Heather Shannon (00:19.646)

If you're turned on by cuckolding and you're in a committed relationship, you're probably holding a strange mix of emotions, excitement, curiosity, shame, and a little bit of fear. Because once you bring something like this into your actual day-to-day relationship, it's not just a fantasy anymore. So it becomes a conversation with a whole other human who has their own set of thoughts and emotions.

And you don't want that conversation to create distance or awkwardness or insecurity. You want to handle it well.

Ahem.

Heather Shannon (01:01.569)

Ahem.

Heather Shannon (01:06.392)

So if you have a cuckolding kink and you're trying to figure out how to navigate it with your partner in a grounded, mature way, this is the episode for you. So I'm currently working with multiple couples navigating cuckolding and cuckqueen dynamics. So I've seen this process lead to deeper honesty, feeling emotionally closer than ever, having more sexual confidence. And I've also seen people...

stay stuck in the shame and discomfort and not even share it with their partner. And it just kind of like eats them up inside on a day to day basis. So the kink itself is not the deciding factor. Your ability to understand the kink, to relate to it well, and to communicate is what determines whether this becomes a bonding experience or destabilizing experience for you and your relationship. So in this episode, we're going to talk about what might actually be driving the kink.

how to get comfortable with it yourself and how to bring it into your relationship in a way that reduces stress instead of increasing it. Okay, so let's start with what is cuckolding exactly and what's it all about? So it can have multiple layers to it. There can be, I guess the definition of the act itself just in case people listening don't know, but it's basically historically where there's a husband and a wife.

And the wife is having sex with people outside of the marriage and a man is considered a cuckold when he's raising another man's child and doesn't even know it. So there's kind of this element of he's being played the fool, right? Like she got pregnant by someone else and now he's putting all his time and energy into this kid who isn't even his. We won't even get into the layers of problems with these assumptions and why it's a bad thing because I think that's probably a really nice thing. But anyways.

That's where cuckold kind of originated. So when we're bringing it into the kink realm, it's different because there's consent involved or there should be consent involved. Where if it's a male female couple, the male partner is consenting. He likes being in this role. He's getting off being in this role, seeing his wife with another man or hearing about her exploits with other men can be a turn on for him.

Heather Shannon (03:29.452)

And there can also be this process of reclaiming each other. Like, you went out and were sexual with someone else, and now I get to hear about it. Now we're going to have really hot sex. So not everyone does this kink in the exact same way, right? So there can be some people who are approaching it in a dynamic where there's a hot wife. So often, the husband in this scenario was the cuckold. The wife in this scenario was the hot wife. So a hot wife has sex with multiple men.

A cuckold is into his wife having sex with other men, but the term cuckold does have that power dynamic. So, when I explained the origin of the word, there's sort of the cuckold is submissive, right? The cuckold is somehow made to feel lesser in the situation. And in a kink dynamic, he's getting off on that. He's kind of liking feeling lesser, feeling submissive. And this can come from a few different places. So, it can come from

hey, maybe I have some insecurities, right, related to my ability to please my partner. Maybe I'm insecure about my penis size. Maybe I'm actually just really powerful and in charge day to day, and I just want to hit the off switch, you know? I just want to, like, be told what to do. Maybe there's an element of, you like getting in trouble or there's a part of you that feels, not good enough or a failure, and that part is normally banished.

but in this kink of cuckolding, that part can actually come out and play and actually have fun and be sort of rewarded and not banished. So there's a lot of psychological reasons why people might have this kink. And if you're not already familiar, this is actually a really popular kink. So there is a great book by Justin Lehmiller called Tell Me What You Want. And I forget what page it's on, but there's like this word cloud of all the different kinks people have and all the sexual fantasies people have.

