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Hello and welcome to beyond the Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization with within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have.

For anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insuretech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

Ketam, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing, Mark?

Glad to be here.

Thank you for inviting me and doing really well.

How have you been?

Yeah, yeah, really good, thanks.

And thanks for making some time and I've been trying to get it in for a while.

So look, I always say to everyone, look, we're going to go right back to the start of your career and go right from kind of score and stuff like that, but before we do that, be good to just get a quick intro on you current role, who you are, etc.

And then we'll go back to the start and see where we go from there.

Sure.

I'll try my best going down memory lane for as much as I can remember.

So at the minute, Ketan Motwani, COO at Arch Insurance International, which comprises the London market and the UK business for Arch, but also Australia, Bermuda and Europe.

Amazing.

Right, so let's go back to the early days, like where you what did it, what did it, what did kind of early upbringing, school, all that.

What did that look like?

So interestingly, I was quite a rebel back at school really.

And much, much to the disappointment of my teachers and my parents, I would spend more time outside the room than I would inside.

Yeah, there was a running family joke that I would do very well as a farmer, which is just out there doing some stuff.

Yeah.

So I think that that continued for a while and then before you know, you are in university.

So I studied physics and computer applications in university.

Right.

I Don't know why I chose that, other than perhaps I was watching too many Hollywood movies that focused on going to Mars and going to the moon and stuff like that.

So I enjoyed studying physics.

That drew me towards it.

And as I was going through my university years, you start thinking about life and, and where it's all headed.

I had a bit of a detour through that phase.

I took up the opportunity and I was offered a chance to join the Indian army.

Oh, wow.

So I, I, it was an intensive three year.

Were you living in India then?

I grew up in India, so I was, all my schooling was in India.

And then they offered me the opportunity to join an intensive three year army training program.

And at the end of that you're a commissioned officer in the army and that's your life.

Okay.

So I took that app as a trial because of wanting to be outdoors and spending time just climbing hills, riding horses, that sort of stuff.

I tried that for a while and then I realized I like that as an adventure, but I couldn't see that as somewhere I would like to spend a lot of my career.

Yeah.

So then I came back, finished my course at university and then again I was at a point of inflection back then.

Tech was booming in India, so everybody was gravitating towards, hey, you should do a master's in it.

Yeah.

I wasn't quite sure if that was my true calling, especially after having studied physics and computers at school.

So I worked for a little while and then I chose to do an mba and I think that was really the point of inflection because that really gave me a very broad perspective to the life.

To life, but also to the world of business and tech and customer behavior and HR and finance and lots of, lots of different things.

So I think that was, was great in a lot of ways because it really gave me that well rounded view of the world and of business.

And right after my mba, I joined a tech company is still in India at this point.

Still in India, Yeah.

So I joined a tech company.

They came on campus, offered me a job and my first role was a software engineer.

And then I was scratching my head saying I didn't want to do a master's in tech.

I went and did an mba and here I am starting as a software engineer.

So when you did the mba, did you, was that because that typically, I guess you wouldn't typically see a lot of people, they do an mba go into like consulting and strategy stuff and stuff like that rather than into software engineering.

So was that Your plan and that just happened by mistake or like what, what, what were your thoughts?

So look, I was always attracted to tech.

Yeah.

And engineering.

So I think that's something I've had through my university years.

I had a tech company who came on campus and I think the way they positioned that was.

It was a management trainee analyst program.

And then you go in for two years and you go through various functions and then you pick your path.

I think it was that context.

But then when you join a tech company, very quickly the realization is 80% of the roles in the company are software engineering based.

I wasn't sure if that was my favorite bit of the role at that point, but in hindsight it was a wonderful thing because it really gave me an opportunity to understand what working on the shop floor means, what it looks like, how code is written, how it's tested, how it all comes together, how it's deployed.

And I think there are things I learned back then that I refer to even now in my role as that that has progressed through years.

So what did.

So, so how long did you do that?

How long did you do the engineering thing for?

So I did that for.

For a year.

Yep.

And then they moved me to Manchester for a short six month insurance project.

So this was your.

Is that.

So that.

Were you in.

So it was that year in the UK or was that a year in India?

That was.

You're in India.

Yeah.

And then your first.

Then they moved me to Manchester.

Right.

What was that like coming to the uk?

That was fun.

So here I was, look still relatively fresh out of university.

How old would you have been then?

Early 20s?

I was early 20s, yes.

I think I was what, 23, 24 at that point.

So they, they parachuted me into a claims transformation project.

Right.

So this tech company I was working for, Mass tech.

Yeah.

Had a few different industry specialisms.

Insurance was one of them.

So they had a core insurance product, they had a policy billing claims product.

Yeah.

And they were going through a claims implementation with the part of Lloyd's Banking Group in Manchester.

Okay.

So I was parachuted in there to like sort a project out.

It was meant to be a six month thing.

Yeah.

And then one thing led to the other.

So I did that for I think about 12 months.

In the end, stabilized that project, got that going live in production.

I then moved to their corporate headquarters in London, which was the corporate headquarters for UK and Europe.

And then I was part of what they called the solutions and strategy team, which was again a broader role where I would spend Time with clients, look at the things that we're looking to solve for.

Yeah.

Solutions would typically encompass change.

So process change, system change.

Yeah, Change of structure.

So, so that's really, I think it was a subtle shift away from hardcore software engineering.

