Welcome to another Principle of Hospitality podcast. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode brought to you by Principle Design and Philotemo. Principle of Hospitality has been developed to tell the stories of professionals within the dynamic world of hospitality. We're straight talking, ethically minded, and a reliable online source of information and inspiration for people in the hospitality industry.
I'm your host Leon Kennedy. Today I'm sitting here with It's Alexis Cownand, did I say that right? Yeah. Amazing. How are you bro? Yeah, good dude. Thank you for being here.
Yeah, my pleasure.
It's awesome to um, be sitting here with you to um, hear a little bit more about your story. I need to intro you a little harder than that though, so I, I wanted to get you talking up front though, cause I feel like trying to intro you needs to be a little bit interactive because I feel like we could go a few different ways here.
Yeah. Absolutely. Alright, so I, I, I guess from my point of view, I need to, um, try to give the public a little bit of a sense of who you are. And I think, obviously, they're going to learn that just through the content of the podcast, but it's good to have a little bit of insight before, before we start so they can have some context for the journey.
And one of the ways that I thought would be good to give people a bit of a snapshot, is Is like the word pedigree comes to mind for me. So obviously a little while ago we had Gareth Witton on the podcast and you know, Gareth, obviously pretty well, when Gareth knows you so well, he, he actually copied one of your desserts.
He's gonna murder us for that. But no, I mention it because when Gareth was on I made a reference about, um, West Point. I don't know if you, if you heard. Yeah, the military school. Yeah, where the Marines go. And I sort of said that, you know, if there was a cooking school for West Point, you know, Gareth would have been one of the four out of the hundred whatever that, that graduated.
And I think you'd be another one of the four. Is that a fair thing to say? Yeah, I think like, you know, you guys have both gone through the ringer. You've been through some really high pressure. We've
made it out the other side.
Yeah, exactly. Lots of
people do it, but not everyone is at the other end. Yeah,
and it's like, I feel like you guys are in that, you know, you're in that elite club that have actually not quit.
You know, and you, and you pushed through and got there. So, yeah, I mean, I think that paints a pretty good picture, I think. Is that, are you comfortable with that? You know, um, I guess the Other thing that I think also paints the picture really well is your nickname. PDG. I think like I'll go on record here and say, I think your nickname is the greatest nickname that has ever been created in a kitchen.
You got to admit it's pretty damn good. All right, PDG. So for everyone who doesn't know Alex or who hasn't worked with Alex, he's Nickname is pack down God
That's a respect I know there's a little bit of controversy around that, you know Maybe if there's time later, we can get into that. I just think most of the nicknames that come out of a kitchen Flat out like degrading or you know, maybe just a lesson in humility. Yeah So to come out with something that's actually quite flattering is pretty good and I think it it's it's it's Reflects, you know the the elite level that you that you're kind of on so yeah, how do you feel about that picture painted?
Yeah,
yeah Let's jump into it, so I guess like what I'd really love to do in this conversation For a little bit of background like principle of hospitality is a podcast It's all about the industry and the purpose that it serves is that it's trying to create You information and guidance and support for people that are in hospitality because hospitality is freaking tough, right?
As far as businesses go. Um, and so what we're really trying to achieve with this is, is really a platform for people that are really great at what they're doing to share some of the things that aren't so obvious from the outside. And hopefully that in some way, shape or form helps and provides a little bit of support and guidance and information.
And Dare I say it inspiration, you know for the people out there that are, you know working in the industry and putting in the hard yards so What I think would be great to do today is like i'd love to get into some of your stories Yeah, um, and i'd love to sort of like see if we can How do I put it? I guess like i'd love to see if we can through I guess delving into some of your stories.
We can try to Stitch together and understand a little bit about your ethos You Because I think there's lots of people that have come and eaten your food over the years at dinner, and Matilda, and Hazel, and soon to be Molly, and you know, I think there's a lot of people that are familiar with the food, but they might not be familiar with what goes on behind the scenes that creates the food.
Yeah, like
why we're doing it. Yeah,
and also the how, you know, so I'd love to get into that, you know, but I think before we just jump to that, It'd just be good to do the, the standard issue. Let's run through the CV. Yeah. Um, so just maybe if you can talk us through the headlines of like, you know, where you've been, where you've worked, but maybe just as a jumping off point, let's start with, um, first job.
How did you start in
hospitality? So I'd moved to London when I was 18, kind of got like half shipped away by my mom, one way ticket. Really? Yeah. And then we did good way or a bad way? Uh, like I was pretty naughty. Okay. I was hanging around here and she's just like, go to London, you know, discover yourself.
Okay, got it. So it wasn't like a Yeah, I wasn't
being like shipped off to boarding school or something. Right, okay. It wasn't like, I need to keep you out of jail, bam. No, no, no. Okay. Well, I hope not. Yeah. It was just more of a go and discover yourself. Yeah. Like, you know.
Go and stop being like a stone escaping king.
Like, grow up a little bit.
Profs to mum, that's a good call. Yeah, yeah. She's
got a really romantic view of London from the 60s. Okay, got it. She was there and she's like, yeah. Got
it. Which it's unfortunately not like the 60s at
all. Uh, so I was there, I was struggling to get a job. I moved out to like a pub in the country for a little bit.
Didn't work, I was there for like, you know, a month or something. Okay.
Can I just ask you, when you rolled into London, did you know people? Were you set up? I had
two brothers there. Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Alright, cool, cool.
Um, And then I came back down, and I was living on my brother's couch, and he got me a job in a nightclub as a bus back, as a, like, bar, bar back.
Um, and I had no money, like I was completely dying. And you'd never worked in hospitality before? What did you do? Actually, I'd worked in Hungry Jacks.
Okay.
Yeah, that was my first. Okay,
which is the pinnacle of hospitality. I mean, in a systems, from a systems perspective, it kind of is, but yeah. Okay. But that's all you'd done.
It was just hungry Jacks.
Um, and then, so I was barbecuing and I really needed money and they had, it was a nightclub in Shoreditch called the bathhouse. And it was a nightclub on Friday night, Saturday. And then during the week, it was like a little restaurant. Um, Below ground and they'd like a little cafe upstairs.
Okay, and so I asked the owners I was like, is there anything I can do? I'll just help out, you know, whatever No, we are you can help us like clean and move shit around during the week cuz they'd like only recently open
Yeah,
and so I was there just helping doing whatever I can, you know And then one day, like, the kitchen was really busy, and they were off in this other room, and they're like, oh, can you come and help us?
And I just sort of, like, helped out a bit, and then I was doing, you know, that moved to doing dishes for them. Okay. And so, like, I was just, I'd be in there doing dishes on the days that they were open, and then, like, you know, carrying glasses around on the weekends. It was a fun job for, like, a young kid.
Yeah. Um, in, like, big London.
Yeah.
Um, and then, um, One day, like I'd helped him out a little bit. And then one day, one of the chefs who was the head chef's brother, they had a big fight and he just walked out. Oh my God. And it was like my call to get in there like, yeah, it was your chance. Like come and jump in.
And I was like, yeah, alright, let's go. . How'd you go? Obviously. Well like probably, I don't know. Yeah, . I think I had a lot of like, you know, like, oh yeah, I'm up for anything. Okay. Got it. Um, and then. And then that just moved on to like finally after a month or so I got to be like just in the kitchen. And then I was in the kitchen, like I'd still do the dishes, so we'd do service.
And the dishes, it was, there was two rooms next to each other with like a door on each and then a walkway. Going out to like the club or the restaurant, whatever night it was. Right. And uh, On the right hand side room was the pot wash, and on the left hand side room was the kitchen. So the pot wash would just fill up with dishes all night, and then I'd, we'd clean down, I'd like help to the floor, and then I'd go over and like jump in the pot wash and spend like an hour doing dishes.
So I got really fast at doing dishes. That's probably where the name started. The real origin story. Okay. Um, and then I was there, Yeah. I was there for like three years and I got really into cooking. You know, I have this thing quite often in life where I just kind of fall in love with things and, you know, especially if it's like fun.
Yeah.
Um, and then I got really, really into it and my boss got me, like I wanted to learn more. So my boss knew someone at Westminster College and he got me into, to like a course at Westminster College, which I didn't really know. Like a cooking course? Yeah. Oh wow, so you like went to cooking school? Yeah, but I didn't even know.
Like, I didn't know about apprenticeships back in Australia or anything. I was so ignorant. Everything I was just doing because I was like, this is cool, I want to learn more, you know. And then, after that, my girlfriend at the time, her sisters, her, no, her flatmates, Sister's boyfriend was a chef at a place in Sloane Square, like on the other side of town, a bit more ritzy.
Yeah, sure. And so through that I got a job there, and I was still going to cooking school. And I stayed there for like another three years. Woah, okay, that's a good stint. Or two years. Something like that. Like, long times. What sort of, like, restaurant was it? So it was below the Royal Court Theatre, in Town Square, so it was like pre theatre dining.
Oh, got it. So you would just get hammered. The food was really nice, and it was all like this English, you know, lovely like terrines and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, we'd get hammered for like an hour and a half.
Got it. And was it, was it, I mean it sounds pretty traditional. Was it, was it traditional as well in terms of the culture of the kitchen?
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Like
getting brutalized. Yeah, sure. Okay, so that far. All right. And so you're, you're 18 at this point? Nah, I was much older by that point. Probably
like 22, something like there. So early 20s at
cooking school. Yeah, at cooking school
one day a week and then five days at thing and then Sunday, uh, Myself, for, I don't know, ages.
Okay. And then, so finally I was homesick and I came back home, and I remember when I got back home, I went to like a recruitment agent, and I still remember perfectly like sitting in the, in the office and they were like, Alright, so where did you do your apprenticeship? And I just like looked at them like, What?
I was like, uh, I haven't done an apprenticeship, and they're like, oh, have you been to cooking school? And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, I went to cooking school. And he's like, thank God. Yeah, totally. And they're like, where'd you go? And I was like, oh, I went to Westminster College in London. And they're like, oh really?
Wow.
Cause it sounds pretty prestigious. Yeah, it sounds like, ooh,
Westminster. Yeah,
it's like the Harvard cooking school. Is it actually though? I think it's good, I don't know about Harvard.
Um, and then so through that I got a job at Phoenix, which was by like Gary Megan. Oh yeah. And I just sort of started the, you know, the working in really nice restaurants.
Got it. And I was there, and then I worked at the members club for a while. And then my Members club where? In RSV. Oh right, in the city? Yeah, in the city. Oh wow, okay, hectic. Um, which is pretty cool to see, like, you know, they had like seven different outlets and then the members club, it was kind of like food cost wasn't really a thing, so Right.
You know, it's all paid for by the members. So it's just like, turn it up?
