Hello everybody and welcome to the vP Life Podcast brought to you by vitalityPRO.

My name's Rob and I'll be your host on today's episode.

Today we're joined by Tony Pemberton.

Tony, who owns and operates Epic Genetics, is a qualified epigenetics coach and

content creator based in the south of England, who made the transition from

the engineering world to the functional health space several years back when he

realized that if he wanted to solve his own health challenges, then he would

have to do so without relying on doctors and the medical system in general.

During our discussion, Tony and I talk about what epigenetics actually

are, the different types of epigenetic tests that are currently on the market,

and how they're actually not just the fluff tests I thought they once were.

We end off with Tony's thoughts on the mTOR blocker rapamycin

and the various peptides he uses as part of his own protocols.

As usual, we get through a lot during today's episode, so be sure

to check out the show notes and transcripts should you need them.

Then finally, our little podcast is slowly gaining traction, and we'd

love it if you could leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts.

This will help us to grow, reach more people, and allow

us to host future guests.

And with that, on with the show.

Good morning, Tony.

Thank you for joining us on our podcast today.

We'll be discussing a lot, I know, but would you just like to quickly

introduce yourself, uh, who you are, what you do and all that good stuff?

Uh, yeah.

So, uh, my name is Tony Pemberton.

I'm the founder of Epic Genetics.

So my company, we predominantly look at DNA, like, uh, different SNPs,

you know, areas to look at on that.

And then, uh, following on from that really, I'd like to go deep into

epigenetics, so looking at how your genes are expressing, and then also

the gut microbiome too, just looking at changes in that and certain

lifestyle factors that can affect that.

Okay, that's awesome.

Let's start with the basics.

I suppose genetics is often seen as the code or the quote unquote blueprint

that our bodies use to create.

Enzymes and proteins and the building blocks of what is essentially us,

but epigenetics are different.

Can you sort of explain at a high level what epigenetics are?

So, yeah, so epigenetics is looking at your DNA sequence

and how that is expressing.

So certain genes are methylated, you know, that means they're turned off and

then you've got ones that you definitely don't want to have them methylated,

for example, tumor suppressing genes.

And as we get older, that this is how people measure biological aging through

methylation is looking at that sequence and how that gene is expressing.

So it becomes more and more defunct, how that gene is methylated, those

certain, um, how it's encoding itself.

Cool.

Okay.

So that's pretty fascinating in and of itself.

I believe someone, I suppose, one of the key features or

traits you might say about.

Epigenetics are that they are reversible.

As you just mentioned, you sort of, your body goes through this process

of methylation and things can be methylated and turned on and turned off.

And to me, this is pretty exciting because it's, it seems to indicate

that our genetics are maybe not set in stone as we once thought they were.

Is this something you, you would agree with?

Can we sort of modulate our genetics based off this?

theory of epigenetics to help us sort of turn on and off

certain processes as we age?

Yeah, for sure.

I think, like, I mean, people throw around different figures, but around,

they say about 80 percent of your health outcomes is lifestyle related.

So, you know, related to your epigenetics, whereas 20 percent is your hardware,

you know, encoded in your, DNA, but then it breaks down even further.

When you go into something like cancer, they're, they're, they're saying it's

around 93 percent of cancer is down to lifestyle factors, not, you know, some

faulty gene that means you get cancer.

Yes, there is 7 percent estimated that is.

You know, there is genetic components of cancer 100%, but the

rest of that, that 93%, they're all factors that can be changed

through having the right lifestyle.

I suppose that is, that applies to other disease states as well,

like your neurological conditions.

I know, obviously, if you have, with regards to genetics, your, your APOE gene,

uh, depending on whether you're at what's called a three, three or three, four, or

four, four, that's going to alter your.

your propensity maybe for actually developing the condition.

Do you think that That is something that also can be modulated by these

lifestyle interventions as well?

For sure, yeah.

Because with the APOE4, I mean, when they look at tribal communities, compared

to the people on a Western diet, there is still a factor involved there,

but it's nowhere near as significant.

So there's something in the Western lifestyle.

That is, you know, affecting the way those genes are expressing.

So, and there, there's not just the APOE4 gene that relates to Alzheimer's.

There are, there's lots of other factors.

Of course.

I don't think there's any disease where it's one particular gene monogenetic.

It's, it's a, all these diseases are polygenetic.

There are, it's a lot more complicated than that.

But yeah, for sure.

Genetics do have their role.

Yeah.

Yeah, I suppose.

In my world, which is biochem, you would look at this sort of

molecular reductionism, sort of taking a complex process and reducing

it to just one single mechanism.

And we know that With outcomes data, that is, that's very rarely the case that a

disease process or a biological process is not the, just the result of a one

single mechanism in the body and, uh, people in the, in the diet space who are

very sort of troubled about their diet, I think, tend to get stuck on that as well.

