Welcome to the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Podcast.

I'm Kate Moore Youssef and I'm a wellbeing and lifestyle coach, EFT practitioner, mum to four kids and passionate about helping more women to understand and accept their amazing ADHD brains.

After speaking to many women just like me and probably you, I know there is a need for more health and lifestyle support for women newly diagnosed with adhd.

In these conversations, you'll learn from insightful guests, hear new findings, and discover powerful perspectives and lifestyle tools to enable you to live your most fulfilled, calm and purposeful life wherever you are on your ADHD journey.

Here's today's episode.

I'm here today with a really interesting guest and we've just been talking off, off camera about something that I'm very passionate about and I think we need to talk about more.

So I'm really happy to introduce Susanna Gonzalez.

Now, Susanna is a qualified neurodiversity specialist, teacher and founder of ND Bright Brains, which is a company that supports neurodivergent young people and their families.

And she believes that every ND individual has a unique neurotype with traits spanning multiple categories.

We talk about this a lot in the podcast.

So she has expertise in ADHD or dhd, dyslexia, OCD and giftedness.

And Susannah draws on her professional and personal lived experience with ADHD to help these neurodivergent individuals navigate the world of education and beyond.

She's also qualified with the British Dyslexia association through training at UCL.

In addition, she has over 18 years experience teaching in UK secondary schools.

And this, I guess, is given her the insight into what is actually possible in schools and the challenges neurodivergent learners face.

And as an advocate, she's implemented inclusive practices and created ND Brain School, a program empowering ND students to become independent learners.

So I am so excited.

What a, what a biog.

Amazing.

Thank you very much, Kate.

Thank you for, for that introduction.

Yeah, it feels like you are at that inflection point of ensuring that this information that we're talking about is rippled out to schools and to maybe non sen teachers or people who aren't really in this neurodiversity space so they can help and support more neurodivergent students.

Would that be about right?

Yes, absolutely.

We have a big opportunity now that adults like us are finding out about our own neurodivergence and we're all going up the learning curve quite quickly, the ones that we needed through our children and ourselves.

And our families.

But we have an incredible opportunity to assess how schools, which I know are very, very busy environments and teachers definitely have a really tough job in terms of a very intense job.

You look after so many children.

I used to see 150 different students in lessons every day.

So that's like thousands of interactions.

But there's still a lot that schools can do with very little budget.

And just by really increasing the understanding, bringing the neurodiversity perspective into our classrooms and working and being a bit flexible in the processes that are used in schools, which are often can be quite difficult for neurodivergent learners.

Yeah, I think that's so interesting, isn't it, that word flexible?

Because you said you work on things that don't have to cost a lot of money.

And I know what you said then.

I got, you know, kids myself in schools.

I know how pressurized the environment is to be a teacher, how exhausting it is.

I sometimes sort of say I wish schools could step up more.

But I also recognize how hard it is if you are managing 30, 40, 50 students and to be able to start spot those nuanced signs of neurodivergence.

But I think that the more we talk about it and we're able to educate the educators, as we said, that we're able to give these students those little moments of support, that flexibility.

Maybe you can give us an idea of what you consider flexibility.

We're thinking a busy secondary school environment.

There's a lot of kids with a lot of needs.

What kind of flexibility and accommodations could someone do from tomorrow for their students?

Yes, of course, the first step, the most important point, is to train the teaching staff in neurodiversity in education neuroscience so that they can understand and accept that there are learning differences and that there are executive function profile differences.

The development of organizational skills, as we know in neurodivergent children, is delayed.

Their sensory profile is different.

And all of this is going to mean that children might not be able to respond to certain demands that are created in a classroom environment.

And when a child is not able to meet a demand, normally we will have an observed behavior.

And then if you don't have the neurodiversity perspective in mind, there is the danger that the educator, the teacher, or even the parent might think that that observed behavior is a choice of that child.

They are choosing not to engage with the work.