So that was when you kind of evolving then into being more of a kind of consultant.

So before we go to the next step, talk to a little bit about what the, what it was like kind of moving from India to the uk.

What was, what were that, were there any kind of lessons learned from that were like kind of challenges that you faced while you were doing?

I, I was my initial initially I was really happy because I wanted to just be on my own and, and do stuff on my terms and, and when you're in your early 20s, you want to conquer the world, isn't it?

You've got all these dreams and aspirations and it was great, like lots of things to learn.

New culture, new friend circle, new social circle.

I had some family friends in the uk.

Right.

But really like it was just starting to live all over again.

Yeah.

Life in India is slightly different in a lot of ways.

You have a lot of support system around you have a lot of help.

Yeah.

From family and friends, from family and just the social circle.

But here you're just thrown into the deep end and you're doing everything on your own.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So then you started to evolve into more of a kind of a true consultant, moving away from the hands on tech stuff.

So how long did you stay at Master and what did the next step after that?

Yeah, so I was, I was with Mastic for, for about six years.

I think in the end, okay, quite a while.

And I did a couple of, well, I did three different roles.

So I started off with the software engineering role.

Then I went deeper into this claims transformation role in Manchester.

Yeah.

And then the third role was part of their solutions and strategy team, which was advisory consulting in a lot of ways.

Right.

And, and I think the growing realization through that was again, I was enjoying the learning and spending more time with the clients.

I think the learning through there was ultimately I was working for a tech company and the bread and butter revenue for a tech company comes from tech.

So I wanted to solve big client problems, which would have been the right thing for the client, but not necessarily the right thing for the firm that was paying my wage.

So I think that just got me thinking on, hey, I should just look at the next step and look at aligning my excitement for solving big client problems to bringing more revenue for the firm.

And that was the transition into Deloitte where I spent nine years.

Wow, okay, so what did, and so, so was the mindset there that you wanted to go and solve kind of bigger, broader issues for clients rather than just putting in a new tech platform and focusing?

Because I, I guess you're right.

With mass tech, I guess they wanted you to be selling a tech platform and implementing that and building that and etc.

Etc.

Whereas in Deloitte it's more of a kind of a, I guess a kind of business focused, focused consulting gig.

Yeah, I think it was that and I would just supplement that with, at mass Tech, I had limited influence and levers to solve the non tech aspects of the business problem.

So even if I would lay the solution down on the table to say, hey, to really get a better claims outcome or get a quicker claim payout for the client, you're going to have to change the way the teams are structured.

You're going to have to change the process, you're going to have to put new tech in.

Yeah, but some of those levers were not available as, as a tech firm.

I could only touch the tech lever and I would think, oh, actually that's going to give limited impact.

And, and it's interesting because some of those learnings and, and way of thinking I apply even now to my role which is, hey, it has to be a holistic solution.

Yeah, tech can be an enabler.

It, it can't really be the be all and end all.

And, and again, the transition from mass tech to, to Deloitte enabled that where again, over a period of nine years I spent time solely in the insurance sector.

Okay.

Working with carriers and brokers, both in the London market, but also the PNC carriers in the UK as well as a little bit in the US and Europe.

Yeah, and that was great because I was working with like huge, like the top three big global carriers who structure their operations in a very different way, who look at platforms and tech and process and transformation in a very different way to niche nimble London market specialist players where it's all about everything is bespoke.

We cut the risk and the cloth based on the size of what the market wants to do and the clients wants to do.

So I think that was quite enriching in a lot of ways that nine years, a delight.

How did your kind of skill set and the type of kind of role that you were doing in the person, how did that evolve at the time you were at Deloitte?

Because that's obviously quite A long time there.

You went there as predominantly a tech focused person.

What did it look like kind of when you left?

So at Deloitte, I think I, I was typically, I would be spending time with a client, going in, helping with target operating model definition, and there were elements of strategy coming into play.

And then from there on I would go into designing execution roadmaps, setting up the right programs and the right structures, and in some cases executing as well.

So I would go right from strategy operating model to design and execute and again, various flavors.

So in some clients, I would go end to end.

In some clients I would only do strategy or OP model and then come out.

In some clients, I was looking at providing assurance around that life cycle where somebody else was doing the work.

I was also fortunate enough to have participated in a couple of M and A style engagements where I was doing buyer style, buyer side and seller side, due diligence, post merger integration.

So it was the whole lot.

Right.

I would, I would typically spend anywhere between like 6 months to 18 months, 2 years with a client.

So that's, that's typically how I, I would engage with clients.

By the time I left Deloitte, I was at, at any given point in time, I would have three or four concurrent engagements going on and I would have dedicated teams in each of those places.

But I was just overseeing everything and accountable for each of those solution teams that we had in place.

My sweet spot there again was transformation, whether that's pure player transformation or tech enabled transformation.

So those were the two areas that I spent a lot of time doing work on.

So it sounds like you did a real kind of variety there, and that obviously kind of gave you a really good grounding for kind of what came next.

So what, what did the next step look like and what made you, after kind of that long stint, kind of want to make a, make a move and go and do something else.

And this is where we were going through an interesting set of personal circumstances at home.

So I was having a great time at Deloitte.

Loving, loving all the client impact that I was able to make and the level of influence you carry when you work for the Big four.

And then my wife and I, we had twins.

Wow.

Yes.

You didn't have any kids before that?

No, I had no kids before that.

So coming up to.

