1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,280 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today we learn about the importance and strategies around product materials from the founder of a booming international product brand. 2 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:18,100 Kevin Mako: This is the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between. 3 00:00:18,260 --> 00:00:22,880 Kevin Mako: Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for hardware startups. 4 00:00:23,830 --> 00:00:27,630 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. I'm very excited to introduce Kelley Thornton to the show. 5 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:35,850 Kevin Mako: Kelley is the CEO of Tiege Hanley, a direct-to-consumer skincare product brand for men that has sold over 16 million products in more than 100 countries. 6 00:00:36,430 --> 00:00:50,910 Kevin Mako: Today, Kelley will share valuable knowledge for inventors, startups, and small manufacturers on the importance of materials selection for your new product, how to work with manufacturers on ensuring the best quality of materials and why materials are important to both your customers and your product business. 7 00:00:51,150 --> 00:00:52,450 Kevin Mako: Now, on to the episode. 8 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,180 Kevin Mako: This show is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end, 9 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,860 Kevin Mako: consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small 10 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:09,180 Kevin Mako: manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. 11 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,594 Kevin Mako: Now on to the episode. Hey, Kelley, welcome to the show. 12 00:01:13,594 --> 00:01:15,119 Kelley Thornton: Thanks for having me. 13 00:01:15,119 --> 00:01:15,500 Kevin Mako: Well, 14 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:20,560 Kevin Mako: we're looking forward today to talk about materials. And obviously, materials are a big part of any 15 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,880 Kevin Mako: product, whether it's a consumer package good or an electronics product or just a household tool. 16 00:01:26,380 --> 00:01:29,080 Kevin Mako: Everything comes down to the actual materials that. 17 00:01:29,100 --> 00:01:33,120 Kevin Mako: your products made with. Those materials composed through to make your parts and your parts 18 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:38,280 Kevin Mako: are what make the product. So materials are really important and often overlooked, especially by a newer 19 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,240 Kevin Mako: hardware startup. So today, we're going to talk about materials, why they're important, 20 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,640 Kevin Mako: and how to make sure that your manufacturing of those materials is done correctly and how to make sure 21 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Kevin Mako: that you're doing an audit and review of those materials processes and the actual output of those 22 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,340 Kevin Mako: materials into your real product itself to make sure that you're on track so your customers get 23 00:01:57,340 --> 00:01:58,480 Kevin Mako: the best possible product. 24 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,980 Kevin Mako: Before we jump into all of that, just give us a bit of a background of your 30-year history 25 00:02:03,980 --> 00:02:05,900 Kevin Mako: in the manufacturing space. 26 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:12,440 Kelley Thornton: Yeah. I mean, I started in Newark, New Jersey in the packaging business. So we were making 27 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Kelley Thornton: industrial packaging, point-and-purchase displays, retail, physical hardware retail displays. And I 28 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:24,680 Kelley Thornton: was in that space for over 20 years before I started a global in-store design and strategy 29 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,240 Kelley Thornton: company. It was really a strategy design-focused company. 30 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,940 Kelley Thornton: Out of that company, I actually did create some physical hardware, which I have some patents on, 31 00:02:34,060 --> 00:02:42,220 Kelley Thornton: that are time-stamped, weight-censored data that helps retailers and brand people understand 32 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:49,280 Kelley Thornton: the velocity of products being sold at retail off the shelves. So they can measure the performance 33 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:55,840 Kelley Thornton: of certain stimulus, such as messaging and colors and packaging and offers that are being sold 34 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Kelley Thornton: at retail. 35 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:03,860 Kelley Thornton: After that, I founded Tiege Hanley, men's skincare brand. We're a DTC Global Skin Care Brand. We 36 00:03:03,860 --> 00:03:09,215 Kelley Thornton: focus on healthy skincare routines for men, and we ship our products around the world. 37 00:03:09,215 --> 00:03:10,160 Kevin Mako: That's amazing. 38 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,460 Kevin Mako: And obviously, a major success story. You're shipping to over 100 countries every month. I think you 39 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:21,560 Kevin Mako: mentioned that you had just shipped your 16 millionth actual unit of products that is selling 40 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,480 Kevin Mako: these kits, so eight products per kit per box, over 2 million boxes sold. 41 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:26,460 Kelley Thornton: That's a huge. 42 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:32,060 Kelley Thornton: success as a CPG brand. Thank you very much. We hand delivered that box to a gentleman 43 00:03:32,060 --> 00:03:37,300 Kelley Thornton: named Blake. I went with my business partners down to Atlanta and had an opportunity to spend 44 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:41,496 Kelley Thornton: an hour with him talking about how he develops healthy habits in his life. 45 00:03:41,496 --> 00:03:43,140 Kevin Mako: That's amazing. What a story. 