Welcome to another episode of Turning the Table,

sponsored by Benchmark 60.

My name is Adam Lamb and I'm a career coach for chefs and

hospitality professionals.

And I'd like to introduce my co-host Jim Taylor of Benchmark 60.

How you doing, Adam?

Good to to

see you.

Great to see you.

This is episode one 14.

The restaurant industry as an instant gratification feedback loop, and

this is our monthly back of the house check-in episode because after all, you

can't turn the table without everybody doing their part to make that happen.

And yeah.

Jim, I think I kind of screwed up with the title of this show,

, because it's kind of, I, I think ambiguous about what the intent was.

So before we bring in our guest I wanted to kind of ask

you one particular question.

So, You know, I've had this suspicion based upon my own experience

that my career has acted as an instant feedback loop for me for

instant gratification, meaning.

So it was a way for me to get this good feeling anytime I needed it by virtue of

the fact that, you know, it's an industry where for most of the most of service

staff, you know, you get paid every day, cash, money out, walking out the door.

You put a great plate in the window and it kind of fills your heart

because you know that that's fantastic.

Plus the feedback that you're getting.

Constantly throughout the night, a good or bad . Yeah.

Yeah.

And and I'm just curious because I didn't wanna make this kind of a, a

universal experience, but I'm curious to know if you've ever had that that

same feeling in so far as like using your career as a way to make yourself

feel good either in the moment or, you know, maybe when things aren't going so.

Oh, absolutely.

I think there's, there's hundreds of examples that we

could probably come up with.

I mean, put the good, put the perfect looking dish in the, in

the window, You know, recommend the perfect entree to a customer.

Get a great tip.

You're the manager of the place.

You're hosting the party every night.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, you're the cool kid in the in town.

I mean, it's, You're the cool kid.

It's true.

Right?

I mean, I can speak from experience on that.

You host you, you open up cool new restaurant in town and everybody

wants to know who you are.

I mean, there's.

, it's a popularity contest in one way or another in that sense, right.

There's so many examples of that.

It doesn't have to just be the cash every day side of things.

Mm-hmm.

, it's, you know, there's, it's a lot different, I think, than the experience

that people get sitting in a cubicle where, you know, once a month they have

a little performance review or something.

It, it, it happens every 10 minutes in

restaurants.

Yeah.

A very good friend of mine who's.

Who's gone on to have a very fruitful career and is now an executive

chef at one of the biggest hospitals in Hawaii, You know, started his

career in Chicago and where I met him and , he was such a freak.

He was so good.

And he took it like not seriously at all.

Like, Dude, what are you doing?

Like, you could really do this Chef James Shirley.

And in a podcast episode, he goes on this little rant saying,

you know, at work you could be.

The hero.

And then at the end of the shift, you're taken an L home by yourself to

a crappy little apartment and da da da.

And that kind of spur a thought at me, like, Okay, so why wouldn't you wanna

spend all your time at work , Right?

Yeah.

Cause that's where you feel good.

And, and there's more to get into this.

And we have no idea just to put it out there.

We have no idea where this is gonna go.

And we don't wanna make anybody wrong because this show was establi.

About solutions, and yet you can't really talk about a solution until you're

really clear about what the problem is.

So to that point, I want to bring in our good friend culinary

coach Simon z Turka, who's joining us from we Pacific Coast,

right?

Yeah, yeah.

Seattle.

Seattle.

Good

morning, gentlemen.

Gloomy, is it, is it gloomy out there, man?

Let's see, one window has got clouds and the other one's got sun.

So sorta

I, old man

, Jim Taylor: It's

Seattle.

Like you never know what's gonna happen.

Just wait a second.

Right.

So if we, So there's a couple different ways that we could language

this and I don't wanna muddle it.

I want to be as clear as possible.

So I guess I wanna start with the question, which is, Thanks to

organizations like the Bern Chef Project not nine to five, and several

others that deserve to be named.

There has been a concerted effort to study the hospitality industry in regards

to things like mental health crisis, substance abuse, because prior to almost

just five years ago, nobody gave a shit.

I.

Sure people gave a shit, but nobody could actually quantify

the problem because nobody was given money to study the problem.

And if you can't quantify it, you can't study it.

