255 - Katie -  This Is Me, But Why Is It Me_Damon: [00:00:00] It's happening.

Katie: How you doing?

Damon: I'm great, Katie. How are you?

Katie: I'm good.

Damon: Thanks for making an adjustment. This happened kind of fast. I'm sorry I had to reschedule. So it's good that you were able to make this work.

Katie: Yeah. That's okay. That's okay.

Damon: I appreciate you reaching back. Thank you.

Katie: Yeah, I'm glad we could reschedule.

Damon: Yeah, absolutely. Really cool. And you were connected to me by, um,

Katie: by jury. Yeah.

Damon: Yeah. So do you guys work together? Mm-hmm. I know she does a bunch of, uh, video stuff.

Katie: Yeah, yeah, she works. Um, so I work at Harbor Media in Hingham. So, um, she works closely with my boss, Michelle, and she is making like other shows, a plant-based cooking show based on like a grant program that we have.

So

Damon: Uhhuh. Gotcha. Really cool. Very good. Well, this is good. So have you always lived in Boston?

Katie: Yes, I've always lived in Boston. I live in Braintree.

Damon: Where is that?

Katie: It's, um, south of Boston, like 20, 30 minutes south of Boston. Okay. I don't know if you know [00:01:00] where the Southshore Plaza is, so that's

Damon: Mm, generally, yeah.

Yeah. All right. That's really cool. Yeah, it's very good. Well, I'm glad she connected us up and I'm glad that this is gonna work out.

Katie: Yeah. Do you have any

Damon: questions before we get started?

Katie: Um. No, I don't, I don't have any questions. This is just audio right, though.

Damon: Yeah, we're just gonna keep audio. Okay. So when this is done video, I will have the video, but I will only produce the audio so you don't have to worry about anything there.

Does that sound good? Okay.

Katie: Yeah. Do I sound great?

Damon: I, what's that?

Katie: Sorry, do I sound okay? I have a Yeti mic, so

Damon: Yeah. Yeah. You're in real good shape. I pre, I always love when someone has a, a good mic to uh, yeah. Uh, hold on for one second because I realize I can hear you great and I haven't actually set myself up properly,

so gimme one second.

Every once in a while I forget. Just set myself up.

Katie: Should I wear [00:02:00] headphones? 'cause I don't know if it like echoes.

Damon: There's no,

no echo

Damon: right now. Can you hear me? Beba ma'am.

Katie: Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah.

Damon: Alright, great. Does it sound any different to you? Any better?

Katie: Uh, yeah, it's a little bit clearer.

Damon: Yeah. Good.

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: I've got my mic right in front of me. It's like right off camera here and it wasn't plugged in.

Katie: Oh.

Damon: Imagine that.

Katie: Right?

Damon: Very good. Um, let me ask you quickly before we go in, are you familiar with the, um, with China stopping the adoption of interna international adoption of children recently?

Katie: Yes. Yes.

Gotcha. I was gonna mention that as well. I, okay, great. Yeah, I, um, good.

Damon: Good.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Damon: Alright, cool. Well then why don't we do this? Okay. Do me a favor and take me back to your early childhood. Tell me what your life was like in your family as an adopted person.

Katie: Um, like right when I was adopted, like. [00:03:00]

Damon: Yeah. Well, tell me where you grew up and tell me about what your life was like.

Like what was your life like as an adoptee in your family and your community?

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Braham, Massachusetts. Um, I was very, I feel like I've, I'm very grateful for growing up with, um, it is very middle class family. Mm-hmm. And I grew up in, um. A private high school. So I always felt like, I never like, I dunno, I feel like I was kind of distant per se about like other, like I never really saw a lot of like the Asian community when I was in private school.

Um, the only part of it I saw was like the international students. They had.

Damon: So folks who had come over from overseas to be at your [00:04:00] high school to attend? Yes. Not necessarily people in your community.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like Braintree is a very. White community. I know there's Quincy, Quincy is a very Asian community.

So I feel like as I was growing up, I always went to Quincy with their food and like all the Asian restaurants there, very good food. Um, so I felt like a little bit at home there. Better in Braintree than, than in Braintree. So

Damon: yeah. Tell me about your family structure. I. What is your parent, what are your parents' nationalities or ethnicities?

Katie: Yeah. So, and uh,

Damon: how'd you get along with them?

Katie: Right. So my, my, both my parents are white and I have an older brother. Um, he, he's not adopted. He's, um, from my biological mother from, and, um. There. Sorry, what was the other question?

Damon: The other question I was interested in is how you got along with everybody.

What was your [00:05:00] relationship like with your adoptive mother, your adoptive father, and your brother?

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. So growing up I feel like we had a really close relationship overall, and I, um. Right now, I also feel like that my brother and I we're a little bit distant just because we're older and we have our own lives.

Yeah. Um, but we still talk to each other, just not as much. Um, I kind of do miss like back in the day when we were kids, how we, like, we used to like play around with each other. He always annoyed me. Yeah. Um, so I kind of miss that, but I think that's just the part of growing up.

