Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.
I am DJ Sir Daniel.
and my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay,
the third what's happening y'all.
welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast, dropping the needle on black
music history and Jay Ray in our lifetime,
We've watched Thousands of hours of biopics and documentaries.
And when it comes to musicians and artists of our lifetime, Jay
Ray, which medium do you prefer?
Do you prefer biopics or do you prefer documentaries?
I absolutely unequivocally prefer documentaries.
Um, I like biopics when they are well done, but there's.
They're not always well done.
So I prefer a documentary.
And plus I want to see, I want to hear the artists themselves speak.
I want to hear people that were close to them speak.
And I love seeing like behind the scenes footage.
So documentaries, what about for
you?
You know, you take the words right out of my mouth.
People are going to start to say that we share a brain
because we pretty much agree.
We agree.
Like I enjoy the artistic journey that a biopic can take you on, especially when
we're talking about casting choices.
because that's always like at
the top of everybody's concern is about casting.
Um, but yes there's nothing like a documentary.
I love it.
The montages of old photos.
Yes.
I
love behind the scenes, footage, old footage.
And of course, I love the interviews.
Of the people that were there
because
it adds so much texture and layer to the telling of the story.
and yeah, that's, that's just it for me.
Documentaries are it.
And.
before we get into the, so we're on this episode, if you haven't figured
it out, Jay Ray and I are going to talk about our experience watching the new.
Luther never too much documentary that came out at the beginning of November,
um, in theaters across the nation.
Finally.
finally, uh, a limited release is going to be on in there only for
a short while and it will be on streaming services in 2025, but.
Luther Vandross is somebody you got to get out of the house and go see in
the theater.
But before we go talk about that, Jay Ray, is there a group or artists that you would
like to see with the, you would like to be the subject of a biopic or a documentary?
Um,
biopic
wise, you know, I would love to see a biopic of like the early years of
Janet Jackson, like up to control.
Okay.
I feel like that could be a really interesting biopic.
um, cause there's a lot of twists and turns in that story.
You know, we got marriages, we got rumors about kids, we got, you know, um, you
know, the family dynamic, all of that.
So I think if I were going to pick a biopic, I would say Janet Jackson up
through, um, Control like up to control.
So through dream street, um, subject of a documentary, you know, a documentary,
I would be really interested in seeing, because I think it would be super dynamic.
Is a documentary about Yassin Bay.
I feel like his, he has.
Such a crazy journey, you know, actor on TV, um, rap star, uh, you know,
now just kind of artists, you know, traveling the world sort of thing.
I would love to see a documentary about his journey up to this point.
I think that would be dope.
What about that?
would be pretty fly.
Um, so shout out to Sparky D
who dropped the trailer for her documentary.
That's going to be coming soon.
Um, and I think I've mentioned this before, Jay Ray, like I
would, I would, love to hear.
LA stars account of how the industry turned his back on her.
Now, LA star, I guarantee not a whole lot of you would have heard of, probably
have heard of her unless you were our age and, you know, watch the Rap City
and, and pump it up and all the things and saw her, you know, her debut, but
she was a, um, an emcee out of the Bronx.
Um, She started, she was signed to B Boy Records back in the day and
was featured on the B Girls Live and Kicking, um, compilation album.
Um, she was the first person to diss Salt N Pepa, which was unheard of at the time.
And What was it?
Uh, right.
Was it something Herbie?
Right.
That rhyme Herbie.
Yeah.
And, um, and then she went on to drop her debut album in 1990, along
with the influx of other female MCs, like yo, yo, Nikki D, so on and
so Moni Love, so on and so forth.
And she had a lot of potential.
She, the album is dope.
Production is dope.
She had a lot of potential, but then she just disappeared.
She disappeared.
And it wasn't until her daughter Reece Steele, came along in about 2008,
2009, and popped up on the television, um, competition, Miss Rap Supreme.
And it was exposed that she was in fact, L.
A.
star's daughter.
And, um, that brought up a kind of another buzz, like, well, where is L.