People will, will pick a.

a food group or a plant toxin, and then they will sort of demonize the, that

entire sort of, well, the food category as a result and say, you cannot eat spinach

because oxalates and you're going to die when, uh, and, uh, and obviously when you

look at the outcomes data, so beyond just that mechanism, that, that plant compound

could also have so many other benefits.

Anyway, that that's, sorry, that's a tangent already.

And we've not even started.

So just moving on to testing quickly, cause I'd really like to sort of

take a deeper dive into what testing is when it comes to epigenetics in

any case, but there's a lot going on in that space at the moment.

I'm testing, I mean, and maybe it's, I suppose you, what you would call the Bryan

Johnson effect, but everybody is trying to seemingly quantify absolutely everything.

And genetics are no different.

Can you sort of tell us what epigenetics are looking at and how they're different

from more traditional genetic tests maybe?

Yeah.

So say the epigenetics is looking at certain factors.

It could be your immune system, certain immune system cells.

It can even be, some of these reports look at clinical factors, like, uh, you

know, you might see from a blood test, like, um, your fasting glucose, HbA1c.

But they're looking at, uh, epigenetic biomarker proxies of that.

And so which can give a longer trajectory and it could actually even

be more indicative of health outcomes, like longevity than the traditional

clinical factors for normal blood.

But yeah, I mean, just going down into that deeper, I mean, looking at your

epigenetics, they're, they're, they're looking at it, they're, they're,

they're comparing, I mentioned about telomeres, but, um, they're looking

at a study, how it actually affects.

Aging or health outcomes and the, now the third generation clock.

So like you're DunedinPACE that has about 60 percent relevance to, uh,

your, the health outcomes of yourself, whereas telomeres, which is used to

be the kind of gold standard people would rave on about, it's only about 2.

8%.

So it's not insignificant.

It doesn't, it's still important to know that.

And especially if you're telomeres.

Getting a very short, you know, bottom fifth percentile, that can

be a risk of certain cancers too.

But yeah, looking at epigenetics, if you think of the epigenetics, as I was saying,

like, it's like your software of your DNA, where your DNA is your hardware.

So, and then as you get older, that's how they measure the biological

ageing, what areas are turned off.

And yeah, going, getting, getting deeper into it, they, a lot of these tests

are now looking at these epigenetic biomarker proxies and they're able

to give like organ system ages.

So that's quite a useful thing for people to know what areas of their body.

are particularly inflamed, for example, your liver, your kidneys.

But then also just other factors to these biomarker proxies for all kinds of things.

So you might find out, um, you know, for example, there's a metabolite for uridine,

which your body, you might be low in that.

So without doing that test, you might find out if you just did a biological

age, Oh, I'm aging slowly, but the same, it might be the same intervention.

If you're aging fast, the most.

kind of a well known one is calorie restriction.

So, and that's where finding out the why you're aging is that's the real kind

of, uh, interesting area at the moment.

And do you, in your experience, I mean, I'm sure you do other testing.

Are you finding that these, these proxies are sort of then potentially matching up

with the more traditional markers that are sort of found in, well, uh, I suppose

the traditional serum makeup, if, for example, you have And this is beyond my

realm of expertise, but if you've got a liver that is according to your epigenetic

test as sort of in a state of just very broadly speaking, ill health, do you find

that correlates with then direct markers of liver inflammation of that you would

raise ASTs, ALTs, et cetera, that you would find in more traditional tests?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like I say, it gives a longer term picture.

So I mean, for example, I've mentioned about fasting glucose.

If you look at the actual biomarker proxy, the number, I mean, these come out in

the American units they use, but, uh, or HbA1c, the reading is not exactly the same

because, you know, you're looking, fasting glucose is that reading for that day.

Obviously HbA1c is a longer trajectory.

But they're both, um, they're extremely relevant and I mean, they're showing

that some of these methylation patterns can be even more accurate, uh, or more

indicative to, um, to health outcomes.

But to answer your question that, uh, yeah, I think that it really does,

um, depend on what you're looking at and say, yeah, I've seen plenty of

things where it flags up, say, uh, kidney distress and then they go for

a blood test and, uh, yeah, you know, your blood urea, nitrogen is high.

That kind of thing.

So it does tally over.

So good example of myself, HbO1c was showing my epigenetic proxies that

were showing as healthy, but my fasting glucose wasn't, and it's exactly

the same as in my serum blood tests.

I've managed to correct that over time now, getting my fasting glucose down.

But yeah, these things, that's why I really like them is because you might

not test it as so frequently as just a traditional blood test, but it's But it

gives you an area if you're to test, even just say once a year, gives you an areas

to focus on during that year, all these weak points of mine, let's test them a

little bit further and focus on them.

So, so actually come to think of that's pretty cool because what these tests are

then doing is they're, they're removing the obstacle, which, what, which is fairly

common in traditional blood tests, which is that you're only seeing that particular

mark at a certain point in time.

. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that with these

epigenetic tests, you can sort of almost look at them over the course of a, of

an, uh, well, a predetermined time period and look at the health of the organ

or the system in, in, in its entirety, opposed to just that one moment in time,

as you would with a blood spot test.

Blood test.

Is that correct?

Exactly.

And then another good one is um, C reactive protein, you know, uh, whether

it's high sensitivity or not, it's, it can, that can fluctuate a lot.

And whereas when you're looking at the methylation patterns of that,

it gives a much more stable reading.

I think it's like 6.

4 fold more indicative of chronic inflammation than just your

traditional C reactive protein.

And in other words, IL 6 as well.

That's another good one that the report looks at.

Okay, I'm definitely going to have to sort of take back some of my

preconceived notions about these tests and do a bit more research.

I think if we could just go through two terms quickly, because I think these

come up a lot and people, I mean, I'm asked them, uh, on a fairly frequent

basis, what they mean, but the difference between biological and chronological

age, could you sort of briefly sort of help us break down what those are and

then again, what a genetic test may be, may be measuring in terms of these ages.

Okay.

So yeah, chronological age.

Okay.

Obviously the, the date that you're born and how old you are, and it's, it's not

a bad indicator of like, um, mortality.

It's about 75 percent accurate of

death say within the next 10 years, whereas it depends on, there's

obviously a lot of different biological clocks out there and

they all have different algorithms.

But the main thing is having one that's validated and has, you know,

50 years worth of biobank data to find out what happens to these patients.

their clinical outcomes.

But, uh, yeah, I mean, a good example is the OMIC clock,

which is 92 percent accurate of death within the next 10 years.

That's a great one for predicting mortality and looking at morbid.

It doesn't, like I said, it's a relative risk.

So that's why I urge people rather than it's better to find out when

you're say 30 or 40, rather than 60 or 70, when if you've got.

an age that's older and it's predicting your chance of death

is say 50 percent above average.

If it's 50 percent above average of a 30 year old, it's not that big of

a deal as you know, you've got a lot of time to change it when you're 60

years old, 50 percent above average is, is more relevant for sure.

But yeah, there's, there's different clocks out there for, like I mentioned

about the systems age one, the symphony age, which is again, another one

that's more predictive of health like disease outcomes rather than mortality.

And the same with the DunedinPACE, that's just looking at your trajectory

and it can change quite fast that one, even within eight weeks.

So if you were to quit smoking, you'd start to see positive changes.

Whereas the biological age clocks, they can take a long time to reverse

that, you know, that this is looking at decades worth of lifestyle choices.

So that's why I'd be very wary of, you know, there are certain clocks out

there that haven't had the validation.

I'd be quite wary of things where you, where you can just change your biological

age within a few months and you've shaved off something, some crazy number.

Or you see people, although there are a few anomalies out there, but people

that have, you know, 60 years old with a, you know, 30 year old biological age,

something like that, where it's a few like decades out, it's rare that you see double

digits, um, age reversals or acceleration.

It does happen, but it's, it's pretty rare.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was actually going to, that's a perfect segway into my next question.

I was going to ask you just that, what you think of the different

sorts of clocks in the market?

Um, you've touched on most of them, but you also get the glycan age test that

are looking at how specific sugars called glycans are affected by the environment.

Do you think those are in any way sort of accurate or do you really, are you

looking at the sort of the DunedinPACE?

Is that correct?

Clocks is for the most part as being the most accurate tool for the job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the DunedinPACE is the only third generation clock out there where it's had

a longitudinal study and big sample size.

Um, and then there's, yeah, like I mentioned a couple of

others that Geray's doing.

And there's also, um, there's, there's others out there, which, yeah, the

glycan age, I think it is good.

I mean, I speak to people in industry, it's, it's helpful, but the actual

aging number, I don't think is, you know, the number it comes out with

maybe is not the most accurate.

I think it's more of a snapshot in time of say if your body's highly inflamed

because you can have some really big numbers change, change in that glycan age.

So you see you have women that do start HRT and you can, they can see

their numbers drop by could be, you know, 15 years or even more in reality.

They're not 15 years younger, or there's an interesting article in

the times actually, where they're doing journalists, their glycan age.

And he had someone in their early thirties who was, I think it was

biological age was coming in at 70.

So he may, I don't, I don't think it was the healthiest of people, but

he certainly, you know, he doesn't look like a 70 year old I think

it's more, like I say, linked to inflammation, that kind of thing.

So it can be changed quite rapidly, but as an actual biological age

number, I'm not so convinced.

And then there's other clocks out there looking at saliva, which again, they don't

have that biobank data hasn't been stored for 50 plus years looking at outcomes.

And so.

I mean, you can generate an algorithm from these things, but whether or

not that actually translates to reality, that's a different story.

And so that often what they're having to do is use your chronological age.

to normalize the results with these, say, saliva ones.

