things you encounter inside are going to give you an idea of what that organization values. so when I see church leaders who take the time to be intentional about the way that they, decorate their buildings, or. Allow their events to be advertised or who's advertising the events. that really shows me the value that they put on those people. So I think that, it, there's really a lot of opportunities, to. sort of graduate from this series of church decor that really you find everywhere from the early two thousands and nineties with the same set of paintings everywhere to some amazing Mormon artists that we have that are painting that whole spectrum of members of the church and empowering them, by portraying them. So I think that as we. Start to think about the ways we design our churches and our space. Like we have to include those symbols of the women and their voice and their stories in the scriptures, and their spirituality and their faith, and put them in prominent positions. I'd want to guess to the church to walk in and walk out without talking to anybody and be able to say, wow, this church values women a lot and their voice, because I've seen some things in here that symbolize that. that's what I think about as an important step that I think we can take now across the board. That doesn't. Really change any doctrine or policy. it's just the way that we symbolize our space that I think better reflects the message that is trying to be taught, which is that all these voices are important and particularly women have a key and equal role in this church in terms of its culture. And in terms of the priesthood is what we hear from the leaders and in terms of their role.

I think that's such a great idea. what would you want mothers listening to know about how to talk to their sons about women and their partnership in the church?

I think that as a son, I always really value hearing my mother's testimony of her womanhood and her spirituality and why she thinks they're connected. And I think that young men need to hear that narrative. And hear spirituality tied to the female experience in the form of testimony. because it isn't something that young men are looking for. You know, it's like looking for in the conference talks or the scriptures that they're reading or maybe zoning out during sacrament meeting. 'cause it happens abundantly in those spaces. But I think as a mother, you have a really, a great opportunity to start getting your son to think about. Why he should value the spirituality of women as something that is important, but also different from his own experience. And that's gonna equip him with, More of an understanding of that difference and to respect that difference and to honor and hold that as something holy so that in their future callings, when women come and testify to him or share the revelation with him or their ideas, he can get that same feeling of respect, holiness, and ultimately provide. For this sort of dignified leadership we've been talking about for the last hour. it starts at home and it starts with the people you love most. and it starts with your testimony, mothers, to your sons so that they can begin to have that seed planted in their head.

I love that. If someone's feeling discouraged about these issues, what would you say to them?

I would say that I'm discouraged too a lot of the time. there's no balam that I can give you that just magically will answer your questions to make you feel better, but, just know that. I got those questions too, and a lot of people have them and we're in this church together and maybe the fact that I'm in this church with you will give you some level of comfort. Maybe. I don't know that there's another person who feels These ways and that I hope that we can find each other and talk about it. 'cause that's what we gotta do. We gotta talk these things out and come together and create community around these questions. 'cause those are the ways that we're gonna both spiritually strengthen each other, but also, find answers that are meaningful.

Thank you. And I think, as we've talked about before. Having conversations helped us to understand each other better. So rather than fretting like, oh, I don't know how my child feels about the church, not that we need to ask him every day, so how are you feeling now? Or how are you feeling now? But just having honest conversations. I think for me, it helps me feel a lot more peace because I feel like, oh. They're really thinking about this and these things really matter to them and whether they're living the gospel a little differently than I am or, or doing it exactly like I think I do it. It's just important to understand each other and where people are coming from, and I think When you can have this open conversation for me, it makes me less fearful. It makes me feel hopeful that people are really thinking about it and really trying to figure out how to be more like Jesus and make the church more like the Savior would want it to be. So I really appreciate your insight and, and I'll have to think of some girls that I could talk to about this issue too, 'cause I think that would be useful. Maybe a panel discussion.

Yeah, I mean, if you need any suggestions, I have friends.

All right. Thanks so much, Ben.

Yep. Thank you.

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