Yeah, just do really, really nice food. What was the most outrageous thing you cooked there without having to worry about cogs?
I can't even remember.
That's probably like Something obscene.
Yeah. A long time ago now. That was pretty old school.
It was like that sort of classic old school French
finder. Okay, got it. You know, you know, just a side note, a bit off topic, but something quite interesting that you say there, like, you know, I feel like there's this kind of myth out there, you know, in most things that are cost related, where everyone always says things, Oh, if I didn't have to worry about costs, I could just make the most amazing thing ever.
You literally worked in a place where that was cool, and you can't even remember what the dish was. So yeah, exactly. Pretty, yeah, interesting.
Um, and then, So and then my brother, my brother at the time had moved to Amsterdam.
Okay.
And he'd opened this massive nightclub. Okay. Wait, is he, he's
your brother like front of house, right?
Nah, front of house. As in like, what was he working as? So he
was like a systems engineer in London. I see he's written Open to Club. Alright, that's heavy. That's his friends with Nish. Oh right, okay cool. That's how they have a connection. That's the connection, okay cool. And then, and he was like emailing me, it's weird.
Also email like I was on Facebook or anything. So he emailed me like, Hey dude, you gotta get over here. Mm-Hmm. . Like, it's insane. And I was like, oh yeah, nah, I can't working. Mm-Hmm. . Where, where were you working at that point? At that was okay. And then, and my girlfriend at the time was planning to go and do an internship in London.
And so I was like, oh. And she, she was gonna be there for two months and then, so I was like, oh, you know what? Maybe I will just come, I'll come over and I'll stay there and then we can still like be pretty close to each other. Yeah. And I went over there for a holiday and I was like, wow, this is incredible.
I had no money again. Right. How old is it at this point? Probably like 24, 25, something like that. It was pretty soon after. Yeah. Um, and then got this really, really good job at um, uh, like a place called Ron Gastro Bar by Ron Blau. Okay. And then And I was just like, actually this is incredible, I'm gonna stay here.
Alright. What kind of place was that? It was like, um, so Ron Blau had, he had two stars in his, like, sort of first restaurant, or I don't know about first, but the big one. And then he handed in the two stars to open like a one star where it was same, the plates were almost same format as what you get in the degustation, but you'd order them by plate.
So there's a different sort of concept, like service was really fast and the food was, the food was really beautiful, but not quite as many touches as maybe like 30. Got it, got it. But everything was premium. You know, like some of these little dots and all that sort of crap. Yeah, yeah. Um, but the food was amazing and the work was like intense.
Okay, and this is a one star restaurant we're talking about? Yeah, Amsterdam. Um, Like you'd start at nine in the morning and just be absolutely go like full like 120 for lunch, 120 for dinner, like full all the time. So when you start at nine in the morning, what time are you finishing? Uh, like between 12 and one probably.
Dude, and you're getting like any break?
Uh, we'd all sit down for family dinner half an hour before service.
Okay, got it. But the rest of the time you're just turbo, like Yeah, just going for it. Got it. As fast as you can. How did you cope in that environment when you sort of entered that heavy, I mean, I'm guessing that was probably the most intense For sure.
Sure, that you'd experienced yet. Yeah. And did you, you know, get in there and just feel like, okay, About this or did you just feel like what the fuck am I about to do?
I just sort of went with it, you know And then you build up more stamina like for the first month or two you knackered at the end of the night then That's when I learnt, like, energy really creates more energy.
Sure. If you go in the morning, and I'd chant this sort of thing, because I'd be knackered in the morning, I'd be in the shower, and I'd be like, I'm feeling fresh and excited. Really? I'd jump into my bike, like, go as fast as I can to work. Like, for real, you actually would say those words? Like a little, you know.
Yeah? Like a mantra or
something? Okay. Um. Amazing. Where did you learn to do that? I don't know. It just came to you?
Yeah. I don't know. It could have been my brother. He's always into that sort of stuff. Okay. Also, I was going out quite a bit, and having a nightclub, so I think I needed a little bit of fun.
Yeah. So, and then I was there for, like, about a year, and then after leaving there, um, I'd stopped off in, I did, like, a little stint in Belgium and Germany, at the Jane and, uh, Tim Rao in Germany. Which, well, I was there for like a month each. What kind of places these also stars or? Yeah, the Jane had two stars then, I don't know, it might have a three star now.
Okay. It was, it was from all the chefs from Oud Sluis. Okay. Who was just three star, I think Gareth worked there. That's where Gareth worked. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the funny story about Gareth is, when I, so the place in Amsterdam that I worked at. Yeah. Um, when I started working there, he was like, The head chef Bobby Ross was like, You're Australian, I used to work with an Australian guy called Skippy, so you're Skippy.
I was like, alright, cool. That was your first nickname. Yeah. I was like, alright, cool, I'm Skippy. And then years later when I was working with Gareth, he's like, we're talking about a history where we worked and stuff And he was like, oh man, I used to be called Skippy and I was like, dude, no way You ever worked with Bobby Ross and he's like, yeah, he's a jerk I was like, oh my god, they call me Skippy
as well, dude.
It's all your fault. It was the original Skippy Yeah, oh man, that is gold. I can't believe you guys worked that out. Yeah
And then after that I came back I worked with my friend for a little while just helping him out and then started working at dinner where I worked for, I don't know, like three or four years or something.
Okay. And then after that went to Matilda. Yep. 159 South Yarra. Yep. And then after that came and joined you guys at Hazel.
Amazing, man. What a, what a record. Like that's a, Like I said, it makes me feel a bit old when I say this. It's incredible. I mean, I gotta say, like, there's a lot of things that I could pick out of that sort of summary of your career, but weirdly the thing that just blows my mind is like, I mean, I've heard about people cutting their teeth in a lot of weird Restaurants like Italian ramen and all sorts of crazy shit But I've never ever heard of anyone starting their career in a place that was a cafe restaurant and a nightclub Yeah,
that is a really cool place.
It was in an old bath house just next to Liverpool Street Okay, so the entrance was this like tiny little picture like almost like a Turkish dome Um, and then you'd go in and it was just like one little, uh, person and coffee machine and then downstairs were these stairs that you'd go and it was like this whole underground lair.
Okay.
Yeah.
Man, that's crazy. I mean, I just, I just don't understand how places like that can be viable. You know, like how do they make money long enough to make it work? You know, it's, it's hard enough for a place that's just a cafe or just a restaurant to, you know, to nail your identity so clearly and to articulate it so clearly that, you know, people in the public can understand it through hopefully the conduit of your staff that also understand it.
That's so hard to nail. Yeah. You know, with just one business that does one thing.
I get the feeling that really the nightclub is the moneymaker.
That is fair. Lots of money and booze. Um, I reckon like there's so much like in that, that would be great to unpack. I just, before we do, I'd love to ask you a little bit about But it seems to me like, you know, you never really thought about cooking before you got to London, obviously.
Yeah.
You know, and then you got in there and you had a little bit of taste for it, and then something sparked. And then that then just pushed you on what seems to me to be like this progressive journey.
Yeah.
You know, where you kind of just went, I'm going to climb the kind of ladder and get to the, you know, do the stars thing and get to that point.
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and then it sounds like at that point you kind of found your own identity and started to, you know, came home to start to, you know, maybe keep pushing and keep learning, but maybe at that point the door was ajar, which is the door being a passageway into like your own personal ethos and who you are.
And I'm just curious before we get to that bit, like at the start, can you put your finger on what it was that drove you to embark on such an arduous journey?
I don't know about the arduous journey, I think like you never really, well for me, I'd never really, you know, like if I go out for a walk in the morning, I don't know if I'm going to go out for two hours, that sort of thing.
I remember like one of the biggest things for me was when I was working at the Royal Court Theatre and, A friend of my brother's had been with him the night before, and he gave me this book, like Harold McGee on food and, uh, food and science, or food and wine, or whatever it was. Like an encyclopedia. Okay.
And the next day I took it to work. I got to work a bit early, and I sat at a cafe nearby, and I started, I opened to read this book, and he's like, just read this book. Like, he's like, you probably won't be able to read it, but use it as a reference book. What did he mean by that? Like it's so complicated? It was just an encyclopedia.
Okay. You know, like a chapter on dairy and oh wow, you know stuff like that and just super technical Yeah, super. Okay, like a super, you know, dry heavy read. All right But I was kind of like nah, I love that sort of shit. So Open the first page and it said something. I can't move it word for word, but it was like it was like, um you know chefs of the past have Learned off recipes.
Whereas the new age chef wants to Like, understand what they've done and why they're doing it. And this was like, it's like, oh, like, I fucking love this. I mean, reading it, it's like, oh, food. That's when I really started to understand, like, food's such a science and it's so technical. Mmm. You know, there's all these things, like, there's, there's a million ways to do anything.
Mmm. And you can, you can learn about it in theory, but then you can also, like, go and practice the theory. Yeah. And so, you know, like, everyone has a different technique, and some of them work better, and you're always gonna be able to do that thing again, and maybe learn on it, and I think that's really what started the sort of spark of my really, really being into this stuff.
Got it. So, so, what I hear there is that, like, you discovered this book that was a bit of a instruction manual. For how, you know, the compounds and science of food kind of works. And then from there you were able to go, okay, there's a real technical progressive component to this. Yeah. Which I don't know if this is the case, but it sounds like you are naturally quite scientifically minded.
Yeah. I like to, you know.
Yeah. Like progressively work through things. I know you grew up skateboarding and all that stuff. I mean, all those things are about, you know, incremental. Progressive gains to learn how to improve and do do things objectively and a very methodical Scientific mind is an incredible asset to have you know for any one who's growing up and entering adulthood and whatnot but it sounds to me like That book was the thing that helped you connect those dots that This is a pathway for me to do more of that.
Yeah.
That's cool. It's like,
Oh, this is actually all just a big jigsaw. I can like have fun putting together and working it out, you know?
Got it. So let me ask you something interesting then, because what you were describing there is very, very much about the technicalities, the, the mechanics of it, you know, which is usually a lot of the, um, Right hand side of the brain?
Which one's the side of the brain that's creative? Whatever it is, the creative side of the brain. You know, I guess like, you know, I just shake it. Yeah I think it's the right, I think the right side of the brain is all about the the logic and the not Creativity, the not creative side, but I guess what i'm trying to get to here is like you discovered this very You know dry tome that is all about the mechanics and the technical and whatnot.
So where did Where did the creativity piece sit for you?
I guess it's like art, you know, like I also have this, you know, I don't know. I'm pretty into like clothes and all that sort of shit. You You know, and then also like when you make a plate, like that's art, you know,
like it's an expression. Yeah. Okay.