46 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,360 Kevin Mako: So let's dig into that because obviously materials are a big part of what makes your product great, 47 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,700 Kevin Mako: but for anybody with their physical consumer product, no matter what type of product it is, 48 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:56,460 Kevin Mako: the materials are a critical element of it. So to 49 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,120 Kevin Mako: We're talking specifically about materials and how to make sure that it's done right. Let's just 50 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Kevin Mako: talk big picture in the beginning here. What are we talking about when we talk product 51 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:11,260 Kelley Thornton: materials? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a strategic decision that needs to be made way up front 52 00:04:11,260 --> 00:04:16,880 Kelley Thornton: about your materials. I had this conversation with my business partners and our chemists, 53 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,600 Kelley Thornton: the people to develop our products that are part of our company about really what we want 54 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,460 Kelley Thornton: to be known as. Do we want to be known as innovators that use the best product? 55 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:32,560 Kelley Thornton: that are the most efficacious? Or do we just want some really good product in a bottle that 56 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:41,680 Kelley Thornton: we can be very good marketers at? We chose to have ingredients and materials as a strategic asset of our 57 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:48,320 Kelley Thornton: business. And what we mean by that is that we think that materials are critical to having very good 58 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:56,400 Kelley Thornton: products and controlling those materials all the way down to the inky number, which is the actual name of 59 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,780 Kelley Thornton: the actual component, chemical name of the component is something that was really important 60 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:05,620 Kelley Thornton: to our business. Not only because we have really good product, but we also wanted to make sure 61 00:05:05,620 --> 00:05:12,430 Kelley Thornton: that we can control consistency and control our supply. So let's talk about controlling consistency and 62 00:05:12,430 --> 00:05:20,110 Kevin Mako: supply. That obviously comes down to quality. So talk a bit about how you ensure that the quality 63 00:05:20,110 --> 00:05:26,190 Kevin Mako: of your materials is there and really what makes up quality. What is that? What does that word mean? 64 00:05:26,530 --> 00:05:32,390 Kelley Thornton: the framework of materials. Yeah, it's interesting. Early on, we were not myself and my business 65 00:05:32,390 --> 00:05:38,250 Kelley Thornton: partners were not chemists. So we do make, you know, a product that goes on your skin. We did not 66 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:43,930 Kelley Thornton: understand chemistry. Our background's more on the marketing side of the business. We brought a chemist 67 00:05:43,930 --> 00:05:51,950 Kelley Thornton: in as a business partner. And our chemist is a very technical man who really understands the 68 00:05:51,950 --> 00:05:56,510 Kelley Thornton: chemistry of ingredients and understands how ingredients and 69 00:05:56,530 --> 00:06:02,870 Kelley Thornton: chemistry goes about having delivering results. When we started shopping and what I mean by that 70 00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:07,870 Kelley Thornton: is having our products made by manufacturers, a lot of manufacturers came back to us and 71 00:06:07,870 --> 00:06:14,910 Kelley Thornton: said, you have Ferrari formulas. There's no really reason to have this level of detail and 72 00:06:14,910 --> 00:06:20,670 Kelley Thornton: this level of efficacy at these percentages of active ingredients in your formulas. No one's 73 00:06:20,670 --> 00:06:26,350 Kelley Thornton: really going to know. For us, it was really critical that we had very efficacious 74 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:30,290 Kelley Thornton: this product. As I mentioned, that was a strategic decision early on that we wanted to have 75 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:36,830 Kelley Thornton: very good product. So getting down to the actual breakdown of the ingredient and calling out 76 00:06:36,830 --> 00:06:43,890 Kelley Thornton: the ingredient at the manufacturer's level saying that we want this component produced from this vendor 77 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:49,740 Kelley Thornton: was really important to us and the way we thought about our business. That's so important to 78 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:54,640 Kevin Mako: actually put that together before you're even reaching out to the manufacturers or at least 79 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,740 Kevin Mako: at a minimum in conjunction with the manufacturers. So you can consider these things 80 00:06:58,740 --> 00:07:03,900 Kevin Mako: and ensure that the product materials that you have match the desired output that you want for 81 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:09,540 Kevin Mako: the actual product. Don't let your manufacturer decide what they think your business model is. 82 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:14,340 Kevin Mako: You are the one that decides your business model. And we talk about a lot on the show because 83 00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:17,720 Kevin Mako: quite often in product development, especially in hardware development, especially the more 84 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,540 Kevin Mako: complicated product, people want to essentially get something to a certain design level 85 00:07:22,540 --> 00:07:27,200 Kevin Mako: and then hopefully send it over to the manufacturer for them to solve a number of your problems. 