1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,960 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn from a 20-year design for manufacturing expert on how to ensure a smooth transition 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,820 Kevin Mako: from product development to your first manufacturing run. 3 00:00:12,470 --> 00:00:21,410 Narrator: You're listening to the Product Startup Podcast, the show that helps bring your product idea to life by chatting with successful inventors, 4 00:00:21,790 --> 00:00:29,730 Narrator: product developers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful, from 5 00:00:29,730 --> 00:00:39,130 Narrator: initial idea to getting your product on store shelves. We're taking you step by step to build a functional product and scale your product business. 6 00:00:39,370 --> 00:00:48,070 Narrator: Hosted by Kevin Mako, one of North America's leading experts on hardware development for small product businesses. Now, on to the show. 7 00:00:49,030 --> 00:00:52,470 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Michael Corr to the show. 8 00:00:52,730 --> 00:00:59,610 Kevin Mako: Michael is the founder of Jural PDM, a product development management tool for centralizing the entire communication process from development to production. 9 00:00:59,750 --> 00:01:06,870 Kevin Mako: They have thousands of users improving their design for manufacturing. process today. Michael is going to share some valuable knowledge on how inventors, startups, and 10 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:11,610 Kevin Mako: small manufacturers can understand what design for manufacturing is, what is required to fill the 11 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:19,330 Kevin Mako: gap between product development and your first production run, and how to communicate effectively with all manufacturing stakeholders, especially on your first production run. 12 00:01:19,610 --> 00:01:20,690 Kevin Mako: Now, on to the episode. 13 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:28,610 Kevin Mako: Hey, Michael, welcome to the show. Hi, pleasure to be here. I'm excited to talk to you today about design for manufacturing. You've been doing this for over 14 00:01:28,610 --> 00:01:36,150 Kevin Mako: 20 years, and it's a really important subject, whether it's industrial design, mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, or all three of those baked into your product, 15 00:01:36,330 --> 00:01:43,490 Kevin Mako: whether you're starting a new product or you're expanding your product line, there becomes a transition between design and development, your design and prototyping work, 16 00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:48,990 Kevin Mako: and then the eventual production of that. You've created beautiful software called Jero that helps smooth that process out. 17 00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:51,890 Kevin Mako: But first and foremost, congratulations on a big funding round. 18 00:01:52,030 --> 00:01:56,530 Michael Corr: I know you're just featured in TechCrunch there, so I'm excited to see Jero taking off. Oh, yeah. Thank you. 19 00:01:56,610 --> 00:02:00,910 Michael Corr: We're really excited to getting some notoriety about the work that we're doing and really 20 00:02:00,910 --> 00:02:08,890 Kevin Mako: helping the large hardware community. That's incredible. Give us a bit of a background. How did you get from where you are to now owning this amazing hardware platform 21 00:02:08,890 --> 00:02:17,410 Michael Corr: with thousands of users? Yeah. So actually, my background, I'm an electrical engineer. I've been designing manufacturing products for over 20 years, a wide range of 22 00:02:17,410 --> 00:02:25,190 Michael Corr: products, anything from telecom equipment to industrial drones, wearables, IoT, you name it. And I've seen quite a lot. 23 00:02:25,450 --> 00:02:31,750 Michael Corr: I've worked a lot with overseas manufacturers, you know, predominantly tier three, but also tier two and tier one. 24 00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:37,790 Michael Corr: I even have my own business working in Hong Kong, helping companies get up and running in Shenzhen, gain their products to production. 25 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:47,690 Michael Corr: And I've seen quite a lot of mistakes and also big wins and really learned along the way what does make a hardware company successful, certainly reducing their costs 26 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:55,050 Kevin Mako: and revision cycles to get to production successfully. That's great. Now you've obviously built software to help do that. Let's start big picture here. 27 00:02:55,470 --> 00:02:58,410 Kevin Mako: Then we'll get into the nitty gritty details and some of the bigger tips and tips. 28 00:02:58,550 --> 00:03:02,690 Michael Corr: But let's take it right to the top of the pyramid here. What is DFM? 29 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:10,660 Michael Corr: Yeah, it's a great question. It's something that I certainly did not learn my university or studying electrical engineering or even any mechanical engineering. 30 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:17,380 Michael Corr: It's something I learned on the job. But it's incredibly important and really helps more successful teams be more efficient with their design. 