Our next guest is Jamie McManus. Thank you for being here and welcome to The Junction.

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Excellent. So can you tell us about what it is that you do and how it relates to animal forensics?

Well, I am a prosecutor in the state of Florida. I work for the state attorney's office of the Ninth Judicial Circuit. My boss is Andrew Bain, the state attorney. We have an animal cruelty unit at the office of the state attorney in the Ninth Circuit, which covers orange and Osceola. The Animal Cruelty Unit is, consists of prosecutors who actually just volunteer, right, to take animal cases that come into their division in addition to all of their other cases. So they're actually doing more work and we're not paying them more for it. So

as a prosecutor, how do you prepare for a case?

So the first thing I do, um, if we're talking about What charges am I going to file? I'm going to read everything that was written about this incident. Sometimes I'm left with questions after reviewing everything I've been given so I may reach out to my animal services, often my veterinarian to help me fill in the blanks, um, or the detective if there was one to try to get the additional information and usually it's information that I know, if we were at trial, the jury would be asking, what about this thing? So I try to anticipate all that on the front end to make sure all their questions are answered in the event we have to go to trial.

I spoke with Lauryn Day 'cause we were talking about the warrants and the seizures and that kind of stuff. So the term motion to suppress came about. So what, what does that mean and how does it impact the, your ability to prosecute a case?

So, it could be devastating, right? A motion to suppress is a written motion filed by the defendant or his attorney asking the court to throw out evidence. Exclude it. And the basis for that um, exclusion could be, is usually some kind of constitutional violation that the defendant is alleging. And the way we combat that, obviously, is first of all to make sure that the motion Um, is not founded, um, but if it is, is there a way to save the search? Um, ultimately, if the motion is granted and it can't be appealed because maybe it was a good motion, we could have to drop the case.

So that would be, for instance, like in a case of animal cruelty, if the, if the paraphernalia in a dogfighting case was not obtained properly or the warrant did not include it and that gets eliminated, then you are limited to not being able to file a dogfighting charge. Well,

it depends. What other evidence of dogfighting do I have? I mean, because, um, not to get it all into dogfighting, but, uh, you know, Where are the injuries on the animals? How many animals were there? What kinds of animals were there? What was the, uh, what did the yard look like? Were the animals being kept? I mean, you know as well as I do, there are a lot of ways to establish, uh, that someone is involved in animal fighting. Um, I would hate to lose the paraphernalia, but I would fight hard if I did.

In cases of animal cruelty, we have to take into consideration that animals are a different kind of evidence, right? They're living evidence and they cannot be put in a locker and locked up and maintained. So, um, what are, what are the purposes of bond hearings and cost of care hearings?

So those are actually two different things, at least in the state of Florida. So when an animal is seized from an owner who has not relinquished the animal, right, uh, there has to be a hearing where the judge just determines whether this person should get their property back because an animal is property, technically. Um, and so that's a civil proceeding, usually handled in Florida by our county attorneys. Now, a bond hearing, the defendant's been arrested for a crime and, um, has gone to jail, has not bonded out yet, either they can't afford the bond that has been assigned to their case or they want to be released on their own recognizance or something like that. So at that point, the purpose of the, of the hearing would be to establish that the defendant, um, should not be released on their own or cognizance based on the facts of the case based on, you know, maybe there's evidence that they don't have ties to the community. Maybe they'll flee. There's a whole list of different factors. The court is looking at at a bond hearing. Uh, there have been times where I filed a bond motion, but it wasn't obviously asking that the court reduced bond. It was asking that the court. impose conditions on the bond that weren't imposed at the time of arrest, such as you cannot own, possess, or be in the company of any animal, right? And you notice the language I use is very specific because what defendants have done historically is say, Oh, I don't own this dog. Right. It's my daughter's dog.

Right.

So I, I fixed the language so that you cannot be in a house conveyance or structure where there is an animal.

And then as far as the cost of care hearing, what is the purpose of that?