So then that starts to take out some of the, you know, the accuracy, basically.

So you really want something that's replicatable that, you know,

within a few percent like that.

If you do two tests that day, they'll come in at basically the same age.

Whereas if they're, and that's why some of these less trained clocks

will have to use your chronological age to be able to calibrate it.

Okay.

And so you feel that these tests are now specific and sensitive enough

to just follow up on what you've just said, that if you were to

run these tests back to back, you would indeed get a similar result.

If you were to run a true to, True age diagnostic tests, uh, sort of

one after the other on the same day, you would get a similar result.

As I know, that's often a case in some of these functional medicine tests,

uh, like organic amino acids tests.

And some of these stool tests, you can run back to back tests and

see completely different results, even with the same company.

Um, do you, do you generally, have you ever seen that to be an issue or is it?

Yeah.

Not really anymore.

No.

I mean, looking at the studies, I think, say with the DunedinPACE,

it comes, it falls within that 4 percent threshold that day.

And then if you look at a serum blood test for certain biomarkers,

they generally fall within that same kind of threshold, like 4%.

Okay.

So they are really getting to the point where they are, um,

able to create data that is both accurate and can be replicated.

Yeah.

I

was just going to say, I mean, especially with that omic clock, because it's looking

at so many different biomarkers, same in the symphony age too, but yeah, you don't,

um, that omic clock, you don't see huge where someone does a test five months, six

months, four months, even more like, um, like in between, you don't see these huge

numbers going like things jumping around that starts to make you think, well, wait

a minute, how, how sensitive is this test?

When you see.

Either all these 36 bar markers or you're overall age, where you

see these massive changes, then you start to start questioning

how, how accurate is this data?

But yeah, with that, you don't see that happening.

It's very, very like, it's a slow course thing, changing these numbers.

Yeah, a lot of your, I'd like to sort of maybe tack on to a bit about your

practice and how you work with people.

A lot of your content also is about longevity.

And I suppose I'd like to find out what tools you're using to help people

sort of optimize themselves once they have sort of mastered the basics.

What are you using sort of in your clinical practice to, to help

people sort of dial it up to 11.

Um, yeah, so certainly like looking at your NAD, I mean, the most basic

thing, obviously, is just getting people metabolically healthy.

That's like the fundamental, you know, getting the blood sugars

in check, you know, insulin sensitive, lipids, looking at that.

So all of that, you know, just very, very important.

basic stuff.

But then on top of that, it's, I mean, the, the easiest

win is caloric restriction.

It's another basic thing, but then that's easier said than done.

And so it's trying to make swaps for people.

It's just trying to get the low hanging fruit to start with.

Cause as you said, you know, there's lots of supplements out there and

people respond differently to them, but caloric restrictions, like

they're the most well understood.

method of slowing down aging.

So it's just trying to find those empty calories, things that you

don't necessarily give you any, you know, they might, you know, like

drinking a, you know, pint of orange juice, you might enjoy the taste, but

then it's a lot of calories there.

So there's probably a more effective way of getting those micronutrients.

Yeah.

And a lot of sugar, which is going to obviously contribute to those AGEs

as well, which is probably something glycan age, I suppose, would pick up on.

Yeah.

And what sorts of people are you typically working with?

Are you working with a lot of people who are already in ill health or are they

sort of individuals just coming to you trying to get into that optimal state?

Um, yeah, it's more people trying to optimize.

You do get people with certain conditions, but yeah, it's

more the preventative thing.

I think as, as it becomes more well known epigenetics, I think it's going to be, you

know, you start to not necessarily get the people who are extremely health conscious.

I think I'm starting to get the more mid range people

that, uh, you know, they might.

Might do a few things for health, but there's, there's still a lot to optimize.

And that's, yeah, those kinds of clients I deal with is, you know, it's

like, it's quite easy then because there's just so many things you can

change and just see those numbers.

improve, whereas obviously the more, more healthy you are, there's

always things that anyone, you know, there's always things to improve.

And yeah, when you look at these reports, it's not never a clean sweep

of, you know, this thing, there's always going to be things that, you know,

you're just trying to kind of win at, uh, you know, the average basically.

So you might, You know, improve things, you know, 80, 90%, but

there's always going to be things.

So you just keep tweaking and tweaking, but it's like a kind of,

you know, it's a journey, isn't it?

And it's just like trying to not overwhelm people either, because, you

know, you, I could tell them to take 20 different supplements, but for

someone who's never taken a supplement , one, you're not going to know what

is necessarily working the best.

And then two, they're just more likely to get overwhelmed with it, maybe

spend too much money and then end up just going from one extreme to the

other and just quitting everything.

So it's about trying to find those easy wins because yeah, you can be overloaded

with information, but then, you know, that people are like, where do I start?

Basically.

Fair enough.

That's a very well sort of rounded approach.

If I could backtrack slightly, I'd just like to discuss intermittent fasting

relative to caloric restriction.

