Welcome to Our Plant Stories, before we get stuck into this offshoot episode, I just wanted to remind you that since the beginning of this podcast journey back in November 2022, I have kept a weekly blog which you can subscribe to from the website ourplantstories.com it has charted both the highs launching the podcast, getting stories from listeners, being nominated in awards and the lows thinking I was opening a box with a proper presenter microphone only to discover a packet of cat litter and we don't have a cat. The blog goes out every Friday morning and it's a behind the scenes on the podcast and other plant related stuff. And when the podcast is off air in December and January, you will still be getting all the news and hearing about some future plans which I think are pretty exciting. One of the things I love is when I meet people who can really trace their plant passions back to childhood. They were curious and they noticed things. And that is very true of Sal.

My first realization of what propagation was was looking in next door's garden and they had bluebells and you know, thinking why have we not got bluebells in our garden? And then over the next couple of years we did have bluebells in our garden because, you know, the seed had dropped and then they started growing in our garden, you know, and it must have only been about 6 or 7.

From those early observations. Sarah Demain, also known as Sal, has gone on to become the Supervisor of the Arboretum Nursery at Kew Gardens. You may remember an episode called Gerry's Tulip Tree which was also recorded at Kew. It's a beautiful story and that is when I also met Sal. This is our chance to go behind the scenes at Kew. We drove into a very big yard with enormous piles of compost, huge greenhouses, vehicles. You can't just get around Kew with a wheelbarrow. Confession I love propagation. It feels like magic. And for context, I recorded this in April this year.

So at the moment we are in the arboretum nursery and we are in zone four. It's a weaning zone, I would say. So at the moment we have a lot of seed in this zone which has already germinated. We also have the grass collection which is seed sown grasses that are for the grass garden here at Kew Gardens. We also have the tail end of the salvia collection, so we also propagate all the salvias from the salvia border each year and they are here for approximately six months of the year. And then we have some naturally sourced material. So we have some fuchsia which is grown from seed, originates from Chile, but we got this seed from the Millennium Seed bank, so quite an important part of the collection. We also have some naturally sourced material from Georgia, which is a trip that I was lucky enough to go onto in October. So we have three species of rhododendron which are germinating at the moment.

Wow, look at that.

So really important collection.

Why are they important?

They are important because, for quite a few reasons here at Kew, precedence is given to any naturally sourced material. So these, we went out and we collected these seed and we've brought them back to grow. And they're important also because they've come from Georgia. So this fits in with our landscape succession plan. Kevin Martin, my line manager, is currently finishing up his Masters, which is based on drought resilient species. So species that we think that will survive longer, hotter summers. So they're important because the start of our change of how we're collecting and what we're going to be growing in the future at Kew Gardens.

You said the change in how you're collecting explain that to me.

We're going out and collecting more now and having more drought resilient species in. So it's not necessarily the way we're collecting, it's just the amount that we're collecting.

And how long will these tiny little seedlings take to become fully grown rhododendrons?

I would imagine, so, as you see them now, they're still in the seed tray, so the next stage will be pricking them into quite small pots, so they will get potted up maybe four or five times. So I would say that it's going to take at least two, three, four years before we actually see them out in the gardens. But you can see in the pot how many there is. We will also share that material, so we will pot them all up ourselves and then we will collaborate with other botanic institutions. At the moment, we're also going to be sharing material with Cambridge University Botanic Garden and vice versa. They've been going out on their trips, so we hope to increase the collaborations. We also have a fridge full of seed that we haven't germinated. So once we know we have the success with these plants, we will send that seed to the Millennium Seed bank and they will store it at the seed bank.

Wow. It's a long, long process.

Yes, yes. And now's the time to start. You know, we have been collecting in Georgia last autumn, the autumn before they also went to Romania, looking at species that they know already grow here. So we're looking for species right on the edge of where they naturally grow and looking at places that will have the same climate as we're predicted to have. So we're looking at going to other places as well. I've just been to Spain for a couple of weeks, so I was looking at Mediterranean species, maybe a little higher altitude, looking in Sierra de la Nieves. So higher altitude, plants that will survive a cold winter, but equally are quite drought resistant.

When you say our climate will become, how far ahead are you looking?