86 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:30,820 Kevin Mako: Right. Well, we know that from the mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, 87 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,920 Kevin Mako: industrial design side of things. That's not what manufacturers are made for. 88 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:38,340 Kevin Mako: Manufacturers really just do three key things. They make parts to specification 89 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:43,920 Kevin Mako: on time and on budget. The better the manufacturer, the more reliable they are on those three 90 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:50,640 Kevin Mako: criteria. So what they don't do is they don't design your product. And we're not just talking 91 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,600 Kevin Mako: the physical elements here, or the actual mechanical or electronic elements, we're also 92 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,340 Kevin Mako: talking the underlying materials and the formulas that go into those materials. I thought that's 93 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:03,040 Kevin Mako: really interesting about what you guys were trying to do is you built in all of that design engineering, 94 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:07,460 Kevin Mako: understanding of what you wanted the product. So you could then approach the manufacturer and 95 00:08:07,460 --> 00:08:12,260 Kevin Mako: just say, can you do these three things? Get us a great quality product specification on time 96 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:18,820 Kelley Thornton: and on budget. Yeah, that's correct. The only overlay I would say to that is selecting materials that 97 00:08:18,820 --> 00:08:24,160 Kelley Thornton: your contract manufacturers can work with. All have specific strengths and weaknesses 98 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,198 Kelley Thornton: in terms of machinery and chemistry and things of that nature. 99 00:08:27,198 --> 00:08:29,060 Kevin Mako: So, you know, making sure that they're 100 00:08:29,060 --> 00:08:34,280 Kelley Thornton: on board with what the selection process that you made in your materials, helping them understand 101 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,320 Kelley Thornton: why you made those decisions and why that's important to your business, I think is really important. 102 00:08:39,820 --> 00:08:45,780 Kelley Thornton: And then to the extent that they could lend their expertise and making sure that things can 103 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:48,800 Kelley Thornton: be replicated in the exact way that you want it. 104 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:51,080 Kelley Thornton: is really an important part of the partnership. 105 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,740 Kelley Thornton: Most businesses call that a tech transfer. We spend hours and hours and hours in the lab 106 00:08:56,740 --> 00:09:04,260 Kelley Thornton: formulating our own ingredients and our own materials and making the product exactly how we want the 107 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:11,420 Kelley Thornton: product to be, viscosity, color, feel, smell, texture, on and on and on. And so when we get to the 108 00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:16,500 Kelley Thornton: manufacturing process, we want to make sure that we're working really hand in hand with a manufacturer 109 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:21,080 Kelley Thornton: or several manufacturers that can replicate that and we help them through the process. 110 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,360 Kevin Mako: I like that you mentioned that feedback loop too because it isn't exactly set in stone exactly 111 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,900 Kevin Mako: where that transfer takes place. So it's always helpful as you're developing your theories and your 112 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:36,300 Kevin Mako: models and your details from everything, from design, the engineering to the materials that's going 113 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:41,560 Kevin Mako: into it, et cetera. You've got your initial theories. But then, of course, they do have experience 114 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:46,480 Kevin Mako: on the production side of things. That experience can sometimes alter or change the way 115 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:51,260 Kevin Mako: that you see your product to be made. But at least you go in there with an initial 116 00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:56,920 Kevin Mako: presentation of what you want. And then when they push back on it, it's up to you to decide whether 117 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:02,080 Kevin Mako: that pushback is relevant advice or whether that pushback is for an interest that really 118 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,640 Kelley Thornton: isn't core to your brand's vision. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, taking that just one 119 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:13,760 Kelley Thornton: little step further, you know, you really need to be clear about owning IP and who owns IP and what 120 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,600 Kelley Thornton: happens when you make slight changes to things to make a manufacturer or make the manufacturer 121 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,000 Kelley Thornton: get them to the point where you're really happy with a product. So having that all laid out 122 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:31,620 Kelley Thornton: ahead of time is really critical. Unfortunately, you do need to be mindful that if your IP changes a 123 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:36,620 Kelley Thornton: little bit based on a contract manufacturer's input, then there is a question about who owns that IP. 124 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,400 Kelley Thornton: And depending on the industry, you're in, it can be gray area. So work that out off front. 