It's one of the few ways in which you can get exposure to cryptocurrencies. You

cannot buy Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in your traditional industry

If I wanted to get Bitcoin exposure in my portfolio and

I go to speak with a financial advisor, 9.9 times out

of 10, the financial advisor will turn you away. Not all accountants are

crypto savvy. What a financial advisor can advise you on is whether or

not a self-managed suit fund is the right vehicle for you. What they can't advise you

I'm Matthew Fraser. and this is Crypto Collective. After

making millions with Amazon and e-commerce, I realized that

if I was starting again today, crypto would be my

first choice. I'm here to help you take your first steps

and build real wealth. Ready to set yourself up for life? Let's

go. Hey Simon, well thank you so much for joining me on Crypto Collective. It's

really great to have you here. I appreciate you taking the time because you've

got all this experience, you are a lawyer, you've got

a law degree, and you've also got a tax degree,

I would say. You're a tax specialist. Yeah, the two

evils. The two evils. But this is not going

to be a boring conversation. Because people will think from the

outset, ah, law and tax, we're going to switch off now. No, this is

going to cut to the core of a lot of topics that are happening

right now, including I'm going to drop it, unrealized capital gains tax, we're

going to touch on that. And I also want to talk about, of

course, SMSF, why it's important for people. Of

course, you know that all of my SMSF carries

Bitcoin, so that's going to be a big topic as well. So I guess starting off,

Simon, why should people have an SMSF or why

should they consider an SMSF as a part of their, I guess,

Yeah, I think self-managed super funds Do

give people a lot of control definitely, it's

not a Light decision to make when you

set up a self-managed super fund or you if you want to set up one up Definitely

need to get professionals involved see a professional advisor or

a tax agent to help you get set up properly

so then you can Worry yourselves about the investment decisions as

opposed to all the housekeeping of bookkeeping, but definitely SMS F's

do give people more control It's

one of the few ways in which you can get exposure to cryptocurrencies Yes,

I think that's a big ones So I'm just let's just expand that for

one second because people who watch who are new to this They may not realize this

and that is that You cannot buy Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in

your traditional industry super fund, right? You can only

That's correct. Not many retail or industry super funds

that I'm aware of have Bitcoin on their approved product list.

So if you want Bitcoin exposure in

your retirement portfolios, then a self-managed super fund

I talk about Bitcoin all day, every day. Tell

me, I guess, or to the viewers, why should people consider having

Bitcoin in their superannuation portfolio?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So if you consider Bitcoin

as a long-term investment a super vehicle like a

self-managed super fund is meant to be for long-term investments and

Also, I'm not sure many people know this is when she reach a certain age

and Any profits or gains in your self-managed

super fund to become tax-free? So especially if you think that

because gonna go from no hundred and hundred K us it

is right now to maybe 500 or a million dollars depending on

who you listen to or even if it's 150 K as a

modest Price and that's this cycle though, right?

I don't know. We don't know, but that's the talk, right? Exactly,

that's the thing. With super, with self-managed super funds, you can take

like a 10-year, 20-year, 30-year time horizon. Over time,

those lumps, those bumpy moves should

even out and go in the direction that you think it will. So,

A self-managed fund helps people be more disciplined so

then and trade those ups and downs and chop themselves up in

terms of you know gains and losses and just just to pull you up there what

you were meaning then is if people expose themselves to Bitcoin

Bitcoin traditionally has some volatility and while

it's in an SMS F fund or

some vehicle as you put it and there's less

likely they're going to try and time the tops and the bottoms of

the market that is going to hold it for the foreseeable future,

essentially let's say until they get to, is it called preservation age? Yeah,

So yeah, it forces people to take a long-term view

on the assets that they're investing in. Because you can't take

those assets out. You can't sell it to cash and then take

$5K, $10K out. You actually have to think about what 20, 30 years

down the track, depending on how old you are, where the asset's going

OK. That's interesting. So what you're saying

then, Simon, is that if you have Bitcoin, we'll just talk about Bitcoin as

opposed to all cryptocurrencies, If you hold Bitcoin and

you think that it's a peak in the cycle, let's say it

gets to 150 and you think, you've done some research

and you think this could come back down to 100, are you saying

that you can't sell it at that point and then keep it in, for example,

a stable coin within your SMSF, or you just have to

You can. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is a, you

can sell, but you can trade, so to speak, in a self-managed super

fund. But because

it is meant to be a retirement vehicle, the sole purpose of

setting up a self-managed super fund is for your retirement. then

Naturally, it just forces people to take a more long-term view as

Because of course that comes with more risk. Correct? Yes. Yeah, and

I guess the the the least riskiest thing to do

Yeah, and something like 80% to 90% of

people who trade end up losing money. And there is

asset guidance out there that says, particularly

for CFD providers, that somewhere between 60% to 70% of

people who use CFDs, which are very similar to perpetual futures. What's

CFDs? CFDs contract for differences, right? So

70 60 to 70 percent of people who use CFDs or trade CFDs

end up losing money So that's why CFDs which

are very similar to perpetual futures Very

Yeah, I guess the same thing can be said to like if people have money in an industry super

fund They're not watching what their allocation is

every day and selling it trying to tell it sell at tops and

buy back in the bottoms, right? So it's the same kind of of mindset, right?

