[00:00:00] Speaker: The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

[00:00:17] Dan: Welcome back to Michel Podcast. Today we have Clint Byers on the show. Clint is the founding and lead pastor of Forward Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the author of 11 Christ-centered Books focused on identity, grace, and living fully accepted in Christ, including his newest release chosen and loved.

[00:00:33] Dan: Healing for the herding, rejected and overlooked. He has released more than 80 teaching series, created prayer and meditation resources called Tools for Transformation, and founded the Forward School of Transformation. He the Graduate of Impact International School Ministries and also serves as a regular guest speaker at Karas Bible College, founded by Andrew Womack.

[00:00:51] Dan: Clint, welcome to the show.

[00:00:53] Amanda: Welcome.

[00:00:54] Clint Byars: I'm happy to be here. It's good to see you guys again. It's been a little while, but I'm happy to have a chat with you guys.

[00:01:00] Dan: Absolutely. Yeah, we've been excited for this. Good to have you on the show. Hey, you know, you know, book shows that and love. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this book and why, and how you discern that this was a message that God wanted you to share now.

[00:01:18] Clint Byars: Yeah. Goodness. That's a, that's a big topic. I'm a, I'm a pastor at heart, you know, my wife and I love spending time with people and you know, when you, when you have that mindset and heart about you, you just, you go deep with people, you know, you, you get to know people, you get to know their kids, you get to know their stories, and you begin to empathize with them and.

[00:01:47] Clint Byars: You know, when they hurt, you hurt. People will, people will talk about pastoral ministry and they ask me, you know, is it difficult? Is it hard? I'm like, not really. I mean, you know, when you set people free, when you preach the finished work of the cross and, and, you aren't trying to control people, you're just serving, you know, loving people and serving God.

[00:02:06] Clint Byars: Then at, at that point, what's left is the gospel and the people. And so what inspired the book is really just years of conversations with people and noticing that so many people are carrying you know, trauma from their past. They're carrying these words, get stuck. Within them that their parents have said to them when they were children or maybe even a teacher, you know, or a spouse.

[00:02:38] Clint Byars: So this book kind of was inspired by a couple of people that I'd had conversations with, and I just felt myself leading people to experience God's love for them to help them. Overcome the rejection, overcome the heartache and the pain that they'd experienced in relationship with someone else, and saturate themselves with the perspective that God has chosen you.

[00:03:05] Clint Byars: He hasn't overlooked you. You know, and then also too framing the understanding of the rejection that Christ went through on our behalf, becoming our sin, becoming the curse of the law. Then being forsaken by God on the cross. 'cause that that, I mean, that really is where the healing takes place. You know that while we were dead in our sin, Christ died for us.

[00:03:30] Clint Byars: And the fact that Jesus came here to redeem us. From the ultimate rejection of being rejected by a holy and righteous God, but because he loves us, wanted to set us free from that. So that's a big answer. You know, there's a lot to chew on in that, but, but I think the short answer is there's a lot hurting people and through knowing God's love for them, they can become whole and, and ex and experience, you know, healing.

[00:04:04] Dan: I love how you mentioned, you know, you're a pastor and you love people, and I think that's just, it's so important that. We focus on that because I think so many times, pastors, they start off loving people, but they get so busy , in the business of ministry, they get so busy in the everyday aspects of running a church and ministry that they, that sometimes that, that people can almost fall through the cracks that you can't love in the way that you, that you want to love. And that's not a judgment, that's just more of an observation that, you know, that pastors, they, they start off really wanting to care and it, it just, they become quickly overloaded because there's so many hurting people out there. There's so many people that have gone through so many things and you know, the, that the church is there, it's, it's there to, to help people navigate those things.

[00:04:51] Dan: And I just know there's a lot of people, and I even believers that know , that God loves them, but they're still wrestling with these feelings of. It's like thinking that they're unwanted and they feel like they're overlooked. And I'm just wondering why do you think that disconnect happens? What have you seen in your counseling sessions and you know, just into re doing the research for the books?

[00:05:09] Dan: Where's that disconnect?

[00:05:11] Clint Byars: , I think because humanity is flawed, you know, I mean, we're all. Our righteousness is as filthy rags , and none of us are good enough on our own. And I think unfortunately because our parents are flawed, our friends are flawed. Our, you know, basically everybody that we're in a relationship we, that we depend on and we look to, fail us. And I, I'm not trying to paint a dismal picture here because, you know, I love people. Humans are awesome and have done some amazing things. But you know, to, to the point of your question, I think, you know, PE people are looking in the wrong place for identity for their worth. And for their value.

[00:06:00] Clint Byars: And oftentimes we, you know, we put too much stock in what other people think and what other people say. And it's really kind of a double-edged sword because God created a family, you know. He, I, I, I like to say God made a planet for two people and he put them in the planet and he said, be fruitful and multiply.

[00:06:19] Clint Byars: And it was in the context of family, you know, so God is into relationships. He, he is into family. Us being there for each other and strengthening each other and, and what he's doing in the earth today is relationally building his body. And one of the greatest things that we can do is learn how to love one another unite our hearts together as the church.

[00:06:42] Clint Byars: That should be the very thing that is, is our hallmark of how we're known in the earth as our love for one another. But in terms of where the disconnect comes from, you know, I think. God isn't the source of identity. For people. And so we look to, I mean from kids all the way growing up, you know, we look to a friend group, whether it's a sports team, that becomes our identity.