Yeah. Um, is he older than you?

Katie: He is, yes. Yeah. He's four years older, so.

Damon: And how did you get along with your adoptive mom and your adoptive dad? What were your relationships like?

Katie: So, uh, I think pretty good. Um, my dad, we always got along. Like he's very, he's a very neutral guy and I feel like with my [00:06:00] mom, we've had past arguments before growing up because, you know, I feel like it's also a mother-daughter relationship.

Yeah. How. You kind of butt heads. I think that's typical in any mother dollar relationship. But I also feel like I've been talking to my therapist about this, that it's also because I have a primal wound and she actually recommended me a book called The Primal Wound, and it's just about how being adopted.

You have this like instinctual prom wound from being abandoned from your birth mother.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: So I think as I grew older that I felt like I was kind of getting distant from my mother. I mean, we still get along, but it's just growing up we've had a lot of, you know, arguments.

Damon: Mm-hmm. So

Katie: I feel like are they,

Damon: are some of the arguments.

Because of that primal wound that you feel [00:07:00] a certain kind of way about yourself as an Asian, as a woman in America and, and that she's not able to identify with that wound that you're. That you live with?

Katie: Yeah, I think some of it has to do with that. Like going to the um, China adoption policy, how they changed it.

I mentioned it to her and she didn't really make it a big deal that I thought she would react differently, but she kind of just like put it off.

Damon: And What did you think she was gonna say?

Katie: I just thought she'd be like, oh my God. Like, that's crazy. Like, but she kind of was just like, oh, like, and I was like, you're not like shocked.

'cause I was shocked and she's like, well it doesn't really affect me. I'm like, yeah, but it affects me. So it, it's kind of hard to really portray like how she's feeling as well versus my feelings. 'cause they're both different. Um, [00:08:00] and I just feel like. That she just doesn't understand where I come from sometimes because of that trauma wound and how some certain stuff she doesn't relate to.

Damon: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What, when you talk about this cessation of Chinese adoption, so for anybody who's not aware, just at the beginning of September, 2024, China. Suddenly, and without explanation, stopped allowing the adoption of Chinese children into the United States. Given where we are politically, I could see that there could be a component of that.

However, it's also my understanding, and maybe, I don't know if you know this, Katie, that there's been a significant. Loss of the population to adoption. Right. That there are, [00:09:00] and maybe you can help clarify this, it's my understanding that the Chinese government favors boys. Mm-hmm. So many more girls are sent away, and now you've basically got a drain on the female population for younger generations.

Is, is that roughly correct? Tell me what you know about this. Or what your sense is, even if it's not sort of something you read. But here's what I, what my gut tells me. I'd love to hear your opinion.

Katie: Yeah, so I honestly don't know too much about it as well. There's not a lot of details that really was out there.

I looked at, I. I saw on Instagram I followed this account called Nanan Ang Project, or sorry if I pronounce it wrong, but it's like N-A-N-C-H-A-N-G, naan ch and um, it basically just said about how they're banning adoption and they're also banning from whatever families already went through that [00:10:00] adoption process.

And almost like. Are almost there to get their child. They like banned that as well. So I, I felt bad for the people that was already going through that adoption process and it just got banned and now they can't, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Katie: Right. And I, I also just don't, I, I think I remember seeing that, like, basically they're just saying, yeah, they don't have a lot of like, children like, um, population, non enough population.

Um, yeah, so, and you are right, there are mostly girls that are being adopted because most likely they, the families want the, the, the guys because of the, they wanna take their family name and like they're more respected. All kinds of like that.

Damon: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's an interesting dynamic and the [00:11:00] abruptness of the.

That cessation of international adoptions is, is an interesting moment in time. I'm curious, you said something that interested me. Katie, you said that this adoption ban, your adoptive mother said it doesn't affect her, but you said it does affect me. How did you mean that it does affect you?

Katie: Because I think for me, I feel like I still have.

I have some place there, you know, 'cause that's where you're born, that's where your family is, your biological family. And to me, when I hear anything related to adoption in China, I feel like that relates to me. 'cause I've been there, I've, I was there. And being, not being pulled away from your family, but being like, I do have a family there and I wish I could connect with them, kind of speaks to me.

And don't get me wrong, I love my [00:12:00] mother. I do. And like I, I think she's the best and she gives me the world, both my parents. Um, but I think it's just hard to understand the adoptive mothers to understand what your adoptive child's going through when you know they're thinking, oh, I have a family there. I wish I could connect with them.

Damon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a hard thing to. Imagine if you haven't lived in that place, right? If, if, and when I say that place, I mean that place of being an adopted person, right? It's a very, very unique lived experience to have been born in one family, on one family tree, and then picked up and transplanted over to another one.

And part of the uniqueness of your transplantation is not just family to family, but country to country around the world.

Culture

Damon: to culture as well, right? From Asian to a white family and a white community. It would be different. I would [00:13:00] imagine if you were adopted into a predominantly Asian community and an Asian family.

Mm-hmm. Your lived experience might be different. Am I right?

Katie: Yes.

