Stephen McGee, welcome to the QVC podcast. I'm

really excited for this conversation.

Me too, Meredith. We've had a few touch ins

before, so it's really cool to be here with you.

Thank you. And a little thank you to our mutual

godfather, Peter Bort. He's always sweet,

sprinkling lovely people into my life. Thanks,

Peter. All right, so let's start with your story

and how you came to be where you are, which is as

a leadership coach and a coach to highly

successful people. You've led people up mountains

and down rapids and spoken on stages, but you

started out in a much more traditional role in

life in a corporate environment. How did you get.

How did that journey unfold to where you are now?

Well, we'll do this short version, Meredith. If

you want to dive deeper into any of the specifics

of it, we can do that. But like a lot of us

listening, I grew up with meager beginnings. My

mother reared four kids on her own, and she, you

know, was going out trying to make a living. So

sometimes she was waiting tables at night. You

know, we were living off of whatever tips she had

as a cocktail waitress, etc. So we didn't have

much. So there was, you know, to begin with, the.

Just the mindset I had had some limitations in

it. Like, I don't know how anyone ever could do

this or that or this or that based on the mindset

I had, because there was just a lot of things we

couldn't afford due to the limited resources. So

I mentioned that to you because it put into my

heart and mind that, oh, I just think money would

solve all my problems as a young man. So I

started to. I made it through school. That's a

longer story. I did get a degree in business

administration in finance. And somehow, some way,

I think, because I interviewed. Well, fast

forward through college to my first job in the

financial services and banking industry. And I

spent many years climbing the corporate ladder.

And at some point, maybe I'm four to five years

in this corporate climbing of the ladder, I get

asked to be on what we call the succession plan

at a large financial services organization

underneath Nations Bank. And so I was learning a

lot about leadership, but I was also learning a

lot about how people operated in the boardroom,

how people meaning how the operations went, how

the conversations went, how the communications

went. And there was so much of it that I didn't

like. Like, it felt like we were out of integrity

and that we were doing things to just get the

deal. In the midst of all that, Meredith, I Was

doing a lot of entertaining to get the deal

because money costs are all the same. For those

of you that understand a little bit about

financial services, investment banking industry,

you know, the money cost is the same. So how do

you really get a deal? You get a deal because

you're really good at business development or

getting clients through entertainment. So I did a

lot of traveling. I was really good at the game

of politics in corporate America. I ate out

almost every night. There was a lot of alcohol

involved and a high degree of stress. I remember

one night in particular, Meredith, where I was

trying to go to sleep at night and my body was

just pouring sweat from the stress, like I was

soaking my sheep. I would wake up like at 2am and

I couldn't go back to sleep and my body was

inflamed and I was way out of touch with nature,

which I know we're going to talk about later. I

was. My circadian rhythm was way out of whack. My

body was way out of whack. So long story short, I

end up sick with a blood clot in my left arm and

it was about 9 to 10 inches long. And I was so

afraid of what was happening with the swelling

and it was blue and all of that that I just

avoided it, I ignored it until one night we were

sitting at dinner with my family and my sister in

law said, you, you really should get that

checked. And so it scared me enough that night

that I went straight to the emergency room at

Swedish Medical center in Denver, Colorado. And

within a few minutes they've determined that I've

got this blood clot. And I don't know, Meredith,

how much you know about blood clots, but they're

painful, but they can be very dangerous because

it breaks off and it can travel to a major organ

and they can kill you. So I ended up in intensive

care and I was in intensive care for eight days,

which is like a lot of things in life. It was

horrific and a blessing all in the same breath.

One of the blessings was I survived, you know,

that I actually lived through it. Eight days in

intensive care means, you know, we're really.

Yeah, especially when you just walked in after

dinner.

Especially.

Hey, thought I'd get this checked out. Eight days

in intensive care later. Wow, that's good you

went in.

It's really good. I went in for many reasons. But

the real linchpin for me wasn't about me. It was

about a man who had come in from a motorcycle

accident. He was in intensive care in a bed next

to me. And if you've ever been in intensive care,

in most hospitals, you're separated not by a

room, but by a. By a curtain. So I'm again awake

in the middle of the night, and I can hear this

man who I don't know, but I can hear his pain. I

can hear his suffering. But most impactful was I

heard his breathing start to slow down. And

eventually he took his last breath. And I heard

it. I heard the sigh. It's almost as if I could

feel his spirit leaving his body. And it was. You

know, eventually, you know, everyone comes

running in, and they try to resuscitate, but they

don't. The man passes. And in that moment,

Meredith, I made a decision. So many decisions

about my life. And the rest of the story

continues from there. But in that moment, I was

like, I am not freaking doing what I've been

doing. I am not wasting one precious moment of

this beautiful thing called life doing anything

that I don't really believe in or that I really.

That I don't really want to be doing. So I don't

believe in obligation. I believe in commitments.

And that's the short version, Meredith. I don't

want it to be just talking straight through our

time, because I know you have a lot of questions

and a lot to insert into this, but that's the

basic start of my work, of my moving into the

world of leadership advisement, which I've been

doing now for 30 years.

Wow. It's interesting to me because, you know, a

lot of people could have that experience but not

have that outcome. Do you feel that you were

primed for that in some way or working toward it?

I.

And then when the moment arrived, it was, like,

open.

I mean, I knew I couldn't. And maybe your

listeners can appreciate this. When we are on a

path. When I am on a path that I know I can't

sustain, I know that there's something I want or

must change. But sometimes I wait until I get

thrown down the stairs to get the message.

