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On this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we talk with our friends Justin and Tricia

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about marital restoration.

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You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better

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dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

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And now, here are your hosts, Joel Daman and Andy Layman.

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Joel, welcome back.

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Andrew, hello.

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It's good to be there.

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How are you?

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The second season, I mean, second episode of season five, season five, Andy, if you

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had this experience, I've been thinking about season five a lot and I've had this experience

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of like that means that means four years ago.

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We started this thing.

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We started this thing.

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Man.

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So long.

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Yeah.

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It's so good.

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Do you have an idea what episode number we're at even right now?

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Are we total?

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Like 98, I think.

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Oh, we're getting close.

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We're getting close.

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We should do something for episode 100.

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We should.

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We should bring all of our guests back all at once.

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It would be great.

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All one episode.

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Let's do it.

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Jam them into there.

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Hey, everybody.

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Hi.

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Welcome.

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Thanks for joining us on the Dudes and Dads pop quiz.

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Pop quiz.

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Podcast.

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We're off to a great start.

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Dudes and Dads podcast could have each other one of you, every one of you with us here tonight.

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Your time guide.

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Time.

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Yep.

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Didn't have enough coffee before I came over.

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Andy, let's just start with the old kickoff of like anything new going on in your life

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that you, your vlog there is.

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He's got a new bathroom in his house and we've been without a bathroom all week.

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Tell me, Andy, we're talking about restoring marriages here on this episode tonight.

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And I want to know how has your marriage done during the loss of your, of your restroom?

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It's been good.

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I mean, we've been at my parents' house for a while.

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So yeah.

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Yeah.

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Your parents are elsewhere.

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Elsewhere.

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So it's just awesome house, but yeah.

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In the house, but you're ready to come back.

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I'm ready to back.

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Well, you know, and so we thank you for the good, the good people.

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We haven't done a plug for whoever, whoever's fixing Andy's bathroom.

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Thank you.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Thank you for that.

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Yeah.

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This is the part where you asked me how I'm doing it.

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How are you doing?

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Do me after the time when I'm here for, I'm doing so well, Andy.

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Thank you for, thank you for asking.

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Let's see.

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Good times.

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Good times ahead.

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We, I don't even know what we've done recently as a family or what's going on.

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Obviously, we didn't talk about much last time, but I've started a new job.

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That's often, often going well.

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Good deal.

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So, you know, we're, we're having a good time.

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Yeah.

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It's that time of year though, Andy, where it's January has been weird.

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We've gotten very little snow, if any, it's 40 degrees out during the day.

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I love it.

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Oh my gosh.

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But, and we got a little sunshine today.

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So that was nice too.

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Yeah.

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But other than that, it's January, which means if we haven't gotten snow, that means it's

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going to wait.

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It's going to wait till my, here's my prediction I want, I want you to hear.

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First weekend, first week or weekend in February, we get, I'm, I'll give us six to, six to 12

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inches.

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That's, that's my prediction right now.

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I'll hold you to it.

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Joel's from official farmer or almanac.

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All right.

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Okay.

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Well, well Joel, tonight we have our friends, Justin and Trisha with us.

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Welcome to the show guys.

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It's great to have you guys here.

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Oh, hi guys.

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What's up guys?

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It's good to be here.

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Oh, great.

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I'm excited to figure out how to be a dude and a dad.

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Yeah.

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We'll tell you by the end, you'll know the whole thing.

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Yup.

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It's a real, there's, there's a, a seance involved.

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It's a very mystical.

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I'm not really sure you're ready for that.

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But Justin, so Justin was my youth, youth minister for a very short amount of time growing

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up.

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I think maybe my junior scene, how are we, I don't know how long I was with you.

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I got to Fox Valley in 1997.

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Okay.

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So a year because I graduated in 98.

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So I left, I left in October of 98.

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Okay.

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So it was a very short amount of time.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Like any good, like any good youth pastor 18 months and I'm out.

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I hit the national average and then peace out.

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Yeah.

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Hey, like, why, you know, listen, why overstay your welcome?

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You know, that's what I say, but just, oh my, it's crazy though, because, you know,

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not just with Andy and his family, but there were several families at Fox Valley that,

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you know, we developed really deep relationships with even that short amount of time and Trisha

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is meeting with Emily Wood, who was an eighth grade at the time, she's meeting with her

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next week.

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And so like there's just a lot of formative relationships.

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I think I was 25 and Trisha was 23 when we got there.

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So, so barely older than me.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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But so wise, so wise, had many things to share with the young people.

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Right.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah.

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Is there anything else special about them other than being your old youth pastor?

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Now that that's not a great thing on a resume, I, that alone, I would, I could take a bowler's

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foot.

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You're going to put that, you're going to be like, hey, Andy's next youth minister yet.

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Well, or it's just like the constant question that we always want to ask is like, what,

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what was Andy like as a youngster, because one can only imagine he's, what an interesting

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dude.

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Yeah, that's fair, that's fair, but we wanted to bring you on tonight a little bit.

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You guys have a really cool ministry.

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You have a book out, you have a lot of cool stuff.

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Just start by telling us your story.

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Yeah.

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So should I lead a ministry called Refinest Ministries?

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We started it in 2012 and it's really just an overflow of our story and just a desire

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that we have to help people, you know, restore hope and renew relationships is kind of the

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mission of our, of our ministry and we travel and speak and do marriage conferences.

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Obviously, we have a book and really just with the heart of helping people kind of,

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what we say is we go first so that other people feel comfortable going second.

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So their authenticity, vulnerability, just really being honest and pursuing life transformation

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are kind of the hallmarks of, of what we do.

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That's kind of a minute.

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Tricia can tell you a little bit about our family.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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We've married forever.

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We've been married for 27 years.

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It'll be 28 in July.

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We say we got married when we were 12, but no, I'm not talking about when we met Andy.

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We were, we, I just found out, we have a great story.

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If you guys have time before gender reveal parties, we, we had our own version at Fox

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Valley of a gender reveal party that did not go very well, but we were, I mean, we got

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married super young, had kids super young and dove had first into ministry and we were

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in youth ministry for the first seven years of our marriage and then we planted a church

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and we planted back in the day where church planning was still this little bit of a taboo

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word in the church world and, but God was so good to us.

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We started with 12 people and we always joke that, you know, Jesus had 12 friends and we

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had 12 friends that showed up and they had sandals on and Jesus wore sandals.

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So like it's gonna, it's gonna work.

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But yeah, we had youth ministry and then we planted a church and it went gangbusters and

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from the outside looking in, we were kind of the poster children of how to do ministry.

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By that time we had three boys and we had been married for 10 years and the average

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age of our church was around 27 and we had about 700 people coming.

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We had just raised a million dollars to purchase land, to build a building.

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It was like, if you were to look in at the Davises in 2003, 2005, like everything was

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going up to the right.

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And I think part of what we realized looking back on that season, you know, we got married

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in 1995 and now this is 2005, this church, I learned what it meant to be really good

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ministry partners and not necessarily really good marriage partners.

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And I think so often when you're trying to serve God, you can prioritize serving God

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and doing things for God rather than developing character with God.

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And that was kind of the hallmark of our relationship is we were gifted and not, we didn't always

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have to develop our character.

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And so when goodness outweighs character, implosion is always on the horizon.

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And so that was kind of really just the culture of our marriage relationship.

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We thought success was growing a church and serving God and doing things for God and really

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stopped investing in the most important human relationship and that was our marriage relationship.

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You know, I often think about, I mean, these stories, unfortunately as you're aware, they

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seem like they're more and more frequent here in the last few years of, you know, like

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you said, up into the right ministry, vocational experiences, everything from the outside looking

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good.