Up until I suppose, relatively recently, actually, There was a lot of to be

said about intermittent fasting, extending, uh, extending lifespan.

And now again, as you've very eloquently put, it seems to just ultimately

come down to chloric restriction.

Is that something you feel, sort of with your view of the literature, do

you feel that there are any benefits to intermittent fasting to sort of

increasing autophagy or is it really just about sort of cranking the

dial on getting that those calories.

as low as possible, obviously, with respect to metabolic health

and not pushing things too far.

Yeah, I think that as you just said, yeah, I think the intermittent fasting

is more about caloric restriction.

But then obviously, it's within reason, you know, you don't

want to extend things too far.

I think I think maybe the occasional fast, but doing say for fasting 20 hours

a day, you know, for months on end, I don't, I don't, I wouldn't recommend going

having such a short eating window myself.

I think maybe doing your three day fast, whatever it might be.

Well, it depends on obviously you, how much weight you carry already,

because if you're already quite slim and you do a five day fast,

it's probably not the best thing.

But, um, yeah, I think having is too short of an eating window.

I, I think you, you, in some ways you're, you're more likely to overload yourself.

And when you do break that fast, you might have a huge meal to start with

and spike the blood sugar for one.

And then that can cause oxidative stress in itself.

So I think having a, you know, like quite a sensible eating window, so

you are, you're not eating close to bed, you're not eating out of boredom,

which pushes up your calories anyway.

So you kind of, you're learning when, when you're actually hungry and when,

when you're eating just out of boredom.

boredom for a sec.

But, um, yeah, I think, I think like 10 hour eating window, maybe eight hour,

just seems to be the kind of all rounder I think that works for most people where

you're, you're not eating close to bed and then, uh, you know, having your

liver produce insulin during your sleep and then that has negative consequences.

But, but at the same time, you've got a nice eating window where, you

know, you're not maybe, you know, Overloading yourself or maybe have

it because it like I say, if you have a huge meal, you tend to bloat out,

especially when you're having proteins and starches all at the same time.

It's one thing having a smaller meal with them together when you're having that

and maybe having fruit at the same time.

You've got all these different enzymes having to break down

this food in one huge meal.

It's yeah, it can be, um, not, not the ideal.

I think

fair enough when working with clients, do you sort of ever start

them off on one specific sort of type of eating schedule or diets?

Do you, do you feel that there's much to be said about utilizing

things like carnivore or keto?

Or do you sort of prefer a more well rounded approach from the get go?

Um, yeah, so a more rounded approach.

I mean, everyone's different.

I mean, it depends on your gut microbiome as well.

Some people, and so that's why there's a bit of nuance in there.

But I mean, unless Like as a short term thing, if someone's majorly overweight

and they're trying to lose weight fast, maybe they look at the keto kind of area.

But I think, yeah, the more well rounded approach for a long term

solution, rather than trying to just dramatically lose weight, because

then people can put it back on when they go back into a normal diet.

So I think, yeah, I don't particularly think, you know, eating huge amounts

of protein is necessarily good, but then if you're not getting enough,

then you're more likely to get hungry and then eat carbohydrates.

So it's, it's trying to find that healthy balance, having

lots of fiber in there too.

Yeah.

And I suppose this is a perfect sort of segue into my next question, which

was when working with people, do you just rely on an epigenetics testing?

I mean, we've already established you haven't actually, but what,

let me rephrase that again.

What other testing are you finding that is beneficial to

working with, uh, with clients?

Are you sort of solely working with.

blood tests.

Are you sort of looking at, uh, organic amino acids, testing stool testing,

especially with regards to gut, obviously.

And again, do you find that those sorts of tests correlate well

with the epigenetic testing that we discovered discussed earlier?

Yeah.

Um, so another one is on top of the epigenetics is, yeah, you say the

gut testing and that looks at the stool, which yeah, it does correlate.

I've seen like, cause there are certain epigenetic markers, which look at

metabolites from the gut and then you can actually flare up gut inflammation

and then you look at their guts and then that actually corresponds with that.

And then, yeah, so good diving into the gut, you know, you might find foods that

You know, your, your gut particularly finds difficult breaking down and

then, so it's not so like a, or just say in general, like protein or, um,

carbohydrates or fat metabolism, you might find that those macros can, one of them

in particular might, your gut might not be the best at breaking that down, but

that doesn't mean don't eat those foods.

It's just, you have certain food scores, which those gut microbiota

actually seem to digest well so that it's just focusing more on those.

within that macro, you can just find out different food scores from that.

And it even breaks down into, um, uh, nutrients from foods, you know, like, uh,

ellagic acid, you know, from pomegranate, some people will have the right, uh,

biota to actually convert that metabolite.

Speaking of pomegranate, what are your thoughts on urolithin A?

And I would like to go back to gut testing.

Yeah.