And words are different sizes based on how popular they are. I think he surveyed like 4,000 plus people. And Cuckold is like number three. It is up there. And that book that came out a number of years ago, it's still very popular. And it's definitely one of the things that I tend to hear most about with my clients. And so for that reason, I wanted to do an episode about it. Now, another reason that someone might be into

Heather Shannon (05:53.602)

cuckolding is that they're celebrating their partner's sexual power. And I love this. Like I had a husband tell me recently, like, my wife's sexuality is so powerful, like her sexual energy is so powerful. And I think sometimes it can be hard to, it can be intimidating, but there's something about cuckolding that's sort of surrendering to that. like, yes, let's just like fully lean into how powerful her sexual energy is.

And it could be the sort of the treat, the excitement, the delight of like, wow, she's just like so uninhibited and wild and free, or she's so sexual that she can't be satisfied by just one man. And I also want to say as we're discussing this, this is not necessarily a gendered thing. The origins of this kink are gendered, right? But

You could be two women, you could be a couple of two men, you could be a triad. It doesn't matter. The idea here is the power exchange of it. So that's what I'm focused on today. There are a couple of variations. So if you're kind of like, I'm into some of what you're saying, Heather, but that's not exactly my kink. I do want to mention a couple other variations as well. So if someone just says like, yeah, we're into hot wifeing or I have a hot wife.

That is interesting because that was not necessarily a power dynamic, the hot wife in and of itself. If you're not having the cuckold part, it could just be a guy that's like, yeah, like I just said, I like my partner being super sexual. I think it's hot when she's with other guys. I don't feel submissive about it. I don't feel surrendered. It's just something that I think is sexy. And I also don't feel like, you know, she's being submissive and you're doing what I tell her to do. It's not really a power exchange. So that is one variation.

Then there's another variation that's called stag and vixen. Okay, and so in this one, even though the woman is having sex with other men, the stag or the man is sort of in charge. So he's more of a dominant guy who might be sort of like loaning out his submissive girlfriend to his buddies or something like that. So there's a very different power exchange, even though there's still the act of the woman having sex

Heather Shannon (08:17.11)

with other men. And then we have cuckolding, which is what we're going to focus on today. And so this one is the male being more submissive and being into sort of that power exchange, perhaps even like degradation or humiliation aspect. But so again, everyone's kind of different. But with cuckolding, there can also be an enjoyment of just being in that submissive headspace, right? Of like,

Yeah, like I like being put in the corner. Maybe you like getting in trouble. Maybe you like feeling naughty, right? A lot of what turns people on in general is things that feel against the rules, things that feel taboo. So again, this is not weird, right? Super common kink. I'm listing all these different psychological reasons why it might be appealing to you because I want you guys to be able to normalize it. I think if we're stuck on

this is so weird or I can't tell someone or, you know, I'm fucking up our relationship by having this kink. No, we're not going to do that. And and then the last thing that I want to mention is the kind of reclaiming sex afterwards, kind of being chosen. like, it's like, OK, you're the bad boy. being put in the corner. You have to sit out while she goes and plays with other people. But then afterwards, she comes back to you.

So there's this element of like, I'm the one she wants to come back to, right? And then that can actually feel very powerful. So there's so many different elements here. And this is why I wanted to cover this topic because it's really nuanced. It's really layered. By the way, if you hear any noises in the background, it's my kitten trying to break into my podcast room. All right, section two, getting comfortable with it yourself.

So as you're going to navigate this with a partner, if you're going into conversations feeling uncomfortable or like you're kind of at war with yourself internally over this and just like all stressed out about it, if you feel embarrassed about it or like something is wrong with you or this is like a sin that you have to confess, that energy is going to leak into the conversation that you're having with your partner. And that's not going to set the kind of tone that we're wanting. Okay.

Heather Shannon (10:35.458)

So we're accepting this. This is maybe a little taboo, right? But that also makes it erotic. We are also recognizing that just because you have any kink or fantasy, whether it's cuckolding or something else, that doesn't mean that you or your partner are obligated to act on it. So this is something you can share with somebody without there being pressure to kind of make it a real life thing that you actually do.