For example, get started on this question, and the child is not starting on the question.

That could be a situation in which the behavior system starts being applied.

Well, here's your first warning, here's your second warning.

But then when we stop and think, what's happening?

Why is this child not starting the work?

It could be a neurodivergent child.

And I give you two possible scenarios, both of them known to me to be truth, working with families.

So it could be a child that is severely dyslexic, but he's highly able.

So he's made it to secondary school without really being noticed.

But he has not been supported to be able to access the work.

But now you have a teenager that also has a face to sort of present a facade to look after because he's like with his peers.

So we can see how quickly that can become problematic.

So as an adult, we need to ask ourselves what is happening to this child?

We also know that often autistic children might develop ocd.

OCD might be making them to be avoidant of doing certain things.

And then again, it could be the same scenario.

So by having more understanding of why is this child displaying this behavior, then you can apply measures that are more constructive and more positive rather than just going down a more sort of just punitive road, which often sometimes is the case, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's like, you know, if you think from a teacher's perspective and you've got an undiagnosed neurodivergent child and perhaps being more disruptive or defiant or maybe being quite impulsive or dysregulated in class, and you've got.

You're the only teacher in one class and you've got like 25, 30 kids in that class.

It's really hard, isn't it?

Because it's kind of like, right, that child is the one that is being the difficult child, the one that's maybe sort of creating disturbance.

The easy thing is to take that child out of, you know, exclude that child from class.

But it's trying to find, like you say, this sort of flexibility or this curiosity as to.

Okay, child doesn't want to really, even if they're showing off or they're being defiant.

And maybe I'm being naive, but I truly believe that most children, deep inside of them, they want to do well, They've got this.

They, yeah, they want to please, they want to strive, they want to succeed.

But like you say, if they are struggling to read, if they know they're behind, if they can't even get their hand, you know, onto the paper to start their work, then what other alternative is there?

You know, play up and mess about how do we then get these educators on side to be patient under very pressurized situations?

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's definitely not easy.

There's a number of things you said there that I want to reflect on.

First of all, you're absolutely right.

Professor Green talks about this in his book the Explosive Child, which by the way, is also really good read for non explosive anxious children because it's to do with avoidance.

But he says a child will do well if they can because it is human nature to choose the adaptive behavior.

You don't want to stand out, you want to comply with what's been asked from you.

So I think that's a really good positive premise to start from.

Then secondly is also the fact that of course it's not easy.

It's not easy and it should not all be done to the teacher in the classroom because the teacher in the classroom will have limitations as of how much they can do.

There needs to be, first of all, a differentiation of behavior.

So with a neurodivergent child, we need to know the behavior they're displaying.

Is it something that they really cannot, cannot avoid because it's due to a lagging skill that they still need to develop?

So, for example, they might not be able to engage in literacy work, but also equally, we need to work with the neurodivergent children to make them understand that they are part of a group and that they need to be accountable for their behavior so that they are not interrupting other children's behavior.

But we need to educate them into this, but also allowing them for their neurobiology.

We need to work with them and educate them and assess.

Do they need a movement break?

How is that going to look like?

We need to teach them and be very clear.

This is how your movement break will look like.

Teach them how to self monitor.

I find that when neurodivergent children see that they are supported, they really get it.

They get the fact that they cannot interrupt somebody else's learning.

Of course, sometimes they might choose as well to not make good choices.

And that unfortunately will have to be addressed as well, like everybody else.

But in general, if you're thinking about all of the behaviors that we would want to change in a neurodivergent child, if they start feeling that you are being compassionate about them, forgetting once again, the calculator, and you just hand in a calculator.

I had a box full of calculators, a box full of glue sticks, a box full of pens, stationery, and I would just not even ask does not need to have a diagnosis or an nd brain.

For me, like forgetting should not be a punishable event really.

Anyone can have a bad morning or a child can be a carer.

You don't know.

Normally teachers don't know what's happening in that child's life.