So I think, like I said, I think only 30 percent or so, 30, people have are

able to, you know, convert the ellagic acid into urolithin A, so I think I

haven't actually tried urolithin A myself because I'm, I'm a good converter of it.

But yeah, for some people I hear they do, um, like one of my clients,

he seems to like urolithin A.

Yeah, no, it seems to sort of improve mitochondrial efficiency in people,

in some folks anyway, I think.

like everything though, it depends where their baseline is at the beginning.

Once you sort of got the basic style, then like exercise and well, just

healthy eating in general, I suppose you're going to see a less of a

return on some of these interventions, but they all do have their place.

Don't they just again, going back to the gut side of things, what

common, or consistent themes are you finding that people are, are

experiencing or issues that they are that are coming up on a regular basis?

Is there a lot of candida, a lot of just general dysbiosis and overgrowth of

certain type of bacteria or yeah, what are you finding in your patient population

that is particularly consistent?

Um, quite a lot of antibiotic damage.

So I think that's down to not necessarily taking antibiotics, but.

Antibiotics from food.

You got to remember when you buy chicken or salmon, people eat a lot of

salmon and, and that's, they, they use antibiotics to be able to put them so

close together, if they're factory farmed, that ends up getting into the meat.

So it can actually, that can show in that, um, sugar damage is another one.

That was, yeah, you got gut microbiome is particularly renowned on, you

know, eating sugar basically.

Yeah.

There's, there's a few like that, but yeah.

Antibiotic is.

Yeah.

A lot, not a lot of people realize that they eat salmon and

not realizing the amount in it.

And so that's something I used to do even myself, but yeah, now just

only wild salmon for that reason.

I'd tell people the same.

Cause it's also, if you look at the quality of the salmon itself, the fat

content is huge in the factory farm stuff.

And there's heavy metals in there too.

So then that can actually, you can see markers for oxidative stress

as well from those heavy metals.

So it's just trying to minimize your contact with, with these kind of foods.

I suppose that's quite poignant because that's just, just a change

I've had to make recently, uh, recently as well after receiving some heavy

metal tests come back and, uh, Yeah.

High aluminum and high mercury go figure, but, um,

And were you eating a lot of salmon were you?

Yeah, definitely.

Uh, well, I thought I was, I thought I was doing the right thing, but apparently not.

And that was wild caught, um, not all the time, but the majority of

it, but yeah, that was still coming back as, uh, as a high score.

Are you finding a lot of sort of heavy metals patient again in your patient

population or was that something that's not that much of an issue?

No, I'm looking more at, um.

markers of oxidative stress rather than the heavy metals.

So, but yeah, that's certainly something yeah, to keep an eye on as heavy metals.

I mean, there's a lot, there's so, there's so many avenues you

can go down with this stuff.

There'll be biomarkers you can really focus on, but yeah, I

mean, that is an important one, as you say, to look at really.

Right.

A few rapid fire questions, if you don't mind.

Let's start with NAD precursors.

What are your thoughts on those?

I think, uh, NAD precursors Yeah.

Great.

When you're younger, but as you get older, then I think it's

about fixing that salvage pathway.

And, uh, yeah, you could just take a huge dose of flushing niacin.

I've seen that one of my guests who he managed to get his NAD to the

highest level it's ever been, but then his DunedinPACE went up at the

same time, he's doing 500 milligrams of flushing niacin, so that's causing

liver issues at the same time.

So it's, it's about how you get to that high NAD level

rather than just the precursor.

Next one, rapamycin.

I know you're a fan of it.

Do you think it's something that everybody should be, should be taking,

or is it again, very case specific?

I think it, yeah, it's probably one of the most well understood

anti aging compounds out there because you're just inhibiting mTOR.

So I think it's something that's been shown in mice that even if you start

into kind of like middle age, so it's maybe equivalent of 40, 45 year old

and humans, they still get a lot of those benefits of extended lifespan.

So it's not something you need to necessarily rush into say at 30 years

old, but it's something I think it really does help across the board.

It's very, you know, it's, I don't think it's person specific per

se because yeah, you were just slowing down mTOR in general.

So it's slowing down that cellular peripheration.

in which it correlates to say calorie restriction, which

helps across the board as well.

So I think it's very much a kind of, uh, a general, uh, anti aging,

um, drug that most people can use.

Yeah.

Do you think it has other clinical use cases as well?

I mean, it's being used a lot in And still on a pulsatile manner, well,

it's starting to be used a lot in a pulsatile manner with people with certain

autoimmune conditions where they've just got this excessive immune system activity

that's oftentimes regulated by mTOR.

Have you ever used it in that sense with anyone or have you just

viewed, do you just view it as a sort of a longevity compound?

Yeah, I'm more of the camp just doing it all year round.

I mean, some people Like to, as you say, pulse it, you know, do it for

cycles and then there may be, it might be cause they're trying to like put on

muscle some certain points of the year.