A.
star?
And there's lots of different rumors about, you know, What has
happened to her over the years.
And I just think that that would just be a very interesting look on how far, you
know, how close you can be to stardom and how far it could take you away.
on the other side of that coin, uh, no pun intended, I'm ready for
Foxy Brown to break her silence.
Oh, Uh,
that's
going to be some, some, I think there might be some bombshells.
I don't know if she's, you know, are people going to be protected or not?
It's going to be interesting.
That's a real hot potato that I think people would be interested
in seeing, especially me.
Ooh.
I would love to see that.
Thank you for both of those.
Actually.
I would love to, um, see LA star shout out to her.
If you are watching this LA star, definitely reach out to Queue
Points because we would definitely love to have that conversation.
But you're right about Foxy.
I never even thought of that.
That would be like, what?
Yeah.
I think that'd be, that would be explosive.
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
So, you know, this particular film, um, I had the opportunity to see this
in theaters in Philadelphia, and it was no small feat for Don Porter to
get this to us to see, it just took time, like, cause I, we had heard about
this, I think when we first started Queue Points, like, there was this
because it was going to hit Sundance.
It was going to do the thing.
And we're like, Oh my goodness.
And people have been buzzing about it since then.
Like we have to see this Luther documentary, but I guess CNN
finally picked it up and now we get the opportunity to see it.
But, um, to your point.
We definitely want to give her shout outs because this thing is such an important,
um, piece of black music history.
Just music history in general, and I think,
I think folks will learn a lot from it.
Absolutely.
So yeah, shout out to Don Porter, shout out to trilogy films.
Um.
you can tell there, there requires when you're going to
take somebody's life story, it
requires, um, some delicacy.
It requires some emotional intelligent, Emotional intelligence
to approach somebody's story.
And especially when we're here in the like TMZ era, the gotcha era, you know,
of everything is salacious and scandalous and people, you know, and people, if
you give that to them,
yes, people will develop an appetite for that.
But because someone like Don Porter and trilogy films.
Is used to doing projects about very thoughtful things like the power of
dreams, which is about women athletes, especially specifically black women
athletes.
And of course the lady bird diaries.
Like
I am so glad that she was able to get ahold of this project
because it was handled well.
Yeah, And you know, let's, I, I saw it
myself.
I saw it in theaters, like Jay Ray, um, sat there and it wasn't packed out.
And like, I knew
it should have been.
it should have been, but it wasn't packed out maybe because
I went, I like a matinee, I
like, Oh,
you are you're a matinee.
Yeah.
I like it early, I like a get in.
I don't like a crowded movie theater.
I like to be able to sit where I want to sit, but it's better now
because seats are assigned, you know?
Especially now that, um, movie tickets cost the arm and the leg.
Yes.
but just initially, what, what were your initial thoughts, um, going into the
film, going in to see the documentary?
Oh, that's a good question.
So going in to see the documentary.
I was most, I had no expectations for, um, the experience of seeing the documentary.
Like I just didn't, you know, I just knew that Luther had been such
an omnipresent force in our lives as we, as, as I was growing up.
Listening to music.
Luther had always been a part of that experience and I went to see
it during its special screening that they had here in Philly.
So it was, um, October 30th or 30.
No, it was like the day before Halloween.
So October 30th and it was maybe 10 people in the theater.
This huge theater It had 10 people in it.
Um, I felt super special being in there right in the, in the
theater with, with these folks.
Cause I felt like we were just having like a family experience, even though we
were like spread out amongst the, crowd.
but I was open minded to learning more about Luther's experience because Luther
is one of those he's pre this experience where you knew a lot about an artist.
right?
Yes.
So there were just things in now.
I didn't learn a ton of new things, right?
But the new things that I did learn were like, Oh, wow, I didn't realize that.
Or I didn't know that, especially the childhood stuff like that
stuff was super interesting.
Um, so.
I was open to learning more about this artist that existed during a
time pre social media and he was very protective of his personal life.
