Hey, hey, hey, welcome back, Brian.

Hey, John, how was your summer?

Uh, lightning fast. I don't remember a thing about it. How about you?

Yeah, same.

What have we been doing?

I don't know. I don't know. Is it 2028 or something?

know what we haven't been doing?

what's that?

Recording a podcast. So let's get to it. Hey,

Let's get in it.

all right. So we have an interesting guest today from REI. Who's going to talk about a campaign that was created by an internal creative group. Uh, and it got me thinking, Brian, about, um, I guess we always think about how brands show up in the world. You're ready to go. All

Yeah. Yeah. Fire away.

I've got a Snap Decisions lightning round for you. Are you ready for that?

Yes. Bring it. Yeah.

So thinking about how brands show up in general through their marketing, I'm not talking necessarily about advertising. That's one way, but could be packaging could be, you know, emails you get from this brand or whatever. I'm going to give you some brands. I want you to tell me which of them do a better job of consistently making you understand. what they stand for. You with me? And maybe a little bit of why. So here we go.

All right. I'll do my best.

Coming in strong with Apple or Microsoft.

Apple, I mean, come on. I mean, Microsoft shows up better in the world than they used to, but I mean, it's not, it's not even really a competition. I still, there's so many things that Microsoft does that I just don't understand, I don't think. And, uh, I just think Apple makes it really simple to know what they, what they do and how it impacts you.

Agree. All right. How about let's go to a different category, our favorite insurance, progressive or Allstate.

Um, I'm going to go, uh, progressive.

Okay.

I just, yeah, I, I feel like they, uh, they stand out a little better and, um, it connects more.

Well, they're relentlessly consistent with Flo and that other guy. I can't stand it, but okay. All right, Brian, this is right up your alley. Technology.

Yeah.

Workday or Salesforce.

I'm going to say Salesforce mostly because you can't stand Matthew McConaughey.

I forgot about him doing that, but yeah. Okay. How about switching categories to, travel and hospitality. Airbnb or Marriott?

Airbnb. I think they're hitting it out of the park.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really nice type brand, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah,

Um, okay. Um, a band, a, uh, here's a category that spends a ton of money. Uh, I don't know if they do a good job of making anyone care, but they do spend money on marketing in every channel. Verizon Wireless or T Mobile?

yeah, I'm gonna go Verizon. T Mobile's just annoying.

Yeah. Okay. Um, and then we're going to go to, um, a more fun category to close it out here. Lite, the classic, or Mike's Hard Lemonade, the startup.

Yeah, I'm a sucker for the classic Miller Lite. To me, uh, they're kinda undefeated right now, so.

They still go back to that tastes great, less filling, don't they?

Hey man, tried and true. If it works, it works,

Can't miss it.

Yeah, I think they'll always come back to that.

Let's move on and introduce our guest, who has a lot to say about creating consumer perceptions about what a brand means. He started his career working for an ad agency as a designer and his growth over the years as an art director took him from agencies in Kansas city to New York city. Where he grew a skill set that covers pretty much every marketing channel from print to digital to TV. And he's done work that positions and promotes stuff from bread to phone service to video games to insurance and a lot of stuff in between. Jonathan Springer has supported agency clients who are large and small, including brands like Southwest Airlines, Whole Foods, the U. S. Army, AT& T, eBay, just to name a few. And then he moved to REI where he is a creative director for an in house team building ads and promotions and digital units and everything you can think of he caught our attention a couple months ago in early June with a LinkedIn post where he shared the launch of a new opt outside campaign, which is a line that's now populating pretty much everything that comes out of REI. Uh, he's also just back from a bucket list trip where he spent two weeks in Paris for the Olympics. Please welcome Jonathan Springer.

Wow. I'm blushing. Thank you.

Yeah.

Not going to be here.

