[00:00:02] So it was a pretty pivotal point for me to decide after 19 years to leave New York City and move back to my hometown, to have a larger space so that I could really concentrate on making my own work.

[00:00:15] We were expecting to get all of that work out of storage for the upcoming show. And it had disappeared somehow.

[00:00:24] So we were just kinda like trying to figure out if it was still in storage, if they just couldn't get it out of storage for payment reasons. It was a little nerve wracking

[00:00:38] Sometimes it would be a good reaction and sometimes kind of a bad reaction. I had someone come in and just look around and say: oh, what an incredible waste of time!

[00:00:53] Welcome back to the Installation Art podcast, the world's number one and only podcast about installation, art, and the people who work with it. I am your host, Anastasia Parmson.

[00:01:06] My guest today is an artist whose work transforms materials and expectations in equal measure. Samuelle Green is best known for her immersive, cave-like installations made of paper. But what makes her practice especially interesting is that even after great success and recognition for her paper installations, she has refused to be pigeonholed into one visual style or material.

[00:01:35] Samuelle has exhibited all over the United States as well as internationally in China, Canada, France. And Estonia. And she has also created art for the HBO television series, The Time Traveler's Wife.

[00:01:52] In this episode, we talk about the logistics of making and transporting huge installations made of paper, about changing your visual direction and many other interesting tidbits about the life of an installation artist. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Samuelle Green.

[00:02:16] Thank you Samuelle for joining me. It's really kind of you to take the time.

[00:02:21] Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:24] I like to start interview with just some quick easy questions to get us going.

[00:02:31] Okay.

[00:02:33] Do you have a favorite quote or a favorite saying you say a lot?

[00:02:37] I thought it was gonna be easy. I don't think that I necessarily do have a favorite quote or favorite saying. I think a lot of my friends will say like: " so I have this idea" and then everyone cringes. Like oh no, what's coming now? So that, that might be it.

[00:02:56] That sounds good to me actually. What's your favorite beverage to drink while you're working in the studio?

[00:03:03] Okay that one is easy. I cannot survive without Earl Gray tea. it's constant.

[00:03:10] And uh do you like to listen to anything while working?

[00:03:15] It depends what I'm doing. A lot of times I work in silence. I kind of use that time to be inside my own head.

[00:03:25] And also if you weren't an artist, what would you be?

[00:03:28] I've never thought about being anything but an artist. I feel like I would still be in some sort of creative field. yeah. I yeah, can't imagine not doing what I'm doing.

[00:03:40] Okay. Well, let's talk about that. Um Let's start with your very beginnings. Tell me briefly where did you grow up and were you an artsy kid?

[00:03:55] I grew up in a small town in rural Pennsylvania and I was definitely an artsy kid. I grew up in a family who... They were always building things and making things. My mom did a lot of sewing and painting and my dad taught woodworking and metalworking and blacksmithing. So I was always around all of these creative processes.

[00:04:18] Ooh!

[00:04:20] And I was also in this area where I was surrounded by nature, I grew up on what was my great grandparents' dairy farm. So there was a lot of woods to explore and land to explore and just being around these open spaces for my whole childhood.

[00:04:37] Mm-hmm. So did you go and study art?

[00:04:41] I did. After high school I went to Philadelphia for about a year to Tyler School of Art. And there I kind of continued learning different skill sets. Like I said, at home I had worked with my family, building up these skills that were a little more practical. And then when I started at Tyler, I did things like ceramics and glass blowing and painting.

[00:05:06] And then after about a year there, I moved to New York. 'Cause I wanted to see what it was like to live in New York City. And then I spent about a year working there, working at Pearl Paint and different freelance jobs, and then went back to school at Parsons.

[00:05:21] So what did you primarily focus on during your studies? What mediums or interests?

[00:05:28] So when I was at Parsons, I actually was focused a little more on painting. I did a lot of painting and drawing. I was still always interested in pulling in other materials into my work. But at the time, everything I worked on was very small 'cause I had a very small studio space, a very small apartment that was shared. So I was kind of, you know, contained to this five by seven or smaller format. So my work has really changed since then.

[00:05:56] Yep. So how did you then into making your installations and large scale sculptures?

[00:06:06] So in my time in New York, I worked at a lot of galleries and museums and like I said, doing just a bunch of different freelance work. So I was exposed to different artists making larger work and trying to figure out how to install their work and troubleshooting and doing fabrication work. Just kind of all around me were, were these people doing these larger things and I realized that I couldn't quite afford to do that in New York. So it was a pretty pivotal point for me to decide after about 19 years to leave New York City and move back to my hometown, to have a larger space so that I could really concentrate on making my own work. Which it turns out that I ended up utilizing all those skills in construction and building that I had learned as a kid and integrating that with my fine arts education to develop this visual language that I'm still working in.

[00:07:10]

[00:07:10] Was it a difficult decision to leave New York or a liberating one?

[00:07:14] It was both. It was difficult because there were so many things about New York that I like. But luckily I'm only about two hours away so I could still go spend time there and see friends there and stay with people that I know. 'cause there's just so much to do there, there's always live music, there's always shows to see. You know, it's vibrant and there's a lot going on. But it also really felt like it was time for me to focus on my own work instead of kind of expending all of my creative energy and physical energy on building things for other people. So that part I think was really liberating. Like, it was: oh, I can do this, I can you know, kind of detangle all of these ideas that are in my head and actually build them in the physical world instead of just thinking about them and making sketches of them and writing about them.

