TWO

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi, that in a very warm welcome to season five episode 11 of people soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Andrea: one of the big things, and I I would like to share this with you or p supers, is that when I was writing it, I would get stuck. I would write a sentence and then I could not then write the next sentence because I was just completely stuck with this one sentence. And in the end, I recognized that the process was, again, like the college coaching technique. I'm like, Andrea, remember there's this cognitive creativity. And I was like, okay, that part where I want to write and I want it to be right the first time isn't gonna happen. You have to just get the words out there and don't stay wedded to that first sentence.

[00:00:43] Writing can be messy

[00:00:43] Andrea: It's okay to let it go. Just get the words out there and once they're out there, you can then play with them. And I literally would sometimes play with 'em. I'd write like a few, pages and then I would cut it up and I'd sit on the floor and I'd rearrange it, I'd stick it back together, and then I'd type it out again or copy and paste within the document. So it was literally cut and pasting again, for many of the chapters,

[00:01:08] Ross: Put your supers. You've just heard Andrea Watts talking about the messy process of writing a book. And how her collage coaching technique really helped her to get unstuck.

[00:01:18] Ross: Andrea, I uses collage to help people look inside and surface what's going on for them. And how it might be impacting on their behavior. Her book is called collage as a creative coaching tool. A comprehensive resource for coaches and psychologists. And this episode, we're here all about the book.

[00:01:34] Ross: From the first sentence to the whole writing process. And how she stayed motivated during the darker times.

[00:01:40] Ross: And Draya is an inspiration And her passion shines through in the way she talks about her book.

[00:01:45] Ross: People supers in award-winning [00:02:00] podcast, where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. To help you glow to work a bit more often.

[00:02:08] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk for reviews, RN, for part one of my chat with Andrea.

[00:02:14] Ross: I had an email message@thepeoplesoupdotpodatgmail.com, which said what a fabulous lesson. I'm absolutely inspired by Andrea's tenacity and commitment. And I'm sufficiently intrigued that I'd just ordered the book.

[00:02:28] Ross: And on Twitter, Jason, David Phillips said. Absolutely loved my taste, a session with Andrea during my time at city university. I still talk about it to colleagues and peers to this day.

[00:02:39] Ross: Not P supers. All the links are in the show notes for this episode. And if you sign up for Andrea's newsletter, you'll get a code for 20% off her book.

[00:02:47] Ross: Thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast with your help. We can reach more people with stuff that could be useful.

[00:02:57] Ross: But for now. Get a brew on and to have a listen to part two of my chat with Andrea Watts.

[00:03:03] Ross: So Andrea, I'd like to start part two with a review of your book, which is called Collage as a Creative Coaching Tool, a comprehensive resource for coaches and psychologists, and there'll be all the details of that in the show notes for this episode. So my review,

[00:03:24] Ross: which you haven't heard

[00:03:25] Andrea: No, I'm excited.

[00:03:28] Ross: a groundbreaking book, taking Coaching to a new Level. Thank you, Andrea for writing this book. It brings something original, new and evidence based to the field of coaching. It's easily the most useful coaching book from the last five years.

[00:03:44] Andrea: Wow.

[00:03:45] Ross: In practical terms, it takes the reader on a journey to understand and apply the collage coaching technique It starts with an introduction, including some personal reflections and history, and it takes us on an exploration of the science behind the art and finishes [00:04:00] with ways we can practically apply the techniques.

[00:04:02] Ross: It's beautifully written and includes full color examples of Andrea's own collages, as well as those of her clients which provide powerful and moving insights. I had the privilege to attend a session run by an alumna of Andrea.

[00:04:17] Ross: Where I explored my values in relation to my work, that session really stuck with me and revealed a previously unrecognized need for me to expand and nurture my social networks. The images are still with me today.

[00:04:30] Ross: I thoroughly recommend the book. There's a lot more going on in the coaching room than what's actually going on in the coaching room. Much of what's going on is like the part of the iceberg that's submerged, and Andrea helps coaches reach the parts that other coaches might not reach. Bravo.