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks so much for joining us. Um, love to start the conversation with that campaign. I, that really caught our eye. My brief description is it's, it opens on a young woman who's kind of going through the daily grind of life. and it resolves to her escape to the outdoors. And, you know, we liked everything about it. Uh, there's a terrific, music track behind it from a local band that Brian and I have liked for a while, Dr. Dog, and reveals a tagline of don't let life distract you from living. Jonathan, can you kind of, Talk us through that video in particular. You don't necessarily have to do it the way you pitched it internally, but explain to someone who hasn't seen that, that campaign video, explain it to us and, uh, and any other campaign extensions you want to talk.

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and first I would say, feel free to call me Springer. The opt outside campaign, it's something that we've been talking, I've been, I've been at REI for about two years now, and one of the big things that I pitched when I was interviewing was just how much I really loved the original opt outside platform when it came out, about 10 years ago. and I just loved how it was a. A brand that stood for something and took an action. and it was very simple, but yet powerful in the marketplace. And so that was just a brand that resonated with me. And I think throughout all of my agency times, it's a brand that's resonated. And so when we started thinking about how we want to reposition and what's our new brand platform for REA coming out? You know, we, we had done a few iterations and I think we always just came back to, why isn't it just opt outside? Why can't we just own that? there's something really powerful. I think that's what everybody, you know, quote unquote, everybody kind of knew us for and still does know us for. So how can we own that equity that's already built in that? Um, and you know, actually live that almost every single day. And that kind of, you know, circulated for about a year and a half. And then we finally decided, yeah, let's, let's do it. Um, this makes a lot of sense. I think the time is right. There's, you know, obviously some, some headwinds and tailwinds that we're facing in culture that actually allow that as well to happen. And so we, Went forward with it. And I think the team, you know, did an amazing job. Huge shout out to, to Sam and Matt, art director, copy and Angie. I'm bad ass designer. Um, who just really came up with the entire system and, you know, Ryan Moline, I have to mention him as well. Um, who just really brought it all together. It's just a great idea. It's a great line. It's very simple. And I think what the team did and the strategy team really helped us do is identify some, you know, cultural tension right now about how People just feel that time isn't theirs. They feel like, you know, there's a lot of autopilot going on right now. we're all kind of doing the same thing every single day, it's always a bunch of cycles and it just kind of seems like we're in the same patterns. So how do we break out of that? And how does the outdoors really play into something like that? I think the team came up with exactly what you described in the beginning. You know, someone's story of just going through those motions day in and day out. and then finally choosing opting, right? And that's what we really focused on here was the opt of that line of opt outside and having someone make a conscious decision to break free, say enough is enough and take back some of what they can, take back some control and literally just go have fun outside. so that was kind of the crux of it. you mentioned the Dr. Dog track. Um, it was actually one of like, it's a main character in this

yeah, it really is.

Uh, we have no VO, in the spot. there's no speaking roles from our talent. Um, you know, there's some, some ambient laughter and stuff like that. But the, the team again just came with this track. I, I had never heard of it before. Sorry, apologies. I'd never heard of, uh, Dr. Dog. Um, but when I heard this track, I was like, that's pretty amazing. It's pretty perfect.

Yeah. You couldn't have composed something as I do, right? Like where does the time go is literally the lyric. It's like tease up your campaign so nicely.

and it just has a great beat, a great melody. it's got a lot of energy, lots of ups and downs, a lot of drama with it, exactly what we're portraying, um, when we're shooting.

feels like life.

it just feels, it felt, it felt great. so when we were combining that with the amazing footage, getting us all of this film, all of this was shot on film, by the way, which was

Is anybody shooting on film anymore? That seems so rare.

was, that was a challenge. I think like getting the team to say, Hey, yes, you can go and, spend money on a singular track and you can spend money on an entire film shoot was a big push, I think internally, but the result is just. we love it. and you know, Kodak loves it. Kodak reposted it. Yeah, I think overall, I think just the message was very simple of, you know, don't let life distract you from living. Choose to live life outside.

