I'm Rick Esselstyn and you're listening to the Plan Strong podcast.

For well over a decade, we have poured ourselves into making plant based living accessible, impactful and appealing for as many people as possible.

And we know that our retreats transform lives, but they can't reach everyone.

And while our coaching program has tested many tech partners, it wasn't until we connected with today's guests that we found the right fit to bring Planstrong to a broader audience in a way that could truly make waves.

Today, I'm excited to unveil the Plan Strong by Metabyte corporate wellness program.

This is a comprehensive wellness program that we have been piloting for years with a manufacturing company with results that are frankly quite jaw dropping.

Now, this program, what it does is it fast tracks access to plant based nutrition education and all the support that comes with it, with the goal being to spark a movement towards healthier workplaces by integrating plant based wellness into work culture.

Now, our vision is to partner with companies that are ready to invest in the health of their people using the power of nutrition as the main driving tool that's going to reduce health care costs, boost energy, reduce sick days, and elevate quality of life.

We are here to prove how easy and effective it can be to create a ripple of wellness starting right at work.

So I would encourage you pull up a chair and dive into this conversation with David Goldman and Michael Kwashi from Metabyte.

And let's discover how we're bringing the power of plants into the workplace.

And who knows, this could be the spark that opens doors to your company.

David and Michael, welcome to the Plan Strong podcast.

It is an absolute pleasure to have you guys here.

And you know, first off, David, where am I talking to you from?

Are you in Bend, Oregon by chance?

Bend, Oregon, baby.

Bend, Oregon, baby.

And then, Michael, don't tell me you're over in some far off land.

I am in Helsinki, Finland.

Helsinki, Finland.

Wow.

Incredible.

Well, you guys, I want to share some breaking news with you today.

I know, Michael, or rather David, you're on top of this, but Starbucks just announced today that they're not going to upcharge any longer for non dairy milks in coffee.

How about that?

That is awesome.

I don't go to Star, I don't go to Starbucks, but I know a lot of Starbucks plant based fans are happy about that.

What I want to talk about today though is really a pretty phenomenal partnership slash collaboration that Plan Strong has had with you guys, specifically around your company called Metabyte.

Before we dive into that, I want to back up for a sec and talk about each one of you.

David Goldman, for those of you that don't know, he's a dear friend to Plant Strong.

He is no stranger to the Plant based movement.

For those of you that want to go back and listen, he was on episode 117 of the Plant Strong podcast.

One of the coolest things that I think that you have done, David, and you've done a lot of cool things, but you are the chief scientific officer for the Game Changers documentary that came out in 2019.

And my understanding, David, tell me if, if this is how you see it, is it is now the most watched documentary on the planet with over 200 million views?

Is that what you've heard?

That's awesome.

I honestly don't know.

But what I do know is there was a fantastic firefighter in that film.

I don't know if you've seen it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That there's David for you guys, but yes.

So the Game Changers, he's very, very modest about it all.

But, but for the last several years, you have been the director of research at Metabyte, which as I said, is kind of a new partner for Plan Strong.

Michael Korshy.

What a last name.

Where does that last name come from, Michael?

It's Ghanaian.

My dad's from Ghana.

Okay, and what did you say it stands for?

Born on Sunday.

And were you born on Sunday?

No, I was born on Friday the 13th, but that's okay.

Oh boy.

Oh boy.

Now you, you're a former defensive tackle in the NFL turned CEO and you're now a champion for plant based health.

So, David and Michael, it is a pleasure to have you guys.

Let me give the audience a little backdrop here of, of, of how we kind of came together.

So many of you probably know that for many years we have been running experimental programs for companies that are interested in injecting plant based education into their corporate wellness settings.

But until very, very recently with Metabyte, we were never able to find a cost effective way to deliver the jaw dropping results that people achieve at our retreats.

And David and Michael, we had the pleasure of hosting you at one of our Black Mountain retreats.

I think it was two years ago in, in Black Mountain.

But we've never been able to figure out a way to do it in a way that's cost effective and also scalable.

Ergo, enter you guys and Metabyte.

And today what we want to do is we want to unveil a really exciting initiative that all of our listeners will appreciate and potentially it's a, it'll be a good fit to bring this program to your work site.

And this can have some potentially next level impact that many of us have been striving for, which is to reach people where they are, equipping them with this life saving information and then supporting them and reaching their goals.

So with that, with that as kind of the backdrop, let's dive into you guys.

So David, as a nutrition and exercise scientist, I'd love for you to share a bit about your background and what exactly was it that drew you to the field of nutrition and fitness in the first place?

Yeah, happy to, happy to share that.

So my background is like you mentioned, it's an exercise science and nutrition.

So I'm a strength and conditioning specialist, an exercise physiologist, I'm a registered dietitian.

And so my background is, spans the gamut in obesity research.

I worked at St.

Luke's Roosevelt Hospital in New York City.

It was in Division 1 athletics, NCAA, it was for Columbia University.

