Welcome to the Art of Therapy. I'm Dr. Warwick Phipps.

Together with colleague clinical psychologist Marizaan Koen,

join us as we explore not just what therapy is,

but how to do it more effectively,

helping you deepen your therapeutic skills

and elevate your practice one conversation at a time.

It's so exciting to do this again and to be back in the studio

and that we continue with our series, The Art of Therapy.

And really, like you previously said, it's just mastering the art of therapy,

one discussion at a time.

So, yeah, really looking forward to that.

Thanks, Marzana. Share that.

To be doing this and to be able to discuss it is something that I think is important.

And I'm excited about it and to see where we go and where we're headed

in trying to share, facilitate and teach aspects of therapy and nuances. So I'm excited.

I share that excitement. Okay, so if you have a look, so Bloss, one of the previous times we

had a look at the person-centered approach and how that fits into a therapy process.

And one of the aspects that we touched on there is the definition of a therapeutic relationship

and that that definition is that you're in an a-social role. So thinking about that,

we can really dive into that and explore that a bit more.

Hugh, I think this is of great importance because understanding this particular aspect of therapy

and the definition of the therapeutic relationship is key.

So just that we can look at that,

I think is really something so important.

So let's, I'm all in, let's go there.

- Let's do it, okay.

- So part of the, what you identify is the asocial nature

of a therapeutic relationship, the asocial definition.

And one could consider this is that we have three basic definitions when it comes to how we're interacting.

There's many nuances, but I just want to just look at three.

There's a social relationship, a social definition, where usually we both people, both participants, both in the relationships have needs.

and in some way or another socially are trying to express and fulfill and mutually one another's

needs in a social relationship. So hence a social relationship, a social definition. On the other

side of the continuum would be an antisocial way of relating which is directly orientated around

around harming, having an impact,

disadvantaging another, being exploitative,

being manipulative, and with active aspects

of utilizing, using the other,

and relating in a way that's antisocial.

That's the other end.

What we're looking at is an asocial relationship,

where given that it's a therapeutic relationship,

the client is the one who needs support and help,

and it's really all about them, their needs.

And the therapist, of course the therapist is a person,

and the person has needs,

but in the therapeutic role, therapist,

there's no place for one's own needs as a therapist.

It's really what's in the best interests of the client,

what's going to be maximally healing or mobilizing for them.

So in that sense, it's a social

because we're not expressing mutual needs

in this relationship.

It's not a social relationship.

It has to do with the wellbeing of the client, the other,

and how to support them.

So it's asocial in that it's not empty, it's not social,

it's without social,

because it's really orientated around the other

and their needs, their experiences,

what's in their best interests.

- Therapist in that role, them as a person,

they don't become visible as much.

It's all about the clients and all about the needs.

- Yes, very much.

As you say, it's understanding that the therapist

doesn't become visible in a selfish way

or for their own needs.

They're not becoming visible for themselves.

Everything is for the client and their best interests.

And that very much is part of,

'cause you'd noted the person-centered aspect of therapy.

It's so key because it forms the basis of any meaningful,

helping relationship.

And the idea of the person-centered approach

is that the therapist creates an environment

and a relationship that's mostly neutral.

It can never be perfectly.

There are always gonna be impact effects

and the therapist will direct in ways.

But the goal is to be as neutral as possible

so as to create a space in which the client

can relate in a way that's comfortable, where they feel safe, they feel secure, where there's

authenticity, the congruence, there's deep understanding, they're understood accurately,

and what's been communicated is very congruent.

And within a context where they can be more of who they are, and that defined by a relationship

with not specifically directional,

that is a context in which the client can begin

to understand their needs and self-actualize.

So in that sense, that a social definition

is that this is not social, it's not against social,

this is a relationship for you, the client,

and the expression and becoming more of who you are.

and me trying to understand you as a client

from moment to moment and trying to assist you

with your best interests.