So in general, if we could zone in and just prioritize only some of the behaviors that are really worth working on, then we will get a much better response and much better collaboration from that child.

Yeah, I really like that.

It's kind of like choose your battles really, isn't it?

Yeah, but the other things, and I know this from speaking to so many people who have grown up neurodivergent without understanding and that, that self blame, the self criticism has been compounded by maybe teachers, parents, caregivers, whoever that is, who have kind of like criticized them for those little things like, oh, you always forget homework.

Why can't you just do this like the other children?

Those beliefs have sort of stayed put and that has kind of really impacted their, their, you know, life and how they've thrived.

And I really, really liked what you said about self monitoring because, you know, if we've got a child that understands from a young age that their nd their neurodivergent brains and they need, maybe their sensory overwhelm is something that they need to monitor or like you say, they need movement based and they can start recognizing those restless signs.

I think a child from the age of six can say, you know what, my feet are tapping and I'm fidgeting and I'm fine feeling hot and I just need to go and have a, you know, go outside.

I think a 6 year old can then start advocating for themselves and as they get older they can start recognizing, okay, this is a really noisy room and I'm really struggling to process the information here.

It makes so much sense because it's about self empowerment and instead of it being this kind of like living in a victimhood state and if you know what's going on, you can ask for what you need and then you don't need to always be on this kind of oh, I didn't know or sorry, it's my fault again, that type of thing.

So I mean, do you educate children?

I like, I like what you said about their neurobiology.

So giving them that very specific understanding of how their ADHD presents or their autism or the dyslexia so they can spot those signs themselves.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

It definitely, it's got to be something that is age appropriate, and is maturity appropriate as well.

So there's a supportive language, and you normalize neurodiversity, which we've done in our house, and I'm sure you do in yours as well.

But what I explain to the families and the young people I work with, I focus a lot on neuroplasticity because I say to them, I explain to them about neurodevelopmental delay, what it means.

It doesn't mean that you won't get to develop your prefrontal cortex, but it does mean that for a period of time, your organizational skills are going to be lagging.

It's going to be more difficult for you than for your neurotypical peers to do certain things to do with organization and sequencing of tasks and time management.

But what I say to them as well is that if you start from an early age being aware and actually practicing certain organizational skills.

For example, I remember practicing packing the bag for the next day with my son.

And it took, maybe, I think it took us like the whole of the first term of secondary school, but slowly, slowly, then he is able to do it.

And by exposing the children, making them accountable, supporting them, but making them do it, what we are doing through that practice is we're firing our neurological connections and we're actually forcing our brain to develop.

And that is the beauty and the magic of neuroplasticity.

It's not magic, it's science.

But if we don't practice and if we do it for them, then they're not going to develop.

That's what's so interesting about compensatory strategies or, like, supporting the development of strategies.

So it's not.

If we stop doing something, then our brain is going to think, oh, that's not necessary to be done.

And it'll prune away that area that is responsible for getting you to do that particular skill.

So it is important that our kids develop all of the skills to the maximum possible.

And then, of course, compensatory skills can help to go faster, to make sure that we don't forget as much if we have an alarm on the phone.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you, is that what it means when you say that?

It's like using things like apps and alarms and reminders?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And he's working with the kids to say, okay, what do you think it's going to work for you?

And while they are developing those skills, those executive functions, they should not be punished for not being able to do something that they just physically, biologically they cannot do yet.

So you're punishing their disability, really.

And that's what's really sad, because then you are causing an emotional response, and you're creating a sense of helplessness.

And often they start distrusting adults around them because it's like, well, they don't get me.

They don't like neurodivergent kids.

And then in the other areas where you need more their cooperation, like, you know, there's 30 of you in the classroom.

How can we get this right?

Then they're not going to be as cooperative.

But if they see that we are on it, we are supporting, we are caring, we understand.

My students always say to me, it's just so nice because you get it, you get it.

And I think that getting it gives them safety.