And so it's, it's especially a weird sort of art cause you make it and then it's gone.
Got
it. But that's kind of like, for me, it's always, the fun is making it like, like when I lived in Coburg, I would, I had this really bad habit of I had this massive backyard and I would, I'd had this weird habit of I'd garden at night, but I'd, just let it go wild.
And then I'd dig the whole garden up. Next morning, I used to live across from, uh, I think it was Vasily's, um, garden, like, store. Okay, yeah. And I'd go there, spend like 300 on seedlings. Completely fill up this whole garden. Really? And I'd have this amazing garden, and I'd just sit there, like, crack open a can of beer and be like, oh, yeah.
Amazing. That's it. And I keep going for like a week or two weeks and then I just kind of stop watering it. Really? It's brutal. Because it's like it's kind of done for me now. Got it. Like the building is the main thing. Okay.
So that's so interesting because I feel like when I speak to I guess people that have you know committed their Their lives to something, you know, that's in the like a culinary pursuit.
Let's call it often the thing that people talk about is the thing that drives them or what they Get the most joy out of is seeing the end result being enjoyed You know, and i'm sure you do get a lot of joy out of that But it sounds like people saying
it was delicious like that Like that's kind of validating
and it's kind of like, you know it's a it's a good sign that you did what you intended to do, but but it sounds to me like that's not the You Or maybe a better way to ask this question is that if someone, if you put a dish out and someone said fuck that was amazing, or if someone said that was fucking shit.
It doesn't sound like that would deter you from continuing to progress that dish, would you? Yeah, yeah, like I'm
still trying to make it better. If everyone's saying it's shit, I'm gonna be like, oh fuck, what's going on here?
But I mean, I don't feel like that would deter you to the point where you would abandon the dish.
You'd just try to fix it more. Yeah, yeah, for
sure. It does happen though, like I'll come up with a dish in my mind and then I'll start to work on it. And then after a few tries, I'll just be like, nah, this doesn't work. It happened with pork and Uh, beetroot dish and I was trying to make almost like a sunflower, uh, sunflower seed puree and then hit that with chicken stock and then fold it over like a cut up roasted beetroot.
It all kind of sounded sort of nice in my mind. And then I kept eating and I tried to do it a couple of ways and I was like, this is almost like a pasta sauce, but a weird like, like, and I just had to go, nah, I'm not going to keep trying cause
like it's getting too wacky. Got it. Okay. That's really interesting.
I mean, I'd. I'd love to unpack your process, which I think we're going to get to. Um, I just love, I want to capture something real quick. Like I love the fact that, you know, you saw this, um, connection with things that were really technical and mechanical. You, you saw that as a component of the ultimate creativity, which is the art.
Often those things are quite exclusive concepts. Like most people think about art and they think about creativity is like not rigid, not technical, not. You know mechanical it's kind of just this like very abstract kind of thing, but You know, I feel like the older I get and the more I learn about, you know Things like poetry and music and other times about it's actually it's all technical
Yeah,
you know and and therein lies the creativity which is what I think you described so well So I guess like that book.
Um, what what do you remember? Like what are some of the initial?
I
remember reading
the first Uh trying to get through the first section, which I think was dairy. Okay You Um, and just being like, there was some things that, it wasn't really sticking in my mind, you know, it's like reading straight from a textbook, like, uh, Yeah, I don't know, this, this, this much less than this, blah, blah, blah, you know, it's like, ugh.
Right. And
then,
so I stopped doing that. We're talking, it's like
real kind of physics y science. Yeah, it's like pretty, pretty,
yeah. Some little interesting snippets that would stick in. And then I spoke to my friend Dave again, my brother's friend, um, And then I spoke to my friend Dave again, my brother's friend, um, And he's like, we just, I promise you just use it as a reference book, like whenever during the day something comes up that you find interesting or, you know, just every day read one thing and I started doing that and it was amazing because you can just, it's got everything.
So, you know, say we, we got some pigeons in and I don't know, we're doing something with that and then it was bleeding loads and I'd look up like. Like, like myoglobin or something, you know, something along that and I'm like, this is so cool. So then you'd
understand why it was bleeding and what, you can control that.
Yeah. And then the information would stick, you know, like I still, I probably, you know, like I was still reading it quite a while ago. I gave it to someone at Matilda who had the same sort of interest and I was like, look, have this book, I'm passing it on to you. Oh wow. Um.
Hang on, so that book stuck with you from that job, all the way to Matilda, holy crap.
Okay, so this is a important piece of the puzzle. And I guess like, you know, to me, another thing that's really cool about what you say there is like, it's the application piece that helps the knowledge stick.
Yeah.
Yeah. So you were just kind of holding on to this thing and. You know, as you'd just be going about your day and navigating the curveballs and the inevitable challenges that come with a kitchen, you'd kind of just like, consult the book.
Yeah.
And then be like, oh, that's how that works. And then you would know how to control it.
Yeah, exactly. Or just even things that kind of, you know, Say someone mentions something and you'd be like, oh, I don't understand that. And you go home and you're like, oh, it's so cool, you know. Got
you. So man, that to me just sounds like you just at that point became a sponge.
Yeah, exactly.
Alright, okay. I think
I've been a bit of a sponge most of my life. Sure,
sure. I mean, but have you applied that same level of commitment to other topics? Nah, not really. Okay, it's cooking has been Except
for skating, I guess. Alright, got it. So skating
and then cooking. You know, maybe that paved some of the, you know, the, the pathways in your mind too.
Yeah,
thinking about it now, it is sort of the same thing, you know, like, like you go out, you see a trick, you try and learn that trick, you don't get it, you try it like a thousand times, you watch a video about it, or you get your friend to teach you, and then you get it, and you're like, you're ecstatic, I mean, just move on to
the next thing.
Right, it's, yeah, it's, it's like, It's so big and it's so it's such an accomplishment, but it's also so fleeting Yeah, because then there's just another thing to work on Yeah, and it's and it's so incremental like every single thing that you need to do to Know how to do the last thing and then yeah, and and it's so progressive as well Like it's almost you have to learn how to be really comfortable with failing.
Yeah, you know, which is pain Feel like a kitchen. Yeah Exactly Yeah, that's amazing yeah, that's a great parallel and So I guess like, this is really cool, I mean, this gives me a whole lot more insight into how your mind works, because you're the sort of chef that, I don't really know how to describe it, like I guess I'd say that one of the things I've noticed about you is, you have what I would call a very high culinary IQ.
Okay, it's a bit like an encyclopedia and like, you know, I'll give you the example of remember Eating a dish with you once we were out somewhere and we were eating a pork schnitzel You mean Nathan? Yeah, and and Nathan was just like randomly like what is the crumbing? Was the crumbs like the crumbing separating from the meat?
Just got to set it out loud, not expecting anyone to answer that. Like, that's a totally rhetorical question. And you, and you just like, Oh, well it's cause there's too much flour. And we're just like, what? You're like, yeah, like, you know, when you, when you're crumbing something and you, you put the flour on, if you don't shake off all the flour, if there's any excess flour, when it gets, when the heat hits it, the flour expands and then it separates the crumbing from the protein.
We're just like, fuck, okay, cool. And I mean, I didn't, I didn't remember that, right? Like every time I see a schnitzel, I look for that and then I think of you. And
shake the schnitzel.
But you just have like, like all the tips, I guess like, you know, that's what I mean by a culinary IQ. You know, you understand those things on such a, Molecular level and I use that term, you know with a little bit of disdain because it's been so poorly used in our Industry, but that's flat out what it is.
And yeah, I think that's really cool to understand Like that's where it all began. It began with that book and man your brother's mate What a legend for seeing that in you and and giving you access to the club, you know
Yeah, it really changed. I guess it kind of changed my life. Well, maybe i'd find it anyway But
sure who knows still give props to that guy.
So what about um Gimme, I'd love to know then, like, was there, like, what, so you talked about, like, you know, the pigeon and the blood and stuff, but what was something that you were able to grab out of that book relatively quickly and implement to sort of make success?
I've told you about this before, I think, actually, the, uh, the, Creme pat story.
Oh, please tell that story. I was reading I was on the way to work and just by chance This is actually it wasn't from that book like I'd gone out and I've tried to find because they at this point I wasn't riding my bike. I was getting the tube from like hackney to Uh, whatever it was, Stone Square, like west side, which is like an hour.
Ouch. And so, I went to a bookstore and I tried to find like a science y book that I could just read. This is after
you've
had
the
book though? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so like, you know, I was kind of, yeah, exactly, I was like, you know, what can I actually just read on the tube, because it's so boring. Um, before, I guess that's before you were like, um.
You know, it was before I'd be on my smartphone. Yep. Oh, right, right,
right.
Yeah, like, when we used to just read books. When we, yeah, exactly, it actually didn't exist. Yeah, okay. Um, and so I found this book. Like, it was a science y book, but it was much more readable, you know? So, um, and I was reading that on the way to work, and then there was this page on, like, the difference between creme anglaise, or a little section between creme anglaise and creme diplomat, and all this sort of cremes.
Mm hmm. And then it, wait, it kind of broke them all down and yeah, just what's the difference. And then like, if you put flour into a creme anglaise makes a creme pat and then like why that is, why it's stable. So just reading this, you know, and just, what,
what, what can I just,
sorry, ask a stupid question.
Like what is a creme pat? Uh, with flour, basically creme anglaise that's super stable because it's got some starch. Yeah, exactly. And so that you can cool it down. It's mostly used for patisserie. Cool it down and then, I don't know, fill up like a shoe. Ah, got it. And it's not gonna, you know, be all runny and horrible.
Sure, sure, sure. It'll last a while. Yep. Um, and then so, I got to the Royal Court Theatre, did the shift, and then at the end the boss had, had nicked off, like, you know, I don't know, ate or something after everything had gone out. Yeah. And the custard, I can't remember if the custard, like, had split or been thrown away, or run out or something.
I And then, like, it was just me and one other person in the kitchen, and it's like, It's like, we've got no, we've got no crème anglaise for this thing, and it's like, making one takes fucking ages. Yeah, wait, what was it for?
Was it, like, the dessert part?
Yeah, for dessert. The
post theatre
menu or something?
Yeah, I think it was probably just, like, some stragglers who weren't actually going into the show. Oh, right o, right o. Um, and then so, like, we've got no custard, and then I realised, like, Oh! I just read this thing this morning. So I got like all the ingredients for the custard, chucked a bit of flour in there, boiled the shit out of it, and it thickened in like a minute, and then poured it on and sent it out.
Like I probably wasn't, you know, looking back now, like, ugh, I don't know if I'd serve that. But still, like, we did it. You got it, yeah,
you solved the problem. Yeah, like, it was creme anglaise instantly. Amazing, and I guess like, that's really, I mean, that's a gutsy move. Like, Because, I mean, what was the, um I don't know, like, what was the, like, the social contract in that particular kitchen?