31 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:25,240 Michael Corr: So DFM, design for manufacturing abilities. It's a layer past making your designs functional, electrical circuit design or even 32 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,820 Michael Corr: mechanical assembly design, but making decisions to make it more easily manufactured. 33 00:03:30,540 --> 00:03:37,480 Michael Corr: or more cost-effectively manufactured. And sometimes it has nothing to do with the functional purpose of the product, 34 00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:44,720 Michael Corr: but maybe changing like a draft angle on a mechanical part or rearranging how your passives are laid out on your circuit board 35 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:52,940 Kevin Mako: can really improve the efficiency and improve the yield for manufacturability. This is a big deal because there's a transition 36 00:03:52,940 --> 00:03:58,400 Kevin Mako: between designing and prototyping the product and making it work well and the actual production of those units. 37 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:05,980 Kevin Mako: And a lot of the time, especially for a hardware startup, that is a bit of an unknown. It's a void or a gap in your understanding of development. 38 00:04:06,180 --> 00:04:13,160 Kevin Mako: The simple truth is if you design a product and even if you have a decent prototype, it's not yet ready for production. 39 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:22,600 Kevin Mako: There is this very critical next step that hopefully it's been designed well and designed professionally up to that point so that it is a relatively easy, let's call it starting 40 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,940 Kevin Mako: template to actually do the design for manufacturing. But there's that step, that gap where you take a great design. 41 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:37,020 Kevin Mako: And then you figure out all the little tiny, microscopic manufacturing details that all interrelate to figure out how to actually produce each and every 42 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:43,920 Kevin Mako: part and how to put those parts together. And that is a very critical step. And this is where so much of your experience lies. So let's get into it. 43 00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:48,420 Kevin Mako: Talk a bit about what you've seen in that transition or some of the misunderstandings about 44 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:56,440 Michael Corr: it or whatever else from your design and carrying through into your actual production phase in that gap in the middle, which we call DFM or design for manufacturing. 45 00:04:56,900 --> 00:05:05,540 Michael Corr: Yeah. Well, I mean, I can remember back to even earlier in my career and, you know, I had been through quite a handful of design cycles of PCBA as a electrical 46 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:14,600 Michael Corr: engineer, but I had never actually seen my designs being manufactured. I would just get the finished products, you know, back in my box, you know, my desk and I'd review them 47 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:20,760 Michael Corr: for functional purposes. But it wasn't until the first time I actually went to a factory and saw my 48 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:27,360 Michael Corr: personal designs being manufactured and how they were doing it, you know, mixed between the reflow or the wave. or hand soldering. 49 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:36,620 Michael Corr: And I started to ask questions because I saw some of the assembly team was hand soldering a handful of parts. And I asked them, why are you doing that? You know, that's very 50 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:43,220 Michael Corr: high risk, high cost, consistent. And they just flat out told me it's because the parts are too close together on the board. 51 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:50,560 Michael Corr: And our reflow equipment can't properly solder those reliably. And so we have to do it by hand. And I had never heard that before. 52 00:05:51,060 --> 00:05:59,720 Michael Corr: And so I said, well, it's very simple for me to move those parts, you know, further apart. And they said, great. And I said, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, 53 00:06:00,280 --> 00:06:06,080 Michael Corr: what else? You know, what else can you show me? What else should I be doing so that I can make your jobs easier? 54 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:12,440 Michael Corr: And that was like the huge light bulb that I had in my career, like, oh, it's not just 55 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:21,620 Michael Corr: about designing it for functionality, but it's also about how do I make it design so that it's easier and cheaper and more reliable to actually be manufactured. 56 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:28,800 Michael Corr: And that's what really opened up the door for me to kind of just consume as much as I could, not just on circuit board assembly, 57 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:34,840 Kevin Mako: but even mechanical parts, whether it's C&C or injection molding. How can we make subtle changes 58 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:41,560 Kevin Mako: that really improve the manufacturing and even assembly process? That stuff is so important because 59 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:48,800 Kevin Mako: first of all, it eases the speed, the time, the money to actually get to production, but it also means that the production yield will be better quality. 