Damon: Yeah. Correct. Yeah, because you know, I picked up on what you said about going to parts of Boston that have. Quite an Asian feel to 'em. Right. It sounds like that community has a predominantly Asian population. The food there, the culture has Asian elements that you can identify with, and when you look around, you see some of the mirroring that looks like yourself, right?

Mm-hmm.

Damon: Right. Yeah. What I would love to know a little bit more about, you said that you, um, well, actually, let me ask you this. Tell me a little bit about your interests as a kid. Right. Everybody, you know, parents, we have this expectation of what our child is going to be and do. I always joke that I grew up on old school, hip hop, soccer and lacrosse.

Mm-hmm. And I [00:14:00] thought that I was gonna have this mirror image in my son, and I got a totally different person who's completely unique and, and super special. I'm curious to know what kinds of things were you into as a kid? How were those things embraced, um, by your parents and family?

Katie: Yeah, so I grew up, you know, I.

My parents really wanted me to get out there sports, so I did a lot of soccer and a lot of softball. Um, I know my dad wanted me to play hockey, but I was like, no, that's too rough for me. Um, so I feel like I tried that. I tried sports, but I didn't, it wasn't for me.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: Um, I practiced piano, um, had piano lessons and a couple months later I was like to my mom, oh, I want to quit.

I don't like it. And she's like. No, you're good at it. You're gonna stay. So I'm like, I stayed and I'm glad she said that. 'cause I do like playing the piano. I don't play as much now, but I still love to play it.

Damon: That's awesome. Yeah. It's funny how [00:15:00] parents do that to us, right? They can see something in you that you can't see in yourself.

And so it's so easy to quit. It's a lot harder to sort of. Stay focused, get good and get to a point where you then can truly appreciate the skill you've developed. That's fascinating.

Katie: Right, right. Yeah. So I feel like my parents really brought me like different, like experiences of sports and music. Um, so I'm very grateful for that.

And when I was in college, actually my mother wanted me to do nursing, so I was like, yeah, I can try it out. And then. Um, after freshman year, I, I was one point off of my chemistry grade 'cause I, they didn't tell me that I had to get like a 76 and above to maintain in the program. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that.

And so I had to fight it and then they were like, no. So then I got, you know, kind of booted out and I majored. [00:16:00] Public health then. Mm-hmm. And then I was like, I don't like the school. So then I transferred to another school. Mm-hmm.

Gotcha.

Katie: But it's kind of like, okay, I should listen to my mom. And then I'm like, well, this was a bad experience, but I'm, I kind of was like, I mean, I could go into nursing, but I also just don't think that's for me.

Like you kind of just know that's not you.

Damon: Yeah. Yeah.

Katie: Um, so then when I transferred, I majored in health science just 'cause of the credits, and then I minored in digital media productions and psychology. Gotcha. So then that's when I fell in love with film. So I'm a full-time videographer now.

Damon: Oh, that's amazing.

I love that. I want to hear a little bit more about the videography, but as you were speaking, it occurred to me that you've now talked about living in. A white family in a white community with predominantly white students at your school, and it's, I would imagine that that continued into college as [00:17:00] well.

I'm curious how culture has been a part of your life, not just going and visiting this one Asian community, but in general, as you've traversed your life. It sounds like you're one of the only ones in the room. From time, you know, most of the time I, I'm just kind of curious how you've dealt with, uh, being an Asian woman in rooms that don't look like you.

Katie: Right, right. Yeah. Um, well, I could say that growing up my parents used to, um, have, so we were an adoption group, and so there are other adoptees and parents in the same group as my mother. So. We used to, when we were young, celebrate Chinese New Year together. Mm-hmm. Um, but then that kind of faded away, you know, me growing up and like kind of disconnected from everyone.

And then I kinda wish we stayed through that tradition 'cause I would love to stay in contact with other adoptee, [00:18:00] the adoption families and, um. I know I, I have a few that are, that I'm still connected with. Um, so my good friend Andrea, she, we reconnected because my mother was working in the same school as her adopted sister.

So we Oh, wow. Reconnected through that, like back in middle school. Um, so now we're still friends today, and her friend Katie is also adopted from China. So we're all adopted from China.

Oh, wow.

Katie: And, um, both Katie's sister and Andrea's sister also adopted from China. Um, so I'm really glad that I, I have them.

And then just recently, um. This year I put out there like, I'm adopted from China. I'm just trying to look for my birth parents. Um, this girl and Elise. She messaged me and she was like, I think we're in the same adoption group. And I talked to my mother and she was like, yeah, that's Aunt Lisa. I [00:19:00] was like, oh wow.

Like, it's crazy 'cause like I didn't think anyone else would like see my posts be like, oh, we're in the same adoption group. So, um, we reconnected. And then I also have another girl, Ruby, she is also in our adoption group, so we talk from time to time.

Damon: Mm-hmm. That's really cool.

Katie: Yeah. I really how

Damon: to be connected to other people who have your unique shared experience of being your all girls.

As far as the names that I picked up on, all girls adopted from China at the same time, what is that like to have this group of this community around you?