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What would you say, if you could, like thinking about the other stories that you guys know,

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because I'm sure you guys have heard now, like in your own ministry, like people are

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like, oh, you guys too, like in them they share their story or they share the story of a pastor

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that they know or whatever the case might be.

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What would you say are the emerging themes, like the things that were leading to the ultimate,

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whether it's, you know, the straw that breaks the proverbial candles back, but there's always

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things that are leading up to that, obviously.

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Would you guys be able to identify just the general themes of what leads to it?

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You obviously said there's the character issue, but then there's a lot of other things that

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come with that.

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What are kind of the predictors?

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What are the emerging themes of a path that is leading toward unhealth if not outright

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destruction for people?

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Well, I mean, obviously, every story is different.

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Our story, you know, in 2005, we kind of had ignored a lot of wounds.

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We ignored a lot of hidden sins and secrets and half truths, and that culminated in me

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coming home in October of 2005 on trips that I was leaving her, and I was having an affair

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with her best friend.

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One of the things that we've learned since that time is, and one of the things that our

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counselor said to us early on is that the affair was a symptom of much bruise.

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I think, you know, for couples who maybe don't struggle with infidelity, but I think there's

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a lot of couples who have these outward things that appear to be the biggest problem, and

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they're really just more outward expressions and internal conditions.

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And so what we thought we were going to do is we thought, well, we're just going to make

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the pain of infidelity go away and then we'll be fine.

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But thankfully, we had a counselor that was so wise and so thorough that he said, hey,

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I don't want to just help you figure out what happened.

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I want you to begin to understand why this happened so that you don't end up back here

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again.

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And so I'll let Trish kind of maybe share from her perspective what she feels like some

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leading indicators are, but I think for me, the two things that I would say are wounds

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that are not addressed or not acknowledged.

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And those wounds then become patterns of behavior that are projected onto the people that you

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love the most.

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And so for me, that was sexual abuse that I was actually abused when I was a kid and

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I never got help for it.

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And so that created just a dysfunction in me that had nothing to do with Trish.

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You know, I could have married a hundred different people and that I would have brought that

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into every single, you know, whatever that marriage was.

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So this wasn't about Trish not being a good enough wife.

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This was about brokenness that I had brought into our marriage.

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And then I had a pornography addiction that I denied and deflected and, you know, lied

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about and counseled people through their struggles and never was honest.

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And so hiding in that sense of shame, it just became a cycle in my life.

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And so no matter how much we would have invested in our marriage relationship, there was always

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a cap.

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There was always a lid on the amount of intimacy that we are capable of experiencing because

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I wasn't fully known by Trish.

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There was no way that I could be fully loved.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I would say, you know, to add to that indicators are often, I think there's the imposter side.

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Brennan Manning talks about how we live through the imposter.

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And I think when you are a pastor and you're in church ministry specifically, but I think

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that, you know, for your listeners, even, you know, regardless of what their vocation

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is, I think this is true for all of us, that we get into the trappings of who we believe

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people think we are.

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And when we don't make, you know, meet that mark, then we begin to hide.

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And the first indicators is when you know that you are living a life of hiddenness.

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And like Justin said, when we live a life of hiddenness, then we don't allow ourselves

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to be fully known.

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And if you're not fully known, then you can't be fully loved.

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And I would say another marker that more personal to me is that if you don't, if you

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don't embrace and unpack your past, you will make your past your present and into your future.

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And Justin and I, we were married for a half minute, like maybe a year.

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And we found out that we were pregnant with our oldest son, Micah.

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We were in four months into marriage, like we're just trying to figure everything out.

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And now we were pregnant.

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Well, Micah came five days after our first year anniversary.

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So we are young, we are, you know, bringing in the Gs, a youth pastor, and you know, like

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I'm a student.

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You know, it was amazing.

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But a year in to our marriage, my parents divorced and in my world, like my parents,

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you know, I grew up a blue collar kid and we had a lot of issues, but like my parents

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were always there and together and they divorced.

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It ran me to my core.

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And so I, you treat Justin as if he was going to have an affair.

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If he was going, that he was going to step in the same role that my dad did.

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I began to almost be prophesying that old.

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And so I began withholding myself just because I was scared that he would wound me.

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And so you had this young couple with these young kids, several years later than we had

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three kids doing ministry, trying to deal with this imposter syndrome and trying to

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deal with trying to lead a church.

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And then all of this, it's a miracle that we didn't implode sooner, honestly.

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So then in your story, you came home.

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You said, Hey, I'm, I'm having an affair.

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What was your, like, what was it the next thing that happened there?

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, you know, it's been 17 years, a little over 17 years since that day, but

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you know, I look back on it and I wish it was a confession of remorse and I wish it

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was a confession of repentance.

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It was just a confession of resignation.

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You know, if you have given to a relationship and you give and you give and you give and

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what you expect in return is reciprocated, at least in your mind.

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And what happens is this entitlement begins to live in your heart and that person can never

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repay you all that you think they owe.

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And that's where I was in my relationship with Trish.

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She wasn't going to be the wife I felt like I wanted.

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And so I was moving on and obviously, you know, Trish was blindsided by this and just

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completely devastated.

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And so she left the house and a few minutes later, an elder of our church called and our

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church was three years old at the time and he's just screaming at me on the phone.

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He's like, this has to be some kind of sick joke, please, some of this is a joke and all

301
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the elders came over to our house and, you know, they sat there for the next few hours

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not trying to talk me out of the consequences of the, of my choices because I wasn't going

303
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to be the pastor of the church anymore, but just the choice is, I believe my wife and

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my three boys who were nine, six and through the time.

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And I just couldn't hear it.

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I was just in a dark place and Trish didn't want me at the house anymore.

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So I went and checked into a hotel and a lady from our church called and said, if you have

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any hope at all of restoring your marriage, you're going to go to this counseling appointment

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that we've made for you tomorrow.

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I just thought counseling, I don't go to counseling.

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I'm a pastor.

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I do counseling and I've never been to counseling before 10 years in the marriage and ministry

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never had never gone one counseling appointment.

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But thankfully, and by the grace of God, I defiantly went into this counseling session

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and sat down and just kind of shared, you know, kind of the highlight reel of the situation

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with this counselor.

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And she kind of interrupted me and she said, can I just ask you, what do you want to get

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out of this counseling session?

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And I said, if I'm just cutting through all the Christian crap, here's what I want you

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to help me figure out.

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I want you to help me figure out how God's going to bless my life no matter who I choose.

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And she said something in that moment that really became the linchpin for the restoration

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that God was going to do in our marriage.

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She said, I can help broken people.

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I can't help hard hearted people.

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And I had never really experienced broken as poor.

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I became a Christian.

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I was 10 years old.

329
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I'm a youth pastor.

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When I was 19 years old, I had been a pastor for 10 years at this point and God began to

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break my heart.

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Trisha kicked me out of the house.

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She moved all of my stuff in with a family who had helped us start the church.

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And we were separated for two and a half months.

335
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We didn't talk for the next 10 days and I started going to counseling by myself.

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And as I began to go to counseling and really that isolation and dealing with and having

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kind of a physical representation of seeing all the stuff that I, you know, all of my

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clothes in boxes and all of my shoes and crates just kind of stacked up in this, you

339
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know, little girl's bedroom that I was sleeping.

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I was sleeping in the like the seven year old girl's bedroom and they had moved.

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They had moved her in with her sister and that was my life, you know, and it just,

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it just broke me.

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It just, it was like the gravity of my choices just came crashing down on me and, and so

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I wanted a second chance.

345
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I just didn't know if Trisha was going to give me a second chance and put 10 days into

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our separation.

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She called me on my cell phone and just said, I hear you've been going to counseling.

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I said, yeah, she said, well, I'm willing to go with you.