Whereas I'm trying to like, I think it's just trying to get that happy medium.

But yeah, I think it's, it's one of those things you just need to keep an eye on.

You know, you don't want to affect your lymphocytes, you know, if

you take too much or too little.

So like, it's just trying to, uh, Try and find that sweet spot.

And I mean, it's not something I generally, I don't only give that

general information out on that one because my insurance doesn't

cover me for something like that.

So I just kind of, um, just say what I do basically and, um, keep

it quite, nothing too specific.

Of

course.

And do you think it affects anabolism or at least muscle retention, or was

it just the ability to build muscle that it can potentially interfere with?

Yeah.

So the ability to, to build muscle that's, that's in theory, but then if

you're doing it once a week, it's not like you're, you can't build muscle seven

days of that week, there might be points.

And that's where people get into the weeds of what day of the week do I take it?

Do I take it if I'm resting over the weekend?

Do I take my rapamycin then?

I mean, how long does it inhibit mTOR for?

And that's still kind of a little bit up in the air.

But yeah, for sure.

I think you can still definitely gain muscle on it.

I've shown that.

Yeah.

And I just do it all year round.

So it's, and I guess it's, um, some people might argue that even

the quality, you know, you, you might not be as heavy and muscular.

If you didn't take it, but then pound for pound, you, you, you know, you

might actually be stronger because you haven't got, you know, your cells haven't

proliferated to the nth degree where, so the actual, you know, your pound for

pound strength might actually be better.

Okay.

So it's a, it's working at a tissue level too.

And so let me see if I got this right.

Is it then working to sort of clear up senescent muscle cells potentially?

Yeah, so you've got muscle cells that maybe haven't actually formed right from

the outset and then there's senescent or old ones you say like senescent cells.

And then in particular, I think it's more people notice it for even fat loss,

like they might, um, they might've had some fat that has been hanging around for

the last decade around their midsection.

A lot of people reported that being on rapamycin, they haven't

really noticed much in the way of muscle loss, but they, that, that

fat area has actually gone down.

Interesting.

And you don't think that's just a reduction in systemic

inflammation potentially, or just an increase in AMPK signaling?

Uh, yeah, I'm not sure.

I think there's obviously fat cells have a higher propensity for senescence.

Maybe it's just clearing out more of them.

And then obviously the, yeah, the AMPK, you know, so you're not actually in

growth, you know, constantly basically.

So I think that may be.

You know, um, improves insulin sensitivity and then downstream that

could, you know, uh, reduce the, that those fat cells in the midsection.

All right.

Okay.

Big one.

Um, peptides.

What are your go to ones at the moment?

I know there's a lot going on with GLP 1 agonists, but there's also

a few new ones making the rounds, such as SLU PP332, which seems to

be one of these newest estrogen related receptor agonists, I think.

I mean, that's definitely an outlier, but What are your thoughts on peptides?

I know you use them personally.

Are you using them with your clients?

Yes, so I definitely use them personally, with clients I'm a bit more cautious,

you know, like I, again, I, I just give general information because they're

not really covered unless if you're talking about bioregulators, the ones

that are very short chains of amino acids, which have been, um, kind of,

uh, isolated from animal organ meat.

So they can be sold as a dietary supplement.

And then they're, they're very tissue and organ specific, the bioregulators.

So they're quite an exciting one and it tends to be very low side effects,

only being a few amino acids long.

But the ones I'm really, um, hot on the moment, I really like the epitalon.

And again, that's, it can be classified as sold as a peptide, but

can be classified as a bioregulator.

It's a, uh, it's only four amino acids long, that one.

And that seems to help with regulating melatonin production.

Um, And I've been showing it, I've shown it recently in a video

twice where I did a cycle of it.

And then you can see my sleep performance go up massively during that cycle.

And then during the second one, you know, it's like the idea is to try and try and

keep it to a normalized level and then so it gradually goes down and between cycles.

And then another one is delta sleep inducing peptides.

I've been doing them in conjunction at the same time.

And it seems to have, uh, synergistic effect.

So inducing more of that deep sleep, these areas that I'm particularly weak on.

So that's why I've been covering those ones quite a bit.

That's interesting on the DCIP.

So you've noticed an actual improvement in deep sleep score

and sleep scores with DCIP.

Is that correct?

Yeah.

So increasing the sleep scores, which obviously relates to,

um, restorative sleep as well.

And then that number has gone up too.

So yeah, it's definitely an For me, I mean, yeah, the recovery

score is still important.

We're talking about Whoop here, but yeah, I mean, other things like Auras

have a similar thing where they've got readiness and A and N, so that's

looking the recovery scores, obviously looking at heart rate variability,

various different respiratory rate, that kind of thing, resting heart

rate, but obviously the sleep score is something to really focus on too.

I find that Even can be even more indicative of how my day is if

the sleep score is high and the recovery score is, you know, like

Amber, like say 50 percent or so 60 percent is not quite in the green.