So this was back in 2018 when, when we had the twins who are about to turn seven now.

So they've grown up quickly.

But then that was one of those moments in life when you like step back and think hey, where am I headed?

I'm having fun at Deloitte, but having limited family support structure here.

Yeah.

And look, we've got some friends, family, but they're in West London, South London.

I live in North London.

And just trying to go from one part of the other is like an hour and a half each.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

With two kids.

With two kids.

So I just needed a bit more predictability in my routine and, and my movements.

Yeah.

And that led me to just start thinking about moving into the industry.

Insurance was a natural choice because by then I'd spent 15 years in the insurance industry, spent a lot of time in the square mile, just crossing streets, going from one building to the other.

And then Aon got in touch and.

And I started having a couple of coffees with people at Aon, and I liked what I was hearing and.

And the timing felt right.

Yeah.

Because of what was going on at home with the kids.

Yeah.

So do you think had the.

I mean, having.

Having twins.

I mean, I've got.

I've got two.

Two young kids and having one at a time is.

Is hard.

I imagine having twins is even more difficult.

Difficult.

But had it not been for that, do you think you would have stayed in consulting or were you starting to get.

Get kind of to the feel that you wanted to move into industry and, and, and, and do things.

See things on the other side of the fence already?

Anyway, it's a good question, mark.

So I think I was.

I was starting to get to my final lap at Deloitte.

Yeah.

Thinking about, oh, should I continue down this track for the next 10 years plus in the advisory space, whether that's Deloitte or any other Big four advisory, Big five advisory firms.

So I was at the start of that thinking process.

I don't know where that thought process would have taken me.

But having kids meant that there was a very strong influence on how I should be thinking.

But I'm glad I did because I think I really enjoyed the move into Aeon and again spent five, just over five years at Aon, and that got me to Arch about a year ago.

So I think, again, the move was quite timely.

So obviously, the role that you've taken on now as a COO role, you moved into that role.

What did the.

Because I think that's when we first met, when you were a.

On.

But what did the evolution in the five years look like while you were there to kind of give you the footing to take on the COO role.

Yeah.

And again, I think in hindsight, when I talk about this, it feels like, oh, there have been a series of planned moves.

In reality, it wasn't that.

I think they were just crossroads that I was at various stages of my journey and I choose to take a certain path.

And they all looks like they've all joined up quite well.

Works out nicely.

So as I moved into aon, I took up the role of running strategic transformation for all their businesses in the uk.

Right.

So AON has four businesses in the UK and again, it's quite broad.

But that's the role I started with, which aligned very well with what I had done until that point, which was all transformation, heavy strategy, execution, operating models, tech.

So I was really enjoying that role.

I had an open mandate to create a new function, establish new ways of working and really get transformation to deliver outcomes and value.

Yeah.

And I spent three years to two and a half years doing that and then I was enjoying that.

And then one of my mentors at AON just tapped me on the shoulder and said, oh, where are you going?

What next for you?

And to be honest, I hadn't thought about it at that point, but through a series of conversations, the CEO role for one of the Aon businesses opened up.

Right.

And then I took that role on.

That was with the health solutions part of Aon.

Yeah.

And then that led to, in 18 months time, a different CEO role open up, which was for the Global Broking center, which is the London market wholesale specialty business, which is quite a big chunky business for a on.

So I think just one thing led to the other.

I did not plan them, I promise you, in that fashion.

But I think the transition to my first CEO role at AON was interesting because that business is like a medium sized business for a on.

It gave me an opportunity to round up my profile with the non transformation element.

So running operations like a pure London market operations, running ops, resilience, balancing, risk regulation, controls, analytics.

So I think it was a good step into that direction where the business was not that complex.

It gave me an opportunity to really dig my teeth into the COO role.

And then I started enjoying that and that led me to moving on to my second role at, well, the third role at aon, but second COO role, which is where I think I spent a lot of time back in the London market.

So it felt a bit like a homecoming in a lot of ways.

Coming back into the London market CEO.

Role, what did you find?

Because I think the transition, often lots of people that I speak to, as you can imagine, are people that are aspiring COOs.

And there's obviously different ways that you can get it.

I think the way that you did it is probably the best way in the sense because you've got some goodwill with the business and you're being kind of mentored into a role and I think it probably gives you a little bit more time and just, just a kind of softer landing.

But what, what did you find is the, that were the, the biggest kind of changes of moving from doing purely transformation into a CEO role and the kind of learnings you took from that.

So.

Good, good question Mark.

I think, couple of things.

So one, I think I still carry the big flag of transformation.

So my, that is my CEO style and you can have CEO in various flavors, as I'm sure you've observed.

But I think for me transformation is absolutely key.

I hold that close to my heart.

That's the bit that really gets me up in the morning and get going.

So I'm not stylistically suited for a run the business style CEO role.

I will only get in where, oh, everything needs to change or something is not working.

So I think that transformation thread is still a strong dominant thread.

But, but I think what I found quite interesting and challenging in a lot of ways is the core operations of a business, whether that's front office, middle office, back office, dealing with centers of excellence, which again, bigger firms have a global footprint.

So I had teams over four different countries servicing the business, dealing with supplier relationships and procurement and crafting deals in a specific way, aligning that to the needs of the business.

Looking at financials in a different way.

Yeah.

Looking at KPIs, looking at.

Is the house working firstly, where do we have tension?

When I look at core operations, where are there opportunities?