349
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So that was really the kind of the door that opened that began really what became a two

350
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year journey of healing.

351
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We, we, we, I moved back home two months later, but the, the complete healing process kind

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of took the better part of two years and I think through couples that I have, I have

353
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counseled.

354
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I have a, this is a while ago, one that's kind of in my mind right now where so oftentimes

355
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like I feel when couples step into my office, they've already made the decision of what

356
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,920
they're going to do in terms of like, it's very, which when, that's like the worst feeling

357
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as a, as a counselor too, like when you're, it's very clear that they have their hearts

358
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set on a, on a path for, for divorce specifically.

359
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And basically it feels like they're coming into your office just to appease whoever it

360
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,680
was that sent them there or, you know, the family or whatever the case is to, so they

361
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,960
can say, yeah, we tried, you know, yeah, we tried counseling.

362
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How did you guys stay because there is such an immense amount of, of pain?

363
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,160
I wonder, you know, Trisha, did you come into those, did you come into those early counseling

364
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,160
meetings?

365
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,160
What, what was your hope?

366
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,160
Like, what was your hope?

367
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,960
Did you come in with a, with a state of hopefulness or, or what were you expecting that you was

368
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,720
going to, was going to occur in the whole process?

369
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:56,920
Uh, fight club, like straight up, no, I, it was so disorienting and it was interesting

370
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:02,880
like, looking back on it, it was like I knew, but I didn't know and, you know, like Justin

371
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:09,440
said, you know, the affair gets all the attention, but the reality is that we began to drift

372
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,200
in our urge long before the affair.

373
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And so in that disorientation, there was this war raging by heart that I had lived a bitter

374
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,520
life towards Justin way before the affair.

375
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,520
Interesting.

376
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:33,040
And then when I, am I going to push through now the ultimate fear has become a reality

377
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:39,200
and by God's grace, we were, man, there's a lot of counselors out there and not all

378
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,200
of them are good.

379
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:46,960
I know that to be true, but God gave us just the gift of a counselor who was gentle and

380
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spirit and strong in his words.

381
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:57,960
And so the way that he led us to be a person of truth allowed us to be able to have the

382
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,720
reality of where we were individually.

383
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,440
And what I realized is that I had a forgiveness issue long before the affair.

384
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:11,800
And so in those early days, it was super, like I was super protective, but I knew that

385
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,120
I didn't want to live like I had lived the past 10 years.

386
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,040
So I wasn't stepping bitterness for the first time.

387
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,440
I was acknowledging that I had been living there for a long time.

388
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,360
And I, you know, I think bitterness gets a bad rap that we look at it as being malicious.

389
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:32,520
But I think oftentimes we choose bitterness one, because they don't, we don't know what

390
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,680
else to choose, but bitterness feels safe.

391
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,520
It's like the self protective armor or this wall that we can build up that we think, man,

392
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:46,400
if I'm just bitter, if I emotionally detach and just try to keep you at distance, which

393
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,560
goes back to not being fully known and therefore can't be fully loved, then you can't hurt

394
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:52,560
me.

395
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,200
But the problem is, is that bitterness always lends itself to resentment.

396
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,400
And then resentment begins to bleed into other relationships.

397
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,120
And so then you're doing the same thing over and over again.

398
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,680
And like if you have, you know, you know, dudes and dads that are married and you feel

399
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,800
like you're having the same conversation, the same fight over and over again, but expecting

400
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:18,600
different results, man, over time, that in city catches up with you.

401
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:24,760
And so it was a very slow process of understanding forgiveness, but there was a significant moment.

402
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,040
You know, a lot of women ask me, how do you rebuild trust?

403
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,780
And I, and I tell them forgiveness is free.

404
00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:34,520
We can unpack that more, but trust is earned.

405
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:40,440
And so as we were, you know, displaying forgiveness and rebuilding trust, there is a difference

406
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,400
between like, how do you rebuild that trust?

407
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:50,480
And the Bible says that God's not giving us a spirit of fear, but of sound and so being

408
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,280
able to discern the difference between what is Holy Spirit led, like something is up,

409
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,280
something is not right.

410
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,960
And that happened many times over our marriage relationship.

411
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,920
And in those two months that we were separated and doing intense counseling, I knew that

412
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,800
I knew that we had not hit rock bottom yet.

413
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:14,400
Even though he had confessed the affair, it wasn't a posture of fear, but feeling like

414
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,800
the Holy Spirit was saying, we're not done yet.

415
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:17,800
Yeah, awesome.

416
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,400
Justin, I was just going to add, I'm sorry, I just wanted to ask, you can say what you're

417
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,400
going to say.

418
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,720
And then I'm making follow up with this is I was just wondering, did you have a concern

419
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,600
that you were even capable of continuing, of being faithful or like, was there ever

420
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:33,600
in the back of your mind?

421
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,640
That's what I wondered about so many times with, with husbands that have, that have been

422
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,240
either partner, folks that have been unfaithful.

423
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,640
If they're trying to reconcile, but in the back of their mind is this lingering, like,

424
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,640
will I do it again?

425
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,320
Well, am I a cheater?

426
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,640
Am I the kind of person that will continue to be unfaithful in one way or the other?

427
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,480
So that was just my kind of follow up question to you, but whatever else you want to share.

428
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,160
No, that's good.

429
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:07,800
I think, you know, early on, and this is one of the gifts of Trisha called focus on the

430
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,960
family within probably 12 hours of everything coming out.

431
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,840
And their advice was to kick me out.

432
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:22,960
And that was a gift because one, it broke, it was part of the breaking process for me.

433
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:30,760
But then also it gave each of us an opportunity to go on a healing journey separately so that

434
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,480
we weren't rewinding each other, trying to live together.

435
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:43,920
And so, but early on, you know, for the first probably 24 to 48 hours, I wasn't broken.

436
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,240
And I was just trying to hedge my bets.

437
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,640
I was trying to figure everything out.

438
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,040
And you know, is this a life that I want outside of my marriage?

439
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:59,200
And I remember going to my parents' house and I brought, I have, I had, I have three

440
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,200
siblings.

441
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,560
I have a younger sister who was on her second marriage.

442
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,320
I have two younger brothers.

443
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,440
One was divorced and getting ready to get remarried.

444
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,840
The other was married to a divorced person.

445
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,440
And so I just felt like they're going to be my biggest cheering addiction because I want

446
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,940
to be happy.

447
00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:24,640
And I go to my parents' house and everybody's gathered there and they, they just light into

448
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:25,640
me.

449
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,720
I mean, just go off on me.

450
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:36,800
And that was kind of the first wake up call of like, man, I have become someone that I

451
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,040
don't want to be.

452
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,240
And so Trish and I go through, we went to counseling four days a week and the only day

453
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,720
that we didn't go was Friday because they were closed.

454
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,200
And so we talk a lot of the time, if you think your marriage is in trouble, our counselor

455
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,200
wants to see us four days a week.

456
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,200
That's how jacked up we were.

457
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,280
Just hang in there.

458
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,760
But those counseling sessions were intense and obviously you cover a lot of ground in

459
00:26:58,760 --> 00:26:59,760
those counseling sessions.

460
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,920
Well, 30 days in our counselors like, man, trust is starting to be rebuilt.

461
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,760
We were talking about a day that I was going to go, I was going to move back home with

462
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,720
circled down the calendar.

463
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,120
And we get into this counseling session and the counselor's like, Hey, if there's anything

464
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:18,520
that you've left out, now's the time to share it.

465
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,040
And then he said something that I've carried with me the rest of the since since that day,

466
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,560
he said, unconfessed sin always leads to repeated behavior.

467
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,120
And that just, I mean, it just rocked me.

468
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:38,160
And it goes to your question of do was I scared that I was going to do it again?