Yeah. I think sometimes the

Yeah. And just sit and hold. Yeah. Now, I say at this point, Simon,

that the risk for people right now is having no exposure

to Bitcoin. Now, I have an online community. I

show people how to move from an industry super fund to

an SMSF. Not that I'm a tax advisor or a

financial advisor or anything like that. It's just that I just show

them the steps that I took. And then it's up for them. I actually show

them where to go and find the guidance, where to go find an accountant, where

to go to find financial advisors to help them on that journey. Now,

what we found though is that there's different ways to structure this as

well. So just explain to me too, would I

be okay if I was to say, look, I want to keep a portion of

my funds in an industry super fund and take a portion out

There are some people who do that and there are

pros and cons and I definitely

think the best advice I can give is

to see someone who can have a holistic view of

your financial affairs and your goals. Because,

for example, and this is not advice, but for example, it may be

sometimes worthwhile to leave some funds in the

industry superfund because of the insurance policies that are there. And

one of the things you need to consider as a self-managed superfund is whether or not to have insurance. So

there are a lot of complex... It's

So Simon, for someone who, I guess, is not

fully committed to Bitcoin, but maybe they're thinking, I need to

have some exposure. I've got an industry super fund and

I want to maybe pull 20 to maybe $50,000 out of

that industry super fund into an SMSF and then expose

that to Bitcoin, right? Would that be a legitimate step,

you would say? Because I also note that sometimes you've got to bring through

your other half, whether it be your husband or your wife or what have you, right?

Because sometimes when you're on the journey yourself, you

get the conviction, right? Because I know in my personal journey, there

was a point where I said to my wife, baby, we're going to

move all of our super to Bitcoin. Now, that wasn't day one

of me learning about Bitcoin. I didn't just watch a YouTube

video like this and just say, that's it. All

of it's going. It was a progression. In fact, the way it

started was my first purchase was probably, I think, $100 in

my personal name. But then very quickly, I decided to use a lot

of my company funds and set up a company account. And

then it probably was about a year, I would say, at least,

maybe 18 months of doing a lot more research, me putting

money into the investment, that I then said, OK,

I'm now ready to move over into Bitcoin,

my industry super fund. And of course, by that stage, my wife had sort of followed along

the journey as well. So I'm sharing the information with her, right. I'm just interested

from your side of things, the sort of clients that perhaps you might

know of and their journeys and how it sort of plays out.

And is that taking a portion out of the industry super

fund, if you don't have full conviction like me, a legitimate method?

That is a very typical journey that I see. So people,

they've purchased crypto in their personal names, a company vehicle

or a trust vehicle or even in their business. And then

I don't want to bet my house on Bitcoin. So they're saying they don't have

Yeah. So it could be because with living pressures these days, rent,

mortgages, school fees, electricity prices,

all things going up, people actually have less disposable income

these days. to invest in crypto unless you're a very high

income earner. So naturally, if you don't want to bet the house

on it, then naturally people think, oh, where is the next pool of capital that

I have? And usually super, whether it's

in a self-managed super fund or an industry or retail fund,

super generation is typically people's second largest asset that they have.

So people's minds start to turn towards okay How else can I

get exposure to Bitcoin and naturally people think about

super when they get to that stage? So your story is

Yeah, I did see as an unfortunate people

should just listen to this very carefully because this is so important you touched

before Simon on insurance and And unfortunately, someone that

I know, what they did was they moved their industry

super fund for the husband, kept the wife's in the industry

fund or the retail fund, as you would call it, and moved it all over to Bitcoin. Now,

they realized at that point, though, that any insurances involved in

the industry fund were now finished because

they closed that account. They failed though to

re-insure outside of that fund within

their SMSF or even just personally, because you can do it personally as well. And

unfortunately, what happened was they knew to

do it, but they kicked the can down the road a bit. And unfortunately, that person had

a very serious medical condition, which actually has put them out of work.

And so I think it's really important just to tell people that this is something that's

going to happen. And to take action on it because you

never know when things might happen. You know, don't kick the

And when it comes to sub managed super funds, people are very headstrong.

