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Hello, friends, and welcome to Coach Cut's

Corner,

Streaming bright from Michigan's capital city. This podcast is dedicated to helping you better understand the who, the what and the why of mental performance, personal growth and Lansing Stars baseball down on the fixing line. Coach Cuts Corner, brought to you by

iwash in collaboration with Lansing Community College.

And now, here's your host, Stephen Cutter.

Welcome to the show. Thank you for tuning in and subscribing. Each week I provide insights into our program and inspire you to challenge yourself to become a better you, ultimately helping you enhance your life just as I have mine. I offer mental skills coaching to athletes across all levels, from youth to the professional. And you can find out more@coachcutter.com we have Ethan Papacek in the WLZ studios today. Ethan is a sophomore pitcher for the Stars and his journey in the game is unique and filled with growth and challenges. Ethan spent his prep career at Stony Creek High School in Michigan before committing to Sacred Heart University, a Division 1 school in Connecticut. He left there after one season and came to the capital city where he spent his the 2024 season on the famed disabled list. He's almost all the way back for his sophomore season and I wanted to get him in the studios today to talk about his journey. There's a quote that says, our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. This quote emphasizes the importance of resilience and perseverance in the face of adversity. I feel as if Ethan has shown some amazing resilience and perseverance in his journey and. And I'm excited to have him in the studio today. Welcome to the show, Ethan.

Thank you, coach. I appreciate that.

What are your first impressions of being in WL and Z studios?

Yeah, I think the studio looks great. I didn't know we had a radio studio. I know I saw a TV room or something down here, too. So it looks like they've got their media set up pretty well.

So, Stoney Creek High School.

Yep.

Yeah, I did some research and Eric Fisher was pretty famous there. Believe he was a lineman for the Chiefs for a long time. Did you know who that was?

Oh, yeah. Everyone that's been through Stoney knows who Eric Fisher was for sure. And I know that him and I shared some teachers I'd always hear some funny stories about.

Just like, he was a big man, right? Or is a big man.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure actually in high school he wasn't even. I think he was maybe a linebacker or something like that. But yeah, his coaches all right, so

let's tell our listeners about yourself a little bit. High school. Did you play any other sports?

No, I didn't really play any other sports. I played basketball up until about seventh grade and got cut from the middle school team, so.

Okay. Was that challenging when you got caught?

Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, I really liked all sports. I'd say played football up from fifth grade until eighth grade, a little bit in ninth grade, then broke my collarbone, stopped playing football.

So when did you know that you wanted to play baseball in college?

It was pretty late for me actually. The first time I ever remember talking to a college was Kelvin University. And that started in the summer going into my senior year as a pitcher. On playing for Michigan's premier, the coach at Kelvin text me and he said he was going to come out and watch me play that. Played a game that day. I think I hit a couple triples and sat 78, 82 on the bump.

Okay. Yeah, you had quite the lefty swings.

Thank you.

Yeah. So when did you realize that you were pretty decent at baseball? When, when did that happen? Was that at a young age or did that come later?

I would say I was always decent when I was younger. You know, I never really stood out too incredibly. I was a decent athlete. I wasn't a fast runner, couldn't really do anything too explosive. But I think when I realized I finally wanted to play college baseball was after starting a throwing program with soa. A lot of my numbers climbed and I really just like ignited love for the game.

Okay. So that's usually what success does. It breeds kind of stacks on top of other things and just makes that drive and that ambition just a little bit stronger. When it came to baseball, you were a two way player, meaning you played a position but you also pitched. At what point did you realize that it might not be able to be. I'm going to have to refine things.

Yeah, I guess when I decided I had to refine things was about in my junior year of high school. I got cut from our varsity team. So I didn't really understand my place or how I could actually help my team win.

Why do you think you got cut?

I know why I got cut, actually. It was really just a skill thing. My coach just didn't think I was good enough or great enough. And he had 16 or 17 seniors on varsity that year.

So a big roster already.

Yeah.

How did you handle that? Maybe at first. And then how did you handle it after?

Not the best, honestly. I remember him telling me and to his face. I had a reaction that was pretty much just like, I believe you. I trust you. I'll get my work in. He told me that I would be one of the first guys brought up. Never got brought up that year. So that kind of definitely was a little punch in the gut for me, especially after getting cut.

How'd you start handling that down the road?

Down the road? You know, throughout the season, I would say.

And this was your junior year?

Junior year, yeah. As I'd say, throughout the season, it gave me a little chip on my shoulder. It gave me, like, something I thought I could play for.

So being cut for you meant, like, you needed to play in the junior varsity.

Yeah.

And you never really got brought up during the season to even help out. So did you start working on your skills, or did you kind of play the victim card? You know, what. What did that all look like?

I guess I'd have to say it was victim card. I didn't really start working on skills until after that season.

Okay.

That is, I guess, the year that I picked up plyo balls for the first time and kind of figured out how to start progressing skills, But I didn't really understand how to put it into practice.

Okay, so what was your senior year like?

Senior year was a little different story. So I had gained probably 40 pounds at that point, maybe more. And obviously, all my numbers climbed up. A lot of my coaches were impressed, thinking I was a different player than the year prior. So I knew I'd have a spot on the team for sure.

Okay.

I started to change my goal. Rather than just to be a varsity player, I wanted to be a college player.

Interesting. And then if we take another step forward, you end up committing to a Division 1 college to play baseball. What was that like? I mean, you were literally. You were cut from the baseball team as a junior in high school. You were told that you were not solid enough of a player to be able to impact the team. What was that feeling like?

