Hi, welcome to another special edition of Transit Unplugged.

I'm Tris Hussey editor of the podcast.

And this week we have Metro perspectives from Metro magazine.

Metro magazine, executive editor, Elle Truman interviews, Paul and

frequent transit unplugged guest, Davey Kim, but some of the hottest issues

going on in transit right now, like funding and just, how are we going

to wean ourselves off the gas tax?

As people stop using gas.

So stay tuned for this whole episode.

Hope you enjoy it.

Hi, I'm Alex Roman, Executive Editor for Metro Magazine, and

welcome back to Metrospectives.

Today, my guests are Transit Evangelist, Paul Comfort, and WSP USA's Davie Kim.

Today, the guys joined me to discuss Paul's new book, The New

Future of Public Transportation, as well as Davie's chapter in on the

future of public transit funding.

This is a great talk.

Both of these guys got a ton of experience.

Hope you enjoy it.

Thanks for tuning in.

Well, thanks for joining me today, guys.

Uh, how's it going?

Excellent.

Doing great.

Thanks, Alex.

Good, good.

So we're here on the occasion of another Paul Comfort book.

Uh, Paul, can you talk a little bit about, uh, the book you have coming up and, and.

You know what, what you tried to capture in this one.

Boom, baby.

Six books in six years.

Yeah.

And uh, thanks to guys like Davey Kim.

Uh, this one is as back to number one on Amazon.

So very happy about that.

Uh, basically the idea behind all my books, Alex, and this one in

particular is, um, I like to highlight Trans in the industry and, and talk

to the most, you know, the most, uh, experienced and people with the most

expertise in the industry about it.

So that's what this book is.

Uh, we, I'd written a book called the future of public

transportation that was published.

If people will remember back, it was published in March of 2020, you know,

the month that the pandemic hit the country, and so much has changed since

then for public transportation, uh, that, uh, SAE, the publisher, Society

of Automotive Engineers, reached out to me about nine months ago and said, Paul,

you know, we, we loved your first book.

We'd like you, we'd like to publish one for you now, um,

on what the new topics are.

I mean, you know, five years ago, You didn't hear about every month a

transit system having a, um, cyber attack where they were hacked and

had to have, you know, uh, with ransomware and that kind of thing.

Five years ago, you weren't even thinking about how AI was going to,

uh, impact public transportation.

Five years ago We weren't thinking about new ways to fund public transportation,

such as Dave is going to talk about today.

There's so many new things that have happened.

So that's what the book is.

30 chapters broken into five categories.

One category is all about people.

The next is about what our modal futures are going to be.

You know, what autonomous vehicles, what's integrated mobility, what's

the future of paratransit, what's the future of mobility as a service.

That's a term that's kind of fallen off in its usage in our

industry, but It still is active.

What's the future of zero emission fuels?

There's another one, right?

Nobody was talking about hydrogen fuel four or five years ago.

Now it's the hottest topic, you know, literally, it's explosive,

let's say, in the industry.

And, uh, and then data funding and faring, which is what Davies

is, and then geographic future.

So it's a great way to look at, uh, what's happening around the world.

With a focus on the United States, I would say most of the chapters

are focused on North America, but we have chapters from all around, uh,

to say what is happening right now.

And the last thing I want to mention about the kind of the way it works is There's

30 chapters about 30 different topics.

Like I mentioned, you don't necessarily need to read this straight

through like a novel, you know.

My suggestion to people is look at the table of contents and find

the five or six chapters in areas that you might be interested in.

For instance, um, you know, Mohammed Mezghani takes a look at the global,

Uh, view of public transportation.

He's the head of UITP.

Dr.

Karen Philbrick talks about workforce shortages.

So you may grab a chapter about something that interests you or maybe you're looking

at your transportation trust fund in your state and you're like, crap, it's

go, we're going, uh, it's going dry because we're only relying on gas tax.

Well, then you need to read the chapter that David Kim wrote about

some new ways we're funding transit.

Right.

And, you know, I think both of you have been in the transit

and public transportation industry for quite some time.

And you mentioned, I mean, a lot has changed in 5 years, 4 or 5 years.

Can you talk a little bit, both of you, maybe Davey could start with how

much transit has changed in 5 years and what are some of the reasons?

Because we're used to Kind of a, um, you know, slow going with people not really,

uh, quick to, you know, grasp on to technology and, and really take leaps.