They see an asset they want to buy. It's like, I just want to buy it. And they're going to

use the self-management fund to do it. They'll make it happen. So

that's why it's so important to balance that headstrong

attitude, mindset, with someone who can take a step back, professional

advisor, a tax agent, or a special assessments administrator. They

can take a step back and say, hey, have you considered this? Have you considered insurance? Have

you considered these other aspects? To be

honest, administration and all the intricacies involved

in managing your own super is an afterthought. And

it shouldn't be because in that situation with your friend

or your acquaintance, it can

have quite unexpected consequences,

especially if they dive heads first without seeking

So tell me then, because I've had other people come and talk to me about,

you know, seeing a financial advisor or they went to their accountant and said,

I'm going to set up an SMSF and I want to buy Bitcoin. And

the accountant says, oh, that's a terrible idea. You shouldn't you

shouldn't touch that. Now, I would say that that's probably because the accountant doesn't

know what they're talking about. And I don't

want to broad brush all accountants, because I've got a very good accountant who actually

has his own Bitcoin and crypto portfolio as well. So

when I talk to him about this, it's like another day at the office. But

there are people who are still, I think, stuck in the

olden days, don't realize that cryptocurrency, and particularly Bitcoin, is

here. It's here to stay. And therefore, they're actually

doing their clients a disservice. So

what should people do then, Simon, if they're listening to this video, And

they're like, you know, I'm gonna go set up an SMSF and expose a portion of

my funds to Bitcoin and they go to their accountant or

or a financial advisor and they and They're given a very

negative message This is a huge problem in

the industry if I wanted to get Bitcoin exposure

in my portfolio anyway my portfolio and I go to speak

9.9 times out of 10, the financial advisor will turn you away. Because

I don't want to touch it, my insurance doesn't let me advise on it, so

please go see someone else. What that means is that people

who actually want advice, they're out there on their own. So

they have to go to find their own accountant, find their own Education

find their own material and sometimes that material is not from a reliable source,

right? so I think the best thing to do for someone

who's being turned away from the furniture advisor or

Can't find the right person is to Really

read up and just educate themselves. There's lots of education courses out there

around self-managed super funds there

is a lot of information out there on the ATO website and There's

a lot of information just by speaking with accountants. But

you're right, not all accountants are crypto savvy. And

I think that is something that a lot of industry bodies in Australia, accounting

industry bodies in Australia, should really get

on the bandwagon, I suppose, is to really upskill the

I'll just share with you a story, Simon. My next

door neighbor, who's in my commercial property, About

a year ago, they were setting up an SMSF, and they went

and bought, like most people thinking, I'm going to buy property. So

they went out and bought two residential properties. Now, side note, I

would never buy a residential property for investment ever again. I

would delete that. And people are going to be like, what? This is the Australian way. I won't

go into it, but I would never do that anymore. I may still consider commercial,

but I'm even selling off my commercial properties now and putting more into Bitcoin. But

this is what they did. They bought two residential properties. A

year down the track, I spoke to her literally on the weekend. She

says, Matthew, it has been a nightmare. And

I thought, oh, geez, what happened? And I remember at the time, I'd also spoken to

them about Bitcoin. Now, they were new to Bitcoin, so I wasn't expecting them to

just run out and start buying Bitcoin in their SMSF. But I sort of

planted the seed and showed them where to go to find some information. She

said, it's been a disaster. One of the houses OK, the

second house, tenants not paying rent, trashed the

property. They can't kick them out. She's been to court.

There's all these things. And I'm thinking, jeez,

you don't have that with Bitcoin. You don't have that. And so

she said, I said, actually, what happened with Bitcoin? She said, look, we went and saw our

accountant. And he's an older guy. And he sort of just said,

do not touch Bitcoin right it's bad, you know, he

doesn't know anything about it now in hindsight the property was actually the

bad decision Right, but he didn't advise them not to go buy the

property, you know, so I think it's really important that

people get advice by

people who are just educated in the space even if someone's educated

and says I think the right approach Simon would be it's

a volatile asset as long as you know what you're getting into maybe if

you if you're new to this only allocate a portion of your super

not the entire amount unlike me That might be

the way to go. So where else can people go and find then,

Simon? I mean, yes, they can come to my online community and

I've got guides there. But I'm not a financial advisor and

I'm not sitting down with people looking at their finances, right? Who

can they go and see? Do you know of people particularly that they

can go and see who can give the right advice on crypto? On

Crypto and Bitcoin. And Bitcoin. That's a really good question. For

me, my personal journey is that I was self-taught. Right, OK. Self-learned.

And I actually do think that is where most people

currently get the information. And in

saying that, there is, sorry,

I'll take a step back and say that investing in Bitcoin in your self-managed

super fund or anywhere is a very personal

choice, I think. What I'm trying to say is that unlike

some other asset classes where you may

rely on a financial advisor on price targets or they'd write a

research report about Bitcoin, I still think these days

When it comes to Bitcoin and the values and

the reason why it exists in the first place and the whole investment thesis behind Bitcoin,

it really stems from a distrust of government.

Yes. And the financial system that we currently have. So

one of the Hallmarks of

the current financial system is commissions So

naturally you have people like advisors who are spruiking certain

assets because they're commissioned exactly Yes, so behind

that backdrop it kind of forces people to not listen to other

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the CoinStash SMSF team today. Back to the episode. I

did this video recently and it got a truckload of views. And what

I did, I got on the video and I said, this is on one of my social media channels, and I said, listen,

you're supposed to actually go see a financial advisor about whether you're going

to invest in Bitcoin. Now, whether that's to do in SMSF or not, right?

