Washington Square. On air is the Audiotown square for the Washington Square Review. Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing. Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Lucken, editor for the Washington Square Review. I'm here today with two authors, authors Reem Kashat and Aliza Mann. Hey, Reem. How you doing? Good.

How are you?

I'm pretty good. So you've been writing for a long time. Tell us a little bit about that.

Well, I started my writing journey officially in 2011. I didn't have any clue of what I was doing. My friend Aliza had dragged me along to a writing group, and we started learning. I think I'm still learning.

Okay, but let me ask you something real quick. What drew you to it? Like, why did you feel compelled to write?

Yeah, I was reading a lot of fan fiction, and sometimes life just feels like you can't control your own surroundings. So I felt like I was just gonna be God and create my own world and my own story. And that's kind of how it started.

With the fanfiction.

With the fan fiction? Yeah.

Where did you read the fanfiction?

Fanfic. That fanfiction website. And I was reading a lot of Harry Potter fanfiction.

Okay. All right, so talk some more. How did you trans from fanfiction? And how did meeting other writers move you in the new direction?

Well, when I started going to our local GDRW chapter, we would have workshops and they would always be talking, and it was just such a inspiring place to be. So I would just try to write and quickly learned that I had a lot to learn. But really I was just kind of trying to figure it all out and eventually decided to go back and get my degree in English. And that's where I started learning more about the craft and really trying to write stories.

Talk a little bit about your writing program. With the English.

I went to Southern New Hampshire University. I did an all online class school. It was great. Cause it was all like workshops. So each class you would write a story a week. So I learned to write really tight, really short stories every week. And it was interesting because you would write the story. And I always wrote from a romance lens, and not everybody in my classes understood that.

Yeah, for sure. So.

But it was just fun to write the stories, and it challenged me to hone in on those skills.

It's interesting because writing a short story is quite different from writing a novel. So you're hanging out with novel writers in the writing group. And then taking coursework writing short stories. So was that at all confusing working with those two kinds of plot structures?

I didn't really. While I was in school, I really wasn't writing book books. I kind of stuck too short. So my previous published work were all short stories. They were like little novellas. So it was easier for me to write those because writing a big story felt so daunting.

Earlier you said that when you first came to the group, you realized you had a lot to learn. Is there anything that stands out in your mind?

Oh, yeah, there was. I won a critique, phone conversation critique with a big six editor. And I took the day off of work.

Right. Just for the phone call.

Just for the one hour phone call. And she didn't call me. She forgot. So then, you know, we rescheduled for the next day and I was just so nervous. I took my lunch break, went down in the cafeteria and I talked to her. And she basically didn't talk about anything other than the fact that I needed to learn what writing stories actually meant. And it was just devastating.

What had she read of yours?

I had written a fantasy and it was like a dragon world and witches and it was just like a maybe five or seven page intro. And yeah, it was. Just demolished me. And I was sitting. I was sitting in our cafeteria at our building and just crying. I left after the call and I terrified the poor guy that owned the deli in the building. Remember him? He was like, are you okay? I'm like, I'll be fine. It was horrible. But that was like. That was like a turning point for me. It was like, I'm gonna learn the mechanics, you know?

And so by mechanics, do you mostly mean, like the structure?

Yeah, just in all, like, I went back to like the nitty gritty grammar and story structures and voice passive and, you know, just the whole thing.

So after your crying moment, how did you dust yourself off?

Oh, it took a minute. Yeah, it took a minute. It did take a minute. But that's when I had decided to go back to school.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right. Yeah, yeah. So talk a little bit more about your journey.

So I think I was publishing under Self publishing short stories and one novel under Sage Spelling. It was a name I chose because it reminded me of Sivir Snape from Harry Potter ss, you know? Okay. But it was the name that I was just experimenting under. It was the kind of thing where you write a story because everybody's like, oh, they're buying this at this publishing house, so you should try to write that so you try to write it and it doesn't pan out for you, so you self publish. It was like, almost like the area where I was just. The name was. And the brand was more like, I'm gonna try this under here and I'm try this. And I never really found my voice under that because I felt like I was just trying to do what everybody else was saying was popular or selling right now or, you know, in the market. So shortly after. Not shortly, a long time after, I decided to really go back to what I enjoy writing. And it was women's fiction. And that's where I am right now.