Like, did, did that, what was the chef's name? The, who, who was running it? Ah, that was Charlie Brookman. Charlie, Charlie Brookman? Yeah, Charlie Brookman. Charlie I just remember
the sous chef going, Mr. Brookman!
And he, and he was a hard ass, old school, traditionalist, like, toxic chef.
Sometimes he was lovely. He wasn't always toxic.
Okay. You know, it was one of these, like, Stockholm sort of things, you know? Like, I still look at him in a very fun way. Sure. Yeah. But, um, nowadays, like, you know, that sort of stuff doesn't really fly. Yeah,
exactly. It was still heavily, um, entrenched in the old culture that's no longer acceptable. Yeah. Um, obviously there's varying degrees of severity within that culture, but he, you were in it.
Yeah.
And what was, so, so I'm guessing then there was, there wasn't a lot of bad. We didn't want him to find out. Yeah. That's what I was getting to. That's the main thing. Like we
had to solve this problem or else tomorrow we were like. But which bit did you not want him to, like, did you want him to not find out?
That we'd run out, either that we'd run out or we'd broke the custard or something. Jerry Rig I don't think I would have told him. It's just like, you know, we put, cause if the front of house had known there was no custard, that's a big thing, right? The next day, like, comes in and. Yeah.
Well, cause you've got to put the plates out, right?
You can't just go, sorry, we got no dessert for you.
Yeah, exactly. Oh, sorry. No guys, no
custards.
Yeah, yeah. What?
Okay, so why I'm saying that's such a gutsy move is because it's like, there's a lot that could have gone wrong there, you know, and even to the point of like, you know, I'm gonna, I've just learnt this thing like today, I'm going to bust it out in this really high pressure environment where the stakes are pretty high.
And what are you like 22 or something? I think you said at this at this point. What the dots I'm gonna connect here is that like clearly you saw that opportunity as an opportunity It was just
a problem. You know, I kind of love solving problems. Yeah, it's like a Work people were banging jars the other day, right?
And I was like, oh, it's got an idea Maybe I could put in the back hook. I tried that and then at night time I was thinking about when I was lying there. I was like, oh, maybe if we try this It's got nothing to do with me so it's just you know, it's like this little If you solve the problem, I don't know, then I can,
yeah.
Yeah.
But I, but I, I still think there's something to that. I mean, like, you know, I, I can think of heaps of situations before where I might've thought of a solution to something but not necessarily cared enough to put my ass on the line to try to solve it. You know, say, I'm curious about like, what drives that?
Because for you, it seems as though. Well, well, clearly knowledge is a pursuit. Yeah. Right? And you found this unbelievable ecosystem to do that in that was really suited to you because you know, skating had already conditioned your mind, you know, in that way and, and, and whatever. And that's just a really awesome, I think that, I mean, let's just think that's great evidence that like, this was a thing for you, you know, like this is something that's really important to you.
Like that was almost a bit of a defining moment maybe. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that was really like, that was when, oh, that's when the theory really came to the practical, right? It's like this theory is setting me up for the practical and it all, it can work easily. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, man.
That
is so cool.
So Can we just stay on that? Well, can you just give me another one? What else came out of that book? That's kind of cool. That's similar to that. How did you solve another problem with like, science? Oh,
I solved so many. It's kind of how like I approach all of my food now. Okay, got it. Like I look at like the rosti I was telling you the other day, I'm like developing a rosti.
Yeah. You know, because I really like really familiar things in the moment. Okay. And so, I was developing it at Rostern, and I'm looking at it and it's like, Alright, potatoes, sour cream, so delicious. Like potato wedges with sour cream and stuff. Yeah, okay. Delicious. Yeah, so good. I love that shit. Same. But cream's always melting.
And you can't get enough in your mouth. Yeah. Because it just runs off the fucking chip. Yeah. And so I was like, all right, well, how can we do this? Like, how can I make sour cream not melt? Oh, all right. Well, I'll turn it into a gel, which has like a high melting point. And then work
on that. Epic. So now you have the sour cream with the hot potato, but the sour cream doesn't melt.
That's, A, that's ridiculous.
Like, you don't even really know. You know, like you just like have it and you're like, Oh, this is, this is really good sour cream. I don't even think if you didn't know, you'd, You know, you'd just be like, oh,
yeah, man, that's that's so cool I guess you know what that that sort of makes me ponder is um because I feel like the way you're talking right now.
It's it's almost a little bit willy wonka ish and I mean it is You can see how that's that like he kind of does that right and like all his crazy shit was was solving a problem Yeah, you know in just a weird obscure problem at times, but it was very scientific. It was very You know in that vein and I'm curious did that the question I want to ask you is Do you think that's what drew you to a place like dinner by Heston?
But before I guess I before I don't jump into that with you It's like I'm curious to know that Like I feel like Heston obviously and guys like Heston and Wiley Dufresne and dudes like that, right that they took science to that Super Willy Wonka place where it goes really Um Let's say extravagant.
Yeah.
Let's say really complex and and also let's say somewhat exclusive because the only way that you get to experience it is you know if you're lucky enough to get a table and fork out hundreds of dollars and then sit through 15 courses but it sounds to me like you got to that fork in the road and instead of going elaborate and crazy and and exclusive you kind of went accessible.
Yeah.
Is that a thing?
Yeah, I'm also just kind of going, like, it might be a bit selfish, but like, you know, like, what do I like to eat?
Right.
You know, like, like sure, I'm out there cooking for everyone and I want it to be accessible to everyone. But it's also like, this is all food that I just fucking love to eat.
Sure. But, but is that the only reason that you decided to zig when they zagged? Or, I mean, was, was there something that you felt about going that elaborate that wasn't I just don't really think it's,
you know, I don't really think it's cool. Right. You know, all this fluff, even like aesthetically, you know, like it's not really my style.
I'd like to have like, see like, Two things or three things on a plate that are just beautiful and pristine to me. That's like really elegant and Amazing sort of like, you know all this sort of these swipes or this something, you know and like a thousand flowers, but Like is that delicious
right? Yeah, it's interesting I mean, I think it to me what I hear there is it comes back to two things and Could be right or wrong but like the first part of that is I think sometimes in all the elaborate craziness the The knowledge gets a bit lost in it.
Yeah, and the soul as well, you know? Yeah, totally. Well, is the soul bit then, like the knowledge is getting lost in the elaborate kind of crazy stuff, but is the soul that you refer to the actual solving of the problem? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Like that's the, yeah, cause it's like the more elaborate you get, the less probably you're not really solving any problems anymore.
Right? Yeah. You just, it's like decadent, you know, smoking a cigar and shuffling with the, you know, just changes the whole purpose of it. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's full on. So, okay. Let's keep going with the idea of defining moments. Yeah. If I just throw that term at you, what's the next one?
After, after the science thing, probably.
Working next to Bobby Rust in Amsterdam. That was like when I learned how to be Like fast. Really? Like just go Especially that whole everything was going on my life at the time like this sort of You know, like you don't you don't really have to sleep that much. You can just work and And when you're tired, if you just go as fast as you can, you have so much adrenaline that you're not tired anymore.
Right. You know?
Right. Like you just find another
gear. Yeah. And just rushing, like I, cause I already had that sort of thing from service, especially working pre theatre, where you have to go. You know, there's like, get maybe 50 checks. Everyone's gotta be out in an hour, so you're just, you know. Like it was a bit more sloppy and you're just like throwing stuff and going for it.
So you just push completely past that point of fatigue? But then you learn how to just go like that in prep time as well. Oh right, right, right. Like you often see people, you walk into a kitchen in prep time and everyone's like Chillin You know, pretty relaxed. Depends what the style of kitchen is. But like you can, you know, Like, I went over to work the other day when no one was there, and like, I was just running around.
But I love doing that, because it's like fun, you get this adrenaline, it's like a high, I'm sure there's like endorphins going off. And that's how I learnt, that's, in Amsterdam, I learnt that you could just do that.
So it's almost like it's operating at a certain level of pace. Yeah. Which is like that, that, that pace that you take into service, it should be taken into the other, into everything.
You can just do it all the time. Yeah. Like, sometimes your legs will hurt and you'll be a bit tired. I mean, can I say, what, what, what you're talking about, it's like, you know, you're pushing through that fatigue to the point of finding a new level of performance. And can I tell you, most people would call that extremely unhealthy.
I always thought it was
like, kind of like I didn't have to go to the gym because I was, you know, like working out during the day. Yeah, got
it, got it. But I mean, okay, so that, so when you were exposed to that environment, Clearly it resonated with you and instead of, you know, like all the other people that quit West Point kind of thing, you went, nah, I'm gone.
I love this. What was it? What made you love it so much? Like it's almost like a drug or something. Okay. Got it. Was it, was it the, the feeling of achievement? Was it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Achievement,
adrenaline, excitement. It's like, Also,
I can do
this. Sure. Because I was so tired of first going there and like struggling to keep up.
Like we'd have to, I was on the meat section and I'd have like a drawer of one ninths to fill up of like, you know, brunoise shallots and brunoise preserved lemon peel. And so like nine things that I had to fill and I was struggling to get it done before service, before lunch, before we had like 120. Yeah.
And then when I, when I found that I actually, I can get this done, I just need to go really fast. Like, you know, often for me, the, the simplest answer is the most beautiful one, like just go as fast as you can. But, but,
but isn't there a trade off? Like the faster you go, the less precise you always
have to start off slow, build your muscle memory, and then just incrementally go fast.
Okay. Got it. But like, you know, like you're in a kitchen for say, 10 minutes. Maybe nowadays like 10 hours a day back then 16 hours a day or something And if you if you walk You know 20 faster, which isn't it's almost not noticeable, right? And then over that course of 16 hours, like you're an hour ahead.
Yeah, totally.
It's so kobe bryant of you I mean that's epic though. Like it's kind of really inspiring because I think that applies to So many things outside of prepping in a kitchen. Yeah, I mean, I, I tend to get criticized a lot 'cause I take that same approach into business and running meetings and Yeah.
trying to get stuff done in a day. But you're right. You know, it's like just those little things. Like I, I always think about if I just make this meeting I'm in right now, just that little bit more efficient. Like it's not even really noticeable. Yeah, but after i've done my 11th meeting of the day Like those are 11 gains that i've gotten that otherwise wouldn't it?
Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, it's
exactly the same thing Yeah,
so You know something i'm also trying to figure out is like, you know in that In that environment where you go into this situation where it's like, okay I've got a hustle and i'm gonna get better and I love the fact that you because You painted it at the start that it was like, oh, you just got to go fast You But I don't think that's accurate.
Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's just
simplified. Well, yeah, because it's
like going fast has this notion of just like hurry the fuck up and just get it done. But what you're actually talking about is going fast on the back of a shitload of precision, right? It's like being super, you know, having the technique and then being, doing it repetitively until it becomes such a conscious competency that you can then do it really fast.
That's really different because I think a lot of people that might be listening to this. might have similar problems, right? Whether they're chefs or not. I mean I could say that everything you've just described applies equally to baristas and floor staff and you know, bar crew and all the rest of it, right?
So I guess like there's something quite insightful in that. Because it's almost like you have to learn it slow in order to really go fast. And I think that's that's a step a lot of people overlook. And it's to their detriment. Yeah, you have to get it right. Or else you're just going to be going fast and sloppy and, you know.
Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I guess the, the thing I wanted to ask you though is, um, in this scenario where now you're suddenly in this environment of like, how do I be elite? How do I increase my performance, right? Where in that, if at all, did the pursuit of knowledge or the, Problem solving part of your ethos.
Was it, was it in there or was this a different thing?
Yeah, that's all, that's all problem solving, you know?
Like
I'm not getting this done.
Yeah. The problem is how do I get better? Yeah. Yeah. Got it.
You know, and you can always learn like another technique, like instead of going all of them that way and then I'll, maybe I'll line loads up on the chopping board and say for instance, when I cut something and I'm piling it up here, why don't I just cut it and then place it?
So then they're all lined up, so then I just turn the chopping board and go through. Sure. Like, remove a step, which is faster. So,
in the, in, in, keeping to the theme of, of skipping steps here, like, if we go a little bit chronological, because you, you just, we sort of jumped from the pre theatre, what was the restaurant called again?
Uh, Royal Court Theatre. The Royal Court Theatre to, um, Where was Bobby Rust? Amsterdam. Amsterdam.
Ron Gastrobar.
Ron Gastrobar. So that's a, there was a lot of steps in between there because I think you don't necessarily just come out of an apprenticeship or cooking school and then go straight into this mentality of like, Oh my God, that level is ridiculously elite.
I'm just going to jump right in and do it. So what were the lessons you learned along the way? That primed you to step up to that was working
at Phoenix, did I mention Phoenix? No. Oh, you said you worked there. Yeah, that was the place that I first came back. And so the head chef there, um, Andrew Beddoes, who, he taught me for years, but he was really, really brutal on me.
Really?
Yeah, pretty brutal. Like in what way?
Like the standard, the standard conventional way? Yeah. The stereotypical way? You know, yelling
and that sort of stuff.
Yeah. Like not, like, just, you know. That sort of verbal abuse. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but he sort of he was putting me pushing me to that level That I was like, oh like, you know, like he's cooking i'd never seen that before
Okay, like
what's an
example
like how he would how he would actually I really remember when he was when I saw him Searing the vegetables for a stock.
Okay, you know, it's like Like you'll see people just like chuck them in a pan or chuck them in the oven He'd like cut everything perfectly and then he was just like Cooking five in a pan until they're completely perfect and then placing them in the stock like there was so much care Wow, okay, you know and a carrot had to be a certain color and I just thought that was amazing like watching him cut tomato concasse It's like like it's it was so precise and everything was so beautiful Like, he was, he was also like a bit of a monster.
I love him now. Maybe again when he's sort of stocking up and stuff. I think he's also a change of the world now.
Yep. John Most did. Yeah, everyone has. I don't really
think you can beat around. But then, and then I remember coming back from Amsterdam and telling him like, like thanks, like I caught up with him, like thanks dude so much, you know, I wouldn't have been able to survive if I didn't know that that was, What are we going for, you know?
So he,
he set the standard for you at Phoenix, which was like, Hey, this is the level of care and the caliber that you need to be at. And how, um, how smooth was that process? I mean, did you just walk in and smash it or did you? No, no, no. I was terrible.
Really? What do you mean by that? He always says that.
Like if I meet up with him now, he'll go, he'll go, you know, like say we're having a drink at some chess. He'll be like. You know, when Alex came to my kitchen, he was terrible. Like, I made him.
What's an example of terrible? Like, what are we talking here? Uh. Like, you'd just be, you'd be turning up late, or you'd mess up, like, the recipes, or you were just slow.
Like, slow everything. I was just getting brutalised. Like, I remember, like, I was, I was so done with this place, man. Really? Like, I almost, I remember I almost quit. Like, I'd. You know, there's so many times when like, I'd go home and I'd be like, I hate my life, what am I doing? But I have to work. And then one time I was, I was coming to work.
I'd like slipped in or something and I caught the, I was trying to catch the tram. I was trying to like hail a cab and it just kept, I was, I think I'd gone almost all the way to like, uh, Conor Princess and Nicholson. I'm going to Phoenix, which is in Richmond. I'm sitting like, fuck, like, this sucks. And then I'm just like, oh, It's like whatever, I'm just going to quit.
Got it. I'm already so late. I'm about to thinking I'm going to get like. Absolutely roasted. Right, okay. So this must be dread. I'm like so late. Maybe an hour or more. I don't even know. Nah, that's it. I'm gonna get done anyway. So in your head you're
like, I'm just gonna walk in and quit and fuck it. Yeah.
So I walk in, the head chef and the sous chef So Paulie and Andrew, they take me out the back.
Like as soon as you walk in, or was it like? Yeah, yeah, as soon as I walk in. They're both, and they're both these like two, like you know, barely English guys. And they take me out the back. I'm like this little kid. Fuck. And they They started, you know, giving in to me, like everything into me and stuff. And then I just like, you know, I built up the courage to be like, fuck it.
Like I quit. It's like, I'm done doing shit anyway. And they like flipped really. And they're like, you can't quit. You can't just fucking give up. And then. Like I left that thing, like they were inside and I was like having a cigarette and I was just like, I can't fucking quit this place. Like I just tried to quit and I couldn't.
Like, they won't even let me quit. But then, I guess that was like a turn point, you know, and then a little while after that I started to get a bit better and maybe, like I don't know, maybe they went a little bit easier or they tried to train me better, but then, Like, and then after, and then when Andy left, we went and worked at Marmalade and Soul for like a real brief minute, um, and he took me with him and I was like, I was like, Oh, you know, like,
he really appreciates, yeah, like I've kind of gotten better, like you've proven yourself to the point where, wow, that's pretty cool.
How pivotal was that experience for you? Like if you had to
still, you know, if I see Andy, if I had to quit, who knows, it means I've given up. Would that have led you to potentially not cook anymore? Oh, it's hard to say, it's hard to say, it's so long ago, but like, like I would hate to give up on things now, you know, like I can't, especially in that young and, you know, being such an influential part of my life, if I'd sort of said, if I'd been allowed to do that and that was okay, who knows, it could have meant that, like when I was, when I'd had three hours sleep and I had to get up to go to work, I was just like, I shouldn't, I'm not doing it.
Yeah, right, right,
right.
But
yeah,
so that's so instrumental. I mean, I feel like in terms of thinking back chronologically and trying to identify, A piece that set you up to be successful when you get to the Bobby Rust type level, like I think you pretty much fucking nailed it. That sounds like the story, which is amazing.
And then I guess like, yeah, you're so right. Like that's probably also set you up with that same, you know, resilience that maybe, you know, skateboarding first implanted. Yeah. To just keep going and figure it out, and then that's kind of Yeah, or else
you'll never get to the next thing. Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like just getting to that next step. Um, so interesting. So, let me ask you randomly. What does, in a Bobby Rust context, what's reverse emulsion?
Reverse emulsion. Oh, this is like my um, the egg white thing. Like I've made this term up. Okay, where can you
tell me about it?
Like, I don't, that, that is not scientific at all.
This is literally what I call it to describe to people. So when they're prepping it, like, um, it's like an egg white emulsion. So the egg white is like the, the base of it. And then, so instead of when you put, you'll put like egg whites and yogurt and horseradish, like Korean horseradish in a, in a thermomix.
Like normally you'd start that stuff off with egg yolks to make like a mayonnaise You need to have like egg yolks and Dijon mustard and whatever's I'm gonna go and then you have to really really slowly pour in the oil because You know making an emulsion like that It's almost like building a house where you have the you have to lay a really really strong Foundation or else when the house is built it'll break.
Yeah, so everyone who's made mayonnaise they know like at the start you go super slow and then You Later on you can go quite a lot faster. Yeah, because there's more little you know It's more like oil is joined with water with the catalyst. There's more structure. Yeah, exactly There's more of them so you can go a bit faster.
Sure. And then how I describe because whenever When a lot of people make this recipe for the first time, they go to do it and they have that in their mind. They're like, this is an emulsion. So they split it, because they're going so slow. And I'm like, alright guys, this is a reverse emulsion. Everything you think, you know.
So you have to like, full speed, as fast as you possibly can. And then it just puffs up and it's done. Sick! Which is one of the reasons why I love it, because it's so delicious, so quick. You know, it comes out so smooth and silky and beautiful. So, I mean, you say that's not scientific, but like I mean
the reverse emulsion.
Like the analogy. Yeah, yeah. Got it. But the technique itself sounds Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's amazing. Like the egg whites puff up and so the air is grabbing everything and holding it steady. Got it. How do you, um Look, where does, like, the nostalgia or the story of a dish sit for you in your process?
So it depends, like, there's a few different ways that I'll make a dish. Like, it'll either be something like Nostalgia, like a Rosti. They're thinking they're delicious. Or it'll be like, I get a really cool ingredient and I can just have a play. Which is probably one of the funnest things. Like, I don't know, if you find some weird ingredient and then you can just test it.
All these different ways and go like, oh, what if we did this? Or, you know, what if I tried that? Um, I don't know. And then there's when, like, maybe you have a brief, like, all right, well, I need something that's going to fit here. Like, you know, I need something that's going to be like really delicious or really fresh, you know, and then you all sort of work backwards.
Sure.
So, I mean, again, that's really cool to hear that. Like, it's quite a mechanical approach. Yeah. Again. I mean, the, the nostalgia bit is, isn't necessarily, but. I mean, all science is philosophical, believe it or not. Yeah. Like,
there's still, there's still, like, for Mother's Day, I called my mom and I said like, Hey mom, what's your, what's your favorite dessert?
You know, I wanna put, I wanna do a dessert on the menu. And she's like, oh. I'm like, it's kind of, you know, kind of cute. It's, it's your favorite dessert that, yeah. Got it. That's cool. And then, um, and then she's like, oh, sticky day toffee put in. And I was like, all right, perfect. And then nice. That's the nostalgia, and then I'm like, alright, well what's normally wrong with a sticky date?