60 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:56,460 Kevin Mako: The units will be more reliable, more robust, possibly even and likely even cheaper if it's done well. We do all kinds of design and manufacturing. 61 00:06:56,980 --> 00:07:02,040 Kevin Mako: The whole purpose at Aqua Design is to take that invention idea from that sketch on your head all the way through to production. 62 00:07:02,420 --> 00:07:09,180 Kevin Mako: But one of the things that we found is extremely important and we've been doing for many years is even in the early concept design phases, it's important 63 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:14,060 Kevin Mako: to consider manufactureability. Obviously, we'll be able to get into the finite details until you're 64 00:07:14,060 --> 00:07:17,980 Kevin Mako: further down the road into the detailed engineering and prototyping review and all that. But if you 65 00:07:17,980 --> 00:07:25,440 Kevin Mako: build a model, like you said, in the early phases when you were working with that, that factory, slight changes, very basic fundamental observations to 66 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:32,100 Kevin Mako: the base functionality of your product. If you build those in from the beginning, that means all kinds of lower reworks in the 67 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:37,760 Kevin Mako: future, better quality, more time spent on the difficult details, less time spent on the easy 68 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:45,920 Kevin Mako: details. So one of the first things that I found that can be very helpful when you're thinking about producing a product is think about production from day one. 69 00:07:46,060 --> 00:07:51,860 Kevin Mako: And then as you're getting closer and closer to production, of course, you should be moving your matrix from starting 70 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:56,460 Kevin Mako: heavy in design, light in production thinking, to heavy in production thinking, light and design. 71 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,120 Kevin Mako: And that kind of is flowing as you go through your rounds of prototypes and into your production 72 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:09,040 Michael Corr: and all that sort of thing. How does your history in looking at those sorts of things, and of course your software as well help with easing out those processes in between? 73 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:18,140 Michael Corr: Yeah, it's a great question. The way I like to think about it is what's the cost to fix an issue. And there's different units for when the issue is discovered. 74 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:27,040 Michael Corr: So when an issue is discovered during the design cycle, we'll say that that cost to fix it is like a unit value of one, right? The engineer catches the problem. 75 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:35,920 Michael Corr: They're already in design processing. They can very simply make the necessary adjustments. When something is in production or just pre-production, an 76 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:44,000 Michael Corr: issue is found, there's a higher cost because now those designs have disseminated to multiple teams. The original engineer sometimes has to be called back. 77 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:52,220 Michael Corr: It might have been weeks since they've even looked at that design, so they have to refresh their minds with it. So we'll say that cost to fix it as a unit of 10. 78 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,280 Michael Corr: And then the worst is if the product, the issue is found when the product's in the customer's hands, 79 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:06,240 Michael Corr: you know, and that's when it's already out in the field, who knows if it has to be recalled, or if it's just a one-off issue. And we'll say the cost to fix it at that point is the, 80 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:14,640 Michael Corr: you know, a value of 100, right? These are simple terms, which kind of exemplifies the point. And so the goal is always how do we constantly reduce the 81 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:22,080 Michael Corr: cost to fix something if and when an issue arises? And so you're always trying to empower the designers, the original engineering team, 82 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:31,340 Michael Corr: to have access to that information as early and easily as possible so that if an issue arises, whether it's from a design capability, whether it's from a 83 00:09:31,340 --> 00:09:38,560 Michael Corr: supply chain issue, whether it's from a functionality issue, the cost to fix it is constantly reduced. And those are the types of things. 84 00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:44,500 Michael Corr: And so focusing on DFM, obviously, you know, the more information a design engineer has. 85 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:50,580 Michael Corr: So there are basic principles about what are good practices for design for manufacturing and those are pretty ubiquitous. 