Yeah, seems, seems like a perfect match to the marketing strategy. And you mentioned the, the whole idea of opt out side, or opt out, as a campaign, so just for, for our listeners, if you missed it somehow, back in 2015, REI, really created news when You did something that seemed really anti retail by closing all of your stores on Black Friday and encouraged employees and customers to skip shopping and connect with nature. So That move and the kind of the underlying brand idea there shows, I would argue, an understanding of customers and an empathy for customers that most brands don't have the guts to, to represent. how does that brand idea permeate the culture at REI? Like, is that really true to, you know, the internal culture and, you know, And do you feel a responsibility to steward that broader positioning when you create market imagery? Obviously you just did, but you know, have you always felt that?

Yeah, I mean, personally, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to work for REI and make the shift from agency to going in house and I think I got really lucky by my, my first experience being in house at REI because they actually believe that, that work life balance going from working, you know, 70, 80 hour weeks in agency land to, you know, Working 40 hours and going to fuck off outside. Like, it's amazing. It's like, what more could you ask for? and I, and I do believe we value that we have things like way days. it's like, go out and be in nature. go help your community, do your part, um, on your time, your, you know, specific way of getting outside. we still, um, close our doors every day for the past. You know, 10 years on Black Friday. It's a permanent thing now. Like we don't have to make it some big announcement. It's just who we are. It's part of our DNA. Um,

other outdoor companies have joined you, right? Like other companies also closed on Black Friday now, sort of a part of a broader movement you created. Yeah.

It's still amazing to see like the headlines of other brands and companies, like when they close on Black Friday, it's, it's still big news and it's great to think, yeah, the company I work for, they started that. We started that.

I love is like, you have this thing that, Was so successful that everything that you do is going to be measured against that. And, and you guys decided like, this is who we are, like, why are we, why are we trying to spin in other directions that will ultimately just be measured against like, this is who we are. So let's just be it. And it's kind of like, I'm sure liberating to be like, let's just really continue to dive into this. And, and it, cause it is who we are

absolutely. It feels real. And I think when you, when, as a brand, when you're lucky enough to find something that feels that real, I mean, it's just great work. It's just going to permeate from that. there's no more burden of having to compete with that because you, you're just living that. sure. You still have the pressure of like, they closed on Black Friday. Amazing idea.

somewhere. Yeah.

and so, yeah, there will always be that, um, but just the fact that we know that amazing idea started something that will continue to be amazing. And what we, we as a brand can own for quite a long time, if not forever.

And I think that that was really a peak in the craziness of black Friday. And I feel like it kind of brought everybody back to normalcy a little bit, because brands aren't afraid to like, Not go to just ridiculous lengths on, you know, the lines and waiting and getting in on, on black Friday. And, and now. now it's okay to just like, let's just let people, you know, live their life a little bit. So,

That's, you know, the balance that we as a retailer have to live with as well. Like right after Black Friday, you know, there's still holiday. There's still sales going on and we, you know, we're, are still ultimately, you know, But we'd choose on one of the busiest, days of retail to say, it's crazy. Like there's a better way to spend your time than in line for an awesome pair of shoes. I mean, unless they're really awesome. Right. Um,

talking about those shoes. so, Jonathan, it seems to us like a lot of, um, what consumers get exposed to, especially on holiday season, is some big, slick, glossy productions, a lot of times built by, you know, traditional ad agencies and big brands, but we know that a lot of brands are starting to create these in house, creative, uh, Either agencies or creative teams or, production teams or whatever. Can you talk about RAI's in house agency setup? Are you guys, is it just a creative team? Do you still use outside agencies?

Yeah, for sure. I wouldn't say that we consider ourselves an agency, but we are about the size of a small agency. We have, you know, everyone from designers, copywriters, art directors, associate creative directors, CDs. we're headed, you know, led by what's like in a traditional agency would be an ECD on the role as well. so I mean, We're staffed pretty traditionally, like an agency. I think the big difference is, is we work extremely closely with the day to day clients, quote unquote, that you would have at an agency. we're in this

So, as in, like, folks in the marketing team and,

Yeah, folks definitely on the marketing team, um, integration. We work with our merch partners. People are buying the stuff that we're selling. Um, we work with, our membership team, because again, remember REI is a co op. we're member based.

proud member right here.

That's right. Thank you. and yeah, so, I mean, there's a lot of factors that go into it and that's one of the, the big differences.