Katie: Yeah, I'm really glad that I have them. I feel like we all experienced the same experiences and just bonded over the same similarities. We, that we went through.

And, um, I just think it's, it's such a great thing to have because like you're, you know, you're not alone.

Damon: Mm-hmm.

Katie: So I'm really thankful that I have them.

Damon: Yeah. [00:20:00] Can you tell me about if and how you discuss among yourselves. Your roots in China, your desire to find biological family, the chances that you might never do so, or that you might get lucky, like how do you all discuss those kinds of things?

Katie: Yeah, we don't really discuss it in great detail. I think we just more connect on like we're adopted, like we should like, you know, get to know each other more. And um, I think. W we all said that we wanted to go back to China and try to like, you know, look around, experience it all. 'cause I haven't been, since I was adopted and none of them haven't been since they were adopted.

So for Annise, Annise went back actually to the, um, social welfare that we were at, and they were very, um, they weren't very strict. So like they, she got to see her foster mother.

Damon: Really?

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: Wow.

Katie: Yeah, and she, her foster mother remembered her and I was like, wow, that is [00:21:00] crazy. Wow. Yeah.

Damon: That's unbelievable.

What did you think about when you heard her story of at least making that kind of connection?

Katie: Yeah, that just made me wanna go back even more, so.

Damon: Mm-hmm.

Katie: I think we're gonna try to plan, like going back in a year or two

Damon: and together.

Katie: Together. Yeah.

Damon: Yeah. That'll be really nice for you all to go back and support one another.

Because there's gonna, it's an emotional journey and having somebody that can relate and be there next to you is gonna be really valuable.

Katie: Exactly. And then, um, I mentioned that to everyone that I wanna, since I'm a filmmaker, I wanna do a documentary about all of our stories. And just to go back, I'm not sure what the rules are there 'cause I know they're strict government, um, to just film there and like make a whole documentary about our adoption stories,

that would be amazing.

That'd be really,

Damon: really interesting. Wow. What is your, I, I don't know much about the Chinese [00:22:00] adoption engine and the ways through which people can connect back. Are there, um, I guess what I'm thinking about is, you know, in the United States you've got 23 and me and Ancestry, DNA, super easy. But I don't know enough about the openness or closedness of the Chinese government and whether they allow that kind of genetic.

Reconnection is that, is that a tool that is available to Chinese adoptees?

Katie: Yes, it is. So I've been following the ONG project and they said on their website that they accept blood samples or saliva, DNA, and that they ship it to China. Mm-hmm. And put it in their system. And I've heard they've gotten a lot of matches because it's in the Chinese government system.

So

Damon: is that right? Allows that kind of connectivity to their, their information,

Katie: yeah. Yeah. So they have, I [00:23:00] forget what it's called, but they have a whole system that allows adoptees to bring in their DNA and to find families that are there for a match.

Damon: And is that something you intend to do?

Katie: I do. Yeah. I actually sent the website link to my parents the other day.

I was like, I think this is something I should do. And I told them like, they have had a lot of matches. And my mother was like, that would be unbelievable. Like, and my dad was like, well, yeah, you should do it. So I really, they're supported. Yeah, they are.

Damon: That's really great.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Damon: Really amazing. I'm, I'm wondering about your feeling though.

It's my understanding. That in Asian cultures bloodline heritage genetics are extremely important, right? Yes. That you as a part of a bloodline are holding onto an entire family history and that a person like yourself

mm-hmm.

Damon: Can be seen as being outside of the bloodline. I'm wondering how you're [00:24:00] feeling about.

Anyone's receptivity to being found, located, what have you, what do you think about in terms of, you know, sort of Asian heritage being so focused on purity, for lack of better words.

Katie: Right, right. Yeah, I, so for one, it reminds me of, so I don't know if you have seen this documentary, but it's called the One Child Nation.

Damon: I've heard of it. I haven't seen it.

Katie: Yeah. It's a really good documentary about, um, the adoption in China. And it really spoke to me because it, a lot of it spoke details about, you know, girls being drowned in the river or girls just being abandoned or so sold off to some other families. Like it, it really like.

Makes me realize the reality of it all and how they just didn't want girls and how they think boys are, it, that's like, that's their main thing. They want [00:25:00] that because of the family. They keep the family name. They're, you know, and it, for me, I just think that's, that's, I don't know, that's just not great.

It's not, I dunno how to put words into it because I, it's kind of hard to put words in it. Um,

Damon: let me ask you from a different perspective. You are here in America as a woman, right? You are a videographer. You basically have your own business. You have you, you have rights that I would imagine perhaps you a person might not have in other parts of the world.

I don't know about China, but it would seem to me that a society that undervalues women. And is what sounds like shipping them away and as you've said, um, relieving themselves of having women, too many women around. It doesn't sound like you would be very appreciated [00:26:00] in society, but you live in America where you are appreciated.

As a woman who is creative and is growing a business and has rights among other things, what does it make you think of when you think about. The potential of having grown up in, in that society.