86 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:58,900 Michael Corr: But there are nuances that are specific to the actual manufacturer, right? The manufacturer has their own equipment that they use to manufacture your product, 87 00:09:59,020 --> 00:10:06,960 Michael Corr: which might vary from manufacturer to manufacturer or their own processes. And those two might have some nuances that are specific to that manufacturer. 88 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:16,520 Michael Corr: So it's not just about going to a book and reading what are the best practices, but actually talking to a manufacturer and say, how would you manufacture this design 89 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:24,300 Michael Corr: before you release it to them? And they can provide that feedback to you well because of the tolerances of our particular equipment. 90 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,740 Michael Corr: We need you to make these changes, or because of the processes that we use or prioritize, we need to make these changes. 91 00:10:29,980 --> 00:10:36,280 Kevin Mako: And so, again, bringing that information to the designer up front reduces the cost to make that change. 92 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:44,500 Kevin Mako: If you wait until the design's actually been released and in the manufacturer's hands to get that feedback, you've now increased the cost to fix it. 93 00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:50,330 Kevin Mako: That's brilliant. I love the fact that you're looking at the cost and explaining how it balloons over time 94 00:10:50,330 --> 00:10:59,590 Kevin Mako: because one of the easy things on the outsider, at least it looks easy, to do in the early phase of development, saying, well, let's skip a prototype because we can figure that 95 00:10:59,590 --> 00:11:08,250 Kevin Mako: out later in production because we're going to save whatever the few thousands or a few tens of thousands of dollars and not doing that version and not ironing out those bugs then. 96 00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:16,830 Kevin Mako: Although that seemed like it might make sense to get you to production faster, all you're pushing the buck down the road and not only pushing it down the road, but substantially 97 00:11:17,230 --> 00:11:20,390 Kevin Mako: enhancing that. Like you said, by the time it's in the customer's hands, that's far too late, 98 00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:24,710 Kevin Mako: but understand that before that, there's also a ballooning effect that's occurring. So the more 99 00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:29,050 Kevin Mako: that you can figure out before you're actually getting to the producer, or at least in combination 100 00:11:29,050 --> 00:11:35,130 Kevin Mako: with the producer, the easier it will be to smooth those things out and you'll be reducing substantial cost down the road. 101 00:11:35,230 --> 00:11:42,350 Kevin Mako: And I like really how you've paired that with the fact that every product is unique. Everything has their own nuances. So although you can build something to a 102 00:11:42,350 --> 00:11:48,810 Kevin Mako: perfect design, perfect textbook spec, let's call it, in the first place. You've gone through design, engineering prototype, but you've got a good product. 103 00:11:48,990 --> 00:11:54,350 Kevin Mako: It's built DFM to spec. Know that you need a little bit more than that. And that's where the true DFM work comes into play. Generally, 104 00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:59,730 Kevin Mako: sometimes between your kind of final development prototype and your first production sample, 105 00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:03,550 Kevin Mako: somewhere in between there is that moment where you're taking all those nuances, both from a 106 00:12:03,550 --> 00:12:07,530 Michael Corr: product perspective, but also from the manufacturing logistics perspective. What equipment do 107 00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:12,030 Michael Corr: they use and how do they use it specifically to making each of the parts on your unique product? 108 00:12:12,350 --> 00:12:16,130 Michael Corr: That's where some of those little unique elements come into play, where it saves you a heck 109 00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:24,230 Michael Corr: a lot more money in the long run to sort those out today than it does to wait till their problems tomorrow. There's something too that people need to really think through. 110 00:12:24,450 --> 00:12:30,850 Michael Corr: Your manufacturers do have your best interest in mind and they want to help you, but they don't know your product as well as you do. 111 00:12:31,070 --> 00:12:39,550 Michael Corr: So there's only so far that they can go to improve your product or make decisions around making more manufacturable without actually having negative impact. 112 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:46,690 Michael Corr: The best decision makers are always going to be you. Right. You want to do it in concert with your manufacturers and your suppliers, but it really falls on 113 00:12:46,690 --> 00:12:54,350 Michael Corr: you and throwing the designs over the wall and say, well, we'll just fix it in manufacturing or rely on our contract manufacturer to fix it. They've got more experience in us. 114 00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:57,430 Michael Corr: That's a little bit blindsided. Yes, they can do some things. 