You got it, got it. I was like, oh yeah, the fucking ice cream always melts. I was like, alright, we're making an ice cream that doesn't melt. Okay,
how did, did you do that the same way you did the sour cream? a little
bit different, yeah, we just put like a tiny percent of um, agar into the, into the ice cream.
Ah, got it. I mean into the milk when we're making the creme anglaise. Ah, got it. And when you say it doesn't melt, are you talking like, it just doesn't melt? Like it will stay there for everyone long enough for everyone to take, you know, the Instagram photos, eat a nice amount of it.
Just solving problems.
It's so cool. Um, I guess like why I asked you that is, cause I think a sentence that has sort of come to mind for me is when I think about everything you've just been talking about is it's not really about what a dish is. It's more about how. And why the dishes? Is that a fair,
have I got that right? Yeah, sometimes, but also like I'm not super strict to anything.
Okay. Like maybe, oh, like I was about to say a steak, but then actually like, you know, how you cook a steak. That is a bit, the how,
you know. So what, so what, just talk, talk about that a little more.
Like how I'd cook a steak or yeah, yeah, I think maybe everything is about the how yeah I think about yeah, because I would never just put something there and go like, oh, yeah, that's it Like it is what it is.
Like it's like there's always everything i've tried to do everything for a reason even if it's like Putting loads of herbs and vinegar mixing that and then laying that on something, you know, i'm trying to smash flavor
onto it Got it. So you're employing the right technique For the right job. Yeah, we're trying to trying to but obviously that's yeah, that's really cool And so that's where the knowledge sits in because the more you can understand things on a more granular molecular level than the more Techniques you've got at your disposal.
Yeah, like the more pieces You have to sort of solve the problem. Yeah, I guess you can solve more elaborate problems. Yeah, which is really really cool I mean, it's kind of interesting, you know, I've told you this before but I'm a massive Sherlock Holmes fan, and so much of what you talk about is like his whole science of deduction thing, you know, and I don't know, it just, it seems like there's a lot of, um, really cool parallels.
Do you ever apply that, like you talked a bit before about sometimes it's about grabbing an ingredient and putting it through its paces and what not. Is there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That to me sounds like a bit of an investigative approach to Yeah, there's loads, even
like designing the new kitchen at the moment, you know, there's so much of that.
Like, we got up to, I think the, the kitchen drawer was said. He's like, Alex, you're on, uh, plan number L now just 'cause plan number L, is it? Yeah. So like A, B, C, D, . Um, he must love you. He is like, you know, I'm doing it . Is that why he cooked him lunch and bought him a. Um, uh, but so, you know, like, like that's the, the flow of the kitchen is something that I'm, I was, you know, I was going to the site and laying down this blue tape everywhere and then walking around these things and having the like kitchen plans drawing and being like, all right, is that going to work?
Like, no, like people walking past the site would have thought I was absolutely bonkers because I'm just like, you know, walking around this place and my hands out and then like doing these movements. Like, all right. Like, And then that's why we came, I came with the thing to have like an island bench because I'm like, what's the, the, one of the biggest critical slow points in a kitchen?
It's when the, whoever's on the past play team, that maybe the hotline will, will get like held up a bit and then they're going like, you know, I need the food, I need the food. And then those guys will catch up. And they can, they can catch up. They can chuck, instead of putting one thing on, they can put loads of things on.
And then there'll be this influx of food, and then the past isn't going fast enough for what's happened. I was like, how can we change that? So we'll make a little island bench. In between those two with heat lamps and a like, you know electric high speed salamander on top So then these guys can just be a little bit ahead.
Yeah, so there's no slow down. Oh my god They're always ahead. So then and then if they know they have that relief When okay shit, we're not ahead enough anymore Put a few more things up and then if If it's too far behind, the pass guy just quickly slashes it and hopefully it works, it should just roll.
Man,
this is like a fully optimised engine. Like, this is so cool. I mean, you know the problem that I hear you solving there as a business guy and also a once upon a time a front of house guy is, you know, the thing that I've always struggled with in a restaurant environment is the whole idea of like We're getting really, the kitchen will put out this directive that we're getting too busy, slow down.
Stagger the dockets, slow down. It's like
every, every chef I've ever spoke to just said like, Oh, they're just doing this thing where they just put all the dockets in at once. Yeah, yeah. And they always say to the front of the house, like, like, You just, you just can't put all the checks in. And then the front of house, like, you know, some, lots of nice ones would be like, Oh yeah, right.
We'll try. But then like, you know, like Layla, I speak to Layla and she's like, you're like, how are we going to not take their order? Yeah, exactly. It's so counterproductive. Like you can try and work a little bit, but at the end of the day, like, Everyone in the fucking restaurant wants to order. Yeah.
They're gonna order. You just have to be ready for that. You just have to do it. Love
that. It's really funny though, because it takes a lot of, um, What's the word? I mean, it's, again, it's, it's a, it's a gutsy hole to set up the kitchen in a way where you can solve that problem. Um, you know, I remember, like, um, yeah, I don't remember a time where, you know, I've ever seen a chef that's just comfortable with that.
You know? Let alone, like Kind of going, cool, I'm gonna build this kitchen from scratch with something like that in mind. It's pretty, it's pretty awesome. It's just like a massive problem. All right, like we have to fix it. We're not just gonna like, you know Man, I look I look forward to um, never having to wait too long for my food at molly when it opens Hey, i'd love to I feel like you know, we should probably talk about molly.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Otherwise like focusing will probably kill us. Um One thing i'd love to ask you is that like, you know, and and obviously we've been working on this project together for ages I know Probably as much as there is to know about it, but I still ask this question with um, some curiosity like I guess for me, you know your your part your your journey Has is quite clear to me now, you know it's like you've unlocked this doorway of like knowledge and you I guess it you almost seem to me to See knowledge as an edge, right?
and it's like You've just gone into places where you can continue that pursuit and development of that knowledge. And even when you arrived at places like Phoenix where it was like, Shit, I can't make this work. And thankfully those guys, you know, pushed you to do it. It then set you up to go into places that are more and more elite to continue that, that pursuit of knowledge.
And all that stuff's really cool. You then came back, right? When you came back was you went to you went to dinner by
Heston first? Yeah Oh, I was I was at I was with my friend Andy again The crazy one. Yeah, so like a few months just helping him out. Okay, where was that at the bot
the bot? Yeah Yeah, yeah.
Okay. And then from there you went to dinner. Yeah, and what was how would you describe the difference in? um I guess environment or caliber or you know, I guess any what was the difference between say where you were working in Amsterdam with like Bobby compared to what you were doing at dinner.
Like dinner was, it was definitely the most organized and not necessarily like elite, like when I was at the Jane just briefly, that was super elite and everyone, that was kind of like a cross between dinners, Like level and like Bobby's pushing.
Sure. Um, I mean Din is pretty damn elite. Yeah Yeah, it was you know, like they're but they're they're like world class, you know, Jane You're
talking like Michelin star Versus the next rung down. Yeah,
like top 50 sort
of got it.
Yeah.
Yeah, sure. Sure.
Sure Um, that's sort of like highest highest level.
Yeah
But I'm just also the way The amazing thing about dinner was it was like it was so strict It was again quite really hard when I first started, you know, like getting your head around all these things
And what was what when you say it was hard?
I mean in what way was it different to what you were doing in Amsterdam though? Well there because you already learned the ability to work that 20 percent faster and whatnot. So what was the next challenge? So
like just because it was it was so busy, you know, like we'd be doing it's that level doing like 220 covers You On a night time, like, you know, like working the Joss for a dinner is like, that's a brutal section, like a really brutal section.
Um, and the shit, like even, I remember when I first started I was on The Garnish and we had these triple cooked chips which sounds, you know, whatever they're chips, but Like, you basically get a box of potatoes and do all this stuff to it and then boil them down until they're knackered and then pick through them and like you're getting like a, I don't know, I can't remember what it was but it's something like 10 portions of chips out of a 20 kilo box, something ridiculous.
And like in order to get that that sort of stuff done it's just, like it's a push and everything had to be perfect, like every single thing had to be checked off and you know, and getting used to that. So there's another level
of finesse almost.
Yeah.
Got it. Okay. And what was it that you found difficult about that?
Was it just the the structure of it or was it?
Yeah, it's probably also starting on the garnish. No, great
There's a remember like years later when I was there and like someone started on the garnish and the sous chef Max is just like to the graveyard Normally you don't last
if you start on that. All right. Okay. Got it. So then okay then From dinner to Matilda. Yeah. What was that? So that was
sort of a change when I started there.
I was a sous chef. So it was a whole different kind of you know, level of like, all right, now there's Now I've gathered enough information to really be like an asset to people learning. So, sorry, was that your motivation then for leaving
dinner and going? Yeah, exactly. It's like, alright,
now I've, now I really feel like I have enough information.
Got it. So it always being like, I don't want to step up. I'm learning. Because that's, that's kind of the thing. You look up to chefs and, you know, Like in the past, I could tell when I'd ask a question, you know, I'd always be asking these questions, like the annoying kid who's like, wants to know more. And then you can tell when they don't really have an answer for you, or when they're bullshitting you.
It's like, dude, you were my hero before. So I always had this thing of like, I really don't want to step up until I really feel like I'm ready. And then after that, I was like, yeah, I'm ready. All right.
So that's what you felt. Was there a moment in particular that made you realize that? Or was it just a cumulative?
I think it was just by the time that towards my end of the dinner tent, I was like, all right, now I need to, you know. I need to go and do Sank and then my friend said, Hey, you want to be a sous chef
at Matilda. So did you see moving to Matilda as like, I mean, maybe in retrospect you can, but at the time, did you see it as, okay, this is the beginning of the development of my own personal ethos that I can start to articulate?
Like, I don't think I really, I didn't think about it like that, but I thought like, this is the start of, you know, like now I'm going to step into that leadership space, you know?
Okay. Got it. Got it. And. And just a side note question, um, you must have a, an internal, an inner critic, right? Like we all, I haven't, I haven't heard it, heard yours yet, but it must be in there.
Yeah. What does it sound like? I just think it's wrong, you know, I think it's wrong. What are you doing, dude? Okay, so it's kind of a discerning voice that says, Hey, there's something here that needs fixing. Is that what I'm hearing? That's it. It's like, something needs to be fixed. Sure, sure. And it's a spidey sense.
Yeah, or, I don't know, like it's probably been bad for previous relationships. You know, we need Like, like this isn't, this isn't right, no, it's just an argument, I'm like, no but, no.
Shouldn't be hard, right, interesting. That's a really different dimension. In a, in a cooking context though, I can see that as far as inner critics go, that's quite a healthy one to have almost.
Yeah. I hope so. Yeah.