And I said, why would I go and see a financial advisor? Now,

I'm obviously doing very well, I'll put

it that way. I'm trying to be modest. And when

I'm going to go see this financial advisor who's probably making like a hundred grand a year, he's

struggling to pay the bills as well. Like he can't afford the mortgage and

he can't afford to put kids through school. And he's going to tell me about

finances and how I should allocate my investments. I said, no freaking

way. I'm not going to listen to them, right? But I also

believe in taking responsibility for your own actions. which

is kind of what you touched on before is that you got to do your own research and

understand it. I'm going to put a caveat in there though, Simon, is

that some people are not financially

savvy at all, right? So they would, they

kind of need the financial advisor You know fools,

you know because otherwise they would just they would just go bankrupt

because they just simply don't know what they're doing Right, and I

put myself in a category of I feel like I have more announced

than the than the average Joe, right? so So

exactly exactly and and if you if you don't feel confident if

Perhaps, like you said, it makes sense to limit

your exposure to the risk by only putting a portion, a

small amount into something that... What

about though, this is another question that comes up, you know, you go set up an SMSF and

they say, look, you're only going to put $50,000 in it and it might be

all exposed to Bitcoin, right? And they say, well, it's not going to be

worth it because the fees are going to outweigh the return.

When you're setting up a self-managed super fund, you do need to

consider the fees. So if

you have 50 grand or 100 grand or something in that vicinity, that's

what I call like a low balance. Yes. SMSF. Because

The average is? The average Self-Managed Superfund balance per

Oh, Self-Managed Superfund balance. Not superannuation

balance like a retail or industry. Yeah, yeah. Self-Managed Superfund

Got it. So the 50 to 100 K is on

this on the lower end of that and I

Think the main if I can talk from a tourist attacks agent

point of view. Yeah The main

the main issue that the ATO has around these small balances

is the fact that people are maybe tempted to

take some of those funds out. Maybe you're... You

mean for personal use? For personal use. So for example, like

I'm short on my pay this week. Maybe I'll just take 5-10k out.

Actually, it's not fine. It's not fine. So We typically

these smaller balances. It's from younger younger younger

trustees or people who've Hasn't necessarily

been in the workforce for very long for whatever

reason So these are typically higher risk cohorts.

Right. So particularly when it comes to $50,000 to $100,000, if

you're paying, say, a $4,000 setup fee

plus a $2,000 or $3,000 annual fee,

plus you're not getting the insurances that you would typically

get in the industry retail super fund, I definitely think

it's Take

a step back and consider whether it is the right choice for

you. And what a financial advisor can advise you on is whether or

not a self-managed super fund is the right vehicle for you. But what

they can't advise you on is whether crypto should

be in it. Yes. Although I

think I'm seeing some financial advisors start to turn

their minds towards this. But it's definitely 9.9 times

Because I would be livid, Simon, if I had went

to a financial advisor and said I want to expose some of my superannuation

to Bitcoin and then 10 years later he said and they said no. And

I said, oh, OK, well, you obviously know what you're talking about. And then 10 years later, I

look back and think, you know what? That $50,000 I could have poured into Bitcoin

is now worth $10 million. And he said not

to do it. I would be pissed to do that. So

now that is a risk, I think, for the financial advisor.

Because could you imagine the backlash? It'd

Yeah, it would be. And advisors dislike

being- Losing. Yeah. They do dislike that.

But it's lost opportunity. They may have said, look, keep it in this fund

over here. You're getting 10%, so shut up. But I

could have been getting more over here. What would you say then, Simon, if you

do the numbers, and let's say you put $50,000 into this SMSF, you

bought Bitcoin. And I understand some people are saying, look, the

fees are going to be too much. But I think what's happened is

they're only looking at the fees compared to what it would be sitting in if

you were getting 10% on average, not if

you're getting 50% on average in

I do think when you set up a self-managed fund, you've

got to think about what you want to invest in. And with

any asset or investment, there carries risk. But

higher the risk, the higher the opportunity. And as we know, Bitcoin has

very high volatility. So therefore, the

risk of the upside plus downside is... But only if you sell. Yes.

But you can't really sell in SMSF in

Yeah, yes, but you may have unrealized losses. So

for example, God forbid, if

MicroStrategy gets liquidated or for whatever reason, they have

to sell all the Bitcoin holdings and Bitcoin crashes down from like 100k

to 10k or 20k. I'm not saying

that will happen. That's like a 90% loss in the self-managed super

fund. And on someone who's who's got 100K, can

they stomach a drawdown from 100K to 10K?