And do you use outside agencies at all?

Yeah, we have, we have some, you know, help with specific channels. especially when we do productions as well. We, we definitely use outside, agencies and vendors that,

You've worked both sides, right? You've worked for an agency and now you're working as kind of like an internal creative guy. What are the, what are the pros and the cons of those two things? What's easier? What's harder?

nothing is easy. It's work. I bounced around to a lot. think I was in maybe eight agencies before I made the move. And. What's great about agency life is I think first and foremost, it's, it's creative first. All the clients come to agencies because they're like, we don't have this type of creativity or this way of thinking internal. and we need, we need help with that. We need help to be able to tell our story. We need help to be able to get what's on this piece of paper that we have an awesome strategy for, but just out to the masses so that they care about us as a brand. It's a different way of thinking. and I think when they hire an agency, they realize that that's what they're hiring, and agencies, I feel tend to cater to that as well. the culture is a little bit different. and again, we're all working towards delivering an amazing creative product. The variety at agencies is also really amazing. You get to work on a lot of different clients, really fast, really quick. sometimes that's also a double edged sword. because you're working on a lot of clients you may not actually care about.

in terms of like learning curve was, was it just for you, was it kind of navigating the, the environment of just having to sell in different things in a different way and having to work closely with people that were maybe not as close to creative as you've always worked with?

In house is, is different, um, considerably. And I, and why I mentioned agencies are, I believe are creative first and foremost is I, you know, and this isn't a knock, um, on in house, like just in house isn't first and foremost about. It's about the bottom line of how we're beating these goals and these KPIs and these objectives and creative is a part of that, but it's not the only thing. Oh my gosh. Like terrible beat down my ego right there. When I have to say that, like creative isn't the only thing.

Headline from this.

Ooh, I mean, ooh, hyperventilating, but no, like, um,

We're here for you Springer.

um, no, it's like, you're, you're part of something much larger. Right. And you're all working towards this goal. Um, and again, creative is a part of that. Create, it's not the only solve. And I think that's, um, something that I'm still learning and I'm still adjusting to,

yeah. And, you know, forever, you know, like you said, people bring in agencies because they don't want them to have to think about that stuff. They want to think about the creative and can they think about that without the other noise? And that's kind of how it's always been. But, um, I'm sure that. You know, you're able to provide a nice cover for people that work for you and, and let them focus on, you know, being creative first as much as possible and,

yeah, that's, that's the goal. Um, I mean, but again, we're, we're All we all as creators have chosen to be inside this brand and go in house.

So, uh, switching attention a little bit to outside the organization. Are there brands out there that are creating campaigns with in house talent like your team that you admire? Anything you've noticed that you know was created in house that you think is just great?

Yeah, I would say Uber is doing a really great job right now. I used to work with, the head of, you know, that, that creative team, at an agency land, an ex, a lot of agency people have gone in house to that team and she's just built an amazing team. And I think some of the work that they did, you know, particularly around, you know, some of the Olympics and how they get their name out there almost. in different ways. Some of the celebrities that they bring on. I think that's a great brand. I even thought, you know, before,, Burger King was doing great stuff, I think, in house. They did use a lot of agencies, um, but I think their, their CMO was a big part of that. Those are the kind of couple that come to mind quickly.

Yeah, I'm amazed at some of the stuff I see coming out of Google in particular with in house creative. And sometimes it's hard to know because, you know, you're using a combination of inside and outside resources. Some campaigns are in house, some are agency. It's hard to know, but, how about other trends in marketing right now? you know, obviously, AI tools is becoming an everyday conversation. Brian and I have talked to other brands about using influencers. Any of these trends that kind of like top of mind for you and what are you thinking about them?