I'm also going to encourage you to be curious about your kinks instead of judgmental. Because when we have that, whether it's a little bit or a lot of judgment, judgment actually blocks us from understanding things. And so this is why I have sort of a mindfulness lens when I'm working with my clients, because when we're just like, how interesting, I wonder where this came from. We're like, that's kind of cool that, you know, parts of me can experience pleasure.

that normally don't get to come out or, you oh, maybe this is actually a healthy thing for me as long as I'm kind of being secure in myself. That's important, right? When we have that perspective, think about how much better that's going to go as opposed to, oh my God, this is so weird. want to, you know, and often part of the cuckolding is wanting to see the woman you're in a relationship with, with maybe a man who who's often referred to as a bull.

who has a larger penis or has more sexual prowess or is just very virile, you know, that's often part of the fantasy. And it can also get racial. And I think that could be a whole other episode, but that's something to be aware of too. So a lot of times in the kink community, people will talk about a big black cock or big white cock, and that's something that can be fetishized. So.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of that, right? I know that there are some black guys that are proud and happy to be labeled that and love being in that bowl role. And I know there's also other black people that quit fetishizing people based on race. I also don't feel like we can make decisions for other grown ass adults. And I think the important thing is consent.

Heather Shannon (12:56.718)

Right? I think that communication and consent and an educated consent. So if that's part of the fantasy, I would just process that for yourself. That would be a good thing to process with a therapist or a coach, especially somebody who has a decolonizing lens. Okay, so the last piece is aside from being non-judgmental, just a reminder that this is super common. Okay. So

that many people, that many millions of people, perhaps billions, I don't even know, cannot be all that weird, right? It's just something that people don't talk about a ton, unless you have my job, in which case it feels oddly common. So keep listening to podcasts, keep reading, keep watching YouTube videos from experts in the field so that you can get to a point of normalizing. Just hearing it talked about

it will start to lose its charge, which I also think is interesting because then is it going to become like a little bit less exciting for you if it loses its charge? Maybe, but I don't think totally. I think there's a balance of what if you can normalize it, but it still has a little bit of that exciting taboo charge. I don't think it's going to fully lose that anytime soon. But I think if we can get off out of the shame of having the kink,

So there's like the shame inside the kink of like, ooh, I'm being put in the corner. I'm a bad boy. I don't get to have sex. I have to watch her with someone else. OK, there's that shame. that might feel erotic. But then there can also be another layer of shame of just like, I have this kink and that's weird or I'm judging myself about it. That's the one I think it might be nice to get rid of because that one doesn't really have any pleasure attached to it typically. So if you're looking to kind of do more work on this and get more comfortable with it yourself,

Again, get a good coach or a therapist, find somebody who can do parts work with you, who comes from an internal family system lens, work with a therapist, even just on cognitive behavioral therapy to notice your thoughts and change your story. Obviously, you're going to want to find a therapist who's sex positive that you can feel comfortable talking to about this. I would encourage you to specifically find somebody who is kink friendly or mentions kink.

Heather Shannon (15:17.278)

on their profile on directories or on their website or obviously on their podcasts. And then the other things you could try would be just journaling for yourself, right? Like writing out your thoughts, thinking about how do I want to feel about this? How do I want to think about this? You can try hypnosis and just get to a point where how do I accept my sexual self, right? Maybe you're like, I don't know how I developed this kink. Hopefully after listening to this, you're

getting some ideas. I do think there can often be early sexual experiences. There can even be medical issues that shape this, whether you were embarrassed when you first tried to kiss a girl when you were 12, or whether you had some kind of injury and weren't able to have sex a lot, or

Maybe someone cheated on you and you found it was hot and you're like, didn't know it was hot until that actually happened to me. Something where you're like, I'm not supposed to find this hot, but I kind of do. So it can come up in surprising ways and it can kind of be uncovered at any point in your life. None of that is inherently pathological. So that's my stance. Let's not over pathologize it. Now, if you want to be somebody who can kind of hold these complex desires,

inside a committed relationship without destabilizing the relationship. The next part is the skill that will make that possible. Okay, so let's talk about bringing it up in the relationship.

Heather Shannon (16:58.862)

Okay, cut this part out.

