Steve Palmer: It is lawyer talk. Three Things series coming at you with another Riveting. Three more things that you would want to know about something that I do. And why would you want to know three things about something that I do? And why would I want to tell you three things about something I would want to do? Well, because that's what I do. It is lawyer talk. I'm a lawyer and I'm talking. And this time about three things that you would want to know about a grand jury. I think the first thing is, what in the heck is a grand grand jury? You would think, well, that must be a really big jury or it must be really important because it's grand and it's huge. And you would also think that what's the opposite of a grand jury? Well, a petit jury. What the hell's a petit jury? Well, that's small and it's petite, maybe.

[0:00:39] Steve Palmer: So here's what this is. And honestly, if you don't understand this, don't worry. It wasn't obvious to me either when I first started in this game 28 years ago. So a pettit jury is usually the jury you would think about at a jury trial. So twelve folks and felonies here in Ohio, eight and misdemeanors here in Ohio have to decide whether the prosecutors prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of all twelve or all eight jurors. That's a pettit jury. A grand jury, though, that's a whole different beast. This is where the county in question will assemble a bunch of jurors, usually 25 plus. And it's their proceeding. It is the prosecutor's proceeding. And a grand jury's job is to vote whether there is enough evidence to indict somebody on a felony. What is enough evidence? Well, the old saying goes, you can indict a ham sandwich or you can indict a hole in the wall. The prosecutor has total control over this. They have the reins of a horse that will do pretty much whatever it wants.

[0:01:32] Steve Palmer: So if the prosecutor says, we want an indictment on this murder case, most of the time the grand jury will do it. Then there's times that the prosecutor doesn't want the grand jury to indict something. So I'm not going to say they intentionally tank it, but maybe they're going to present some of the good stuff. And this happens a lot in police officer cases where, you know, the, the county prosecutor would much rather have a grand jury no bill. It meaning we are not going to return a bill of indictment. They're going to vote no. And so they present the case in a way that incorporates some of the obvious defenses. So the grand jury determines there's not enough probable cause to believe a crime was committed. What is probable cause? Well, that means more cause than not. So maybe just a reasonable person would think that there is a crime that has been committed. So the first thing now you know, the first thing about a grand jury is what it is. It's not a trial by jury within a courtroom. It's a grand jury. It's done in secret at the behest of the prosecutor.

[0:02:26] Steve Palmer: So, number two, can I appear in front of the grand jury and testify in my own case? No, you cannot. So the second thing you want to know about grand juries is you don't get to go. Don't I have the right to go to the grand jury and testify? No, you don't. No chance. You don't get to go. You have no right. I don't want to say no chance, because sometimes, though, the prosecutors will invite defendants to testify. Delaware county locally here in Ohio, made it a practice of almost always inviting the defendant to provide testimony in front of the grand jury, but they wouldn't have a right to do it. So if you have a case and you want to testify in front of the grand jury, and maybe even your lawyer goes to the prosecutor and says, hey, look, I have a client, he wants to testify in front of the grand jury, the prosecutors say, all right, sorry, Charlie, no chance. It's my show, not yours. Not going to do it. So you do not have a right number. The second thing you need to know is you don't have a right to actually testify in front of a grand jury.

[0:03:18] Steve Palmer: Third, what if I get a subpoena to go and appear in front of a grand jury? What does that mean? The third thing you want to know about a grand jury is that you can actually be subpoenaed to testify in front of a grand jury. Grand juries have enormous power, particularly on the federal level. I'm dealing with subpoenas from, like, New York federal courts on other jurisdictions across the country. In this realm, it's gun rights. There's all sorts of or not gun rights, but gun regulations. The federal government is investigating everything having to do with guns. That's no secret. You've got a president who wants to crack down on guns. So what do they do? They get the DOJ Department of justice to start sending out subpoenas. What if you get one? Well, what you need to know is that you have a right to have a lawyer. Now, your lawyer, that is.

[0:04:04] Steve Palmer: I perhaps I don't get to appear with you in front of the grand jury. I don't get to actually go sit next to you. I don't get to to tell you what to say, but you have a right to an attorney, and now you're thinking, well, how the heck does that work? If I have a lawyer and he's not allowed to be in there, what do I do? Well, here's what happens. I sit outside the grand jury room door, and every question that's asked you as a witness can say, all right, Mr. Prosecutor, I want to go talk to my lawyer before I answer this question, and you have every right to do that. You're going to come out, you're going to talk to me, and the pro prosecutors will say, what a pain in the ass, you're dragging this out. And I say, yeah, sorry, that's how the process works. I have a client in there. My client has rights, and I'm going to advise my client of their rights. And you say, well, what are the rights? Well, here are the rights. You have a right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

[0:04:50] Steve Palmer: And you think, well, they've subpoenaed me. I have to be there. And when you hear these guys on TV saying, I hereby assert my Fifth Amendment, say in a congressional hearing, you get to do that at a grand jury hearing if your responses might tend to incriminate you. So what would happen is this. You're potentially a target of a crime. You get subpoenaed into the grand jury, maybe on a codefendant case, and you say to the prosecutor, well, if I testify, I'm going to be confessing to my own crime. So you go hire me, and I will give you something to read at every opportunity that you're asked. I hereby assert upon a vice counsel, I hereby assert my right to remain silent of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution. And in theory, the prosecutor can sit there and ask you questions all day long before they get the message, and they'll make you take the Fifth to every single one of them, and you're going to come out and talk to me every single time I've done it. It is nauseating. It takes forever. Usually what I would like to do is say all right, Mr. Ausa, assistant US. Attorney my clients taking the Fifth, are we going to go through this charade and make this person take the Fifth at every question? Sometimes they'll say, well, not every question deserves the Fifth or warrants the Fifth, so we're going to make them go through it.

[0:06:03] Steve Palmer: If there's a dispute about whether the Fifth is appropriate, we can even go down and have a hearing with a judge who often is available in the courtroom when we're doing it, or they'll convene to a hearing and then come back. So it can get sort of complex. So there you go. There you have it. Those are the three things you would want to know about grand juries right here from the lawyer's mouth at lawyer talk, off the record, on the air, at least until now.