Okay. All right. So talk a little bit about what that looks like now.

Now I actually this year have rebranded myself from Sage Spelling to Rainbow, and I'm writing women's fiction. Family saga. I started a new series called the Family Bonds generational series saga. And it is a story about women and in different generations and how they cope with dating. For me, I come from a small community. You couldn't date openly. When I was in my 20s, it was very, like, secretive. You had to sneak around. And then now, 20 years later, things are different. So the story in the series kind of looks at that journey as a whole and the different ones for three generations of women.

So this to you feels much more like yourself, more authentic, and you feel more connected to it. Talk a little bit about what you were writing before.

So I had like a coming of age new adult novella series. I wrote a Fantas. It was. I don't even want to. It was paranormal kind of erotic type romance. And then I wrote a contemporary romance with the Kaki Hero club. And that was more true to what I write. Now I feel like it has more of that feel. So, yeah, I was just kind of everywhere.

Was there ever a time when you were writing and you felt like your own authorial voice was showing up on the page maybe for the first time?

It was probably in Wicked Wingman, which was part of the cocky hero club. That's when I noticed where my voice was. And it was because I was putting more of me and my culture and my viewpoint into the story.

Yeah. Which always feels so much better than trying to write something that feels like it's fitting in someone else's box or whatever. Yeah. Did it help you pick up writing faster or just felt more satisfying?

I think it does help me now that I'm finished the first one, and I kind of have the feel I'm writing faster. I was able to write two short stories to go along along with it fairly quickly. Because for a while, I wasn't able to, like, kick him out like that. So, yeah, I think now that I know my voice and I know my viewpoint, it's been an easier journey.

Yeah. Hey, Aliza. Did you notice a difference?

I did. So we beta for each other from time to time. And I was on my way to Chicago. We were driving, and Reem had sent it over, looked up, and I was in Chicago. Cause my partner was driving and I was like, oh, this is good. Like, like.

And then you're like. The other was good also, right?

The other was good also, but it was different. It was like plot driven, character forward. Like, it was like all the good things, you know? And not that it hadn't been before, but this felt like. Like a real world you could slip into.

Right. And maybe like, she was there with you. She was.

And you can hear her voice. It is very family based. And we always complain about our family, you know, and our culture is kind of aligned in some ways. And I'm like, you know how they are. And she's like, yes, I do. And I could totally hear the voice. And the cultural differences resonated. It was amazing. I love that feel. It is very good.

Thank you.

Because we often, as writers here, write what you love. And a lot of times I think everybody ignores that and writes what they think they can sell, Right? Yeah.

And I didn't know where this would go because it started off with women's fiction, and then it became romance, and then it became a family saga. And it's like, I don't even, you know, and when I pitch it, that's how I pitch it. It's all the things. Because it doesn't fit really into a spot on the bookshelf. You know what I mean? I don't ever see a spot like that there.

Yeah. So talk about your author self. You had to kind of reinvent yourself.

I did.

And so you must have learned some lessons from your first self that you could tell your second self.

Yeah. This time around, I took a class. I'm all about learning. I'm always taking classes now. And I took a class called Publish and Thrive. And within that class, it was the reason why I decided to change my name. Because she spoke about being very clear in your author brand. And I think because I was so not clear in my author brand before, that it was a good idea to switch. So I picked a name. Reem is my real name. And using that, it almost is a brand within itself. And I had to start off with a brand new website, brand new social media. The class was good because it gave me a roadmap of how to go from point A to point Z. You know, and it was helpful. But it's a lot of work to start from scratch.

Right?

Yeah.

What lessons did you learn the first time you invented your writer self that did carry in?

Oh, that was hard. I don't know.

Always showing anybody. Right?

Huh.

Not listening to other people.

Well, yeah, we spoke about that not too long ago and that's true. Yet not listening to everybody. And you mean jumping. Whenever someone says jump, you know.

Okay, so you mean there's too much incoming advice and you have to really sort out what is good for you.