And then it's like, okay, I'm then going to pay more attention to the areas where I can cooperate a bit more.

Yeah.

And I think they probably do feel safer with you and able to connect with you, because you do get it.

Because when an adult can say, I get it, packing your bag every day, remembering everything and ticking things off your diary and all of that, it's hard work.

You know, I was speaking to someone the other day, and they've got a son who's about 12, 11 or 12, and she kept sort of going in and giving him a kiss good night, realizing his hair didn't smell so great.

So she sort of realized that he hadn't been taught how to, like, wash his hair and wash his body properly.

And she was just thought it was like, it was a given that, you know, the age of 11, you know how to wash your hair, you know how to wash your body.

So she actually said, right.

Do you understand that when you scrub your hair, you've got to do it like this, and then you've got to rinse it.

And this is, you know, this is what you do with it under your arms and all of that.

And he was like, well, no one told me.

So I guess it's kind of, you know, when you've got a neurodivergent kid, we sort of just expect everyone just to know the rules and the instructions, but they're busy focusing on things that they really care about and, you know, doing other cool stuff and packing their bag and remembering things every single day is incredibly boring and mundane for their brains.

So we have to.

And I think teachers have to recognize that, like, really be able to spot that the child that is excelling in one subject and really struggling in another and not Criticizing or thinking that they just can't be bothered or they're lazy.

It's like, okay, we've got a child here that's showing incredible potential in one subject, but zero interest in another.

What is that telling me?

And I personally think that all teachers now should know that.

Okay, what's that telling me?

There's an interesting brain biology going on.

Neurobiology.

I'm Eunice.

I'm not a teacher.

I could never be a teacher to children.

I love teaching adults, but to children, I don't think that's my forte.

You know, people are being taught now to be teachers.

They're trained.

What kind of part is neurodiversity training in becoming a teacher right now?

Well, I have to say that up until five years ago, I had not had any neurodiversity training.

I've had isolated trainings, maybe a little bit on autism, a little bit on dyslexia, but it's always from the symptoms, a little bit the challenges, but it's not applied.

Teachers need to know what helps in the classroom, and most teachers want to help, but they need to understand what can help.

So, for example, you mentioned interest driven, acknowledging the fact I worked in a grammar school where I had really highly abled students.

Of course, some of them were not interested in chemistry at all.

And the first thing is acknowledging that that is okay.

It is okay, because if I had to study Macbeth, I would really struggle because that's not my interest.

But then we talk science and I light up because that's what's my interest.

Biochemistry in particular.

So acknowledging that, but then also having an honest conversation and say, okay, so what is it you're expecting in this subject?

And normally, like, if you're in a grammar school, they're all predicted the top grades, which is quite stressful, but you might find one that says, you know what?

I'm happy with a level 5, a grade 5 in the GCSE.

And then is the institution flexible to say, actually maybe that's okay, given the profile of this girl, because she's going to study English literature later on, but also, how can we make these children that are not just that may not be that interested in one particular subject, but also that due to their neurobiology, they'll find it more difficult to keep up with the lessons?

And for me, the key thing that teachers need to understand is that if you provide these students with the structure for learning, they're going to be doing so much more.

So first of all, accepting that they will miss verbal instructions and also they will miss a lot of information and sometimes they will not be able to, to do the work in the lessons.

Because we know that neurodivergent brains work better in outbursts of energy.

We work better.

Like we hyper focus for a long time and then maybe another day we have very little energy.

So accepting that and then saying, okay, if this child, maybe today or this couple of days is not really connected with the lessons, but what can I do as a department to make the learning available so that when they are sort of in the zone of learning, when they've got that energy to then put into learning in that subject, they don't feel ashamed of having to say to you, oh, you know, I didn't pay attention.

But actually it's already there.

So what we did in my department and everyone contributed, which is great, is we created, we had Google Drive for GCSE for a level with all of the slides of all of the lessons.

And we had the specification of the subject.