I also taught graduate coursework there.

I worked in corporate health and fitness at Facebook headquarters in Northern California and I've worked at clinical inpatient, outpatient facilities like True North Health Center.

I imagine you have some, some listeners who are well familiar with that fantastic establishment.

So absolutely, yeah, it's a great place.

Like you mentioned, I was a chief science advisor to the Game Changers.

That was such a absolutely fantastic, rewarding experience.

And yeah, I've also been like a Fulbright specialist and visiting researcher now with the University of Helsinki.

So yeah, I've done a whole bunch of stuff in this space.

I've really loved it.

It's been really rewarding and mentioned or you asked what brought me into this field and really it's personal, it's that I used to be obese and I was tormented for it and it was really difficult.

And so I learned to use exercise and nutrition as tools to reshape my physique, my athletics, my health.

And it's been really empowering.

And so now I just take a lot of pleasure and meaning from using nutrition and exercise as tools to support as many people as humanly possible.

How old were you when you decided to really like address your personal obesity and jump in?

Oh, that's a good question.

I think it was right around the age when I want to say something around junior high school and that was, you know.

Right.

That's right.

When you're, you're so impressionable and, and things that people say can Stick and hit.

And, and so, yeah, that there was a whole lot of difficulty then.

And so, yeah, that was the point where I, I decided I want to begin high school and the rest of my adult life and, and with an approach.

And then.

How old were you when you, when you discovered plant based nutrition?

So when I was about five years old, my mom read to me a book called Diet for New America.

And so when I was five, I, I actually became vegetarian.

I was vegetarian until I was 20 and then I started eating a whole bunch of meat at 20 until I was 27, thinking that I had to do that in order to be athletic, in order to, to be strong and fit and have muscle.

And I, that's when I went back to graduate school and in that period and I was like, oh, wow, it turns out I was completely mistaken.

I didn't need these things.

And in fact, I was actually undermining the things that really matter most to me.

So at my 27th birthday, so that's 13 years ago now, I was like, game over for me.

I'm starting a whole new game.

And that's when I went plant based 100% and I'm not looking back.

Wow, how old are you now?

40.

40.

Wow.

You're still a spring chicken.

That's great.

Or rather a spring piece of kale.

Curly.

Curly kale.

So I want to ask you this.

So nutrition science, you are, you are like, you are one of, I mean, I talk to people and they say, man, that David Goldman, he is one of the most well read, knowledgeable people in the field of nutrition science of anybody on the planet.

And so my question to you is like, you have decided to partner up with Michael and Metabyte and you want to make a difference in corporate wellness.

And so why do you think it is that companies are now taking a serious interest in this?

That's a great question and thank you for the compliment, which I don't feel I deserve, but appreciate that.

And you mentioned that people have been saying really nice things and just tell my mom I say hi because I feel like she's probably the only one who is saying these things, but I appreciate that.

Yeah.

You know, so talking about corporate wellness and plant based eating and I just want to run us back a few years now to a wonderful set of publications.

This was Dr.

Neil Barnard from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

And he was trailblazing.

He researched the effects of plant based eating on a whole bunch of really relevant outcomes.

They did this at Geico at a GEICO location.

I Think multiple Geico locations.

And they found that when people were eating this way, a whole food plant based diet, they experienced weight loss, they had drops in LDL cholesterol, the bad cholesterol, they had improvements in their hemoglobin A1C.

Right.

This is sort of a measure of blood sugar control.

And how close or far away are you from diabetes?

Physical functioning improved.

So those are a bunch of the physical health components.

There are also a whole bunch of mental health improvements that people reported, including was better energy, higher quality sleep, more vitality, there was less depression, less anxiety, less fatigue.

And then also on the actual work front, the productivity side of this, and this is where I'll get right directly to your question, is that people were more productive.

There were between a 40 and 46% drop in health related impairments in productivity.

And people had those gains in productivity both at work and at home.

So when you're asking why are people taking such an interest in, in improving the diet and lifestyle elements of their employees, they recognize there are real serious returns on investment for investing in the people who are investing their time into growing your business and making your venture fruitful.

So it's really a two way street and the numbers are in and it's compelling.

And I think people are starting to take notice of this.

And when they're really forward thinking and looking ahead, so how can I really grow my business in the long term?

They, they can see these numbers, they, they're impactful.

Right.

So you specifically, you know, tell me how your research has specifically shaped this wellness program, particularly around group coaching and kind of meeting people where they are.

Yeah, so the group coaching, it's, it's incredible.

You know, we have, obviously we have the option to work with groups, we can work with individuals.

It's so much more compelling, so much more effective to work with groups it seems than individuals.

When people take on these challenges with comrades, it changes the whole experience.

People learn from each other and people are inevitably going to struggle and this support goes such a long way.

So rather than sort of have a, you know, like a parent come in and try to have the kids all do the right thing, rather you orient the kids so that they're motivating each other.