I thought it was a pretty incredible feeling. I mean, there was a lot of times throughout my road where I understood that I wanted to play college baseball, But I didn't really know what it meant. I didn't know where I would end up or anything like that. I would tell people all the time that I wanted to play D1 baseball, and I would always oftentimes just get laughed at in my face because people didn't think it was possible. I just kept doing what I could to control that and ended up pulling a few offers out of high school. And sacred art was a place that really seemed like they actually wanted me to be there. So.

Okay. And then you were faced with some adversity when you got there, correct?

Yep.

Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. So I guess the first thing that I could say about that is I committed to a coaching staff who about two or three weeks later ended up not being there. So that was the first thing we came in there not knowing.

Big hurdle.

Yeah, definitely. So none of the guys really on that whole team knew our coaches at all. It was all fresh, everything was new. So there was really. No, there wasn't any. How can I phrase this? Any games to be played. I guess it was just, you go in there, you do your thing and you find your role. I went in there. I think it was maybe the second or third week of practice. Guy who ended up getting 11th round draft pick by the Dodgers, smokes a line drive right in my jaw, had a concussion maybe a few days after that. Or not a few days, maybe a few weeks after that.

Were you pitching to him or.

No, I was actually on bucket in center field.

And did you not have a screen on the bucket?

Yeah, so we had a screen on the bucket. One of my buddies, Matt Longo, he threw a ball in from the outfield to me, took about maybe a half step outside of the net. Incredible poor luck.

So, yeah, that's some adversity. That puts you out for a little bit.

Yeah, just a little bit. And then, yeah, maybe a few weeks to a month after that, I had to shut down all my throwing. It was after one of our inner squad scrimmages. I really just couldn't get any feel for the baseball at that point. My velo had been down for a few weeks. My arm killed every time I threw, even with 6 to 8 ibuprofen. So there really wasn't anything to do for me at that point.

So what happened from there?

From there, I went and met with Dr. Ahmad. He's the doctor for the New York Yankees. He told me he requested. Yeah, he requested me to get a ulnar nerve transposition surgery. Ended up getting that and was back for the season around March.

Okay, so you made it back for the spring season. Yeah. What was it like being so far from home?

Yeah, it was definitely interesting, especially looking back, not realizing how immature I was my freshman year. It was just really a room with so much growth. And I can't really imagine how it would have. How much it would have been different had I stayed closer to home that year. But I definitely don't regret my decision to go out of state.

And what brought you to Lansing?

To Lansing. So I played summer ball over that year and my coach, Coach Alamet, he actually, he told me about Lansing. I really wasn't familiar with juco baseball at all. He told me about Lansing. A couple of my teammates there, Manny Gutierrez, he told me about Lansing. Charlie Menton, he told me. So kind of just word of mouth, I guess.

All right. So big influences in your life?

Yeah, I'd say the biggest influence in my life, probably my dad and brother, baseball wise, they were the ones that got me started on it. My dad's always been a huge Cubs fan his whole life. He grew up in Illinois.

He knows heartbreak.

Oh yeah, definitely. But yeah, he got me cheering for the Cubs. I have pictures of me at baseball games ever since I was a little guy.

So we were just on stars on sports. We were just talking about Harry carries seventh inning stretch tradition in baseball. So in your brother, younger, Older?

Yeah, I have an older brother. He actually ended up committing to play baseball at Purdue Northwest which is a D2 school. And his senior year baseball season got cut from COVID and that changed some things for him. He ended up going to Michigan State as a student. Now he works in major league baseball or minor league baseball rather. He watches ton of their games, fixes up the stat books and everything like that.

Interesting. Who's he worked for?

Minor league baseball? Just the organization in general.

Okay. Pretty cool. So do you. Do they still give you a lot of feedback on baseball at this point?

Yeah, definitely. I text my dad a good amount. Same with my brother. I'll text him every time I get any video of me with my mechanics. Send it over his way. You know, I love that.

So you get to Lansing, your first year at Lansing, talk through that a little bit?

Yeah, my first year at Lansing, it was definitely rough coming in. I mean, I had shown up here with a back injury and I had pretty much no explosiveness or anything along those lines. So I was feeling pretty lost. I was doing everything I could to play, having just gotten off of one injury. So I was thinking, I gotta play now, now is my time. And it really wasn't. I had to fight through a lot more adversity. Still still had my arm pain. So things ended up shutting down pretty quickly.

That arm pain never really went away after the surgery.

Not really. Yeah.

So then what happened?

Yeah, so I got diagnosed to get Tommy John surgery. Ended up getting that on December 19th of last year and just been the road to recovery ever Since I think that is a huge changing point for me in my career, though.

Okay, what's that road like, or what's the road like for you? Because it's. It's a different road for everybody that goes through it, and there's some similarities for most people that they talk about, but what's the road been like for you?

Yeah, for me, it's been a little bit slower, I'd imagine. I mean, having it been the second surgery in a year, that just means the simple things, like more scar tissues, and they're more. Whatever it is. Not a doctor, but, you know, there's a lot that goes into it. I know. And I guess it was just getting punched in the face and then getting punched in the stomach right after it. That's what it felt like.

And usually during those times, you like to have some people around you, you know? And is that where you kind of turn to family at that point to help through some of that?

Yeah, definitely. My family played a huge role in just me getting better overall. I mean, things like support or even just like, physically helping me whenever they could. It was great. I'd say, also another thing with that is teammates. Seeing teammates that had gone through it, guys like Jeff Agar, seeing them go through two elbow surgeries and come out on top is incredible. And I think that was a thing that gave me a lot of confidence.

Yeah, it's kind of like you. It's. It helps when you can kind of see that things can be done. Yeah. You know, so that's modeling, for sure. What do you think of when you hear the G word now?

When I hear the G word now.