Katie: Oh, okay. Yeah, I, I did think about this and. I am truly grateful for things that had happened to me growing up and growing here in America.

And like, I even like asked this to my adoptee friends. Like, I wonder if, like, what if your parent got me instead of like, you know, this a little switcheroo action. Mm-hmm. And it, it's just crazy how the outcomes come, how like everything works. Um. And I just think that if I was there in growing, growing up in China, I don't think I would love it there.

I don't think I would be happy with my life. Mm-hmm. [00:27:00] And that's just a whole hypothetical, but like, I just think the whole government there is crazy and it's just like very strict and

mm-hmm.

Katie: I don't think I would like. I would visit there, but I don't think I would live there.

Damon: Yeah, I understand. I understand.

It's really fascinating. Wow. Mm-hmm. What's your hope for finding folks through any level of genetic testing or search when you go back? I.

Katie: Yeah, I, um, I actually put my DNA also in GED match in 23. And me, I haven't gotten any results, but I hope that I can find either a family member or my parents in the future.

Um, I just hope, like, you know, I can connect with someone that knows my past and just really like, figure out, okay, who am I? Like family wise. Like, it, it's, it's such a weird thing to like [00:28:00] explain how you're feeling as an adoptee. Um, 'cause I think a lot of people think they're alone, but they're really not.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: So I think that, you know, being adoptee doesn't mean you're alone and the experiences you go through, like a lot of people have similar stories. Yeah, and I'm really glad that you, you know, portray all these stories through your podcast.

Damon: Thank you. No, it's, this is my pleasure. I've, I have come to realize, I've probably crossed paths with way more adopted people than I've ever realized, right?

Mm-hmm. I was at an event recently and. It was an adoption related event. So I knew the person I was speaking with was also an adoptee. But I said, I gotta tell you, if you and I were at some industry event, and this was work related, adoption might never come up. Right? And you and I might never know that we have this in common.

And I, I, it's just fascinating to think of [00:29:00] the number of adoptees that are out there. One. Whom we come in contact with. Two who are comfortable enough to speak openly about their adoption because three, there are probably a, a great many who are not ready to talk about their adoption that is triggering and challenging.

And I'm, I'm always, I frequently think about the juxtaposition of people like you, Katie, who are openly coming on to speak about this. But then the number of people out there who will never, ever step forward to speak with me or anybody else because they just don't want to talk about it. Yeah. So it's kind of fascinating.

Katie: Yeah. I think for me that I, I. I think this year actually, 'cause I got a new therapist and she is also adopted and she works strictly well. She works a lot with adoptees and I think she really is helping me out trying to figure out like the past and what I feel. And you know, I [00:30:00] never really talked about my adoption story and how I felt.

I felt like it didn't really define me, but it actually does. And I think that's the realization I needed this year. That, you know, being adopted isn't bad. It's not a bad thing. It's just something you just really have to explore and what you like wanna learn about yourself.

Damon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I'm, I'm really glad you raised your therapist because I heard you mention it before and I was gonna ask you if you had found an adoption competent therapist, and it sounds like you did because you're adopt cop because your therapist is adopted as well, right?

Mm-hmm.

Damon: And so you got a new one, was the previous one not adoption competent and not an adoptee?

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I've had, um, I think she is my third therapist. The last two weren't, um, adopted really, like they don't work with adoptees and I'm really glad I found her. I found her online and. It really helped me a lot, [00:31:00] you know, trying to relate, like, I, I didn't really think that that's, you know, the root of my problem problems, but it was most, most likely like, this is your past.

This is how you know, you, like how you are, so.

Damon: Mm-hmm. Can you articulate a little bit more what the difference is between just having a therapist and having one that is actually adoption competent? You've ac you've experienced this now, and I'm just wondering if you could, mm-hmm. Share a word or two about just how it feels different to speak with one versus the other.

Katie: Yeah. I feel like. The past therapist I had, they really didn't go into asking questions about my past, how it relates to my adoption story. And I feel like they just didn't go into detail of like, okay, so this is one thing. This maybe could be like, oh, this is why you did this, or like, this is how you're feeling because of this, and, but with my therapist now, she is like, okay, so well.

What if you know something about your mother, it could relate to things in the [00:32:00] past. Like she just asks certain questions that I've never been asked before and like challenges me. Mm-hmm. So I think that's a really good thing. You need to find a therapist that challenges you and asks you like difficult questions.

'cause that's what you're in therapy for. And I feel like my past experiences, they never really challenged me.

Damon: Oh, that's really interesting. Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's part of what you need is for someone to dig deep. And they're supposed to have the skillset to do that. You shouldn't have to go in there and dig yourself and pull it out for them.

They should be part of

exactly the process

Damon: of helping you pull it out. Mm-hmm. That's really fascinating, huh? Um, God, I had another question for you and I completely forgot what it was. Shoot, I got so interested in the adoption competent therapists. Oh, I know what it was. I wanted to ask you also, you, I think you used the words.

At this time in my life, you were talking about the need for [00:33:00] therapy. What, what's happening for you that, that now is a moment that necessitates an adoption competent therapist to be a support for you?