125 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,740 Kevin Mako: Yeah, that's a great tip. You might as well have that in the contract. 126 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,600 Kevin Mako: contract that you own the IP, you own the rights to it. And if there's pushback on that for whatever 127 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,040 Kevin Mako: reason from the other side, then understand why that is. And it better be for a good reason. 128 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:56,940 Kevin Mako: Otherwise, if this is your product and this is your baby, you better own that IP. Let's move on and 129 00:10:56,940 --> 00:11:02,860 Kevin Mako: talk a bit about quality and what that means to your actual customer. What was the reason that you 130 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:08,480 Kevin Mako: focused on ensuring that the materials quality was to the level that it was? Like, why did you actually 131 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,060 Kevin Mako: do that as a conscious decision for your brand relating to your customer? 132 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:21,400 Kelley Thornton: We discussed early on, do we want our product to be highly efficacious or do we want to be 133 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:28,480 Kelley Thornton: organic or natural, these type of things? So it was really about very early on, it was a strategic 134 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,480 Kelley Thornton: decision about how we wanted to present ourselves as a company to our customers. What we thought 135 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:42,100 Kelley Thornton: the solution that the marketplace was looking for and where we felt we, as Tiege Hanley, a skincare 136 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:47,480 Kelley Thornton: company where we would fit into the market. What area segment of the market did we want to play in? 137 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:54,100 Kelley Thornton: We knew that we didn't want to be considered an all-natural type of brand that wasn't really, 138 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:59,440 Kelley Thornton: you know, that wasn't important to us. It wasn't the primary importance to us. The primary 139 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:05,660 Kelley Thornton: importance to us was that we wanted great results in our product. So we did focus on getting 140 00:12:05,660 --> 00:12:12,080 Kelley Thornton: to a point of having the most efficacious ingredients on the market. And that, 141 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:18,280 Kelley Thornton: was very critical early on in our development of our products. And it was because we knew for 142 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,880 Kelley Thornton: our company, we're a subscription-based company. We make a lot of our revenue on subscription. 143 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:29,840 Kelley Thornton: We knew that if our products worked very well, then that would allow us to have people continue 144 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,720 Kelley Thornton: to be involved and buy our products over time. So we really went hardcore into high quality 145 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:41,640 Kelley Thornton: ingredients, high actives at a high percentage rate in our product. And that was a very strategic 146 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,780 Kelley Thornton: decision early on. And I can hear my chemist Stephen saying to me, and this was eight, 147 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:51,500 Kelley Thornton: nine years ago, do you want your products to be natural or do you really want them to work? 148 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,480 Kelley Thornton: We can make sure we use some natural ingredients. But if you really want to make them work, we have 149 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:01,280 Kelley Thornton: to use cutting edge technology. That's great. Now, I imagine you put all this effort into making 150 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:08,000 Kelley Thornton: sure that these materials were the best of the best. Presumably, you're using that work in your 151 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,660 Kelley Thornton: marketing efforts. Yeah, that's interesting. We do talk. 152 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:18,800 Kelley Thornton: a lot about the science. We do talk a lot about hexyl peptideate and retinol and different 153 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:25,540 Kelley Thornton: versions of vitamins A, vitamin B, these type of ingredients. We talk about ingredients a lot. 154 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:31,000 Kelley Thornton: There's a certain customer that is very interested in understanding, and surprisingly, 155 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,680 Kelley Thornton: it's even geographical to some degree, understanding the ingredients, the impact in ingredients, 156 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:41,260 Kelley Thornton: the level of active ingredients, percentages, which we don't share with our customers. 157 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:46,800 Kelley Thornton: There's a segment of customers that are really interested in that. There's also a lot of 158 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,400 Kelley Thornton: customers that just care about whether or not it works. And that's all they care about. So it depends 159 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:59,680 Kelley Thornton: on the type of customer and how deep they go. Today's American consumer isn't in the same level 160 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:05,360 Kelley Thornton: yet. We're getting there in terms of concerned about what you put on your skin, what you put in 161 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:11,360 Kelley Thornton: your body as, like, for instance, the European customers. We go through much more rigorous 162 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:17,600 Kelley Thornton: consumer product safety testing, compatibility, stability, RIPT, which is a rapid patch test 163 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:24,440 Kelley Thornton: on skin to make sure that we're compliant globally. Our global compliant requirements are much more 164 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Kelley Thornton: stringent than our U.S. today. But those are things that are very, very important that we are 165 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,722 Kelley Thornton: constantly looking at in our business. 