Can you hear me? I can relate.

Everyone out there ought to be raising their hand

right now.

Hands up.

Hopefully we get wise. Hopefully we get some

wisdom along the way to go. No. These are signs

that I'm off track. I'm off journey. I'm off

path. My soul isn't happy. Physically,

emotionally, mentally. I'm out of whack, and I

want to do something about that. So, no, at that

time in my life, I wouldn't have. That was like

being. That was like being thrown down 20

staircases in eight days. And it woke me up. It

had me be aware of what I was doing.

Wow. And when you work with people, because I

think there's also this idea that sometimes in

order to wake up, we have to make all of these

drastic changes in our lives. I know you work now

as a coach to people who work, you know, in the

corporate world or in the. In the financial

world, and they like. It kind of works for them.

And I just want to talk about the idea of being

attuned to what does or doesn't work for you, for

you. Like you were saying you could tell that the

life you were living was not aligned, it was not

working. How do you open it up for people to

understand if there's some periphery changes that

need to be made or if they're truly on the wrong

path? Because I guess what I'm getting at is I

think sometimes we have this idea like, oh, if I

want to grow spiritually, I can't be in the

corporate world or I can't have this type of job.

And I'm not sure that that's true, but it is true

that it has to be working for you. What are your

thoughts?

Well, it's such a beautiful, beautiful question.

And the last thing I would want to convey today

is that the corporate world is wrong for

everyone. There are some company cultures that

are flat out toxic. And in those toxic cultures,

you know, people have to make their individual,

unique choices about how they navigate all of

that. There are some people that were. That

really thrive in the job I was doing. You know,

they really would throw. I wasn't built for it.

So I think the key is know thyself. Like, you

really want to know who you are, and you. You

really want to pay attention to the signs and the

symptoms. I think sometimes, and with my clients,

they might have an overwhelm or they might, you

know, be feeling like they're eating out too much

or they're away from their family too much or

whatever the case might be. Those can be small,

incremental and nuanced adjustments where a

person has to be able to set clear boundaries

with the culture, with their direct reports, with

the chairman of the board or whatever it is. And

that's where I come in and really support people

in saying, speak your truth in leadership. That's

everything. Because integrity in leadership is so

highly important to being effective that if a

person is lying to themselves, they're probably

lying to other people. So this is where these. It

can be. To answer your question more

specifically, it might be small Adjustments that

support a person in thriving in an environment

because they set some clear boundaries about. I'm

not going to every. Entertaining dinner every

night and drinking four drinks. You know, I'm

just not. That's not for me at this time in my

life. And I'm setting clear boundaries.

Yeah, yeah, that really makes sense. And I think,

yeah, absolutely. Because I think sometimes we

get the idea and then it's like, okay, well I'm,

you know, especially let's say if you're a

practitioner or you think, okay, well, I have to

own my own business. But again, not everyone is

built to own a business. Sometimes, you know, I

think it's fine to be an employee or to work, to

work for someone else. And it's like being able

to. Yeah. Suss out what is going to work for me

versus what I think I'm supposed to be doing

based on what I've somehow been influenced to

think.

Yeah, I think people can find fulfillment in a

lot of different ways. I think a person just has

to be aligned with themselves in such a way that

they're living into some form of their truth so

that they're not wearing themselves out day in

and day out, because that's just not sustainable.

And it's not result oriented either. I mean, you

can argue that it doesn't feel good, but the

greater argument is when people don't have

discretionary energy, creative generative energy

in their world, they typically don't feel that

fulfilled. So a lot of this is, as I said

earlier, it's sustained, nuanced changes where a

person let's, let's look at one specific example.

Like people have. I've been in organizations

where there's three minute response time. It's

not a mandate, but it's like three minute

response time on email is what's common. So

instead of working on your project, you're

working on responding to an email because you're

in the thread, but it isn't productive. So those

are changes that can be made extrinsically that

help a person to be more settled intrinsically.

Right. I love what you just said. Discretionary

energy. That is a good phrase. Say more about

that. Because so many of us come into like the

health and healing space due to energy deficits.

And I know for myself I, I spend my energy like,

like a credit card in overdraft. So I'm really

interested. I'm interested. I love this idea of

discretionary energy. Say more about that.

Well, I mean, it's. Imagine it's an overflow.

Like you're filled up. You know, on a quantum

biology level, you know, your, your, your cells

are charged, right. And you've got some room when

that happens, to live fully and to stay well,

like, immunity's up, cognitive functions up, all

those kinds of things are jamming. So

discretionary energy, when I speak about it in

leadership, it's like your workforce is doing

what they need to do, but even more because they

want to. And this is when we are fully alive.

It's like when you can. When you can be in the

presence of someone that's that filled up, it's

like a joyful encounter because they're not

holding back. And unfortunately, in a lot of

organizations, people are just doing as little as

they possibly can to get by because they're just

trying to get to the weekend. You know, they

start on Monday and they talk about the weekend,

and then they get to Wednesday and they're

talking about what they're going to do the next

weekend instead of really feeling fulfilled and

generating through creativity in their work,

whatever the work is. And it doesn't need to be

fancy work. It can be any kind of thing where a

person's like, I'm going to give this my all

today, because they can, because they want to.

They're willing to, but they also. They know that

they can.