Um, you know, what's changed and, and, you know, what do you think

are some of the reasons for that?

Well, I guess the first and most obvious one would be something along the lines

of ridership changes, uh, due to the pandemic, due to, uh, work from home,

teleworking, flexible work schedules.

And so transit agencies are having to completely redesign their service

models and operations and rely less on the traditional, uh, morning and p.

m.

commute and offer service at different times of the day and on weekends and

really try to make it more of a, um, Not so much of a commuter system, but a system

that can meet the needs of everybody.

And so we're seeing those changes in a way that did not exist prior to the pandemic.

There are so many changes, but clearly, um, this is a different transit space

than what it was five years ago.

And just really quickly on Paul's book, I can't wait to read all

of these chapters, 30 of them.

Well, 29, I don't need to read my own book.

29

chapters.

29 really interesting, fascinating topics and, uh, such important areas

that we need to better understand.

I'm especially interested in reading about the role of AI in

transit operations and service.

High speed rail, bus rapid transit, zero emission bus,

workforce development challenges.

All of those and so many others are so important and so I'm really

excited to dive into all those chapters and learn from our peers.

Right.

And, and Paul, what do you think's changed?

I mean, I'm sure 10 years ago, you would have heard AI and been like,

Hey, get out of here with that.

Um, you know, what do you think has changed kind of the, you know,

transit taking on innovation a little bit more and being a little

more, uh, uh, forward in that?

Yeah, you know, this may be a little esoteric, but I really think what's

changed is we're in a different environment today than we were four

or five years ago as a society.

Um, the, the pandemic was a gut punch to public transit,

but also to society as a whole.

So we've seen all kinds of societal problems spill over

into public transportation in a way they haven't before.

Such as crime and people experiencing homelessness that now have become

issues that public transit leaders are grappling with and trying to figure out

what's the best way to approach this.

I want to be, you know, humane, but we also, uh, we, we also have to

run a, you know, we have to make the buses run on time, as they

say, or the trains run on time.

So this whole environment, while keeping in mind.

The subject of my chapter that really the heart that all of us need to be

operating from is a heart of compassion.

You know, I love the quote from Martin Luther King who said everybody

can be great and any everybody can be great because anybody can serve

And I just think that's so good.

And that really what we're about in public transportation has not changed.

We are about service Uh, service to people who maybe can afford another

way, but we want them to get off the road and less, have less congestion.

Service to people with disabilities who maybe have no other way

to get where they're going.

Or service to my grandmother who may, uh, you know, just not be sure about

driving at night anymore and wants to, wants to take public mobility.

Uh, so we need to always remember what is at the core has not changed, which is

service to others motivated by compassion.

And then how do we, um, All these different things that Davey

just mentioned, all these new technologies, how do we put them

in service of our core mission?

Great.

And Davey, let's get into Davey's chapter on your book.

I know that, um, it's a big one as far as public transit.

I think, um, you know, we're solving innovation, we're finding

new ways to move passengers, to build, uh, transportation systems.

Um, public transit itself, though, is funded by the Highway Trust Fund.

And, um, we all know about the issues with that.

So can you talk a little bit about your chapter?

Um, and you know, how you delved into that subject.

Sure.

Well, let me start with a really high level comment and then

we'll get into the chapter.

Great.

At a high level, and you can ask any transit agency executive, funding for

transit is a perennial and annual slog.

It is a challenge.

Uh, Paul, I'm sure you felt like a professional fundraiser when

you were running the agency.

Pass around the tin cup, scrape up, scrape enough dollars to keep your operations

and systems and services running, not to mention capital improvements.

It's a, it's a real challenge.

And quite frankly, and I'm going to be candid here, transit is oftentimes

seen by many, many policymakers.

As a stepchild or second class citizen relative to other modes of transportation,

highways and roads in particular, and there are exceptions, of course,

uh, but that is oftentimes the case.

And so from a pure political standpoint, transit, um, does not, uh, compete

at the same level as highways and roads, not a reflection of transit.

It's a reflection of priorities among policymakers.

Now on the chapter itself.

Um, I talk about the looming crisis, and that is, uh, that, that is facing

the gas tax at the federal level, but also at the state level, too.

The gas tax is dying a slow death.

Its days are numbered, uh, and that's, and everyone knows that.

It's no secret.

And, uh, it's time to pivot away from the gas tax.