We, I do this, I have a 10 and 9 year old who I do this with all the time, where if I try to just point them in a particular direction, it's a completely different situation than if they're driving and, and they don't feel alone.

Sometimes they can look at the health professional and say yeah, but you must have already figured all this out, and I'm just new to this.

Well, that's great.

Let's bring you side by side with other people who are in really similar situations to you so you don't feel alone.

So that you feel like when you have questions, you're not the only one who has the questions.

You can turn to your support community and really gain from that.

And then when you mentioned meeting people where they're at, that's absolutely a tenet of.

Is foundational to our approach.

Where a long time ago, I used to write these diet plans for people.

They were prescriptive and someone, they'd say, I need to lose such and such amount of weight or I have to improve my cholesterol or blood pressure or whatever.

Can you write out what I need to do?

And I used to do it, and it's just not worth it.

People would experience fast changes, no question about it, but they just invariably, they would not last.

No matter how good the diet plan is.

It's because we need to have autonomy, we need to have agency.

And so what we do here is we take a more adaptive approach.

So, you know, you can think about when someone, I don't know on New Year's, let's say, that's around the corner, ish, People will go all in.

They'll go real hard.

And then at some point they're like, ah, enough is enough.

And they go back to.

They throw in the towel.

It's like a different version of themselves.

They're like, I'm in, like, go mode.

And then I'm in my, like, this is the real me.

That's like their baseline.

And we actually want to change the baseline.

We actually want to change.

Like when you're done trying so hard and you just sort of revert back to, like the version of you that, you know, we want to mess with that and we want to change their baseline so that they're their usual experience where they don't feel like they're walking through mud to get to their goal.

We want that experience to be one that they enjoy and is actually helping them be healthier and happier.

And so that's what we're aiming at.

We're aiming at this adaptive approach.

We're using an adaptive approach where we look at progress, not perfection.

And we help people incrementally make these changes that really add up to really significant, meaningful improvements that can help people come off of meds they don't want to be on, avoid surgeries they don't need be more productive at work, happier and healthier with their family.

Just better quality time all around.

So that's really how we're using this approach to meet people with, you know.

Yeah.

Where they are and give me, give.

Me, give me an idea of the, like, what's the, how many years and what's the sample size of people that you've been working with to kind of get all these learnings that you're now able to apply in the, the Metabyte practice?

I mean, I've been in this field for, for decades.

I mean, ever since I graduated from college, I've been working in this domain.

I've been working with Michael with Metabyte and Mia Lager, which was the predecessor from, since before I even met my wife.

It's been, what is it, like a decade and a half now.

So it's been a long time.

We've been working with a lot of different groups.

We've been, you know, in, in Silicon Valley.

We've been in college settings.

We've worked with athletes, we've worked with health professionals.

We've worked with, you know, management and all sorts of different.

So, I mean, tons.

Michael, maybe you can speak more to the, the actual sheer numbers and the volume of, of who we work with before.

Before I.

Because I'm going to go to Michael right now.

But first, how did you meet Michael?

Oh, so this was at Columbia University.

Michael was an athlete there, and when he graduated and was trying to make.

Help the athletes eat better to support their performance.

And that was at the time I was working in strength and conditioning and also in sports nutrition there.

And so Michael came back with this tool and he was saying, hey, I think we can really help these athletes.

We'll have them photograph their meals and we'll offer some nutrition counseling and we can see how we can, you know, improve their performance and, and help them with their health later on in life, too.

And I, I, an incredible connector named Tommy Sheen, he was the hit.

I think he still is the head strength coach there.

He connected us and we, we became buddies real fast and, and.

All right, well, hey, Michael, let's, let's shut up.

Dave.

David, for just a little bit here, and that's hard.

Turn the microphone over to you.

So how did a former player for the Oakland Raiders and a political scientist from Columbia University get inspired to start Metabyte, a health tech and research firm?

I mean, what was the driving force behind that?

Yeah, definitely.

So I was a late bloomer, a little chubby as a kid, kind of Like David and I started sports when I was 15, and.

And I realized that, you know what, I'm a bit behind.

I need to catch up.

And so I wanted to really know everything that I could about how to improve my performance.

When I started football, I was 15 at that point, and so I was just really putting a lot of time and effort into training and my nutrition.

I actually had a shoulder injury and I had a dietitian work with me on the recovery side and reduce my inflammation to speed up the recovery.

And I noticed how effective that was.

And so by the time I got to Columbia, we actually, we implemented this pilot program using some of the things that I was using at the time with Tommy Sheehan, who David mentioned.

And so that was really the start.

It was really about, you know, a very selfish reason, how do I improve my recovery and my performance.

And then as a polystyrene major, I so passionate about impact.

It was very quick to see that beyond athletics, which is a great way to open doors and get people's attention, there was a much wider need for scalable nutrition coaching tools.

On the healthcare side, especially when we started, there wasn't a way to get coaching.

So, you know, if you're an athlete, you know, if someone started working with you on your technique, for example, on stroke, they wouldn't just give you a rundown of what it is and then wish you good luck and, you know, show you where the pool is.