Filter it out. Because it would be like before, you know, you'd be working on a project and someone would say, hey, I'm going to do this anthology. Do you want to do it with me? And before I be like, okay. And now it's like, I don't think that's going to work for me. You know, you have to really look at what you're capable of and what time you have allowed. And if that project's actually going to move the needle forward, I have to be smart in the projects that I choose.

Be more strategic. Yeah, yeah. And there's only so much time.

Absolutely.

Right. So talk a little bit about some of the steps you took when you were first recreating your new social media.

Ah, okay. So I initially had to, you know, get the new website name and the new social media platforms.

How did you decide which ones to use?

It's the ones that I like using. Right. So I went with that. I like TikTok, but I'm not really great at it. And I like Instagram and Facebook, so I stick to those. I didn't even create a threads for it.

Again, making choices and not trying to do everything.

Yeah, because I'm not. I've never been that type of person that would, you know, just put out a blank statement like people did on X or Twitter, you know, so threads has that same feel and it just didn't appeal to me, so I stayed away from it. That was one of the first choices. It was also finding someone that can create me the website in a way where it could merge my brands, you know, so I still have Sage, but also, you know, because they don't want to get rid of her because she's there, but still feature the ream portion of the work. And then to try to get newsletter followers, I had to write short stories and you know, create like newsletter subscription and you know, try to get people to sign up for it and do the soft email welcoming, you know, and that's all. It takes time. So it was all of those little pieces.

Yeah. So taking the class really helped you organize all of that?

Yeah, yeah, it was great because she literally broke them down by little tiny pieces.

Yeah. Because I know a lot of people when they first start writing and they want to create an author brand, it's just a lot. And I think what you guys said about being strategic, doing what works for you is probably got to be really helpful for people because otherwise, you know, everyone will say, well, you should do this or you should do that.

There's so many options. Right. So self publishing, it's, you know, do KDP or do Ingram or be exclusive to KDP or go wide. There's just so many choices. And because I had already done one portion, I figured, you know, when I was doing Sage, I figured I would try it, you know, in the other way.

So how did you approach it?

I went wide. I did wide.

Explain what wide means.

Well, I should. Wide is adding your book to where you. They are able to purchase it at any retailer. And then that would also get you in possibility of, you know, bookstores, independent bookstores. You can go.

Target.

Target, yeah. Barnes and Noble and you know, all the things. I mean, you might, you know, unless I sell a lot, I'm not going to have my book on the table at Barnes and Noble yet. But you know, I might be able to get one in an independent bookstore and having that capability going wide libraries, which is a great option too, you know. So having going wide, you're able to get to more readers. Then when you're in Amazon KDP exclusive, you are only for Amazon readers.

Okay. So a person would need to decide what's best for them.

Absolutely. And the type of books you write. So with me being women's fiction wide is just a better audience.

Talk a little bit some more about your friendship. I know last time we were chatting we talked about the starting. So it's your turn to say your side.

Well, she told it almost correct, except Eric is my husband. But yeah, whatever the lies. But she was. I often credit her for bringing me into this world because I would have never thought it was possible to even pursue something like that more than fanfic and putting your chapter per chapter on a website. I didn't think it was possible, but she dragged me kicking and screaming to a meeting and. And it was just been like having a buddy with you. So when you go to these new spaces, you feel very isolated. And for me, I never got to feel that way because she was with me every step of the journey, from, you know, writing conferences to signings to. It was like, you going, okay, I'll go. If, you know, it was, you know, very. Like, I always had someone and I always had that support system because of our friendship.

Yeah. Talk about the time when you guys knew that you were like, friend friends. Like, how did you know? Because you got to know each other. You started hanging out together, doing some writing stuff, and I don't know, it.

Just kind of happened. It started to overlap between work and writing and then family. It was like, I can depend on you in any aspect of my life. Right. And it just melted into this friendship. It was organic. It just happened.

I think so. And I think the reliability factor, too. Right. So, you know, I have friends. Right. But nobody understands what it's like to write. Like, nobody gets it.

Yep. Definitely. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you guys both on together. Because in writing, like you said, most people just don't get what it's like. I mean, it's thousands and thousands of hundreds of thousands of words that you write yourself. Yeah.