[00:04:47] Andrea: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much. You know, it was a labor of love, so to hear, you know, that kind of feedback means so much.

[00:04:58] Ross: Well, thank you for writing the book. I've, I've spoken to a few people who've written books and I've even dabbled with the thought of it myself. And honestly, after a bit of dabbling and speaking to, an agent, I backed right off . I thought, oh my gosh, this sounds like such hard work and such a, a, a process that I'm not sure it's for me right now.

[00:05:23] The beginning

[00:05:23] Ross: so tell me about the book. When did you first think, I need to write a book about this

[00:05:28] Andrea: Oh, right. I'd only been going three years. I actually found the first sentence the other day, , just one sentence. But I knew once I was, you know, I said I was really curious and once I started finding things out, I was like, people need to know just what this thing does, what collage can be, the difference it can make in, in coaching.

[00:05:50] Andrea: And so I wrote that on sentence and I parked it. Um, I couldn't have written it then anyway when I reflect on it, but, You know, when I started doing the talks and the more and [00:06:00] more I did the talks and the more I learned, the more I practiced, more things were coming out or just reinforcing what I, what I'd already learned.

[00:06:07] Andrea: It was like, yeah, this, this needs to be a book. And I do need to say thank you to Anna Shek who does art and coaching. Because what I mentioned it to her, it was her who told me about ledge. She gave me the contact details, the person, and I contacted them, and put forward my proposal. And she, you know, they have a form you need to fill in, but I got to chat to her about it and I thought, okay.

[00:06:31] Andrea: After chatting to her, I thought, I can, I can do this, I can fill in their form. The form required you to, you know, put what the chapter structure would be, two samples, of a chapter, who your endorsers would be, what would be the key themes. I thought, okay, after talking to her, I can do this. I got off the phone, I went to do it.

[00:06:50] Andrea: I looked at it again, I was like, Nope. Can't do this. Can't do this. . I parked it for two weeks and then I thought, let me look again. I looked, I thought, oh my goodness, I don't even know where to start. And I, I know I'll start with easy, easy bit. Start with my name, right? My LinkedIn profile, . So really started simply, and then I built on it and it took me like six weeks to pull all the information they wanted together and then send it to them.

[00:07:19] Andrea: It's quite a long process with Route, which I don't know what it's like with other publishers, but then it has to go to, independent reviewers who decide it's not, rather who decide it's independent reviewers decide whether or not they think they should publish it, start to wait for that and. then fortunately they said yes, and then you write it, which, you know, you write it.

[00:07:40] Emulate a collage

[00:07:40] Andrea: But it took me 18 months to write my book. and I remember one day my husband going to me, it's 15 chapters, right? Five per section. My husband's like, what chapter you on? I'm like, 12. He said, oh, that's good. I said, not really, cuz I'm not doing them in order. I didn't know what that's actually a fourth one.

[00:07:58] Andrea: I'm on the fourth one, . [00:08:00] So, um, yes, but I was very aware with the book that actually one of the things I was trying to do as I wrote it was to emulate what a collage might look like. So recognizing it didn't have to be all the same. My story's written in first person. Some of it's written in, most of it is in third person.

[00:08:19] Andrea: The last chapter's put into practice and in first person again. So, Not that it has to be a sh complete outta structure, the same all the way through.

[00:08:27] Completely stuck - to use in intro

[00:08:27] Andrea: one of the big things, and I I would like to share this with you or p supers, is that when I was writing it, I would get stuck. I would write a sentence and then I could not then write the next sentence because I was just completely stuck with this one sentence. And in the end, I recognized that the process was, again, like the college coaching technique. I'm like, Andrea, remember there's this cognitive creativity. And I was like, okay, that part where I want to write and I want it to be right the first time isn't gonna happen. You have to just get the words out there and don't stay wedded to that first sentence.