They'd work with you step by step, which is the idea of using images.

And so we kind of build this coaching program, and David was actually the first dietitian in the US to start using it, and he knocked it out the park.

We started seeing awesome results, and that's.

That's how it got started.

Hmm.

So, David, you can smell a good thing when you see it.

That's good.

Uh, when.

When did you, like, officially launch Metabyte?

So Metabyte is now two years old.

We had the old platform that David talked about, Milagr, and that's been used on the healthcare side.

That's right.

But we also realized when we started, started this that, hey, there's so many things in what dietitians do that can and need to be automated.

And so I actually had a really close friend of mine from football who was working on image recognition for a company that analyzes cancer biopsy samples.

And he's been an advisor for years.

And so he helped us make sure that we built a database that allowed us to really collect this information in a way that can be used for AI, which is now finally at the point where we can really do this in a scalable, effective way.

And so it was really based on the work we did previously in healthcare that we're now applying to this new platform which offers tremendous scalability.

So was there a turning point when you went from meal logger and working with kind of individuals where your focus went to corporate wellness as a solution to improve health outcomes and reduce costs for companies?

Yeah, it was during the pandemic.

We realized, we knew already that the data would allow for these tools to develop.

It just wasn't right there.

And then during the pandemic when you saw how healthcare got into a crisis, that was just really a good turning point.

You know, we knew that that's what we wanted to do and we started doing pilots.

And then when we got connected through a, through a mutual investor that we knew that was just the perfect time to start applying it on the corporate wellness side because healthcare is still in the place.

And you know, you both know this quite well where unfortunately the incentives are not always aligned to offer some of these nutritional services and you know, which we know are impactful, but the incentives just aren't there.

So we knew that we needed to start working with payers, specifically companies, because like the benefits that David talked about, that's where the savings are and it's not just the cost savings on the healthcare side.

There are the benefits in terms of productivity and the impact that has on your family and your community, not to even mention what happens with the environment.

So there's so many benefits and you got to figure out who's really going to benefit the most.

And it tends to be companies.

So that's why we were actually kind of looking for the right partner.

Right, right.

Well.

And so speaking of kind of our collaboration and our partnership, I'd love for you to just let the listeners know.

How did the idea for collaborating with Plantstrong come about from your vantage point?

I guess one thing to point out is that the, the focus we have on promoting whole food plant based diets goes back to David.

So we met back when, you know, he was working with athletes and, and he did a wonderful job working with those athletes.

And we started noticing that a lot of the healthcare customers we were working with were promoting whole food plant based diets.

Not the same way David was, but there were clear similarities.

And David has actually published with the ACLM on this.

But as we started noticing that trend, you know, and I noticed I paid a lot of attention when what David was doing because he's so good in what he does.

He kind of convinced our whole team.

He convinced our, not just the team that works in this bar investors.

We knew that this is the direction we wanted to take the company to really drive the kind of impact that we wanted to bring about.

And so as that mission started forming, we got introduced through that mutual connection.

David was the one who really helped shape that on our end because there are a lot of things that we need to understand.

How do we focus this and how do we align everything internally.

And so David has done a massive amount of work.

And so when we met Rip and then Lori Quarter, which was just wonderful, your whole team, I mean that trip to Black Mountain, the emotional intelligence we kept talking with David about that in your group is off the charts.

Like the environment, the feeling and just the learnings were incredible.

But so yeah, it was really just understanding how do we take that magic and put it in such a shape and form that it's easy for people to consume and really get access to it?

Because a lot of times we already have the information that's necessary.

But then how do we help people structure their environments and form the connections like David was talking about this data on that.

I can get to that later.

But that's really kind of from our end.

It was David helping us understand how to take some of your magic and then put that into, you know, our, our solution, our service and joint service.

Hey David, so how hard did you have to sell Michael and the board or whoever you had to on whole food plant based?

You know, it's funny, I think Miel Lager.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Michael.

We used to call M Lager agnostic.

Right?

Is that the word you used to use?

Yeah, Diet agnostic.

The health professional gets to decide what they want to do.

Yeah, but I mean it's so clear to me that the jury is in that this is the way to do it, that this is the health.

It's not like just having a different opinion.

Like, you know, some people think a carnivore diet is great and some, some people think a plant based diet's great.

And there's room for everyone to have their own opinions and at the end of the day we can all.

I mean it's like I think I just really needed to present the evidence, which I did, to Michael.

Michael mentioned the publication I had with the American College of Lifestyle Medicine where we combed through clinical practice guidelines from so many organizations.

I mean everything that was available and really the consensus Was clear that big surprise.

Eating more fruits and vegetables and whole grains and beans.

These are the sorts of foods that are really are recommended to support our health and our well being.

And so really Michael was wonderfully receptive.

And when he took that, when he, I think became extremely clear of the consensus and how clear those data are, he.

He jumped right in.

So it actually was a hard sell.