Do you hear it often?

I'll say, when I'm not in the baseball setting, I notice how much average people say that word, and it's a little bit interesting because it's something I never really thought about before. I'll say one word that I've picked up on a ton of people saying a lot is like. And that for me, that's probably my word that I just, you know, that's

really been a thing in our program this season. So I caught a lot of flack from previous podcasts, and counting how many times I've said the G word in a podcast and different things. So I've caught that, and I've owned it. And, you know, the whole thought process behind it is really, we're trying to get you to think a little bit differently, which is basically called rewiring the brain. It's no different than you brushing your teeth with your opposite hand, you know, it's just rewiring your brain. It causes some great things to happen and it really forces you to do different things. And one of our models here is uncommon. And so you do hear the G word a lot. And there is a way to be able to communicate without using the G word. The good is the enemy of great. And we're trying to achieve greatness here. And it's not perfection, but we're trying to achieve greatness. And it's also a communication piece. Because if I ask you how you're doing, most of the people that are outside of our program are going to drop the G word definitely. But we want it on a different level. I want to know how you're doing and it's okay if you're less than great. If you're just, I'm okay, I'm decent, you know, those kind of things, it's okay. But you're using some different stuff to help rewire the brain. So has that been challenging for you as we've gone through this process?

It's definitely been challenging for me, yeah. And I'll say I've caught myself a few times. Last night I was leaving the gym, guy says to me, have a great night. And I responded to him and I was like, aw, geez. I stopped right there. I started doing push ups halfway through the door.

What have you learned here besides the. The rewiring stuff?

I think I learned a lot of stuff that can be used on and off the baseball field.

Okay.

I'd say two of the key things I've learned is how to be a leader and just how to. How to block out the noise, I guess, which was on the field a huge thing for me. A lot of the time I would just get caught up, you know, I'd get in my own head and have my own thoughts just rolling. And they were never good ones. They were never great thoughts either. But just being able to tune that stuff out and just try to be myself through those moments helps a lot.

What is your legacy going to be here forecast for us a little bit.

I want a video of us dog piling here and I want you to show it at almost every leadership you have in the future.

I love that it is impossible to produce superior performance unless you do something different from the majority. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Do you see that on a daily basis?

Yeah.

I've never been on a team like this with our guys taking near 250 swings a day on offense. Our pitchers with almost every resource in the world to get better. I mean, it makes sense why our guys do get a lot better every year.

Juco baseball, you know, it's something that you talked about, you didn't know a whole lot about in high school, and you came from the Division 1 level. So what was it like coming into a juco baseball program? Because there's stark differences, and most people are going to think the first thing they think of is, like, money. But some of the other differences is just time allocations and restraints and things like that, too, that are really pretty starkly different than, you know, amongst each other. So what. What's been your take on juco baseball?

Yeah, definitely. I'd say juco baseball is a way heavier time commitment and overall commitment. I mean, things at the D1 level, they always almost seem to be cut short because you have those hour limits for every week. Here we only really have our limits, but with everyone being so bought in, it's like, kind of feels easier, you know.

Yeah, there's contiguous proximity and things like that. We do have our limits, but it's just not at the. They're not that extreme. And. And so, you know, your. I think I was talking about it in leadership a little bit this last week, and it was like, you know, trying to detail out your Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, you know, and it's. It's a lot. But I think if you want to be. If you want to be great, you want to find your best self, you want to be a part of something bigger than yourself, you want to have some special memories, you need to put in the effort to achieve that stuff, because it just doesn't happen in sports and it just doesn't happen in life. You just can't roll out the baseballs, and you're going to be in an environment where it's sunny and 75 all the time just does not happen. Beyond learning that stuff, one of the biggest things. And you've had a lot of adversity, but I've really been impressed with your growth as a leader. I think when you came in, you were fighting your own fight in a lot of ways and trying to figure out your own stuff and find your own place on the team while you're still facing adversity after adversity after adversity. And then you came back this year and you were just different. Why do you think that was?

Yeah, I guess I could just say years of experience really helped me. And seeing a lot of the guys, I mean, I'm not sure the exact number of how many freshman pitchers we have this year, but it kind of reminds me of myself when I was a freshman pitcher. I didn't really understand, like everything that's going on, but I've picked up on a lot by now, so I think everything I can do to just help them figure it out a little bit more just helps the team get better as a whole.

Yes, you've been an exceptional leader and I certainly appreciate everything that you do in our program, and I know the rest of our coaches do, and I know the players in our program appreciate having you, and I certainly look forward to what your legacy is going to be when it's all said and done here. So I appreciate you coming into the studios today. Make winning in life your habit, not your goal. Excellence is a practice, not not a prize. Build great habits and practices that serve you so you can serve others. Enjoy the small moments in life as they go by in a blink of an eye. Until next time, thank you to all of our listeners. We are all playing a game we can't win, so why not play it to the utmost? Go all in and go Stars. Coach Cut's Corner is recorded live live in the WLNZ studios. Engineering and production assistance are provided by Dalian Lowry. Thanks for listening and if you enjoyed today's podcast, please share it and follow us on all the platforms of social media. You can find more about our program@lccstars.com and donations to our baseball program can be made at the same site. See you next time.