And a lot of states have been doing pilot programs looking at a road

usage charge or mileage based user fee where you pay by the mile instead of

per gallon when you fill up your car.

And so many states have been doing pilot programs.

The federal government is about to do a national pilot as they are required

to do under the infrastructure law.

They haven't done it yet, but they will.

Uh, probably in the next couple of years, and that will demonstrate

at a very large scale the viability of a road usage charge, and that's

going to be a really important test.

Uh, now to be sure, transitioning from the gas tax, which has been

the method, the revenue method for literally a hundred years, To, uh,

something new, uh, will not be easy.

It will come with a lot of pain.

Uh, there are public acceptance questions.

There is, uh, the question of political viability, political

support, or maybe lack thereof.

Uh, and change is just plain of the word.

It's hard for most people.

We're wired, humans are wired to maintain the status quo.

We humans do not like change.

And so this isn't going to be a painful change, but it must happen because

everyone knows, it's no secret, that the gas tax is pretty much dead.

Every year, gas tax revenues go down and down and down.

And that's no way to run a transportation system whether you're on the highway or

roadside or transit side or anywhere else.

So, what I say in the book is that if you care about the future of

transit funding, you better keep a close eye on the federal gas tax and

what it's, what's going to happen and what will eventually replace it.

Because the Highway Trust Fund has been an important source of

funding for highways and transit.

Uh, and uh, that's going to, that's going to be a big test in the years to come.

And Alex, um, as, as you haven't mentioned it yet, but, uh, I'm sure you

did it in the opening, uh, you know, both Davey and I led statewide agencies.

Davey was basically the Secretary of Transportation for the state of

California, and I was head of the Maryland Transit Administration, and we

both relied on our state transportation funding, trust funds, and so, like, for

instance, in Maryland, where I'm at, It was the gas tax, it was corporate

income tax, it was MVA, Motor Vehicle Administration, fees that all went

into this, and um, and there were some other fees that went into it as well.

But the reason that it's going down is actually a positive.

The positive is that cars are getting better and better mileage.

Uh, you know, cars are getting 30, 35 miles to the gallon, whereas, you know,

we remember, Davey and I remember, maybe you do, Alex, back in the days

when, you know, a big 8 cylinder car might get 12 miles to the gallon or 15,

you know, and those days are no more.

And so people don't have to fill up as much, plus add on to that the

people that are getting electric cars, who aren't getting any gas.

And it's not really fair for people that, for them not to pay

anything for the roads and for transit, and everybody else has to.

So it's really a fairness and an equity issue, uh, as we

look at how to transition.

I think the one thing that people are going to be scared about is, uh,

and I'd be interested in your take on this, Davey, is that, you know,

We don't want to get taxed twice.

We don't want to have gas tax and a road charge.

And I think some people are afraid that, you know, once the government gets

their hands in something, it's going to be very hard for them to get it out.

And so how, how are people addressing that, Davey?

Not to take your job, Alex, but.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good question.

I, especially here in California, I think people, um, we voted in for some

of these gas taxes and now We're paying five dollars, close to five dollars

regularly, and people are like, hey, what did I agree to pay for this?

And you know, in fact, we did.

So yeah.

Yeah,

and so we have a messaging challenge, and here's a a funny anecdote.

When I was transportation secretary in California, there was a legislative

hearing on transportation funding, and a legislator who shall remain unnamed

basically said, I cannot believe.

The state of California is looking at enacting a road usage charge.

We already pay so much in gas tax.

This amounts to double taxation.

What the legislator didn't realize is that a road usage charge would

eventually replace the gas tax, so it is not a case of double taxation.

If a legislator believes that's the case, um, that is also, uh, that will

also be true with the general public.

And so we have a lot of educating to do.

The messaging is very complicated, especially when you layer on top

of that congestion pricing, toll roads, and all of those things.

Pricing in general is very complicated.

Bridge tolls, um, people feel like they're paying way too much.

And so we have to come up with a better, more simple way to explain why it is.

People are paying or will pay all these different fees and what is it going

for and how do they benefit from it?

What's in it for them?

So that's our collective messaging challenge how to How to make it

easier to digest and understand.

Right.

And I'm curious because, um, you know, we've talked about, with

Metro, we've talked about this quite a bit, uh, over the years.

Talked to Jeff Booth about, um, the Highway Trust Fund and

just that there's no solutions.

But there's also been a reticence.