So, um, I was just kind of open to figuring out, okay,
what made this guy tick?
Um, what about for you?
Like, what was your thought kind of going into this?
Uh, I didn't have any preconceived notions.
I just, I was just excited for the fact that, The project was completed and that
it was, it's here for us to consume.
because to your point, Luther Vandross is one of those people that is, was not
super, um, there wasn't a whole lot of coverage on him, uh, even in his heyday.
Um, which was which kind of made.
Which kind of set the scene for artists back then.
it was like, we, we only saw them when it was time to perform.
So there was a lot of mystique around them.
There was a lot of anticipation built up for projects, for performances.
And so when we finally got to devour that, it made it
even more delicious.
It was like,
Oh, thank God.
You know.
I've saved up my money to go see him.
I've, you know, saved up my money to purchase this album.
It's finally here.
There are no leaks.
There's no MP3s floating around on the internet where I can
hear it before everybody else.
And so we're all enjoying this.
together, which brings up the fact that you said something very important.
There was only a handful of us in that theater, but when I tell you, and we
were spread out, but when I tell you, we were, everybody, we all laughed Let's say
at the same time about stuff and singing, like we were trying to, you
can tell everybody was trying to remain composed and trying not to overdo it.
But when those songs came on and, you know, of course,
everybody knows every last lyric.
And so, you know, you can tell everybody's like, there's a lot of seat grinding.
There's a lot of, a lot of muffled singing cause you don't want to.
Uh, Oh, wait, I'm in the movie theater movie theater.
I'm going to calm down.
but, but it was, but I think we all kind of had permission.
Yes
There was like a community agreement.
Like this is Luther y'all.
We know these songs.
We, We, go, there's going to be a little bit of singing and some laughing out loud.
So I think we all gave each other permission to do that.
Yeah.
So two things.
Um, I have a question for you, but before the question, so speaking
to that idea about singing, there was this particular moment.
So Nat Adderley Jr.
was Luther's musical director and Matt, um, was telling these stories and the
funniest thing I thought he said, he was like, well, if Luther was going to do
a cover, it was going to be slower and it was going to be like longer, right.
So, but there was this moment that they show.
It had to be like 86 era Luther, um, because he just had that look where
they were sitting in the studio at the piano and Luther was just a singing.
Luther was just like a singing next to him while Nat is kind of
working through the arrangement.
I think they were doing superstar.
and it was like, They were figuring out all the parts, right?
And this sister who was over to my right and up, she said, damn Luther, shit,
like, ugh.
All that talent.
all of this talent.
That was just oozing.
because Nat was also like, yeah, that.
yes.
And you
know, Yeah, I that.
That synergy that we got to witness is magic.
There's a synergy between when people find their tribe and they,
they're there to do something and they're there to do it together.
And it's meant to be, then you have moments of magic like that.
And it was just like, they were already in the pocket together.
Cause I think, um, The other, his other singer was there too.
It was the other gentlemen.
Oh yes.
You know what?
I can't remember his name.
But they were all there and they were just like, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yes, that was a lot.
That was a dope moment.
That was a really dope moment.
Um, question.
So the
question you have
for me,
So the question I have for you, I think the thing that became really apparent,
and we had heard rumblings of this as Anita Baker went back out on tour, right?
We started to re re examine the career of Luther Vandross, Yes.
The fact that Luther in all of his brilliance, um, Just
seemed like he couldn't get you know, out of the black man.
This is a, of the black singer box, which is wild to me to think about because I
see Luther as such a bigger artist, right?
So, What are your thoughts on that thing that they did spend some
time on the fact that this man really, he wanted to cross over
Right.
to me, Luther seemed like the perfect crossover artist,
but he, they didn't see him.
I'm curious to know your thoughts on that.
Why wasn't Luther seen?
So, you know, we spent a lot of time, we've done episodes on being black
famous, and, um, it just so happened that we, we spent time talking about a white
artist being black famous, but the same Phenomenon happens to black artists.