Right? Yeah. And I think this is one of the

reasons that I was really excited to do this

interview, because we can get all of our inputs

correct, so to speak, and optimize our circadian

rhythms and eat well and do our outdoor time and

go for walks. But if the way that we've

structured our life is taking our energy or not

in alignment with who we are, we're still. Still

fighting the flow in some, so to speak. Like, I

don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you can hear

what I'm trying to ask better than I can ask it,

but it's like there are pieces beyond, you know,

beyond just setting everything up to be healthy.

There are pieces in terms of how we make

decisions, how we live our lives, like what you

were just saying, that are still going to put us

in that energy deficit, are still going to work

against our intrinsic ability to be healthy if we

don't understand how to look at those things as

well.

Yeah. So I've listened to your podcast a number

of times. I love the ones I've listened to your

guests really resonate with me. I'm learning so

much from you, Meredith, and from your guests.

But one thing I think we all agree on and how I

say it is what's normal isn't normal. So we think

it's normal to wake up tired. We think it's

normal to barely get through the day. We think

it's normal for these maladies. And I don't need

to list them because you've got plenty of guests

that can list more of them than I could. But, you

know, just obesity, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune

problems are not normal at the level that we're

seeing them. And you've had lots of podcasts

where people state the stats, you know, on that

stuff. So I go, first thing we got to do is wake

up and go, what I'm experiencing as exhaustion

isn't normal. And that my body can realign with

the proper principles and protocols of quantum

biology. And it's so powerful. And I would say,

Meredith, nobody's exempt from that. So if

there's someone out there going, yeah, but you

don't know how hard I've tried, and you don't

know how sick I really am. I would say believing

is seeing. And we live in a world that makes that

really hard because we live in a world that is

seeing is believing. So if seeing is believing,

you look, you watch the commercials and you start

to believe that, what, a pill from a

pharmaceutical company with 15 really bad side

effects is better to take because you've got

eczema or something like that. And so these

things are not normal. And I think it's time for

all of us as leaders to stand up and say,

bullshit, this is not normal. We do not need to

live this way as a collective. And we can come

together in alignment and support a movement, if

you will, for well being. And I feel just very

strongly about that as a leadership advisor,

because people with big visions cannot accomplish

those great visions without that discretionary

energy. It's just not going to happen. It's not

possible. They have all the best willpowers.

Overrated. Can you hear that when I say that? How

do you hear that, Meredith? Willpower's

overrated. The whole world's about willpower.

Force it, make it happen, go on YouTube. But that

kind of motivational stuff is just not right, at

least in my heart, because at some point I did

willpower before I ended up in intensive care.

That's where willpower, all willpower all the

time got you.

Eventually it will get most of us in a bad

situation.

Yeah.

Even if it's a bad relationship, right?

Yeah. No, I'm right there with you on the

willpower, because it's, it's finite. It's a

Finite resource, I found. So if it's the only

thing I have, it's. If it's the only tool I have

to do what I'm supposed to be doing or to do

what's good for me or best for me, sooner or

later it's going to fail. Like I need more tools

in the toolkit. And especially because we were

saying earlier about getting thrown down the

stairs, right. It's like sometimes I, you know,

I'm motivated by pain. The pain goes away, my

motivation goes away, you know, and that, that

willpower to get out of the pain is not enough to

create a sustainable life where I don't keep

ending up in that pain, whether it's emotional

pain through a relationship or physical pain,

because I, you know, I'm not doing the things

that I need to do to keep my body healthy. There

has to be some other. Yeah, some other blueprint,

some other driving force besides the willpower.

Yeah. So then, so then the effective question

becomes what is that driving force? Force.

What is it? What is it, Stephen?

Well, I think the most important attribute to

great leadership is different than what a lot of

people would say. I think the greatest attribute

to great leadership. And we'll talk in a moment

about what does leadership even mean? But it's

listening. And I don't just mean that I can have

an ability to listen to you, Meredith, and hear

what you say based on the content or the con, but

the context of what you share, like that's hugely

important. But the listening I'm talking about is

how good are you as a leader, Meredith, or any

practitioner listening? Or myself, Stephen McGee?

How good am I at listening to myself? How good am

I at listening to for those of us that are

spiritual, how good am I at listening to source?

How good am I at listening to spirit? How good am

I at listening to the wisdom of what I know is

true for me, even though people outside of me

think it should be different or I should be doing

it differently. And that's a self referential

skill that I've worked on my entire life because

I didn't grow up that way. I grew up trying to

please people and make other people happy to my

own demise. So I think that's one of the keys to

this great question that we're, that we're

pondering together.

Wow. Yes. So, yes, because if a person is able to

listen to their inner truth, let's say, and act

on that, it would feel to me like that makes them

a leader, irrespective of what their situation in

life is whether they have a job title that

implies that or not. But that ability to live

from that kind of truth, like just naturally puts

you in a leadership position. Would you say?

Well, I would say that that is really close to

aligned with what I would say. I would say that,

first of all, yeah, job title means nothing. Job

title, whether I'm a doctor or I'm not a doctor,

or I'm a CEO or I'm a mid level manager, or I'm

an administrator, administrative, or I'm a mom or

I'm a stay at home dad, leadership is not about a

tunnel in overarching simplicity. Leadership, by

definition is the positive influence of another.

So if I can positively influence another in my

way of being as a leader, it has nothing to do

with title. And so I have had in the past clients

and some now who I'm like, hey, dude, sis, lead

up. Like you think you're stuck and that you

can't positively influence upward in the

organization or sideways in the organization or

down in the organization. It's nothing to do with

title and everything to do with willingness to be

a leader. So for all of our listeners, it's like,

if you have technology skills, scientific

information, principles and protocols that can

serve this planet and you are not sharing them, I

would challenge you today to say it doesn't

matter your title, and I would say go for it,

because you will find, I will find. We will all

find discretionary energy when we share. Sharing

is a key to leadership. So how do you hear all

that, Meredith? How does that line up?