By, um, politicians to raise the gas tax or to make any kind of changes to that,

um, you know, what's the climate in, in Capitol Hill and in state houses, um, to

actually take on some of these ideas, um, and, and move forward to find a solution.

Well, on Capitol Hill, there is no more talk of raising the gas tax.

That is dead.

There were efforts in recent years, I would say the past 10 or

20 years to increase the gas tax.

Lack of political support, too politically controversial.

Now that issue is off the table.

Uh, that's not being talked about anymore.

Now at the state level, some states have indeed raised the gas tax in

recent years, California being one of them and many others too, including

states led by Republican governors and Republican state legislatures.

Um, but even that will not be enough.

In fact, in California, Um, the Legislative Analyst's Office has,

uh, estimated that, uh, gas tax receipts in California will go down

dramatically in the next decade or so.

Uh, even with that gas tax increase that was enacted less than 10

years ago, it simply does not pay for everything the state needs.

Um, so, so you've got that at the state level, yeah, at the federal

level, there is no more talk of trying to increase the gas tax.

It's politically a non starter, and it's dead, and again, everyone understands,

it does not have a future, and it's time to move away from the gas tax, and

to try a different revenue mechanism.

Yeah,

and Alex, here in Maryland, uh, you know, there's a task force formed

by the governor and the legislature, that includes a lot of them, that

is looking at the exact same thing Davey's talking about, is, because

remember, it's not just paying for, you know, public transportation.

It's also paying for roads and highways, uh, and a lot of other infrastructure

projects, bridges, et cetera.

And so as that trust fund continued to dwindle because people are

driving less, uh, and in addition, You know, it's not, it's, um, it's

the hybrid work schedule, right?

People aren't driving into work five days a week anymore.

They're, they're working sometimes two or three days at home.

So all these factors are leading to less and less funds going into it.

So a lot of states and localities are doing what Davey's talking

about at a national and state level.

Yeah, and I'm just, I guess I'm just curious that the politician's willingness,

um, to move forward with solutions.

I mean, this is really, I mean, uh, it could be a hot button issue

in getting voted, uh, in or out.

So, I, I mean, I'm just curious on where we are progressively or, or not

in, in kind of, uh, adapting these changes and seeing that, you know,

something really does have to change.

Well, I think there's a greater awareness at the state level among state

legislatures and governors to tackle this and to recognize and acknowledge

publicly that we have a problem.

Our transportation revenues are dwindling.

We better do something about it and identify alternatives.

And so the task force Paul mentioned in Maryland, um, is also happening

in other places around the country.

And that's why you're seeing more and more states experimenting with

road usage charge demonstration programs, pilot programs.

And, and so, we're seeing a greater willingness on the part of states,

even red states, um, to doing this.

And so, all of those state experiments will feed into,

ultimately, the national pile that U.

S.

DOT will take on in the years ahead.

And so, it's pretty exciting to see what states are doing and their willingness

to, to tackle this head on, uh, because they recognize there's a problem.

And they, they don't need, they should not ignore it.

Uh, they got it.

They have to get ahead of the curve, acknowledge the problem, and come up

with some, some potential solutions.

Yeah.

What kind of time frame are we talking about, uh, as far as federally and,

and needing to get something done?

And, and when do you think that, like, we can probably see something,

uh, actually come to fruition?

That's a great question, and I don't know that anyone really has the answer.

Um, let's start with this national pilot.

That will be a really important test of scalability, uh, where every

state will be expected to include participants on a voluntary basis.

And, um, there will need to be a lot of coordination between

the Treasury Department and U.

S.

DOT, uh, in terms of collection and without getting into the technical

details, there is so much to iron out.

And so it could be a while before there is a full scale pivot from the

federal gas tax to a federal RUC system.

It could be, it could be a long time.

A decade, two decades, three decades, who knows, but, um, it's going

to be a transition and it's going to be a complicated one at that.

Yeah, and both of you have mentioned kind of states taking on this, uh, this kind

of, I'm not going to say burden, but this challenge, uh, of, of, of changing things.

Um, are we talking about any states in particular that we've seen positive

results or, or, Have seen, uh, something that is, is positive toward, uh, maybe

being adapted on a, on a federal level?

Yes, and I'd like to, to, um, call attention to a couple of red

states that are really seen as pioneers in, in the world of RUC.

They are Utah and Oklahoma, not progressive states by any means.

But I love what Carlos Braceras, uh, talks about a lot.

He's the director of Utah DOT.