Yeah, I mean, AI is something we've, we've talked about a lot. I think ad nauseum internally. and it's, it's one thing that, you know, we, we represent something very natural and it's, it's not artificial. You can literally go right outside and it's real and you can touch grass. and so how does that, That tool of AI actually benefit and help us, um, in a way that doesn't feel fake or forced or, unauthentic

Does REI have, uh, policies like clear policies yet on how you will or won't use generative AI, or is that still emerging?

it, it's still emerging. you know, we're, we're, we're dabbling in it as creatives and just seeing like what it can do, but still, like, it's not, you can tell it's, it, it, it doesn't feel. It doesn't feel right for us quite yet. I'm not sure if it ever will. Like, I'm sure people said that about Photoshop. I'm sure people said that about Figma and Rain, like other tools. It's, I don't think it's the way or the, you know, I think it's going to be again, another tool that we, we shouldn't avoid. but it's, we have to figure out how, how to use it and what's the best way. how do we own stuff on there and not, not steal, artist creations. I think that's something very real that we're looking at as well. where I 20 something, you know, million member co op, like. Can that somehow become our database of source of information? If people are willing to opt into something like that, like where is our information source come from and how do we build from it as opposed to just. trusting blindly that these companies are doing it respectfully and responsibly. So yeah, it's something that we think about a lot right now, but there's nothing solidified. We're still shooting on film.

I was going to say, yeah, there's a long, it's a long walk from a film to, uh, AI created, uh, video footage clips of three seconds.

Yeah. And like, Can you talk about how you guys are using, or engaging with user generated content? I mean, I can only imagine the amount of people that are tagging you guys from the stuff they're doing, being inspired by you guys, and I'm sure you guys get inspired back.

Yeah. I mean, it's something that we're actively looking at yesterday, today, probably in an hour when I hop off of this, like it's, Becoming just member, you know, kind of obsessed, um, and just putting members at our forefront is very topical right now. how we do that, how we do that responsibly again, you know, is, is, again, Something that we have to investigate. There's campaigns and there's opportunities for us to 100 percent just give the camera to our members and say there you go, go have fun and create. we're starting to, you know, go back through some of our archive of our footage and pull forward footage that feels very UGC of the members. You know, that's, that's some of that stuff's already out in the world, and it'll continue to trickle out, in Q4 and Q1, but yeah, I think it's, it's something that we're, we're looking at right now, just how to do ethically and responsibly, so we just don't take advantage of this member group, but also, you know, utilize them as, as talent, as photographers, As the resource that they actually are.

Your brand is the, how people use it and, and, and it's the feeling that they, that they have. It's not just what you want it to be. So, um, to be able to have that as is fantastic.

Yeah. I think Brian, your, your question about user generated content is really interesting. Cause like as a co op, right? These are members. Springer, do they, do you feel like they've got, do they feel more ownership over the way REI shows up in the world? You know, because they're members or do you feel any pressure to live up to that ownership?

Yeah. I, I mean, I, again, I don't think it's pressure. I think it's something that's just sitting right in front of us that we have to, it's like opt outside. so it'll take, it'll take some time for us to figure out and hopefully by doing this more and having. That call to action and that actual nod that everything you're seeing in our work is members. And hopefully the co op, as a whole, we'll be like, yes, we have influenced our marketing and our advertising

in terms of, managing an in house team, uh, can you talk a little bit about finding creative today? You know, it's kind of a wild job market and, I'm sure it's a little overwhelming trying to find the right person just because there's so many people probably reaching out when you guys put on a job. Like, what is that like today?

again, it's a double edged sword. Um, it's, it's amazing that there's so many great creative talent, but it's also, Kind of heartbreaking and depressing that there's so many great, amazing, creative talent that just aren't, able to find a spot, a home. I just put up like a freelance writer position and we had hundreds, if not, you know, thousands of applicants within the first three or four days. And we just had to shut it down. Cause I'm like, there's no way that we don't have a solid candidate and the amount of responses that we already have received. There's just, it's impossible.

How much of that do you attribute to the fact that people aspire to work at a brand like REI? Is that a, is that a big deal or?

yeah, I mean, that, that probably 100% has, has a, a factor into it. Again, it's, it's what, it's what took me out of agencies, um, what alert, it's all, Lord, a lot of great talent that's, you know, precedes me being there as well. I mean, you find a brand that you can personally resonate with and you believe in. Um, actually does stand for what they talk about.