I love that. I love that. Because as I was saying

to you before we came on, what I really hope,

what I really wanted for people to hear was that,

yeah, you're, if you're like, involved in health

and wellness, if you're listening to this

podcast, if you know what quantum biology is, you

have really important information. And I feel

like sometimes people get caught like, oh, well,

I'm not as smart as that, that guest, or I don't

know as much as that person or I don't know. And

I wanted, you know, I really wanted you to come

on because I want people to hear from a, in the

strongest possible terms that, that what you have

to offer matters.

Absolutely. And you are a piece of the puzzle.

You matter. I love what you just said, Meredith,

because I think sometimes people can take

themselves out of the game and it's like, get off

the sidelines and get in the game. You might not

be the quarterback of the. Sorry for the sports

metaphor, but you might not Be the team captain.

But what you offer is unique, and it's not

complete until you offer it. Even if you're. I

mean, this is the funniest thing. Like, I've seen

this in organizations for years. Like, the quiet

ones, when I go in, they're the first ones I'm

asking questions to. You want to know why?

Because they're great observers, and they see all

kinds of shit other people don't see. And they

can speak it so clearly, but they don't get

asked. So you may never get asked, as you might

be going, yeah, I'm that person. I'm the one

observing. I'm the one that can see things. But

then I say, okay, it's incumbent upon you to

build that muscle of sharing, to build that

muscle of speaking your truth clearly and

succinctly and powerfully. You will be heard.

Because a lot of people just run around the

flower pot speaking. They don't often say

anything. So we all have. We all have a gift to

share. And. And one of the things I would hope

would come from our being together today,

Meredith, or the magic of you and me doing this

together, would be that someone out there would

get sparked into the trueness of who they are and

start leading. But leading doesn't mean telling.

See, people think it means telling. Another great

skill in leadership isn't telling. It's asking. I

spend most of my day asking questions. This is

more talking than I normally do in any given hour

because you having me as a guest and you're

asking me questions, but normally I'm asking

questions. And questions can also be a great form

of leadership.

And then what do you do? What's next? What else?

Listen. So again, most people are listening for

what I call agreement. So there might even be

guests out there right now listening for

agreement. It's fine. It's not a judgment. Like,

what do I think about Steven saying, is he true?

Is it accurate? Is it 100% my experience? Well,

no, it's never going to be. But I say, why would

you listen for agreement when you could listen

for alignment? Like, what do we really have in

common as a collective? Speaking of quantum

biology, what a beautiful name, the Quantum

Biology Collective. Because we're going to have

different opinions on different things,

especially in this field of quantum biology,

because it's emerging. But there's also a lot of

things we can all agree on that we can align on.

And that's where we're powerful. We're powerful

when we're aligned. And one of the. I'm not going

political here. But I'm just gonna say that one

of the biggest problems we see in corporations,

one of the biggest problems we see in our

country, one of the biggest problems we see in

the world is people are listening for agreement.

And when they listen for agreement, they hear

something they don't believe in, and now they're

ready to fight. And when they're ready to fight,

we've created resistance. And when we've created

resistance, there's no coming together. Mother

Teresa said it best. She said, I am not against

war. I am for peace. That's nuanced leadership.

So people out there, like, against things, like

being against Western medicine is one example.

I'm not against Western medicine. I'm for

functional medicine based in quantum biology. And

that's what I would speak to if I ever had enough

knowledge to do it. I know enough to be dangerous

on that topic. But because of your guests that

I've learned it, I want them to hear that I've

applied stuff from what Peter shared with me, who

I adore as a leader. Peter's a great leader

because he's a great listener. Would you agree?

I would agree. Yeah.

But he's also, when you ask him, hey, what are

the 10 things you do to build your energy system?

Well, he can go there. He can go there. And he's

helped me apply it. So those are all examples of

what our topic is today. Leadership.

Yeah. And I'm really interested in this idea of

listening for agreement because it's something. I

wasn't thinking of it in those terms, but I think

it's kind of similar that I was thinking about

recently. It's sort of like the operating system

under whatever it is, whatever else is going on.

So I can have. You gave a great example of not

being against Western medicine, being for

something else. And so would. Wouldn't an example

of, like, listening for agreement be. I'm

listening to, say, a podcast or an interview or

some, you know, person in the media talk about

something to do with health and wellness. And I'm

like. And I'm like, yep, they're correct. Yep,

that's correct. Oh, they don't know about this.

I'm not listening to them anymore. Or, oh, they

said that. But I don't think that that's right.

So I'm not right. And we kind of. I was thinking

of it as, like, almost like a purity test. Right.

They're like, oh. And so we sort of push that

person aside or push everything that they said to

one side and put them in a bucket. Of, like, I

don't. I don't need to pay attention to that

person because they didn't tick all my boxes. Is

that, like, the kind of thing you're talking

about? And, like, when we come in through that

lane, that we're. We're missing out. We're not.

There are things. There is a different way we

could be listening to get value from that person,

even if we disagree on a few things.

For sure. Meredith, I mean, you've summarized it

beautifully. It's like you're. You're shooting

yourself in the head. So why not have an attitude

where I'm going to listen for what I'm aligned

with, and I'm just going to leave the rest

behind? Now, I don't know about you, but my

favorite three words these days are I don't know.