Nice.

So this, this question is for David and Michael mentioned, you know, you guys walked away from that Black Mountain retreat and you were remarking on how there, you know, there was a certain magic in the air.

Right.

And the environment that we were able to create there, the emotional IQ that the whole team had.

And so I think, you know, David, one of your jobs has been how, how do you, how do you try and integrate that plant Strong philosophy that you guys got a really nice taste of into the program so that you can ensure that people aren't just learning, but they're also, they're able to transform their health, you know, through these real practical changes.

Yeah.

So that, that whole experience at Black Mountain was extraordinary for me and I'll do my best to recreate some of the plant strong philosophy.

Tell me if I bunch.

But I mean, for me, one of the things, it was so clear that people were taking on really meaningful challenges.

You know, there's so many different things we can choose to take on that are all important.

But we're really aiming at health through food primarily, which makes a lot of sense.

It's at the crux of our health is the food that we eat.

And we're looking to help people build this, you know, one handful of produce at a time, like fruits, vegetables, whatever.

We're trying to help people incrementally do this.

We're happy for people who are, you know, who want to dive into the deep end.

That's great.

And a lot of people want to make a slower shift, but that it seems like Plantstrong aims at these really high yield propositions and we're trying to take on those same ones.

Something that stuck out to me beautifully was really the camaraderie the plant at the retreat, at Plan Strong.

It's, it's very clear.

You're, you're not trying to get people to go at this alone, that they're, you know, you want, they need to do this with friends, they need to do with family.

They need to get some support, you know, recruit people in their lives to, to have their back.

And we absolutely are looking to embody and embrace that too.

I mean it goes Such a long way.

And sometimes the people in your immediate surroundings are just not going to be those people.

And that's okay.

You can connect to those people virtually.

Yeah, there are a lot of people, you know, even within your own business, you might not even realize or struggling with the same things.

And so we.

We want to connect people to other folks who are looking to make those same sorts of meaningful changes.

Another thing is that that whole, like, aura at the retreat, it's like a celebration, you know, it's like.

It feels like there is abundance.

No one's counting calories or carbs or anything like that.

There is a feeling of, like, I don't know, of joy.

There's no drudgery.

And like, oh, I'm not going to enjoy today.

I'm not going to enjoy these meals.

Okay, fine.

It's for the weight or whatever I need to lose, and it's just not that feeling.

And we're exactly taking that same approach.

We want people to not be hungry, to eat plenty of food, eat the food that they love, not to feel like they have to just grind it out.

You know, that's right at the.

At the foundation of what, again, of what we're doing.

It's like, if you're gonna make.

If you make a change and you're like, oh, I knew I was supposed to do that.

I was supposed to have lettuce or whatever, but you're like, I hated it, though.

We say no, take a step back.

Go back to the point where you really liked what you were doing, and then let's, like, bake in the stuff that will serve you, but in a way where you don't ever feel like you're counting down the days until it's over.

Like, no, this is supposed to be a party, not a prison.

Did you want to say something, Rip?

You look like.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's good.

That.

That's.

That's.

That's really, really good.

No, no, I think you expressed all that wonderfully well.

And can I add one more thing.

Real quick to that?

Actually?

Yeah.

The very last thing I just wanted.

I mean, I could go on and on, but I'll just say one big thing that is big for plant, strong big for metabolite.

We very much align is that we want participants to call the shots.

You know, we want them to be in the driver's seat.

We don't want, like, going back to the writing up diet plans, which is painful and useless as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think it's productive at all.

We want people to take the helm.

We want them to be, to be really feeling like they are in control of their own lives and that no one's telling them what they need to do.

Then they have nothing to rebel against.

There's nothing to push back against.

They don't feel like mom or dad or whoever is mandating these changes.

And I just wanted to say that's another big thing is the sense of agency.

See eye to eye on.

And so that's the only other thing I just want to mention.

Yeah, yeah, no, perfect.

So with all that being said, I think it is so exciting that you guys are creating a model that can empower employers to spread this message out right throughout their community.

And it just becomes a win, win, win, win.

So what I'd love to do right now is let's talk about the program itself.

And I believe it's a 12 week corporate wellness program that you have.

I'd love to start with you, Michael.

And so let me ask you this.

Let's say that you have a company, for example, like Central Pet, that actually did the 12 week program.

They got such amazing results that they decided to, you know what, we're going to roll this out to our 7,000 employees.

How fantastic is that?

But tell the listener how's it structured and what makes it different from all the other wellness programs that are out there.

Definitely.

So as you said, Rip, it's a 12 week program and it's aligned with the plan.

Strong plan, strong approach.

And one of the key factors is that the user is in the driver's seat of the participant.

They get to choose what they want to drive and how they want to drive it.

And so it's structured around goals.

So there's different goals that you set for yourself.

How many servings of fruits, vegetables you want to add, you know, per week.

And then you set a goal on how you want to do it and then you can do a, you know, an analysis.

How did you achieve it?