[00:09:04] Writing can be messy

[00:09:04] Andrea: It's okay to let it go. A bit like this image. I don't have to have it on there. I can, I can put it over there. And then I was able to flow more because that bit in the middle, can be messy and feel a bit chaotic and feel a bit outta control almost. because it's not quite right and you are formulating that playing bit with the creating moves that they're shifted there.

[00:09:26] Andrea: And I thought, okay, that, that's the bit in, and, and that's okay. Just get the words out there and once they're out there, you can then play with them. And I literally would sometimes play with 'em. I'd write like a few, pages and then I would cut it up and I'd sit on the floor and I'd rearrange it, I'd stick it back together, and then I'd type it out again or copy and paste within the document. So it was literally cut and pasting again, for many of the chapters, but, but also that recognition. It's okay to just put some words down and start, because for [00:10:00] some reason my brain, and I know other writers do this because, my editor at Routledge said to me when I told her what I was doing, she said, oh, I'm gonna share that with some of our authors who are struggling.

[00:10:10] Andrea: They're experiencing what you are experiencing. I'll share that with them. So it's really nice knowing that I could be impacting other authors as well through my experience.

[00:10:20] Ross: Wow. 18 months seems quite quick.

[00:10:23] Andrea: Oh, does it? Maybe because I, I'm, I did this, when I studied, I'm very, I know this about myself. I could be very disciplined, so I would write every day pretty much. And there were chunks where I would block out my diary. I wouldn't suggest this, but I'm, for one time I wrote for nine hours every day for two weeks, and I was completely wiped out and I thought, I'm not doing that again.

[00:10:46] Andrea: But obviously it meant I'd get a, did get a big bulk done because I was so intense with it. I found that if I left it for too long, I'd lose my flow. I was like, what was I writing? And obviously I didn't want to duplicate. but normally I'd set aside two, three hours every single day to write.

[00:11:03] Ross: My goodness.

[00:11:04] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:11:05] Ross: And, and when you were in those inevitable, I guess, sort of darker moments, like, will, will this ever

[00:11:11] Ross: come together? What was it kept you going?

[00:11:15] The difference it makes

[00:11:15] Andrea: Oh. There's a couple of things. One, you know, I'm so passionate about it. I believe in it so much cause I've seen the difference it makes, I live the difference it makes, and I've seen it over and over and over again. Um, with clients. I was like, it it, it needs to be out there. I just felt that this book needs to be out there.

[00:11:35] Andrea: and also I'm a woman of faith and that would give me strength. I just felt like, yeah, you're meant to write this book Andrea, so you can write this book. Um, I had things like you, uh, I have a playlist so I put that on. I never, so I'd have the playlist, I had all these different tools.

[00:11:53] Andrea: I used Grammarly. there's a TOK which they use at universities, so I had that. So[00:12:00] so there were practical things I could do. But also I had a lot of support. You know, my husband was so good cause he hardly saw me book Widow, he called himself in the end, right? So , he hardly saw me, my family, people, other coaches who would edit it for me.

[00:12:17] Andrea: I'd send people chapters so I didn't feel that I was doing it well. I had to do all the writing, myself. I knew that there were people in my corner and cheering me on. So, yeah. And I tried to have, time out. So while I was writing me every day, I would still make sure I went for my walk in the woods.

[00:12:37] Andrea: I love puzzles, ji or puzzles, just something to take my mind away from it. But you are right that there were definitely times and towards the end I got quite like, I moved the deadline twice. to get it done. And I just thought, I just want it done now. Just want it done. And you have to let go of that, I guess, perfection as well, which was something else the Coard had taught me, you know, what is perfect anyway, right? But is it good enough? Does it say what it needs to say? Does it, help people to understand the process? Does it provide the information so that they can consider doing it for themselves? yeah. So once it had done that, it was okay. I just learned

[00:13:18] Andrea: that, yeah, let go. More and more of the more I wrote, I guess.