[00:08:08] Yeah. So did you find thatthat affected your career in one way or another as well?

[00:08:16]

[00:08:16] Absolutely. So I, at that point transitioned from the freelance work to full-time working on my own pieces because it was just a more affordable way of life. And like I said, I had a big studio space and I could realize these projects.

[00:08:35] The first really large scale piece I did was in my hometown, in my studio, my current studio. And that was an all encompassing, like huge installation out of the rolled paper pieces that I make.

[00:08:50] And that is really what kind of gained some traction that people were coming to see. It was a different experience than showing artwork in New York. It was engaging a community and kind of opened up this world of installation art to people who weren't necessarily seeking it out or you know, they would just kind of happen upon it and not expect it.

[00:09:16] And then it just started snowballing from there to other exhibitions.

[00:09:21] And how did that first opportunity to show something really big, how did that come about?

[00:09:28] So I had done some smaller work in a similar way. And I was like, what if I just cover my entire studio? And at that time was able to have enough free time. To actually see the project through. I was really lucky to have family and friends who helped me. And it was unknown to me that libraries actually throw away tons and tons of books. So I was able to gather a lot of free material to use for the project.

[00:10:00] One thing that I did was create a Hatch Fund for myself, which I had never asked for money for projects before. So it was partially funded through Hatch Fund.

[00:10:12] What's that, like crowdfunding?

[00:10:14] It is, yeah, a crowdfunding platform.

[00:10:17] tell us more about that. How did that work?

[00:10:20] Uh, I found it really stressful 'cause I normally would just work a bunch of jobs, make some money, do a project. And that's, I was like. People really gonna wanna give me money to see this through? And, and people were really generous and they did. And it was fantastic in that way. But again, a little worrisome to me that I was asking for this. But it really kind of... yeah, it was an interesting experience. I don't know if I would do it again.

[00:10:51] Why?

[00:10:52] uh, just, the whole asking too much of people. 'cause there's generally people that you know that are giving to you and there's a little bit of guilt.

[00:11:01] Right. So did you do it like an in-person, collection jar or like a Kickstarter online thing?

[00:11:09] It it was online and Hatch Fund does something where they're a nonprofit so they could take people's donations and they were tax deductible since they're a nonprofit. And then they gave the money from Hatch Fund to the artist.

[00:11:22] Cool. Well, I think you're the first guest who has used crowdfunding for a project and I think that is very cool and interesting. A unique approach.

[00:11:34] yeah, I had friends who had done similar things before who told me about it and it seemed to get their projects off the ground,

[00:11:41] Mm.

[00:11:42] so I'm willing to try it.

[00:11:44] Yeah. So do you build everything yourself when you're making these huge installation works?

[00:11:52] So that, that was an interesting learning curve for me. 'cause prior to doing these large installations, art making was always such a solitary process for me. And doing these larger pieces, like I definitely have enlisted help. Which a lot of times, my family gets drawn in and my friends get drawn in. Who are all artists and builders themselves, so that's helpful. But of course that can also be an interesting process 'cause they're visual people and everyone kind of has their own ideas about how things should be sometimes. So yeah, that was part of the learning curve.

[00:12:29] In the first really large installation that I did, I would open up the space on Thursday nights, we would have food and drink and people would come in, friends or other community members and help kind of fill in all the spaces with paper. And it just became like, like a little party, art making party.

[00:12:49] But then I had to um, think about it a little bit. 'cause even in making that, when you show somebody how to do a particular part of something, in the way when I used to do faux finishing work, we would always have to trade spaces and jump around. 'cause no matter how similar the products are you're using or the technique, everybody has their own hand and you can see it. So we had to kind of assign people places and have them jump around so that it didn't look too disjointed as a project.

[00:13:20] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how does the installation process work? I mean, it sounds like you build it all studio in panels or sections, or how does it work? Do you install most of it site specifically? What does that look like?

[00:13:38] So again, with the first large one I did, I had built that all site specifically, not realizing that I was gonna be doing other projects like it. So since then I've developed a system where I build these flat panels, in the studio. They're each about six foot by eight foot.

[00:14:00] And then since those panels are just flat when they're brought to the site, I kind of react to the architecture of the site to see how to twist and bend and manipulate the panels to work with that specific space.

[00:14:16] Okay, so they're quite like flexible in a way.

[00:14:20] Yeah, they are, they're really malleable, which is nice. And then there's all these kind of seams you end up that you have to fill in. And then I had to create these other shaped pieces that you know, fill in these other bit sized parts. And I'm constantly pulling things together and pushing things apart and adding pieces on site.

[00:14:40] so does that mean that you've got like a large selection of panels now that you can reuse and recreate in different spaces? Or are you still making new ones?

[00:14:54] I do have a selection of panels that I'm reusing in spaces, but I do find myself making new ones as well because every time I'm like, oh, this should be a little bit different, or that should be a little bit different. Or I kind of I feel like I always need more. I'm like, oh, I could do more. I could fit more, I could add more. And, and it keeps growing

[00:15:14] Right.

[00:15:15] And sometimes I can't store everything. So it's like, if, if a show comes down, I try to keep as many panels as possible, but if they're too damaged, then I have to part with them, which is not easy for me. So.

[00:15:33] Yeah, let's talk about that actually. Making work, making installation using primarily paper

[00:15:39] mm-hmm.