469
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,160
And it was the first time I thought, Oh my gosh, this could be my life.

470
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:49,200
I could, I could be an unfaithful person for the rest of my life because I knew that there

471
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,800
were things that I had not shared.

472
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,360
And so he said, I want you to go home, come back and, you know, tomorrow you're going

473
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,760
to, you're going to confess anything that you've left out.

474
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,760
And I came back and confessed, you know, more and Trish left the counseling session and

475
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,160
left me there.

476
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,160
We had come together.

477
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,160
We didn't leave together.

478
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,240
And it was before Uber, so I had to find a ride.

479
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:21,840
And so a lady from our church called that night and said, Trish is going to file for

480
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:22,840
divorce on Monday.

481
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:28,680
This was on a Thursday because you're incapable of telling the truth.

482
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:34,840
And so I, my mom comes over to our, the town that we live in, we live about 45 minutes

483
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:35,840
for my parents.

484
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,880
And so my mom comes over and she goes to grandparents day.

485
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:47,280
And I go to the school to, to meet my mom and I beg my mom to go to the house and ask

486
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360
Trish to give me another chance.

487
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:58,160
And my mom just said, I'm not going to enable you to manipulate your wife anymore.

488
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040
And it was just, it was like a culmination of events, right?

489
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,040
Like there was just like certain things that were just kind of, it was like the snowball

490
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,440
effect of God just saying, Hey, I'm going to get to the heart of why you always take

491
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,480
short shortcuts, why you cheated on tests in high school, why you had to better people

492
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:21,160
write your papers in college, why you always, why you stole John Ortberg messages and took

493
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,160
them as your own.

494
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,240
Like, like there was this, it wasn't just the affair, right?

495
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:32,120
It was, it was all of these little shortcuts my entire life that I was, I was, that had

496
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,880
kind of now culminated in this, and I didn't want to be that person anymore.

497
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,440
And so I went to take the kids to school the next day and Trisha invited me into the house

498
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,440
and she said, this is your last chance.

499
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,640
I want to know everything.

500
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,320
And I just said, you know, as far as the affair goes, I've told you everything.

501
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,400
And that's when I confessed, you know, being sexually abused and I confessed the pornography.

502
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,880
And I just said to her, I said, if you want everything, you can have, you can have everything.

503
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,120
This isn't about us anymore.

504
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,040
This is about me finally being a person of truth, finally living in a right relationship

505
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,160
with God.

506
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,680
And in an act of grace and mercy and like anything I'd ever experienced and said, now I can

507
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,180
start over.

508
00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:18,840
Now we can begin again because I finally know the real you and that wasn't, I mean, I wish

509
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:19,840
that was the finish line.

510
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,480
It would have been a lot easier, but that was really the starting line of what became a

511
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:31,360
very painful process, and I think so often what happened is, at least I've seen this

512
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:38,360
in a lot of couples, they want a pain avoidance is the goal, not complete healing.

513
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,720
And forgiveness is immediate, but healing from sin, it takes time.

514
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:50,000
And so we are our focus becomes how can I not hurt so much, not necessarily how can

515
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,080
I experience redemptive pain?

516
00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:00,440
And so rather than pursue redemptive pain and allow the pain that to allow that pain

517
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,080
to have a purpose, we try to make the pain go away.

518
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,960
And we shortcut the process and that's why people repeat the same things over and over

519
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,960
again.

520
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,040
And, and I've heard it.

521
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,120
I mean, I've had people walk out of conferences because they're, you know, their philosophy

522
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,720
is once a cheater, always a cheater.

523
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,760
And, you know, so I understand that perspective, you know, there's maybe some listeners who

524
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,440
have been burned by believing the spouse was going to be faithful again, and they weren't.

525
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,960
And so I totally, I totally empathize with that.

526
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:40,680
But I do think that, you know, God says a broken, you know, David says to God, a broken

527
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,480
and contrite heart, you won't despise.

528
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:51,760
And so that's really the, that brokenness is really the key to breaking that cycle of,

529
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,760
of compromise.

530
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Yeah.

531
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,560
So you said that this didn't start with just the affair, you know, it started from way

532
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,840
back when you guys first got married and your relationship slipped without even knowing it.

533
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:11,040
What are some steps that you guys take now to keep from having that happen again?

534
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,240
I think we're, no, that's good.

535
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,400
I think we're completely different people.

536
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:22,880
And I think that's the exciting part is this wasn't about behavior modification.

537
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:29,640
It was about heart transformation and in our own personal journeys as a daughter and son

538
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:38,680
of Christ, like we are of God, we, we are different people because Justin chose to be

539
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,240
a truth teller.

540
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,720
And so for the first time, he was getting to experience what it meant to be fully known

541
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:51,720
and fully loved, not only by me, but by God, like he wasn't hiding God anymore.

542
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,520
For me, I lived with just the exhaustion of bitterness.

543
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,840
And now I, I was beginning to understand that, you know, forgiveness wrecks what bitterness

544
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:08,800
tries to destroy and that, you know, forgiveness doesn't excuse the behavior.

545
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,480
It just prevents that behavior from drawing who God's called you to be.

546
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:21,320
And so there's a reaping of, of a newness, like a new beginning, the old truly was gone

547
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,320
and the new had come.

548
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,000
And so the marriage in the first 10 years we had, it had to die because we weren't those

549
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,480
people anymore.

550
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:37,280
So we just continue to live with hope and man, over the past year in 2021, I mean, everybody

551
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,560
had 2020, right?

552
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,840
We just, asterisk, everybody has their stories.

553
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:50,560
And when we thought our story couldn't get any crazier, it just continued to get crazy.

554
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:57,080
And over the past year, Justin and I, as we began to be people of truth a couple years

555
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:03,000
into our restoration journey, that kind of became a mantra for our kids and for, you

556
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,880
know, our parents as we began talking about that, because they began to see us transform

557
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,520
like living with this freedom that rather than it thumbing them down, it made them feel

558
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,720
like, man, I want to live in freedom.

559
00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:23,280
And so four years into our restoration, Justin's mom's like, I need to be a person of truth.

560
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:30,160
And she sat Justin down and she began to tell Justin that she met the father that has been

561
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:35,960
in his life up to this point when he, when she was eight months pregnant with him.

562
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:42,080
And that his dad, that he's always known as not his biological dad.

563
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,960
And so it was, it was another turning point in this time.

564
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:54,000
Justin was experiencing the devastation of somebody else's choices.

565
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:55,280
It began to change.

566
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,160
Like it was an opportunity that he was either going to choose bitterness or he was going

567
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,240
to choose transformation in the process of forgiveness.

568
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:05,280
And so that's, that's the beauty of it.

569
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,240
It's when the Bible talks about how God makes beauty from ashes.

570
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:14,680
When you think about that, like to pick up ashes in our human hands, we can't, we cannot

571
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,840
do anything with it through God's grace and mercy.

572
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,480
This transformation that happens, it, it's, it's so beautiful.

573
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,920
People say all the time, I think to your question, we'll Justin do it again.

574
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:28,640
I mean, that's a risk for all of us, right?

575
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,320
Because we're broken, messed up people.

576
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,880
But I think when you experience, it's that, that passage that tastes and see how the Lord

577
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,160
is good.

578
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,760
It's like when you experience living not by the rules of God, but in a right relationship

579
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:49,200
with God, it's so attractive that you don't want to live outside of it.

580
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,880
And not because you don't want to disappoint anybody, because the power of being fully known

581
00:35:53,880 --> 00:36:00,240
and fully loved so radically when you are just such a messed up person, it, it changed

582
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:07,840
us that when Justin was hit with that news of like, your dad isn't your dad, it prepared

583
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,640
him to be able to move through that, that drew him closer to God rather than making

584
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,520
him run in the opposite direction.