So these organizations have gone done amazing work to put

together all these surveys.

And again, it comes back to this truth that I think all of us know

inherently, which is the hospitality industry has one of the highest

incidents of substance abuse addiction.

Sorry.

Yeah, it's a challenging industry,

suicide front and center, and just thinking about all the

friends I've lost in my career.

And so why do you think that is?

I Why do you think that there is such a high incidence of these experiences?

In this career field, Chef, Man, that,

that's such a big question.

But here, here, I'll, I'll dive off with this.

I, I was a 19 year old college student that dropped outta college to hang out

with a merry band of misfits every night.

, I mean, come on.

It's, it's community in the best and worst way, right?

You're, you're like slinging, you know, 400, 500 steaks a night.

And then at the end of the night someone says, Hey, let's go have a beer.

And one beer becomes 10 and God only knows what else is happening.

Sure.

But it's, but it's fun and it's great.

And, and let's go back to like the instant gratification of and, and feedback.

Hello Adrenaline.

How.

Right, Right.

Like, this is just boom, boom, boom.

This is great.

I mean, are you kidding?

I, I, I literally dropped outta school a cook so that I

could like, feel that every day

Yeah.

You know, and then, and then found that like, I had a, I had a group

that like, you know, that were like, Hey, let's go hang out.

Let's go do stuff.

You know, not really pulling back the curtain for a number of.

But that's, that for me is like the, the, the gateway to it.

All people start to they, they have community that, but they also have like

, I guess the, the anti community, right?

Like the, the things that can go dark.

I, I think it's prevalent.

You know, I think it, it happens a lot, folks.

They get into something and, and then, you know, the next thing

you know, you're into other stuff.

I, I think that, oh, it's just, it's just such an easy thing

to, to slide off the edge of.

So do you think that for a certain portion of us, our community, that

that they're already kind of prewired for that type of behavior, given the fact

that, you know, all of a sudden you've got this great feeling all night long,

and then at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock you punch out and you're supposed to go.

And that's it.

Like, I mean, is there something about us that kind of drew us

to this industry because that's what we needed in our lives?

I, I think that, I definitely think

there's that aspect, you know?

But I also think that it's, it's you know, chefs who are, who

are pushing people hard, right?

And so you, you want that, you want a.

I mean, I worked for a chef in LA and on his wall it said, You are only as

good as the last plate you served.

Right?

That's pressure to, to keep up with.

So I think that yes, there's some prewired ness, , I guess if that's a word.

But also it's a, it's a culture of like pushing people hard and at some

point something's gotta get right.

And I.

I think I've seen some change in culture over the years.

You know, I'd like to believe that, that that some people have seen

the, the harmfulness of all that and, and are able to go, Gosh, we

should be a little bit less chaotic.

Right?

We should start to hone, hone reign things in, I mean, myself, I, for me it was, it

was like finding some organization in the.

Sure.

I mean, that's, that's how I, I, I swear to you like I, I started

to manage my way out of the chaos.

You know, I got tired of going to work and working for super talented

chefs who had these amazing ideas, but could not get things together.

You know?

I started just going, Hey, let's make.

You know, like, let's, let's have series of lists and like, let's, let's

be organized and let's get planned.

That's how I worked my way out of the chaos.

But it's not, you know, it, it takes, it takes some time and effort.

Jim do you wanna speak to that question because I'm interested

in your insight in regards to why do you think that there are such

high levels of emotional dysfunction.

Yeah.

In, in our industry,

well, that, that concept of prewired for instant gratification, I

don't know if it's prewired for instant gratification, but it's, it's definitely

in countless cases that you know that I can both personally and with friends.

It's definitely prewired.

I mean, think about the people that the industry hires or looks for.

Mm.

It's outgoing, social, fun, competitive.

You know, and I think the, for me personally, the two that probably stood

out the most, that both helped me be really successful in restaurants and

also put me in some probably not ideal situations, were social and competitive.

Right?

The social scenario.

I get hired at a new restaurant when I'm, you know what Simon just

mentioned about dropping a univer.

I did the same thing.

I was, you know, getting ready to pursue a degree or something, got a

job because my high school grad date was working at the, the restaurant.

She said, Hey, come work here.