What advice do you give to young creatives kind of looking for an opportunity?

Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, and I think it's truly just be yourself. I mean, don't try to be something that you think you need to be for a company, or you think you need to be for this particular interview or this person or this role if you fit, it's, it's going to happen. Um, when I was interviewing for REI, they asked me, you know, how outdoorsy I am. I'm like, I have a kayak and you know, I probably go once or twice. You know, to the lake. Beyond that, I'm like, I like to sit on the couch and watch TV and work on cars and my truck and play with motorcycles. Like, I'm like, I'll mow the lawn, you know, but it's like, I do believe that, there's different ways of being outside and, you know, living that and feeling that, You know, we have certain people on our team that run marathons and whatever, like, and they, they run ultra marathons and it blows my mind when they talk about that. so it's just be who you are, be your authentic self and do great work.

So this idea of authenticity has come up a couple of times with you, you know, in terms of the REI brand, in terms of the advice you give to young creatives. How often do you bump into stuff that's, you know, percolating internally that sometimes someone's got to say, hang on, this isn't quite authentic to who we are, what we stand for. Do you bump into that once in a while, or is it so ingrained that those, those ideas don't pop up?

Now all the time.

All the time.

I think for the most part, it's, and it happens like when we're brainstorming, right? And, uh, you know, we go down the rabbit hole of, hey, that, that sounds funny. And then it's like, oh, wait, you know, like, someone will check us our marketing team, our diversity team, um, you know, a number of different points throughout the process. It's like, yo, this just doesn't, you know, This doesn't feel like I'm like, Oh, yeah. Okay. You're right.

So even though you've got that really strong, really powerful North star that's pulling everything in the right direction, you still have stuff that strays and you gotta it Correct.

Absolutely. Uh, I mean, some you're, you're human. as much as you can preach, say, Oh, yeah, I'm authentic. And actually, like, when you said that, I wasn't even thinking that I was like, man, this is great. Great therapy session. Um, just picking up on it. People make mistakes and as long as you learn and you can pivot and you know, you're adaptable, great. Like, that's fine. Um, I will.

You hear that Brian? People make mistakes.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Absolutely.

duo that kind of reminds Brian all the time that, uh, people make mistakes. That would be when I make mistakes.

Well shit happens, you know, you can't control it, it's just how you deal with it at the end of the day.

Absolutely. Can you talk about how you, um, work with your peers inside REI? Is, uh, are you working with an inside media team as well as, you know, the marketing team? Like how, how do you guys kind of work internally to, you know, bring everything together?

Yep, we have media, managers, um, they work with a, a media, a company, and yeah, we work, um, pretty closely with them to try to figure out what campaigns are designed to do what, what channels will have the best reach. and then they go and work their magic to figure out the money and how that all that works and how that can potentially come to life. And yeah, we, it's that nice compromise and that nice balance of how, and where the concept can come to life all

Yeah. I'm sure there's a little like chicken or the egg on the, You might have a different kind of cut or format or, you know,

I mean, do you fully have everything baked from the media plan of this is what we need and you go and execute or do you leave some space and some room for the concept to be able to, you know, help facilitate or dictate what some of the placements might be? Again, yeah, chicken and egg.

Do you get pretty good, uh, data on, you know, either from the media team, in terms of performance and stuff, but what about in terms of like brand metrics, you know, you mentioned this is a, this is a new brand platform, how do you know whether this is resonating other than randoms reach out to you on LinkedIn and say, well, you'd be on our podcast. How do you know that it's working?

I mean, I don't know what a better metric than that is.

All right. So you can success.

I, uh, yeah, no, we definitely have a team that is, is monitoring our, our brand tracker or our brand score. Um, and we, we look at that on the quarterly, um,

And obviously it goes beyond awareness into like specific like personality attributes you're measuring against. Is that right?

yep. I'm looking at awareness down into consideration down into sentiment, all sorts of. Data inside of an amazing PowerPoint, but they just for us feeble minded creatives. And there, we do pivot all the time, like some of our creative of, you know, this one's performing stronger than others.