So at the moment, I think, me personally, I'm just a propagator, so that's my specialism. But Kevin's predicting for 50 and 90 years ahead. Wow.

How does that make you feel? And how it makes me feel?

Old, you know, But I think what's important is, you know, we need to be starting that journey now, you know, and I think Kew needs to be the forerunner in what changes we need to make. You know, I know other botanic gardens are doing similar, you know, so with more collaboration, you know, there's always hope, you know, but we just we can't miss a moment. You know, we need to be going out, if you imagine, certainly with tree species and some woody species, you know, each autumn we need to be looking out. That's somebody's going to go out and somebody's going to collect trees, you know, and grow them. You know, we, you know, if we grow a tree today, it's going to be three to five years before it's going to be out into the gardens, you know, and it's still very much a young tree growing into adolescence. It's going to be years and years before they're going to give us some canopy cover.

So are there other trees we can look at here that you're growing and propagating?

That is loads of trees here that you can see, but they're all on the other side. So Zone three is our specialized zone for growing the trees.

Now, if trees are your thing, there are lots of episodes about them in the back catalogue, from Jerry's tulip tree to three episodes about monkey puzzle trees. And we have beautiful stories about fig trees, silver birch trees, willow trees. Do take a listen. Meanwhile, Sal and I moved through the zones.

We're in what is probably my favorite zone. So this is Zone three. And this, as you can see on this side, it's a little bit darker. So on this side of the nursery we tend to grow the more woody plants and certainly the trees. So at the moment we have I would say that 90% of everything that's in this zone is naturally sourced now.

Naturally sourced. Just explain that.

So naturally sourced is material or plants that we've taken, grown from seed that has been collected from an habitat. So it's not plants that we have taken cuttings or seed from within Kew Gardens itself.

Yeah.

So this one is Abies nordmanniana

So this is the most tiny shoot, literally minute shoot just coming through. How does it make you feel when you see that tiny shoot?

I just. Well, because I've not been here for two. Two weeks. It was my first day back today, so my priority was coming in here really early to have a look what has started to come up. So, yeah, this one makes me feel really, really, really excited. So this species, Abies, was collected quite high up in Georgia, so we wasn't actually that far from the Russian border. So. So. And as you may or may not be aware, they also have bears and wolves, so that it all added to the collecting. I mean, I was just stood at the bottom of the tree. Tom from the tree gang was, like, scaled right, you know, meters and meters up, collecting the seed from these. So it makes it really exciting when you've been part of that collecting trip as well. So you've, you're seeing this beautiful seed germinating, but you're also visualizing how it was collected.

And what is the tree like? Describe the tree from which this was collected.

So the Abies is like a massive, big Christmas tree. So it's a conifer tree. And yeah, it was, I don't know, maybe 30 meters, maybe might be 20 meters. I'm not very good with heights, but yeah, yeah. So we did collect another one, A Picea, which maybe it's not up yet, but there was literally two trees together. So he was going from one to another, you know, but you think it's we just go out and we collect. But, you know, the guys were, you know, they've got all the climbing kit as well to take out, so meters and meters of rope and, you know, wherever we go, they've got to carry this around. So, yeah, I had the most important job, which can be translated into the easiest job. So I was responsible for recording, so recording what species we found, where we found it, what the elevation is, using GPS to find the coordinates, also recording any associated flora, any plants that live within that habitat.

So, you're building up an entire picture of where this tiny seedling that we're now looking at where it grew.

Yes.

How it grew, the conditions in which it grew?

Yes, yes.

And what happens now? Will you be again recording how long it takes to germinate, other information about it as it grows?

Everything. Everything. We record everything. So here at Kew, our records are really important. So as soon as we got back to Kew, then I've already got a spreadsheet. So these seeds in particular, a lot of them have to be what we call processed. So they were cleaned each evening when we were out in Georgia, that was our evening entertainment, was all sort of releasing the seed from the fruit, cleaning them up, getting them ready. So the way that we process them here is we have to mimic what their winter would be like, which is quite cold in Georgia. So we put them into cold stratification. So what this means is we either pot them up in these air pots and we put them into our cold storage, which sits at about 5 degrees. Or we put them into a plastic bag with a little bit of substrate. You can use sand, we use vermiculite. And then we write on the bag exactly what's in there. They've got their own propagation number. You can see here, they've got where they come from, the date that they were sown, it's seed. And then they go into the fridge. It sits about 2 degrees. So I would say, on average, the species stay in the fridge or in cold storage for about three months. And then, as you can see, we've taken these ones out, out of cold storage, and we're starting to get some germination coming through now.