[00:13:22] Ross: one of my favorite parts of the book is where you're disclosing about yourself or sharing the collages of you or those of your people you've worked with. Was that always going to be in there? That, that your, your openness and your vulnerability, was that always part of what the book would be

[00:13:37] Andrea: Hmm. Yeah, it was always gonna be in there. I think the stories are the most powerful thing in there. And some people have fed back because some of 'em are, in this case, studies, you know, like traditionally within coaching, I said this, they said this, I did this. So the coach conversation, but there are like those six or seven, reflections.

[00:13:56] Andrea: So I literally interviewed people like we are doing now. [00:14:00] We got their card and we had one and we talked through them again. And then I had to trans, this took forever, right? Had to transcribe them . Um, but somebody said to me, it's like the, their voices come out of the book because they're speaking, they're talking about their.

[00:14:16] Andrea: Personal experience and the shifts for them. And I think that's incredibly powerful when it's somebody speaking to the reader through the book. And as you said, the collages, I'm, you know, the fact that they're in color, cuz I, I didn't expect them to be, they'd said they would do what they normally do, black and white, and then plates to the back.

[00:14:35] Andrea: But then near publishing time, they were like, we're gonna do full color throughout. Um, I was like, oh my goodness, thank you. Because it does make

[00:14:43] Andrea: a difference.

[00:14:44] Ross: Yeah. I think say you were saying before about the red in, in your collage there's a motion in color, and in the collage it really adds another layer of meaning and understanding.

[00:14:55] Ross: So what other responses have you had to the.

[00:14:59] Andrea: A couple of people have actually written me really lovely reviews similar to yours about the, the power of it in helping to think differently. Yeah, I, I can do this. But also the shifts it can create for people and, and the people have spoke about the way it's written. People have described it as written really beautifully.

[00:15:19] Andrea: the language that it, that's in there. and if it's all right with you, I've had a really recent review, and I'm really quite proud of this. It's by Jonathan Passmore. He wrote it for the coaching psychologist. And that just one bit I'd, I'd like to share that he wrote,

[00:15:36] Ross: Oh, I, I'd love that.

[00:15:38] Andrea: it says, I was fascinated by the links made to neuroscience and the role that collage can play is a tool to explore the unconscious.

[00:15:45] Andrea: This aspect of the integration of psychological theory and innovative practice, which I found both original and a step forward into how arts-based coaching practice can add to coaching psychology. And the reason I loved [00:16:00] that bit was because of the impact, the idea that it's a step forward and how arts based coaching can practice, can add to coaching psychology.

[00:16:08] Andrea: I thought, oh my goodness, because that's what I want to do.

[00:16:10] I want to make an impact

[00:16:10] Andrea: I want to make an impact. I want people to think differently about coaching. Not to say everybody's to use it, obviously, but just to think differently. You know, could I use this? Could I use a different kind of, creative, by creative I mean art based, approach.

[00:16:26] Andrea: So I, I really appreciated Jonathan writing that. Cause it feels like this book is important then, and what you described in your review. You know, I thought that was. Really? Yeah, quite profound for me, the difference.

[00:16:40] The art and the science

[00:16:40] Andrea: But people have spoken about the way I've written it. and even though it's quite theoretical in an academic, that's what I mean about making it like a collage

[00:16:50] Andrea: I really wanted that flow of something very personal, very, intuitive? but also with the real strong foundation of the science and theory that underpins it without letting go of the beauty that is creativity as an art based approach, that flow, as I said, that relaxation, that wellbeing, that mindfulness marrying those, they, they, they can sit side by side.

[00:17:16] Andrea: Intertwine actually. So the book was, that part was intentional the way I wrote it like that?

[00:17:22] Ross: Yeah, I think that the, the way it, it naturally progresses feels, feels like you are giving me the scaffolding to, understand, to be, satisfied of the science behind it before you take me onto the next bit. But there's always glimpses of those, those collages from you and your clients that keep the reader going.

[00:17:40] Ross: So, so listeners, in case you hadn't gathered, you should get this book if you're really intrigued by, by what Andrea is describing here. I've seen the difference it's made for me in just a short session in as part of an ACT session actually, and it's so flexible. It can really be applied [00:18:00] to any part of the human existence.