It's full of cool, fun people.

Right.

And I stayed for 20 years.

Yeah.

But you know, I think the social side of it was I wanted to fit in.

I wanted to be involved, I wanted to be invited.

I wanted to be, And if that, going to the bar after the shift, or if that

meant going to a house party after the shift, or if that meant going to the

bar cooler after the shift I was in.

Right, Right.

And so for me that that's part of it.

And the competitive side of it.

I mean, in my experience, and I know a lot of people, front house and backup hosts

can, would probably say the same thing.

You put someone in a social situation where they're getting invited to do

things and they're a competitive person.

You know, look out

. Adam Lamb: You know, it's interesting

of personality profile because I experienced this over the weekend.

I, I spent last weekend in Nashville at a huge convention hotel.

I had never been there before and I went to go get breakfast and there was

this young lady at the, at the host or host station and very demure her

shoulders are, B, you know, she's almost trying to hide herself from a physical

standpoint and, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't look me in the eye, you

know, like, one for breakfast, please,

And as I'm sitting there.

Enjoying my lovely buffet, hotel, buffet breakfast as they always are.

right about nine 30 while the eggs are starting to harden.

I see another hostess who's obviously coming on for the, for

the day shift and she is bubbly and smiling and talking to everybody.

And I thought to myself you know, maybe there's just, maybe

she's the right person, but she's in the wrong position, right?

Like, again, as, and the question this has come up for me is, As

leaders in the hashtag new hospitality culture, understanding post covid

that this, everything's changed.

You know, do we have any any responsibility ethically or

morally to support our staff?

to make good choices for themselves, right?

There's one thing to teach them, the skillset to do the job, and then you know

what's going on in, in the store room, , you know, after a certain point of time

or in the staff bathroom or whatever, because at one point I was there, right?

So do we have any responsibility morally or ethically to mentor that

portion of their personality and assist them to become mature professionals?

So, It's not so much the instant gratification, but to start to

understand that really the trick is delaying gratification, putting in the

work in order to reap bigger rewards.

Is that kind of, I guess that's the crux of it for me, chef.

I

think absolutely.

We do.

I mean for me, the, the hospitality industry, the restaurant

industry, the kitchens, whatever, whatever aspect or, or arena.

It was, it has always been for me, and it will probably always be community, right?

It's, it's a group again, Man to Mary Misfits.

But that, which sounds cute and fun and it's Peter Pan, but at the same

time, it's like a group of people that have gotta go in and, and do a job.

And if, if they're all linked of mine and, and are able to, to focus,

then like things get better, right?

Like at the end of the day, if we're all honest, it's all, it's

about making a little more money.

And so I think.

If so, if a youngster who's going down a path that isn't great can,

can get a little like shoulder and, and grab and back into the

fold, like they're gonna do better.

They're gonna, they're gonna progress.

It's, it's they're gonna, they're gonna hopefully make their team a little

bit better, which is gonna make the restaurant a little bit better, which

gonna make the owner a little more money.

And then we're all gonna keep kind of flourishing and then people start to move

on in their career and understand that we all have to take care, care of each.

Right.

It isn't just the.

, You know, I, it's not just, Oh, me, me, me, me.

It's gotta, there's gotta be some, some, some hugs and some

shoulders kind of pull people in.

Sure.

Yeah.

But to your point, it wasn't that long ago when you were in a kitchen

and there was a sign on the wall that said you know, you're nothing.

Right.

You're only as good as your last dish.

Well, what the hell does that mean about me and the present moment, , Right.

So there's this kind of, and I know this is gonna get tricky, man.

It seems to me that as the dinosaurs in the, in the group that there's a

generational question that that needs to be answered if we're gonna be effective.

And when I mean effective, I mean like be truly great leaders and,

you know, be there for our staff.

Because I think the only measure of your, of your performance is how

many leaders have you created, you know, helped to create.

So Yeah, The,

the moral and ethic thing, I mean, I think we have

a mentor maturity for sure.

I mean, I, I think the way, and Adam, you and I have talked lot about this in the

past, is the, I think the way that I view it is, is actually more about protecting

people that work in our industry from.

Things that we all know exist in it.

Right.

