Washington Square. On air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review. Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing. Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Lucken, editor for the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with Anthony Arthur, whose poem Productivity is in our Summer 24 issue. Hey there, Anthony.

Hi, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me.

Sure thing. Tell us about your poem.

Well, productivity is quite the rumination on some of the themes that I felt have become really, really sacrosanct. Living in the 21st century, mainly surrounding the idea that one's worth is centered around their ability to produce things and their productivity within sort of a capitalist framework. Now, I often say to people, I am most certainly not communist leaning. I've worked for everything. I have my life. And I believe in rugged individualism to a great extent. But I definitely think that we're in an era where, you know, we have to start to reframe the way we value people beyond just money. And I think that we're seeing, you know, globally there are animals and so much animal abuse, so much destruction of wildlife, so much destruction of people's livelihoods, let alone anything even more grandiose happening around the world that we have to consider in terms of, you know, is it really worthwhile? Is that productivity worthwhile when we're considering people's lives?

There's a toll on the person too, as well, not just on society, but as in each individual. Have you seen that in your own life, people around you, or experienced it yourself?

Yeah, you know, I found it really, really intriguing, I think, especially being a mixed race writer. You know, I'm American, British and Kuwaiti, so it's a really combo and quite racially mixed as well, and ethnically mixed. So it's always been really interesting growing up, seeing the way different cultures have framed production. And I think seeing my grandmother who's, you know, she's been in the Middle east since 1968, since she married my grandfather, a Boston native. She went from having that, you know, sort of, I guess, you know, during the Second World War, you know, American army brat experience, she used to live in Japan. My great grandfather was stationed there in Korea. And, you know, having her move to the Middle east and the experiences she had as an American lady in the middle of the Middle east in a newly formed country and how that shaped her and her ability to produce things was. Was quite tough. Seeing the experiences she had that quite negatively impacted her and then seeing that of Course, with my mum being mixed race, seeing that with my aunts, you know, I, I can say that I think, you know, the idea to produce impacts women so much more because society doesn't factor in their needs, you know, especially living and, you know, and a great deal of much of the world. So there's a great deal of patriarchy that still exists.

Are there any specific examples that come to mind with any of your relatives that you mentioned?

Yeah, I just think sort of how much work can take a toll on the body. So I've been quite proactive about discussing autoimmune conditions. I myself have three conditions. I have Hashimoto's, psoriatic arthritis and insulin resistance. And although some of this is genetic and it's passed down for some generations now, I think that I've seen how working so hard and focusing so much on work can really destroy your health. And unfortunately I've seen that with much of my family, with my, my own mother, my aunts, and I've seen how their desire and their hunger to work hard and to gain more has ultimately been a disservice to them because it's worn them out.

When you say gain more, I'm assuming there's a monetary aspect to that, but in what other ways does a person seek to gain more?

Well, I think it's tough, you know, because people say money doesn't make you happy. Right. But I think money makes, doesn't really make the world go around. It makes, you know, even, even space go around. You know, we're looking at billionaires trying to go out, you know, to new planets and things. I think money is just so essential now. I think we're no longer in an era where communities can sort of help people get somewhere and there's more, you know, community. You just don't have the money. You really can achieve things. I think this is so true as well in the literary world. I know personally, for me, I've had quite an unorthodox journey and I haven't been able to afford going to conferences or paying, you know, six, seven hundred dollars to do a few week workshop course or something like that. So it's always been really important to me to sort of think about how, you know, money is everything in a lot of ways. But it also means that we also have to be careful how far we take that.