[00:15:41] is like a two-edged sword in that it's easy material to get, quite light to transport, But also really fragile. Talk us through that aspect.

[00:15:55] It's less fragile than you would think. I know people look at it and they're like, don't touch it. But you can really manipulate it a lot. I think, because the cone structure has... just like the way it's rolled, it really holds its shape well. And even if they do get bent a little bit, you can pull some wrinkles out and add some new ones around them and kind of get this little bit of growth and decay feeling from it.

[00:16:21] And the way that I move the panels around, I'll always rent a truck and kind of hang them like curtains, face to face, back to back. And they travel relatively well.

[00:16:31] Yeah. Storage always becomes an issue. I have a large studio space but I don't wanna take it up with storage, so I end up renting other storage spaces, which can get kind of expensive. But I find that keeping and reusing the panels is really helpful. And they do have a really long lifespan for paper.

[00:16:54] Okay. So how long does it typically take you to make something, like a site specific installation, start to finish?

[00:17:03] So they're, since I do it in different stages, like if I were making the kind of six by eight panel in my studio, a single panel, that's probably about two to three days. But each site specific installation is made up of, depending on the size, of course, like 20 to 30 panels.

[00:17:26] And then once I bring them to site, again, depending on the size, it usually takes I would say between four and 10 days to actually install it on site.

[00:17:38] Wow.

[00:17:40] Because I do make sketches and drawings and sometimes small models before going into the space but of course, once I get there I'm like, oh, well I'm kind of gonna do it like the drawing, but I wanna change this part and change this part and change this part. And, you know, actually physically being in the space really determines the final outcome. So there'll be some time choreographing the pieces in the space and securing everything. And a lot of times I need to build a wood armature below the pieces. So that also takes a bit of time in the space.

[00:18:15] You build that basically in the space, specifically for that?

[00:18:21] Yeah. The wood armatures are built on site as I'm in the space, just to get a feeling of how you can walk around them. And you always have to think about how in a public space everybody can easily move around them. So that sometimes I'll think something looks really good, but it's like too close to an exit or too close to a sprinkler or

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] to a fire alarm. So there's all of those concerns that, that shape the piece as well.

[00:18:51] I was wondering about like how would you attach those in a space temporarily where you can't really drill holes into the walls and stuff?

[00:19:01] yeah, actually there's, early on when I was doing a piece, working with a curator who was pretty inexperienced. And when I went to install it in the space, they were like, you know, you can't, you can't put screws in the wall. And I was like,

[00:19:15] Oh, thanks for telling me.

[00:19:18] yeah. It's like, well, it would've been nice to know that beforehand. But that's when I drew on again, sort of all those skill sets I had developed and learned in the past where it was like, okay, so I need to build these pressure fit temporary walls that I can then attach to. So it's like, okay, but it adds another layer of complexity to the installation process.

[00:19:42] you know, in the end it was fine, but

[00:19:45] I mean. It just goes to show: teach your kids woodwork. It will always come in handy.

[00:19:52] Absolutely. Yep, absolutely. My dad would like to hear that.

[00:19:57] What are you like during the install period and how do you deal with last minute issues?

[00:20:05] I kind of like working under pressure. It's sort of where I thrive. I'm like, okay, really focused. I might not talk to anybody else, but I'm like, I'm just there and focusing on what I'm doing. So, you know, and things like that do come up, but I think the problem solving part is really interesting for me. Like, oh my gosh, we have this major issue. How are we gonna make it not look like a major issue? And just yeah, drawing from doing them in the past or other jobs I've had. I feel like there's always some sort of solution that'll work well.

[00:20:41] Mmm. What about things like the pesky fire marshals? Have you ever had anyone tell you, oh, this is a flammable material or you know, something along those lines?

[00:20:52] Yeah, that's pretty often a question. But actually since the beginning I have been fireproofing them.There's a really great product from Roscoe that's specifically made for paper and cardboard. Um, and it's a spray on flame retardant. Yeah. So I do use that.

[00:21:13] that's really cool. I did not know that was an option that you can spray something on that doesn't damage or alter the quality of the paper.

[00:21:22] Yeah. You spray. I was afraid at first, you know, I did a sample and I thought it was gonna wrinkle or, you know how sometimes when paper gets wet it gets wavery, but it's. Yeah, it's worked really well for me. And I've actually had fire marshals come and flame test it. It's just like kind of, it chars a little bit but doesn't go up in flames, which is fantastic.

[00:21:44] okay. Yeah. Well that's good. That's a great little insight. What about the other unpredictable: people? Because your work looks really tactile, it looks like something you'd want to touch or even hug. Does it happen a lot? Does stuff get damaged by the public?

[00:22:08] mean, I think people do reach out and touch it often. But it doesn't bother me as sort of that like growth and decay and I like that people are experiencing it in different ways. Like, maybe don't, maybe don't hug it, maybe don't smash it, but people do touch it and that's okay.

[00:22:28] When I had it in my studio space, I definitely had dance parties inside the sculptures. So there,there were a few casualties for the paper that during those, but yeah it's again, relatively durable.

[00:22:44] Do you have any stories of something going wrong or getting damaged during an exhibition?

[00:22:51] so there was a time I had had a show in Shanghai. Which was a really strange process. There is the language barrier first of all and then trying to get materials there, even though I had sent a materials list, it was difficult to know where to get things and how to get them. And the curators were incredibly helpful. But there I had to build everything on site, you know, it was just too massive to ship. So...