You know, and I think whether that's, you know, I'm not a wage lobbyist,

but whether that's paying people more so they don't have to work 60 hours

a week and burn out and then, you know, find ways to, to hide from that.

Whether that's providing, you know, different types of benefit or education

or you all these different things.

Because if we don't do.

Then someone's going to either a government, another industry, another

company is gonna provide for people in a way that maybe, you know, some,

some people in our industry just don't believe it should be provided.

So I think it's more about protecting the people that, that are gonna

be the future of our industry.

That's something that I, I mean, Adam and I have talked about that.

That's something that I believe really, really strongly in.

Right.

Chef Tiffany Jeffries is chiming in to say we absolutely

have more responsibility to help younger slash newer cooks navigate the

potential pitfalls and pigeon holes we know may insure them or snare them.

And thank you for that comment.

And yet I know from my own experience from being the youngling to.

Trying to mentor other young ones that sometimes, man, you

just can't tell anybody shit.

Right?

Because they know . I'm thinking specifically of two guys who I knew

at a same resort, sharpest edges in the drawer by far the most talented and with

the most potential, and they had been.

You know, either fed a line of crap or had been listening

to their own press releases.

But my advice at that time completely fell on deaf ears, and they both got bounced

out for, for various, for various things.

, the funny part of that is 15 years later, I'm actually coaching a mentoring

one . Which for me has been an amazing experience and I'm very grateful for that.

But I know at the moment, sometimes people just don't wanna listen.

Jeff, have you ever had that experience of like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Chef.

I got it.

I got it.

It'd be good, man.

I'll be good.

Yeah.

I, I don't have enough fingers to that man.

, you know, I mean, it's something about horses and water.

I mean, you can, you can take 'em down the line.

You, you just gotta keep giant, you know?

I, I think that, I think that, you know Somebody once said, you know, man,

as the chef, that's such a great job.

I'm like, Yeah, it can be great.

But I think that it's, it's a certain amount of modeling, like the, the

benefits, the advantages, you know, it's gotta look like a good job.

Cause otherwise, otherwise, folks, they start to get lost.

You know, They gotta, they gotta have something to aspire to.

So I think for me it's, it's,

it's, some of it is, you know, good role modeling

and being.

, you know?

Hmm.

Cuz I think if you, you can say anything you want and sometimes

they listen, sometimes they don't.

I mean, I had one guy who, like, I gave him the advice and he, he went off and

he did something and about six months later he comes back to me and he goes,

You said A, B, and C were gonna happen.

And.

God, A, B, and C happen.

And he goes, I'm gonna listen to you from now, . You know,

I get lucky once in a while.

Right.

But it's just one of those things like,

I guess, yeah,

they're not always gonna listen, but I think that

if we, if we do our best every

day, then you just gotta hope,

I guess.

You know, you gotta hope you're, you're, you're modeling

the right thing, I guess ethically then I would then

I would say listening to you.

We definitely have a responsibility to, to coach and mentor leadership

mature professionalism regardless of what the outcome is because

the other side of that is at some point in their career, something's

gonna happen to trigger a memory.

They'll go, Well wait a second.

Where else did I hear that?

Because I've had lots of guys come back and go, or not guys,

but lots of chefs that have.

Associates that have gone on and become chefs come back and

say, You know what, Chef, At the time I didn't, I didn't get it.

I didn't understand what you were saying, but now I get it.

And Jim, the reason I'm bringing this up is because there still seems

to be some folks out there who are unclear on the concept that this is

a new, this is a new dynamic in our operations in which we get to invest.

Both from a time standpoint and an emotional contract with our associates.

Way different than what it used to be.

Right.

Because it's chef related, you know, you're coming in there to, you know,

either keep moving mission forward or you're, you know, you're either

on our bus or you're out walking and there're that was it cut and dry?

Yeah.

And now it's.

And it's sure some things forced our hand, right?

Staff retention lots of people leaving in the industry, but I gotta think,

man, at some point like this should have been our responsibility all along.

Totally.

It's, and, and it's, I don't know.

It, it's not, it's not our responsibility to do it, but if we want the industry

to continue to thrive in any way at all, we'd better do something.

Yeah, I think I got, there's gonna be operators and there's gonna be people in

our industry and that's that, that don't think that need, things need to change.