So the kids have a checklist of everything.

Every single lesson had the checklist corresponding to the bit of the specification.

We had textbooks available.

It's so important to have a textbook.

Then what we did also we developed all of these resources and made them available.

But then we made it twice in the year.

We made it at the beginning and then when they were doing for the exams, we made them a very big point of explaining to them where things are.

This is here where.

So you have to train them to use the resources.

It's not just about having the resources available.

Some of these kids might.

Three months might go by and they don't even realize that that's where the resources are for my biology or for my physics.

But it's teaching them how to use it and teaching them where things are and making them accountable.

And that's often, I think, in schools because we're so rushed, we assume, we assume that everyone knows how to log into whatever platforms.

We sometimes have revision platforms that they can use.

And you find that some kids never log in.

And then it's like having that sort of thinking is like, we need to teach them, we need to show them and make them do it.

This is not just telling them we need to show them and get them to do it.

Yeah, I think the sharing bit is so interesting because sometimes in our heads we'll think, well, I don't.

That's so many steps.

And that's really.

And then I need a password and I'm going to need to be on my laptop to do that.

And then I just think, you know what, it's just too many things and the overwhelm kicks in already before we even log in.

But like you say, if we just show them in a five, ten minute lesson, then, okay, great, now it's made, it's easy.

And it's just removing those blocks, isn't it?

Those obstacles that in our heads often feel much more overwhelming.

I've had, you know, we've had it so many times.

You see the memes online that sort of say, you know, that that task we've been putting off for two weeks, we end up doing in a hyper focus of 10 minutes and we think, why have we spent two weeks of anxiety procrastinating?

But that is what our brains do.

And on the flip side, what's amazing, like you say we do, they have these bursts of energy and we can go into, you know, hyper focus mode and get probably like a week's worth of work done in five hours.

But we also need to know that, okay, we're going to need to retreat or we're going to need to rest more.

Something that I struggle with.

You know, I've got two, I've, two kids have already done GCSEs.

I've got another daughter who's doing her GCSEs in a year or so.

And I have never heard any of the teachers helping with neurodivergence, style revision.

So all my kids are, you know, ADHD and you know, one dyslexia and I mean, a few, I mean, I don't know, they're all sort of so many different blends of neurodivers, neurodiversity.

So they've had to come up with ways of revising that work for them.

But I would love it if a teacher could say to them, right, I know that this is where you struggle, you struggle with retaining information.

I know that you struggle with the processing of the information.

And I know that you need to maybe read this information quite a few times.

This is the type of revision that I would say suggest because it just feels like my kids have muddled through their revision and it's worked in some ways, in some ways it hasn't worked.

And I think like you say, we need to get the educators to start saying, right, if you can't retain information or you struggle to process this information, here is a way.

Because GCSE for me are just a neurodivergent nightmare.

Yes.

Yeah, I agree, I completely agree that.

I think that GCSES is the most difficult it's really that inflection point in the everyday education system because you have anything between nine or 10 subjects, they still have some 10 GCSEs in some schools and it's just too much variety.

Only like having to look after 10 different exercise books is already an executive function nightmare.

Never mind whether you're interested or not interested in the subjects.

But yes, you're absolutely right.

And what I think would be very useful is what we know doesn't help.

We know that that doesn't help.

From me, talking to a lot of neurodivergent learners is that an adult sits with them and tells them, this is what you've got to do.

You have to now read this, you have to take notes, you've got to make flashcards and then you've got to do whatever.

Maybe a couple of past paper questions telling them what to do is counterproductive because not everything will work for everyone.

So a much more open approach of giving them options and help them to self reflect on their own learning is a lot more useful.

So that's one thing.

I'll come back to this, but I'm very excited as well about.

I've been into schools recently in primary schools and where there's a lot of young.

Everyone looks young to me at the moment, but like young teachers who said, oh, you know, I'm, I'm dyslexic, I've got ADHD and they're all learning about their neurotypes and they're all reflecting on their own learning and they're all realizing all this different.