It's the scientific side, isn't it? Is that what appeals to you as well? Is that what you love?

Yeah, I just. I like being the alchemist, I suppose, is finding what substrates are going to work or what methods do we need to do to enhance the growth of these plants? So, you know, some of these species is my first time growing this year. So, you know, behind every pot, there's quite a little bit of research that's been done. And then we record everything from germination. So on the back of our labels, we will record how many seeds are in there, how many have been required, how many seeds do we actually need - germination? So we'll record the germination and then more importantly, we record how many we pot up. So all this information we have on this label, we also have on a spreadsheet.

So there are 50 seeds in here in this pot where we can't see anything in there.

Yeah.

How many are in the one where we can actually see one coming through?

Through. Right. So 50 seeds. So you've got 50 in each one. So they're just starting to come through.

So 20 years down the road, project forward, what could this plant from Georgia be doing for us? Is that the right way to phrase that question?

Well, what we hope with these plants for the future is they're more resilient to growing in a drier climate during the summer, I would expect them to have more resilience regarding drought. So I would like to see these plants for the future mitigating against any climate change that could potentially....

Mitigate in the sense of, you know, there may be trees that we currently have that aren't going to survive.

Yes. So with our current climate or our predicted climate for the future, they predict that maybe even some of our native species might be under threat, that they're not resilient enough or they, you know, could potentially could fail. So. So we just hope that these plants are going to be growing strong and.

Be a future for us, basically.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I only see these plants until the adolescence and then. And then they go out and live in the world. So, yeah, now I've got the best job in the world.

Did you always love propagating? Does it quickly kind of make you. Did you discover this?

Yes! Yes! No. I've always had a love for it. I remember growing up, my first realisation of what propagation was was looking in next door's garden and they had bluebells and, you know, thinking, why have we not got bluebells in our garden? And then over the next couple of years, we did have bluebells in our garden because, you know, the seed dropped and then they started growing in our garden. So I suppose that was my, you know, and I must have only been about six or seven then. So, you know, I've always had an interest in plants and I've been working in horticulture for approximately 30 years. But when I started the Kew diploma here in 2016, one question they asked when we came here was, what do you want to get out of the diploma? And mine was like, the three things are propagation, propagation and propagation. So I knew what I wanted to do when I started the course. So this, I suppose this nursery here is where we do the most propagating throughout the whole of Kew. So it really is my dream job. It's what I wanted to do all along, you know. And, you know, some would say that I've realised my dream quite late in life, but for me, you know, as long as I get to do some propagating, then, you know, I'm happy as can be.

So would your message really, in a way, to all of us be have a go?

Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. You know, don't come after my job, but feel free to have a go? No, I think everybody should try it, you know, because it's like being God, isn't it? You know, it's like creating, you know, I mean, for me, I always have kind of been quite creative, but this is just yeah, there's just nothing better than seed sowing or doing cuttings and seeing those first roots, you know, so, yeah, yeah, everybody should have a go.

There's a joy to just seeing a seed emerge, isn't it? It's one of my favorite parts, but when I think of that seed, and I will now think of you with the bears that could have been circling nearby.

Yeah. I wasn't bothered about the fact that we were so close to Russia. We're scared about the bears and the wolves. And you know what? I think we maybe seen some wolf poo and that was it. So I know you probably can't put that in.

That didn't worry you, though, because you were more anxious about the seeds?

Well, yes, Well, I didn't get to see any bears or wolves, but then I was quite disappointed that I didn't get to see any bears or wolves...so

I think it's probably quite a good thing, actually, to be honest with you. The joy of making this podcast is meeting people like Sal who have a real passion for their work, their plants. And there are over 60 episodes of our Plant Stories available to listen to featuring such people. Our Plant Stories is an independent production presented and produced by me, Sally Flatman.