And that's, that's fine.

They'll do, They'll be on their path and they'll do their thing.

Right.

But you know, the, speaking about the, the labor shortage, for

example, I actually personally, and this one's created a little bit of

controversy in the past, and you and I have had a good laugh about this.

Adam Simon, I don't know if you and I have talked about this one,

but I actually don't think that there's a labor shortage at all.

There's a retention shortage.

Yeah.

Because for the last 40 years or maybe longer, you're only

as good as your last plate.

Well, your last plate wasn't good.

See you later.

Someone else will take your spot tomorrow.

Correct.

Right.

Whether we forced them out or they forced them or they leave on

their own, the turnover rate of 110% or whatever it was annually,

I mean, That's always been there.

Well now there's no one to take their spots.

So if we don't look at it differently in terms of how to retain people, mentor

people, help people, you know, actually put them in a position where they can be

successful, I mean, I don't know what that leads to other than a lot of challenges.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't, not even quite sure if that needs follow up

because it's pretty succinct, right?

Because everybody wants to make it up about one thing, but it's really,

you know, and thank goodness, right?

Thank goodness that we're in a position where if we're a mature

professional, we have the capacity to be in, in, in the inquiry, step

back and actually take a look at it without taking it as a personal.

Right at that it's Oh me or whatever.

Thank goodness that we're at a point where there are operators and, and folks

like, you know, Jim, Simon, myself.

We're gonna have a couple more here in the next couple weeks,

which is gonna be amazing.

Coming on the show, who, if they're not of the same mind, they're

headed in the same direction which is our culture gets to be.

A sustainability, equity and inclusiveness.

And for a long time it hasn't been.

So because we're a solution based show and someone's gonna go walking back into their

organization and whether or not they're pissed off at, at who's showing up or not.

Chef, what's, what's one thing that they can do to at least try

to create a shift in their current culture such that their staff really.

That they give a shit about 'em.

I mean, I, I think the

number one thing is the big C, right?

Like communicate, you know, check, check in.

You know, for, for me, it goes back to communicating community, right?

Like, check in with your people and make sure that they're okay.

I think that if everybody is, is, is kind of in the fold, they're, they're

likely to be, to feel like they have a.

To, to be, you know, they place where they can learn, where they

can continue to grow, where they can make their paycheck safely.

You know, I think that's a, a lot of it, but I think it's

just really about good com,

good, healthy, respectful

communication.

I, I love that you just throw that safety thing out there of kind

of like, it's a throwaway line.

Like say, Yeah, , you know, Well listen, in a world.

Where the last three years has not been safe for anybody, right?

I mean, when are we actually gonna get like, Oh my god.

Yeah.

Safety.

That is a thing.

Like not only physical safety, but emotional safety.

And I'm not necessarily talking about, you know, patting them on the button,

telling 'em how, how special they are, but, you know, treating everybody

fairly with a, with a firm set of standards that everybody can look to in

order to gauge their own performance.

Right.

And Jim, I, we talked about this before getting on the show, and I just wanna make

sure that our listeners and yours know that this is not a generational question.

Okay?

Because everybody said the same shit about the boomers.

Everybody said the same shit about, you know, Gen Xers the

millennials, the gen sees.

I got a prompt in my email box to submit a post to LinkedIn about how to,

let me see if I can read this correctly.

Something about how to, how, how to support Gen Zs in building skill sets.

And I'm like, like, why is that?

Like, why is that even a question anyway?

And.

I ask you, Jim, because I know that you're kind of the master of the undersell, and I

think that that works really, really well.

No, no, no, no.

I'm, listen, I, I mean this, I mean this, I mean this as a, as a compliment because

your way of being is such that being calm and understated, especially in an

environment like this where there's so much at risk that one of the reasons

I got so emotional at the top of the show was, you know, this just, just.

Sorry, I've been sick for a couple days.

I'm a little emotional . Okay.

You know, this industry's been amazing for me.

I love it.

I love it.

Love it, love it, love it.

And I wanna see it continue.

Mm-hmm.

and I wanna see it get better and I wanna see it, you know, I want everybody back

in the pool because Simon, to your point, it's safe and the water's just fine.