Katie: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I, I think it's because I'm getting older. You know, I, my birth is actually coming soon.

It's on the 28th. Um. And I feel like, you know, you're in, almost in your mid twenties and I'm still living with my parents and you know, you're just trying to figure out what you wanna do in life, what like you wanna explore and like also just exploring your past of, okay, this is me, but like, why is it me?

You know? Mm-hmm.

Katie: Just trying to figure out. What you wanna do. And I know I'm not alone too. I, I know everyone, not everyone, but like, a lot of people are in their mid twenties, they're like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just going with it.

Yeah. Um,

Katie: so I think also last year I graduated college.

So I think after, you know, when you graduate [00:34:00] college, it's kind of like, okay, what am I doing?

Damon: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. It's, it's an existential moment for you, right? Mm-hmm. You're at this. You're on the road of life and you've now reached a bit of a, not even a crossroad, it's sort of a, you've got multiple paths you could take and you're just trying to figure out which way to go and, and being informed on your adoption is, uh, is an important part of that, it sounds like.

Katie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I also wanted to speak upon, you know, I mentioned my birthday and um, I don't know if my birthday is my real birthday because they kind of just, you know, okay, this is where we found you. I was, you know, dropped off on my. You know, adoption slip. It said Google translated that an elderly man saw me on Theto foot, uh, on the stairs of the Social Welfare Institute of Chaga Chaga County.

And it was about like, you know, two hours away from Nan Chong, where I'm from. Mm-hmm. And they found me on September [00:35:00] 29th. So then they put on my birthday September 28th. So

Damon: right. Right. And you could have been one day old or 10 days old. Or a month old.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I was adopted 15 months. So that's what they, I think, guessed.

I'm not sure.

Damon: Yeah, it's a guess.

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: How does that hit you to not to realize with fair certainty that your birthday's not actually your birthday?

Katie: Um, you know, I think I just grew up to accept that, um, you know. I, I never really thought about it and I also just didn't think, oh, oh, let me actually, sorry. I want to mention this about how I found out I was adopted.

Mm. Um,

Katie: and it was when I was in first grade and I was sitting at, you know, in the cafeteria eating lunch [00:36:00] and one of the girls was like, just said to me. Um, your mother's not your real mother. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, you're adopted. I'm like, what does that even mean? I didn't know what the word adoption meant.

Wow. And so

Katie: when I came home, I guess I don't really fully remember this, but my mom said I was brushing my teeth in the bathroom and she was like doing something. And I was like, mom, what does adoption mean? And she was like, what? And she was, I was like, well, you know, this girl said that. I'm. Adopted and you're not my real mom, what does it mean?

And at that moment, mom, my mom's like, oh God. Like I have to tell her. Like, so she told me and I was, I, I didn't know how to feel 'cause I was young, so I just was like, okay. I was kind of com just confused. And I also, you know, I was young so she, I didn't really, you know, Asian white parents. I didn't connect that.

Damon: Yeah. So it's so funny, Katie, I normally would ask a [00:37:00] person. What the adoption was like and how it was discussed and, but I think in the back of my mind, I took for granted what you were saying to me that you grew up in a predominantly white community and a white family. So it was just natural that you knew this.

But it's fascinating to hear that there was a time when it wasn't connected for you and that your parents hadn't discussed it with you at all.

Yeah,

Damon: I don't. And there was this discovery moment of wait, what? There not my real mom. What does that mean? That's, that's wild.

Katie: Yeah. And I think it was just a shocking moment that I kind of, you know, didn't really put it in my brain or memorize, uh, sorry, I didn't really.

Remember it. Um, so I think it was just a weird thing for me.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: And I think afterwards I was like, okay. And then just moved on.

Damon: [00:38:00] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially at a young age like that, you know, we're not mature enough to rarely rec really recognize mm-hmm. What's being said to us. Right. You don't have enough experience to recognize the gravity of what has been revealed.

And

Damon: so of course it wouldn't necessarily stick as a deep memory, but now as you reflect on it, especially at this time in your life, I'm sure you, you recognize how pivotal that moment was.

Mm-hmm.

Damon: Or what it represents really fascinating. Let me ask you about, you know, one of the things that adoptees think about a lot is our own genetics.

Right when we're going to eventually be with somebody and create a family, like you don't necessarily know what your genes have in them. What do you, what kinds of things come to mind for you in terms of your future and creating family? Well. [00:39:00]

Katie: Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind actually was, um, when I heard about, you know, China banning adoption, I told my dad, I was like, well, what if like, I grew up and I can't have kids?

Like, what if I wanted to adopt a girl from China? And he was shocked. 'cause like, he didn't think I was thinking about that, but I'm like, of course I'm thinking about it like, like relating to adoption and like. You know, I'm a woman and usually women like love to think about the future and like, you know, different sort of, sort of what ifs.