But those were not words I used 20 years ago.

Very often. Like, I just. 30 years ago, I knew

everything. 20 years ago, I started to realize I

didn't know that much, but I thought I knew

certain things were irrefutable. Now I don't know

anything. And you know why? Because now I'm open

to the possibility that I could be wrong. And

when I'm open to that possibility that I could be

wrong, I can hear things and I learn more and I

can apply more. So I think it's a very

interesting time to be having this conversation

because there's just so much divisiveness in all

kinds of areas. You know, it's not just

politically, it's the world at large is kind of

in an argument.

Yes. Yeah. No. And what made me think of that,

and this is, like, a really nice framework for

approaching it differently, is that there was. I

was on Twitter, and there was this. Some

activists who are doing work around getting

toxins out of food, and they were. And very much

focused on processed food and improving the food

supply. And then there were some other people on

Twitter who are like, it's all about light.

You're so stupid that you're not even covering

the light story. You don't even know what you're

talking about. I just thought, oh, gosh, right.

I'm not sure that's really helping where we want

to go. I mean, there was someone doing great work

in an area that needs. That needs it. And that

lens, like, that was just, like, listening for

hard agreement. And I just feel like there's so

much change that's about to happen that could be

happening. Like, and you're giving me a really

nice framework for thinking about that. So it's

like listening for the alignment. Where are we

aligned?

Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. I think we're in a

very interesting time on the planet where we're

going to start to see a more positive shift

through leadership in that direction. And that's

why I'm banging my sharing drum today about

leadership. Thirty years of being in the field,

the leadership space, and it's increasing.

There's oftentimes a breakdown before a

breakthrough. So let's hope that we're starting

to move for the breakthrough, you know, for the

positive solutions for a greater good for the

entire planet.

And I want to get into the shifts that are

happening. I want to get into that a little bit

more, actually. So I'm glad you raised it. But

before we do that, I just. What are some other

misconceptions or myths that you feel that people

have about the idea of leadership?

Oh, my God. We need four or five more hours. But

I think the biggest. I'm going to simplify

something complicated. So I know this, that I. I

want you all to know I'm oversimplifying

something complicated, but I think there's still

value in what I. What I would share here, which

is the first law of leadership is take care of

yourself. Breathe that in, like, let that camp in

your heart and your body. Let it fill your cells.

Take care of yourself. The biggest misnomer of

leadership is that you give yourself away all day

long, and eventually there's nothing left to

give. And then we have a leader that's not living

through discretionary energy. We have a leader

that's sick, and we have a leader that has a

great vision and maybe great wisdom and skills,

but they're not able to offer it. So take care of

yourself so that you can serve others. And so I

work with a lot of people in that way. They can't

see it. You know, I have blind spots in my life.

I don't know if you do, Meredith, but I have

blind spots, and I can't see them as their blind

spots. So the reflection of coaching. You're a

great coach. You coach people. By coaching

people, you can reflect back what they may not

see themselves. And so I believe in guiding and

advising and coaching for that reason, because

often nobody tells the leader what they can't see.

Right.

So I know that's over broad, but is that kind of

helpful?

Absolutely. And that could be. I mean, you were

almost like describing a lot of moms when. In

that. In the way that you explained it. You know,

it's like. Or even just Parents or caregivers in

general, you know, I gotta give and give and give

and give and give until I drop. Or, you know,

people in the helping professions prioritizing

clients over self care over and over and over.

Because that feels like that, that what we think

it means to serve. But you're saying something

really different.

Yeah, I think what you're bringing up with

practitioners and moms, I've never been a mom,

but I, but I watched and I know my own mom was

that way, you know, so I think that's a really

good example. And I also think it's another great

example of doctors who care so much about their

patients, they forget about the themselves. But

we all know it's just, it's, it's just like

anything. I don't want to walk into a doctor's

office and look at somebody that's ill, that's

giving me advice about my own wellness. I, I,

that's not believable to me. That's not authentic

to me. So I think if, if you're one of those

people, it's like, what would I need to do to

come into balance? How could I shift my practice

in such a way that I can take care of myself and

serve people more fully? And I've heard some of

your guests talk about new business models that

can support that and it's brilliant. That's what

is changing in that area. But through leadership,

anything is possible in those ways. Like, we're

just all going to have to get out of our comfort

zone and start looking at solutions that we

didn't think of last year.

Right. Okay. So listening, listening for

alignment over listening for agreement, taking

care of ourselves as a form of leadership, that

is really powerful. Right. Because I think so

many of us struggle with that idea. It's like,

well, if I'm going to take care of myself, that's

not selfish. Exactly. Or, but certainly to the

side of my leadership responsibilities. And yeah,

it's really powerful for you to say no. That's

not, that's not the right way around.

Well, you just said the most important, you said

the most important word in the, in our language

for leadership. And that is the word no. And I

say to my clients, clear boundaries are not

barriers to the heart. So people think that

saying no is a bad thing in some way. But again,

I said earlier, obligations are overrated. You

know, we're seeing this online now. Overrated,

underrated. Have you seen some of these old

thermodynamics Is underrated. Overrated. And then

the specialist goes on and Says about why, like,

it's fun. I love it. But saying no is underrated.

Taking care of self is underrated.

Right. Okay. What are some other ways for us to

think about leadership that we're probably not

doing?