166 00:14:31,722 --> 00:14:35,320 Kevin Mako: That's great. I mean, that's amazing that you see this from a 167 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:41,120 Kevin Mako: worldwide perspective, but know that typically on a global scale, people are getting more interested 168 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,960 Kevin Mako: in the quality of their products. And it's not just the function. It may go deeper into, 169 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:49,920 Kevin Mako: well, how is it actually made in order to satisfy that function. But no matter what way, 170 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,860 Kevin Mako: you look at it, the quality of materials is better than almost certainly the quality of the output 171 00:14:54,860 --> 00:14:59,300 Kevin Mako: or the desired result is going to be better of the product itself. So all these things kind of go 172 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:03,400 Kevin Mako: hand in hand, really pushing the quality brand. One of the things we talk about a lot on the show is 173 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,320 Kevin Mako: especially as a new hardware startup, you're creating something proprietary, something innovative, 174 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,900 Kevin Mako: something special. Typically, you're designing it as a newly 175 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:15,840 Kevin Mako: designed product because you're developing it recently. So it's modern, it's sexy. One of those 176 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:22,720 Kevin Mako: themes that is also very prevalent is quality. So when people see a new brand, they want to understand 177 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,580 Kevin Mako: the product that has been created for them is world class in terms of the quality that they're 178 00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:34,300 Kevin Mako: expecting from a new proprietary special project. So if you're looking at your kind of cost 179 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:38,820 Kevin Mako: benefit analysis, especially as a new product brand, you're always better to push more towards 180 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:43,420 Kevin Mako: quality and less towards cost savings, especially in the beginning until you, you know, 181 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,180 Kevin Mako: hit that critical mass where you can really start making very sound decisions on if it's worth 182 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:53,760 Kevin Mako: it to sacrifice quality in order to lower the cost. And typically the answer is no, especially for an 183 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,800 Kevin Mako: emerging brand. It's all about your brand value and it's a lot easier to be quality and bring your brand down 184 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,940 Kevin Mako: than to start with a low quality product, get that reputation, and then try and increase the quality 185 00:16:03,940 --> 00:16:08,720 Kelley Thornton: at a later date. It's very brand damage. It'll never happen that way. The latter does 186 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:14,380 Kelley Thornton: not happen. You always need to start with the highest quality ingredients, materials, processes, 187 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:21,180 Kelley Thornton: and over time, figure out how to value engineer that into, whether it's through scale, 188 00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:26,340 Kelley Thornton: whether it's through innovation and new technologies, that you can bring your cost down, 189 00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:31,540 Kelley Thornton: but still maintain the same level of quality. But one thing I will say, you know, everybody knows 190 00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:36,580 Kelley Thornton: this. If you're starting a business, you're pushing for quality and you're pushing for material costs, 191 00:16:36,580 --> 00:16:42,900 Kelley Thornton: which we do at our company that are very expensive. There needs to be a clear business case. 192 00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:49,300 Kelley Thornton: If you ask me, it should be an immediate need within your organization to have a high enough margin 193 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:56,820 Kelley Thornton: and a large enough total addressable market for that product at that price point or you're going to run 194 00:16:56,820 --> 00:17:02,740 Kelley Thornton: into trouble quickly. You need to make sure that you've got the margins to afford the quality 195 00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:08,020 Kelley Thornton: and the marketplace that's willing to pay for it that's large enough to support the growth 196 00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:13,580 Kevin Mako: of your business. Love it. I mean, that's such an important part to business, especially new products, 197 00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:19,260 Kevin Mako: new innovative products. You are doing something that is arguably better than what is out there now. 198 00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:24,960 Kevin Mako: So you should be able to charge more and you should be able to have those margins, assuming that it is 199 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,380 Kevin Mako: truly something that people want, especially the new innovative product. But if you design it to