So first, check in with your own expectations of the conversation. So if you need or expect a certain type of response from your partner, you're setting yourself up for either anxiety going into it, and you're gonna be like a nervous wreck, or just disappointment with how the conversation goes. So what I would encourage is go and just open-minded. Go in knowing that this is a whole separate human that I'm gonna be sharing this with, and they're gonna have their own reaction

based on their own thoughts and beliefs that have nothing to do with you. So that would be my second tip. Open-minded is one. And then don't make it personal. Their response is not acceptance or rejection of you. Their response is based on their own thoughts and beliefs, how they were brought up, how comfortable they are with sex, how comfortable they are with breaking rules, right? Like that's what their reaction is going to be based on. And a lot of times, if they love you, which you know...

probably they do if you're bringing this up to them. you know, they might be like, okay, I don't totally get it yet. It's not something that probably is like my kink right now. But, you know, we can talk about it, I guess. And once you kind of let's talk about how to bring it up though, because that all that also matters. Lower the stakes, right?

Realize that however they react initially is often not their final conclusion on cuckolding. Start by stating your positive intention. This comes directly from the Gottman Institute that trains couples counselors. It's a relationship research institute, very well known. It's called the softened startup technique. The idea is they found that this prevents 90 percent of arguments. I highly recommend using this.

Heather Shannon (19:02.818)

So by stating your positive intention, you're doing a softened startup. You're not coming in like, my God, I have this thing to tell you, no, we're just gonna end our marriage and you know, like that energy is not gonna go great. Or, you know, if you come in and you're like, you you're not kinky enough, you're not open-minded, you're so close-minded and prudish. Okay, that's also really not gonna go well. But if you come in and you say something like, I want us to be able to talk openly about fantasies or...

you know, you're the person I want to be having sex with. And so I want to I want us to both be able to share about, you know, what are things we want to try in our sex life? Or I just care about our connection. And I don't want us to have secrets. You can I remember telling my mom I was kinky. And I remember being like, I don't need you to have any certain reaction. I just don't want to be hiding things. Right. And so it could be like that. It could be like

I just don't want be hiding things and it's something I've been thinking about a lot and it feels weird not telling you, but that doesn't mean we have to do any certain thing about it. I just kind of want you to know, right? That could be the conversation depending on where you're at. mean, be honest with where you're at. And it's okay to say, I feel nervous bringing this up. Or I think it can be helpful to say, I don't want you to feel pressured. The other thing I would say is this is one of those conversations where I think it can be so easy to be like,

Oh, well, there's this thing and I want to say it is but it's like kind of a fantasy but like you don't have to do it. You know, like don't do this whole like extra nervous preamble. Bring it up nicely state your intention and then just say it. Right? Hey, I'm into this fantasy called cuckolding. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. But I just wanted to be able to share it with you. Have you heard of it? Or do you want me to explain it to you? That could be it, right? And then expect questions.

expect them to have processing time. Because really, you've probably been processing this for at least months, if not years. And they just found out about it. Right? So give them some space. Expect this to be a series of conversations, not just like a one time, bloop, here's my kink. All right, we should be good, right? No. So this is an ongoing dialogue.

Heather Shannon (21:22.616)

And then the other important thing going into this conversation is don't rely on your partner's immediate reaction to determine how you feel about yourself or how you feel emotionally. So one thing you can do with that is actually to like pre-decide before you go into the conversation how you want to feel. So you can imagine them having a negative reaction and being like, okay, you know what? I'm going to take some space. Why don't you take some space too? Let's reconvene on this, you know.

in a few days. And you can also imagine it going well and being like, OK, great. We'll continue having conversations. Either way, because I've seen this go both ways, when people share kinks or fetishes, your partner might be like, OK, cool. In their mind, they might be like, I should be a supportive partner. I should say positive things. And then they sit with it and they're like, I'm really actually not super comfortable with doing this myself.

And I've also seen people react poorly and be like, what? You're into what? And then they sit with it they're like, I did some reading or I realized that is actually kind of common or I understand it better now. And so I am more open. however they react in the first conversation will not necessarily be their permanent reaction. So just we're practicing all the mindfulness skills in this conversation. We're not attaching to the outcome. We're practicing equanimity in ourself.

