Hazel Part 2

[00:00:00] Ross: hi there, and a very warm welcome to season six, episode seventeen of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Hazel: I think by then, because I'd, I'd been doing so much coaching and using ACT Within It, I think when I reflected on my coachees, actually a lot of the work that I was doing, you know, you could badge it as resilience or you could badge it as, as burnout prevention, but I had had several clients say to me, I would have left if I hadn't had this coaching.

[00:00:31] there's no way that I would have stayed in this role. so I started to see that there was definitely something in the techniques could support someone when they were on that. On that road to burnout.

[00:00:44] Ross: Pea Soupers, in this episode I continue my conversation with Hazel Anderson Turner. Hazel is a business psychologist and mindset coach specializing in resilience and leadership.

[00:00:54] She's also a podcast co host at Coaching Unpacked and author of the book, Coaching Through Burnout, and that's where we focus our conversation today. Hazel's people soup ingredients are flexibility, values led action, being of service, with a healthy sprinkling of humor. First up, you'll hear my review of Coaching Through Burnout, a burnout prevention toolkit for busy leaders and their teams.

[00:01:17] We then explore the modern workplace´s mental health crisis, particularly burnout, and Hazel shares the definition and its three components. Hazel also shares her personal experience with burnout and how it inspired her to create a course for the NHS, Which was highly successful, but ran out of funding, leading to the origin story of this book. Hazel also talks about her writing process, the challenges and joys of writing her first book, and her values of service, openness, vulnerability, and creativity.

[00:01:48] She hints at our next book on Values-Based Living. And the interview concludes with Hazel emphasizing the importance of hope and fresh starts for those struggling with burnout or any life challenge [00:02:00]

[00:02:10] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, welcome! It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life, from behavioral science and beyond. For those of you who are regular PeeSupers, thanks for tuning in again. We love it that you're part of our community.

[00:02:27] Let's just take a scoot over to the news desk and reviews are in for our previous guest Sam Hart.

[00:02:33] Russell Baker messaged me on LinkedIn all the way from Australia said it was so wonderful to have an example of positive masculinity, which is often missing in today's society. So Russell, thanks so much for listening. Really appreciate your feedback. And PCPers, we'd love to get your feedback on episodes, so please do share.

[00:02:51] You'll find the details at the end of this episode and in the show notes. So let's crack on. For now, get a brew on and have a listen to the second part of my chat with Hazel Anderson Turner.

[00:03:09] Hazel, I'd like to dive into exploring your book more, and that book is called Coaching Through Burnout. And I'd like to start with my review Now this is unusual because you've already seen my review, and it actually forms part of the cover of the book, of which I am very grateful and proud.

[00:03:28] Let me, let me read it out. The modern workplace is facing a mental health crisis which includes rising cases of burnout. This book is an invaluable and practical guide, an essential manual for leaders, managers and team members. Not only does it support the development of effective coaching skills, it applies the evidence based processes from ACT in an accessible and practical way.

[00:03:53] Hazel brings her unique voice, humanity, experience, and deep expertise to this book. The stories [00:04:00] she shares are relatable and powerful, and will help leaders tackle what can be uncomfortable conversations in an effective and impactful way. Bravo. And I had the good fortune to read Hazel's book before it was published, so thank you for that opportunity, and thank you for writing it.

[00:04:17] Hazel: Well, thank you for that review. I didn't even pay

[00:04:20] you.

[00:04:21] Ross: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. So I wonder if we could start to explore a bit, Hazel, and talk, talk to us first about what is burnout.

[00:04:32] Hazel: So, I like Christina Malish and her team's kind of definition of it being about three things. You know, it's this combination of exhaustion, cynicism, detachment, and feeling ineffective. So we've got this combination of, I've been giving and giving and giving and I just don't have anything else to live, live?

[00:04:54] To give. I've been you know, caring and caring and caring. And actually that that care is causing me, you know, some pain. So I'm starting to detach myself a bit. And, you know, I feel like I'm failing, I'm letting people down. I'm just not getting to the stuff that I need to get to. So, yeah, we're, we're looking for these combination of.

[00:05:17] Ross: So those three elements are what forms burnout, we know, and do you, do you have the experience that it's almost becoming overused as a word? Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:31] Hazel: It's become a bit of a buzzword and then a bit like resilience, people start to get turned off from it. And I think it's really hard, isn't it? Because I think in our modern world, we seem to, I don't know, get through language even quicker. So we'll just be looking for whatever the next comfortable word is.