[00:23:24] mmm, so including the paper panels?

[00:23:28] Yeah, everything was just built on site. And that, it was sort of amazing because they had so many interns helping me. So there was this kind of extra stress for me of teaching other people how to do this work and of course in a language that I don't understand.

[00:23:48] And after that show it like all got completed, that was fine. They had put the work in storage and I had gone back again. Maybe 'cause that was pre pandemic and I had gone back again after I could travel and we were expecting to get all of that work out of storage for the upcoming show. And it had disappeared somehow.

[00:24:13] So we were just kinda like trying to figure out if it was still in storage, if they just couldn't get it out of storage for like payment reasons. The, the curator was a lifesaver again because she lined up so many people to help, but it was a little nerve wracking to start from scratch when I thought I was gonna have all of this material to work with and add to it and be able to do this even larger installation.

[00:24:42] Yeah, so that, that one was kind of... a little bit of a difficult one, but again, I was working with really great people. So that's always super helpful.

[00:24:52] So how long did you have in the end to do everything from scratch again?

[00:24:57] About two weeks.

[00:24:58] Wow.

[00:24:59] Yeah. But they had a lot of interns. They like so much help and, and, and they were just so focused on helping. It was, yeah, that part was really nice. But it also kind of led me to a bit of a different way of working. What I had envisioned for the space originally is not what I ended up making because we had to figure out what was sort of the quickest, easiest way to make a lot of forms that were easy forms to deal with and finish up. So it came out very different than my original intent.

[00:25:39] Hmm. do you think it still worked or would you rather it was the original idea?

[00:25:45] I mean, I think it still worked. Of course in some ways I would rather it the original idea, but also having to do it in this other way helped me think about, oh, how can I do this differently in other installations or can I use this process to add to other existing installations? It looked a bit more like a bouquet than an undulating form. So it was just, it had a different feeling,

[00:26:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:18] But I didn't dislike it.

[00:26:19] Right. What about your other overseas installations like you've done, you've done something in China, but also in Italy And then I noticed in the middle of nowhere, Estonia, which is where I'm from originally.

[00:26:35] Oh really?

[00:26:36] I was like, oh, what? That's so random.

[00:26:40] Oh wow.

[00:26:41] all, how did these opportunities find you? And then did you also make everything from scratch at location in those instances?

[00:26:53] So in Estonia, which I loved by the way, it was an amazing place, I had applied to a residency there at TAKKK. And it was amazing, it was an old manorhouse that was then turned into a studio space. And the hosts were fantastic and I think they're still doing the residency program, I really recommend it to anyone.

[00:27:17] And that, yes, it was built all onsite. And the reason I had applied to it was because part of the, the residency was taking over an old paper factory and I was like, paper! Great! Sounds amazing. Sounds right up my alley. And I ended up building the installation in an old wine cellar, so it was partially open to the outdoors but undercover.

[00:27:47] And yeah, I spent most of the time in Estonia rolling paper with a couple of assistants. So I didn't get to see a whole lot of the country. But um it was... and that was a really neat installation because I would every once in a while get notes from them saying oh, there's a bat living in your installation and a bird built a nest in it.

[00:28:11] And which seemed kind of perfectly aligned with my concept for the work where it's really inspired by this architecture and nature.

[00:28:20] Yeah. Cool. Have you done any other residencies? I'm always curious how installation artists approach a residency. Like, it's not, it's not the most obvious thing to do.

[00:28:33] Yep. That's actually the only residency I've done. I kind of, I go back and forth trying to decide if I should apply to them or if I should just use that time to spend in my studio where I have everything that I've been working with at my fingertips and like the shop and places to gather materials. So I think, yeah, I'm, maybe I'll do one again. I don't know. I might miss my cats too much.

[00:29:04] Yeah, it's kind of a difficult, difficult to strike that balance between like what do you do at a residency if you don't have all your tools and your materials? And then if you build this installation on site, then you have to worry about what to do with it When the residency is over, like yeah.

[00:29:26] Yeah, luckily the piece in Estonia stayed there and it's part of the permanent collection that they're building. Which was great!

[00:29:33] So it's still there?

[00:29:35] It is.

[00:29:36] Oh, okay. Well, I'll have to go

[00:29:37] as far as I know.

[00:29:38] check it out next time I'm there.

[00:29:40] Yes,

[00:29:43] See the bats and the birds.

[00:29:45] Let me know how they're doing.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:53] And then the piece in Italy I also built onsite. And that was another one that I kind of relied on the people coordinating the show because it was in Venice and the only way to get your materials there is by boat, which I was like, oh, okay. Let's see how this goes but. And again, we had a couple of great volunteers helping. I often travel with a couple people that work with me, um Terry and Christopher who have helped me with projects for a long time. So they also, you know, facilitate a lot of the things that I need.

[00:30:34] And how do these large projects, how do they get funded?

[00:30:39] Huh. How do they get funded!? I a lot of times will still pick up some freelance work to just put toward a project. I've been doing smaller commission pieces. Which is fantastic. I've been working with Holly Hunt design, doing sort of smaller wall pieces that are made of different papers, are often more colorful and fit into, you know, a normal space, like an office or a home or, or something like that. So that's really helpful to have that.