We're reducing judgment and we're speaking accurately. Okay, so now let's say you've talked about it and your partner is being cool, they're not yucking your yum. I also think that's a good ground rule when you bring it up, just letting them know like, I don't need any certain reaction from you except for just please don't.

say anything that's sort of hurtful, like, that's weird or whatever. So if you're not into it, just say, OK, I'm not into it, but I'd like to understand it better. That's a request you can make of your partner. OK, so let's say you're at least at that point. You've now had the conversation, and you're like, OK, what do we do now? There's a whole spectrum of what you can do. So it could be something where,

Heather Shannon (23:36.662)

You don't really act on it. And your partner's like, thank you for telling me. I like that I at least know this about you. It's something we can talk about. But I don't really want to incorporate it into my sex life, into our sex life. OK, fine. It could be somebody, maybe you get to a point of feeling like, OK, I don't want actually do this because I think that would be too much for me. But I'm OK incorporating it into our dirty talk and maybe talking about

you know, being with other people. It could be something that you explore one time, just to check it off the list. And maybe it's like, you know what? No, don't want to do it again. No, thank you. It could become an ongoing dynamic. It could be something that you continue to just explore in masturbation and solo playtime.

And it could also be any of these that evolve and change and are sort of in flux over the years. And while I think a lot of weight can be put on this fantasy, especially if you've waited a long time to share it. So I just want to remind you that no two partners have perfect sexual overlap. Right. And that's it's impossible. And I don't think it should be the goal. It's more like, do we have enough things that we can enjoy doing together that

There's plenty to explore. Great. And if but if this is sort of like your top fantasy, then I do think it's worth figuring out, OK, how do I want to meet my own needs in this way? Right. It could also be something where your partner's like, we've historically been monogamous, but I know this is really important to you and I don't want to do it. So go do it with someone else. That's another option. And there's probably lots of more options, but you're only going to find them when you're able to have the conversation.

in a non-judgy way, in a very open-minded way, in a way that's not saying there's only one way to do this and it's all or nothing, because that puts all this pressure on both of you, unhelpful. Now, the roles can be reversed with this, of course, right? So if there is a female partner who kind of wants to be the cuckold, that's actually called a cuck queen. So if there's a cuck queen partner, she might be like, I love watching my male partner with other people.

Heather Shannon (26:03.244)

You can also have this, again, with any queer couple, with any configuration of gender. You could just call it the cuck, right? So the idea here that's important is the power exchange, the elements of non-monogamy and kink, and that really has nothing to do with gender. So you pick the words that work for you. You pick the way that you want to communicate it. You pick the variation of this kink, whether it's more of a hot, hot...

Hot wife is again, but it could be hot husband. It could be a hot partner, whatever. Again, make up your own words if they don't exist. But I hope that this is helpful, right? The real win here is not executing cuckolding perfectly. It's building the kind of relationship where these types of fantasies and desires can be discussed without panic, right? You're building the safe space and like,

That's what's going to serve you well for the decades to come, right? Ongoing conversations to reduce shame, transparency so you're not feeling like you're sitting with this in secrecy by yourself and feeling uncomfortable about it. Emotional steadiness and ability to regulate emotions, which is where I always start, you know, with my coaching package clients. So you can have...

this loving, sweet, committed relationship, and a hot, sexy, kinky, complex inner world, right? Sometimes I just feel like humans try to, we try to put people in boxes, and we just, we're complex beings, it just doesn't work that way. So be honest, lay the groundwork, communicate well, and build that relationship that you want, where you can feel safe enough to be fully yourself.

So if you are in this type of situation where you're navigating something that feels kind of complex and nuanced in your sex life, and you want help handling it in a way that strengthens your relationship instead of straining it, that is exactly the work that I do. So I help couples reduce the stress around sex and build a relationship that is feeling aligned, intentional, and very enjoyable.

Heather Shannon (28:26.998)

So you can learn more about working with me through my program at heathershannon.co. And I thank you all for listening, and we will catch you next week on another episode of Sex for Couples.