The purpose of, and, and to be clear, I haven't done those hearings, they're civil in nature. Um, I've helped a county attorney one time prepare for one just because there was a criminal case attached. But basically the court is trying to decide whether the owner is a danger to the animal, right? Um, there are specific factors the court's looking at, um, but essentially that's the, the purpose of it. Should the animal go back to this owner.

So by civil, it basically then in that, in those, uh, cost of care hearings, that's going to be more probable cause, not as much beyond reasonable doubt.

There is a different standard of proof. Um, probable cause is the second lowest legal standard that exists. So I doubt it would be probable cause at a hearing, uh, for, you know, custody hearing for the animals is probably preponderance or something like that. But yeah, it is less than beyond a reasonable doubt for sure.

So once you have everything together, how do you prepare yourself and your witnesses for trial?

First I prepare myself. I look at all the evidence and what is the story? What happened? Why did it happen? Right? What pieces of the background of this incident are important? Right? So After I develop the narrative, then I put my witness list together. There may be, you know, 30 people listed on the witness list just because they were somehow involved. And in the state of Florida, we have to list basically everyone who was involved. But who am I actually going to call at trial? I make that determination, and then I determine what is the evidence, uh, that I need to present? What does the jury need to see? More importantly, what do they want to see? Right? Um, and assuming that it's relevant and admissible, I will give them everything I can once I've got my game plan once I have built the house, right? I've got the frame built, um, got the plans. Then I start calling my witnesses and I will set meetings with each of them. For me, I have my witnesses come in the questions. I intend to ask them a trial. I've already written. The evidence I'm going to admit through them, I have copies of it, or I will, um, be able to show them on the computer. And we go through, um, the entire, uh, trial basically. Right? And, and that way I'm able to issue spot. And go back to the drawing board if I need to. Also, it serves the added purpose of the witness feels more comfortable. They know what is going to be asked. Um, they know the point I'm trying to make. And so, it's more like a conversation and less like an inquisition. Right.

And, and I appreciate that because I've, I've performed as an expert witness a couple of times, and I've had both ends of the spectrum. I had a prosecutor that showed me every question, discussed everything. I mean, she took a couple of hours to go over everything that she was going to go over. What kind of information she was going to have me read. What kind of records she was going to have me do. And then I've had the complete opposite, where I have no information, I have no idea of what I'm going to be shown. So, what should an expert witness expect from a prosecutor, or what should they kind of demand from a prosecutor?

An expert witness should demand to be prepared for trial. Right. Prosecutors are very busy. I know you probably heard in the talk I just gave, we have prosecutors in my office that have close to four and 500 cases. Um, that is a lot, it's a lot to read. It's a lot of witnesses to talk to. So we have to be kind of realistic with what they're able to do. Animal cruelty in Florida, it's a felony, but it's a third degree felony. So that means the prosecutors at the very bottom of circuit court, so the lowest level prosecutors, are the ones that handle the animal cruelty cases. The ones that have four and five hundred other cases, which is part of the reason, uh, you know, I thought it was really important to have an animal cruelty unit. Because a prosecutor who really cares about the subject matter, is going to put their heart into it. And do it right. Versus how they handle every other of their third degree felony cases. Keeping all that in mind, if your prosecutor does not reach out to you and you know, you've got a trial subpoena, right. I would reach out to the prosecutor. It may take a couple of times. But let them know, Hey, I don't know what you're going to ask me at trial. Can you call me and we can spend like 20, 30 minutes going over it? Um, and if you have your questions written out, you can send them to me and, and we'll save some time. Um, but really it, it's very important as the expert, uh, that you spend time ahead of time with your prosecutor. Uh, and you're right, the prep of an expert witness, even on a third degree felony, like an animal case, your prep would take a couple hours if I were doing it. I mean, and it's going to depend on the facts of the case, but you know, we have to establish your expertise. Um, and then we, we, we're not just talking only about the facts of the case. We're talking about your, your diagnosis and why you reached it. So in order to get there and, and to make it as, um, I guess digestible as possible for the jury, You know, the prosecutor and the, the veterinarian need to get together ahead of time and make sure they understand each other. It's already difficult enough because of the scientific terms. It's a specialty. So not only does a prosecutor need to learn what you know, kind of, but the prosecutor needs to be able to reinterpret that so that a jury will understand it. and use it in a meaningful way within the confines of the facts of their case.