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this is Bob Myers from the Historical Society of Michigan. With a Michigan history moment, Arthur Sherman thought that there had to be a better way to camp. The Detroit pharmaceutical executive took his family on a camping trip in northern Michigan in 1926. He planned to have a relaxing weekend fishing on a lake. Instead, a rainstorm wrecked his tent trailer and his vacation. Sherman returned home determined to build a better camper. He enlisted the help of some carpenter friends and went to work. He wanted a trailer that was easy to set up at a campground and would allow the occupants to stand upright when inside. He soon had a prototype camper ready. The trailer had a canvas cover stretched over curved bows. Arthur Sherman's children dubbed their new home Way From Home the Covered Wagon due to its resemblance to the Conestoga wagons that had carried pioneer settlers westward. Curious neighbors at campsites peppered Sherman with questions. What was this new trailer? How well did it work? Where could they get one? He soon realized that a market existed for his Covered Wagon. He and a couple of hired hands started building trailers in a rented garage. He exhibited an improved version of the trailer at the 1930 Detroit Auto show, where it drew crowds and numerous orders at $400 each. By the end of 1931, the covered wagon company had sold 117 trailers. Covered wagon brought camping trailers to the masses. It outgrew its small facility in Detroit, so in 1935 the company moved to an abandoned factory building in Mount Clemens. Soon Covered Wagon's workforce of 1,000 employees was making 20 trailers a day. By 1936, one in six factory built camping trailers was a Covered wagon. President Franklin Roosevelt's 1936 re election campaign bought 60 covered wagons, equipped them with loudspeakers, and sent them around America blaring the song Happy Days are here again. Covered Wagon trailers even appeared in movies, including Fiberg Magee and Molly's this Way, Please. Labor troubles and growing competition cut into Covered Wagons profitability. The company made truck bodies during World War II, but Covered Wagon closed in 1945 when the wartime contracts ended. Of the 400 travel trailer companies in 1936, only one survived the war. Airstream Historians credit Covered Wagon with launching the recreational vehicle industry. In 1974, Arthur Sherman was inducted into the Recreational Vehicle Motorhome hall of Fame. This Michigan history moment was brought to you by michiganhistorymagazine.org.

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Lansing Community College Performing Arts is proud to present Summer Stage under the stars featuring a 10 minute play festival directed by Paige Dunkle and Shelley Peterson. A wonderful variety of styles and concepts for this evening of theater, including all these Buckeyes by Joshua Thompson Linton A farcical work that touches on current issues. HOA President Bingus Stunk is determined to keep the Ohioans in their place, but there are so many Buckeyes. Will his assistant Gibble save the day? Featured at LCC's outdoor amphitheater July 23rd through the 27th at 7pm in the event of rain or extreme heat, performances will move into Dart Auditorium. For more information, visit LCC.edushowinfo. all performances are free to attend.

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to protect his home and family from disaster, Steve used courage, wisdom and his camera phone.

That should do it.

Way to go Steve. By simply taking digital pictures of his family's important documents, Steve can always have them stored safely online no matter when disaster strikes. Learn other simple ways to protect your home and family before a natural disaster@ready.gov that's ready.gov a message from FEMA and the Ad Council.

My next Move is an enrollment event for new and returning adult students. If you're 25 or older and thinking about taking classes at LCC this fall, the Admissions Office welcomes you with a chance to learn about funding opportunities, program offerings, support services and more. My Next Move takes place Wednesday, June 25th. Register to attend at LCC.edu mynextmove,

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Welcome to Headroom, the podcast where we explore all things essential to mental health and well being. I'm Jim Owens, your host and licensed mental health counselor at Lansing Community College. While you're about to hear from some phenomenal people who have incredible ideas for for you and your life. Podcasts are no substitute for professional medical advice, so if you need help, please call or text 988 okay, having said that, let's get into the Headroom and begin today's conversation. Okay everybody, welcome Back to part two of my conversation with Dr. Anna Kelly, Associate professor of nursing at Columbia University and former supplemental instructor at Lansing Community College, too. I want to add that to your CV here. I love it. To let everybody know you were, we can't say born and raised here, but you spent a little time with us here at lcc, so I'm really proud of that.

Thank you.

So we were talking in part one about your path as a student, which I love for my guests to share, because students can relate to not having a linear path and have it all figured out. And you've ended up in a very deliberate, intentional place where I think you love working and you feel very useful in the work that you're doing. You feel good about it.

Absolutely.

People can get there, can't they?

Yeah. Yes, I do believe.

Figure it out along the way. But in your journey, if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to part one. You stepped outside your comfort zone to discover some of. Or stepping outside your comfort zone at least helped you realize things about yourself. I mean, here I'm talking about going to the continent of Africa and a place where English isn't the native language, et cetera, et cetera. So that probably helped you learn a lot about how you could discover yourself differently, I guess, in a different place.

Yeah, I definitely encourage that for any student who's able to. That's some of the work I'm doing now. We have a global program where we do send students for six weeks abroad. So that's about a third of my work now. My, like, effort, professor effort is involved in that. So we have a chance to see students go abroad to a lot of different countries, and they work clinically for six weeks. It's amazing to watch the transformation, some of the questions they have and the learning that they have working alongside colleagues in other cultures. Yeah.

You must be so excited because when they're going off, you know they're going to come back, you know, ooh, this is going to change them.

Yeah, yeah. And there's difficulty, of course, too. Right. So sometimes asking really difficult questions why they're seeing such injustice and inequity, but so much also the fire to want to make a difference in the world. And we see that with our colleagues and different countries as well. And they want to partner and work for betterment through that nursing connection.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I bet their eyes are just wide open as to what they can actually do as a nursing professional. And your students you're training who are not undergrad students. Right. You're training graduate students for a nurse practitioner program. Or what?

Well, yeah, so it's also a second degree program like I went to at msu, but they finish with a master's degree.

Wow.

Yeah. So it's like a 15 month program.

That's incredible.

Yeah. So to encourage them to sort of step into that next leadership role.

Role.

And it could be a nurse practitioner clinical focus, or it could be, you know, also education or research.