I think that it's interesting what you were saying about the conferences and the networking and how that is expensive. Not just the transportation, but the conference fee. People have to pay for their own lunches and that kind of thing. And it's kind of the unspoken underside to a lot of literary communities. You said you had an unorthodox journey. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, of course. So my first ever article or publication should say was when I was 17. I had an article in the Kuwait Times called Half Kuwaiti come out. And it was sort of reflecting on my experiences of not being able to be considered a citizen because my mother is a Kuwaiti citizen, and Kuwait is one of the last countries in the world, and I believe the last of the gcc, the Gulf Cooperation Council, to not allow the woman of their, you know, their female citizens to pass on their citizenship to their children if they marry foreign men. I think from that point on, I was quite driven by social activism. But my first publications in terms of poetry came out in Kuwait in 2019. I was in a magazine called Incan Oil, and that was about five years ago yesterday, I believe. And. And then I was in the show Bear Family Circus, which I believe is defunct now in the US and from that point on, I slowly started dripping through publications and things like that. But, yeah, I didn't have the. I didn't even want to be a writer, to be honest with you. I think it just sort of happened naturally, and I just enjoyed writing and voicing my opinions. But I don't have an mfa. I haven't had any mentors. I haven't gone to lots of workshops or gone to conferences or even really paid how much for, like, editorial support. I just. It's never really been a luxury I could sort of afford. So my writing journey, yeah, has been quite unorthodox in that regard, but I think it's made me stronger for it.

I think that's interesting, the concept of teaching yourself and finding your own way. You said that you didn't want to be a writer. Did you have a concept of what a writer was? And you kind of were like, I don't want that, or you just didn't even occur to you?

I don't really think it occurred to me. You know, I think I've always had a really strong interest in language and languages. I speak other languages, of course, and I think that language has always just been a big part of my life. I like the way language sounds, the way it ebbs and flows, the meaning of synonyms that can completely embolden context. For example, I definitely think for me, it was sort of like, I wrote because I wanted to write, and I still do. And in some ways, I think that it has made me stronger as a writer and that I feel that I don't push the writing and that way I don't experience writer's block. I just write when I feel comfortable to. So, yeah, it's definitely shaped my perspective as a writer.

So when you sit down and you start to write, what is it that drives you the most, do you think?

You know, I think it can be really hard sometimes, like, because I think as someone with such a mixed race background, you know, like my, my grandmother is half Polish and half Scottish American. I grew up with Polish still being used and the food being made and, and my, you know, my great grandparents were quite recent immigrants. So their cultural influences have stuck down, you know, these last three generations, you know, and I look at my Arab Persian side, I look at my black side, I look at all these influences and I think when I was younger, it used to be more driven by trying to find a way to bridge those cultures and those backgrounds and those. And the languages that, you know, have impacted me as well. But I think now the older I get, the more I desire to write more fervently about the experiences of just a general general degradation of society and the great deal of societal malaise that's just occurring en masse globally.

I want to talk more about that. But before that, when you were talking, I was thinking about how the beautiful thing about what you're describing, kind of being a self made writer coming up your own way, is that you're free to go in whichever direction your writing takes you. Because it seems to me that some people who self identify as I am a writer, they have this constant pressure to produce. And the way you said it, you let your creativity and your interest drive what you're working on. I think that sounds like the best thing ever. I wanted to kind of loop back to this. The concept of the malaise. Where do you see that the most? Do you see it in conversations and what you read, what you see online, or maybe you see it everywhere? Where does it show up?

You know something, I think what's been really the most difficult thing for me is just seeing the lack of community. I say this in the literary community a lot. I've become quite vocal about it. I used to, my stance is I don't like to get political on my socials. And I've avoided that for the most part. There has been one instance, but I've avoided it for the most part. And I said I want to get political because I think there is a lot of dissension that's going around that creates more divide, and people are a lot of times unwilling to find compromise. Now, I think as someone with a mixed background, as a child, as a product of divorce, and still lives in the Middle east and the experience of that come along with that, and being raised with multiple languages, religious backgrounds, etc. I've sort of been forced to find compromise, whether I liked it or not. And I think that I don't see that enough globally anymore. I don't see that enough in communities, especially in the literary community. It's, you know, it's. It's my way or the highway or one way or the other. And I think it's really, really important to me to be able to sort of be able to discuss these things. But I find that a lot of people tend to be really unwilling, and I think that that's. That's a big part of that malaise, because I think if we're unwilling to work with one another and we're unwilling to find compromise, then, you know, we're just heading towards societal collapse. And I don't want to sound alarmist, but I think I have. I have a BSc in Sociology and I've loved Sociology since I was 14 and. And it's something that I've really capitalized on, including in the start of my master's. Now, I think that, you know, we're headed towards a lot of disruption because people are unwilling to work together and that malaise is just going to be accelerated.