[00:18:02] Ross: I would.

[00:18:03] Andrea: Yeah, that's well described. Yes.

[00:18:05] Ross: So, so what's next? What's next for you

[00:18:08] Ross: in, in, in spreading the message?

[00:18:11] Andrea: ooh.

[00:18:13] Ross: Oh

[00:18:13] Andrea: I do have my plan. yeah. So somebody even asked me this morning, I was like, yes, I've got, I'm gonna be doing this. They said, oh, will you be doing train the train? I'm like, yes. So right now I train other coaches to use it, but what I want to put in place is a route to, certification.

[00:18:29] Andrea: It won't be accredited, be certification with certain things. Coaches that then are certified can apply for the train the trainer training. Um, because my vision is to see it used globally, right? and I can't do that by myself. So the first step is training others, then training others to train others. um, I'm going to, I dunno if you'll hopefully I'll get it done this year, but start membership for those coaches who've done the training. It's so important to me to keep supporting them. Cause you can do the training on the day and it's great. It is really good training. In fact, I'm going to say excellent training cause that's what people have said.

[00:19:05] Andrea: but to use something that's different, to work with a clean language, which is a big part of it. And the other question, techniques, which are different to how you would normally coach cause you're working with images, you need to practice that. And you don't always have the opportunity or want your client to be the first person that you practice on.

[00:19:21] Andrea: So I, I really want to keep supporting coaches. So there are free resources and there are rather resources. So I want the membership for them. I also want eventually on my website to be able to have where people can find. certified college coaches who have a directory and it will be international because I train internationally, which is great as well.

[00:19:42] Andrea: You know, I've got some live in Vietnam, quite a few people in Belgium, which is interesting. Um, France, South Africa. So that kind of global reach is, is getting there. So that's really my focus. I, I still coach individuals. People ask me to come along to their groups [00:20:00] and coach organizations ask me to do it, so I will still do that.

[00:20:04] Andrea: But because of the vision, I really want to focus on the training. And then eventually I'd really like to do some work around qualitative research, cuz it's really, really powerful for that. And I know some people already use it, but every time I read about it, they say, but we need a more robust approach to it.

[00:20:23] Andrea: And because mine's a framework. . It's not like, well, I'll do it this way. you need to use the same technique every single time. Same approach. And I think, the college coaching technique, you know, it's called word coaching, would be really good. And I have used it with a big organization. We were doing some research, and they were like, whoa.

[00:20:40] Andrea: Um, really blown away by it. So I'm like, okay, yeah, that's something to, the road to go down in the future.

[00:20:46] Ross: I'm interested cuz as you know, I work with teams and leaders in organizations and sometimes you might get a response, you know, some of the exercises and explorations in the skills development in act. Some people are going, what, what the heck is this you're asking me to do? Do you ever get that sort of response like, Hey lady, you're asking me to cut things out from magazines and stick them on bits of paper?

[00:21:11] Ross: Do you know who I am? Do you ever get that sort of response or sort of dismissal sort of dismissive or.

[00:21:17] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:21:17] The science helps

[00:21:17] Andrea: And as you said, that's where the science helps because I always start with, this is why, why collage? But I also preempt, right? . So I'll say, I know you may be thinking, why would I wanna do a collage? That's something I did when I was five. That's really childish. So I preempt it and then I'll say, it's not childish, but it is childlike.

[00:21:37] Andrea: So I am asking to remain open and curious. And there's that element of risk taking. There's adult play and then I'll mention Lego serious play, because people seem more, I don't, cause it's Lego, cuz it's the same type of process. It's that. Constructionism, which is the external creating of something which also recreates knowledge in the mind as you're doing [00:22:00] it.

[00:22:00] Andrea: So I'll say, is anybody on let go to play it? And they'll be like, oh yeah. quite a few of them will have done. And when they haven't, as I said, I'm just like, it's childlike and this is why, and that's okay. And I said, you know, if you can remain open and curious just even for these couple of hours while we're together.