Okay, okay. So they walk out with a master's in nursing for your program.

That's correct.

And some experience working in another healthcare system in another part of the world.

Yeah. For those who choose that. Or they can work in New York, which almost offers a similar experience.

The five boroughs, maybe six if we count Staten Island.

Right.

Okay. I don't know. Yeah, Right. There's a great deal of diversity there.

Yeah.

Yeah. Mm.

So let's go back then. We were talking at the end of episode one there about grit. That's the word that teachers seem to go to now, right?

Yeah, It's a good one. Yeah.

They're coming back from these travel abroad or study abroad programs probably with some more insight, but probably some character development too. Along the way, some renewed sense of, I want to make a difference in the world. And they're finding a strength inside to push into that or lean into that a little bit more, as we might say in my field. But I don't know, what is your experience of churning and this is gonna sound kind of authoritative, but turning a student into a nurse? Because I have to do that. I have to turn students into counselors.

Right, right. And a lot of times you can see that transition happening as they start to develop their critical thinking, higher level processing when they come into a patient's room and they think about what's happening from different angles. It's really exciting to see that. I mean, I'm seeing it more in the classroom as opposed to at the bedside, but it's still very encouraging to see that happen. And they're doing a good job also bringing a lot of the social factors that the patients are connecting with. But I always in the back of my mind think, oh, this is like the best time for them when they're learning. They're going to have time to think about that. But I know the struggle they're going to have when they actually get out there, finding the time as a nurse to connect on that deeper level with patients. Because it moves fast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The expectations for them in their workforce. I mean, I don't know. I have a friend who's a physician and he Said he sees like 25 or 30 people a day, which he told me that 10 years ago. But my head is still spinning from that. Kind of like I could never. If I see 30 people in a week, that's a miracle for a therapist. That's a herculean effort. But is that not right? I mean you're running around from patient to patient and sometimes definitely for the

providers, that's where they're at number wise. With nurses, obviously we have less that we focus on for the day, but there's just so much to do for the patients in that 12 hour shift, let's say. So you're, you're moving. So. Yeah.

And it's not just your brain and your intellect and your education that's getting you through the day. That's what we're talking about here. I picture what you're describing. Like you want them to walk into a room and not make any assumptions about what's going on in the room. Let's really take a look at what's going on in this patient's room.

Well, I like that. I'm gonna have you come in and speak on that.

Yeah, me too. Right. Like I don't care what I expect expect should have happened in the last two hours or four hours or what's written on the board or what's not in the chart. I know what I need to check and let me just start tabula rasa.

Right. Start neutral. And that's something we have talked about. Like whenever nurses give report to each other, it's really important to keep it as neutral as possible. You don't want to put any sort of negative connotation on a patient or a patient's family. And then you come in and you're dealing with the medicine medical piece and then you can expand as the day goes on into the social.

Yeah, but that's part of the job.

That's part of the job.

Yeah, it's actually a big part of the job. And I don't know about your program. Mine is the program. And as you know, I'm on sabbatical from teaching because I'm back in school myself.

That's right.

So. But I still think like I'm an educator and as if I'm still in the classroom, but not quite. But I have a very strict curriculum and our university has a strict curriculum that we have to teach to that the state of Michigan here, for example, because we license in the state has to follow. They must take this course, then this course, then this course and this course must cover these 12 core learning ideas and so on and so forth. So we're kind of running through a curriculum and it's pretty academic and left brained and they got to pass a board exam and they have to pass internships and all these things and we prepare them for all that. That's not exactly an analog to what the work is gonna be, right?

Yeah, yeah, very similar. Yeah. So they have to pass their. What's called the nclex, that's the nursing licensing exam. And so a lot of our focus is getting them ready for that as well. So it's always sort of balancing because no teacher wants to be always teaching to a test.

Right.

So. But we want to make sure that they do pass that because that's important for their career advancement and moving forward. But yeah, how do we get them connected with what they really see but also have that nice foundation of academic knowledge. Yeah, yeah.

I'd love to go on and on about this because trying to draw similarities between our work because there's I think more technical work in my training but we teach very technical things is what I'm going to say. But then as soon as we in classroom do a session or a role play or I have to observe a session, I want them to be totally non clinical in a sense in their expression. They need to be humanistic. They need to kind of show up organically and authentically and not going through a checklist in their head. That's not exactly how therapy works. In fact, I'll just say out front, the main thing we need to do with our client is build a rapport with them and that is an extremely non technical kind of thing to do. There are certain things you need to do to help that happen and there are things you need to refrain from doing to help that happen. For example, I don't need to get into all the details, but there's things. But boy, it can't be like you going through a checklist on a white sheet of paper asking questions and get a biocycle social and then at the end of that examination of their medical history, you now have rapport. No way. That's not how that works. So I don't know. That's got to be part of it for your training as well because you want them to have that rapport with the patient where they'll actually tell them what they're feeling and thinking and what's working and what's not. I don't know. I mean, tell me about that.

Yeah, that's interesting because we Struggle with that a little bit. Because when they come in and we do the admission assessment, there's a lot of checklist with that. Yeah. And so you're going through a lot of questions and how much do you stop and make dialogue about things versus jump into the necessary tasks? So I think it's sort of one of those learned moments. You know, they love to say it's both the art and a science.

Yes, it is. We all say that.

We all say that. So. And you feel that when you're there. But that's what you're always trying to get, that sort of. I like to think of it as a light, friendly. Like you're laughing together a little bit, trying to make the situation a little softer because nobody wants to be in a hospital. And so try to connect with anything that can lighten the moment a bit,

I think can help make that human to human connection, that you're just in any way possible. Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right about humor. I tell my patients or my clients, like, I'm laughing all the time in therapy, there's tears, but we're laughing all the time through it, too. It's just like we're kind of outside the pain a little bit in there. It's a similar for you. Right. This is ridiculous that we're here, but we have to do with this.