So I think some of that while I was looking at from a transformation angle, but the lens was very different.

Yeah, but in the CEO role you start to look at them in a slightly different way and then, and then I think, I think that that was one part of the learning.

The second part of the learning was just the talent model.

Right.

Coming from a background of transformation and having worked for Deloitte, I think you, you get used to a different DNA that you look for within people.

It's that change mindset and the adaptability and the agility.

Whereas for a CEO role, that's just one part of the skillset.

What you also need then is the analytical skill set and the procurement skill set and the operations and knowledge of London market and the inner workings and the way Lloyd's works and what's happening in blueprint too.

So I think that just led me to think about talent in a different way and stitching.

Stitching together the CEO office in a different way than I have historically as.

Bringing a kind of team of lots of different types of people rather than just purely transformation people which are kind of broadly they're all.

And that I can't be an expert in everything.

So I describe that as like a mile wide, but 2 inches deep.

So I know enough to be able to talk and challenge.

Yeah, but.

But really it's the breadth that I had to put my arms around completely.

Yeah.

What did.

Because I think lots of times people, you see it probably more so in.

In technology roles.

But I mean I've spoke to lots of people over the years who have kind of aspired to be a cto.

And then when they actually get there, they realize they're actually not doing so much of the technical hands on stuff that they really loved.

Probably less so for you because you obviously moved away from technology pretty quickly.

But the transformation stuff is obviously what excites you and what you enjoy doing.

And there's an element of that in operations, but it's obviously not going to be all of it.

So was there ever a point when you moved into that CRO role that it maybe thought that you kind of enjoyed doing the transformation and wanting to go back to doing that or how did you handle that transition?

I think there were.

There were initially days where, where I would get impatient because I think coming from a transformation background, you're used to just moving at a different pace.

Yeah.

I think the realization and learning for me was that's not enough for the business because the board agenda and the board outcomes need to be balanced across looking at not just transformation, but all the other aspects.

IT, operations, procurement, ops, resilience, compliance to regulation, and they're all equally important.

And I had to learn that, which meant I had to unlearn some of my transformation behavior and then relearn bits about those areas.

But also that teams behave differently and that's okay.

I would be unfair if I look for the transformation DNA in somebody who specializes in controls and governance.

Likewise, I shouldn't be looking for the controls and governance DNA in a team that specializes in transformation.

So I think again, that was just great learning going through that.

Yeah.

And then obviously the time came to move on from Aeon to go to Arch the role you're in at the moment and, and right in thinking that that's the first time you moved into the kind of Overall COO role rather than a divisional one, I guess reporting, because I guess Aon, you were reporting into a group coo.

Yeah.

So, so what, what was that?

Was that just time to, to take the, the, the, the, the next step or, or did they come knocking at an opportune time so you've got an opportunity to miss?

What, what did it, what did that look like?

I think it was more the latter because again, I was enjoying my role at Aeon.

I, I hadn't been in the role for, for that long.

I was, I was in that global broking role for 15, 18 months.

Okay, so I hadn't been in the role for that long.

So from a timing perspective, it was not ideal.

Yeah.

And there was a part of me that felt, oh, I'm leaving this like halfway.

Yeah, but, but Arch came knocking.

I met a few people at Arch and I was just refreshed by the, the enthusiasm and energy and the ambition of the business.

And it felt like the next logical step in my journey.

And moving from broking to underwriting again felt going full circle in a lot of ways because prior to joining Aon while I was at Deloitte and prior to that at Mass Tech, about 75% of the time I spent was with underwriting firms.

So that's an area where I had to just dust off some of my knowledge and experience.

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Now let's get back to today's episode.

And it'd be interesting to know like what at the moment, not necessarily just for Arch, but what keeps a COO up at night at the moment?

What are the things that are kind of the challenges and the worries that are going on in the COO's head right now.

So I smile because I've been having this conversation with some of my peer group in the market.

So I think it's.

It's interesting, give us a wider perception.

So I think it's interesting the way.

The way we look at the CEO role.

I think that there's no one stencil, by the way.

So every firm looks at CEOs in a different way.

Yeah.

And I guess it depends where you're on the journey.

Absolutely.

Depends where you're in the journey.

Depends where the firm is on their journey.

So I think the CEO role can mean, like, very different things.

But the way I like to think about the CEO role is I just go back to my days when I was studying physics.

So I think of a CEO role as a chief engineer or a chief architect of a space mission where you got to know the direction of travel and you will influence the direction of the travel based on the capability of the spacecraft.

You then need to really have deep knowledge of how each of the components of the spacecraft work.

Yeah.

How the fuel system works, how the engine works, and, oh, what if we replace the fuel system with something that's more environmentally friendly?

That might be great for the team that works on the fuel system, but what impact does it have on the engine?

And what impact does it have on the trajectory and the pace of travel?

And I see the COO really, in that chief engineer, architect style space where you, you really have a clear eye on what's the outcome, where is the business strategy, how fast do we need to go there, what markets are we playing in, where do we play, where do we win?

And then how do various components of that spacecraft come together, whether that's operations, transformation, it, analytics, AI, Big buzzword in the market at the minute.

All those things can be great in their own right.

But until that all comes together to get the spacecraft to deliver its mission, it's of no use.

And I think that's where the CEO role comes in.

Yeah, that's how I see it, anyway.

Yeah.

And so what.

What interesting.

What are the kind of your peers and stuff like that?