You can, you are held, you are on the Chitlin circuit, even though the
Chitlin circuit has expanded, you remain on that Chitlin circuit, you
are a household name in black homes.
Um, but for whatever reason, a moment, there hasn't been a moment yet where you
got exposed to the, the larger public, which happens to include white people.
And so you're right.
Like I figured a lot of those songs.
I think nowadays.
A lot of more people know about Luther Vandross because of those ballads.
They
know those ballads, they know that they've been included in
their, um, in their weddings
and major life moments like that.
Um, I think the Oprah interviews exposed them to a lot more people
also, Cause you know, Oprah had, Oprah had a major viewership.
audience outside of just black people.
So, but that pursuit, I can't help, but to think it was eluding him the crossover.
It was eluding him because partially because he was
because of his physical makeup.
Yeah.
So,
you know, in the very beginning of the documentary, it's mentioned about how
you don't get as much attention when you're large and when you're dark skin.
Yep.
Which automatically I was like, Oh, they tricked me.
This is, this is a documentary about my life.
Wait,
did somebody, Oh, I thought this was about Luther Banjos.
This, no, this isn't about me.
Oh, okay.
I literally saw my J Ray.
That was, there was a moment where they flashed a picture of
him and I'm going to find it.
I'm going to find this picture that I have.
And I was like, that's me.
That is literally me by the time, when you see this episode, we're going to put,
we're going to superimpose a picture of
that.
I'm talking about, and you're going to be like, Oh yeah.
So Dan was a young Luther Vandross and that I think because the record company,
they could sell the hell out of his voice.
But the industry was turning more and more visual.
There were visual aspects added to this music industry.
We are, they were, we are a music video industry at this time.
Music videos are super important.
And we've talked about when you're a larger person, the music industry,
you're going to shoot videos, but you're going to be either
animated, or you're going to be only shot from the neck up.
And, you know, there's not, there's not going to be a whole lot of movement,
but I think because of that, and because of his own battle with his
weight and his obsession, and we found that it was an obsession for him
that a lot of those things kept the general public away from away from him.
Well, not the general public, but I mean the, the, the crossover public, because
they didn't know what to do with him.
they couldn't, they couldn't put him shirtless on
a
tub of butter or or, on the cover of a magazine.
You know what I'm saying?
They
couldn't sell love, but they couldn't sell sex with Luther.
You know what that is?
you are absolutely correct in all of those points.
And I think also it's an indictment on how
Luther's representation of the masculinity doesn't fit into
the traditionally masculine.
Like there was a stark contrast between like a Gerald
Levert and a Luther Vandross.
Yes,
start.
Gerald was going to get all of that attention.
He was going to grind in your face.
Yes.
And no women was going and he was as big as Luther and they was going
like it and same with Barry White and Luther's representation of masculinity
presented itself really differently.
Now, people will say that there's a lot of reasons for that.
What I thought the documentary also did really well is not give us tea.
You know what I'm
saying?
Yeah.
I mean, they kind of, it kind of did it,
it it broached the subject because there was, you couldn't not talk about,
um, Luther and his sexuality because of the world we live in And part of
Rock and roll is the sex and the drugs.
We're going to get no drugs from, from Luther.
we weren't getting sex from him either.
And then, so of course the question was going to come up.
If this man can, can do these things with his vocals that will have women shivering
in their seats and he could do these vocal gymnastics to have people fall in love
or want to make love, Why is he alone?
And then he was not, he wasn't shy about talking about how love kept eluding him
and and yeah, and how that kept eluding him and oh my God, the, the, the breakdown
of what any love actually means was, Oh,
I will never, um, listen to that song the same way again.
And the
fact that Marcus Miller said that he was like, I always tell people
if you want to understand who Luther is, just play any love.
And that explains it.
And that song became such a massive hit speaks to the experience that
so many have, but Luther himself was having that experience.
And when his.
Assistant.
God bless that assistant.
Cause when he broke down and he said, this man wasn't looking for love.