585
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,520
Yeah.

586
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:22,120
I think of the, some of the wedding ceremonies that I've done, I've used, there's a, at

587
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,360
the beginning of the wedding ceremony within the Book of Common Prayer, it, it, there's

588
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,760
this prayer that says, you know, in your time, and it's in the context of two people coming

589
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:31,760
together and being married.

590
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,080
It says that just the prayer is, you know, thank you, Lord, that you've made the way

591
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,600
of the cross the way of life for, for us.

592
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,000
And which I always thought was like initially very odd to be talking about like the way

593
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,120
of the cross when talking about marriage, right?

594
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,960
Like that you're entering into suffering, entering into suffering, but suffering with

595
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,080
the redemptive purpose.

596
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,880
And that's kind of what I've heard, like you guys saw, you guys saw purpose in the

597
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,800
suffering, which I, which I think is the key, tell me what you think.

598
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,040
I think this is the key when you, when you're suffering and it's hard and it's painful and

599
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,600
it just feels like, my gosh, could it get any worse?

600
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,720
Could I feel any more gutted by the things that are going on?

601
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:17,000
But that you were able to have this idea that redemption is possible and that there is something

602
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,840
on the other side of this better than where, where you started, you are willing to go through,

603
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,160
like you'll go through that, you'll do it.

604
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,680
It's when people have a sense of hopelessness, which you guys also, I'm sure like clearly

605
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,240
felt like you, you, that's the miracle.

606
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:36,120
Like in the midst of hopelessness, just this like slight glimmer that something could be

607
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:41,720
better, just something could be better, which I would say to anybody who's going through

608
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,160
any relationship thing, any small thing that you can hold on to any piece of hope that

609
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,120
you can hold on to, to get you to the next counseling appointment, to get you to the

610
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:57,640
next conversation of truth, like, like don't, man, take, take it, you know, like, like,

611
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:58,640
like really, really take it.

612
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,280
And then, and that goes beyond infidelity, that goes beyond, that goes to any hard thing

613
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,880
that comes to your life as a, as a believer.

614
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,000
Hold on to any piece that you can to get you to the next thing, to get you to the next

615
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,000
thing.

616
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,520
Cause eventually, like it sounds to me like guys, it was just a, it was a walk of, of

617
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,360
several small steps in succession toward, toward a direction that probably was more

618
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,600
zigzaggy at times than clearly, clearly not a, a straighten up into the right.

619
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,800
Um, did, what was the point, cause you guys had kind of mentioned it, like you started

620
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,480
to feel though, like in the process, you started to feel like a momentum toward, toward something

621
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,480
better.

622
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,800
Is that, is that fair to say?

623
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,800
Yeah.

624
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,440
I think it's very, uh, one of the quotes that came to mind.

625
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,000
When you were talking about the wedding ceremony is, I think it's Dieter Bonhoeffer that said

626
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,880
when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.

627
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:59,560
You know, I think, um, so often we want the life of Christ without experiencing the death

628
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,560
of Christ.

629
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:06,440
You know, and so, um, you know, that daily crucifixion and that's kind of in a culture

630
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:13,240
that celebrates success, you know, a name, a person in scripture that did anything significant

631
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:19,440
for God that didn't experience loss, pain, confusion, you know, disappointment, uh, name

632
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,520
one person in scripture other than Jesus that wasn't just completely broken and totally

633
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:24,520
jacked.

634
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,400
And I mean, just read the old testaments like, man, and, um, you know, these people were

635
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,120
messed up, but yet God still use them in incredible ways.

636
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,160
And that's the power of redemption and the, and the hope of restoration.

637
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,200
It was, um, I'll, I'll never forget, uh, conversation I had.

638
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,800
So, um, as a church planter, you know, when we started the church, uh, we were supported

639
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,080
by a denomination, small denomination out of Fort Wayne, Indiana called the missionary

640
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,080
church.

641
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,400
And part of the requirement that the missionary church had is I had to have a church planning

642
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,400
coach and I had to have an accountability partner.

643
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,000
And so I had this planning coach that I became really close.

644
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,280
We were really close and, and he was a huge help and he's just, he's wired completely

645
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,880
different than, than I am.

646
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,560
And, um, I'd met with him every Wednesday, you know, and, and his, his job was not just

647
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,400
to coach me, but also to check in on me.

648
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,400
How are you doing?

649
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:18,400
How's your heart?

650
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:19,400
How's your marriage?

651
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,840
And fine, fine, fine, fine.

652
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,000
Well, when everything hit the fan, obviously he felt responsible.

653
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:34,800
Um, but when, um, Trisha and I, um, when we were separated, I went over to his house

654
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:41,680
and I told him, um, I said, Hey, I said, you know, I just told Trisha about that.

655
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,440
I, you know, I said, I need to tell Trisha something and he's like, what are you going

656
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,440
to tell her?

657
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,600
And I said, I need to tell her about the pornography and I need to tell her about the sexual abuse.

658
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,680
I told him what the counselor said that I had to, you know, I got to go back and this

659
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,680
conversation.

660
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,640
And he's like, man, I am so excited.

661
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,640
I said, are you crazy?

662
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:07,800
And he's like, he's like, this is going to be the first time that you've actually experienced.

663
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,160
You're going to experience the fullness of God's grace.

664
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,160
Wow.

665
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:12,160
Yeah.

666
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,800
You, you've never had an answer really to experience the fullness of God's grace because

667
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,800
you've never really been fully honest.

668
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,040
And I just thought he was crazy.

669
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,840
I just thought that was the craziest thing I've ever heard.

670
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,520
And, and he was right.

671
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:32,120
Like there was, there was, I was obviously so painful and so devastating.

672
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,600
I had never experienced grace in that, in that way.

673
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:43,440
And I think that gave me hope that being a person of truth, being fully known is the

674
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:49,920
only way that I wanted to do our marriage and it's come with, you know, it obviously

675
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:56,200
came with great costs, but the marriage that we have now would not have been possible had

676
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,240
either of us not chosen to be fully known and fully loved.

677
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:09,280
And so I think the momentum that we, we found was through just gut wrenching hard conversations

678
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,040
that became redemptive conversations.

679
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:18,360
And then there, there became like a, almost like a craving for knowing each other deeper

680
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,080
and having conversation about things that weren't just the business of marriage, but

681
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,000
just the heart of our marriage and, and I wanted to know her heart.

682
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,640
I wanted to know her insecurities and I wanted to share those into my insecurities with her.

683
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:39,080
And, and because I knew that she, she's loved me in my ugliest form, that's, that's the

684
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,360
momentum that I think can sustain a marriage for the long term.

685
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:52,040
And so I don't think it was necessarily, you know, planned out or it was more like, man,

686
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:58,040
we just fell on our face and we're completely devastated, but we're in this together and

687
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,840
that's going to give us some momentum.

688
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,680
And I think that was the turn, you know, Trisha could have said, Hey, why don't you go get

689
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,720
fixed, you go heal from your porn addiction when you're better than come back and we'll

690
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:07,720
work on us.

691
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:13,400
He chose to go through the process with me and that made all the difference.

692
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:22,440
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, marriage is a team sport and to be able to go in, you

693
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,760
know, so many times I think people are like, well, 50% me 50% you that'll give 100% effort

694
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,880
and it's, it's really a whole hearted, it's a whole heart thing from both, from both people

695
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,400
and, and that's the, that's the, and that's the trick of it.

696
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:43,360
And it just seems that if you can get to that place, if you both know that you're both fully

697
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:49,840
present in, in the effort, yeah, that's a huge, that's a huge deal.

698
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,480
I mean, most functional marriages, you know, most functional marriages are not 100%, 100%

699
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,760
and I mean, that's, that's the truth of it.