Cause it's almost just, it's feeding in with that, you know, intrinsic desire you have to solve problems and there's a, you know, there's a bit of a spidey sense that goes off to say hey, something needs fixing here. And you need to, I mean, A, you need to be quite secure with yourself to be able to hear that and have that conversation and not, not experience it with the anxiety, you know, and that's pretty cool.
So, okay, um, I guess now you go to Matilda as a sous chef, but with an intention of, you know, taking that next step into, I guess as you put it, it was leadership. Yeah. But the way I see it. I hear that and digest that is like that's kind of moving into the development of your own IP. Yeah, and What was that experience like?
It's good, you know, like it was Like it was a beautiful restaurant We're doing really amazing food, you know, and my friend was the head chef at the time So I had like, you know loads of support and everything um Like, working with Scott has its ups and downs. But you know, he's a good guy.
But you basically went, how long was it that you became head chef?
I think it was about a year. Okay, how long were you there in total? Uh, maybe four years? Okay, wow. So after the first year you then became the head chef for the remaining three? Wow, that's a stint, man. Yeah. And what was it that, like, when you became the head chef, like, how did that feel? It was great,
you know, and so, I think it was about Maybe six or eight months into it, the, the head chef left.
And then the executive chef of the group, Stuart McVeigh, who's like an absolute legend, like industry legend. He's so good. And he's, you know, he's a really lovely guy. And he's almost like that. Like if you're, if he's, you know, you're in trouble, but it's not like he's gonna like bollock you, right. You're like, You almost feel like you've let down your long lost father or something like that.
It's like that's sort of like real respect. Wow So he stepped in to sort of like mold me and train me and he's like, you know Would you be up for this and and then like those that was an amazing gift You know again to take me into and he showed me I was just like by his side and And I knew what an opportunity was, and I really looked up to him, so I was trying to prove to him that I can do this.
Got it. So, like, that was just pushing. And it was amazing. Like, there's another, like, I'm so lucky to have had that Yeah. sort of training to go from that. Has that seeped in to the point where you try to emulate that as a later now? Yeah, for sure. Like, there's loads of, you know, how calm and cool he was, and like, he was always working, and Right.
You know, there's, for sure, like, it's just another thing that I've just grabbed and I'm like, everything I see in that, I'm going to take that and I'm going to turn it into my own, you know. That's
amazing. So was there, was there any dishes in particular that you can think about in your time at Matilda that really were the tying together of this journey and, you know, something, whether you could have articulated it at the time or not, whether it was conscious or not, or more intuitive, was there?
An example of a dish that you might have cooked around that time That sort of encapsulates this whole idea about pursuit of knowledge and you know science of deduction and problem solving I reckon probably
the duck,
you know duck. Okay. What was
it? so just to the the technique of the duck like when I was there as a sous chef we were The idea that was we were smoking them And then we were taking them over and we'd roast them in front of the fire and it was like they were really nice You know, but that was really done by You I don't think they really understood exactly how we were doing this because they were really inconsistent sometimes, you know, and we'd throw away loads of duck.
Oh really? Like not loads, but But some. Like when duck costs how much it does, like some is, some is a lot. Yeah. And then so, and then I developed this technique where I'm like, alright, well, We're gonna reverse sear the duck. We're gonna what? Like reverse sear it, like cook it before we render out all the fat.
Ah,
okay. So we smoked it at 120 degrees until we got to a temperature of about like 54, coming up to like 56 or 58, you know? And then we'd completely cool it down in the fridge. And then we'd, when we'd go back, then we'd render it. Render out all the fat. And then I would know that as long as we're rendering it fast enough and the heat's not completely going through Then that the inside is going to be absolutely amazing.
It just meant that we had like like the most glassy skin Perfect dark all the time amazing. Yeah,
that's cool, man so that was that's really cool because it's like You're right. That really does encapsulate Your journey thus far doesn't it? Yeah, so can I ask you a harder question? Yeah, okay This is like a really great overview I think of the journey that you've been on and you know as you put it your time up into your departure from tbh was all about trying to learn and gather knowledge and understand it to the point where let's just say you'd achieved a stage on that journey of mastery where You now started to find your own IP and you started to make that knowledge your own and to interpret it your own way And then at Matilda you got a chance to do that and now you've been doing it At a remarkable scale at hazel for the last little while, but now you're going to do it at molly Yeah, it's a space you've been able to design from scratch What are you hoping to?
What would you achieve with Mollie?
This might sound bad, but like, I live around the corner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like, I want everything that I want around the corner from my house. Got it. Like, if you walk through Mollie, you've got like, the restaurant with, like I want to do really beautiful food. Like, not pretentious, but, I want the menu to go from, you can just come in for a little snack, or you can come in and have a pasta and like a glass of wine and leave only spending 50.
Sure. But then also I want to have like, you know, 120 steak on there, which is gonna like blow your world. Got it. You know? And, but then, which is just, that's just how I like to eat, like sometimes I go to Carlton Wine Room and quickly grab a pasta and a glass of wine and then I'm off, but sometimes, like. I go somewhere and, like, I'm gonna try the best steak because, like, I fucking love steak.
You're gonna go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then next door is the deli, which is, like, we're gonna try and make it almost like you walk into Picture like walking into Italy into a deli and then you're like, Oh, I'm going to have some olives and some cheese and some prosciutto or like I'll get like a sandwich and all like, you know, and then, but also I can just sit there and eat cheese all afternoon.
And then on the rooftop we have a garden, like, you know, I live in this tiny apartment. I miss my Coburg garden, but I could like, you know, tear shreds and plant new stuff. So it's like, this is really, it's going to be my home. Okay. Got it.
Man, that's, that's hectic. I mean, and it's a great answer and I love it.
And it's, you know, Abbotsford needs a place like that, um, as you well know. What, what is it from an ethos perspective, how would you describe what you're going to cook there?
Um, I want it to be like, I want it to be. Simply enough that it doesn't scare my mum. Yeah, like, a lot of the time she's scared to come into restaurants that I've worked in.
She's like, what, are the seats, do the seats have high backs, and it's just too fancy, I don't want that. So, but also
with the dishes, it's like there's a bit of
And then, but also like, technical enough, So like for my chef friends come in, they're like, how do you do that?
Got it. You know? Yep. So not scare your mom, but impress your chef mates.
Yeah. That's pretty. Yeah, I guess that's. That should be on a t shirt. I love that. That's so cool. I guess like, you know, one last question on this and then I want to move on to something that will hopefully be fun, but I mean, this has all been fun, but I guess like, you know, you're clearly a very driven person.
You obviously can perform at a really high level. You're like a type 3 on the Enneagram, high achiever, all those things. Like, is that something that has really been a cost or a benefit to you in this pursuit of knowledge? It's gotta be a
cost. I mean a benefit. A benefit? Yeah.
Has
there been a cost? Like I dedicate my things to I guess more than, you know, like the work life balance, like I try to think that my work is my life.
So then there's none of that work life balance. Okay. But then like my mum will be, yeah, my mum will be like, Alex, you know, you work too much. Yeah, yeah. And I'll be like, but it's not really work if I love it, you love it. Yeah. Like I'm just having fun all the time, like sure sometimes not so much fun, but most of the time.
Yeah. I'm like really enjoying myself.
I mean, I guess that where I was going to lead to it, that was, I was going to ask you, how do you manage work life balance, but you just answered that very profoundly. So how do you, I mean, even if you think about it, you know, and, and this is a risky conversation because we, you're speaking my language here and we're both workaholics, right?
Uh, and probably, and not. Not ideal But I think the same thing and i'm like, you know, if I just love what I do, it's not even work Fun. Yeah, it's it's giving me joy and it's it's passion and so but I mean at the same time, right? You still do need to you can't just be revving it non stop, right? Yeah, you need to have balance in some way it might be 95 to 5 and that might be the right balance because it's quality versus quantity or it's quality and and not quantity but You What, what are the things that you do to unplug?
Sundays are a bit sacred for us. Okay. Yeah. Like that. And then that's crazy. But what do we do? Like we go to a restaurant and eat. Sure. More pursuit of knowledge. But even just like, that's, you know, get really
full, have a glass of wine. What about, what, what hobbies have you got that aren't food related or?
Um. Yeah. Hmm. Are you learning how to drive right now? Yeah, I don't even know how to drive. I don't know. Shelfing. I probably spend too much money on clothes. Okay. It's almost a hobby maybe. Okay, got it, got it. Alright, so then you know what, that is like totally fine by the way. I'm not trying to shame you at all.
Like there is And if, there is absolutely no way I'm even in a position to try to shame you for something like that, cause I literally am exactly the same, right? So let's, let's not, you know, put too much attention on that, you know, fear of the consequences that come with it, but what I, what I would shift to as I say, let's, let's leverage that a little bit.
Um, and let's just say that because you just have this like uncompromising, unrelenting desire to learn. And we go back to that term I used before that it's given you this very. Like, there's really high level of culinary IQ and you've become a little bit of an encyclopedia. I thought we could kind of round this out a little bit by just, like, throwing some, like, stuff at you that you can kind of, like, Use that scientific, let's call this like the science hour with, with Alex, right?
So can you throw some science at me that's gonna help me be a better cook at home?
Yeah, I can tell you how I would do things. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's exactly
what I'm looking for. So tell me Okay, let's start with an easy one. How do I cook the perfect steak? Well,
I'm not so easy. I you want that. I Could say it for how?
Okay, I'll give you the context. Like this is the thing with a recipe sometimes There's a way that I could make the most amazing thing, but then there's also a way that I can make something really, really good, really, really consistently.
Okay.
Tell me both. Well, that's, that's why like water baths are so used, you know, it's like you put, you put a stake.
Yeah. In a water bath, in a bag, set it to like 50 or 52, over your steak, and you drop it in there. Like, no one's fucking that up. Okay. And you just gotta sear it. Sure. On a super hot thing. Sure. Maybe at, like at work, we'll get a little bit more technical and we'll You know, like, I like to cook the steak directly on the coals almost.
Yeah, well, I mean, I don't have a water bath at home, so, what, what am I I reckon, like, you could, you could definitely rig it, or reverse sear it, like, get a big piece of meat, switch your oven on to, like, probably almost the lowest it goes, maybe like 50 or 60. Okay. And then just The lowest it goes? Yeah, yeah.
Okay. And then just Like, brown it really, really hard. Yeah, like on a pan? Yeah, like skillet. Like leave it on for ten minutes. Yeah. The best pan you, or the, you know, if you have cast iron or something. Sure, sure. And then sear it till you have that amazing crust and flavour. Uh huh. And cause it's so hot, it's gonna be raw inside.
Yeah. And then you just put it in your oven and leave it there for an hour.