The power of leadership is far reaching. So

you're leading us in the, in this podcast. Thank

you for doing the podcast because you have guests

that come on. It takes energy, time. Yeah. You

know, yada, yada, yada, to prepare, to get there

and to put it out. Here's the thing about

leadership. When it's coming from a clear

intention of service, leadership is far reaching.

You will have no idea, Meredith, who will listen

to this, who will then take something from it and

go share it with their family or go share it with

their patient, or go share it with a stranger on

the street, or share it at Thanksgiving dinner or

a holiday dinner. It's far reaching. Who's going

to share this podcast with five of their friends?

Because there's two or three things in it that

are valuable. So do not underestimate your power

as a leader as you share as you come into the

alignment of what we're talking about here today.

You know, it's just, it's evolution. Leadership

is an evolution that we have, that we have a

shared opportunity in together. There's. There's

an opportunity for us to share, and that's more

powerful than we think.

Right, right. And you were, you were saying

earlier about cultivating the ability to trust

yourself and trust your inner knowing and trust

guidance from source. And I saw in some of your

writing you talked about personal sovereignty and

its relationship to leadership. How do you

support people to cultivate that, especially, you

know, in this world? Like, we think a lot of

things are true that most people don't think are

true, you know, and it's based on research and

understanding. And so we've come to it like, in

a. In a real organic way. And it's real and true

for us, but it does take a certain degree of, you

know, that ability to cultivate that personal

sovereignty. And it can be, I don't know, tricky,

lonely. How do you support people to get okay

living their lives that way when a lot of the

time we're expected to capitulate to the more

dominant voices or what everyone else thinks,

what everyone.

Else says, yeah, boy, this is one that comes out

of the memory bank. But I think it's it. It will

be the most efficient answer to your great

question. Let's see what you think. But many of

your listeners have listened to, I recommend if

they haven't read the book A Man's Search for

Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Brilliant, brilliant

book and well known mainstream book that has a

lot of wisdom in it. The piece of wisdom in it

that I would speak to today is the distance from

stimulus to response. So why would I mention that

today? Because most people don't have any

distance from a trigger, an activation. They get

blamed for something. There's stimulus, and then

we immediately respond based on familiar

patterns. Can you hear that? Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Okay. So the practice of illumination, of great

leadership, of better listening, of all the

things we've talked about today, is to put a gap

and a distance between stimulus and response. So

I'm going to ask you a personal question. When

you feel activated, like you're, you're, you're.

You might be, someone says something to you,

like, Meredith, you're just dumb. And, and. Or

whatever the situation is, where do you feel it

in your body when you're activated or when you

react?

Probably most often in my, in my gut. Like, like,

like seizes up. Like your. Your stomach drops.

Like that feeling.

Yeah. Okay, good. Mine starts in the gut, moves

up to the solar plexus, and eventually I still, I

can feel my head starting to get heated. Like,

I'm moving to that.

Yeah.

So that is a beautiful thing. If you can be. If

you as a listener today to the podcast, you can

get familiar with where you're activated. It's a

sign. To do what? Slow down. Create a distance

between stimulus and response. You don't have to

send the email or the text right now. You don't

have to even reply. You could even say, listen,

I'm a little. That pissed me off. I need a few

minutes. So we'll start to retrain the brain.

Truly, we have the science. I haven't heard as

much from your podcast. Maybe it's somewhere in

the archives. But neuroplasticity is a real

thing. We can retrain it, but we have to give it

room to rewire. We have to move in the direction

of what we prefer. Earlier, I said familiar

patterning. So I don't want my familiar patterns

running my life, subconsciously or otherwise. So

somewhere in there, I got to get the gap. And in

the gap, I take a breath. And in that breath, I

make a new choice and I stay sovereign. And if I

can stay sovereign, then I can be whole. And if I

can be whole, I can respond more fully from a

place of alignment instead of reaction and start

a fight that now explodes and goes down the

rabbit hole. Into a whole host of cascading

problems. So oftentimes, pausing is good. And

that's what Viktor Frankl brought to us in that

book, A Man's Search for Meaning. I mean, he did

it for. He did it more than a moment. He did it

for days and weeks and months and I think years

on end. But he turned to the most horrific

extrinsic situation in Auschwitz in a

concentration camp, being vilified and attacked

and treated horribly with very little food and

sickness all around him, watching his friends

perish. He turned even that into a sovereign

situation. So that's an extreme example, I hope,

for most people listening. I mean, it's extreme,

but. So that's the practice, though, and your

willingness to practice is the key, starting

today. It's a simple thing. Small things done

consistently make major impact. There's a quote.

It's not mine. I don't know who said it, but I

use it all day, every day. Little things make

major changes. So those are kind of my thoughts

on personal sovereignty.

Yeah, that's really deep that I hadn't ever

thought of it that way. The ability to create the

space that you need to stay in your own

experience without causing a reaction, a chain

reaction, but also without denying your own

experience.

Yeah, you're not, you're not shoving your

feelings.

Yeah.

You're not stuffing it. You're pausing. And in

that pause, you might even ask the question,

what's the best solution here? So again, that,

that, that kind of brings in the thing I was

talking earlier about asking, like you can ask

yourself generative questions. Albert Einstein

was famous for that. He didn't ask a lot of

people because he was too smart for most people.