[00:05:49] I think there's a lot of it. So it's difficult to say, isn't it? That, is it being, is it being overused? I think it's that piece around the difference [00:06:00] between our normal stress that we experience, and when it becomes chronic. So it is that, it's a bit like, I think there are lots of things, isn't it, where people are saying, please don't say a little bit of, you know, I'm a little bit burnt out.

[00:06:13] because it very much isn't, we are in the chronic place where this has been going on for weeks and months and, and hopefully not in some cases years so yeah, it isn't something you can just be a little bit.

[00:06:26] Ross: Hmm, and When did you first discover burnout as a concept? Hmm,

[00:06:34] Hazel: seeing as I'd experienced burnout myself. I think it was, oh, so it was about, maybe late 2021? I guess I must have been aware of it as a concept, but not something that organisations were taking seriously until the NHS. you know, contacted me to ask me about it.

[00:06:55] I think also, and I don't know if you find this in our line of work, often when I'm asked to work with an organization around a well being topic, they like to give it a positive spin. So I think that's why we talk about resilience a lot. And I even, you know, some of my early titles for sessions would be things like Resilience for Results, to try and make that connection between well being and, profit, or performance.

[00:07:22] And I don't think I even ran sessions that said well being, I think, because even that was kind of seen as something that was all kind of soft and fluffy. So I felt And I still get it to be fair around burnout where people say, can you not call it burnout because we don't want people going off sick after your session. so I, I credit the NHS trust, that I was working with. with the fact that actually went there and named it. because. I think that was quite brave, really. Because I think a lot of, a lot of organisations don't want to name it and own it because it then means that they [00:08:00] need to do something.

[00:08:00] And like I say, there's a fear that if people are awake to the symptoms that they will suddenly go, oh gosh. I'm burnt out. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go off sick or I'm gonna leave.

[00:08:12] Ross: yeah, or I'm going to hold the, the organization responsible in some way. And it's interesting, we've, we've mentioned the R word quite a bit, resilience. Do you find, because I find some organizations aren't keen on the word resilience. They tell me, look, can we use a different word to resilience?

[00:08:28] Because they're sick of it. Because it's been, it's maybe been promoted before and the interpretation of that promotion of the word resilience has been, oh, instead of doing your own job and Going the extra mile. You can do the jobs of two people and go the extra mile and that's what we're trying to cultivate in you we're trying to get blood out of a stone.

[00:08:52] Hazel: Yeah. I think when people have been giving a lot of, like, discretional effort and then they're told, you know, you're not resilient enough. go and get some resilience coaching from Hazel and, you know, everything will be better because you're the problem. And I think, um, understandably, That really switches people off, and so yeah, there, there are absolutely still places where resilience, is okay to use, but I think, yeah, understandably,

[00:09:22] it presses some buttons for people.

[00:09:24] Mm.

[00:09:25] Ross: I'm also curious 'cause it's kind of a bit of a light bulb moment for me when you said you didn't call courses wellbeing previously and you made me think, gosh, I probably didn't pre pandemic. Because it became quite a difficult sell, or difficult to attract participants, because they saw it as Ross's pink and fluffy tree hugging brigade.

[00:09:48] And I think well being has become much more normalized over the pandemic. I think we might be slipping back a bit. But what's your experience of the well being word? [00:10:00] Um,

[00:10:01] Hazel: using it much at all. again, you know, I'm a psychologist. I want to be taken seriously, and I'm using an evidence based approach. So, whereas now, I think, yeah, I think there's a much more open door. And I think, actually, that probably matches funding. So, in the NHS, you know, funding was made available specifically for well being.

[00:10:25] and, and I think other organisations suddenly went, Oh, we've got this responsibility around well being and therefore we need to be demonstrating that we're That we're doing well being so therefore actually it helped because they could say tick and and I think you're right To be a bit less cynical.

[00:10:44] I think I think there's just much more awareness of it and much more awareness that there is Absolutely a link between well being and performance, we can't deny that, you know, that it absolutely is there, whether, whether we take the necessary next steps or not, it's something that, that pays to put, give some attention to.

[00:11:06] Ross: Absolutely. And when did you start to think, Oh, act is really suited to, help people respond to or conceptualize burnout?

[00:11:18] ACT for Burnout

[00:11:20] Hazel: I think by then, because I'd, I'd been doing so much coaching and using Act Within It, I think when I reflected on my coachees, actually a lot of the work that I was doing, you know, you could badge it as resilience or you could badge it as, as burnout prevention, but I had had several clients say to me, I would have left if I hadn't had this coaching.