He was looking for any
any
love.
which Jay Ray, which brings, why do people still, and we've heard the story countless
times about the brilliant actor, singer,
rapper that reaches the highest of heights.
Yes.
They get the money that they'll never be able to spend in their lifetime.
But They, that fame is so double edged and happiness tends to elude them.
I, why do people, why do people still trying to achieve that?
I wonder why people, why people still trying to make that the end all be all.
Of being an artist and artistry because they all say it.
Oh yeah.
I love making the music.
I love getting paid, but that fame stuff, y'all can keep the fame.
The fame is ridiculous.
The fame will kill you.
I think we are seeing it's because of what society does.
I think what we do to our celebrities.
I've always been really clear, like
the fame is not that interesting to me.
I don't need everyone.
I'm not interested in everyone knowing who I am.
I like to go shopping for my grapes and my apples in my peaceful time and
not be worried about all of this stuff, or at least having people understand.
This is it.
Everybody has, I think, a desire to have a job that people respect and
adore them for the work that they do.
And
that I think is a lot of what it is.
It's that when Luther's on that stage, when he's in that studio, when he's
dropping these records, and this is for all celebrities, like it's their job.
Like, no, I'm just like working.
It just so happens that my job is entertainment I'm here to do that, right?
But what we've done is we've raised entertainment, uh, entertainers up so
that they're not like real people, right?
And there is a desire for folks to feel elevated over folks because
there is so many folks, Right.
So I think it's just a natural human desire.
And I think what happens time and time again, which is why
I'm not interested in it.
You find people that get to that level and be like, nah, son, no, I
want what you got, I still want to do what I do because that's what I do.
And that's how I earn a living.
But I would rather have what you have where you could like walk outside.
So I think that's a lot of it.
And I think the other piece.
To this, though, is Luther had a baseline desire for love.
And that is a very, he wrote about it ad nauseum.
He helped other people discover it.
He gave people language to experience it, but that thing alluded him.
And part of that is also, I think
if you, if you, are like a regular person, And you're trying to date Luther Vandross,
like Luther Vandross was brilliant by every stretch of the imagination.
Like he was going to write you under the table.
He was going to produce you under the table.
He was going to sing you under the table.
He was excellent at what he did that intimidates people.
across gender spectrum.
It was always going to be hard for Luther because he was going to need
someone who was as brilliant as he was.
That's a very small number of people.
I Think you hit the nail on the head with that one.
Yeah.
Yep
You
were either going to,
you were going to either, he, would have had to step down
and not down as in, he would have had to, it would have had to be a
person that wasn't where he was.
And unfortunately he was where he was at.
Right.
Yeah.
You either.
Yeah.
Or.
He was going to expect you to raise up or rise up to be where he was.
And that's a lot.
That would be a lot, especially if you, you didn't have the headstart like he did.
Cause he started as a teenager, you know, singing on Sesame street.
Um, Shout out to that to
our Sesame Street episode you will hear about us talk about Luther
Vandross on our Sesame Street episode So you should go revisit that
But, um, in closing, I just think.
Go ahead
before you before we close.
Um, I want to ask you this question, cause I don't want to forget.
Did you, what was the thing that you learned about that was like,
Oh, I either didn't remember that or that was surprising.
you know This is so funny Really the thing that blew my mind Jay Ray
was that he designed their costumes
I did not know that I did not know that he designed, I thought, you know,
I thought like most people he could have a custom made outfit for him and
the crew, you know, I think he would reach out to a Versace or whoever.
No, he had in his mind.
And this is where you can, um, you can, tell Luther was, A fan obsessed
with performers and performance, and you could tell he was a child of
Motown because the way the kids in Motown presented themselves was very
buttoned up, very, you know, together.
And all that influence, especially, you know, he loved the
Supremes All that glitter, baby.
He loved all that glitter, all the glitter and see when He was like, I
want that, but in a male form, So I'm going to have my suits that be dazzled.
You're going to see me sparkling from the nosebleed seats, and you're
going to see our primary singers.