So I'm really think that as more and more neurodivergent and also neurotypical brains are aware of all of these differences, we will be much better placed to offer options to the neurodivergent kids that need a little bit of help finding out how they learn.

But for me it's all about giving them options and pushing that metacognition, that ability to self reflect on how they have been successful here.

Why?

What have I done?

Or why did I make this so difficult?

What have I done to get here and sort of go on that cycle of a plan do review themselves.

So, for example, one way in which I teach neurodivergent students to revise particular adhd, it works really well for gifted kids as well, and autistic kids, is that instead of saying to them, go and read about this topic and make notes, which can be very dangerous because you might go down the rabbit hole on something super interesting and then never get to where you've got to go to.

I get them to go straight to the past.

Paper questions, print them all out, choose a topic, print.

There's lots of websites, they can find passpaper questions and then answer the questions.

But not testing themselves, because if they're going to test themselves, there's going to be a lot of emotions involved because they're going to feel like they haven't revised enough.

They have no idea what this is about.

You are not allowed to answer the question without looking at for the answer.

So by them looking for the answer, you are sort of turning it a little bit into a game.

It is a bit of a challenge.

You're engaging the brain, they're scanning.

So they're still developing skills that are useful for learning, finding the right content.

And then I say to them, you write the answer and then what you do once you've written the answer, then we get the mask came out and then we mark it and we see.

And in that moment, neurodivergent brains will start making links, spotting patterns.

Oh, this expression comes up again and again.

It's quite an important one.

So I'm going to learn this.

And then as they go through that cycle and I get them to do it question by question and they can set a timer, they can say, okay, they do 30 minutes, some 45.

Some kids can go up to an hour and they think, well, every time it's not very threatening for them.

And then in that time, then their brain, because our neurodivergent brains are so good at making connections and spotting patterns, then they start realizing, oh, this question comes up quite often and actually this expression is quite a good one.

And it's just three words.

So I'm going to write that down and then do the flashcards.

Yeah, once you've done that part.

So it's almost like turning the house upside down.

But I find that they, they find it that is more manageable and they find that there's a lot more of efficient learning.

Maybe it's more enjoyable as well, which is going to make them want to do it again.

For sure.

Yeah.

I mean, we know, don't we, that any, you know, if you've got a teacher that you like, even if they're teaching you your worst subject, if that lesson is enjoyable by making it fun, practical, engaging, we know that that neurodivergent child is gonna try and do well, they're gonna try and behave.

You know, I always see that with my kids, that there's maybe a lesson that they've never shown that much interest in.

But then the teacher, this new teacher comes along, plays games, engages, and all of a sudden that subject is fun.

And I don't think that's a wrong thing to try and gamify for neurodivergent brains.

It's like, okay, how can we make this fun?

How could like you say, the spotting the patterns, making it into something like a game that they can achieve?

Because at the end of the day, we want, we want people to succeed.

We want these kids to have self belief, we want, you know, whether they want to go down like all types of different routes.

And now I feel that there's, you know, lots of options that kids can feel successful in, but they have to get there, they have to have that self belief.

And it does start and end in school with making that kind of connection between, okay, I've got something here, I've got potential.

Not thinking that what they've got is a weakness or something that's going to hold them back and help them understand that, okay, we've got, you know, this type of neurobiology and that's just the way my brain is.

And so, you know, whether I've got dyslexia or ADHD or autism, there's so many options for me out there.

There's ways for me to be able to do well in life, but it does come from like teachers empowering kids and giving them as many flexible options as possible to, to do well and not block their success.

So I think, and this is a, it's a fascinating conversation, I'm sure people are wondering how, I guess how you work, like what, who do you support?

Do you support the teachers, the parents, the kids?

In what capacity?

I love doing neurodiversity and education training.

So I've gone into school, schools, teacher training.

I've done invigilator training.