What are the, what are the challenges that they're seeing?

I think, I think a big challenge we see across the London market is, is around the fragmentation of data.

Yeah.

Data continues to be a big Big hot topic in the market.

Everybody's talking about data in parallel.

We've had huge tech acceleration in the last five years.

I think in my working career I haven't come across the phase of tech maturity evolution in the five years in the last five years than at any other time.

So it's been fascinating because the tech companies have evolved, the offerings are more mature.

I think we got to really pick and choose and figure out how we enable and leverage more of that to really change the core workings of an insurance company.

Now all that really relies on data.

So data and tech acceleration are the two key themes that I think a lot of CEOs are spending time thinking about and losing a little bit of sleep as well.

If I put that into a broader context, I think the market itself is at an interesting phase.

So the market is shifting in ways it has not previously shifted in previous cycles.

You had very clearly demarcated hard and soft market cycles.

What seems to be happening this time around is it's not the same for all classes and we are having micro cycles within different classes, which I think again points to a broader trend that the world we are living in is getting more uncertain, it's getting more risky.

The geopolitical landscape is very uncertain.

You've got climate change which is also bringing in more uncertainties.

You've got tech acceleration going on.

And all those things really create a perfect storm for the insurance industry.

So in a lot of ways it creates more of a need to have insurance cover some of these events we are seeing in the world and cover some of the volatility we are seeing.

But also it then puts pressure on the insurance companies to make sure the products are innovative and the way the products are served, serviced and the claims are serviced, keep up with the way the client's risks are being covered.

So I think it's creating some interesting disruption in the insurance industry which I think will make the CEO role even more prominent as we head into the next decade.

You mentioned about the data and AI piece there.

I think data has been a pretty hot topic in insurance for quite a while, but, but it certainly seems in the last kind of 6 or 12 months or so it's, it's really got like kind of moved up the agenda.

Do you think that's because now there's a realization that, that if you don't have your data state in, in good state then, then you're really not going to be able to capitalize on, on the use of AI and, and, and all kind of fast moving technologies.

And obviously the pace in which that's moving at now is, is, is like nothing we've seen into any kind of technology before.

Because certainly that seems to like.

It seemed to be certainly in my line of work that data has been a big topic for a while, but now it's really skyrocketed.

But I'm not sure whether that's in line because of the AI movement or something else.

I think there's a number of things going on which brings the data agenda to the forefront and a topic that's being discussed in boardrooms.

I think the rise of AI and the tech acceleration as I call it, is one factor.

I think the other factors for us, quite specifically in the London market is the fact that we've got significant investment going on across the market.

So Lloyds are investing in Blueprint 2 that look, we all know about.

There's millions or hundreds of millions being pumped in to modernize the market infrastructure.

Carriers, brokers, they're all waking up to the fact that there are better ways of trading as a market.

We are behind where when compared to some of the other industries, when I look at banking or investment banking, I think they've adopted data and automated trading at a much faster pace than we have as an industry.

Now there are reasons and there are lots of good reasons, but I think given the maturity of tech, I think now is the time to just change all of that.

So I think that's the second factor where we all see investment is happening across the market.

And you can only truly crack this if the market cracks it.

If we all start trading using data, there is very little value if just an underwriter or just a broker is having a slick data spine of their own.

It will only work when the market starts to talk that language.

And I think you can now see moves in that direction and I think certainly big changes and there's already some signs of success.

Do you think as well that because of the nuance and in how you, how you use data and the different ways that it can be, there's a million and one different ways that you can, models you can put in place, ways that you can set up your data and all that kind of stuff, that that's where it presents a real opportunity for competitive advantage and differentiation rather than kind of in the underwriting space where kind of largely everything's kind of done in one particular way and therefore trying to differentiate, differentiate yourself that way is a bit more difficult.

I think there's certainly lots of opportunities in using data in different ways within Underwriting?

Yeah, I think, I think there's lots of untapped data that we just don't capture in a structured format at the minute.

And if you don't capture the data, there's limited value you can put on top of it.

So I think if as a market we all had better sight of our data and trading data, some of the decision making that the carriers or the brokers do around pricing and serving the clients will start to shift in a different direction because it will be backed by hardcore analysis that data and the analytical models can provide.

So I would see a shift in the underwriter behavior by leaning more on the ability of data to support some of that analysis.

And what about the role of a COO and the kind of wider team within that remit?

Because I think like, obviously AI is, is changing the job market and already and, and, and will obviously continue to do so over the next kind of four or five years or so, probably, probably even sooner than that.

So, so how, how do you see the, the evolution of AI and insurance affecting the COO role and, and, and, and how do you think that will change for kind of you and the broader team that you look after?

Yeah, so look, I see AI as one of the tools in the repertoire of a CEO.

So I go back to my analogy of being this chief engineer of a mission that's going into space.

I would say AI is one part of the tools or the components that fit within the spacecraft.

I think for me, the value really is how AI can be embedded into shifting the direction of where the spacecraft should go and the pace at which it should go.

So, like, bring it back to life the way we do pricing across the market or the way we do underwriting.

And the pace at which we do will change if we are able to embed the right set of use cases from the AI tools into our operations and then change the operations in a way that leverages some of the data with the underwriting still making the decision.

So I think it, look, I'm a firm believer tech on its own cannot solve a problem.

You got to really just shift the entire operating model into a more digital operating model.