You kind of reflect on it and then there are different themes that go on on a weekly basis.

So you know, you learn how to evaluate yourself, you know, building a support system and you know, how do you plan for success?

It covers sleep, mood, food, you know, how do you eat on a plant?

How do you eat a plant based diet on a budget?

Because those all things like it's really helping people understand how is it easy and affordable and enjoyable?

Those are the critical steps that we want to help people do while they are at the same time, getting access to some really powerful tools.

So, for example, you know, there's image recognition on as they log their meals, and logging meals is not important for the purpose of logging those meals.

The reason why logging meals is so important is because they get to connect with other people.

They get to see what they're eating.

So, you know, with the first pilot that we did with Central Garden and PET, there was a ratio between 4 to 1 in terms of sessions and meals.

So people on average were recording four sessions a day, five, five minutes a session.

So about 20 minutes of engagement per day, which is a lot.

I mean, we're talking about a health app here, not Instagram.

And.

And so.

And they were doing that.

And that ratio tells you they were doing it because they were connecting with other people.

They were commenting on each other's meals liking.

And that's really critical that you find your tribe and you get support, because a lot of services will offer, like a community element where people just kind of talk, but this is really that you kind of see everyone on their journey, you're doing it together, and you have a virtual support group.

That's critical.

And we've seen that.

Right.

So would you say that the.

One of the.

One of the things that kind of separates this program from a lot of other wellness programs is the group coaching element?

It absolutely is.

So it starts with that curriculum that we've been working on together with you guys, and then having those achievable goals.

Again, it's so critical to have achievable goals because people will go in and they'll have all these lofty goals, and that's great.

But you want to be able to build on success step by step.

Then again, you can start adding.

So you do that with the peer support, and then some of the other tools, the image recognition, and then you add the language model where you get to ask questions and you get answers to it.

There are different ways that we then add scalability to this, but it's putting all these pieces together that really is at the core of it.

Making sure that we have the right content, the right curriculum for people to follow, get them the support they need, and then give them these new tools that are now available at the right time if they need them.

So it's really putting these pieces together, because you can think of it like Lego bricks, like all these Lego pieces exist, but it's about, you know, putting them together in the right way for each individual.

David, since, you know, kind of the group coaching element is such a Differentiate differentiator for you guys.

And it's so incredibly effective.

And you touched upon this earlier, but like, what's the science behind that?

What does the science tell us about, about this and why isn't everybody doing it?

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's very clear that group nutrition counseling is more effective than individual nutrition counseling.

You know, you're mentioning like how, how would we know this from the, from the, is there scientific evidence to substantiate this?

And I would say absolutely.

For example, just as an example, just in the last few years, there were two systematic literature reviews that were published.

The author's last names were Abbott and Street of the two that are coming to mind right now.

And they found that in people who had a bunch of weight to lose, they lost more weight in group nutrition counseling than they did in individual nutrition counseling.

And the percentage of people who lost a so called clinically meaningful amount of weight was greater again in the group counseling.

There's other research also looking at this in patients with type 2 diabetes.

Again, systematic literature review, you're looking at tons and lots of different studies.

This particular paper, Odger's Jewel, and I think it was 2017, they published again, a systematic review of the literature.

And again, it's just, it's more effective.

So really when you take these really prevalent, high hitting, heavy hitting, chronic diseases that can really sideline people and just diminish their quality of life and the cost of living.

And also when, you know, when that goes to the employer as well, it can be a lot.

And so it's just, it seems to be more effective to do this group nutrition counseling.

It's also more satisfying for, you know, to be able to help so many more people with, you know, to amplify this message just goes such a long way.

It feels wonderful to be able to empower more people.

And you know, it goes back to those same sorts of.

Yeah.

Reasons we were talking about before, about taking on these challenges with people who, you know, to have brothers and sisters in arms as we take on our own health, it matters a lot and you know, to learn from each other and that support, it's, it's really powerful.

Couldn't agree with you more.

I mean, I am, I am always amazed at how the bonds and the intimacy that occurs at all of our retreats between the participants.

And we wouldn't, we wouldn't have the opportunity to have that unless we had a group that came together and made themselves vulnerable and open to the experience.

And so I, anyway, I applaud you guys on what you're doing here.

You know, one of the aspects that you have tried with some of these experimental groups like Central Pet, that has done incredibly well is you have rolled out some of our plant strong food products in the program.

David or Michael, like how.

What kind of a role do you feel like this plays in helping make it healthier or more sustainable for the, for these employees?

I think it's a big role.

And so that's something that we were so excited that Central actually wanted to include in their national rollout because these are milestone rewards.

People, you know, get these by trying different things.

And so by doing different things in the service and progressing, and it's great because you have a way of rewarding people for doing work.

But at the same time, they get to learn something and try something new because these products, you know, they help them on their journey.

And so discovering new foods is so important because you're trying to figure out, how do I implement this in real life?

And so, so having things that, that aren't subtly available for you, that actually help you, you know, what do I eat as a snack?