[00:31:19] I did receive a grant this past year. I've been applying for more grants. Um, yeah so it's somewhat, somewhat random, but the grant that I received kind of funded a project that is also large scale but for outdoors and materials wise, not related at all to the paper pieces I've been doing. It's a reflective piece that's made of metal and reflective materials that's meant to be seen by the roadside. It's activated at night by car headlights and flash photography. So that's kind of a, a different direction.

[00:31:59] Yeah, I found that actually very interesting. Like your paper work has found quite a bit of success, it's been viral, it's been covered by the press a lot. And then you suddenly switch and do these outdoor reflective works. Tell me about that decision to just change lanes and materials and like, is it hard, is it scary?

[00:32:23] I mean, one thing I still am doing the paper pieces. I, I love doing them. They're meditative. I kind of feel like they can grow even more. And I can dive deeper into that world, but also in my head, there's this tangled web of ideas that I need to pull some things out of and kind of... look, I need to extract that and actually do it to see if it's something that I wanna keep doing. So it's an idea that I've had for a while and I just, like I said, I was awarded a grant and it was an opportunity to just try something different that I've been wanting to do.

[00:33:02] And I think it's hard to not move around between materials because I came up in such a diverse way of working that I'm always like, oh, now I wanna try this, now I wanna try that, now I wanna do a little bit of this. And. And I think, yeah, this kind of allowed me to move into the outdoor space.

[00:33:28] And what do you think, do you like doing stuff for the outdoor space? Is it utilizing like a different part your brain or a different method? What's the kind of balance there?

[00:33:42] method is completely different. You know, the, the forms I've been using for outdoors are not organic at all. They're very structured, very rigid. And it's also kind of one of the times that I'm not using found materials or leftovers.

[00:34:03] So that's a very different process for me, I need to wrap my head around like, oh, I need to order like 700 pounds of metal rod. And then I you know, figuring out the cutting and I have Christopher welding for me and kinda just, it's in a way, less tactile for me, which I don't really like. Like are we to the part yet where I'm gonna paint them and I'm gonna put the material on them and configure them outside because yeah, it feels very different.

[00:34:37] Mm-hmm. You've also created work for TV and film sets, which seems like a very different context from exhibition spaces. How did you get those opportunities and what was it like doing that?

[00:34:54] So it is pretty different than being in the fine art world. And in my freelance work, I had worked on set a bit doing set decorating and prop styling. So I kind of had some idea of what to expect. The opportunities that I had, actually one of them came through Instagram

[00:35:14] Of all things.

[00:35:15] I was like, oh, people do just find you okay. And the,

[00:35:20] Glad to hear that it's good for something.

[00:35:21] Yeah, not just doom scrolling.

[00:35:23] The other opportunity came through the person who had shown my work at Art on paper in New York.

[00:35:32] He thought it would be a really good fit for someone he knew who was working on this TV show. And I was like, all right I'll try it. Why not? I think there was a point in making these paper installations that I wouldn't have done that. Like it didn't feel fine art enough or something. But I think at that point I was ready to kind of like, okay, these can move on to do other things and I can develop some new ideas that are more along the fine arts lines. Which may have also pushed me to create these outdoor works.

[00:36:13] Did it feel like basically like a job or still like making an artwork?

[00:36:19] A bit of a job until I actually started seeing it come together. Then it was really reminiscent of the original paper installation that I did, and it felt good to get back into that world where it was just this huge cavernous space. And then it became an interesting thing too to see someone else, you know, they have their lighting department, so I'm like, oh, that's how they're. Lighting it, okay, you know, where normally I have the final say over the lighting and sometimes there's sound in my installations.

[00:36:59] Oh okay.

[00:37:00] So that, that part, I mean, I by no means think they did a bad job of lighting it, but it was just interesting letting go of a lot of that control.

[00:37:09] Yeah. For any listening who might be curious about working in tv, what should they know going in? What kind of different expectations and creative control and such can we expect?

[00:37:25] I mean, I think I was pretty lucky that we had a back and forth where they created a map of the area that they wanted me to make the piece in. And that map kind of kept changing and getting bigger and bigger, but the budget did not expand with the scope of the project. So I needed to like, okay, I need to not be afraid to say like, okay, this is what I can do for this amount of money. Which I'm always worried that they're gonna say, nevermind, we'll find someone else. But they didn't so. I think that's a good thing to always keep in mind with all projects.

[00:38:05] And, you know, there are just different things you have to be aware of. Like, oh, we need a specific path for the camera to travel. We need this area to be able to break away and move out so we can get a shot from this particular angle. So there's a little more consideration put into exactly how the piece is assembled so that it can move around and make pathways accessible for the film crews.

[00:38:35] Hmm. And was it like good pay or just meh? Right.

[00:38:43] Um, we'll go with in between there, closer maybe to meh.

[00:38:47] Okay. Good to know.

[00:38:51] But it was, I think because I represent myself, like I don't have a gallerist or an agent or anyone doing that work on my behalf, I think it's difficult for me to negotiate things for myself.

[00:39:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:08] So i I think, think it can be done much better.

[00:39:13] Mm, right? Yeah. What one mistake you only needed to make once in your art career?