[00:11:44] there's no way that I would have stayed in this role. so I started to see that there was definitely something in the techniques could support someone when they were on that. On that road to burnout. and then when I was putting [00:12:00] together the training around burnout, again, you know, what was I thinking?

[00:12:06] Okay. How does a connection with values support us when we're in that place? What's this connection between, you know, when we're talking about cynicism and detachment, we're talking about, you know, where we're not being able to live our values or, you know, there's some kind of, maybe some, some kind of conflict in our mind around it.

[00:12:24] Or, we are struggling to access joy and, you know, the positive emotions. So I think. It was, we were talking earlier about, before we came on weren't we, about puzzles. But it was a, it was a puzzle piece fit

[00:12:39] for me.

[00:12:41] Origin Story

[00:12:41] Ross: And I'm really keen on origin stories, Hazel. So when was the moment you thought, Oh, crikey. I'm going to write a book, or, or maybe it was to be of service in this situation. I need to write this book. What, what was it and, and how did it happen?

[00:12:59] Hazel: So, so I love books. So my dream is just being left on a beach somewhere with just loads of books. So I'm, I'm already kind of addicted to the, to the medium. And so I'd always, always had it in the back of my mind that I'd love to write a book. and I, I had been running this Coaching Through Burnout course, and I had received such amazing feedback, so that the best feedback I'd ever received on a course about the effectiveness and how helpful it had been, to people working in the NHS and just how they enabled them to walk away from the course on that day and make some changes that made life better for them.

[00:13:41] And so I felt So connected to this course and felt so passionate. It'd been an idea that had come up in my head to say, you know, that the trust hadn't asked me to, to put on this course. I'd said to them, I know you want me to do some webinars around burnout. Do you know what I really want to do? I'd love to do a skills course [00:14:00] that combines coaching skills.

[00:14:02] training and some stuff around burnout, prevention and, and puts them together. And they'd trusted me enough, to run a pilot of two sessions and we were absolutely overwhelmed. I think we must have had nearly 200 people, apply for 30 places. and then the, uh, wellbeing lead, Dan, he. He scrabbled down the back of the sofas and found, found money to, to put on more courses.

[00:14:30] This is what I'm supposed to be doing

[00:14:30] Hazel: So I ended up training over 150, staff and I was just, you know, when you have an offering that just feels like it's It's, it's you, it's you shaped and, and every time I delivered it, I just, yeah, I just felt like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And after 18 months, the money ran out, you know, the wellbeing pot that had been filled up during COVID had run out and there was no more money.

[00:15:01] And so I, you know, I went to some other contacts, went to other NHS trusts and said, Oh, you know, I've got this amazing intervention and people say it's really helpful and I'd love to do it with you. But nobody, obviously, nobody had any money. and I felt really sad. And it felt like. a real ending.

[00:15:19] And I think old Hazel, the Hazel who loves business, would have just let it go and would have just gone on to the next thing, because I quite like new things. I quite, because the creative side of me would have been, okay, what's the next thing? So burnouts, that's done. There's no more money in the NHS.

[00:15:37] Let's find a sector where there's some money and go and try something new over there. but I just, yeah. I let myself sit in the sadness of that ending, which was just quite unusual for me. It felt, you know, you're kind of like, oh, there you are, wallowing in that sadness.

[00:15:57] You;ve got a choice

[00:15:57] Hazel: And And I thought, okay, so you've got a choice.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] You've got a choice about what you do. You can either put that to bed and it, you know, that, that was it. You help those people and that's done. or you can do something about it. And so, I decided that I would take that course and also take the, pieces from my coaching, my act informed coaching, that Just had been so powerful and I, I used in different types of, of training that I offer and put them into one place and to keep that learning going in some way.

[00:16:34] So maybe I can't be in a space teaching. Those skills, but I can pass it on, through the book. And as you'll know, because you, you've read it, I tried really hard to make it sound like you were being trained by me. So you were, my voice was in there, that it wasn't, an academic book. It wasn't a book which was very theoretical.

[00:17:00] It had that feel that we spoke about. before about this is a human to human exchange of something that could be useful.

[00:17:09] It's like a conversation with Hazel

[00:17:09] Ross: And yeah, P Supers, absolutely. As I've said, the book is practical and authentic. And it's like a conversation with Hazel. And the stories you share from your own life and from others are just so powerful and relatable. Was this always going to be the style you were going to write in?