Yeah.

That kind of stuff. Yeah. So that's tough. And I know you and me, we try to coach people. I don't know how much you're doing the clinical bedside stuff anymore, but when we have the opportunity to do that, it's awesome to be able to say, hey, you did a good job connecting with that patient right there. The way you leaned in on this question or that question or you followed up this way or that way, I could see their demeanor change. And they really opened up to you more, which is good. That's what you want them to be able to do, things like that. So developing their. But I don't know if there's anything on the NCLEX that tests for bedside manner.

I know, right? That's the thing. And we also think, like, how do you measure that when you're in school? You really can't, so. And then you have to be careful as a professor, like, where's my own bias when I'm watching my students and connecting with patients? So it's a tricky thing.

It is tricky. And even as I'm kind of. You're right. I'm bringing my own bias out here about. Checklists are horrible. But you know what? Some clients, they expect the checklist.

Sure.

They come into therapy and they're like, where's your checklist? You know, how come you're not taking notes? Isn't this important to you? I don't take notes when I talk to clients.

Clients.

But there are expectations that we have our own bias. And I'll say my own journey as an educator, which is a lot longer than yours, even though we're about the same age. But I've been teaching in the classroom for 20 years. When I first started training counselors, I'm not ashamed to admit it now, but it's a shameful thing. I thought I knew what a good prototype counselor was, and I wanted everybody to fit into that. It was a nice blend of some of the greats, but I was kind of trying to shoehorn everybody into that. Roughly speaking, speaking, this mix of. I don't need to give all the names, but you can just imagine. Right. And eventually, I just saw the beauty and the power of all these distinct personalities and typologies of students who were going to be great counselors for different types of people and different types of counselors. And I relaxed into that eventually, and I was like, I wouldn't do it that way, but it looks like it's working for you.

Actually, I love that point, because you do. You come in with this expectations, and you're like, I'm going to make them great. They're going to be ready, and then they'll do something that you wouldn't have thought of. And you're like, man, that worked really nicely. And so it's a good learning moment. And remember that. That's, again, why we need such diverse student bodies, because they bring something unique to the table. And sometimes the way somebody's able to connect with a patient because they have a similarity of a cultural background, a racial background, it's so powerful. And so just allowing your students to lean into what feels right for them. Yeah. It's exciting to watch, actually.

It is freeing, too. It takes some of the responsibility off of us of having to produce, because that's what I was. I was like, we gotta produce the greatest counselors the world's ever seen. That is still kind of my neurotic.

Sure.

Sometimes why I'm back in school. I can do better if I get more education, you know, which I do believe, and we'll see what happens. Right. Although I have to say, there's a little. A little footnote here in my field. The research shows that the higher the degree a therapist got, the less better their outcomes tend to be.

Oh, that's interesting.

Isn't that awful?

Well, if you get too academic, I could see that for sure.

That's the point.

Yeah.

And it's probably. It's correlational. It's probably not necessarily causational. It's probably some who are more clinically intellectual go on for that anyway. And they probably wouldn't have been.

Yes.

They would have got rated about the same as a master's level.

Yes.

But anyway, it's still something that I keep. As I'm now working on a doctorate, I'm like, I gotta keep myself with my feet planted on the ground, you know, even though I have these great ideas, these grand ideas, going back to the grit thing for students and helping them be willing to lean into difficult things. Now I'm curious about. You have to deal with some really messy stuff, and you have to prepare your students to deal with some really messy stuff. Not just. I mean that figuratively and literally, like they're gonna get their hands dirty. And the social context that they have to work within, within the families and stuff, they're not all jovial. Everybody's getting along. They have to be involved in some really highly conflicting situations with their patients and the families. And how do you prepare them for that in the classroom, Dr. Kelly?

Yeah, yeah. All right. Step one.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, we. We talk about this a lot. So we talk about structure, right? Like, how much do you hold students to a certain structure? Because if they have that when they start practicing, they can sort of jump from that, let's say, maybe discipline, and then they can have the flexibility, be creative and things like that. So we're in this process right now. We're trying to figure out how much do we push back on things like, let's say punctuality or different elements of do we offer second chances for issues with grades and things like that? Because I think that's a big part of grit too, trying to figure out when do you allow a student extra time, a little bit of room to

work within a little room to be

human being, be a human. And. And then when is it good to push them a little more? And under this idea of resilience, we're really trying to balance that right now. And also thinking about the landscape of accommodations and making sure that students have the accommodations they need. But we need to also think, is there a point where we need to cap slightly to make sure that they can also, you know, be successful in a high paced nursing environment? This is where we're sitting right now. These are the questions we're working with.

That's really difficult, isn't it? I mean, these are the things that we've talked about most, I guess, over the years is like, man, yeah. Even if I get into my feelings about it, it's like, this is the hardest part of our job as teachers. I know we both love the academic side of things. You love science, and I love my spreadsheets and my NIH articles. And I'm reading them and I'm like, what was the Chromeback's alpha on that? Okay, I like the nerdy stuff, too, but as an educator, I know what they're gonna get into. And you're going back to the messy thing. They're gonna come into some situations that are gonna be really tough. Like, I'll just walk you through. I'll have a day here that can be very light, or it looks like it's going to be light. And then I can have stuff where I've had to have police involved and suicide interventions and various other things all in one day. And then you have to wrap that up and get to your next client. And, you know, you just get overworked, overwhelmed. You can't have too many days of those in a row. But you have to be able to still show up for each person who needs your care that day. And I have to bring a certain amount of energy, dare I say, enthusiasm to each of those times for my clients. It's not as taxing to me now as it once was. I almost forgot how hard it was in the beginning for me to do that kind of work, but I know it's gonna be hard for them in the beginning. And how do we prepare them for, like, as a counselor, you're gonna hear the stories of the worst things that have ever happened to people. And sometimes you're gonna be the only person who's ever heard that. And I'm not gonna say any here to illustrate. You can use your imagination, but it's certainly things that I've heard from people that the producers of HBO couldn't even imagine to make a horror movie about. Like, I've heard stuff. I'm like, wow, that is the. I never even could have imagined that. But then you have to do that and then go to the next person an hour to the next session and the next session, and give them your

full energy and be there.