What do I do if I can't, you know, get a certain type of food?

And, oh, I can, I can combine this with that.

There's just so many things that come out of that, and it's so important to have those examples.

The same reason why, you know, as an athlete, when you're training, you're watching other people, you're trying different things.

Just having those different reference points is so important because a lot of people aren't used to it.

It's.

When you think about what's in our food environment, we have all these other foods that are so readily available and the healthy options are not that easily available.

So, you know, providing access to it, I think it's just a wonderful, wonderful thing.

And it kind of.

It's very timely.

When you think about food as medicine, it clearly is one of those key obstacles for people to learn.

What can I try?

What do I like?

Where do I get it from?

So I think it addresses a really key problem.

Yeah, well, and you just mentioned food is medicine.

And just as a little aside, we partnered with a company called Trumed last year, and so 100% of our food line is now eligible for HSA FSA reimbursement.

That's wonderful.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's, that's, that's really, really cool.

Let's talk about the impact on employee health and any potential corporate savings that can can happen here.

You know, if I, if I am one of the higher ups at let's say the Amco Corporation, and, and I'm interested in looking at this.

My first thing is what's the ROI in something like this?

Like, how can this company not only improve the health of, of my employees, but also what kind of long term savings can I expect, especially in terms of health care costs?

Because if it's, if it's compelling, I'm signing on the dotted line like today.

So what have you guys seen?

Yeah, so we, I mean in terms of like the, for those who reported the, the outcomes, we had average weight loss of 5.8%.

You know, we had a 7% drop in cholesterol.

And again, now we're talking about not people at retreats, because your retreats are magical.

We're talking about people doing this in their daily lives.

And so you take those learnings and what we're currently actually doing.

Dr.

Marbus, who is the chief medical officer, we've put together an estimate of what those savings are and we're talking about up to $7,000 per employee.

And so those savings are significant.

And so again, it depends on the individual.

What is that per year?

Per year.

But when you think about again up to, so that depends on, again we're talking about averages here.

So you know, some people, you know, might have comorbidities.

And it's, it's, it's, it's something that we're actually working on collecting.

And so maybe David wants to talk about his PhD a little later.

But this information in terms of what the average savings are exists.

And so by putting that together and by looking at results, you can start getting some of that, you know, what it could be, that range.

And it's somewhere between, you know, 5 to 7,000 per employee by getting certain results.

And so that's actually something that we're collecting data on and we'll be able to talk about it more later.

But the initial results have been really exciting.

I like that a lot.

And what have you found as far as, let's say I have 100 people that sign up to do the program because we all know that there's recidivism and stuff like this.

If you have 100 people sign up, how many people are there at the end of still standing after 12 weeks?

So we were talking earlier about the kind of programs that we've run, you know, in different places.

So we've had over 11,000 groups total.

And when we look at these different crew and they're different types.

Like some of them are small groups, some of the large groups, but when we look at the group coaching, on average we're talking about 70, 75% of completion.

And there's always things that happen, like life happens in some of the pilots that we've just had.

You know, the.

Unfortunately the hurricanes have had an impact, so there's a lot of things that can impact people, but in that range, it's usually what we, what we see.

David, is there anything you'd like to add to that as far as any health benefits that employers can see?

Yeah, you know, I mentioned before the reduction in health related productivity impairments.

So when you cut that nearly in half, you get a whole lot more, you know, worker time and effort and energy and that goes a really long way.

I think that that also helps shift the culture of the place where you're working, where people are maybe more inclined to take some walking meetings or to, you know, their, their lunch break.

You know, it's just, it's a different look and a different feeling that creates a sense of, you know, it's like a team.

And I think when people are here trying to support each other and you know, like you were mentioning, we've been doing this with Central Garden and Pet and, you know, these are a lot of people who are having their lunches together.

And I think it can unify these employees in a way that goes even beyond just how many sick days do you need to take?

And by the way, I'm all for taking sick days.

I'm all for it, but I don't want to take when I'm actually sick.

So the good news is I think that, that people will end up showing up and being more productive at work.

And when they actually do take time off, it's not just so that they can get back to even to where they began.

It's rather, you know, to really.

Yeah.

Have a greater sense of enjoyment in life.

Well, you know, and just to just to chime in on that, just from my own personal experience, and this was a, you know, me at the firehouse, fire station too.

But, you know, we created this culture for a good six years where any firefighter that came in, they knew that this was the, you know, the plant strong culture.

And there was something about all of us rallying behind this, eating this way, working out together, that we just created this culture of wellness.

And after a couple years, everybody wanted in, everybody wanted part of it.

So it's incredible how attractive something like this wellness can become.

And I think it's really important that people understand, you know, you guys, you have the system in place.

Like we, we know, we know what it is.

It's just a matter of how do we, how do we implement it in a way where people, people don't feel isolated, they don't feel alone, they don't feel like the weirdo.

And you guys have provided all the tools and resources.