And I don't necessarily mean to point

out Bitcoin, but as you go on this journey, what

people typically do is that they start with Bitcoin, they get a bit of interest, move

to the altcoins, and then they go full risk on

and say, oh, I'm going to go into this pump. Yeah, exactly. But then If

they still have capital when they go down that path, I

guess people come back to Bitcoin at the end of the day. Right. I think that's what

most people have done. But it is, particularly when

it comes to self-managed super funds, it is something you

Yeah. I mean, people ask me all the time, about whether they should buy

altcoins. I won't call them shitcoins, I'll say altcoins in

an SMSF. And I just say, look, what I've done, I

don't expose any of my super to

altcoins. It's all Bitcoin. And you know what? I actually

sleep with peace just knowing that it's sitting in

Bitcoin. I'm not worried about any other altcoins because

I've also seen, I guess, in my very short time in the crypto

space, that altcoins, they come and go. They're

not sort of all there and I always say to people There's no nation

state or major institution. That's that's Falling

over themselves to buy the fart coin, right? They're all

buying Bitcoin. So what does that tell you? It tells you

that the asset and of course we know that Bitcoin is also now in the u.s At

least considered a commodity not a security and of course the

regulations around it, you know are all looking for Bitcoin so I didn't

know that Simon that that people obviously are thinking

about going more down the risk curve within their SMSF

I sort of thought I guess I just think that people think like me so I'm just going to

expose it to Bitcoin because why would you not though Simon? Bitcoin's

already doing on average let's say 50% compounding growth

Exactly, exactly. And have you seen the

chart of Bitcoin and the M2 money supply?

Yes. It tracks it very closely. And if you

do think that Bitcoin will follow that chart, M2

money supply is going right up at the moment. So perhaps it's a

I think it is. Let me pivot this a bit because you mentioned before about

Something which is I guess comes to the core ethos of of Bitcoin,

which fundamentally comes from the distrust of

government institutions, etc. And I want to lead

that into what we've now got on the horizon as far as

a new tax policy, which is Labor's unrealized capital

gains tax. Now, I've been known to call

it a theft of retirement savings. Other people see it as

a good thing, and they see that SMSF holders,

and this has got nothing to do with whether you hold crypto or Bitcoin in SMSF,

this is just in general. There's some people in the community

that are saying, well, if you have an SMSF, you're bad, because

you're simply taking advantage of discounted

tax rates yes within the within that but i

would say you know for me let's say i i've just

simply moved my super into bitcoin through

an smsf now if it grows over time to

i'm expecting it to be just based on 50 let's say or even 30 it'll

be somewhere like 100 million plus dollars it'll be it'll

be substantial probably more Why should I be penalized

for taking the risk on Bitcoin? And others have

the opportunity, yeah? Why should I be penalized?

It's not like I've actually put an asset that's worth $300 million

into the SMSF, it's just that it happens to have just grown. So

why would I be penalized? And maybe you can talk broadly about the unrealized

Yeah, so I think the two main issues with the unrealized

gains tax that are causing people angst is

firstly, people who are

most impacted by this, apart from the super wealthy and

We'll just stop you there. What is super

wealthy? Is there a parameter that is defined by

the tax office? No, okay,

It's a perception. Yes, so it's relative to When

So to me it means someone who's gonna be captured by this by

this time Okay, so what we're talking about then is those who hold three million minimum

in us in a SMSF Yeah, if just so, you

know, I know you know, but so others know if When this

comes in July 1, I think it's going to be backdated to July 1, once it passes through

legislation in the Senate, the Greens are pushing for a $2 million

cap. So more people will be captured into this. But so let's just

say that for today, super wealthy, which

I don't consider super wealthy $3 million, but let's say that's

I'm using that phrase, yeah, from the perspective of the people who are

being upset about this. Yes. Sorry, not upset about

this, but captured in tax. The

main thing is that it's a tax on unrealized gains.

So what that means is if you bought the property, say, 10 years

ago for 1.5 mil in your super fund,

And over 10 years proper prices more or less double You've

got maybe three mil or potentially even more sitting in

your self-managed fund at the moment You're going to be potentially

impacted by this tax Particularly if

this property continues to grow into the future. So

for example, it goes to four mil or five mil and But the property is a very

illiquid asset. You can't sell a brick. You can't sell half property. You can't sell

a portion. You've got to sell the whole thing. So this

unrealized tax component of it means that if

you have a large illiquid asset, in

order to pay your tax that's levied on the

balances above 3 mil, or the earnings above, proportion of earnings above 3 mil,

is that you've got to fund it either through more contributions,

savings, or you just go sell the asset. And some people

don't want to do that, because perhaps they've bought their retirement home

in their self-managed super fund. The second reason why it's causing a lot of angst

is just from a tax policy perspective. I've

personally never seen an unrealized gains tax.