Can a poorly prepared witness damage your case?

No, it's the prosecutor who damaged the case. So, yes, if the prosecutor poorly prepares their witnesses, the case can be affected.

Veterinarians are often needed for these cases, but I know from experience that a lot of veterinarians are reluctant to be expert witnesses for a lot of different reasons from feeling unprepared for feeling that they're going to be grilled and their knowledge and integrity is going to be put on the stand, like, they feel like they're on their stand. Um, to also feeling that, them being in a court of law as a witness is going to look bad to the community. They're going to say, well, if I take my sick animal to the vet, and the vet is testifying against me, you know, like, how is that going to look? And in my experience, none of those things are necessarily true, but I feel that it's a lack of preparation. How can you help a veterinarian feel more confident and be a more effective expert witness?

So the first thing I would say is anything that happens in the case is on the prosecutor. And maybe sometimes on the lead investigator. So I, I think a lot of veterinarians, uh, because they're high achieving people and they care about the animals. They're really just worried about messing something up and they don't want to be the cause of that.

Right. fear of failure.

Right. And I understand it. So I would just say to them, it's never on your witness. The second thing I would say, anytime you have an expert witness, that expert is going to be cross examined by defense. And defense is going to insinuate that that expert witness is not an expert, or that they're a bad expert, or that they're a dumb expert, um, and it's just par for the course. Like I said in my talk, you have to let the defense attorney do a good job, because if you don't, and we get a conviction, the case might come back and then we're going to do it again. So let the defense attorney do their thing. Um, the third thing I would say is that No matter what the defense says or does, um, the veterinarian is gonna have their opportunity to speak to the jury and tell the jury what happened to this animal. And the jury will make a credibility determination. Um, it's hard to imagine a scenario where a veterinarian loses credibility to the jury. Just because, um, you know, the defense attorney, you know, pointed out some minor flaw in some area, maybe of the necropsy, or pointed out, you know, well, you can't really know for certain that this is how the animal died. Well, no, I can't know for certain. I'm estimating, uh, based on my training and experience. So that's my legal opinion, you know, um, I think most of what I would say to a veterinarian who is hesitant to testify, uh, would be kind of focused on, don't worry, I got this. I just need you to be there and just answer the questions and don't worry about the rest. But if, if I can't get you there, um, then there may not be justice for this animal. Worse, this guy may do it again. Um, and so I think those are the big points I would bring to the veterinarians who are hesitant and I hope that eventually as we move forward, um, kind of developing a culture and prosecution offices where animal cases are taken seriously, we're going to call more and more vets to testify. Pretty soon, my hope is, that there won't be a vet or veterinarian in Orange or Osceola County who hasn't testified yet. And then it'll become old hat, right?

Yes. So that would, that would be great because, yeah, it is so important for a veterinarian to be able to explain what happened to the animal as opposed to a layperson, animal control officer, somebody that can be questioned, as you said, about the level of their expertise and their knowledge. Right. So we definitely need veterinarians to kind of step up and, and get over their fear and get it done.

Well, and you know, the, the most important thing to me, and I didn't say it, but you know, animals are voiceless victims. They literally have no voice. They will be abused and, brought to the brink of death by the owner or whomever. But they will still love the owner, uh, and, uh, they forgive. Um, but you know, when it's time to get justice for what happened to the animal, uh, there's really no one to speak for that animal except for the veterinarian. And really on my animal cases, the veterinarian is the most important witness.

Well, thank you very much for sharing your information with us. And thank you for everything that you do for animals. Thank you.

Thank you too for being a veterinarian, a forensic veterinarian at that. You guys are, uh, very necessary in my line of work. Thank you so much. Thanks.