[00:07:09] Clint Byars: If we have particular kind of shortcomings in our home, then we look to whatever group that we fit into. And that becomes of our, becomes our identity. And you know, in extreme cases, people get into gangs or they get into certain kinds of activities that that just erode. Who they can be in Christ rather than putting on the mindset of who we are in him and having value that's birthed from, you know, David King.

[00:07:39] Clint Byars: David said, he said, what is man that you're mindful of us? What do you even care about us? And then I think he kind of prophesies the answer back to himself, he says. Made us a little bit lower than Elohim. You've crowned us with, you know, glory and honor and dignity and worth, and you've put us over the works of your hands.

[00:07:56] Clint Byars: And so, so I think the disconnect comes from we don't, you know, humanity in general doesn't know to look to God to get our worth and our value first and foremost. Then go about living our lives and interacting with people. We look to people and because people are broken we don't get that strong sense of identity.

[00:08:22] Clint Byars: That can only come from, you know, from God, from our creator who, who designed us in the first place and, and determined. Are worth and value. I get, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get preachy on you. You're asking me some of my favorite kind of questions to talk about, so I, I'm trying not to get too wordy on you here.

[00:08:42] Dan: Preach. No, no worries. You preach it. You preach it. That's, that's good. You know, it's made, making me think of, . Romans eight 15, it says, you've received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry. Abba, father, you talked about family. You know that, that we, that our spirit like inside, we all wanna cry.

[00:08:58] Dan: Abba, father, that like we want that father , and so many times within. Our own culture too. Just there's this performance, you know, it's more, more, more harder, harder, harder, ? And this lie that if we go faster, harder further, then more people will love us. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's, that's the lie, right?

[00:09:16] Dan: Like, that's the deception that gets into our heart. And so, , we may hear these things that the father loves us and that , that , he wants to know you and that he, , he wants to have an intimate relationship with you, but. So often that remains here in the head and it doesn't sink down into the heart.

[00:09:30] Dan: Mm-hmm. And I know that that's, , one of your main thrusts is, helping people understand their true identity. And so what have you seen, like, what changes in a person's life when they, when they genuinely believe , that they're chosen, that they're accepted, that they're loved by Father God?

[00:09:47] Clint Byars: Yeah. There, there's a few big categories. One is their interstate changes. So, in other words, they, they learn how to just not let circumstances around them be so impactful in their lives. You know, people, people learn how to be at peace. It's interesting, you know, you think of it in a marriage or you think of it in a healthy relationship with children, with their parents.

[00:10:13] Clint Byars: You know, if you, or just even friendships, if you feel safe with someone, you know, you kinda let your guard down. And then when you let your guard down, a whole bunch of things come along with that honesty and transparency comes along with that, which is what we then. End up doing with the Lord, which I would consider the repentant and, you know, confessing our sins unto him.

[00:10:39] Clint Byars: Not, not to constantly try to get him to forgive us over and over, or try to be born again, again, and again and again. But just, just to clear our conscience to, to know that we can boldly come before him and, and because we're accepted, because of what Christ has done, you know, not, not making excuse to continue in sin.

[00:10:59] Clint Byars: But just knowing that, okay, he loves me, and he went through great effort to create me. He knew me before I was even formed. He knitted me together in my mother's womb, even when I was still a sinner. Jesus died for me. You know? It's because he loved me. He died for me. And, and I, and I, you hear a lot of Christians say this sometimes in intimate moments of worship, they just kind of feel like they're impressed upon by the Holy Spirit where he communicates, you know, I would've done this even if you were the only one.

[00:11:36] Clint Byars: It, it seems to be that's how much value he has for us. So. I think that's, that's really one of the, one of the biggest transformations that I see when people really grasp the fact that the links through which Jesus went to, to choose us is they just, they feel safe with God, you know, they feel safe with him, which then unlocks.

[00:12:02] Clint Byars: So many different areas of life. Another one of the big areas I see is that people start to understand how they can lean into grace to be strengthened, to overcome these repetitive sin issues that people struggle with, you know, their entire lives. I mean, we still have these bodies. We still have this flesh, you know, it still has the capacity to to choose sin if we let those desires run that route, but.

[00:12:30] Clint Byars: When you, when you understand God's love for you and you've renewed your mind to who you really are in Christ, you know, some of these powerful Romans truths that we see the Apostle Paul teach that, you know, we're no longer under the power of sin, but we're under the power of grace. You see, people actually begin to break free from these lifelong controlling sin habits that they have, and, and.

[00:12:56] Clint Byars: It's almo. You know, it's interesting when people step into the grace to overcome these life controlling issues and habits and destructive patterns when they start to understand. Grace is all rooted in knowing God's love for you. I may, I may have gotten off track of what you were asking there, but there, you know, there there's a whole host of, of fruits that that I've seen.

[00:13:25] Clint Byars: But I think feeling safe with God and then letting God empower them so that they break free from the darkness that they've been living in. Those, those are probably two of the the biggest areas that I've seen really.

[00:13:39] Dan: I love how you ended there with , with love, because that is one of the first fruits that, that love, joy, peace, right?

[00:13:44] Dan: And , when we experienced the love of the father it helps us love better too. And , so much of it is based off of , that first intimate relationship of love. , And I was thinking about how you mentioned trust too, and I've been sharing this a lot. Within groups down here in, in Belize.