So it's always been realized. So even with capital gains,

it's always about realized capital gains. If you're sitting on a 100k

gain, that gain could dissipate in

two or three months because of something that happens. So while it

just does not, to me, make sense to tax. or

Correct me if I'm wrong, Simon. This type of unrealized capital gains

tax has never been implemented in Australia at all,

Not that I know of. I mean, you could argue, if

you're a tax academic, you could argue that you

have unrealized gains when it comes to shifting assets.

Or rates. Rates. Sorry. I remember someone just

recently on one of my Social said rates could be

considered an unrealized tax. You're being taxed on the value of

Yeah. Yeah. Well one another example is if you moved assets from your

personal name into a company name like a Change

in the investment structure if you're sitting on an unrealized gains sometimes

that transfer from your personal name to your company name could

trigger a a tax on all those unrealized

gains. It's good market value substitution. So I guess if you're

an academic, you can make an argument that there is a mechanism

to tax unrealized gains, particularly in transfer between entities.

But this is something totally different. This is

taking a little bit step, in my view, a little bit too far and sets a

Look, even Paul Keating has come out and he said he is and he was the instigator

of superannuation Australia. He is opposed to it. Even he's

saying this is the most ridiculous tax he has ever

seen in the history of taxes. I want to know is

that. Is there a way, and everyone's

going to be thinking this, is there a way that people can get

out of this tax? Or can they minimize this

tax, if you've thought about that? Obviously, the

first thing is you can say, well, just don't have your assets go above $3 million.

That would be a way to go. Is there anything else? Have you looked

I still think that The super vehicle,

whether it's an industry retail super fund or a self-managed super fund, is one

of the most tax-effective vehicles that we

And can I say this, though? The reason why- Even with

this 15- Even with the tax. 15% tax. The unrealized capital

gains tax, right. And is it going to be at 15% or

It's 15% on the proportion of earnings that

are above, that are attributable to the balances above three mil.

So for example, if you have a four mil balance in your

self-managed super fund, the balance that's above three mil is

one mil. So a quarter of your earnings gets taxed at

the, with the additional 15%. And what's important to say is that

the 15% is, is a tax that's

delivered on you individually. So it's

not actually a tax on the super fund, it's a tax on you personally, but

Yeah, okay. Look, I think it's an absolute insidious

tax. It's a sinister tax. And I think it's going to

really put a downward pressure on the

economy. I think it will stuff things up, to put it

bluntly. I've heard that other countries like Sweden

and Norway either did have a unrealized capital

gains tax and have since removed it, or they still

do have one. Any case it hasn't worked out. Well a lot of

capital like capital flight out of the country to other

jurisdictions other nations So what actually happened? I think it was Norway where

they expected to have I'm just rallying off a number here five billion dollars

worth of extra Tax revenue turned out they got negative

1 billion dollars of tax revenue because everyone just said look we're out of here Yeah,

we're just gonna take our capital elsewhere. I

think I will say you are right that

the SMSF vehicle or superannuation vehicle is

still the best place to

put assets for retirement, yeah, for taxes, if

it's tax is concerned. The thing is though, I

think why people are pissed off is because the

governments for a long time now have tried to incentivize people

to put funds or grow

a wealth of whatever that's done

through bonds, through shares, through properties for retirement.

And now what's happened is the government has said, this is the Labour Party

right now, has said, well, if you've got $3 million in

this fund, you are now considered rich. And

therefore, we want to take from you. Now,

as I said before, I consider it theft. If people want

to go to my TikTok and join in the conversation there, they can do so. It's heated

stuff there, I can tell you. It's very heated. There are people that

love it. There are people that love the fact that people who have more

than them are getting taxed more and having part of

their retirement savings stolen. And there are people there who are completely opposed to it,

even if they don't have the $3 million of super yet. There

was a study done recently. I can't remember the name. It was, I think it was a,

it could have been a bank study. And it showed, or

an industry super fund study, that showed that even people in their 20s

now, by the time they get to their 60s, will have well over

$3 million in their super fund. So they will now be taxed because the tax

is not indexed. So it's not increasing over time. And of course,

if the Greens come in with their $2 million tax, then there's more

people brought in. I want to say one more thing, Simon, before you finally say. The

issue I see, too, is that this opens the door to

more unrealized capital gains taxes. Because I think what the Labor Party

is going to say is, you know what, we've got a budget that we've got to pay for

all these unfunded promises and ongoing expenses, welfare,

et cetera, et cetera. And we have to find money

from somewhere. So what we're going to do is because this tax has now been

put through on super above $3 million, let's

now drop it down to 2 million and then a year later let's now drop it

down to 1 million and because their whole their

whole mission statement is we have to make the system fairer

right which is not trying to prop people up it's trying to bring everyone

down to the lowest common denominator then my fear Simon you

can comment on this after is it'll spread to um

Other assets are the vehicles now. Do I

I don't think so. I don't think so I do find

it funny or interesting that Apart

from yourself. You're very early to call out the unrealized

gains tax But apart from yourself and

maybe a handful of others, but there was not too much media attention

on this proposal from the government before

the election. I think maybe it's because people thought

liberals were going to win and that Albanese didn't have

a chance to get reelected. For whatever reason, maybe people got scared

of Trump or whatever, and then the rest of the world wanted to balance it out.