And that's where the true value comes in.

So from a CEO's perspective, yes, it's tool, it's an important tool.

We'll start to see more use of that.

But if we can't embed it, it'll just be a toy that people play with for a while and then it's replaced with the next tech fad.

Do you think I think tech adoption has always been an issue in insurance.

Do you think that now in the kind of boardroom conversation, there's a real willingness to kind of embrace AI, data, modern, more modern technology in a more fuller way than they have in the past?

I've certainly seen that shift over the last 20 years that I have been working in the London markets.

I think there's more of a focus and more time spent talking about the use of AI and use of tech in the boardroom now than there was 20 years ago and then there was 10 years ago.

So I think there has been a gradual shift.

It's accelerated in the last five years because of again, the tech acceleration and the way tools have matured.

But I go back to look, it's only as good as how we embed it and how we embrace some of this tooling.

I don't see a world where AI will just completely replace what we do in the London market.

I think, I think it's a tool that will be an enabler.

Yeah, yeah.

And I guess from your perspective that have.

Having a technology background, that that's, do you think that's, that's the way the CEO role goes?

Like, because there's always been lots of talk around kind of CIO versus COO and the kind of the, the merging of those two roles.

It, it sounds like in your role at the moment, although you're not, not a cio, that you've obviously got technology and data and all that mixed into it, it's not a purely kind of traditional pure ops role.

It's broader than that.

I would agree with that sentiment.

I think as we look at the next five years, next 10 years, I would see more of the CEOs being closer to tech than they were 10 years ago.

I think looking 10 years ago, you would have CEOs who would just completely lean on a different part of the organization for anything to.

With data tech, I think that's shifting and I see the direction is very clear.

I don't think you can be a successful COO without keeping your arms close to tech data because of the maturity of these tools and the ability of any of the tech data tooling to influence business outcomes.

Yeah.

And, and I guess I just wanted to, to kind of evolving on to that is just take a little bit and just try and get some snippets of advice from you.

Like, you obviously you've, you've, you've gone.

I, I always talk about not having a particular linear career, but you've actually had the the quite traditional linear career into this area.

So you dispelled the myth that I say that most people take a zigzag, but what, what I, what I wanted to get into is just a little bit of kind of advice you would have for anybody who's aspiring coos.

When you look back on the career that you had in consulting and Aon, what, what, what grounding do you think that gave you?

And, and if you were going back and kind of redesigning that for someone else or kind of mentoring someone else, like, what, what, what, what bits would you pick out, particularly as pertinent that you.

That have, that have kind of given you a good grounding for what you're doing now?

Sure.

So, firstly, I'm, I'm glad it's come across that it's all linear and a planned sequence of steps.

But no, as I, if I, if I think back on phases in my life where I was at the crossroads, it, it did not feel linear at that point.

But as it all seems, it looks to make sense.

It makes, it seems to make sense now.

So, no, I'm pleased, I'm pleased at how it's all played out.

But then I think specifically, if I go back to what would I do differently?

I would think, look, I spent significant chunk of my time in transformation.

Perhaps I would dial that down a little bit.

I think I went far too deep in transformation and I would perhaps compromise that with going deeper in one of the other areas.

And if I have to draw a more streamlined path or trajectory for somebody, I would position it like that.

I always wanted to be a transformation specialist and expert with the background in tech process change, operating models and strategy.

And it so turned out that all those things are now relevant for the market.

Like, 20 years ago, nobody was thinking about tech or AI, but if I would do it differently, I would, I would probably just diversify a little bit.

Yeah.

Earlier in my career, because you don't quite know what skill set you're going to need 20 years from now.

So the zigzag thing that I talk about is probably not a bad, not a bad piece of advice, interestingly.

Do you.

Because, Because I get exactly what you mean.

Do you think that they're actually doing.

Because obviously you've gone into a COO role and if there's a transformational aspect of it, you're going to be amazing at that.

But there would have been parts of that role that you've had to learn that you had kind of very little to no experience in had you been worked in one or two other areas of the business over the last, the five years before that, you'd have been slightly more rounded going into a CRO role.

So is that, is that kind of what you mean?

Yeah, I think.

And just to bring that to life, I would have liked to spend more time in finance, for example.

Yeah.

I mean, while I understand numbers, I love playing with numbers, but I'm not an accountant.

Yeah.

So perhaps I would have liked to diversify and do that or at least attempt to be a semi accountant a bit earlier in my career.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

And, and I guess if there was what would be the, the kind of, the in, in going through that, what would you say?

The kind of one or two biggest challenges you, you've had in your, your career or things that didn't necessarily go particularly well as, as planned?

So look, I, I've learned the biggest from when things don't go to plan.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I think that's where you pick up the scars, that's where you pick up the learnings.

I think if I go back, things that didn't go to plan were mostly around, well, actually around two themes.

So one was around the way teams work.

And as I started to take on more leadership roles, I think I had to go through the learning curve of just flexing and adapting my style.

And that was a journey I went on and I didn't always get it right, especially when like back when I started my career, I was just parachuted into this role of like go sort this claim system, project out where I was empowered, but very little like real life experience and everybody around me.

So there was a team of hundred people working on the project and I was like, just parachuted in to sort it out.

Everybody around me was like twice my age, lots more gray hair, lots more experience.

And I think my management style at that point wasn't how I would manage and look at things now.

So I think I learned a lot through that, which is just flexing my management and leadership style, working with diverse teams.