And calling somebody and saying, I can't make it work. They can't get together. And having that person, that goes, did you try this? Okay. You know, you always need to work on this. You know, that is perfect. Right. It's so helpful. And even when the bad stuff happens, we picked each other up off the floor.

Yeah. Because after that editor and I cried in the deli, I went into her office and cried for another half hour. You know, it's like, so how is.

It different crying to another writer than it is to other people?

Other people don't get it.

Right.

They're like, why are you crying? Who cares? Who's that lady?

You know?

But it's like they don't realize that every word and every part of creating that story, even if I had no clue what I was doing, I put a piece of me in there. And when someone, you know, crushes that dream, it crushes you. And only another creative can possibly understand that.

Yep. And if they've been through your journey with you. Yeah. And also, sometimes it seems to me, and you guys tell me what you think about this, that it's helpful to have one or two really consistent sounding boards. And so when you go to a meeting or a conference and you meet a bunch of other writers, if you talk to Everyone, like we were saying, and you absorb all the information and all the ideas from everyone. You can leave just overwhelmed.

Yeah, absolutely. I was saying that I don't think I love taking workshops, but I rather take them online versus going to those big conventions now and taking all the workshops because that just becomes so overwhelming. You're not able to absorb the information and be able to filter out what's what you want and what works for them and what works for you. It's harder to do that in this video. Big, vast.

Ooh, that's a really good point.

Yeah. So I've been taking, like. I've been taking classes. The incor con is virtual this year. Well, I think it's always virtual, but this is the first year I'm taking it, and I'm able to sort through the workshops and be like, this is good for me and learn from it versus I remember going. And just like from 7am to 5pm we're like, workshop, workshop. And it just becomes overload.

Right. And then when you add in the networking and the social elements, it's hard to balance all that at the same time. Yeah, Yeah. I think it takes a certain amount of bravery to set aside advice that you're given sometimes. How do you know when something is good for you and how do you know when you need to set it aside?

You get a feeling. Right. You kind of know when someone says something to you, how it's gonna fit in to your vision. You get like that. I don't know how to describe it. It's like a pit in your stomach. Right. Like, I don't know. This is making me nervous. And I feel like if it makes me nervous, it's probably not a good thing.

Nervous, but not excited.

Not excited. Yeah.

Right.

So I think that's kind of. I just go with my gut now. And I feel like just because we've been doing this for so long.

Right.

That you. You have to follow your instincts.

Yeah. I'm thinking that when you first got started and you were doing writing and you were probably doing it well, technically well, but you weren't doing it as you completely. Yet you hadn't developed that intuition. And I think maybe what I'm thinking now is talking to you guys is that you just have to be patient with yourself and hang in there and trust your own intuition and wait until you feel like you can really trust it.

Yeah. Yeah. And what part of the industry is good for you? So a lot of people are like, oh, you know, when we first started, I would have never Considered self publishing at first because it was so taboo, you know. And then we would be sitting in these rooms. They're like, oh, no. We were in a. We shared a cabin with the man that.

Mark Coker.

Yeah.

From Smashwood. We're so stupid. He was like, hey, you know what? You should really check into self publishing. You know, I have a really good company. And we were like.

I don't know. I'd rather go the traditional route.

You can just keep your little company to yourself. Thank you.

And he was like, okay. But the nice man paid for our cash, even though we were like, we basically insulted him and his life work. I hope he never remembers what's a good thing. I go by different names.

He sees you two together, I remember them. Yeah, ebooks were the same thing, you know, Just goes to show that industry has changed so much, even in just the past 10 years. That's true. That's wild. So talk a little bit about your process, how you go about, you know, your own writing, because you're in corporate America as well. So.