[00:14:00] Dan: We were talking earlier offline, how we have two two children. A daughter who's 11 and a son who is six. And lets you in on a little goofy game, like , when our daughter was younger, , I played this game called Hotdog, right? And so I would she would lay in my arms kind of.

[00:14:14] Dan: Kind of almost just lifeless, you know? And, we'd have to go through all the toppings. I'd throw her up in the air and she's like, ketchup. So then we gotta throw her up in the air and ketchup and put mustard on it and Kony dog and all these different things.

[00:14:25] Dan: And because , we started playing that game. I don't know when she was like. Four or five, six, I forget what it was, but she just trusted Daddy. Yeah, she just, she, she knew that daddy was gonna catch her. Oh man. I love, love that. And, , she just, whatever, I'd catch her, but then Judah wanted to play that game too, but he saw those game when he was like three or you know, four.

[00:14:44] Dan: And so. He wanted to play, but there was , a different reaction mm-hmm. That when I threw him up in the air, he was more stiff. Mm-hmm. He was, he was more bracing for impact because he didn't necessarily know that his dad was gonna catch him.

[00:14:59] Clint Byars: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:59] Dan: And so there was a different degree of trust and now he's six.

[00:15:06] Dan: I can toss him up high as I can go, and he knows that dad's gonna catch him. But it it's just taken those years of being with me, knowing me, going through things with me, knowing that my heart is good, that I am going to. Catch him and that he can trust me in those things.

[00:15:22] Dan: And not only that, that extend extended into other situations too, that man, I can trust him in hotdog situations, but I can also trust him. You know, when we're, when we're crossing the road or when we're going into a different country or something like that. And dad has instructions. It's not from a heart of, you know, control, but rather a, a heart of love and protection.

[00:15:41] Dan: Mm-hmm. And when we catch a revelation , that, , is infinitely. More in our Heavenly Father than our earthly fathers man. And we get a revel, a heart knowledge of that,

[00:15:53] Clint Byars: right?

[00:15:53] Dan: That can, that can break so many chains and shackles in our lives and the things that try to connect and just hold us back from becoming who we're meant to be and knowing the father the way that he wants to be known.

[00:16:06] Clint Byars: Well, and it's such a key facet knowing that he's a father, you know, because we could probably talk for hours on this, but you know, I don't, I don't wanna blame the church for misrepresenting God, although I think we, we have, you know, to a degree. But I think in general, you know, people. Don't see God as a father.

[00:16:28] Clint Byars: If you were to talk to the average person on the street, that's not necessarily very versed in scripture. And even a lot of, even a lot of Christians, I call 'em, you know, there's a whole swath of elder brother Christians out there that are working for their salvation and they're, they're mad that the father has shown the, the prodigal mercy and, you know, welcomed him in willingly.

[00:16:49] Clint Byars: But it's like. We need to be showing the world what you just described with your children. That heart of our father toward us in general. And it's a key part. You know, it's a, it's a really key facet of people experiencing freedom and learning to trust God and learning to let him heal them. And, you know, convict them.

[00:17:15] Clint Byars: You know, for, for us, for as believers, there's no condemnation for those that are us in Christ, but the Holy Spirit will still convict. I mean, you know, there, there's, even though you have that L Love. Loving relationship and that playful time with your children. There's times where you still have to instruct them.

[00:17:32] Clint Byars: You know that mom and dad come out and it's like, okay, there's a disciplinary action that needs to happen here. But even in that, it's from a heart of love. It's from a place of you care about them, you have their best interest in mind. You're not even wanting to discipline them as a chastisement or really even a penalty.

[00:17:53] Clint Byars: It's no, you know, you need to learn. That life will go better for you if you live this way. And of course there is that aspect of God. But, but back to your, your illustration, it's such a key part of people's healing journey is to come to know God as a loving father. You know, to know him as someone who, when God looks at us in general.

[00:18:22] Clint Byars: He has affection, you know, that he doesn't lead with anger, that he doesn't lead with disappointment. You know, some, some people have a view of God as if. You know, he's just itching to hold something against us that he's, you know, almost like a Greek kind of mythological God, where he is just kinda angry and he is upset and he doesn't really like humanity very much, and we disappoint him and we're just, you know, not very valuable to him.

[00:18:51] Clint Byars: And he, you know, ugh, a little bit of a disdain there. It's like, no, you know, they're, they're, they're. God is love. If you were to take God, if you could do this and, and take whatever substance he is and put that under a microscope and observe it, it's it's love. He is the very substance of love and what comes out of him is that and, and, and to help people experience that aspect.

[00:19:21] Clint Byars: Is is such a power. You can see the epiphanies happen. You know, you can see the cliques happen when people get revelations of it. I just did a series in our church called Friends of God and I, and I love in John chapter 15. Jesus is getting ready to wrap things up. His earthly ministry, he's gonna allow himself to be arrested, go to the cross for us willingly.

[00:19:45] Clint Byars: But he, but he is very deliberate about speaking to his disciples and framing how he sees them because he knows that he's gonna leave, and he pro, he makes all these incredible promises. I'm gonna go, but I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit. When the spirit comes, it's me and the father come and making our home with you.

[00:20:03] Clint Byars: We're gonna be with you. And the father himself loves you and he just says all these incredible things. But, but one thing that really stood out in the last couple of months for me is I've been speaking his. Jesus says, okay. Like in my mind, I, I like, I, I'm visual, so when I read scripture, I kinda like to see imageries.