700
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:02,200
Like there's people that are married for a very, very long time and often don't realize

701
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,080
that they've been, I think, Trisha, you got at this somewhat, like they've been withholding

702
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:11,160
something of them, of themselves for a long period of time that begins to feel normal with

703
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,440
them and you can't figure out why their marriage isn't what they want it to be.

704
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,920
Cause they're like, we're living a normal life here.

705
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,840
We're, you know, um, you know, Jeff, yeah, go ahead.

706
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:21,840
Go ahead.

707
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,520
Not to do a, a plug for a product placement or anything like that, but that's why our

708
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:31,560
books called beyond ordinary when a good marriage just isn't good enough.

709
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:32,560
Yeah.

710
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,960
Cause we didn't get married just to have an average marriage.

711
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,080
We got married thinking our marriage is going to be different.

712
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:40,680
Our marriage is going to be amazing.

713
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:41,680
We're so in love.

714
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:47,600
And then over the course of time, you, you fall into patterns that make your marriage

715
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,160
mediocre and, and ordinary.

716
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,160
Yeah.

717
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,040
And I wouldn't say that Trisha and I had a horrible marriage, uh, the first 10 years

718
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,040
of our marriage.

719
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:57,040
It was just mediocre.

720
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:03,680
It was, it just was, it was good enough to pass the eye test, but not good enough to

721
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,400
actually go deeper.

722
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,880
And so we just stayed at a, at a very surface level, even though we shared three kids and

723
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:16,000
we both love God and we both, you know, we, we had dreams and aspirations for our marriage,

724
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,560
but never the, the depth of intimacy to see those, those dreams or aspirations come to

725
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:22,560
fruition.

726
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:23,560
Yeah.

727
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,720
Well, and if again, it's like for any of us spiritually, if our relationship isn't deepening

728
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:31,480
with God, then to even imagine a deepening relationship with, with a spouse or with

729
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,120
friends or whoever, I mean, that seems like to the moon, you know, to the moon and back.

730
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,400
It's like, it's like good old, uh, since we're quoting all kinds of wise people on the

731
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:40,400
show tonight.

732
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,640
Well, you know, Louis, uh, Louis says, you know, like the problem with Christians that

733
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,360
we far, we settle for far too little, like, you know, it's this whole, you know, we could

734
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,540
be had a, we could be on holiday, you know, holiday at sea instead of we're making mud

735
00:45:53,540 --> 00:45:58,080
pies and thinking that's like a, like a good time, you know, and boy, ain't that the, ain't

736
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,080
that the truth.

737
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:05,800
And, um, you know, it's definitely not, it's, it's not selfish for us to desire more from

738
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,400
a relationship that God has gifted us with for very intentional purposes.

739
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,320
I've, I've said it many times to couples, like God wants to use your relationship to

740
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,760
bear witness to who he is in the world.

741
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,400
Like think about that, like, like that you have this missionary partnership of demonstrating

742
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,560
what it, what it means.

743
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,560
I mean, obviously, you know, there's all kinds of parallels, like when it talks about marriage

744
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,080
and like the very nature of what the gospel is, like that seems pretty, pretty strong language,

745
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,000
you know, about that, that relationship.

746
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:42,440
And so, um, yeah, I, I just, I, I love, I love your guys's story.

747
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:43,440
I really do.

748
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,880
And I'm so grateful for what you're doing, especially knowing that there are so many,

749
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,320
we could start just by in the church alone, and you guys have seen this plenty of times.

750
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,280
There are just so many marriages that are just sort of functionally going along and,

751
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,760
and people have, have convinced themselves at one way or another, um, Lord knows Andy

752
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,960
and I at various points in our, in our marriages too, where you kind of like wake up one day

753
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:09,120
or like, this is like, it's not bad, but it's not awesome right now.

754
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,240
And like, why is it not awesome right now?

755
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:15,440
And it's like, well, because we just sort of phoned it in, or we just, you know, we

756
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,920
just thought that by, you know, I don't know that I don't have, when my own relationship

757
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,320
so many times it's just kind of like, well, it's this autopilot thing that we think God

758
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,400
will just sustain if we just kind of keep it there, right?

759
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,680
And, uh, that, I don't know, that might be, that might be the very, the very kind of dangerous,

760
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,960
the dangerous mindset and dangerous activity that leads to, leads to unhealthy, you know,

761
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,200
to unhealthy places.

762
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:44,520
Um, I, I do wonder if you guys have had, tell us about, and I, I would just be curious,

763
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:50,560
like in your ministry experience, um, as you've had undoubtedly all these kinds of conversations,

764
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:55,600
are there a lot of marriages that go on, that go on for a long period of time with no issue

765
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,920
whatsoever.

766
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,360
And then like, it's like later in marriage, I feel like sometimes I'll just be honest,

767
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,480
like I'm surprised sometimes it's like, Oh, the marriage got rocky early and like there

768
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,240
was some infidelity or whatever the case might be early.

769
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,240
It's like, Oh, okay.

770
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:12,480
That, I guess that kind of made more sense to me, but it's like the couple that's been

771
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:18,400
married 15, 20 years, kind of, then something, and then something happens.

772
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:23,760
Um, that's always the, the curious thing to me, like, like, it's like, would it take

773
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:29,360
that long or was there just, was it a slower, was it a slower fade or, um, I just, I wonder

774
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,560
if you guys have any observations about the kind of early, early on health versus late,

775
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:39,200
late onset health, bad health or how that kind of plays itself out.

776
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,240
Cause I think it's easy for someone to be listening, going, Oh, okay.

777
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:44,240
Yeah.

778
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:47,040
Young, young couple, they're the, you know, they, they get married.

779
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,720
They're so eager and naive about the way the world really works and they just kind of go

780
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,720
at life and then, well, boom, there it is all, you know, they've, they'd all kind of catapults

781
00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:57,540
them into unhealth, but that's not always the way it goes for everybody.

782
00:48:57,540 --> 00:49:03,080
So I wonder, I wonder what kind of, uh, what you've seen, what you've noticed, uh, kind

783
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,320
of in terms of timelines for people.

784
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,320
Yeah.

785
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,440
I mean, it's definitely multifaceted.

786
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:10,960
I think it's generational.

787
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:16,760
If you talk to the boomer generation, you know, they didn't talk about this kind of stuff

788
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,960
and their parents just stayed married.

789
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:27,040
And so they did what they saw modeled and now they're, you know, living in multiple generations

790
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:33,800
where divorce is more common and it's not taboo and the, you know, the church is very much

791
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,160
the same as culture.

792
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:42,560
And so that hasn't been discovered, you know, for many decades for them into marriage.

793
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:48,800
I think for, um, you know, my generation and even millennials, there's been a little bit

794
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,160
of a, you know, rage against the marriage machine.

795
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,360
Like we're going to make it work because we're not going to be like my parents and what they

796
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,160
put me through and having to stay at one parent, one weekend and the other.

797
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,920
And so it's just like, we're going to make this happen.

798
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,600
We're going to muster through.

799
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:09,540
And then I think there's just a lack of, you know, Justin and I, we have shared our story

800
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:13,720
all over the country, different age groups, different denominations.

801
00:50:13,720 --> 00:50:18,240
And we asked this question, you know, how many of you had a clear biblical understanding

802
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:22,120
of sexual intimacy before you got married?

803
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,880
And I mean, in over 12 years, I could count on two hands, how many people raised their

804
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:27,880
hands.

805
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:28,880
Absolutely.

806
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:29,880
Yep.

807
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:30,880
Yep.

808
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,320
So if you're my generation, we grew up in the purity movement.

809
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,840
So it was like purity, purity.

810
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:41,600
And then you got married and you're like, ah, you know, like we're never, um, given a beautiful

811
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:42,600
picture.