It sounds like you didn't growing up because of the multiple cultures and maybe even identities that you were encountering within yourself and other people that you didn't even have the choice to, you know, dig your heels in any one spot, because it sounds like you didn't have like a spot. So you have a really unique and beautiful perspective on what it's like to be a human of the world and not just a human of a spot. That's really neat.

Thank you.

Let's talk a little bit about social media, because I know you have a social media background and I'm wondering, how does social media work in your life? And you've been successful at growing social media accounts for businesses, so maybe you could talk a little bit about that and we can kind of overlap that with the other idea of the malaise and the mixture.

Yeah, of course. So, you know, again, very unorthodox experience getting into social media as well. I volunteer for an Egyptian magazine called Milky Way, and I did their Twitter and I had a conversation with their founder. And I said, hey, you know, like, the literary world's on Twitter. Why are we only on Instagram? We found success there. I'm happy to do it. I need experience. I was like 19 and I was like, hey, let me do this. It was Covid. I was at home doing my bachelor's. It's like, I have time. And through that I learned a lot. I learned about things like sort of what people like in the literary world, sort of what colors attract people, sort of looking at analytics and, you know, making sure that I'm applying the best, you know, post times, et cetera, blah, blah, blah. But I think as I moved on, those volunteering experiences really helped me. I worked with Kissing Dynamite, which I believe is now defunct as well. And that was really good. I really enjoyed my experience doing social media for Kissing Dynamite because I also felt like I was valued by my boss. Even though it was volunteer work. I was really, really valued. I got a great reference. And then later on I worked for Lupitalia as well. And that was my first paid gig for social media, which was really cool. It was only a three month contract, but it was great. And then I just went on mostly to focus on my own journal and publishing how it's found me done and sort of really helping us grow more. I think social media is something that can be difficult. It can be quite difficult to manage because there's a lot of screen time and focus and trial and error that accompanies it. But I definitely think for me as a writer, I learned my lessons after like the first two collections like chapbooks and like the novel. And so I was able to market my third chapbook half read so much more as a result. So I do think in a lot of ways it's helped me be a bit more sellable as a writer and like, reach more people as well.

Can you talk specifically about what you did that you believe made your efforts successful?

Well, in terms of, of, you know, getting more outreach for half bread, I think it was really being more visible, being more active, and I think that's really the base of any, of any social media work. But it was being more visible in ways that worked. It was, you know, being willing to, you know, read my writing out, be more willing to engage, you know, push for interviews, push for reviews, engage with people on social media, link my stuff more, make ads. I made loads of Canva ads. I think at one point I was spending like a couple hours of week just shelling out loads and loads of ads and you know, and trying to do extra different things to like, sort of link back to the cultural elements within the collection. So I definitely think it's just about putting in the hard work and effort. And I know that sounds really, like, easier said than done, but you have to trial and error so much to be successful in social media, so I definitely think those areas helped. Like I can say, though, I have not made very much at all for my literary career. Half Bright actually did make, I think, like $200 or something, which was, which was great. It was a lot, you know, for a chat book. I was really happy with that.

So, yeah, it's also exciting to know that it's out there and getting read. It sounds like one of your key points would be consistency if you were going to suggest to an author, just be consistent, go out and post regularly. When you were engaging, were you commenting on other people's posts or reposting their things? How did you do the engagement?

Yeah, I'm like, look, I think it's really important to engage with the community now as much as I'm very frustrated with a lot of community areas in the literary world right now. Deeply, deeply frustrated by a lot of things that have been happening. But I definitely think that for me, it's important to set a. An example. And it's the same way that, you know, my own press and journal, you know, the journal, you know, there was a big thing about ageism recently and about, you know, would your journal publish older people? And I thought that was so ironic because we've never factored in age. In our. In our issue 17, which is. Which was our first paid issue ever, which was in March, I think we had like two or three writers over 70, all fantastic ladies who wrote some amazing things. And then in this issue, we had writers ranging from their early 20s all the way up to their 70s as well. And I think that, yeah, I feel like you have to engage with the community so you can understand not only what people. People want to read, but also how you can be a better literary citizen. Even though that word sounds a bit cliche, that phrase.