Generally, if I've had a good night's sleep, I'm generally okay,

like it might, my body might not be primed for setting a personal best.

But if I've slept well, at least I'm still somewhat recovered.

Yeah.

And just to take a quick step back, bioregulators work off the premise

that like feeds like, is that correct?

So if you have a thyroid issue, you would take a thyroid bioregulator.

Is that the general premise with bioregulators?

Exactly.

Yeah.

So they obviously, they're affecting the gene expressions.

That's touched such tiny chains of amino acids that they

can actually have an effect.

And you typically, you only do them for say 10 days, something

like that, just to reset things.

And then.

I mean, from what I'm gathering, they're not like, you know, like a magic

bullet that's gonna fix everything.

But, you know, in conjunction with lifestyle, say with, you know, if you're

taking iodine for your thyroid, that kind of thing, then it can be like a

synergistic, uh, area to kind of focus on.

Okay.

That's awesome.

Right.

How are you?

I don't want to take up too much more of your time, but how are you incorporating

all of this into your life to sort of allow you to live your best life?

I mean, we we've touched on a lot, obviously, but to, to ask the stupid

question, what are you doing on a daily basis to sort of really dial

in, dial in what you do to help you sort of function at such a high level?

It's just about trying to prioritize things, I guess, like, you know,

I do take a lot of supplements more than the average person.

I mean, certainly not as many as Bryan Johnson, but, uh, yeah, it's really,

you know, trying to have a strategy.

So it's not.

I mentioned earlier, when you get overwhelmed with these kind of

interventions that some people can just say, well, I'm just going to

quit it for a while or indefinitely.

So yeah, it's trying to find a way of making it realistic where you're trying

to cut down on steps wherever you can.

So like with the supplements, just dividing them into daily, pillboxes and

then doing that maybe like twice a day.

So you're not doing some people might do supplements three times a day, which is

just starts getting a bit overwhelming.

So just trying to spread them out.

Same with food as well.

I mean, I be a healthy, it's very hard to buy things that

are ready made that are healthy.

So it's just trying to, if you can make food from scratch, again, trying to.

make it, uh, you know, like cut steps where you can from making it from scratch,

just trying to find easy ways of putting that food together or buying food where,

for example, it's about trying to get your biodiversity up as well, because if

you start focusing on, oh, this food is amazing, then over time that can affect

your gut microbiome, the, uh, diversity of it, but also you might start building

up an intolerance to that food as well.

So it's about diversity too.

And yeah, just having good, good general life patterns where you, during the

daytime I'm quite like a, I wouldn't say a stressed person, but definitely I try

and I'm all systems go during the daytime.

And then it's just having that evening where you might try and get everything

done at the end of work, then you do a life admin, things you need to get out

of the way, and then it's just about relaxation, trying to switch off, which

is easier said than done, but for sure that that does make a huge difference.

Uh, I was noticing when I was working more hours, my speed of aging went up six

points and then since that, since I've.

Barely haven't changed very much and it dropped by like 11 points.

So yeah, the, the stress and the poor sleep that all those do make a big

difference on top of, you know, all the supplements and diet and things.

But yeah, it's just trying to, uh, keep the stress down low.

So really sort of dialing in the basics and not really worrying about

the sorts of the extra bits until you really need them, I suppose, ultimately

is the way you're looking at it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You know, not stressing about foods, like, you know, ideally I'd have all

my water is nice filtered, you know, properly filtered water, but in reality,

you're not going to be able to, you might have to at some point drink tap water.

I'm not, it's not the end of the world or foods with high in pesticides.

It's just trying to minimize the ones that are the worst.

And yeah, so if you, the bulk of your diet isn't laden with pesticides, then.

then you're pretty much there rather than overstressing about the minute details.

So it's the devil in the detail.

You know, you just don't, you know, you need, it's, it's a slow learning process

where you just learn to prioritize things, know the worst things, whether that be

microplastics, you know, just try not to have things that are heavily laden fat

that are surrounded with plastic, for example, heating up something in plastic.

A lot of people I speak to don't, don't realize that it's just.

Yeah.

Trying to, uh, keep it to a non overwhelming level.

So very much the Pareto's principle approach, the 80 20 and really sort of

not fret too much over the small stuff.

Yeah.

That's, that's, that's amazing.

Well, thank you very, very much for your time.

I really appreciate it.

No problem.

Where can people find you if they want to work with you?

Yeah.

So my company is, uh, epicgenetics.

co.

uk.

And, yeah, if you were to send, there's lots of information on there, I've got

videos comparing all the different tests.

I try not to provide too many different things because you could go down

the rabbit hole with doing, there's so many different tests out there,

but I just primarily at the DNA, epigenetics, and the gut microbiome.

That's awesome.

We'll be sure to link all of those in the show notes too.

Tony, thank you very much for your time, we'll have to do this again soon.

And yeah, I appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.