[00:17:33] Hazel: I think I mentioned in the book that I, I wrote one section in kind of much more of a sensible adult style and then ripped it all up and then started again to make it more experiential. you know, it was my first book. So I, I really enjoyed the process of learning how to write, because I guess that's the other thing.

[00:17:53] You know, I didn't go into it having trained as a writer so I, I like to write an ebook, anyone that's been on my website [00:18:00] knows I love an ebook. My, my web person keeps telling me I have to stop writing ebooks to give them away all of my content. so I like writing. on social media and that and that kind of way.

[00:18:10] But, you know, a book is obviously a lot bigger than that. And, and I noticed how my writing would, it developed through the process. So I was writing the book for six to nine months and I, I loved that the bit of, I thought I could notice myself getting better. and that again, really interested me, because.

[00:18:31] it was a new, a new skill.

[00:18:33] Ross: Yeah. And When you, uh Sitting down to write the book, how did you come up with the structure? Was it, you just started to write first and then the structure came? Or did you have a structure and then you started plugging bits in?

[00:18:46] Hazel: I think I had in mind that I wanted the three sections. So, the bit about my story and a background to burnout, and then the practical skills coaching skills bit, and then the Act bit at the end. I think it, it was, it was just tweaking coming back to it. So I had a spreadsheet with the chapter titles and then, I love a spreadsheet and then like how much progress and how much words I'd written in each of the chapters and I think the way it worked for me, so I'm not a naturally kind of sequential, uh, one thing after another person, which infuriates my partner.

[00:19:28] Uh, I'm very, I'm quite scattergun. I like chaos. As if you could see the rest of my office, you would understand. But so for me, I think writing in one area. So say I, I thought, Oh, today I'm gonna focus on the values chapter. So I would write a bit on that. And then it might make me think, Oh, actually. there is something in that earlier chapter that da da da da, and so I would do a bit of jumping around.

[00:19:55] So it, it definitely got tweaked. I didn't have a [00:20:00] clear plan, and I quite like that. I know that won't work for everyone, but I quite like the fact that I,

[00:20:07] Writing isn't fun

[00:20:07] Hazel: I remember someone saying to me very early on, Like, writing isn't fun. Like, even professional writers hate writing. And I really pushed against this.

[00:20:19] I was like, nope, I feel like it's gonna be fun and I want it to be fun. And I had to find ways to make it feel easy and playful. I had to experiment with that because The, productive part of me tried to sit down and write for eight hours and, you know, set myself a really high word target that I could then smash, uh, and feel really good about myself.

[00:20:47] but I had to. I had to release myself from that and I found that, I mean, I really, if I wanted to write something that was any good, it really was only a couple of hours a day, the creative process is, is just different to other processes.

[00:21:05] Ross: And, what were your values in writing the book?

[00:21:10] Hazel: What were my values? I mean, obviously the service piece.

[00:21:14] Ross: Hmm.

[00:21:15] Hazel: Around, um, Again, I think that generosity of giving away the stuff that I think works. and again, I think, you know, we've spoken about it a lot, but that openness and that willingness the courage to be vulnerable I think through my stories And also, I think by not taking that expert stance in a way, by, by being really clear that I don't have it all figured out, again, that felt really important.

[00:21:50] And then that playful, fun side as well. because I really believe, you know, if you're, if you're, if you're struggling with chronic stress, the last thing you [00:22:00] need is a massive, heavy, Adult book that actually something that you know, I famously said can fit in your pocket you know a small book that's that's really practical that maybe makes you smile that makes you feel like you're not alone and You know, there are people out there who are, who are doing the work and who have been through lots of education and, and they're struggling.

[00:22:28] Um, that maybe it's okay.

[00:22:30] Letting your values be your g uide

[00:22:30] Ross: I think it's a real testament, the whole book, to letting your values be your guide, because they really shine through. And were there moments when you were thinking, goodness me, what have I done?

[00:22:43] Hazel: Yeah. So my first one was. Oh my god, like what, what if nobody reads the book? I mean, so I've spent all this time on this book and what if no one buys it? How embarrassing will that be? And then I realised that no one will know because I've self published. Like no, no one will know if no one buys it. So we can just pretend that it never happened.

[00:23:04] It'll all be fine. And then, and this has only been recently, it hit me. Oh my gosh, what if people actually do buy it, and read it? Not only, have I opened myself up to judgement about, you know, my skills and the things that I teach, but I've shared stories about myself, and as a coach, you know, I spend a lot of time, even though, you know, with an act, we are doing normalising, but we're not, we're not laying it bare, are we?