[00:39:22] There's so many mistakes. It's just, I don't know where to start. I think that I didn't focus on my own work as early as I should have. Like I said, I was in New York and trying to pay rent and treading water financially and doing all of these other jobs, which were great learning experiences. And I have like a huge amount of skill, like this big broad skill set. But I think I really should have been focusing on my own work. Mine was always kind of, oh, I'll do all this and then I'll make my little paintings at night, or I'll work on these dioramas at night. Or, you know, I wish that I had really honed in on what I knew I wanted to do sooner.

[00:40:09] Yeah. But do you think you had the opportunity or the space to actually do it at the time though?

[00:40:17] Um, probably not because I would've been doing it then. And and again, that's, that's why I ended up saying like okay, what is more important to me? Is it living in the city or is it making what I wanna make? And ultimately it was making artwork. So I was like: I can give up New York and be in a place that allows me to pursue that.

[00:40:42] Mm-hmm. And, uh, what's a challenge for you right now? What's something that you have to solve?

[00:40:50] I think it's the transition or the... I guess it's not a transition because I'm still working on the paper pieces, but like we were talking about, kind of moving into this other way of working that's with this very rigid steel and having ideas about very large outdoor sculptures that I wanna make and I can see them in my head and it's kind of, uh. I have some idea of structurally how to build them, and then I have to think about, oh, how am I gonna transport these? Are they gonna be mobile somehow? And then getting together the funding to actually see the project through.

[00:41:30] Yeah. Yeah. Bringing together the money, space. Yeah.

[00:41:37] Mm-hmm. So that's always a challenge. Like, I have a million ideas and I need to really always sift through them to see which ones are at least somewhat feasible. That, you know, whether it is feasibility of materials or space to put them or most often feasibility of funding the project.

[00:42:01] Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's always the balance, isn't it? What's a hard truth that you've had to learn as an artist?

[00:42:13] I think that I'm just not ever going to be able to make everything that I want to make. It's just this kind of...

[00:42:21] So your production is way behind your ideas?

[00:42:25] Exactly. Yeah. I think that's kind of... you know, your mind is sort of spiraling out of control with all of these things that you wanna be doing and I think there's just not enough time and resources to actually get through them. So I need to pick and choose and focus. Which is not, not always an easy thing to do.

[00:42:50] Once I'm in a project, I'm very, very focused on it, but getting to that space takes a little while.

[00:42:58] How do you usually work? Like most artists who are not in the installation field, they just go to their studio regularly and they work on something. Whether or not they're gonna show it or whether or not they know that they have an outlet for it. That's not always possible with installation art.

[00:43:18] How do you, how do you do that?

[00:43:20] That's true. I, I do work in the studio. I'm really lucky, I live upstairs from my studio, so it's easy. And I'll work on smaller pieces that almost feel like sketches for larger installations. Um, for example I've been incorporating chairs into a lot of my work, so I have, I kind of have big collections of stuff. I call myself an organized hoarder. Because I just really like to collect all of these pieces and every once in a while I'll be like, oh, this old broken chair is really amazing. Like, for example, right now on my wall, I have one hanging off of a board that is intended to be a sketch for a much larger piece.

[00:44:07] So I think that's one thing that I do in the studio. I'll also just make drawings sometimes. Or I'll work on smaller wall pieces that don't necessarily have a home, they're not a commission, they're just, you know, I just feel like I need to keep moving and keep like working through ideas 'cause I don't wanna drop the thread of what I'm doing. 'Cause I feel like it's really hard to stop for a while and try to pick up where you left off.

[00:44:37] Mm.

[00:44:38] So even if I'm doing very tiny things, when I was living in New York, I worked a lot in miniature because I didn't have the space to do it. But that's something that I go back to occasionally. I'm also gonna start building some models for the larger outdoor pieces. So it's kind of working toward these things just on a smaller scale or in a little bit of a different way.

[00:45:01] Yeah. Do you ever like outsource stuff, like to create 3D renderings or things like that to show it to people?

[00:45:10] I should!

[00:45:14] It's not easy!

[00:45:17] I'm not much of a computer person, so I do a lot of hand drawing. And I think it, in a way, I love the hand drawing 'cause it slows you down. You have to really think about what you're doing instead of just like: oh, I'm gonna click on this color and put it there. Yeah, I feel like it helps me work through a project in a way that a computer does not help me do. And I know that it looks really good to present these great rendered computer models. But I don't know, I feel like, oh, if I do that, when the real thing shows up, it might be disappointing or different than what they thought it might be, or I don't know. It, I think it's, it works great in some ways and would probably be really helpful to me to do that, especially when applying for grants or shows or something. But I've been relying on my sketches and photos of previous works.

[00:46:22] Do you have a highlight where something happened and it was like a particularly rewarding or elating experience in your career as an artist?

[00:46:35] I think one of the best things was having that large piece in my studio and it just really reaching an audience that was very different than an audience that comes to a museum or a gallery. And just people kind of walking in and having some sort of visceral reaction to the space. And sometimes it would be a good reaction and sometimes kind of a bad reaction. I had someone come in and just look around and say: oh, what an incredible waste of time! like, oh, well, at least they're thinking about it. You know, and I, I think it's kind of a really rewarding thing to have people come in who normally wouldn't experience that.

[00:47:24] And I also think when I was working in Italy, there are a lot of artists who, you know, we didn't all speak the same language, but kind of between this person's work and my work are just kinda like, oh, you know, I, I get it and they get what I'm doing. And how this sort of realization that you don't need to speak the same language, you don't need to come from the same place, but kind of, it, it's just a feeling about it that you're like, oh, I like this. You know, I like looking at this, it's kind of making my day, it's making me feel good. And I think that's a thing that in my large installations, it's interesting to see just people's reactions.