This is, as I share it, it's just first person as therapist,

but this is very much, I know that with your own therapy,

you're deeply person-centered,

so I don't know how that relates to your own experience.

I think it's actually hearing it, it hits the nail on the head and understanding the

process behind it.

It's actually really helpful because doing it on a day-to-day basis and then hearing

it, hearing the process actually, it's so meaningful.

In order to explain it and have understanding behind it, I think that's really helpful.

because it's not anti-social, it's not social, it is a-social.

And that fits so beautifully with the person-centered approach

in helping a client self-actualize in that moment and meeting them where they are at.

So that it's without judgment, it's without blame,

that it's where they are at and assisting them on their journey.

It's really all about them, it's all about their clients.

You express it, you just do it all the time, so it's quite something to be able to talk about it.

And I think as we know, there's nothing wrong or right.

When a therapist is directive, it's not to say that's wrong or right.

And we know that in an integrated approach, and that hopefully we'll do a lot of talking and exploring of that in future episodes.

But there's a, it's not, in an integrated approach, one is using a non-directive and

a person-centered approach as the base and base for the relationship.

And then more directive inputs as the therapy develops and depending on what's needed.

But then always dropping back to a person-centered approach would be very much in the relationship,

therapeutic relationship staying very close to the client and what their

experience is. So when one is directive it's not wrong or right, it's not good or

bad, it's just to the extent that one is directive as a therapist one

one's client will respond and it could be a meaningful exchange but it may

different when one is less directive and how a client begins to give expression

especially when it is it's an a social definition. Part of it is also timing it's

like I said the integrative approach it's it's timing and it would work for the

therapist and what works for the client. Yes exactly because the the timing of

that what dictates or guides the therapist and when to be more directive

less directive is again only what's in the client's best interests. So when a

client needs more directive input to go ahead and where indicating that's

going to be helpful being more directive and where it's indicated to create that

space and being more non-directive that's indicated but it all is part of

an a-social definition. It all goes back to that. Yes, yeah. You're how, because it's,

we're all people, all therapists are people and we have our own, we get

impacted from from clients of course. How do you, how do you manage that in not

getting, almost not getting hooked into the social part of it? Yes, yeah. And when

you say how to manage it and what are you thinking about? Exactly. In relationships

all interactions have impact so how I impact on you and you impact on me all of

that is impact so of course in a therapeutic relationship there's also

there's still impact. Yes. And our clients can have impact on us and we are

of visual beings. So from my side it's sometimes it's hard not to almost go with the impact

but taking a step back sometimes and remaining in the social role so not to step into a social role

when there is strong impact from a client. That's an important one you've identified

and I think we'll need to spend a lot more time unpacking this because it's a central challenge in

therapy because clients impact on us and we experience it, we feel it and we're inclined to

want to react on that. But quite often if we just react on that we've actually entered inadvertently

without meaning we're relating more socially, we're trying to manage something and impact on

something that we're experiencing as a therapist. But to that extent we no longer are seeing the

client, we're no longer focused on the client, we're not busy with ourselves. And so we don't

have that perspective to be able to accurately see what's happening. So the challenge is there

is to try not to react. Not again because it's wrong or right, but that we're busy with

ourselves as a therapist rather than staying focused and aware of the client.

So it's actually trying to not react on that and just consider what was that

impact and how does that possibly relate to something that the client may be

having some difficulty with or needs help with.

Does that in any way relate to what they are seeking help for?

And that doesn't take away the impact,

but it helps one to manage it again

without being therapist-centered

and remaining client-centered in a non-directive way.

- Okay, sounds like there's so much rich conversation

that we still need to get to with it.

- I'm very glad we've got a lot more to come

and we'll need to look into this

'cause this is key in therapy.

- Okay, okay.

Joach, I think this is so meaningful

and really understanding this.

and understanding, starting to have a look at the

asocial definition of a therapeutic relationship.

- Yes.

- I think very meaningful and very exciting.

- Yes, I share it.

Yes, we're gonna come back to this, I'm sure, many times.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah.

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