Um, he's asked this question all the time.

You represent a conservative state, and a road usage charge

is a form of taxation which goes against conservative principles.

And a road usage charge, um, requires the tracking of people's mileage, which could

be seen as an invasion of privacy, which is a violation of conservative principles.

Why are you doing this?

And I love his answer.

He said, well, we believe in the user pays principle.

If you benefit from the system, you pay for it, and we also

believe in pay as you go.

We're not, we need, we have so many transportation investment needs in Utah.

We're a growing state, and, uh, we're not going to burden future generations

with, with debt and other expenses.

We have to, if we want something, we're going to pay for it now, and we're

going to find a way to pay for it now.

That's, um, that's a conservative principle, and that's why we're doing it.

I love that answer.

Because it shows that no matter what kind of state you are, politically speaking,

conservative, liberal, moderate, there is a rationale for doing this system.

It's not about double taxation, it's not about socking people with additional

fees, it's about paying for what's needed.

Um, in order to keep up with needs now and into the future.

And Oklahoma is doing the same thing.

And Oklahoma has a really interesting situation where they

have a huge network of toll roads.

And so, Oklahoma DOT, um, very much believes that because they have a

long standing history when it comes to toll roads, their citizens are

a little more open to the idea.

of road usage charge because they've been paying, uh, for the privilege

of using toll roads for, for so long.

So it's, it's not so much of a foreign concept to them.

They, they sort of understand it.

And so they're getting their, their arms around the idea of road usage

charge in addition to toll roads.

And again, another conservative state willing to really lead the way when

it comes to, um, uh, pricing systems.

Yeah, it seems that there's going to be some kind of a chasm in between finding a

solution and implementing that solution.

So, so Paul, I mean, from an industry perspective, um, you know, what can public

transit do to kind of keep funding going?

And, and.

Is there a kind of, um, is there a possibility that, you know, the, the

current funding that we experienced, uh, from through the Biden administration.

Can carry on, you know, at a bipartisan level, uh, whether we get

a new president this year or not.

Sure, so I'll, I'll, I'll unpack that a little bit.

Uh, answer the last part first.

The answer is no.

Do not expect any more extraordinary federal funding for operating

dollars coming out of Washington.

Would you agree with me, Davey?

Absolutely, yes.

Look at what Randy has to do at WMATA, Washington Metro, right, Randy Clark,

where he has to go around because there's no dedicated funding source.

There's no, you know, millage on sales tax or property tax in the Washington, D.

C.

area.

So he's got to go every year, hat in hand, as Davey said, to

the Maryland Legislature, to the Virginia Legislature, to the D.

C.

City Council, and the federal government This is a four part funding source.

I mean, he spends his time basically, I don't want to say a

professional fundraiser because he's doing a lot more than that.

He's leading one of the most dramatic recoveries from COVID of any major transit

system in the country, but he's having to spend way too much time on trying to, um,

you know, get these folks to pony up money every year out of their general fund.

So.

The fiscal cliff is here.

The fiscal cliff is real.

We have been subsidized with operating dollars from Washington at a very

high level for the last three years, which we're very thankful for.

But now we have to come off an off ramp onto that and The things that

Davey's talking about are just one of many solutions that transit agencies

and governments are looking at is, how can I continue to operate, you

know, keep the fares low enough so that everyone can afford it, right?

You know, commuter trains, commuter services in the past have had 56

percent farebox recovery, but their ridership is down dramatically too.

And so it is a, um, It's a real issue.

And then you combine it up with the issues we're having with our OEMs, the

equipment manufacturers, where a year ago we had five bus manufacturers.

Now we're down to two or three, depending on if you count the

third one as full operational.

And we are in a storm in public transit.

And what we need is strong, consistent leadership, visionary leadership to help

us kind of navigate what comes next.

And that's what this book is about.

It's chapters from 30 of the world's top leaders, helping us to navigate

things like, uh, road uses charging and what, uh, and some of, some of the

concepts are so new that people may not have even heard of them before.

So it's an opportunity for them to get, uh, acclimated to these new ideas

and get some understanding about them.

But where's kind of the, the new thought leadership coming from you, Phil?

I mean,

Are they being raised in today's kind of transit environment?

Or do you think they may come from, come from, uh, you know,

a different kind of area?

I mean, you know, where, where's kind of the new thought leaders,

uh, you think coming from, uh, to help kind of solve these issues?