[00:20:22] Clint Byars: I'm, I'm not trying to have a vision. I'm just kind of letting my imagination build the story visually for me. And I can just imagine Jesus, you know, he is speaking to his disciples and he is like, listen, I need you guys to get this. And I, I just see him grabbing hold of our shoulders, you know, and he is like, okay, I.

[00:20:43] Clint Byars: This is important. I need you to understand this. And he says to them, I no longer call you servants. I don't see you as servants. I see you as a friend.

[00:20:54] Amanda: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:54] Clint Byars: Got it. And I just see him pausing and looking and it's like, you know when, when you understand, language and you understand how ideas are put together.

[00:21:06] Clint Byars: You understand framing and the psychology behind. If someone takes the time to tell you how they see you and think about how rare that is, you know, think about how rare people come into your life and they say, Hey guys, I just want you to know this is how I see you. I really appreciate you, or, you know, you've kind of brought this difficulty into my life and you need to see, you know, people aren't, aren't that deliberate to tell you how they feel about you and how they see you to so that you know where you stand with them.

[00:21:39] Clint Byars: And this is one of the things that I try to do with my kids as a pastor, as a leader in our church. When, when I put other team leaders in place, I always try to coach our team leaders. In a way that they're communicating to their volunteers and people on their teams. In, in such a way where that person knows where they stand.

[00:22:01] Clint Byars: Because people are always kind of wondering, well, you know, where do I fit here? How do I stand? And what, what's, you know, who am I? Where am I? Who am I supposed to be in this setting? And so it's empowering. You can communicate vision that way you can communicate responsibilities that way you can set people free.

[00:22:17] Clint Byars: That way you can ease a lot of people's pensiveness of wondering if they're doing the right thing or not that way, but, but I just see Jesus doing that. You know, he's very deliberate and very careful and very specific to say, I don't see you as servants. I see you as my friend. And I, in my mind, he just sits there and lets it sink in, you know?

[00:22:40] Clint Byars: And it's just such a powerful shift that if we can help people see the father as someone that actually likes us and wants to be involved in our lives, people will start to let their guard down. They'll start to recognize, well, maybe my view of God needs to change a little bit. And he's not. Bringing these difficulties into my life to teach me a lesson for some weird mystical reason.

[00:23:06] Clint Byars: You know, may maybe things happen just because we make bad choices. He gave mankind dominion over this planet. Sin is in the earth, things happen. Maybe God actually is good. Maybe I actually can trust him. Maybe, maybe. I haven't quite yet been told the truth of how he feels about me. And so, I, I need to let him.

[00:23:28] Clint Byars: Define to me how he sees me. And that's one of the, that's one of the in the book Chosen and Loved, which, you know, you kind of brought up in the beginning. I've got a lot of exercises in there where there's some steps that people can go through mind renewal to reframe how they see God and then, and then.

[00:23:50] Clint Byars: Use scripture to let God frame how he sees you, and then you just pray that they open their hearts and, and let that Holy Spirit connection, you know, be meaningful to them and, and, and and speak to them in those moments. But yeah, changing the way people see God is such a, such a, a vital aspect of this journey to help people, you know, find freedom and, and actually trust him.

[00:24:16] Amanda: Yeah, you said something earlier that , really can affect people more than we realize. And just that , even in, , biblical times, whether Old Testament, new Testament, there were other gods in other pagan nations. Mm-hmm. And there were constantly needing to be pleased.

[00:24:33] Amanda: They were constantly needing things and. You know, even in Greek mythology, , it's like a demonic soap opera is really what it boils down to. Yeah. That's

[00:24:43] Clint Byars: a, that's a great, I've never heard that explanation, but that is a great way to frame it.

[00:24:48] Amanda: Just like, though this God made this other God mad and then this person made this God mad.

[00:24:52] Amanda: They're always getting angry at each other and there's vengeance and jealousy and all this ugliness that is not of of the one true God, but one truth that. I've really been meditating on lately and just thinking of is that, , God doesn't need us. He wants us.

[00:25:09] Clint Byars: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:09] Amanda: Like, we're not needed. You know, there's that, that joke that sometimes people, you know, throw around of, well God, you know, if God can talk through a donkey,

[00:25:20] Clint Byars: I say, I use that one all the time.

[00:25:24] Amanda: But just that his desire for us is so much greater than what we, we can realize. And, and he even took the time to write that through so many different people in the scriptures as well.

[00:25:38] Clint Byars: Yeah. It made me think about Mel Gibson. Have you guys been watching any of his interviews? Talking about the.

[00:25:46] Clint Byars: Follow up movie to the passion of the Christ that he's making. I don't know if you've, if you've seen any of those, but there's, there's this one interview. Yeah. And it, and it's interesting. It looks like it's gonna be post crucifixion, pre resurrection. So those three days in the grave, he's gonna try to, you know, make a movie about that. So that should be interesting. But, but you know, Mel's a little quirky in, in how he speaks, but he make, there's this one comment he says, you know, why did the are not to create some dualistic thing, like the enemy is as powerful as God, but, you know, kind of just using language here without being, worrying about being too biblical about it.

[00:26:32] Clint Byars: But, you know, why are the forces of good and evil. Duking it out for the souls of men. You know, why little old us, why wouldn't they just go straight after God? Why try to hurt God through corrupting mankind? And you know, this goes into the fall of man and, and the serpent in the garden going to deceive mankind.