But yeah, how do you think a person could select which platform they were going to use if they were just getting started with social media? And they're like, I don't know where to start. How could they decide?

Well, TikTok is great if you have really commercially sellable poetry. And there's nothing wrong with that. I definitely personally feel that the writer, most of the writers I know myself, we write more like philosophical, ramblings, like, you know, and, you know, more ideologically based writing. But there's a lot of poetry out there, especially pop culture poetry and pop culture writing in general that sells really well through TikTok. And I definitely think that there's a great market for especially younger audiences who are into more of those pop culture influences to find sort of, you know, they're following on TikTok. But Twitter is the way forward, I think, for a traditional sort of literary presence or X. Excuse me. I definitely think that, yeah, it's the way that I think I've been able to become more seen.

Why do you think that Twitter, now, X is such the constant with the literary community? Why that platform?

I think it's because in the early days of this sort of community forming online, it was just more approachable. I think that's. That's the truth. I think Twitter is. Is a lot easier. X, you know, is. It's just. It's a lot easier to manage because I think Instagram has certain different elements that can make things a little more complex. And I also feel like TikTok, you know, is a lot of physical engagement. You know what I mean? Like, people want to see your face, people want to interact with you more. Whereas on Twitter someone can quickly tweet out a random thought they're having and, you know, it's out.

So, yeah, I wonder if it's also because Twitter doesn't or X, it does not require a photo, but obviously Instagram does and TikTok does.

Yes, yes. I think that that's a big thing as well, I think. But at the same time, the literary world thrives off of ads made on Canva and photos and things like that because they're catchy and they're flashy. So I think it's complex.

But yeah, yeah, I think that TikTok has become a surprising element in the literary community. That is not.

I agree.

Yeah. And I think it. To me, it looked like it happened suddenly, but it probably. I don't know. Do you think it happened suddenly, like in the space of about six to eight months, all of a sudden that. Or am I just seeing it wrong?

I think it did. No, I think it did. I think it's, you know, I think the whole, you know, Twitter potentially getting shut down or X. Sorry, that's going to be tough to fully. You know, in my mind, I surf for a lot of people. But yeah, I definitely think that, you know, X, the potential for getting shut down, the Elon Musk takeover, etc, you know, people were very like skittish about whether they should stay on there. A lot of people moved to Threads or even Facebook, which I think has been interesting to me because I had a boss at the now defunct as well. Fake kidding. Lisa Ray, who used to always say to me like, you know, you need to get on Facebook, you should do Facebook. She would say this non stop to me and I think I only valued in the last year and she was so right. So Khaleesi, if you're listening to this, you were right. I think for writers over like 35ish, there's a massive community out there. I mean they're like literary Pages with like 30,000 followers and like submission opportunity pages. Like it's absolutely insane how many people are on Facebook. I didn't expect this, you know what I mean? So I definitely think that it's also very much about sort of the age group groups and you know, the demographics and things like that.

So. Yeah, yeah, that's. It's fascinating and as you said, it is really complex. It'll be interesting to see where it goes in the next couple years, even from where it is. Yeah, you mentioned some editorial experience. Let's talk about that. How does that inform your own creative writing?