And I know you've only, only been there two years, so you know, you don't have the longest track record, but do you see, have you seen a correlation between when brand metrics are kind of bumping and increasing? Does that correlate to sales increases or kind of hard to know just yet?

haven't seen that quite yet. Um, it's, it's something that we're, we're trying to get better at. What I would say, um, again, just to also demonstrate the power and the value of brand versus power and value of new shoe, new tent. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a little bit of, of, of both right now. Cause I think we need to educate internally. Um, and we also need to figure out how and why we're doing more and more brand stuff or more and more product focused stuff. But, uh, that's something in our future for sure.

I want to talk a little bit about what you've mentioned a couple of times about using film. Can you, can you give people a little bit of an understanding on, you know, making the decision to, to use film, which I think is absolutely fantastic, but how does that impact a shoot? What changes have to be made based off of making that decision? And, um, and what, what is that like for everybody?

It's scary. There's a reason why we, you know, the industry kind of went away from film and this isn't the whole reason. Like I would say, like, there's just an ease factor. It's just, you don't have to carry around canisters and canisters of film. The cameras are much smaller and easier to You know, find and utilize, um, you know, digital cameras are, um, you can mimic certain film attributes sometimes, sometimes. and digital is cheaper. and so like, why wouldn't you just use digital? Um, How did I sell and how did we sell in film of it's just gorgeous. It has a raw, a raw feeling. The grain, the texture. Um, there's just something that feels kind of memory esque, um, a bit more aspirational in my mind, not as polished. It feels again, a bit more authentic. Um, even though our commercial was very, very scripted and very produced, it's just felt real, something that you could relate to again. Maybe it's a bit dreamy. It creates an atmosphere of depth. Uh, I don't know. There's just, I, I could just go on and on. And I think the result of what we got, hopefully kind of speaks for it. I mean, we're still shooting in digital but we're starting to shoot more and more film photography as well. It is scary because you have to trust at the end of the day as well that what you just shot for two hours, you actually have on film.

So scary just to hear you say that. Yeah.

That, you know, fix it in post isn't as easy, uh, on film as it is in digital. Like you, you have to go with it. You have to cut around stuff and, you know, you have to work with it. And I think that's also kind of fun. Um, it kind of adds to the rawness, the realness of. Shit, if only she'd, ah man, how do we make it work? Um, yeah, I don't know. I think I, I will always push for film. Um, and again, huge shout out to the directors, Damian Blue and our GP, Quinn Feldman, um, cause they were just, monstrous on set. Um, the cameras that they brought, we went underwater with my camera. And so we had a complete like a hydro housing look like an atom bomb. It was dropping it into the water and its own little submarine tank. And then we put a film camera inside of a dryer. And we spun the dryer around, like, We were like actively googling on the side the melting point of film, To like, no, like, we were

What is it, by the way?

We were safe, but

know, you know, there's a, there's an air cycle, you don't need to turn the heat on those things.

No, we were like in some public laundromat and it was, there was no air. It was just like low, medium and high. They built this amazing rig and actually ran the dryer and ran it for a few times. And again, it's one of those moments where you're like, you're hoping you get it. They have some monitors and some feeds, but it's like a digital feed. And so you're like, I hope. What we're getting is, is just as beautiful. It's stressful, but I think the end result, when you see it for the first time, you're just like, so happy that that was why, you know, the decision you've made.

It's really cool to hear you talk so lovingly about, about film, you know, and now's a good time for us to cut away to, uh, our sponsor promotion, uh, Kodak has sponsored this episode. So, uh, no, it really is cause you know, the, your focus on the craft. You know, it is something that I think a lot of times I associate with what you get at spending a lot of money going to, you know, a big well staffed ad agency, the fact that you're doing it in house, the fact that you were able to sell in the extra time and budget to get the craft where it needs to be to reflect the brand. It is, it is really neat to hear and, and your enthusiasm for it is really, uh, it's palpable. So thanks for sharing that.