[00:26:59] Clint Byars: And it's like. You know, there's something about humanity that's more valuable than I think your typical religious perspective of humans portrays. You know, we're created in his image. We are the reflection of God in the earth. I'm, I'm not saying we're gods or that we become Gods or nothing like that.

[00:27:22] Clint Byars: I'm just saying we're his offspring. And it, it's as if he's, he. So he rules in the heavens and, and everywhere. He's the preeminent one. He's the one true God. There's no one like him. But then he makes this realm. And he creates us in his image almost as if to rule and reign in the earth as he rules in the heavens, you know, for us to be subjected to him.

[00:27:48] Clint Byars: And yeah, it just, it kind of makes you think maybe, maybe humanity is more valuable to God than, than we realize. Maybe we aren't just. Depraved worthless pieces of meat worms crawling in the ground that he doesn't really care that much about. You know, maybe, maybe there's something about us that he deeply values and, and loves, like, and as you said, it's such a good point.

[00:28:11] Clint Byars: Not because he needs us, he's whole and complete in and of himself, but he wants us, he wanted a family, you know, you. I make this joke, of course, we're in Georgia and there's farmers and there's always the one guy that raises his hand. But I ask, you know, how many of you had kids so that they would work for you?

[00:28:30] Clint Byars: And the farmer's like, ah, me, you know, and it gets a laugh, but, but, but realistically, nobody has kids so that they'll work for them. You know, we have kids as. An expression of our love for our spouse. You know, children are our lineage. They're, they're, they look just like us. Amazing how that happens, right?

[00:28:51] Clint Byars: They come out for better or for worse. They act just like sometimes and it's just the model, you know? It's, it's the model of us being the offspring of God and, and of course, in Christ being made born aga, being born again and being given the right to be his children. But yeah, it you know, we're, we're, he, he wants us.

[00:29:13] Clint Byars: It's, it's a good point.

[00:29:16] Dan: Wow. You, you were talking earlier, you made such a good point about rejection and just, you know, so many times that people can go through rejection in life. I know that we work with a lot of people down here, even in Belize, that, you know, like they don't wanna really even see, our heavenly Father as father because their experience with their earthly father is, you know, one of rejection or just one of, you know, just some kind of really bad experiences that they don't wanna even think about anymore.

[00:29:46] Mm.

[00:29:46] Dan: And, you know, those things can really affect our identity.

[00:29:49] Dan: And, and if it's never dealt with, it can begin to, you know, almost turn into shame and. And ult and ultimately, you know, those, those sorts of things can help us. I mean, they can make us see ourselves differently. And it's the whole idea of identity. And you were talking about how, you know, for better or for worse, kids come out and they look like us, you know, and you know how much the father really wants us to look like him.

[00:30:12] Dan: Here in this, in this world. And we, we do that by, by being transformed, by the renewing of our minds. And, , by spending time with him and allowing his spirit to move and to, to help us, you know, speak like him and to act like him and to, and, and to go to the places that he would go. And so I'm just wondering, , regarding.

[00:30:32] Dan: Rejection and shame. And these are the things that really are not part of, the identity that God wants us to have. And so I'm just wondering , what tools or , what would you say to the person that is dealing with rejection and shame in their life right now? And help them give them a word of encouragement and help them understand that that's not how the father wants them to truly be and to act.

[00:30:57] Clint Byars: Yeah, and I think it's just kind of a continuation of, of some of these ideas, you know, so condemnation and guilt and shame. So this is, so this is where I, I kind of go into talking about the heart, right? Yes. The heart is, is it's, it's hard to. State how important it is for us to guard our hearts and for us to believe the word of God at a heart level.

[00:31:30] Clint Byars: You know, the, the, the word heart is mentioned over 800 times in scripture. It's actually mentioned more than love. It's mentioned more than faith. It's mentioned more than obedience. You know, Proverbs tells us that above all else, guard your heart because out of it flow the issues of life as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

[00:31:52] Clint Byars: And it's interesting that the heart is the only thing. That God gives us a new one of in the born again process. You know, our spirit we're dead in sin, and then we're resurrected and made alive in Christ, and he joins his spirit to us, but he gives us a new heart. It's as if he removes that core of sin out of you.

[00:32:17] Clint Byars: He removes that old, stony heart, and he gives you a new heart and this new heart. Has God's ways. In his logic, it says this commands written upon it, but it, but what that's saying is that we are changed at such a deep level that we now actually can hear and obey God. Based on what kind of creature we now are.

[00:32:43] Clint Byars: See, it used to be we had these wicked and deceitful hearts, stony cutoff from God dulled in spiritual sensitivity to his voice. But then he makes us new and he gives us a new heart. It used to be where obedience to God, we would have to look to external laws written in stone to know and obey. But he changes us now internally where we have this connection with him, where it's as if his voice is echoing, you know how to follow him and how to obey internally.

[00:33:23] Clint Byars: And I'll even say this, it almost even becomes natural for us to hear and obey God. You know, we, we aren't. Sinful by nature. After that new creation any longer, you, you still have these bodies and you still have the capacity to choose sin if you so choose, if you believe those things about yourself. But you know, this new heart is incredibly dynamic now.

[00:33:46] Clint Byars: So the other facet of that is. The heart is where we believe because, you know, we see that belief is a capacity of the heart. Belief is not. Belief doesn't really happen in the brain. Processing happens in the brain. It says that it is with the heart. We believe unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made under salvation.