[00:23:31] Talking about, you know, the things that have happened in our lives. And I was really careful. Not to share any stories that I wasn't at peace with so my story in the book is not the whole story It's it's a story that I hope will help the readers, you know, it's one truth of you know, what happened But there are other things I could have put in but there was still that piece of oh, you know People are gonna know stuff about me and [00:24:00] also people who I don't Already have a connection with

[00:24:03] the first time they might experience me Could be through the book, and that was suddenly like, ooh, a little bit scary.

[00:24:10] Ross: And, looking back on that process, is there anything you can identify that you've learned through writing the book?

[00:24:19] Hazel: I'm sure there's lots of things. I think, I mean, I learned that I like to write

[00:24:24] books. And I've started writing another book. Um, because, because there's this other thing, isn't there? It's a bit like You know, when, when you're in our world and you have your own business, it's like you need the podcast and then you need to write the book.

[00:24:42] and it's, uh, it's really fascinating. So I talked to some marketing and PR people as part of the process of the book coming out and they were saying, okay, so, so what's the offer that you want to sell because you wrote the book? Cause it's, you know, cause it's a marketing thing.

[00:24:56] You know, the book. It's a, it's a way to get into people so that they can then buy, you know, the thing that's actually gonna make you money.

[00:25:04] Ross: Yeah.

[00:25:05] Hazel: And I, I was like, uh, no, no, no, no, no. I, I, I would really love to sell my book for the sake of because I really believe in the stuff that's in it. It's not to me a marketing tool as a way to get in to, to more spaces. I really believe in the content and I really believe in, in what I've written.

[00:25:27] So. Again, it's, it's that I love the medium of books, and, and I feel like they are a way to support people and in places where they might not have access to work with us, either one to one or, you know, in a group setting. I think they are, they are a really valuable resource.

[00:25:53] Aren't they?

[00:25:53] Aren't they? books.

[00:25:56] Ross: it makes so much sense that, I, I love your take on it, [00:26:00] it's not a marketing strategy, it's, I see your clarity on being of service.

[00:26:06] Hazel: and it really threw me, because I know that for some people that is, That is a way that, that you can, you know, really, call out to your target person to say that this is the stuff about, about, you know, this topic. And this is to show that I know what I'm talking about.

[00:26:23] but this really is about. an approach that I feel is really helpful, that I would like to get out more. And I, and I guess that's what's got me a bit like I got hooked with ACT.

[00:26:35] Storytelling

[00:26:35] Hazel: Hooked on this idea that, the presentation of different, ideas. It's in the form of storytelling, in the form of, you know, bringing some of those really geeky theories into the real world and, picking up those interesting stories and, and sharing them like, you know, the one, the serendipity of sitting in the train station where my train has been canceled and I'm, I'm sat there writing a section of the book.

[00:27:05] and overhearing the woman describing how, her unconscious, mind had led her into, one of her neighbors, the back of their car rather than a taxi, that morning. And, and, and I dunno, I think it's opened up a new, a new area of my life. So I always thought that creativity for me was my painting.

[00:27:29] And I. Honestly, I struggle to make time for painting. It is so easy for my mind to say, you know, there are so many more important things that you could be doing than painting. yet, it will allow me to write, because it has some purpose. It connects with Other values as well. It's not, it's, you know, there's creativity, there's service, there's love, um, there's learning, it's hitting [00:28:00] all of my values.

[00:28:01] So that kind of opened the door to go. Yes, it makes it easy for my mind to accept.

[00:28:07] Ross: thank you. And I know you had the launch for your book, a few weeks ago. And. How are people responding to the book?

[00:28:14] Hazel: it's been so lovely. It was actually, the launch was really emotional. there were a lot of NHS emergency service, clients there. And it was just a lovely moment to go, Oh, you know, yay, yay us. and, I felt. That, you know, when people properly see you, like, like we were saying earlier about creating spaces, so much of our work is about creating containers for other people to think well and to, uh, find ways to help themselves.

[00:28:48] And actually, I felt like people really saw me,

[00:28:51] which was really, really lovely. And then, you know, people are reading the book and I'm getting these messages saying, Hazel, it does sound like you. It's like, I've got, I've got 10 minutes with you every day. and I had a friend who I haven't seen.