We are going to be looking the same.
So that I.
I do appreciate about Luther is Luther always surrounded himself with uber
talented people and made them part of the collective from, from when he was with
Luther.
the group Luther to the, um, to what we saw on stage with him and Lisa
Stansfield and Sherry and, um, I believe his name is Tony all on stage.
And he made sure that he wasn't the only one that was dolled up.
Everybody had to come correct.
and
that was a level of excellence that Luther expected from Everybody
that was going to be on tour.
And I thought it was pretty funny that a lot of those things weren't mentioned
in the documentary about the, the TIFFs, but I think we saw that his work ethic, I
think it answered all of those questions about why those, some of those failed
relationships happen with tour mates.
So I think there really wasn't a need to address those things, but yeah,
the, the costuming and his love for fanfare.
I mean, I knew he, I knew he loved flair, but him
putting the, like the sequence, you know, designing the jackets and whatnot.
I was like, Okay.
That makes a lot of sense.
And you know what, especially when you're a big guy, you can't
always get stuff off the rack.
And so I imagine if you, you're a fabulous person or naturally, and you're an
entertainer and you want people to have a really great experience when they come
see you, you're going to go all out.
all out for your parents.
And so you can't have, you can do anything but thank him for.
For just giving excellence for always delivering excellence.
Yeah, for me, it puts a exclamation point on the disco era.
And I think I tweeted this, um, that it is our birthright as black
folks to reclaim disco for the brilliance that it was because Luther
said, that's the era I came from.
If Luther Vandross came from that era in all of his brilliance, and we
look back and reflect on the music that was created during that era.
some of the most innovative.
Uplifting, loving music came from that time, and I think it definitely put
an exclamation point for me on, we need to make sure that we reclaim it.
Um, because I never, the way they weaved it together and when, um, now Roger
said, nah, let's be clear, Luthor's on every Sheik release, like period.
And once you find that out for those people that didn't
know that you can't not hear
him You
cannot, all the, all of these sister sledge stuff.
He was like like Luther on that.
Like Luther's on it it
change
every all of all of them, if all of that, you're absolutely right.
And I love that, you know, the reclamation of disco and hopefully,
hopefully somebody will see this.
Some young, talented person will see this and You bring it back.
Yes.
Um, highly recommend folks watch this documentary, watch
it with your loved ones.
I actually kind of, uh, regretted that my mom didn't go.
I said, mom, Oh, if you want to come and see it with me, but it was like late.
You know what I mean?
she was like, I don't know if I want to do all of that.
But, um, when it comes on streaming, watch this for the holidays.
If you can see it for the holidays, definitely watch it.
I feel like it's one of the, it's required viewing for black folks.
Luther Vandross is the soundtrack, uh, is part of the soundtrack of our lives.
And I feel like everybody needs to see it.
I agree with that.
Absolutely required.
viewing for black households, what I would like for individuals also to do when they
see this, or after they've seen this, I want it to make people more empathetic.
I think this documentary has the power to,
yeah, it has the power to us to look at people.
more holistically and to always remember that what you're seeing
is not always the reality.
people send their best representative and that person that's always looks
driven and, you know, is always happy.
That's probably because they're covering up the compensating for something.
And so I just hope that, you know, we, we just become a little bit
more empathetic other after seeing this movie and that we treasure,
this music more and more each day.
And you know, like you said, just make it a requirement in your black
household because in this right now in this world, the way things are going,
we are going to need to hold on to our artifacts of blackness because
there might be an erasure coming.
In some form or fashion, but while it's in theaters, and even when it
goes to streaming, I think I can safely say that Queue Points highly, highly
recommends Never Too Much documentary by Don Porter and Trilogy Films.
If you have the opportunity, please, please, please go see it.
All right.
Yes.
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We appreciate y'all.
We love y'all.
And like I always say in this life, you have a choice.
You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel,
I'm Jay Ray y'all
and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping the
needle on black music history.
We will see you on the next go round.
Peace y'all.
peace.