modern 200 00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:34,260 Kevin Mako: standards. You focus on quality over cost savings. You do a really good job at 201 00:17:34,260 --> 00:17:40,380 Kevin Mako: learning what the customer wants and fulfilling that need through your product. That's how brands 202 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:45,280 Kevin Mako: are built. And we're talking to Kelley right now who did this very thing and has created a large 203 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,980 Kevin Mako: product brand shipping all over the world now with this exact concept that we're talking about on the show. 204 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,160 Kevin Mako: Kelley, before I let you go, can you just give us a quick rundown of what you guys are doing at 205 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,360 Kevin Mako: Tiege Hanley as a business and where people can find out more? 206 00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:05,860 Kelley Thornton: about the product. We're thinking about routines for men and we're in this larger health 207 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:11,860 Kelley Thornton: ecosystem. You know, Kevin, everybody's talking about the importance of maintaining your health, 208 00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:17,860 Kelley Thornton: right? And that's your physical health, your mental health. And why do we want to do that? 209 00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:22,900 Kelley Thornton: And watching what we eat and watching what we sleep, getting enough sleep, going to the 210 00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:29,360 Kelley Thornton: doctors regularly. Skin care is a small part of it. So a healthy routine, you get the right number 211 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:33,820 Kelley Thornton: of sleep, you stick to a routine, you get up in the morning, you go and you work out, you get 212 00:18:33,820 --> 00:18:38,720 Kelley Thornton: to work, you do the things that you want to do to make yourself the best person you can be. 213 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:44,800 Kelley Thornton: We play a very small part. We're helping men in the morning at night, wash their face and 214 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:50,760 Kelley Thornton: use skincare products, which we've just talked about extensively, it lead to great results. Your 215 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,720 Kelley Thornton: skin looks good, you feel good about yourself, and you're out there to kick ass. And why do you 216 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,920 Kelley Thornton: want to do that because it's important for us men. And we sell men skincare. So I know you have 217 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,320 Kelley Thornton: women listeners, but I'm speaking to our clients. It's important as men to take care of ourselves 218 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:11,560 Kelley Thornton: because we want to be the best we can be for our families, for ourselves, for our children, so that we can be 219 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Kelley Thornton: as productive as possible. Taking care of yourself and creating healthy skincare routines is the first 220 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:23,860 Kelley Thornton: place to start. Love the vision. Love the messaging as well. Where can folks go on the web to buy 221 00:19:23,860 --> 00:19:28,820 Kelley Thornton: product. Yeah, go to teach.com. Actually, we have a very good offer for your listeners. 222 00:19:28,980 --> 00:19:35,220 Kelley Thornton: If they want to go to to teach.com backslash Product Startup Podcast, there's a phenomenal, 223 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:40,380 Kelley Thornton: I think our best offer ever of the years there right now. It's teach.com backslash product startup 224 00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:47,580 Kelley Thornton: podcast. But look for me on LinkedIn. It's Kelley Thornton. I talk about business and I am very 225 00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:52,260 Kelley Thornton: very interested in helping people to the extent that I can. Got a lot of years of experience and I'm 226 00:19:52,260 --> 00:19:57,300 Kelley Thornton: and the pay it forward time of my life. So I'd really be more than happy to help out 227 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:02,820 Kelley Thornton: and answer any questions I can. Kelley, much appreciated for all your words of wisdom today. And as always, 228 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,380 Kevin Mako: I will put the links in the show notes below for anyone who wants to click through. Kelley, 229 00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:09,580 Kevin Mako: thanks again. We look forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks, Kevin. Have a good day. 230 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:14,620 Kevin Mako: Thank you. And take care. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast. 231 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:20,160 Kevin Mako: If he found some value in the show, please do us a huge favor and hit the like button and subscribe. 232 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,400 Kevin Mako: If you have any questions, guest suggestions. 233 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:29,400 Kevin Mako: or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, podcast at MakoDesign.com. 234 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,540 Kevin Mako: This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product development 235 00:20:34,540 --> 00:20:40,080 Kevin Mako: for hardware startups. And the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing 236 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,100 Kevin Mako: end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small 237 00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:51,760 Kevin Mako: manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. That's 238 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,820 Kevin Mako: m-a-o-design.com. Thanks for joining and see you again soon.