[00:22:14] Andrea: So it's an invitation, really. Can you be different for a little while? and also because I worked with the unconscious and people are like, I'm not all about that. I also, I always talk about we're going on a journey first into the unconscious for the purpose of drawing up material that you can't easily access and then work with it cognitively.

[00:22:35] Andrea: So you'll do your editing, you're analyzing, you're rationalizing because that sometimes sits better with people.

[00:22:40] Andrea: And I have different, you know, you read the books I'll say about using different language. So you might not call it a collage you might say visual narrative. You might not say storytelling, you might just stick with the word coaching conversation or conversation discussions.

[00:22:54] Andrea: So I will shift the language to, to fit the room.

[00:22:58] Ross: mm So you're aiming to meet those people where they

[00:23:01] Ross: are. And you are, you are heading off their potential objections. You're heading them off by inviting them to be curious and, and playful. It sounds like that Lego reference unlocks things, and I, I guess that's, most adults will have experienced Lego in some form in their life because of the success of Lego and probably have an affinity with that and a, and a real attraction to the, to the playfulness of that.

[00:23:26] Ross: I think anything that can bring something different and more playful to serious people and serious organizations can really unlock things,

[00:23:35] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:23:35] Ross: it helps really appreciate and release that perspective and that that inner creativity and inner realizations.

[00:23:43] Andrea: there's something about de familiarizing the familiar. So because we're very verbal centric, we use it as a way to process information to learn. And when you use something different, your brain has to think differently. because if you're using images instead of [00:24:00] words, then the processing is different. and and then that's where the unlocking comes from. That's where the insights and the new perspectives come from. So yeah, that definitely those kind of things, which is why Legos serious play.

[00:24:12] Ross: Wonderful.

[00:24:13] Ross: Okay. So Andrea, thank you for being so, so generous and open. Is, is there a takeaway that you would offer to the p supers just to leave them with, to reflect.

[00:24:24] Andrea: Yeah. I think it, to me, I would say to you, you know, if you don't think you are creative, to rethink that, to understand that creativity isn't just about arts-based approaches, isn't just about the arts, it isn't about being left or right-brained either. Creativity is about neural networks that work together, and we all have that.

[00:24:46] Andrea: It starts first with how you think. So I'd really encourage you to just, just notice when you are. Solving problems. Just, just notice when you are being playful around something. All these are elements of creativity. Notice when you're being curious and just, yeah, just be more open to accepting actually, and, and nurturing your own creativity will make a, a big difference.

[00:25:10] Andrea: So, yeah. know that you are a creative individual.

[00:25:13] Ross: Wow. Thank you, Andrea. Thank you for your persistence in your journey through the undergrowth and for writing this book. I've already reread bits of it since I read it the first time, there's something you said earlier that really struck me. I'd like to thank you for living the difference it makes to you.

[00:25:30] Andrea: Oh, thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:25:36] Ross: Oh, well thanks. Thanks for coming on the show. It's been a joy and a delight.

[00:25:41] Andrea: Okay. Bye-bye. Peace supers.

[00:25:43] Ross: That's it. Part two in the bag. Thanks so much to Andrei over bringing passion, creativity, and storytelling to people soup. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I [00:26:00] did and let us know what you think and the socials, or drop me an email.

[00:26:04] Ross: The links are in the show notes. And if you sign up for Andrea's newsletter, You'll get a code for 20% off. Have brilliant book. Collage as a creative coaching tool. Next week. I've got a super treat for you. I'm chatting with Gabriela brown. Who wrote the amazing book, All that we are uncovering the hidden truths behind our behavior at work.

[00:26:25] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:26:44] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:27:00] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Yeah, because I've been listening, I've become a pup and, um, I've been listening to them when I meet my breakfast

[00:27:23] Ross: yeah,

[00:27:24] Andrea: that's why I've been listening to Hailey's, and then I'll listen to Juta and I'll go back.