It's beautiful.

Michael, I'd like to know from you, so where do you see this plan Strong by Metabyte program going from here?

And what's next for corporate wellness?

We're just getting started, but I mean, really where we see it going is taking this message that you've created and you've been able to share with people and amplifying it really again, we want to make it as easy and enjoyable and affordable as possible for people to start living a plant strong lifestyle.

That's really what we're trying to help, you know, accomplish together here.

And we want to take it to companies that care about their employees and want to make a change.

And it's not just again, about the employees, which is important.

There's also wider impact and terms of, you know, you doing this.

So that's the message we want to get out.

It's basically following in your footsteps.

Yeah, well, this is, this is the brass ring that you guys are shooting for here.

And you know, the latest stats that I've heard is that we now as a country are spending close to $5 trillion annually on healthcare costs.

And it's just not sustainable.

Right.

I mean, that, that is going to bankrupt this country.

You, you know, we, we haven't even talked about, but I have on the podcast, so people know.

But you know how we have a pandemic of obesity, we have a pandemic of type 2 diabetes.

And this is something that we have got to get a grip on in a big way.

And I think if we can start to start knocking down the dominoes and start getting corporations to see this works and my God, my employees are getting healthy.

They are.

We're reducing our healthcare costs.

This is some exciting stuff.

David, any last words from you?

Oh, sure, yeah.

I mean, by the way, I just want to mention that when I said that GEICO intervention and you're talking about food, you know, costs, I just wanted to mention that that inter.

That, that GEICO intervention where plant based diets were used, a bunch of sites, and I just want to say that there were actually lower food costs for eating this way as well.

So people actually save money People tend to think of, oh, the plant based diets are going to be expensive.

And it turns out, you know, you can certainly make them expensive if you buy these really fancy and not super healthy, like cheeses and meat alternative.

You know, there's a lot of ways to blow your money if you want to, but, you know, rice and beans and like, and who doesn't like a burrito or a bowl of chili?

And, you know, these are the sorts of things that are not expensive.

And so people actually tend to save money in this sort of capacity.

And so it's nice to have your own paycheck, go further.

And, you know, you're talking about the future of where is this all heading.

And I mean, I can really see us helping a lot of people, really amplifying this message.

I think it'd be great to see metabolite at companies of all different sizes.

I could see us helping counteract the weight gain that often happens when people are starting at a new job in a new environment and they're.

I think there's so much that we can do helping them become more productive, help shift that culture like you experienced at the firehouse, just, it changes the whole experience.

When you go to work and you're like, oh, there's something we're all on board here for together.

And it makes it so that you're, you're working with your teammates.

It's just a different feel.

And I think it's something I've experienced personally.

You've experienced it personally.

I think we can really have a great effect in this way.

I could picture people instead of having their donuts at their coffee, you know, at their meeting, maybe they have the donuts, maybe they're there, but there's also like a bowl of berries or something like that.

And so, you know, it can start to shift.

Not telling people what they can't have, but rather saying, hey, there's also a party here and you're invited to it.

I'd love to see that happen.

I think that would be a way more fun way to spend 40 hours a week than just, you know, checking the time so you can figure out when you can go take a nap or something like that.

I hear you loud and clear.

Well, David and Michael, it's been a pleasure having you guys on the Plan Strong podcast.

You know, I am so proud of the work that you guys are doing that we are, you know, trying to do together to improve corporate wellness.

And I think that you guys have, have hit pay, pay kale here, not pay dirt.

But pay Kale here.

It's really cool.

So all you listeners out there, I'd love to point you to our website.

You know, you can go to liveplantstrong.com or you can visit the Show Notes in today's episode, but this might be something that you could show to the decision makers in your workplace, in your network, and it may just like be the spark that ignites a wellness revolution in your work site.

We would absolutely love that.

So with that, David, Michael, my Plan Strong brothers, I appreciate you from Finland, from Bend, Oregon.

You guys absolutely rock.

Thanks so much for having us.

We appreciate it.

Can I get a virtual Plan Strong fist bump on the way out?

Boom.

Rip.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, Rip.

Take care.

Bye.

I want to thank you all for joining us for this pioneering conversation about the future of wellness in the workplace.

If you're inspired by what you heard today, and if you want to learn more about the Plan Strong by Metabyte corporate wellness program, check out the Show Notes for all the details.

You can also visit liveplantstrong.com and explore how we're making plant powered wellness accessible to companies everywhere.

Let's keep building a healthier world together, one workplace at a time.

Until next time.

As always, keep it Plan Strong.

The Plan Strong podcast team includes Carrie Barrett, Lori Kordowich, and Amy Mackey.

If you like what you hear, do us a favor and share the show with your friends and loved ones.

You can always leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

And while you're there, make sure to hit that follow button so that you never miss an episode.

As always, this and every episode is dedicated to my parents, Dr.

Caldwell B.

Esselstyn Jr.

And Ann Krile Esselstyn.

Thanks so much for listening.