[00:48:07] And what would you like people to take away from experiencing your work?

[00:48:12] So I don't have a very particular narrative in my work. I really like people to come to it with an open mind and again, have that visceral reaction to it. And I love when the viewers kind of make up their own narrative. Like it will remind them of a place they had been, it will remind them, I don't know, of a story, or they'll make up their own story about it, or they'll do something that's kind of akin to cloud gazing where they see different things in it. So I really, yeah, I want people to bring their own narrative.

[00:48:50] Mm-hmm. If you could wave a magic wand and you didn't have any worries about resources, location, finances... what would be a dream project to make?

[00:49:05] Um, has to be just one? Right now I'm really interested in making these large scale outdoor sculptures that are reflective. And again, when they're illuminated, they show something that you don't see when it's not reflecting, so through flash photo. And I've been doing a bit of research about buildings that are now gone, I've been looking at one room schoolhouses in the area that I grew up in. And what I would love to do is recreate those in this reflective material but by day they look like a very just sculptural piece made of many lines and they don't reveal themselves until nighttime. So that's one of the large scale projects I'd really like to do.

[00:49:55] Sounds cool. I hope someone listening picks you up on that.

[00:50:01] That would be nice. I got it all planned.

[00:50:04] Yeah, I'm sure. I am sure. Yes. Yeah, those reflective works are very interesting. 'cause when I first saw them, of course I thought it was like LED light or something, and then I'm reading, I'm like, oh, that's... I like that.

[00:50:21] Is

[00:50:23] Thanks.

[00:50:23] Is it like one of those like reflector things? 'cause in Estonia reflectors are, you have to legally wear one in winter as a pedestrian. So they have all different kinds. You have like tote bags entirely made of that or you know like, sticky vinyl. What, is it like a paint or is it like

[00:50:44] yeah. It's, it's more, more like a vinyl, yeah. Like a vinyl that's applied to the metal. And I mean, I love that about Estonia. I didn't know that, i'm gonna have to look it up now.

[00:50:55] Yeah, they have all kinds of designs you can possibly think of for reflectors that you like stick on your coat or your bag or something. Yeah.

[00:51:04] Oh, that's awesome. All right. I have to, I have to check it out. Yeah. But it is the reflective vinyl and like the reason I'm pretty interested in those pieces right now is because the way everybody is constantly interacting with their device, their phone and taking photos of everything.

[00:51:23] And it's just kind of this, I don't know, I am like, well, let's, let's see what we can do with that. That's more interesting than just being on your phone. So the flash photos really, really make it pop. And I think it's kind of a way, like it's a reveal. It's something that like, it's always there, but unless you're looking in a specific way with a specific light, you don't see it.

[00:51:46] Mhm.

[00:51:46] Yeah, also like a great project to put along a road in the middle of nowhere where headlights driving by just reveal it and it's this ghostly thing suddenly.

[00:51:57] Yeah that's actually exactly where it is now. It's on a... just across the river in New York State. The chairs are there and it's by day, by night. By day it just looks like these sort of metal spikes in the middle of a field. And then again, at nighttime when car lights hit them, it reveals this sort of... like it almost feels like a dreamscape when you come upon it. Like you're not really sure what it is at first. And then they all reveal themselves and they're kind of levitating, moving. So that's exactly the idea.

[00:52:28] Yeah. Pretty genius. Is that a permanent installation or temporary?

[00:52:33] it's temporary ish. The, the landowners are. Very nice and said I can leave it there for an indefinite amount of time.

[00:52:44] Okay, so just tell me where exactly it is so people can go and check it out.

[00:52:49] sure. It's um by Cochecton Spirits and Cochecton Fire Station and it's 54 County Road 114 in Cochecton, New York.

[00:53:02] Okay, great.

[00:53:04] Do you have any advice you would give to an artist who's just starting in installation or wanting to get into doing that?

[00:53:15] I hope you have storage space because there's just so much stuff involved. I would say really though, like, kind of depending on what you're making, I always need to think about really simple things like does it fit out the door? Does it fit in the door of the space you're going to. Like really practical concerns like that because in the midst of making things, you can just forget about all of that and like, I made this amazing thing. Oh my gosh, now I need to cut it apart into six pieces to get it where it's going.

[00:53:51] Sounds like you're speaking from personal experience.

[00:53:57] Eh. But I think it's important to have a plan for you're moving the work, you're shipping the work. And I've been really lucky to work with the same people for many years now who like kind of understand the needs of the moving and how it should be handled and.

[00:54:20] That is so important and so rare.

[00:54:23] Yeah. Yes. You know, the other advice I think would be just to really, as much as you can focus on your own work. Like just keep making things. And it's not, you know, I, I always feel like I have these pieces and I'm like, Ooh, that's kind of an ugly duckling. That's not gonna see the light of day. But I needed to work through that to get to something that I liked. So it's not... you know, it's not all gonna be work that leaves the studio, you just need to keep going through the process. And you then kind of are, are following this thread that makes sense in your making. It's like, oh, I did that in that piece, so I'm not gonna do that again. And while it's fresh in your head to just move on to the next thing.

[00:55:12] Hmm. So you just received a grant. Congratulations, by the way!

[00:55:19] Thank you.