And you're still rocked by hearing these things, right? You're a human being, and you're rocked by seeing Things and hearing things and preparing. So I know we're kind of swimming around two different things here. One, in our training programs, we want to hold them to a certain level of professionalism and rigor. Thank you. Because they're going to need that out in the work. But then also we hold them to that. But how do we also prepare them and develop them to do that? Right. So that they can handle the rigor of the work. That's what I was going a long ways around of saying. Like the rigor of the work can be really hard some days. And how do we prepare them for that developmentally when the class is over in 16 weeks and you know, anyway.

And then we toy with this idea, like, is there any way we can take grades off the table? I mean, I feel like all of us would love to just take it completely out the window, but how do you make sure that they're meeting those standards? And maybe we all believe we wish we could have smaller class sizes. That could make a massive difference if we could connect more with students, unfortunately. So in my case, I have like 200 students in my class. So it's really hard to be able to know how each one is connecting with the material unless you have an objective measure.

Yeah. There's no other way to do that.

There's really no other way.

Yeah.

You can't get to know them and do a subjective assessment. I had a colleague of mine who didn't give grades actually, and at the end of the semester, he would, in the last class period, everybody have a five or ten minute meeting with him to discuss what their grades should be based on their work and contributions and participation. Very liberal arts sort of style here, certainly. Yeah. And he's a psych professor actually, so that's how he ran those classes. And I was like, I don't have the guts to do that. But I love the idea in a

sense that I love the idea.

People are very focused on the grades, but it's one way we do have to assess. We are gatekeepers to the profession in some ways too. We do want to make sure that they're ready to go.

Yeah. And with our situation at the hospital, I was thinking while you were talking about hearing hard stories. Sometimes we do, but a lot of times it's more just seeing people maybe at their worst because they're so scared and maybe they're angry and they definitely don't mean it against you, but you're the person who's next to them the most and sometimes you're inflicting discomfort on them while you're caring for them so it can come back on you, those negative feelings. And so trying to get the students ready so. So that they don't take it so personally. And like you said, get ready to then leave that at the door there and then step into the next patient's room with full positivity and ready to be open. It's a bit heavy. Yeah.

I think there's like, two moves here. I'll say this clinically, and there's two moves people can do with difficult feelings like that. They can leave it at the door, which is an impossibility. Okay, here's the humor. Right?

Yeah.

But I know what you mean by that. Compartmentalize it. Stuff it. File that away. Let's file that away. We can come back to that later. And the other one is to carry it with you into the next place. Those are your options. I guess the third option is to take time away to go process it with a colleague.

That's also an option, which is wonderful. When you have the moment.

Yeah, if you have the moment.

Sometimes you do.

You do. Sometimes I do. Sometimes you would.

Yep.

And sometimes you will. But if we do the thing, which we kind of do in our culture, which is. I'm gonna put that away and deal with that later. Let me just file that away. Cause I need to go about the business to caring for the next person. That's actually prudent. I think that's probably, you know, if you can go process it with somebody, you have the time to do it. That's probably option one. Option two. Here we are getting our checklist is, you know, compartmentalize it. And then option three is bring it with you to the next room. But we want students to come back or professionals to come back to that file cabinet and start going through it.

Right. That's the thing. When are they going to step back and then process that? Because unfortunately, we have tremendously high turnover in nursing.

Oh, really?

Very high turnover. Yeah. Even in that first year. It's like that first year because you come in so excited after graduation. That's why I would also say a good orientation program is important when they get hired. And wherever they're being hired, it gives them time to acclimate a bit to the new institution. But then, yeah, you're about to get into the issues of everything we've just discussed and time management issues, which are very difficult. And that's where you need to figure out, when do you step back and process everything? You had to sort of shove down during the day. Yeah. So then they come to you.

Well, then actually they do. And I'll tell you, here's what happens. They show up. This is like the Pareto principle. 80, 20, right. It's probably 80% of the case that by the time somebody gets to a therapist's office, their file cabinet's full. And the question they pose to us isn't, are you someone that can help me go through my file cabinet? Their question basically is, can I get a bigger file cabinet?

Yes.

I don't have any room for these feelings. They're starting to come out in uncomfortable ways for me and everybody else. So we need to figure out a way to do something with those things where we either need to stuff them in there harder or we need to make room for more. You know, 20% of them show up and they know the game. They're like, I can't. I know you're going to ask me hard stuff. We're going to open the files, we're going to go through them. Process, as you say. It's like, yep. That's basically what we do in therapy. That's what we do. And I don't. I can't explain to you the magic of telling someone your pain. We call it catharsis. It's a Greek term, means letting the pain out. I don't know why that is therapeutic. I can't tell you why scientifically or clinically, But I can tell you from experience and from the literature, when someone talks about their pain, they're like, it becomes objective to them. And they're kind of like, okay, I'm outside it a little bit. I'm telling you a story that happened to me. It's less subjective and caught up inside them a bit. Little bit more.