[00:34:10] Clint Byars: So that gives us the the, the. Understanding that belief is a heart capacity. So anyway, I just wanted to set the stage a little bit to answer your question about rejection and shame and guilt and all that, because ultimately the image that you have of yourself is written upon your heart. And, and I, I, I teach on this a lot and I've got a bunch of, I've got a bunch of free stuff on my website if people want to go hear a little bit more about this teaching about the heart.

[00:34:42] Clint Byars: And I, I talk a lot about it in the book chosen and loved as well. But even with the new Heart, what you believe in your heart becomes like this self portrait. That you, you check this image of what you believe about yourself when you're in any situation, and it's, you know, let's say you're confronted with temptation or you're confronted with an opportunity to, to succeed beyond what you think you deserve, or you're confront, you're presented with an opportunity to enter into a relationship that's destructive for you, but maybe at a heart level.

[00:35:24] Clint Byars: You see yourself in that kind of relationship. So the beliefs of your heart will allow you to go into that type of relationship, even though in your mind, you know it's destructive for you. At a heart level, this is who I believe that I am, and this conflict happens between knowledge and belief. And the heart always wins out long term and you end up doing what you believe more than what you think.

[00:35:49] Clint Byars: And that's what creates a lot of conflict for people. But so then when you start talking about guilt and shame and condemnation, they become self-fulfilling prophecies and you almost have to kinda break guilt, shame, and condemnation into two different categories. Let's just say shame. Shame can be present.

[00:36:09] Clint Byars: Because of one of two. And these are broad categories, but one of two reasons. Because something happened to you or because you've done something yourself that has written that shame on your heart. So if you have a pattern of sinful behavior and you continue to make these choices. It will produce guilt and shame of your own fruit, of your own actions.

[00:36:33] Clint Byars: But if you've been abused or traumatized or taken advantage of, and then it installs a sense of shame, you know, maybe the person that did these things to you, said things to you and you took upon yourself that T we can then become vexed. Whether it's fruit of our own choices and behavior that produces the shame, and then the shame drives the destructive behaviors, or we've been violated, which produces shame, which then lives in the heart.

[00:37:04] Clint Byars: We write those things on our heart. We believe that's who we are. We then become vexed. And vexation is an interesting biblical concept. You know, vexation is not when a witch casts a spell or something like that. A vexation is. An image of yourself that you have that's destructive, that drives you know, destructive patterns even though you hate it.

[00:37:30] Clint Byars: So, for example, let's say. Someone in their childhood experiences abuse, you know, God forbid. And then that person grows up to be an abuser and they hate what happened to them. You know, they, they hate the person that did it to them. They grew up, you know, be despising it, feeling dirty about it, but yet they repeat the same.

[00:37:54] Clint Byars: Patterns. Why would they do that? You know, a good typical charismatic Christian would say, well, it's a generational curse, or it's a devil. And it's like, well, you don't, you don't get to just have such an easy out. The enemy may be involved, but the deeper issue is at a heart level. That's how that person sees themselves.

[00:38:14] Clint Byars: The thing happened to them, whether it be a fruit of their own choices or the, the in injustice that happened to them, it creates a heart belief. And then that internal self-image drives behavior without even thinking about it. And, you know, and we know this. Sin. People that are born again believers, but continue sin, habits and patterns.

[00:38:41] Clint Byars: And then afterward that guilt and shame kicks in. And you're sitting there thinking, why, why did I do that? What, what, what in the world? This is no good for me. It hurts people. It hurts me. God isn't pleased with it. Why? Why? Well, that's how you see yourself. The interesting thing is for a believer, it's no longer.

[00:39:01] Clint Byars: Your nature to do those things because he's made you the righteousness of God in Christ. But at a heart level, you gotta renew your mind so that you believe these truths about who you are in Christ. And then that begins to drive your automatic behaviors, you know? Psychologists refer to the subconscious mind, the heart kind of becomes that new spiritual subconscious for you, and we live out of our, the beliefs of, of our heart.

[00:39:30] Clint Byars: So I, I, you know that, that's a lot. I, I, I tried to kind of give the summary, but, but this is where we go into, you know, if you want to experience transformation, you, you, you have to do more than just. Understand and believe the word you have to. Renew your mind and put on the new man at the deepest parts of who you are so that you actually believe that God has made you a new creation, that Jesus did become your sin, so that you could become the righteousness of God in Christ and that you are a new creature.

[00:40:08] Clint Byars: And that, you know, there's just so many identity promises and identity passages that come out of the new birth that, that people need to camp out and, and take upon this. Mindset of who they now are in Christ. And I, I think it's one of the reasons why I like to talk about identity so much because, you know, if somebody actually starts to believe that God has made them new, their life just starts changing.

[00:40:32] Clint Byars: This transformation happens without the effort. Gosh, there's so many landmines here. I feel like I gotta qualify some statements. I mean, you know, you, you need to put forth effort, but you labor to enter into the rest of what Christ has done in you. So, I don't know. I'll put it to be continued on that because that's there, there's so much more you could just keep going with there.

[00:40:53] Dan: So good. I know this is a big thing for you and as I'm. Listening. What I'm seeing , in my mental picture is just like this shame, rejection, all these different things. It's almost like the, this wall that we keep on running up against or this fence that we can't just get over.

[00:41:09] Dan: Right. And, you know, the thrust of this conversation has been really how do we get over that? You know? Right now let's , let's jump that for just a couple minutes.