So I think that's one learning that I have picked up through my career.

I think the second bit is just really believing in your convictions right at the start.

Because some of these transformations that I talk about are three or five year journeys.

And as you go through them, you go through lots of different dynamics, lots of different conflicting priorities.

And I've seen sometimes you end up with situations where you start off with a compromise already and then three years later, of course you've not hit the outcome because you made some key compromises right at the start.

What I've learned through my career as years have gone by is really believing in the convictions right at the start and being harder about direction of travel, the talent that's needed, the alignment that's required right at the start, before you start on this space mission.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's.

There's, there's a lot in there.

What, what?

And then the kind of last bit actually just where I wanted to move on to some, some quick fire questions.

I'm gonna fight you.

What, what would you say the, the kind of, the, the big decisions you made in your career that, that you look back on and think like you said about crossroads that you've had there.

There would have been two or three big decisions there that you, you think you made the right, you kind of made the right call and just be good to understand a little the thought process behind when you made them.

So I think I go back to key inflection points through, through my career and I go back to my university days.

So I think inflection point number one was when I was going through this army training and then I had a call to make.

Whether I continue down this path or I go back to something I didn't know existed.

Could.

It could have been a very different life, a very different life.

And I didn't even know what I would do if I don't go.

Still be in India, right?

Yeah, but, but I, I was still in the middle of university, so I was what, 17 or 18 back then?

Yeah, yeah.

And I didn't know what completing my university in degree physics would bring.

Right.

Would I become like a scientist sitting in a corner doing research all day?

I didn't know.

So I think that was an inflection point.

And at that age it felt like I had to just draw up a lot of courage to get to that decision point.

And I was glad my parents and back then mentors, teachers around me supported that once they heard my way of thinking.

So I think that was one inflection point.

The second again through that journey was finished.

My course went and do my MBA at that point.

The general trend back in India was everybody was doing tech, everybody was doing a master's in engineering going down that path.

And again I went a little bit against the grain there.

So while I still look, I still stayed close to the tech world, I didn't fully dip my toes into it, which I think in hindsight has played out and has aligned well with the way I look at the world and my personality.

So I think that was, that was the second inflection point.

The third was when I, when I moved into Deloitte.

So moving from a PR play tech firm to this broader role at Deloitte, and I think again, that was great because that was at the right time.

It just broadened my skill set and led me to look beyond tech.

And the final one to call out would be when I made the move from, from Deloitte into Aon and that's where we had the twins.

So I would, I would let them take the credit for me thinking about making that.

Yeah, yeah.

Have you got other kids now?

We just have.

I've got a son, Rohil, and my daughter Ariana.

Yeah, they're about to be seven.

They are, they're a handful, but a lot of fun.

You just.

It's got it all done in one.

In one hit.

Right.

I've got some quick fire questions to fight you.

Yes, shoot.

So the first one is which brand or company do you most admire and why?

I would say Patagonia, because.

Okay.

Yeah.

The mission.

The mission they have and, and how they go about delivering that mission.

That's like an, it's like an environmental thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

So look, they're a clothing brand, but they take a big chunk of their profits and reinvest that into sponsoring and supporting grassroots projects that, that impact climate change.

Yeah.

And local communities.

And I think they do that in a very clever way.

So they, they, in a lot of ways they are an anti capitalism brand.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

If you could swap jobs with anyone for the day, who would it be?

Oh, that's a, that's an interesting one.

So one of my, one of my part time hobby stroke pursuits that I don't spend a lot of time doing is spend time with horses.

Okay.

And you mentioned something picked up.

Yes.

Through, through my, through my schooling years and when I was young.

So my dream job, if I was not doing this would be something around horses.

Two thoughts come to my mind.

Either a horse whisperer to be able to influence horses to behave in a different way.

Yeah.

Or I would have a ranch somewhere and have these expeditions that I could organize and run where I would go around the world on a horseback.

Yeah.

Do you ever do any of that, like just as a hobby now or anything?

I do every now and again, but as I'm getting older, sometimes my, the rest of my body doesn't agree.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My mom's got two horses of.

Yeah.

I've grown up Around a bit of that.

The.

So the next one is what moment in your career are you most proud of and why?

Oh.

So couple of, couple of examples come to mind.

I'll pick one.

So this was again, this is good few years ago and I think I was parachuted into a new role, new situation, new client.

And day one I was in the boardroom and I was handed a sheet of like 50 different things that they wanted resolved on high priority.

And as I started going through the list, I thought, look, half of them are just not realistic.

The other half are linked to the other half, the first half, which are not realistic.

So I just took that away quietly and then I just methodically worked behind the scenes and then came back at the next board meeting in three months time.

And I said, hey, you wanted those 50, but.

And you wanted me to just tell you when we are going to solve all that.

But I worked with the team, I worked with the existing team, the new team I had brought on.

And actually here's a slightly different take on those.

We've linked those 50 to your board outcomes and actually we should only do five and not 50.

And they bought that.

So I went from a situation, reduced it by 90%.

Yeah.

So to just focus on a small number of things that really deliver outcome.

And I think I was really proud and chuffed at that.

And this is going back years.

So at that stage of my career, being in that environment, that was a nice high.

And a lot of learning.

Yeah.

I was gonna say you must have learned a lot about kind of challenging the challenging and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Next one is best business or kind of non fiction related book that you've ever read.

I mostly read nonfiction when I have spare time.