812
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:48,760
And so oftentimes what happens is we spend a decade or two just trying to figure it out

813
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,240
on our own.

814
00:50:50,240 --> 00:50:54,240
And when we can't figure it out, it's in the absence that you said in the very beginning,

815
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:59,880
we begin to feel hopeless and either the grass looks greener on the other side or we're

816
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,160
just tired and we don't have it to fight.

817
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:08,480
I think, you know, in addition to that, one of the things that Trish and I have heard

818
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:14,160
from so many couples is the first few years of marriage, you think I can change you, right?

819
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,160
Yeah.

820
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:20,080
You make you into the spouse that I want you to be or that I think you should be.

821
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,440
And then when you realize that you can't change your spouse, what, what a lot of couples do

822
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,320
is they move on to milestones and achievements.

823
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,040
So I don't like that, you know, she's not punctual.

824
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,920
I don't like that he puts the underwear next to the hamper and not in the hamper.

825
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:38,480
Like, so there's, there's these idiosyncrasies that, that just kind of wear on us, but we're

826
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,520
going to put all of our emphasis in now into achieving something in marriage.

827
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,800
And so we're going to get the new house, we're going to get the new car, we're going to have

828
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,440
the kids, we're going to get that promotion.

829
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:54,120
And so you build this life thinking that these milestones and achievements are going to bring

830
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,960
you the intimacy that you deeply desire.

831
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:02,320
And so you get 12 years into marriage, 15 years into marriage, and you have the cars,

832
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:07,000
you have the house, you have the title, you have the three kids, but you don't have the

833
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,360
intimacy that you thought it was going to bring.

834
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:16,400
And so there's a disillusionment of this is as good as it's going to be.

835
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,840
Like, oh my gosh, I did not sign up for this.

836
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:24,480
And so you have so many couples, God loving church going, song singing, you know, nursery

837
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,640
working couples that they live in the same house, they're just not sharing life with

838
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:30,640
each other.

839
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:31,640
Right.

840
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:32,640
Yeah.

841
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,480
And so at some point, and I think I don't, I don't know what you guys have seen, but I've

842
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:43,280
seen an, an acceleration of this through COVID, what COVID did is COVID put us all in the

843
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:49,680
same house together and people are looking at their spouse going, I'm not spending the

844
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,000
rest of my life with you.

845
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,760
Like, I'm like, no.

846
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,520
And so there, I feel like there's been an acceleration of couples going, you know what,

847
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,480
I'm just, I mean, there's, there's a term, there's a psychological term now that we

848
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,440
have called a starter marriage.

849
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,600
And so get married and it's not working out.

850
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,000
Well, that was just your starter marriage.

851
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,160
Just like that was your starter home.

852
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,160
Just like that was your first car.

853
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:13,160
And it's okay.

854
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,240
You can get another one.

855
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,560
And, and I think that that's, you know, that's kind of the state of a lot of, a lot of marriages

856
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,560
right now.

857
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:21,560
Yeah.

858
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,080
Well guys, we, we, I want to, before we, before we go, go, we're going to give you the pop

859
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,320
quiz with you, but I want to give you a chance to plug your, your ministry, your book, whatever

860
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,320
else you want to plug.

861
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,720
So yeah, where can we, where can we, where can we find you?

862
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:34,720
Yeah.

863
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:45,000
We're still working on things in our marriage.

864
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:50,360
She actually does not like, but I will say, I am passionate about what we do because we

865
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:57,120
had a couple that came to our house a couple of weeks after everything and hit the fan

866
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:02,160
and nobody knew their story and they were in ministry and they sat in our living room

867
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,120
and shared their story and it, it changed our life.

868
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,720
And so really that's our passion is to create resources where people feel like they are

869
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:15,960
sitting across the table from us drinking a cup of coffee, talking about hard things.

870
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:25,440
And so we have our website, which is refinus.org and we do master classes every month where

871
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:31,080
we just, we, this year, so far in 2023, we've talked about finances, just super fun.

872
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:37,840
And I did a full fight on live masterclass, just we're talking about sexual intimacy.

873
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:43,960
We're coming alongside to help people have conversations that again, it's not about having

874
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,320
an extraordinary marriage by living this extraordinary life.

875
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:53,560
It's choosing to do extraordinary intentional things in the ordinary mundane parts of life.

876
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,960
And so we have tons of resources on there that they can check out.

877
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:02,160
We do marriage coaching where we just, what we love about coaching is we say we have a

878
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:06,200
lot of couples that are still doing counseling and we love counseling.

879
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,480
We're both in counseling.

880
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:16,200
We say that your counselors help you figure out how to, you know, unpack and work through

881
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:22,000
and Justin and I are passionate in our coaching to come alongside in that, in that process.

882
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:27,040
So those are probably our two main, and Justin probably is like, you didn't say this, but

883
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,640
you know, that happens when you give it the mic to me in this area, plug the book.

884
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:32,640
So there you go.

885
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:33,640
Back there.

886
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:34,640
Great.

887
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,360
Well, guys, before we go, we're going to do the pop quiz now it's time for dudes and

888
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:39,360
dads pop quiz.

889
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:40,360
All right.

890
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:41,360
Aaron James.

891
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:42,360
Thank you.

892
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:43,360
That's, that's Joel's.

893
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:44,360
That's my eldest.

894
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:45,360
That's my eldest son.

895
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:51,280
I'm, you know, we've got a, we, he's my first teenager that we're, we're working on.

896
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,760
So we'll, we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

897
00:55:55,760 --> 00:56:01,280
So if you guys have never joined us, we do a pop quiz and we just ask Justin and Trisha

898
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,160
like random things that they can't prepare for.

899
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,560
And so Joel, why don't you start off excellent.

900
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:07,560
So how do you want to do this?

901
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,880
Do you want to have them both ask the same question?

902
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:10,880
Both answer.

903
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,400
So you ask three questions, I'll ask three questions and then both answer.

904
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:14,400
All right.

905
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,400
Sounds good.

906
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:16,400
Okay.

907
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:17,400
All right.

908
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:18,400
Here we go.

909
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,720
So let's see if you guys were to, and maybe I'm going to guess the answer is not the

910
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:21,720
same.

911
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:24,360
So you, you're each able to answer individually.

912
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,880
If you were able to live anywhere in the world for a year to go and live there for a year,

913
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:29,880
where would it be?

914
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,040
Oh my gosh, you're going to, you're going to say Greece.

915
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,040
Go ahead.

916
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:39,160
I love, I love, I love her answer was what you were going to say.

917
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:40,160
That's great.

918
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,480
So I mean, mine would be anywhere there's a beach.

919
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:44,720
Nice.

920
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:46,720
That's about three-fourths of the world.

921
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:53,720
A warm beach, that kind of, a warm beach for a year.

922
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:54,720
Thailand.

923
00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:55,720
Ooh.

924
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:56,720
Oh, you're right.

925
00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:57,720
Oh, he just did that.

926
00:56:57,720 --> 00:56:58,720
That's pretty wrong.

927
00:56:58,720 --> 00:56:59,720
Yeah.

928
00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:00,720
Okay.

929
00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:01,720
You're right.

930
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:02,720
All right.

931
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,720
What is something that you like that most people don't like?

932
00:57:05,720 --> 00:57:06,720
Ooh.

933
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:08,720
Hot sauce on everything.

934
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,720
Pizza, salad, eggs.

935
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:11,720
Whoa.

936
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:14,720
I like that most people don't.

937
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,720
People like hot sauce.

938
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,720
I don't know that.

939
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,720
I don't even know that.

940
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,720
I don't know what I would like that other people don't.

941
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:29,720
I'm kind of like a, yeah.

942
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,720
I'm going to say, I don't know.