What do you think, Davey?

Then I'll

answer.

Oh boy, that's a, that's a tough one.

And I, Paul, I feel like you have a much better handle on that.

So why don't you go ahead?

All right,

I'll do it.

I didn't want to just keep, be the one talking.

Um, so it's funny, you know, I just interviewed, um, Andy Lord, right?

The, the executive who's the Transport for London Commissioner.

He's the head of really the Western world's largest transit system.

He spent 20 years at British Airways.

25 years, something like that, and brought so many interesting, um,

you know, transferable leadership skills, et cetera, to our industry.

I think that, you know, uh, APTA and ENO and CTAA and so many groups have

young leader, uh, programs where they're training up young leaders in the industry.

One of the things that I find that is true, especially with young people

in their 20s I have children that age, uh, is that they are passionate

about, you know, And they want a job which isn't just about a paycheck.

They want a job that intersects with their interests and their passions.

And so many of them are focused on, you know, a cleaner, better environment, a

better, brighter tomorrow for everyone.

And public transit.

It has the solution to so many of those areas, and so I think that people that

are passionate for our industry are streaming in from all sorts of areas,

whether it's in, you know, the parking, they came out of the parking world,

come out of the aviation world, come out of transit, come out of some other

industry, maybe it's tech, high tech, there's a lot of people that, you know,

because so much of our industry is tech driven, and I work for a tech company,

so it's all those areas, but I think most of the young people that are coming

in, are not doing it for a paycheck.

They're doing it for a better future.

They want their job to actually contribute to the world's betterment,

and I can't think of a better place for them to put their efforts than

in the world of public transit.

Right.

Yeah, and I'll echo Paul's comment.

I have the great privilege of working with a lot of 20 and 30 somethings,

both in my own company and externally, and they bring so much energy and

passion, and I am very hopeful for the They will be tomorrow's transit CEOs.

They'll be tomorrow's version of Randy Clark and others, and the dedication

they bring, the new ideas, innovative thinking, focus on customer service,

ease of use, that's where some of the great ideas are coming from and will

come from, and so I feel tomorrow.

I'm hopeful about the future and I think the future of transit is in good hands,

especially when we look at today's emerging leaders in their 20s and 30s

who will go on to positions of, of top leadership in the, in the years to come.

Right.

Well, great.

Thanks for taking the time, guys.

Uh, Paul, uh, how can people get this book?

Uh, well, thanks.

Uh, the book is available, uh, at, on Amazon.

It's available at Barnes Noble.

It's available at SAE.

com, which is the publisher.

Uh, you can just Google it and look it up.

Um, and, uh, we're going to be doing a series of events, Alex, like we

always do, uh, around the world.

Doing a book launch, uh, international book launch next month in Vienna, Austria.

We'll be at the APTA event in, um, uh, in Anaheim.

Hopefully Dave, you will be there with me and a bunch of other folks.

And we'll be signing the book, giving away copies of it there.

Vontas has already stepped up and said they'll do that.

So lots of great ways to interact with the authors.

Um, and, uh, we're interested in, in more ideas.

And so, uh, we appreciate the opportunity to be on your show,

Alex, to kind of spread, uh, the.

What I call the gospel of transit.

It really is, um, as we mentioned earlier, it really is Uh, I don't

want to use the word silver bullet, but I can't think of any other term.

It's kind of like an anachronism from an older, an older era.

Uh, but, uh, it really does solve so many of society's issues.

And it is being buffeted right now, like I said, by so many areas.

But coming out of this, you know, we're, we're coming out of it Phoenix like

with all kinds of great ideas that these top leaders in this book talk about.

So thank you for the opportunity to share a light on some of these best practices

so that we can improve our society.

I appreciate your guys' time.

Thanks for the conversation.

Thanks for listening to this special transit unplugged episode.

We're back to regular programming next week.

episode Paul recorded live and on location in Sacramento, talking with Sacramento

regional transit CEO, Henry Lee, about his agency and everything that SAC RT is

doing, which frankly is pretty amazing.

We hope you've been enjoying these special episodes.

We've been bringing you lately.

And if you have ideas for other special episodes, Just send us an email.

Email us that.

info@transitunplugged.com and we'll take it from there.

Trends and unplugged is brought to you by Modaxo.

At Modaxo, we're passionate about moving the world's people.

And a transit unplugged.

We're passionate about telling those stories.

So until next week, ride safe and ride happy.