I somehow can't get myself around to reading fiction as much.

I prefer to watch tv.

Yeah.

That's another story.

Yeah.

So nonfiction.

I like the book.

I like Malcolm Gladwell as, as an author.

One of his books called Blink is.

Is fascinating.

Okay.

And that talks about decision making but subconscious decision making.

And, and he's done some studies and leaned on some other studies where he talks about how we, how we pick up subconscious signals in an environment and they influence the way we make decisions.

Yeah.

And how more often than not those decisions are accurate.

And the decisions we make in those first 60 seconds are probably as accurate as a decision you would make after doing three months of analysis and looking at hardcore data.

And he's done a number of studies to compare those two outcomes where he's put people in a room, said Based on just this limited information in 60 seconds, you've got to take a side.

And then you spent like three months of analysis, you come back with like 100 pages and you look at the decision and he says there is a strong correlation between those two decisions.

So he advocates just believing in your subconscious ability a little bit more.

Yeah, I don't know if you've ever read Elon Musk, but he's a bit like that.

Like not quite.

But he makes decision really quickly and just accepts that there's going to.

You're going to have some collateral damage damage by doing that.

But actually more often not.

It's kind of your instinctive idea is the way forward.

Hence why you just get stuff done really quickly.

Absolutely.

And by the way, I'm not suggesting we should not be making data back decision.

We should absolutely make data back decisions.

But I think sometimes no matter how much data you put in front, it's not enough or it's not complete.

Sometimes you gotta make a call.

That shouldn't shy of us from making any decisions.

Yeah.

You said tv.

It's not one of the questions I was gonna ask you, but what's your favorite TV show?

And I said, that's interesting because I've got.

I've got into this habit over the last couple of years where I fall asleep within 15 minutes of whatever I'm watching.

So I spend more time arguing with my wife on what to watch than actually watching.

My wife's exactly the same thing.

But the show I recently enjoyed was Baby Reindeer.

I don't know if you've seen that.

Fascinating.

And.

No, that was a good one.

Good.

Next one is if you could make.

Wave a magic wand and change one thing about insurance, what would it be?

Waving a magic wand?

It'd be anything.

Yeah.

So I would, you know, back in the day you start to see less of it nowadays.

But back in the day, when I started working in the market, you would see brokers and underwriters carrying lots of leather folders and piles of documents in a briefcase and go around buildings.

If I could change one thing, I would go back 30 years and replace those leather folders with iPads.

Yeah.

If we would have.

If we could do that, we would have sorted the data problem by now for the market.

All that data is structured and in the systems.

Yeah, yeah, good one.

Who's the one person you most admire and why?

I would say it's my dad.

And I think for just being a great role model and inculcating the values of.

Just keep on the path that you're destined to be.

Don't get distracted with what's happening around you.

Just keep backing yourself.

What did you do that day?

He used to work for.

He retired last year, but he used to work for the Airports Authority of India.

So he's still in India.

He is in India.

He's in Mumbai and so is my mom and my brother, but he used to head up their entire telecommunications department.

So I grew up around airplanes and I would go into the air traffic control towers and speak to the pilots on the walkie talkies and stuff and watch the radars and things bleeping.

So, yeah, I think, yeah, what I learned from him was, hey, just drama happens in the world.

You stay focused on the path and just keep staying focused on the path and things will eventually work out.

Do you go back to India much?

I try and go back once a year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But with, with the kids now, it's just tricky trying to align their clubs and school commitments and holidays.

But no, I think so.

My dad.

Yes.

Besides that, if I had to pick like, like a fictional role model.

Yeah.

I don't know if you've seen the movie Gladiator, the first one, not the second one.

I think the second one.

Second one's a real awful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

From the first movie.

Probably my favorite film.

Yeah, one of my favorite films too.

And the, the character of Maximus there is quite inspirational.

Yeah.

In a lot of ways.

So.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that.

Yes.

And then the last question is, what's the best thing about working in insurance?

I think the best thing about working in insurance, one, look, London.

London is a great place to be in if you're in insurance.

It is this global center of excellence that, that really impacts the way risk is looked at all around the world.

Whenever anything, any natural event or a disaster or a risk event happens in the world and it's on the news, guess what?

Next day we start to think about, hey, what's our exposure?

How are we paying out?

How much are we paying out as a market?

So I think I like the fact that London is that global center of excellence for insurance and we are able to really protect so many risks in this volatile world.

More, more specifically, I think it's a great time to be in insurance for all the reasons that we've been talking about.

Lots of change, lots of transformation, lots of opportunity to do things differently.

And I think there's, there is, there's so much we could do as an insurance industry.

And I think it's I'm really energized as we all play our roles in that journey and hopefully just watch that change over the next few years and certainly by the time we all hang our hat.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

It's definitely gonna be a busy time.

Well, look, thank you so much for making some time to have a chat with us.

I know you're really busy.

I'm sure there'll be some people that want to get in touch with you.

LinkedIn's normally wherever you're happy for people to kind of reach out and connect and all that good stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

Very happy for people to reach out on LinkedIn.

And thank you for having me over, Mark.

Pleasure.

It's been a pleasure reconnecting with you after all these years and I certainly enjoyed our conversation.

Great.

Well everybody, if if anyone wants to connect with Ketten or myself, you know where to get us and we will catch you again next time.

Cheers, Ketten.

Thank you, Mark.

Cheers.

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