[00:41:17] Clint Byars: Okay. And.

[00:41:19] Dan: Now all of a sudden, like when we can get past some of those things, and I know this like inherent even in the, name of your church, forward church, you wanna take territory, right?

[00:41:26] Dan: . As a coach, as somebody who loves seeing people make that transformation and step into the purposes and the callings of God in their lives.

[00:41:35] Clint Byars: Yeah.

[00:41:36] Dan: Like what does that look like now when people hop that fence, when they get past those things and now that's no longer a barrier, but that's like actually the wall or the the floor that they push off from, and now they have that foundation.

[00:41:48] Dan: Behind them. And that just shifts everything. That shifts the way that we pray, that lifts the way that we worship how we live our daily life. It shifts how we view , our future and the calling and purposes. And so what have you seen as a coach or the pastor when people step away from that and now that's behind them and they're clear to move into the territory that calls that God has called them into?

[00:42:08] Dan: Paint that picture for us.

[00:42:10] Clint Byars: Man, you keep hitting all my sweet spots. I, I love talking about these, these kinds of topics. And I don't mean to keep plugging things, but I've got this book out there called, who Do You Love, where I actually talk about this a lot, which, by the way, lemme say this, anybody that's watching this, wherever they're gonna watch this.

[00:42:26] Clint Byars: If if anybody wants, and I'll send these, we could talk about how to, how you want to handle the resources. I, I love giving stuff away for free. I've got eBooks of every. Resource that I have, I wanna make those available to anybody that's watching, that's interested in these. You know, I'm not here to haw a book and make a dollar.

[00:42:45] Clint Byars: I wanna get these resources in the hands of people, but, okay, so to answer your question. And, and again, I, I, you know, I go back to this kind of pastoral mindset because it's, it's actually a question I have a lot with people, you know? And one of our core values of our church is get your own vision.

[00:43:03] Amanda: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:03] Clint Byars: And, and I say it that way because, you know, churches are kind of notorious for saying, and I'm not trying to condemn people if they say these kinds of things. 'cause I, I get it. But churches are kind of notorious for saying, catch our vision. Serve our vision. Then God will give you a ministry one day.

[00:43:25] Clint Byars: And it's like, I don't know, but I don't love that. You know? What I want to do is I actually want to help people in intimacy with the Lord, birth a vision between them and the Holy Spirit of what God wants them to do with their lives. I don't want people to come in. And serve my vision for my ministry. I mean, I have a vision, I have a personal vision.

[00:43:47] Clint Byars: I have a ministerial vision. I have a vision for my family. We do have a vision for our church, but, but you know, in terms of making disciples and equipping the saints for the work of the ministry, I want people to know what God is leading them to do. So. To get to answering your question, and, and I like how you framed it.

[00:44:06] Clint Byars: You know, once people are experiencing some wholeness and healing, they're, they're using that as a, as a springboard. The, the concept that I've developed as a pastor is this idea of who do you love? So I started, you know, I, I would hear myself after years of pastoral counseling and sitting with people, one of the big topics that comes up for people, you know, they're doing pretty good, but they get to a place where they're like, gosh, I just don't know what God wants me to do.

[00:44:32] Clint Byars: I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know what he created me for. I noticed that I kept asking the question, you know, I would say, you know what? Just kind of forget about what you're supposed to do and talk to me about. Who you love, who do you have a passion for? You know what? What issues out there in the world kind of break your heart?

[00:44:51] Clint Byars: You know, framing it from the perspective that, you know, Jesus was moved with compassion and he healed them all while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us, for God so loved the world that He gave, right? So love is his motivation toward us, and I just started thinking. Maybe, maybe people are, are getting the cart before the horse and they're trying to figure out what they're supposed to do and they haven't really determined who they want to affect, you know?

[00:45:18] Clint Byars: So, this, this concept of the, who defines the what, when it comes to seeking what you're calling and your assignments. From the Lord are, spend some time thinking about, you know, who, who do you, who do you love? Who do you have a passion for? When you, you know, is it, is it single mothers? Is it the elderly?

[00:45:42] Clint Byars: Is it children in Belize that don't have access to education or discipleship resources? You know, what is it? What, what is it? Who out there breaks your heart? When you find, you just find yourself thinking about, man, I just, you know, I really can't believe that people live in this kind of situation. It's like, okay, you've identified, you know, in marketing, 'cause I've run businesses, and it's like you have to define your target audience and marketing.

[00:46:07] Clint Byars: It's like, okay, who are we after? It's kind of the same. And, and what I've found is when you start. Kind of setting people free from the obligation of doing something for God. And you frame it in terms of, well, who do you want to love? Who? Who? Who out there do you want to help alleviate their suffering?

[00:46:27] Clint Byars: You wanna minister to them, you wanna help meet their basic needs. You wanna help them know who God really is, who, who are those people? And it, it's interesting that light bulbs start to go off and, and kind of religious oblig, obligatory thinking goes kind of out the window and people just start to feel like, oh, well, yeah, I just, I just want this particular type of person to know that God loves them.

[00:46:54] Clint Byars: In order to do that, I, I need this kind of training. I need this kind of resource. I need this kind of support. You know, so it's like then the who, you can reverse engineer everything you gotta do to be equipped to minister to that people group. So that, so I don't know if that answers your question, but that's, that's where my mind went, you know, when, when you talked about the next phase, past some of the healing that people step into.