After training the teachers, the school has called me back to do a talk for all parents.

Then one of the parents in one of the schools I spoke at, she just called me last week for neurodiversity week and got me to speak to all the employees worldwide of this hundred thousand employee company that she worked because she thought, oh, you know what you said in your talk is so important, like everyone needs to hear this.

So I do, I guess in general, any adult that needs training in neurodiversity in education, I'm there because it's so important.

And then what I also do is I work one to one.

I support families and teenagers mainly in secondary schools to support their teen and the teenager to understand how they can work through school less painfully and more successfully and looking after themselves.

I've done group courses as well, which are sometimes really applicable for parents that prefer to have that group environment so that they can share experiences with other parents and equally often group teens like the Brain School, the ND Bright Brain School groups as well.

And what I find is that when you normalize neurodiversity in a group, it's much more powerful in a way because it makes them feel that they are not the odd one out, that there are more people that share their neurotype.

And it's about keeping the eyes on the price.

Like I always remind them, school is temporary.

It's temporary because it tends to be quite a difficult time for neurodivergent learners.

But what you've got to do is find, find your interest, find your passion, know your strengths.

So really work with the strength based model.

These are all the things that you do very well.

These are the things we need to get done in order to be able to get to where you want to get, which is totally possible.

Now what are the strategies and how can we look after ourselves in the process in these years that perhaps are going to be more difficult?

And I really think that empowering young people to reflect earlier on, on their strengths, interests and obviously also on their weaknesses and how they can, they can sort of work around those a little bit better.

And sometimes it's outsourcing what you don't want to do, but also sometimes the strategies but definitely will empower them to make better decisions.

Like what is the type of work environment that is going to suit my neurotype more.

Yeah.

So they don't find themselves in a situation that a lot of us perhaps at some point have found ourselves that what am I doing here?

Why am I here?

Because you're on this like train track, like at university, get a job, whatever job.

And sometimes we don't get our young people to think about first, what is it?

What are your needs?

What do you want?

Because there's endless possibilities and that is I think really important.

Yeah.

Giving kids the language to be able to articulate and self advocate and really know, like you say, if they have that space to reflect on what's working for them, what isn't working for them, where they're struggling and to know what they can ask for.

Like, you know, some kids be like, what do you mean?

I can, I can ask, I can, you know, speak to the teacher.

I can say this and it's all about empowering, like you say.

And we want, we want these kids to do well.

We want neurodivergent kids to no longer be those kids that are leaving school early or struggling to get jobs or feeling isolated or depressed or anxious.

We want them to have this skill set and to be able to really hone in on those strengths so they don't always feel like they're just being led by their weaknesses, which I think so many.

And sadly, you know, many people have that they've just got this story because their environment has told them that they are not.

They can't amount to anything.

So I think you're doing an amazing job, Susanna.

And I know that lots of people will probably want to be in touch.

Just tell people what website.

Is there one specific website they can head to to get in touch with you?

Yeah, so I have, I have a website which is called nd bright brains.com so you can find, you can find me there or you can drop me an email, contact dbrightbrains.

I'm working on a couple of interesting things like this term I've been working on, on some talks which I have recorded and they're available in my website.

I've created a little video library to sort of give an idea of neurodiversity in education in general, which is a free talk.

But also then I dive into each of the different neurotypes to explain a little bit what they are and how they can interfere with, with learning and how can we support them.

And I'll be doing some more courses for parents and teens.

But yeah, all the information will be available in my website.

Amazing.

Well, thank you so much, Susannah and it's been really fabulous talking to you.

Thank you for having me.

I've really enjoyed it.

Thank you.

If this episode has been helpful for you and you're looking for more, more tools and more guidance, my brand new book, the ADHD Women's well Being Toolkit is out now.

You can find it wherever you buy your books from.

You can also check out the audiobook if you do prefer to listen to me.

I have narrated it all myself.

Thank you so much for being here and I will see you for the next episode.