115 00:12:57,550 --> 00:13:02,730 Kevin Mako: And certainly that's why you've hired them. They have access to more suppliers, to more processes. They've seen more things. 116 00:13:02,870 --> 00:13:12,330 Kevin Mako: But they don't always know what the impact is going to be of a change. And so, again, you're just making it more expensive when you do throw it over the wall and rely. 117 00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:21,210 Kevin Mako: on your contract manufacturer to be that backstop. It's really got to start from you. There's another really good point that's in there that you've mentioned is it's when you're at 118 00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:26,950 Kevin Mako: that manufacturing phase, make sure that you've got your eyes on the price, primarily from your designers and engineers. 119 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:36,730 Kevin Mako: They need to be involved in that process because if you leave all of that decision making, especially on those detailed technical elements up to your manufacturer exclusively, 120 00:13:37,070 --> 00:13:41,310 Kevin Mako: as you said, they may miss some things that really matter to your product, that they may not 121 00:13:41,310 --> 00:13:44,770 Kevin Mako: see because remember, at the end of the day, a manufacturer's job is to produce parts and put them 122 00:13:44,770 --> 00:13:51,950 Kevin Mako: together. Their job is not to figure out what is best for your product or how that product's going to work in the marketplace. Obviously, there's some consideration. 123 00:13:52,510 --> 00:13:53,590 Kevin Mako: Good manufacturers have a bit 124 00:13:53,590 --> 00:14:03,130 Michael Corr: of insight in that, but it's a fraction of what your designers or yourself or your engineers are going to have in terms of insight, not only because they understand these 125 00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:12,750 Michael Corr: processes from a market perspective better, but because they've been working on this product for months, sometimes years. So it's well ingrained into the souls of your design team. 126 00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:19,570 Michael Corr: Yeah, or they've already thought through that solution. They've already evaluated why it won't work. And so your contract manufacturer will have done that research. 127 00:14:19,850 --> 00:14:27,750 Michael Corr: So there's just a couple other things to highlight, too. So I just want to emphasize how important it is to incorporate your manufacturers into your process, right? 128 00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:35,770 Michael Corr: So creating that feedback loop, creating that connectivity, that communication. But it's also important to make sure that 129 00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:45,090 Michael Corr: communication channels are there, to make it even happen. right so from my own experience you know working for a long time in chenzhen with chinese manufacturers 130 00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:54,430 Michael Corr: there's a culture there at least it has been in the past and i feel like it's changing where they feel that they own the process and they 131 00:14:54,430 --> 00:15:03,450 Michael Corr: own the scars and so if there's any problems with production that's on them to fix and they don't always share that with you and 132 00:15:03,450 --> 00:15:09,130 Michael Corr: so it creates these barriers these communication barriers right so not only do you have to set up a relationship 133 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:18,830 Michael Corr: where you can have this mutual trust saying, no, we want you to show us the issues, right? So when I was really entrenched in factories in Shenzhen, first 134 00:15:18,830 --> 00:15:26,710 Michael Corr: off, most of them had proprietary software, MES software that managed their jobs and actually captured the, you know, the first past yield and 135 00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:34,250 Michael Corr: the failed codes and all that kind of stuff. And it was very hard to get access to it, both technically as well as culturally, because they felt it was exposing their weaknesses. 136 00:15:34,290 --> 00:15:44,010 Michael Corr: Even though I constantly confirm with them that, no, I need to see these failures, like the more. you share with me, what are the fail codes, what are the most common causes 137 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:53,590 Michael Corr: for rework or failures in your tests, I can go back to the design and help make sure to improve that. It's not always on 138 00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:59,830 Michael Corr: them to fix the problem. A lot of times it's on the design team to fix those problems, right? And so, 139 00:16:00,090 --> 00:16:08,830 Michael Corr: that needs to be established early on, the economy manufacturer is a relationship of trust and communication, that feedback loop, right? 140 00:16:09,070 --> 00:16:11,590 Michael Corr: Because otherwise, you're just making the problem harder. 