But they're not going to based upon our ways of being, I put our arms

around all of us and said, Yeah, man, we, we created this situation.

So it's up to us to solve it.

So Jim, for someone walking back in their operation after, you know, this

little hashtag lunchbox live stream and they're look scratching their head

like, How the hell am I gonna do this?

Mm-hmm.

, like, how would they take one step towards creating a more cohesive

environment for their staff so that they know that they're cared for and

that this is the place for them to be?

Cuz it's not about money.

. Yeah.

Well, so I, I mean there's, first of all, I think what Simon said

about community and and communication is, I mean, he's, you are bang on Simon.

I mean, that's totally talk to people, right.

Check in.

A few of us that, a few of my former colleagues and I used to have this kind

of running joke, but not really a joke.

And that was that when you step on shift, whether you're the chef, the

sous chef, the manager, Gm, the bar manager, the district manager, whoever

it was, it's someone of responsibility.

The kind of the running thing was that we actually used to ask each other,

Have you put on your cape yet ? You know, if someone was having an off

day or, you know, someone was acting a little off, you know, Hey, did you

forget to put your cape on today?

Because, and this is a cheesy sort of thing, right?

But the, the, the idea was you have to look for opportunities

to be somebody's hero when they come to work in your environment.

And so that's the cheesy version of it.

But I think, you know, we were, One of the things that I liked that we were

talking about earlier before the show was that, you know, the generational

side of things and all the stuff that's going on in our industry right now,

it's, it's nobody's fault, right?

That this stuff's happening.

It's, you know, Gen X was an issue, millennial was an issue.

You know, Gen Z is, is now being called at issue and it's not their fault.

It's just that our industry doesn't know how to deal with it yet.

So, I guess my, my advice and if I was still operating restaurants, I'd

go into the weekend thinking about, I'm gonna just try and come up with

one way to help make those people, you know, feel better at work every day.

Enjoy the job better, protect their experience, support them,

whatever it is that I could do.

Cause it's not their fault.

They're, it's nobody's fault.

Right.

And in doing research for this particular episode, I came across

a new tab that I didn't see before at the Burn Chef Project.

So they partnered with this organization called People Full, Please to Announce

it has partnered with people full to offer a powerful data insight tool

designed for the first time to show you where your biggest fires are in terms

of health, culture, and wellbeing, and accurately demonstrate the costs

associated by not addressing these areas.

So, People.

So they answer two fundamental questions.

How psychologically fit are my people?

Can they perform at their best?

And is our working environment designed to support excellent performance?

And for those of you who are interested in this, I'm gonna make sure that the

link is in the show notes because you can book a free demo and any tool

that you can deploy to make sure or towards the end of like making sure

that you have a cohesive, supportive.

I think is powerful because we all have blind spots.

Right.

And so before we leave, I just wanted to say thank you so much for Jemiah,

Aaron Fish, Chef Tiffany and all the other listeners who supported

us by by checking out the livestream and you know, throwing their 2

cents in with a chat because it helps Des spice up the conversation.

Chef Simon.

How can people get ahold of you?

Because we never, like we launched right into this.

I didn't do an intro for you or anything, man, so I apologize.

I mean, LinkedIn's pretty easy.

But to spell, my last name is Z A t Y L R K A.

The other one is my new website and it is www.culinarymechanic.com.

There you go.

Culinary mechanic.

I love that brother.

Nice.

Yeah, I'm trying to tear it apart and put it back together faster and smoother.

Don't we know that?

Don't get paralyzed by the analysis.

My brother, some, you know, done is better than perfect from what I understand.

Someone told me that.

Yep.

Jim, any final words for us?

I, I don't know, man.

There, there's, there's a lot going on in my mind right now.

Right.

But I think just the, there's some loud and clear message from our conversation

today, and that's just, we gotta take good care of the people working in

our industry if we want them to stay

so, And that's why I'm so tickled, you know, every week to be

in this conversation with you because Benchmark 60 does have one of the most

unique systems out there that has been shown to be wildly effective.

And for more information about that, all you need to do is check out the

show notes, all the links will be there.

Thanks very much everybody.

We could be doing this for another hour, but we respect your lunch break and you

gotta get your ass back to the shop.

So thank you very much.

Really appreciate your.