He asked himself, how can I find a solution to

this? What's the way forward with this? And then

give those things room to incubate. Give those

questions that pause, that space between stimulus

and response time for a new solution rather than

an old familiar one that has an automatic

reoccurring dialogue to it. I know I'm throwing

out some leadership language today, but automatic

reoccurring dialogue is something everyone can

relate to. It's because we've said the same thing

so many times. It's a pattern. Doesn't mean it's

the right thing to say again. So it gives us room

for that source for the spirit to come in as

well. Like if it. For those of us listening to

believe in something like that. Like, all day

long when I'm working with people, I will pause

and say, give me a minute. And then I Listen, and

then I respond. And sometimes my response is, I

don't know.

Right. But I would. I would imagine that

generates trust. Right. Like, if you are willing

to tell me when you don't know, then when you

tell me what you think to be true, I'm more

likely to believe you.

It would for me. It would for me if someone just

said, I'll get back to you, or I don't know. It

would for me.

Yeah, right. These are just. Yeah. I keep using

the word powerful, but it really is, I think, to

integrate these approaches into our lives.

Because as I was saying before, like, there are

so many layers and levels, and there's, you know,

healing our physical selves and healing our

trauma. But then there's like, okay, now we're.

Now we're ready to live life. Now we're ready to,

as you say, get in the game. So now, what are

the. Now what are the tools and strategies I need

to cultivate an identity as a leader in the game

and not as a sick person or not as a struggling

person or a traumatized person or. Or this or

that. It's like I'm a sovereign person now.

Ready. Ready to engage with the world.

Yeah. Yeah. And Meredith, I would say, again,

I'll simplify a more complicated topic, but I

think your listeners can walk away with the idea

that in leadership, maybe identity is less

important. What my identity is, is less important

than who am I being in this moment. Like, we're

so caught up in doing. And believe me, actions

are important. We all. We all know that. But

that. That gets back to will, that gets back to

force. That gets back to. I know, I know I need

to take action on the physical level to make good

things happen. But what most people don't take

into account is who would you need to be to make

that happen? Who would you need to be in your

next patient, in your next meeting with a

patient, when a patient walks in? Who would you

need to be to heal that person? Who would you

need to be? Who would I need to be to get an idea

or a vision across to a chairman who can't

currently see that the current vision is causing

problems and cascading problems? Who would I need

to be? And I would say that a thousand times,

because who you would need to be is known through

this space of listening. It's known in the

sovereignty of your soul. Who you need to be can

happen in a holy instant. It can happen right

now. So it's not a lot of work. So people go,

well, I need to work on being a leader, I go, no,

you don't. You need to be a leader right now, be

a better listener. Starting today at home with

your child. What would that do in your life? It

would give you. It would give momentum and

velocity to the trajectory of your leadership.

Can you hear that?

Yes.

It's simple, but it's so powerful. I'll be doing

a keynote in January on the power of deep

listening at a conference in Arizona, and I can't

wait to do it, because so much of what I'm going

to talk about is presence pays. You know, we live

in a world where. And I'm not knocking

professional sports. I love sports. You know,

people getting paid millions of dollars a game to

throw a ball. Great. Love that. But what if one

day we get paid through who we're being as a

doctor, as a practitioner, as a leader? Presence

pays. I think we're going to see that one day.

And that's a hope and a dream on my part. Like,

but I feel it in my bones because I'm surrounding

myself with more and more people that get what

you get that. Get that this is a. This is that

what seems so intangible is actually real, that

it actually matters who we're being.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is. There's the

question, who do I need to be in order to, you

know, fill in the blank? I love it. I love it.

Okay. So you mentioned a little earlier, and I.

This is where I kind of wanted to end about, sort

of. We've been talking a lot about personal going

deep inside and how to move forward in an

effective way in the world. What do you see

happening on a wider level in terms of. And even

just, I don't know what words you use to

articulate it. Shifts in consciousness, planetary

changes. I leave it open to you, but I would

love. I know that you pay attention, and I would

love to know what you see, what you're seeing,

and where. Where you feel that we are.

I'm going to share a quick contextual story. I'll

make it very brief. And when we were in 2020 and

I knew that Covid was coming, I did what's called

Gestalt therapy, and I did it with COVID And for

those of us that don't know what gestalt is, it's

simply. You find an aspect inside of yourself. It

could be sadness. It could even be a pain you

have. It could be thoughts you have. And you take

that aspect outside of you and you have a

conversation with it. So Covid wasn't Something I

had at the time, but it was something I wanted to

talk to. I wanted to find out, why is Covid here?

So I had a conversation as if Covid could talk.

And I literally went from my chair to Covid's

chair. And I learned a lot from COVID Like, what

could I learn from COVID being here on the

planet? And so that's an example of where I think

we're heading. Where we're heading is there will

be continued challenges. But these challenges

that we are facing as a humanity are not

challenges that we cannot overcome. Does that

mean it'll be easy? No. Does it mean that we'll

be able to do things the way we always have?

Here's the answer. No, it won't. It will mean we

need to think at a higher level of consciousness,

a more service oriented level of consciousness to

find the solution. So the answer in leadership is

use everything that occurs in your day, in your

life, in your business, in your relationships,

for your advancement. Use everything that occurs

for your advancement. It's like, why is this in

our world? So that we can adjust, so that we can

evolve, so that we can come together in alignment

and find solutions we can't currently see. To do

that, we have to be in relationship with the

planet. We have to be in relationship with the,

with nature. We have to be in relationship with

ourselves before we can be in relationship with

other people. So some people are moving in a

different direction. They're moving into fear,

they're moving into againstness, they're moving

into separation from nature, from other people

that don't agree with them. This is not the

direction for the solution. That's the direction

to the past. We've already had the past for the

future. I think that's your question. What can we

expect? We can expect more challenges, but we can

expect that with the other things that are

happening on the planet, including AI, it's a

great example of what could be used against us or

it could be used for us. So in leadership, I'd

say get your intentions clear, find your

sovereignty and use it to lead and share. Use it

to lead and share. Because there will be lots of

opportunities for all of us to lead. It's

everywhere, the possibilities of leadership.