Yeah. Um, so like I just, I wish I had, you know, that, you know, family, DNA of like, okay, what if I have this disease or, you know, this type of thing. And it, it does, you know, kind of suck that I don't have that. And I think there are DNA like. DNA packets that you can do to like find out what like, you know, certain health related thing [00:40:00] you have.

But I don't, I don't know if I could do that. 'cause I think you need certain information about it as well.

Damon: It's my understanding that 23 and me is far more medically focused. Mm-hmm. And genetics focused. And ancestry, DNA is more. This is the footprint of your DNA across the global migration, right? It's more history is my understanding.

That's how I think of it. Right? And I wonder then if 23 and Me is an option for you. Now, the challenge we have with genetic databases is they're only as good as the samples they have in 'em, right? Mm-hmm. So if you were to do a 23 and Me style test in China. You would have much, much better results because you would be in a Chinese population of folks who had submitted a sample versus here in the United States and you know, whatever the global population is that's represented, the Chinese population is going to be [00:41:00] dramatically lower in their sample size.

And so you're gonna, you're results, while they could be somewhat accurate, will be skewed because you're just not in the same population. So, but it seems like it would be. Worth doing to at least get some level of gen, like there's some gen generic stuff that's just human based, right? Mm-hmm. Your propensity for certain diseases and other things, and, and it might be worth it for you to do that to at least alleviate some of those, you know, concerns and satisfy some curiosities,

Katie: right?

Yeah, so I actually did 23 and me here, but it didn't really, I didn't get the results, you know, of like. If I have, you know, first family, um

mm-hmm.

Katie: And I did that 23 and me DNA, you can get that data and put it to a GED match is called Yeah.

GED match. I've been in there too. Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. And um, and I didn't get any results as well.

It's also kind of difficult [00:42:00] website to figure it out, you know, you have to like look at, it's

Damon: super nerdy. Yeah. It's really data driven. It like you gotta be data wonk too. Really dig into it, so I'm with you. Yeah. Right.

Katie: So that's why I like how the Naan Chang project, um, has that ability to like send in your DNA or your blood sample to that Chinese government.

Yeah. Because like there's more matches there than here.

Damon: That's amazing. Wow. Really cool. Anything we didn't get to Katie?

Katie: Um, I. Can I just share a little bit, bit about, you know, um, my adoption process, like my mother's, and then a little bit like my adoption name?

Damon: Yeah. Tell me about this transition of you from China to the United States.

Did your parents fly over there to retrieve you? Tell me a little bit about your, your adoption process as you know it.

Katie: Yeah, so my [00:43:00] mom, it took like about. Two years that my mother had to go through, or my parents had to go through the adoption process. It's a lot of documents, a lot of, you know, checking out the house.

And she, once she got approved and all that, she flew with my grandmother who sadly passed in 2008. And, um, they went to get me and my. Brother and my dad stayed here because my parents were scared that if they were both on a plane together, you know, there could be a plane crash. Yeah. So that's why my grandmother and my mom went to get me.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: Together. And they stayed at the, um, I have it here. Sorry. You,

um. I think it's okay. Yeah. So they stayed at [00:44:00] the Guango in the White Swan Hotel and that hotel it was mostly, you know, a lot of adoptee parents, adopted parents, um, stayed there and that's where most of my, you know, adoption group family stayed.

Damon: Oh, interesting.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so they were

Damon: hosting families there.

They had set up a process. That makes sense.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's how, so my mother, she contacted, um, it's no longer there now, but it, it's called China Adoption of Love through that, um, process. It's an adoption agency. And, um, so that how she, you know, first started to go through that process and when.

My mom came, she adopted me on December 7th, 2001.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: And I have that, um, adoption date on my ribcage. I got a tattooed in Roman numerals. [00:45:00]

Is it really? That's really cool.

Katie: I did, yeah. And it's funny because my mom hates tattoos, actually hates them. And when I told her like I wanted to get that, she was like, okay, fine.

And so. My dad actually went to get my adoption papers to make sure that was the date because they didn't want, you know, the wrong date.

Damon: Right.

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: That's really awesome. She, it's so funny to hear that she hates a tattoo, but because that one was so incredibly meaningful to you both, she was like, all right, fine.

Right, right. That's funny.

Katie: Um, and I later found out when I, when I was looking through my Dian papers that my Chinese name is, and it, when I was, uh, taking a Mandarin class in college, I. Um, I, we had to like give her our own Chinese names and that was like, I told her, I was like, can I do my actual Chinese name?

She's like, yeah. And when I told it to her to um, when I told her my Chinese name, she was like, that's a rare name. 'cause [00:46:00] it's like two in one, I guess it's like very rare to have two names in, you know, a full name.

Damon: Interesting. Mm-hmm. I don't. Forgive me, I wanna just make sure I understand what you're saying.

It's the difference between being named Mary and being named Mary Jo that gets two names together. Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah.

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: Interesting. Wow. And that doesn't happen in Chinese culture much?

Katie: I guess not. No. And um, she translated it to like, it means poem and, um, you know, superiority. So, I guess it's a rare last name because it relates to like some higher, higher up in like a province or some town, you know?