Are you for
real? Yeah. An hour? Yeah. At fifty degrees? Yeah. Okay, and what will happen? So it's almost working like a water bath, you know. The reason people use water baths is cause the, the water has, is such a great conductive.
Conductor of temperature. So like you said, it's 50 degrees, that whole thing is 50 degrees, and it's touching the thing. The heat is going into it. But like, you can still set your oven at 50, 55 degrees or whatever, and just leave it there for ages. You know, it might not quite get to that temperature unless it's like a really good fan force.
But like, it's gonna work.
That's so cool, and it's also like, um, Super handy logistically. Yeah. Cause it's just like, oh I can just do that ahead of time. Yeah, just do everything a little bit further ahead of time. Okay, okay. Let's step this up. What about, um, mashed
potatoes? So yeah, again, the complicated way or the Give me both.
So the complicated way, like we used to do this at dinner. This is like the most epic recipe for mashed potatoes. So we would get potatoes, peel, wash them. Yeah. Yeah. And then backpack them and then cook them at, uh, 72 degrees for 45 minutes. 72 for 45? 45 minutes. And so what that's doing is, you know how you have like gluey potatoes?
Yep. It's because the starch molecules pop, like exploded. Mm hmm. And the starch is everywhere and it's sticking to everything and it's making it go gluey. So when I, you know, that's why people say like, don't overwork the mash. Yeah. Because then it's going to go gluey. That's because the starch is so cooked.
It's just ready to stick to everything. Oh my god, okay. So we do that and then we put it into ice which sets it. Okay. So
that started to cool. Hang on, hang on, sorry. Just, just, when you said that I just, I drifted off because my mind just went straight to the only way I make mashed potatoes. Yeah. Which now I know is like really bad.
You know, I just do it in the KitchenAid. Yeah, so I'm way over mashing
it. Yeah, like, like you can do that just quickly. But just don't let it go for too long. You know, I'll let it go for ages. Does it get a bit
like glue? Yeah, it's fine. I just always figured
it's something else. Like I've used the wrong potatoes or something.
Um, Okay, so sorry, so how do you avoid
that? So we cook it. We cook it, uh, 72 degrees, 45 minutes, then we put it into an ice bath, which will like set the starches and the fiber, you know, like if you've ever cooked vegetables and then tried to re cook them, it takes so much energy and so much effort, um, and then, so after that, it's completely cooled or maybe the next day, then we cook it at 95 degrees for like a few hours until the, like, you know, you really got to cook it until they're completely knackered.
But then you can just basically do whatever you want with these potatoes. Really? So we'd go like half, half potato, half butter, some milk to sort of stabilise it, and then whip it for like two hours in a ginormous, like um, stand mixer. And how you taste it Oh, because at that point you don't have to worry about the Yeah, exactly.
I would also pass it through a drumstick first. Um, and then how we'd test it is we, you get a spoon, you put the potato, the mashed potato on your tongue and then push it to the roof of your mouth. Mm hmm. And if you feel any grain. Mm hmm. Like, you know, this is so, like, no one's ever doing that, when you eat it, like, mmmm.
Like, that's never, no one's ever
No, usually they're eating mashed potato with something else as well. Yeah, like,
that was the test, and if you could feel any grain, then it's like another hour whipping. Really? Yeah, so that's, that's like the ultimate test. Okay. I mean, which is
ridiculous. But what I like about that though is in a way, again, if I'm having some people over or whatever, now I can do like steak and mash and do a lot of the stuff done ahead of time.
So
like if I'm having people over at home, I'm making, or making mashed potato for my Irish girlfriend, which is pretty like, you know. Yeah. That's a lot of pressure right there. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I just roast the potatoes on salt, so, you know, so you're losing a bit of the moisture. And then, like, cut them open, scoop it out into, push it through a chinois, making sure not to, like, crowd it too much so they don't work.
But I'm like, you know, it's one scoop, put it in, push, so there's least movement. Into hot butter get it all into the hot butter. Yeah, and then just put a little bit of cold milk and mix it in Got it. Okay, so
so The bit that I took from that is if I don't have the whole elaborate crazy stuff going on And I'm gonna make you can still make it delicious.
Just don't Don't touch it to the roof of your mouth. Yeah. Well, no, but what you were saying, I mean, it's about how do I get it as fine as I can with minimal friction. Yeah, you gotta go through a chinois and not move it around. Yeah, okay, got it. So that's, that's really handy to know. What about, um, have you got any good hacks for like a frittata?
Because I,
I, I reckon don't overcook the eggs, you know? I'm not cooking frittata. Actually, I cooked frittata. I was at a friend's dinner party the other night and she, and she was making, she was like putting on this whole, uh, spread and you know, like she was a bit, like, I don't want to say in over her head in case she listens to this, but like, you know, it kept going from, she'd come in and everyone was having fun and glasses of wine and stuff.
And then she'd come in, she'd be like, Oh, dinner's actually going to be at like 930. And it's like, at least I'll come.
Yeah. That's your, your cue to be like, do you need that?
The curse of a chef. And so, and she was, I thought it was really amazing, like she was confining, she had this pot of so much oil and she was confining all these onions and potatoes and I looked at her and I was like, that looks fucking beautiful.
Like obviously she's got some sort of, you know, she must be really into food and, um, and then, so, and then she took that off and she's like, oh, now I'll chuck her in. And I was like, oh, actually let's just put loads of flavour on these onions and potatoes. And then we covered it with eggs and I was like, now we just gotta make sure we don't overcook the eggs.
Okay. She didn't have a probe, but That's actually the biggest thing probably get a probe get a probe really yeah, it just makes everything easy Got it. It's maybe not easy, but it's a number. Yeah. Yeah, totally totally take the guesswork Yeah, exactly cook the cook the eggs to fit 75 degrees They're not gonna they're not gonna be really eggy and
gross How do you know 75 degrees is the number though?
Like i'm not gonna know that. Um, i'll just message you I guess
Um But like the egg the egg is It's completely set, really, at 73. Okay. So I would say 75, just so you know all the egg is there. Did you learn that
through trial and error, or did you read it in a book? Yeah, I read it in a Okay, got it. So 73 is where it's set.
Yeah, yeah. And that's, is that, I could apply that to if I'm just cooking an omelette, or if I'm cooking a frittata. Yeah, for sure. Right, okay. For sure. Epic. Okay, and so
Like, if you, if you Say for instance, you go up to like 85 degrees with eggs. Like, you know, when you smell eggy eggy, like that's, that's just the overcooked egg.
And then once you hear that, and then all the water starts, you know, you know, you ever make your scrambled eggs and then. You like might have it too high or you forget about it and then it really starts to smell like egg. And then it just sort of like all this water comes out when you put it on the plate and it's like watery.
You're like, Oh,
yeah,
I
got it.
Okay. It's just temperature.
Got it. Fuck. That's really, really good advice. I actually can't wait to, to start mucking around with that. I never get it. Get a probe. Yeah. Okay. Um, all right, let me give you one more. I'll let you give me, you can choose one. Okay. Either, tell me something I need to know in order to do like a really good roast chicken, or tell me how to cook brussel sprouts in a way where they don't taste like farts.
I reckon brussel sprouts.
Okay.
I really like brussel sprouts. Okay, cool. So I would always blanch them. First. Depends how long, because then you're gonna, you're gonna stop them really, really overcooking and that's when you get these farty, it's called um, fausty. Fausty, okay. It's like this gas, you know, that they put off.
It's literally a gas. Yeah, and the faust, like it sounds like fart. Yeah, yeah, that is so funny. You probably, you know how all these words are kind of, they come from the same thing. Yeah. So like for me, if I was cooking Brussels sprouts, like I'd peel off the outer leaves cause anything that's super green is always a little bit bitter and then cut them in half.
So then you get like a really quick even cook,
blanch
them for maybe four minutes in like really boiling water and then put it into ice and then take them out, dry them off. And then I'd like pan fry them. Wait, what does the blanching do? Well, so again, it sort of sets it. Oh, got it. So you're going to cook it to a really nice, desirable texture, and then into ice water and you set everything.
Got you. So it's not going to overcook, it's going to be like, really beautiful and green. Got you. And then when you go to cook them more, like, it's much harder to cook anything the second time around. Right. Oh, is that what, is that how that works? Yeah, all the vegetables, like all the starches and stuff, they kind of set.
Right. That's amazing. I never thought about it like that. Yeah, I reckon that'll get you non fatty brussels. Okay, I'm gonna try that too. Just don't, yeah, cause that's what normally like you'll, you know, like at home mum would cook brussels, she puts them in the oven for 25 minutes and it's like, I'm like, oh mum.
Oh, that's awesome. Alright, hey, we're so over time, I'd always do this. But I've just got one more question for you. Um, just a simple one. Um, like just tell me about something you've eaten recently. That you've enjoyed unexpectedly. Uh, oh,
like a sandwich from Tortas and Tacos. Really? Like I didn't, the first time I went there, the first time I went there, I didn't, I didn't I didn't realize what I was about to eat.
Okay, really? Like, I love that place so much. Really? What's
so good? I've never actually been
there. Oh dude, you gotta go. Okay. You gotta go. Yeah. So good. Maybe we should go right after this. Yeah. What's the, what's so good? Nah, I just gotta go back to Hazel. What's the
deal? Like, why is it so good? Um, it's just so much flavor.
I don't know how to describe it. It's like, even the chips, they've got this seasoning where they've just, it's like, Packed full of flavor, you know, like a lot of my food. I really like to especially when I'm testing it I'm gonna take it to the furthest point. Mm hmm, and then I'll bring it back you know then say like that's kind of the level that I want it because I want it to be like Full of flavor and really like in your face and these guys are just nailing that guys beautiful like beautiful me I'm like almost like a bar me tight bread or like croissant bar me and a panini or something Mm hmm Like refried beans, cheese.
It's like I'm actually so like I sometimes I'll be like Oh, man, I could really do a tour
right now. Really? Okay. I need to go I actually need to go and experience this. I feel like it's a bit of a chip buddy kind of moment
Yeah, and then so I'll my hot tip is I get the pork torta and then I get the the fries Chuck them in.
Fill it with fries and then just like lower it, lay it in this hot sauce that they make. Bro. They've got hot sauce on the table. Yes.
Alright, that's lit. Dude, thank you. That was um. Thanks for having me. Man, any time. It was so good to do that. I'm so glad we got to like, you know, have that conversation because, I mean, I've obviously gotten a lot of glimpses, you know, into that conversation just through working together for the time that we have.
But I never really got to get it. That clear and more than that. I'm just glad that You got to share that, you know, with the world a little bit because that's an amazing journey that people need to hear about. So thank you.
All right. Cheers, dude. Thanks for having
me.
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