If you can just share it, my nursing colleagues. Are you hearing this right now?

Yeah.

Make sure, please. Oh, that's wonderful to hear. Yeah.

And that's where I sort of. I don't know if you can even see my body language here. I grimace a little when I do this, and I kind of brace myself because I'm like, this is not going to be fun. We're going to laugh along the way. But going through that file cabinet, it's hard. And then people get scared because they're like, I started going through some of these hard feelings and difficult memories, and there's gonna be so many more of these we're gonna do. This is gonna be so hard. And I'm like, just keep it tidy as you go. Right. I'm sure this is a nursing skill to like keep everything up to speed and your records up to speed. Don't do all your case notes at the end of the day, that kind of stuff like carrot. Deal with it as you go. But I don't know how you do that with feelings throughout the day. But I'm sure you guys are here.

It's a nice analog. Right. We're almost on the cusp of that. Yeah. So just while you're doing your charting, be like, okay, now here's my 5 minute so of feeling processing time. Yeah, perhaps.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd be happy to come and do a lecture on like articulating and expressing feelings.

There you go.

If you can just do those two things. If you can give a name to the feeling you're feeling and express it in one way or the other, you can walking down the hallway, hey, how are you doing? I feel worn out. And you just go to the next classroom or this classroom. Yeah, the next patient room. It can help those little things.

Yes.

So those of you who are listening to this, who are future healthcare providers, nurses, therapists, or any work you're going to go into, I think this actually crosses over to being an engineer too. Like whatever you're doing because you're working with human beings and you can have really difficult conversations with people at work where egos get involved or just you take things personally that like you say they shouldn't necessarily take them personally. I know you can't train students to prepare and I can't either. Prepare them for the real world. Exactly. But we at least tell them it's coming. Is that the conversation that's going on in the classroom?

I believe so. I think that the best professors or students would say are ones who share a lot of personal experiences because those stories really stay with you. I mean, I know they did for me when I was a student. So sharing a story that has some hardship but a little bit of hope at the end as well, or maybe like a lesson on how you dealt with that can really make a difference. I think we're always trying to impart that.

Yeah, I mean, it's same for me. Right. I mean, hearing that from my professors, especially in my counseling program, hearing that they struggled with things. Right.

There you go, showing your vulnerability.

Yes. Yeah. And there can be, especially as professionals. And you are, you know, you've got a terminal degree or an Ivy League school to show any vulnerability there. Academically, I don't really know if it feels like academically. And here you won't speak about your institution. But does it feel like in academia at that level where you're swimming with sharks, where to show vulnerability is like, like you won't get tenure or you have to play a little bit of a game up there where it's.

I don't know.

Yeah, you have to protect yourself more.

It's a very interesting question. What I found. As much as you can make the authentic connection with students, they respond so much that it opens that door to feel safe to do that again. So I have led with that and I know I keep coming back to it, but a lot of humor with that and just being able to laugh, like, here's some mistakes, but I was able to overcome it by doing this or I had this support. I think those moments sort of help with levity and realize it's okay. I always tell students the same thing when we start the class, which is, you know, you're all high level achievers. You got into this program and I do want you to feel like you're doing your best work. And so I know a lot of you are going to be reaching for that A grade. But I just want to let you know, some of the most exceptional students I've ever had are B students. And I always think about a student, if I'm the person in the bed, or let's say someone I really love, like my mother is in the bed, who would I want to see stepping into that room? And I've had so many amazing students throughout the years. I would trust them completely to care for myself or loved ones. And I'm just, I like to encourage students like be that person who's the well rounded student and do the best you can academically with that. You know, when you put your best foot forward. And that means in life as well, you have to take care of yourself outside of the classroom. So find that balance and be okay with where you're at in that space. Yeah.

Tall order, actually.

Yeah, it's. It's hard.

It's a great message.

Yeah.

Because they need to hear like, nursing isn't just clinical work. It's you're human, you got to do your own work, as we say in therapy.

That's true.

Yeah.

Wow.

But those students who come into the classroom and allow themselves to be a little bit more human with that and not focus always on that next point or that next grade, I think it's important for them to be able to also be that sort of person for their patients. Because you're going to find when you get into the. Let's say the hospital setting, that things aren't always going to go right. You're not. So something, maybe they'll react badly to a medication or something is going to be late and you got to be ready to be flexible in that moment as well. So be flexible with yourself as well when you're a student and you'll translate that practice into your care.

Wow, that's a great message for them. I'm glad you're communicating that to them. As a therapist here, I'm giving you my own assessment, but good on you. That's what they need to hear that helps me do my work. I'm like, have you ever heard anybody say you should be, you know, emotionally agile, flexible with yourself and your perception of yourself?

Right.

Yeah.

Yes.

So we better leave it there. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I gotta wrap this up. Thank you so much for coming down and talking with me.

Yeah, thanks so much, Jim. This is fun.

Appreciate it.

Bye.

Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of Headroom. Remember, if you need mental health assistance, you can always call or text 988. And if you're a current LCC student, free mental health counseling is available to you at the college. You can learn more at LCC Edu Counseling. I want to thank our producers here at LCC Connect and encourage you to explore other amazing podcasts@lccconnect.com thanks again for listening. Take care and we'll see you next time in the Headroom.

This has been a presentation of LCC Connect, a weekly program that features the voices, vibes and vision of Lansing Community College. All shows featured on LCC Connect are recorded at the WLNZ studio located on LCC's downtown campus. Each program is podcast based and can be heard anytime@lccconnect.org if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on one of our shows, connect with us by emailing LCC ConnectCC.

Eduard.