Everywhere we go. There's. We could. You could be

at a coffee shop and be doing something being

some way that could shift the direction of

somebody's day. So how do you hear all that,

Meredith? I said, I said a lot to your question,

but did. Was there something in there that landed

in terms of.

Yeah, I mean, I think what a. What I'm really

experiencing is just what you're saying. There is

a lot of change, and what we know, what we're

familiar with might not necessarily work going

forward. So we cannot afford to not step into our

leadership. It's time. It's needed. All of. All

of you are needed. All of us are needed. And

that's, I think, probably always been true, but I

feel like it's extra true right now.

I think it's extra true, too. And I want to coin

a phrase, you just said it's worth repeating. All

of us are needed. Like, some of us are sitting on

the sideline. It's like, it's more fun to be in

the game anyway. I know what it's like to sit on

the sideline. I've done some isolation time in my

life, existential crises, that kind of thing,

where I'm like, I'm just out. Yeah, fuck it.

Like, I'm done.

Forget this anymore.

I just got hit too hard. I'm out. But I've

learned from those times, and inner strength

comes from those times. So if you're someone

sitting there going, yeah, I've been

contemplating how I can re. Engage. It's time you

said it. You said it so beautifully. It's time.

If not now, then when is the thing.

Yeah. And it's, you know, I don't. I just have

this sense. I was doing some research for a

presentation, going through looking at different

theories of cyclical nature of history and the

economy, and then looking at cosmology and

different philosophies and that it just seemed

that every single one of them was pointing to

this moment as a moment of the words that came

up, the most were upheaval and innovation and

change.

Yeah. It's beautiful.

And so. Yeah, that can feel scary. So the, the

tools and the wisdom that you have shared today,

I think are just so important, so, so important

because we can. We can know all a whole bunch of

stuff, and we could. But if we're not, as you

said, if we're not sharing it, if we're holding

ourselves back, then it's, you know, it's like,

Like, I don't know, almost like it might get

stuck. Like it wants to. The wisdom wants to go

out and reach other people.

Yeah. And there's a. There's. There's another

side to this coin I want to mention, because I

know a number of people. I'm thinking of one

person in particular who is so freaking smart and

is so right about so many things that he shares

on the planet. But this particular person has an

arrogance that causes resistance. So there's

someone doing the sharing, but from who are they

being? They're being arrogant. And if I'm being

arrogant about what I'm sharing, then there might

be some that get past that because they're just

skilled at getting past that. Like I said

earlier, you can take the message and leave the

rest behind. Like, it's. What is the old saying?

It's the message, not the messenger. Like, I'm

pretty good at that, but some people aren't. So

this person I'm thinking of are these people that

are so highly arrogant would be heard by so many

more people if they would consider refining their

way of being and becoming an even greater. An

even greater leader to communicate what they

know. So, you know, I don't know if there's

anyone listening here that falls into that

category, but I know at times in my life I really

had to refine my message through who I was being.

So that's.

That's true. And that is, I think, a bit of a

trap. When you, when you do have information and

knowledge and understanding that is ahead of the

curve, it can be tempting to feel that arrogance,

right? Like, oh, those, all those plebes, they

haven't figured this out yet.

They're wrong about this.

It's true. I think I tend to attract the people

who go the other way and get imposter syndrome.

But, yeah, that is definitely a booby trap to

look out for on this journey. I'm glad you

brought it up. At the end of the day, we're all

just. We're all just here together, figuring it

out as we go.

I think that's beautifully said. I know it's true

for me.

Steven, are there any last words that are on your

heart or mind that you'd like to share?

I'm just grateful to have met you through Peter.

I'm grateful for the work that you're doing.

You're sharing such meaningful, progressive work.

So my words, my final words aren't about

leadership or anything other than the fact that

you're doing it, you know, and that you're being

it and that I appreciate that about you. It is an

easy leading, right, isn't it? I don't know how

you feel, but some days you might wake up and

feel alone. You might wake up and feel isolated.

I know there's days I have that, and those are

the days that are most important for us as

leaders to get together and, and, and support

each other in staying in the game, so that isn't

so isolating and so lonely to lead. And, you

know, the biggest reason is really because we

can. But I appreciate you and what you're doing.

Those are my final words.

Oh, thank you, Stephen. Well, same here. You

know, this. This work is really needed, and I'm

glad we're all. We're all here together figuring

it out. Thank you for your time today and for

sharing everything. Oh, and how can people find

you.

McGee, McGH leadership dot com. I'll provide you

links to put in the show notes for anybody that's

interested in what I'm up to. There are a few

things coming around the first of the year, so

looking forward to those things.

Wonderful. Okay, so. So when this publishes,

those will all be in there and we can come and

find you. And I will. I'll mention them in the

intro as well, which I'll record.

Yeah. If anybody's interested, too, go to my

website, put in your email, and I send out some

written pieces. One of them's on discretionary

energy. I'm happy to forward those to anybody

interested.

Oh, perfect. Yes. All right, so sign up for

Steven's emails and get the wisdom in the printed

word. All right. Thank you, Stephen. We'll have

to do this again and continue to dive deep.

Thank you.