[00:47:23] Amanda: No, that's so good. I love that. Who do you love? Because you're putting the purpose before the action and that changes everything. Yeah, because if you have action without purpose, it will become just that action after action after action. But then , that's how people get burnt out very quickly.

[00:47:40] Amanda: Right. When even though what they're doing may be good, but they're not, there's a lack of that, that reasoning , that, , love , as you stated. Mm, yeah.

[00:47:49] Clint Byars: Yeah.

[00:47:50] Dan: So much gold here in this conversation. Yeah. And we wanna make sure we get, our listeners connecting with you as well.

[00:47:56] Dan: But before we do that, we wanna come back up for air here. All right? And jump into , our fun round here.

[00:48:02] Clint Byars: Okay.

[00:48:02] Clint Byars: Let's do it.

[00:48:04] Dan: Alright, cool. Alright. So the first one here be careful, Clint. This is, this is deep here. When you get up in the morning, is it, is it coffee or quiet time First? Clint

[00:48:16] Clint Byars: Coffee while it's quiet.

[00:48:23] Dan: Coffee while it's quiet.

[00:48:24] Amanda: I think all the parents out there can especially appreciate that answer.

[00:48:29] Clint Byars: Yeah, yeah,

[00:48:31] Dan: absolutely. All right. Second one. All right. You ready?

[00:48:36] Clint Byars: I'm ready.

[00:48:39] Dan: Buckeyes are dogs.

[00:48:41] Clint Byars: Are you kidding me? Go dogs. I mean, I'm a true Georgian. I was born in Atlanta. I went to University of Georgia. My, I met my wife in Athens, so go dogs.

[00:48:59] Dan: Oh man. , , The host of the show are from, from Ohio. Man. , We're Buckeyes here. I don't know.

[00:49:04] Clint Byars: Well, it's a good, it's a good rivalry. I mean, you know, it's always a, it's always a good battle. We don't get to play you guys much, but anytime you come across our schedule, I, I get a little bit nervous 'cause it's a good program up there.

[00:49:20] Dan: You know, I'll never forget, I think it was we were playing Georgia right on the on the New Year's. . They kicked the field goal and they missed a field goal. You, you remember this game? Yeah.

[00:49:27] Clint Byars: Yeah.

[00:49:29] Dan: Oh,

[00:49:29] Clint Byars: that was Blankenship.

[00:49:30] Clint Byars: I think Blankenship. Kicker that a bad year, gold that whole year, and yeah. Ugh, that's almost as bad as, so I'm a, unfortunately, I'm a Atlanta Falcons fan too, you know? So I know what heartbreak is like, and people love to remind me about the 28 to three lead we had in the Super Bowl in the third quarter, and then Tom Brady pulls a miracle out of the hat.

[00:49:57] Clint Byars: Oh. You know, moments like that are painful.

[00:49:59] Dan: I remember that game too. I do. I didn't believe what I saw either, but

[00:50:03] Clint Byars: it still hurts.

[00:50:06] Dan: Hey, and one more question here for you, because I wanna circle back to, to your new book. Hey, if readers could remember just 3, 4, 5 words from your book, what would you want those to be?

[00:50:18] Clint Byars: Hmm. I would say God deeply cares for you. He's a good father and he wants to live life with you so that you can experience what it's like to be his child.

[00:50:36] Dan: So well said. So Clint, how can our listeners connect with you? What website? What are your social media handles? Where can they get your books?

[00:50:45] Clint Byars: Yeah, the, the best way is my website, clint byers.com. My YouTube channel. It's just, you know, you can search my name, but the website has all of the stuff on there.

[00:50:55] Clint Byars: Most everything is for free. And I always tell people, you know, if there's a resource that you would like. We can't necessarily always email a hard copy. We do that quite a bit actually. But if there's anything that anybody wants, any of these books, we're happy to provide them for free. We have support in our ministry that empowers us to do that.

[00:51:15] Clint Byars: And I'll, I'll say again to you if there's a way that you wanna make these resources available through whatever your outlets are, I'm happy to send those to you guys and, you know, you guys can distribute those.

[00:51:27] Amanda: Awesome. Thank you,

[00:51:29] Dan: Clint. What an honor to have you on the show. Listeners, as always, will have those links and resources, in the show notes.

[00:51:35] Dan: Clint, we just, we thank you for being faithful to the mission that God has called to you to, coaching counseling and pastoring those that he leaves to you. And so, Lord, . We speak blessing over Clint what he's called to do in these next seasons. Lord, we thank you for fruit, Lord. Your name, amen, Clint.

[00:51:51] Clint Byars: Amen.

[00:51:51] Dan: We'll be following your journey.

[00:51:53] Clint Byars: Well, I enjoyed the chat. Thanks for having me on.

[00:51:54] Clint Byars: Good to reconnect with you guys, and I'm gonna go look into what you're doing down there. 'cause you know, I, I love mission's work and so I'm, I'm, you know, I'll be doing some research. You'll, you'll hear, you'll hear from me a little bit more.

[00:52:06] Dan: Amen.

[00:52:06] Speaker 2: Right. Thanks for joining us today on the Mission Life Podcast. You enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss out on future conversations. And don't forget to share this episode with your friends, family, or anyone you think will be blessed by it. We also wanna invite you to check out our free 31 Day Devotional Living and Mission, all life designed to help you step forward into the purpose he has for you.

[00:52:26] Speaker 2: Just click the link below to get your copy today. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next time on The Mission of Life Podcast.