943
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,720
I don't know.

944
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,720
Question.

945
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,720
The Colts.

946
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:39,720
Okay.

947
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,720
My second son likes the Colts.

948
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,720
Oh, wow.

949
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:44,720
That's amazing.

950
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:50,720
Uh, guys, are there any, uh, animals that you are specifically terrified of?

951
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:51,720
Ooh.

952
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:52,720
Mice.

953
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:53,720
Mice.

954
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:54,720
Okay.

955
00:57:54,720 --> 00:58:03,720
We live on some acreage and Justin may have set.

956
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,720
She told me, she's like, you got to get rid of these mice.

957
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,720
So I went and got mouse traps.

958
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,720
I thought they were like gray and ugly and we got one and it was the cutest little mouse

959
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:12,720
I've ever seen in my life.

960
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,720
You got to, you got to deal.

961
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:15,720
You got to deal with it.

962
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:16,720
I can't do it.

963
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:18,720
But mice is a rodent.

964
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:19,720
Is that an animal?

965
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:21,720
I count that as an animal.

966
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:22,720
Yeah.

967
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:23,720
Okay.

968
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:24,720
That's right.

969
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:25,720
Sure.

970
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:26,720
Okay.

971
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:27,720
All right.

972
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:29,720
If there was a sandwich named after you, what would be on it?

973
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:30,720
Oh, there we go.

974
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,720
I got another food question too after this.

975
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:33,720
This is good.

976
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,720
We're really diving into the food stuff.

977
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,720
What would be on it?

978
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,720
I'm going to say a lot of bologna.

979
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,720
It's like triple decker bologna sandwich.

980
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:44,720
So much.

981
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,720
So much bologna.

982
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,720
Mine would be like.

983
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:50,720
Caruso.

984
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:51,720
Yeah.

985
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:52,720
Anything.

986
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:54,720
The pepper upon pepper upon pepper sandwich.

987
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:55,720
You're all about the spicy.

988
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:57,720
That's, that's spicy.

989
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:58,720
I love spice.

990
00:58:58,720 --> 00:58:59,720
You're not sweating.

991
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:00,720
It's not worth it.

992
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:01,720
Yeah.

993
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:03,720
Why, why are you wasting your time?

994
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:04,720
That's interesting.

995
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:05,720
Okay.

996
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,720
My, uh, let's see here, my question is, uh, okay.

997
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:11,720
What's the weirdest thing that each of you have ever eaten?

998
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,720
Like just to have tried or whatever.

999
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:15,720
Like, is there anything that's, uh,

1000
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,720
How, how, how, how, uh,

1001
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,720
This is, this is, this is, you go all, go all in.

1002
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:23,720
Go all in.

1003
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:25,720
I tried an ox ball when I was in.

1004
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:26,720
Nice.

1005
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:27,720
Nice.

1006
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:28,720
Yeah.

1007
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:29,720
That's totally.

1008
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:30,720
That's a delicacy.

1009
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:31,720
That's a delicacy.

1010
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:32,720
Yeah.

1011
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,720
That's totally, that's a delicacy.

1012
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,720
I don't see why people are so, so, so tight about it.

1013
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:39,720
Well, I didn't know it at the time.

1014
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,720
I was just eating him like, what is this?

1015
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,720
Oh, you ate it unknowingly.

1016
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:44,720
Like what?

1017
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:48,720
That's even, that's even better.

1018
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:49,720
That's amazing.

1019
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:51,720
Elijah, my son loved that.

1020
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,720
He was, he was first thing he said when they got off the plane from

1021
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,720
Africa, dad and I ate ox balls.

1022
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:57,720
Yeah.

1023
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:59,720
That's a total life change.

1024
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,720
We tried to invest, you know, the gospel into people's hearts,

1025
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,720
but that was the one that took away.

1026
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:05,720
Oh man.

1027
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:06,720
That's a boy for you.

1028
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:07,720
There you go.

1029
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:08,720
Tricia, what about you?

1030
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:09,720
Weirdest thing?

1031
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:10,720
Uh, bone marrow.

1032
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:11,720
Ooh.

1033
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:12,720
I know.

1034
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,720
It was at the Swanky restaurant and they know what I was doing.

1035
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:16,720
And it was delicious.

1036
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:17,720
It is.

1037
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:18,720
It is absolutely delicious.

1038
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:19,720
Disgusted by it.

1039
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,720
And I was like, this is amazing.

1040
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,720
No, do they serve it to you as like the bone like cut in half and then.

1041
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:25,720
Yeah.

1042
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:26,720
Yeah.

1043
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:27,720
Right.

1044
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:28,720
Okay.

1045
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:29,720
They broiled it.

1046
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:30,720
Yeah.

1047
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:31,720
But wait, wait.

1048
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:32,720
He's telling you don't do that one.

1049
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:33,720
He just had.

1050
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:34,720
I mean.

1051
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:35,720
Zero room.

1052
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:36,720
Zero room.

1053
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:37,720
Okay.

1054
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:42,720
Last question.

1055
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,720
What are you most excited about right now?

1056
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:47,720
Oh wow.

1057
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,720
Well, um, I am most excited right now.

1058
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:57,720
Um, I turned in my second book, um, about a month ago and it's in the

1059
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:58,720
editing process.

1060
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,720
So I'm excited just to kind of see that through to completion and see how it's

1061
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:03,720
supposed to be released in October.

1062
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:04,720
Um, and so I'm excited.

1063
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,720
I'm excited about that.

1064
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:07,720
Um, I'm excited.

1065
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,720
I went back to college.

1066
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,720
My traditional year to graduate was in 1997.

1067
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,720
Slight delay.

1068
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:17,720
Yeah.

1069
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:18,720
So, yeah.

1070
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,720
So I went back and I went in as like a second semester junior.

1071
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:27,720
So I will graduate with my bachelor's in human services, uh, with a

1072
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:32,720
certification in life coaching in 20, in November of 2024.

1073
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:33,720
Excellent.

1074
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:34,720
Awesome.

1075
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:35,720
Excellent.

1076
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:36,720
Good for you, Trisha.

1077
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:37,720
That's awesome.

1078
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:38,720
That is so awesome.

1079
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,720
And the clock is ticking.

1080
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,720
I can't tell, but it's, it's happening.

1081
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:47,720
Guys, we want to thank you for being on the show tonight.

1082
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:48,720
We really appreciate you guys.

1083
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,720
We'll, uh, this episode will release next Tuesday, not, not this coming Tuesday,

1084
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:54,720
the following Tuesday.

1085
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,720
And we'll make it, we'll, you know, put all of your details on there.

1086
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,720
We will make you embarrassingly easy to find our friends, our friend, any of

1087
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:02,720
down.

1088
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:03,720
Yes.

1089
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,720
Embarrassingly easy to find, uh, always so grateful for folks like you coming

1090
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:07,720
on.

1091
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,720
And, uh, for all of you listeners, uh, as always, you can hit us up with a

1092
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,720
delightful email with your, your thoughts, your reflections at Jews and

1093
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:20,720
dads podcast at gmail.com or you can head over to dudes and dads podcast.com for

1094
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,720
all the show notes and all that good stuff.

1095
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,720
Andy, is there anything else they can do?

1096
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,720
Uh, they could go to our Instagram page.

1097
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:33,720
They could go guys, like share and YouTube and YouTube and all the things

1098
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:34,720
subscribe on YouTube.

1099
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:35,720
Please do the subscription thing.

1100
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:36,720
It helps us out.

1101
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:37,720
Help people find it.

1102
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,720
So, uh, guys, we're grateful for the, uh, you're listening and we're grateful

1103
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:41,720
for your responses.

1104
01:02:41,720 --> 01:03:07,720
And until next time, we wish you grace and peace.