141 00:16:12,270 --> 00:16:18,970 Kevin Mako: You're adding more cost. You're not really improving the process overall. And so whether it's a social 142 00:16:18,970 --> 00:16:26,090 Kevin Mako: contract or there's actually a technical integration where your CAD software, your PLM software is 143 00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:34,370 Kevin Mako: connected to their MES software in more real time, it's going to constantly improve that feedback loop. That's really good advice. 144 00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:42,470 Kevin Mako: Communication is key. In all, all, of development, but particularly as you're getting into the manufacturing specking. And it's really simple. More eyes on the price, the better. 145 00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:45,570 Kevin Mako: You've got a lot of smart designers and engineers building your product. 146 00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:53,210 Kevin Mako: Have them closely knit with the manufacturer because some of the problems they may not be able to help with. Other ones, they may have surprising insight to. 147 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,650 Kevin Mako: And in both directions, that's what you talked about earlier, having the manufacturers 148 00:16:56,650 --> 00:17:03,230 Kevin Mako: weigh in on some late stage development ideation, possibly even some earlier stage development ideation, subsequently going the other direction. 149 00:17:03,310 --> 00:17:10,010 Kevin Mako: When it's in production, making sure that your design team has some insight and help into manufacturing. The other thing you have to keep in mind as well, especially if you're 150 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:13,830 Kevin Mako: working with a design firm or working with a larger design team. You have a lot of industrial 151 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:22,370 Kevin Mako: designers, mechanical engineers, electronic engineers, firmware designers, you name it, that have a tremendous amount of experience in a variety of manufacturing processes 152 00:17:22,370 --> 00:17:29,470 Kevin Mako: on a variety of different products. You may actually be the manufacturing expert for that manufacturing problem that comes 153 00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:34,190 Kevin Mako: up, even if you're on the industrial design team as an example. And it's very important that you make 154 00:17:34,190 --> 00:17:43,850 Michael Corr: sure that that communication is there so that those nuggets of information that outside the box thinking, the alternative thinking on a certain problem or solution, is there 155 00:17:43,850 --> 00:17:52,890 Michael Corr: being presented and open between the teams. And I know, Michael, you talk a lot about this transparency in the process. That's what we're talking about here. 156 00:17:53,230 --> 00:18:00,170 Michael Corr: Just explain really what that means when you talk about transparency in the DFM process between all these different stakeholders. 157 00:18:00,990 --> 00:18:10,870 Michael Corr: Yeah. Well, so to elaborate an earlier comment, it's not just getting those reports, right? The first past the yield reports or the fail code reports or exactly what the steps were 158 00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:17,210 Michael Corr: for manufacturing or product, but it's making sure you get them in a timely and exhaustive manner. Also, from my experience, 159 00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:26,970 Michael Corr: when I did finally get to a point where the contract manufacturers felt comfortable sharing their reports with me, it was often after the production run was completed. 160 00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:35,190 Michael Corr: And so along with however many units I ordered and was shipped overseas back to the US, I get a printed on paper 161 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:45,010 Michael Corr: report the results of all the tests of each of the units. And so while it was helpful, it wasn't efficient. I had to manually comb through it, but also because of the time 162 00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:52,170 Michael Corr: lapse, I had already started working on the designs for the next production. And so you kind of get what's called out of phase. 163 00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:58,850 Michael Corr: And so if the feedback comes back too late from production run one, not enough time to actually impact 164 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:08,210 Michael Corr: production run two, it would only be able to take effect until production run three. And so it's not just getting the information at all, but getting in a timely and 165 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:17,810 Michael Corr: exhaustive and preferably digital manner. So you can take corrective action much sooner. And depending on your relationship with your supplier, perhaps even in real time, right? 166 00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:23,410 Kevin Mako: And so that's what I was also referring to earlier when I said things are changing. It has been a while since I've actually been on 167 00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:29,290 Kevin Mako: shop four because, as you noted, I'm now running a company that actually provides software that improves transparency, right? 