[00:55:20] So what are you working on now and do you have anything coming up in the near future?

[00:55:26] Well, right now I am focusing on studio work and trying to put together something to do possibly in Marfa, Texas with an old friend who would be working with me on a sound and performance element. So that's, it's all to be determined so far.

[00:55:50] Oh yeah. Actually, tell me more about the sound. You mentioned that sometimes your installations have sound in them. I didn't realize that. What sort of sounds, do you produce it yourself? What, yeah. Tell me more.

[00:56:03] So the sound in the pieces, if they do have sound, is really abstract. And it was created with Christopher through recording the making of the piece. When you roll the paper, it makes a really specific kind of swishing sound. And we distorted that and overlapped it and just created this sort of ambient noise within the, the piece because.

[00:56:34] It's really interesting how people react. Not only to that sound but even if there is not a sound element, there is like the very noticeable absence of sound. It almost becomes like an anechoic chamber if the piece is fully surrounding you. It feels completely muffled, a little like a recording studio. And that sort of was an unintended effect after I had built the first one. I was like, oh, this is interesting. So I, I wanted to add to that.

[00:57:05] I

[00:57:06] need some of that in here.

[00:57:07] I have some behind me. I hope it's working to make the sound okay.

[00:57:11] You sound great.

[00:57:14] Yeah. And then um, I've also made pieces that were large enough to have live music within them. And I would have performers, singers, songwriters, full bands play within them. And that... the audience would enter and everybody would sort of, without being told to kind of automatically be quiet because the space itself felt so quiet

[00:57:42] Interesting.

[00:57:44] Yeah. And it was kind of a great place to record the music. 'Cause nothing was bouncing anywhere.

[00:57:52] Yeah. Wow. That is so cool. Like an accidental side aspect of the work. It's kind of like those cavernous spaces you make are like cathedrals of silence or something. There's this tiny village in France called Taizé that has a monastery and they have this old Roman chapel. And it's like the chapel of silence, like the architecture of it somehow, I don't know how it's possible, but it's like almost oppressively quiet. Like it hurts your ears. The silence hurts your ears. It's so weird. And people go on pilgrimages there, and um it's fantastic.

[00:58:37] That sounds amazing. I know there's been some artists who have made pieces like that where you are in there and you hear your heartbeat. You feel like you hear your blood flowing or something because it's so quiet in there. But yeah, that was definitely an interesting effect that I didn't expect. And it also made me think about the work in another way that maybe has a more sort of interior architectural way of using it. Like I've tried making some panels with felt that may actually be used for ceilings. I installed a piece in a restaurant, all along their ceiling to quiet the space because it was bouncing everywhere.

[00:59:21] So it kind of works in that way too, it's both visually appealing, but also has that function.

[00:59:28] Yeah. A lot of restaurants need that. Yeah. That's very interesting that you kind of found this audio, multidisciplinary side of your work by accident almost.

[00:59:42] Yeah, it's kind of just added to the full sensory experience of the installations.

[00:59:48] Yeah. All you need now is scent. I recently met a scent artist and I'm like suddenly obsessed like, oh, how could I incorporate this my work? Hmm... Especially cause paper is absorbent, like it could it would work.

[01:00:08] Well when I am working on pieces, sometimes I'll be able to tell like if I have a book from someone who was a smoker.

[01:00:16] Mm-hmm.

[01:00:17] I can smell the cigarette smoke on the book. Or a lot of times people would walk in and say, oh, it, you know, it smells like an old bookstore or it smells like a library. So it kind of also inadvertently, very subtly has that aspect.

[01:00:32] Yeah. Cool. I love it when the work kind of creates these new aspects of its own accord, in a way.

[01:00:40] Yeah, it's sort of interesting, it kind of feeds itself. Like, oh, now you're doing this. Okay. I didn't even know. So it takes on a life of its own.

[01:00:50] Hmm. Well, Samuelle, where can people find out more about you, maybe buy some of your work?

[01:00:58] Sure. I am relatively active on Instagram, which is just my full name, Samuelle Green. You can also go to my website, which is samuellegreen.com, but don't expect me to update that very often, as again, I'm not a computer person. And I do have some work at the Holly Hunt Design stores and I'll be letting people know about any upcoming shows on Instagram.

[01:01:24] Mm-hmm. Okay great. Well, I will put the links to those in the show notes so people can easily find you and go follow you.

[01:01:31] Thank you.

[01:01:33] Thank you so much!

[01:01:34] All right. It was relatively painless.

[01:01:37] Glad to hear that.

[01:01:48] That was Samuelle Green, based in Honesdale, Philadelphia. You can find out more about her work on her website, samuellegreen.com and follow her on Instagram @SamuelleGreen.

[01:02:02] If you are in New York state and wanna experience her work in person, her newest installation by day by night is currently up at 54 County Road 114 in Cochecton, New York.

[01:02:16] Samuel is currently working with Ivy Brown Gallery in New York City, Bonham Gallery in Rushcutters Bay, Sydney, and she has some works available at Holly Hunt Design showrooms all across the United States.

[01:02:31] Links to those as well as everyone mentioned in this episode are in the show notes and on our website, installation art podcast.com.

[01:02:42] If you value these conversations, leave us a five star rating and a review wherever you're listening. It's the most effective way to help other people discover the show and it makes a real difference.

[01:02:56] Thank you for listening, and until next time.