Who knows? I don't know. The fact that there's so much media attention

now on this unrealized gains tax, a

lot of people talking about it. You're talking about it again.

I'm talking about it. The media is talking about it. Even some of

the largest asset managers in the world, in Australia, sorry,

I've seen Jeff Wilson. Yes, Jeff Wilson. So if anyone who's listening, Jeff

Wilson, go to his website. Is it Jeff Wilson Asset Management or something? Wilson

Asset Management. Wilson Asset Management. Go to his website and

Yeah. There's a petition against it now. So I

still think the tax is going to go through Parliament, both the House of Reps and

Senate, if I was a betting man. But

what it means now is that now that there's so much talk about it,

No one can really complain and say I didn't know about it. I didn't know how it applies I

don't know how it works. So if I got my tinfoil hat on I

think this is all part of the Part

of the government strategy to educate people about

what this tax means how it works And it's working

really well and people talking about it. So if that leads

to further taxes down the road on shares or

any or any other types of investments then

I jokingly said the other day, Simon, that what happens now,

does the government, does Labour Party come in now and tax my unrealized

death benefit? It's a benefit that I'm going to have, or

my family's going to have, when I die. Right, so

I haven't actually realized it until I die, so they come in and now put an

unrealized gains tax on that. I mean, the

whole tax is preposterous and I just think it

really has to be shut down. I really think it's terrible, not

just for people above 3 million, right? It's just terrible for everybody. For

those people who have got, who have basically got maybe $50,000 in

their fund, they're equating people who have got $3 million or

$5 million or $10 million to those who may have, you

know, like a billion dollars, right? That's how they kind of think of

it. If you've got a little bit more than them, it seems like a lot. Like if you've only

got 50 grand in your account and someone's got 3 million, you think they're loaded, okay?

But they're putting in the same basket as Elon Musk. When

really, those who have three million are far closer to the guy who's got 50 grand.

You know what I mean? And that's the issues. Let me

change tack for a second and just ask you a little bit more about end

of financial year things. You're a tax agent, so

you know, sorry, a tax advisor. And so

what are some of the things that people can now do in the lead up? We're only very, very

quickly coming to the end of financial year. What are things that I guess people

maybe don't do, but they should do? How could they

can minimize tax illegally this coming financial

Yeah, that's a really good question I think with Bitcoin above

100k a lot of people if not everyone are sitting

in profits so tax only becomes an issue if you're profitable if

you have gains and I'm sure maybe, you know, two years ago

or in the middle of the bear market, people didn't care so much

about tax because, you know, people weren't making

And just before you continue, your rich man's problem, I love that. Before

you continue, just clarify, is Bitcoin, does

it have capital gains tax applied to Bitcoin or is there some other type

Yeah, so one myth I do really want to dispel is that

capital gains tax is not a separate tax. It's not a separate tax on

a particular asset class. It's not a separate

tax under the tax code. What it

is is just, it's actually Any gains

from capital gain, your capital assets, get added on

top of your marginal tax rate. So for example, if

you're on 150 grand per year salary, and

you make a $100 gain in your shares or Bitcoin portfolio, that

$100k gain gets added on top of your $150, so your total income

is $250. So the difference between

the 250 and the 180, which is where the marginal tax rate

kicks in, the highest marginal tax rate kicks in, that gets taxed at the highest

marginal tax rate. So one of

the myths I do want to dispel is that capital gains tax is not a separate tax.

Yeah. Is there capital gains discounts though, if

Yes. So one of the unique aspects of the capital gains tax regime

is that if you hold an asset for more than 12 months, you

get a 50% reduction in

how much of that gain gets added into your income.

So I think discount is a bit confusing

terminology, but it is the Fisher terminology but actually what

it is, it's a reduction in the gain that gets added to your

income. So there's no specific tax for

And of course, this is only going to apply to people within this financial year who have

sold Bitcoin. Yes, it's what I want to confuse the two right I

want to say all this this unrealized couple guys This is just this financial

Yes for people who have sold Bitcoin And

now there will be a tax that will be applicable Correct

and go back to your original question about how we can save how

people can save tax first and foremost is Do

you have losses from prior years? It's very tempting

for people to, if you made a loss in years, like, oh, don't worry about it. I know

I made like a 10K loss here, but I'm not going to be paying tax on it anyway, so

Why would they do that though? Is that because they don't know that they can reduce their

Probably make sure like if you if I put

up my phantom wallet with the where we trade meme coins I'm probably

a bit ashamed of that as well Put

ten grand and nothing nothing nothing's come out of it But it's

actually really important that if you if you know, you've made a loss in prior years But

it's not recording your tax return or

you haven't disclosed to your accountant then go back and to

your accountant and say, hey, these are the records. I actually made

a loss in prior years. So then this year, if you do plan on

selling this year, then you can reduce

OK. I've got another question for you because I know this is going to be on everyone's mind.