Well, I have had a mixed bag of editorial experience. I've had some really good experiences where I've worked. I've had some less good experiences. That's what I'll say. I think that it's informed me in a few ways A, it's taught me to have a lot more empathy and understanding people and writers. It's also taught me about sort of the stuff that, that people want to read and how they want to read it. But it's also taught me a little bit about really the ways in which the community works and sort of the different sort of trends in terms of things like word economy, metaphor usage, you know, the sort of sentiment, you know, going back to like that malaise aspect, for example, the general sentiment that different people feel, etc. I definitely think my editorial experience has been more about giving back to the community. But I also feel that it's informed my own writing because I feel that I learned by reading other people's work and having to be critical, having to write like editorial feedback or reader feedback and really work to understand their authorial intent. So personally, I think my editorial experiences has predominantly being good. But what I will say is I've learned that there is an absence of a lot of ethical practices in the literary community. And I'm making sure that at FAHMIDAN you know, we. We keep things as transparent as possible. You know, I mean, I just met with my staff. Well, some of them turned up. A lot of them were busy at the timing. But we discussed, you know, for example, our finances, how much we've been making, you know, where we're in the green, where we're in the red, how are we putting that money to use? You know, being an editor at a variety of places has taught me about, in some ways, the way I want to do things and in a lot of ways as well, how I don't want to do things. So I'm really grateful for those experiences.

What are a couple of things that, you know, you don't want to do?

Oh my, there's so many. But I'll leave it to two or three. One thing is transparency. A big thing is transparency and being honest. And not one place I worked at was. I'm absolutely obsessed with editorial style and like setting a house style of the way that. And like insisting on edits, like incessant edits for no reason. And I think, you know, b, I respect myself at Fahmidan. You know, most of them are volunteer. I pay out of pocket right now for some of the two staff that we pay. Our managing editor and our poetry editor. And I think for me it's just about valuing people. It's not just about the finances. It's about like, you know, are you communicating? Are you, are you being honest? Are you sharing details with people? Are you just making decisions randomly? Or are you, you know, do you want a team or do you want a single enter? Like, you know, a singular editor running everything with a bunch of people? Do we work without any remuneration? You know, I think another aspect for me is I don't believe in penalizing people for challenging my opinions. And that's a very big thing I've experienced, especially as a. As a 23 year old. Despite my publication history and my experience, I'm often talked down to a lot by predominantly older American male editors. And I don't understand why. I love working with women because female editors know where it's at. You know, there's that mutual respect. And that's why Fahmidan is. We've always had a majority female editorial staff. I think that the experiences I've had have been really tough because they've crystallized to me that there's a sort of, sort of power dynamic people develop. And I don't ever want that. I want people to feel comfortable, to dispute with me and to Give me their opinions and I'm going to listen and try to do what I can to sort of meet them at least halfway, if not be won over by what they're saying. So, yeah.

Are some of these issues you're talking about editorial decisions about which pieces to accept and which ones not to accept?

A little bit. But I would say it's more about communication and hostile work environments and over criticism and just making editors feel really like they're working isn't valued. And I think that, you know, there's a really fine line because a lot of what the literary world does is very much volunteer based. There just isn't a lot of money in the community, you know, But I think treating people with respect, especially people who've spent years as part of their team or have, you know, willingly donated a lot of time and effort, you know, I think is a good start.

One of the things I'm thinking about listening to you is how when you meet a writer, it's always amazing how much they know. And every writer knows about a bunch of different stuff that the other writer next to them may not know because we've all had such different experiences. And so I've learned over time, you just never underestimate what somebody knows because they probably know a whole ton of cool, interesting things.

Of course. Yeah.

And so to devalue someone, even without asking them any questions or digging in to find out where their perspective is coming from, I could see how that would be a really disheartening experience. Because when you're there as a volunteer or a low paid person, which is also a volunteer, what you want most is to contribute and to be part of the community in a positive, successful way.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Awesome. Well, it's been great talking to you. I could keep talking about this for another half an hour, but sadly we got to close it out. So if people want to find you online, where is a good place for them to come find you?

You can find me on Twitter or Instagram with the same name. It's Arthur Reiger. I'm also on TikTok as well.

All right, awesome. Well, we'll be sure to include those links in the show notes so that people can come and find you. Thanks a lot for joining me today. It's been great talking to you.

Thank you so much, Melissa. It's been a pleasure. Thank.

Thanks for stopping by the audio Town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been Washington Square on air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc.edu.wsl. writing is messy, but do it anyway.