168 00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:33,830 Kevin Mako: I recognize this problem and how prevalent was in the industry and wanted to do something about it. 169 00:19:33,890 --> 00:19:42,770 Michael Corr: And so that's what Dura Labs is all about, is really promoting transparency and removing the friction to even make these communication channels exist and connect 170 00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:46,790 Michael Corr: between all the different players. Let's talk a bit more about that and how that actually 171 00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:51,370 Michael Corr: works. The Dural platform, essentially, you're trying to get to that real-time information, 172 00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:57,670 Michael Corr: exhaustive, so you're getting all the information. But of course, the big one you also trickled in there, too, is you want to sort the information. 173 00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:06,930 Michael Corr: So how do you handle those things within the platform that you're offering? A lot of it's really based on what has evolved in the technology space. 174 00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:12,850 Michael Corr: So the hardware industry has been around for quite a while, obviously, and is using a lot 175 00:20:12,850 --> 00:20:21,310 Michael Corr: of technologies and workflows that were established in the 80s and 90s. And to be honest, it hasn't really evolved much and kind of out of scope with this conversation, 176 00:20:21,410 --> 00:20:31,310 Michael Corr: but part of it's just because the demand hasn't been there to change. But what we've seen in the last close to 10 years is a very big cultural shift on who is developing hardware. 177 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:38,610 Michael Corr: It's now engineers who fundamentally understand software design principles and agile workflows, right? 178 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:48,230 Michael Corr: Young engineers, electrical, mechanical, are now formally studying software as part of their curriculum at university. And so they fundamentally understand these. 179 00:20:48,370 --> 00:20:57,230 Michael Corr: Whereas back in my day, you know, that wasn't always the norm, which certainly wasn't required. So this new culture of engineers is looking for software tools 180 00:20:57,230 --> 00:21:03,170 Michael Corr: that help them with their hardware design that implement these software agile best practices and principles and 181 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:12,670 Michael Corr: adopt what are now commodity technologies like APIs or data models, where it is very easy to connect two different systems and have the data flow transparently 182 00:21:12,670 --> 00:21:21,850 Michael Corr: with very much effort to get the two to connect. And that's where I feel a lot of the predecessors, the technologies that have been around for so long have fallen flat. 183 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:31,530 Michael Corr: And they haven't really adopted this capability of making it seamless to, quote, plug in play between the different providers of the hardware ecosystem. 184 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:37,890 Kevin Mako: And so that's what DURL's fundamental is all about, is how do we make it so simple using APIs, 185 00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:45,410 Kevin Mako: using modern data models to make it easy for you to plug in your CAD tool into a revisioning system, 186 00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:51,510 Kevin Mako: the PLM system, to plug in your MES system or your ERP so that none of the teams 187 00:21:51,510 --> 00:22:01,010 Michael Corr: are slowed down by manual processes to transfer the data, right? So there's no more printed paperwork. There's no more emails. It's all digital. 188 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:10,730 Michael Corr: It's all exhaustive. And it's all automatic. That's great. If someone wants to learn more, what's the website they can reach you at? Yeah, our website is getduro.com. 189 00:22:11,410 --> 00:22:17,090 Michael Corr: Get duro.com. And as always, I'll put the links in the show notes below, also to your LinkedIn as well. 190 00:22:17,550 --> 00:22:21,170 Michael Corr: Michael, really appreciate your words of wisdom today on design for manufacturing. 191 00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:26,870 Narrator: again. Yeah, thank you. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast, 192 00:22:27,550 --> 00:22:34,070 Narrator: the show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market and turn it into a big success. 193 00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:43,270 Narrator: This podcast series is brought to you by Mako Design + Invent, the original and leading firm in North America to provide global caliber in 194 00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:49,570 Narrator: -to-end physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients. 195 00:22:49,570 --> 00:22:55,330 Narrator: If you're looking for product development help on your invention, head over to Mako -design.com. 196 00:22:55,510 --> 00:23:04,510 Narrator: That's M-A-K-O Design dot com for a free consultation from one of Mako-designs for design studios from coast to coast. 197 00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:06,850 Narrator: Thanks for listening and see you next time.