[00:29:06] Uh, we met on our, occupational psychology masters and she messaged me. and said, oh, Hazel, you really just helped me through the hairdressers. I absolutely hate the hairdressers. but reading your book made it bearable. So, what more can you ask, really?

[00:29:22] Ross: yeah, your work here is done. And I love the way that people can apply the learning to an everyday event, but then, then they've got a chance of installing that in, in other aspects of their lives as well. From the, from the triumph of the hairdressers can, there can be an opportunity to then repeat those perspectives or skills in other areas of life.

[00:29:43] Hazel: Mmm.

[00:29:44] Ross: I have to ask, you said, and I'd like to pretend to my listeners, P. Supers, you heard it here first, Hazel's writing another book. Are you allowed to tell us anything about it yet, or is it still at the, under wraps phase? I [00:30:00] completely respect if it is. Hmm,

[00:30:02] Hazel: it's about values based living, and I think what I've, what I've discovered, the more that I work with values and the more that I, I teach about values, the more that I recognize that it's something and it's something that That it would be helpful to open up, you know, that, that conversation around what does it actually look like and the discomfort piece.

[00:30:29] So, I mean, this whole, you know, two sides of a coin. So on one side having all of, you know, the great things that values bring and then on the other side, that the pain and discomfort that comes from holding those values, like, wow. what does that mean? So what does it mean to. to live with the discomfort of adventure.

[00:30:49] Like what, what could that look like? And how might you navigate it and where I've worked with different coaches and they've navigated living their values in lots of different ways. Again, it's made me feel, I think this is. Something about humanness that other people would really be interested in. And not just kind of like in a moral sense of living your values, but in kind of any of it. When we there, when we get that sense like I did, of, you know, this, the place where I'm at doesn't feel like it fits with who I am. So then what could it look like and what could I learn from other people who have, you know, stepped into their values and have stepped into some of the discomfort? so I just feel like there's a, there's a whole richness that could be brought to that topic.

[00:31:43] So that's where I'm going next. Yeah.

[00:31:46] Ross: well we look forward to hearing how that evolves. Before we go, I wonder if you have any brief takeaway for the listeners that they might find useful relating to them in the workplace.

[00:31:58] Hazel: Hmm. [00:32:00] So I was asked about One Takeaway at the, at the launch, and I shared something that I think really resonated with people, so for, for those people who have seen the book cover, and if you haven't, then you need to because it's beautiful, um, so it's a sunrise, and my daughter actually did the first edition, design of this, uh, before it got sent to the, the book designer.

[00:32:26] And, um, the reason why I chose a sunrise was because during COVID, I used to get up every morning and go and see the sunrise, uh, when it was there. And it, I think, connected me to a sense of hope, a sense of a new day, a sense of a fresh start. And I think that often when we are In a place where we're struggling, we might feel stuck, we feel like we can't see our choices, or we can see the challenges in front of us, then sometimes just finding something that can give you some hope, that things can be different, can be the most powerful thing.

[00:33:16] Ross: Hmm.

[00:33:17] Hazel: And, and I think that's why I chose this cover, because Yes, obviously within it, there's loads of things, you know, about, you know, the power of questions and, you know, all the wonderful techniques from ACT, but most of all, I wanted this to be, something that gave people hope. Things can change and things can be different and you can be the person to make that change.

[00:33:40] Ross: Wow. Thank you, Hazel. Thanks for your, your generosity today, your openness and for being such an inspiration. So I'm delighted you've joined us. Thank you for everything and look forward to having you on again. in the future for the next book.

[00:33:55] Hazel: Oh, I can't wait. [00:34:00]

[00:34:01] Ross: That's it folks, part two of my chat with Hazel in the bag.

[00:34:05] Please do check out Hazel's brilliant book, Coaching Through Burnout.

[00:34:09] You'll find the show notes for this episode at peoplesoup. captivate. fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, I'd love it if you told me why. You can email at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. Now on the socials, Peasoopers, there are some changes to my profiles. I've stopped posting on Twitter because I no longer value the place it has become. I've also retired my Facebook page as my confidence in the platform has diminished greatly.

[00:34:34] I'm still posting on Instagram at people. soup and I'm on LinkedIn too as well as a new account on BlueSky. Just search for my name. Now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people soup ingredients.

[00:34:45] Stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, Pea Soupers, and bye for now.

[00:35:03] yeah, I really, really loved that. Thank you.

[00:35:05] Hazel: Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I decided to come in and be full Hazel, so.

[00:35:10] Ross: Thank you. I would want nothing less.