They're sitting on altcoins. Altcoins haven't done too well in

the past 12 months, basically. Not even

for myself, I've got some altcoins sitting in my company fund, or

my company vehicle, and a

lot of them are red. I'm not ashamed to say, guys, some

of them are even negative 80%, right? Now,

for me personally, just so everyone knows, The majority of

my funds are in Bitcoin. Right, I'm talking like 80, would

be probably closer to 90% of my funds. So when I've got altcoins, they

were just like gambles and I knew that going in, okay. But

the question is, Simon, should I sell those altcoins now,

realize the loss, take it off my taxable income,

Or should I just sort of sit on it and then hope for

Yeah, so unrealized losses have no use to you. If

anyone's listening, you need to realize those losses. So I need to

sell. Exactly. You need to sell those assets in order to

trigger a capital gains event. And that crystallizes the capital gains

loss, which you can then use to reduce your capital gains

in the future or in the current year. So definitely, yes.

If you're sitting on these coins and you don't think

there's any hope that they'll go up in value, sell

them. Crystallize the loss. Reduce your current year tax. If

Yeah, I guess if you do

think that it will potentially have

a revival, then you can consider buying back at

a later stage. So yeah,

there's nothing stopping you from buying back the asset after you've sold it.

So I guess the point then is that if you want to realize a loss,

reduce your taxable income, if you think that if the altcoin is never

going to come back again, and you think now's the time, probably before

this end of financial year would be a time to sell it, realize a loss, and

And when it comes to capital gains losses, they can only

be used to reduce your capital gains. So

if you've- Not your day job, essentially. Essentially.

Oh, yeah. Okay, but you but you added on though for the When

you're working, yeah Yeah, so it's it's it's

one of those Ways in which the the

tax laws gets you So I just

want to make that clear to people listening if you've got a capital gain

The gain is added to your taxable income. Let's

say your PAYG job if you're an individual and

then you pay Tax on that portion overall, right? That's the short

version. But if you make a loss, they don't say, well, you

weren't $150,000 through your day job. You

made a loss of $50,000. So now you only have to pay tax on $100,000. That's

Oh, they've got us.

It's not the most intuitive way

that the current law applies. But it is what it

is currently. That that's why I think I

think getting Getting really good tax advice.

Yeah as well Here's another myth that I think people have is that I

don't want to go to an accountant now This is regardless of crypto or anything, right?

I just I don't think I want accountant to do my tax return because

it's gonna cost like I don't have much of this these days It's like 500 bucks

for an average one or something. Is it something like that? Yeah 500 Why

If you've made money in crypto in the last 12 months,

and you've made a lot of it, and by I mean a lot, I

don't mean like hundreds of millions, I mean even if it's like 100k, And

you're sitting on unrealized gains. Or

you've got a day job that's very well-paying and you

want to reduce the tax that you have. Having

a really good accountant, whether it's crypto or otherwise, can

pay its own dividends. I'll give you an example. So, there

is a rule in the tax legislation that

lets you roll over your gains from your

individual trading or investing into a company and

pays, essentially defer the

tax. In order to utilize that, there's very specific

But say for example, you're sitting on a million one million

dollar So sorry 100k unrealized gain

on Bitcoin and you're trading in

and out of it and you're you know, you think that you know, you can grow your

100k gain to 200k 300k 400k

because you found this amazing trading strategy or

this alpha that you have and Then potentially it's worth moving

that trading into a company structure Because

a company tax the company tax rate is somewhere between 25 and

30 percent depending on the type of entity resin individual name

it can go as high as 47 percent including Medicaid levy So,

and there are ways to transfer your trading

and your personal name into a company without triggering any

of those intermediate taxing

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's amazing. And

I think basically what you're saying is you should

spend the money to go see an accountant because ultimately they can save you money.

So I just want to say we're running out of time. I'm going to have to get you

back on another episode because there's so many other things I want to talk to you about, including

what's a really big topic right now. And this is probably coming off the

back of unrealized capital gains taxes. Should we set

up a bank account in another country and

pay zero tax? Is it even possible? But I'm sure you can answer that into the

future. I want to say, Simon Ho, thank you so much for joining me on Crypto Collective.

It's been an absolute pleasure. And ladies and gentlemen, if you've got any questions

for Simon or myself that we didn't cover today, put them in

the comments, and we'll get to those later. And I look forward to

seeing Simon in a future episode. Thank you, Matt. Thanks for having me. Cheers. Thanks

for tuning in to Crypto Collective. If you've enjoyed this episode, the

best way to show your support is to leave a five-star review on

Apple Podcast or Spotify and make sure to subscribe to

the YouTube channel so you don't miss an episode. You can also find more

of me at I'm Matthew Fraser on all