Damon: So you have a full name. But that's interesting. So these documents, if you were left on a doorstep, I. [00:47:00] Don't imagine that you were left with a note that said this child's full name is. So, it sounds like you were given that name through the foster care system. Is that right?

Katie: Yes. Yes. The um, the Chaga County Social Welfare Institute, uh, gave me that name.

Damon: Interesting.

Katie: Mm-hmm.

Damon: So you basically. Still don't have any clue as to what your actual name could have been. This is a name that is a foster name.

Katie: Yep. No. Wow. Wow. I don't know. I know. I'm like very s well, not surprised, but like, I'm kind of like, just wondering why, you know, whoever put me at that doorstep didn't leave a note or anything.

Damon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But if, let's imagine this though, if they left a note. That could identify you back to them somehow. Right? If they had put a note with your name on it and that was like an actual name that was given [00:48:00] to you by the family, you would be identified back to the family,

right?

Damon: And that wasn't the goal by leaving you on a foot on a doorstep, right?

So,

Katie: mm-hmm.

Damon: Really, really interesting. Wow.

Katie: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.

Damon: What did your mother tell you about why she wanted to adopt? You said she already had a son. What was her reason for adopting?

Katie: She said she just always wanted a baby girl from China.

Hmm.

Katie: So, I mean, I get that reasoning, but I also like, I was like, okay, is there more Like why from China?

Damon: I was wondering the same.

Katie: Yeah.

Damon: Yeah.

Katie: And it feels

Damon: like an ideal in her head.

Katie: Yeah. I. I think maybe just 'cause, you know, the population there and how it was back then that she was like, okay, I, I, I should, I want to adopt a girl from China.

Damon: Well, she also, you know, so being older than yourself would have more information about what it would be like to be [00:49:00] raised as a woman in China.

And she, I'm, I don't wanna put thoughts or feelings into her, but as a. Older woman than yourself who perhaps was more informed about China than even, than you were. Mm-hmm. She may have said, I would like to make sure at least one of those girls does not meet the demise that that government has in store for her.

Right. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Really fascinating. Wow. Mm-hmm. Very interesting. Anything else you wanted to share about that?

Katie: Um. I think that's it. I'm just looking through my notes.

I know how that goes. Um,

Katie: oh, one other thing I wanna share is that I. Put myself into a lot of, you know, Facebook groups that, you know, deal with trying to search for your biological parents, Uhhuh.

So I'm like in like probably 15 or 20 of them [00:50:00] and I posted like a bunch, like every one of them saying, Hey, this is where I'm from, you know, this is where I'm adopted. This is the date. Like, I'm just trying to look for anything connected to my past and my biological family.

Damon: Yeah. I'm glad you raised that because in the United States you've probably heard there's a lot of search angels who have great access to a lot of information here.

But I'm wondering, what is the quote unquote search angel network like for a Chinese search and reunion attempt? Are there a lot of folks doing that, or, yeah.

Katie: I, I, um, I haven't gone to it, but I remember one woman sent me a name to like, she helps with other adopted parents find, you know, their adoptee, um, biological family.

And I think I should, I. Just keep searching on the internet, on Facebook. Um, and then also put my, you know, DNA out into that [00:51:00] Chinese system.

Mm-hmm.

Katie: And I think it's just a difficult process because I have really no first steps to go to. 'cause I have nothing, there's no information about my biological parents, anything to do with them.

So it's kind of difficult.

Damon: Yeah. For international adoptees, especially those who have governments that are very closed and challenging to deal with. I'm always really sensitive to that search process because for as much hope as you have that it will have some success. The obstacles are immense. Mm-hmm.

And so I absolutely wish you the best, best, best of luck, Katie. This is, it's gonna be an interesting road, but I, I would love to hear back from you another time after you've made this trip to China. Yes. Because I had these visions as you were speaking of trying to find that orphanage where you were placed on the steps, you know, and trying to find some of the, like the, the hotel [00:52:00] that your parents may have.

Your mom may have stayed at with your grandmother and just, you know, hitting some of those milestones that are pieces of your story, even if they may not create the entire mosaic of who you are as a person. Right,

Katie: right. Yeah. And I really hope that doesn't affect from, you know, the ban on from China, um, uh, oh my God, sorry, the ban on adoption in China.

I really hope that doesn't affect my, you know, future travels of going to that orphanage. 'cause I've heard some of the orphanages are banning like, you know, other adoptees coming to like see them and, yeah.

Really? Mm-hmm. Wow. Really, really interesting. Well, Katie, thank you so much for being

Damon: here, sharing your story.

This is really, yeah.

Katie: Thank you so much for having me.

Damon: Of course. My pleasure. And like I said, I look forward to having you back another day so you can tell me a little bit about this. Eventual pilgrimage to China to learn more [00:53:00] about yourself and your heritage. Okay.

Katie: Yes, I would love that. Thank you.

Damon: Take care.

I'll talk to you later. Bye-bye.

Katie: Thanks. Bye.

Damon: That was great. How you feel?

Katie: I'm great. Yeah.

Damon: Good. I'm glad to hear.