No, absolutely. I mean, again, REI took, you know, a chance, a risk. I don't know, maybe they didn't or, you know, hiring an agency guy. Um, I think they did that for a reason. Um, so for them to, to listen and believe and trust, um, that we're going to get an amazing product is, is great. It's a good feeling.

Speaking of that, do you get the sense that there are more creatives looking to move from agency side to in house like you've done?

Absolutely.

There's more of that now.

Yeah, I, I, the, the agency model is, is hard. I mean, it's, it's exhausting and I think that's one of the big things. COVID, COVID was a great wake up, um, because we don't have to go into the office and actually stay in the office all day. We can work from home and that gave us a, a bit more yearning to not want to have to work from home. So damn much. And I can't speak for the entire industry. And I, there's still people that love the hustle. I ultimately, sometimes I still yearn for that myself. Um, but not on a daily basis, not on a weekly basis. Um, rarely a monthly basis, but I, I think that that shift, and if you're able to find a place that has already a solid in house team, yeah, why not? Like hustle, make it, you know, you can, you can still hop around if you need to. You can still work on different brands, right? So I, I, I see that that trend just going to continue, if not exponentially more. That's my POE. That's, sorry.

for me. what, what sort of ways did you take your, your larger commercial and kind of break it down into other pieces of content? Like, how have you been able to use that That commercial to distribute that in other ways,

a good question. Um, I mean, we, we do a lot of social short, we shot a lot and that one spot was part of, I think, six other spots that we shot. Um, different times, time durations. I mean, from that 30, I think we got a 15, a 10, a six, and we've got some still assets from it. Um, the overall branding as well. Everything that we used in there was used across our entire system. And I think just the again, the locations that we shot at, we also for film, um, the video we also shot and stills. Um, so just looking at efficiencies across the board for the production itself,

You got a lot of great stuff from that campaign. What's next before we let you go? What's next for REI? What are we going to see from you guys next?

just the next chapter of that opt outside. I mean, that was our launch of just reintroducing it back into the world of saying, Hey, um, you can make a cognizant choice to break some of this autopilot. And we're just going to take it and continue to expand upon that narrative.

We look forward to seeing it unfold and, uh, and seeing your career progress. We really appreciate you joining us. It's been a great talking to you.

Thank you, Brian. Thank you, John.

Can't wait to see what's next.

Yeah. Yeah. Keep us outside.

Absolutely.

John, that was a great interview. It's always nice talking to, um, the people that are really connected into, um, into the, into the brands they worked for. And, Springer, um, you know, he's just really inspired by that brand and he's doing great things.

Yeah. So, so mellow, so chill. It's interesting how he seems to kind of almost to me reflect a little bit of that brand, right? He's all about simplicity and clarity and authenticity. And I think, you know, that's one of the things that really stands out to that, to me about that brand is, you know, just really authentic. No matter what you see, it just is really about enjoying the outside. Hmm. Great

You know, a lot of times when you, you hear about creating efficiency by bringing a lot of these, um, creative people in house. it usually means that they're gonna, you know, just be not take as many chances. And, uh, And they're really swinging for it. I love that they're using film. I love that they're, um, really digging into this, opt outside identity and really weaving it into the stories that they're telling. And, um, so I, it's a, it's a great story.

Yeah, it really is a great point about that, about that team not taking the easy path, but you know, getting outside their lane and getting outside,

Yeah. Inspiring to see that, you know, you can still, achieve what creative people want to do at an agency, you know, with, uh, with a brand. So, um, that's a good story for a lot of people to hear.

you know, probably easier for them because hearing him talk, it does seem like they have all bought in, right? They truly do enjoy what the brand stands for,. Yeah.

Absolutely.

All right. Well, speaking about caring, uh, Brian, I care very much that we got this podcast done and that we've got another one lined up.

I'm glad we still remember how to do it. Well, you know, for our listeners, stay tuned for another great episode coming up in the next couple of weeks. As always, if you enjoy the episode, make sure to share it on social. You know, tell your friends

Tell your friends. Hell, tell your enemies. We don't care. Tell anybody.

Matthew McConaughey.

Tell Matthew McConaughey. All right, man. See you later.

All right. See ya.