I'm a binge writer, okay. I don't write every day. I sometimes don't write for a couple of weeks, and then I'll write for a week straight and then I will stop for a couple of weeks and then write for another three days. And I think it's just because being motivated, you know, fighting that procrastination as well as just being inspired. And I feel like the truth is, once I write, I am more inspired and I will write more. If I do it frequently, it's when I pull myself out, then I get lazy and that procrastination hits. But I am a binge writer that if I set myself a deadline, I'm more likely to hit a deadline. So then when I just. Oh, you know, with the stories, I get ideas from everywhere, you know, I see, like the other day I saw my brother and my father, like, arguing over something. I'm like, that's gotta go in a book. You know, like that argument has to go in a book. You know, little things like that. I get the little ideas from stories we hear. One of the things that inspire me too is giving people second chances. And I'm a huge. I love second chance romance. So I like taking maybe an idea of someone that, you know, just needs another chance, you know, and starting over. And I think the older I get, I feel like, you know, starting over at 40 is great, you know, and giving that the happy ever after. So that's a lot of things I like to focus on in stories.

What you were saying about being a binge writer is contrary to that idea that you have to write every day. And it just goes to show that that's not necessarily true, and that writing is something you do over your whole life. It has to be the way that you do it. Your own process. Do you typically plot out your whole book, or do you write it, plot it, and write it as you go?

I think it just changes all the time, Right? So I actually noticed. I saw this workshop, and I was like, oh, I do that. So I think it was called a skeleton. A skeleton for, like, a novel. So you, like, if it's gonna be a 90,000 word, you kind of write a 30,000, and it becomes from beginning to end, and that's your skeleton draw.

Oh, okay.

And I was like, oh, that's genius. But that's what I like. I know. That's kind of how I do it. I usually write very short, and then I fill it in maybe not 30,000. Usually it's like 40. And then I'm like, okay, I'm done. Now. Let me go and add. And that has been, I think, what works mostly for me.

How do you know what you need to add in?

I build my characters, right? We get the idea of who we want and what stories we want and how they. So I spend a few hours kind of thinking of the characters and their goals and motivations and stuff like that. And then once I built that skeleton, I read it through and go, okay, no, you know, that's when the creative part starts, where you're like, okay, the story takes you here or the characters take you here. And I kind of just, as I read, I'm like, oh, it needs this. And then you just kind of. It spreads out, you know, goes its own direction.

So you trust the story and let the story go where the story wants.

And, I mean, if it hits a wall, then we have to kind of figure it out how to get off the wall.

Yeah. Then you call Aliza.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm like, I don't know what just happened, but.

Are you thinking of anything that she's left out?

No. You know what? I do think you have little squirrel moments, too. I think all of us do, though. Like, we're like, I want to write this, you know? So I do think you have squirrel moments. But for the most part, she's more consistent with staying on track with the story that she's writing. And I think you got everything, though.

Yeah. I mean, she's right about the squirrel I'll get like 20,000 into or 30,000 into a story and be like, I don't feel like writing that anymore and I'll move on. That does happen, which is really bad when you have a bunch of, like, unfinished, you know, work. But it's also good when you want. You can go back and be like, oh, this wasn't so bad, you know.

So you figure out why you started it in the first place.

Yeah, because the story that I originally, the one I just published this year, it actually started in 2015 when we were in New York. Like, that's when I got the first initial idea for it, and that's when I first started writing it.

I think that.

Did it start on a cruise ship?

Yes, it technically started on a cruise ship. Now it's a small town, you know, that I. A fictional town. I started, you know, in the West Bloomfield Farmington area. I planted it there. But yeah, originally it was supposed to be like a Mediterranean cruise.

I think that's fascinating. That's something that readers probably aren't aware of is how someone may start writing a story and then it could take six years, and then it might sit somewhere for a couple years and then they pick it up and again they're like, oh, this is awesome. I love myself. I wrote this.

Exactly.

Yeah. Sometimes I think it's just a timing thing. And it sounds like it worked out great for you that you found yourself and your voice and the stories all at the same time. I think it would be really interesting for someone to check out all your social media and then compare. Right?

Oh, the difference. Yeah, probably.

Yes. That's a homework assignment for anyone who's interested. So we're going to put your links in the show notes also so people can check you out and do the comparison thing and get back with us and tell us what they find. Thanks a lot for joining us today.

Thank you.

Thanks for stopping by the audio Town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been Washington Square on air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc. Edu WSL Writing is messy, but do it anyway.

Sam.