Kyle, how are you mate?

No, going really well.

Thanks, Hayme

and Maddy.

Thanks for

having me on.

Finally.

No, no dramas, mate.

It's been a bit

of a journey.

We all seem to be busy

people that, can't get

our diaries to align.

Yeah.

Bit of travel, mate.

Not all of us get

to go to Bali.

Hey.

It wasn't a

holiday, Maddy.

I got, diarrhoea and

gastro and influenza

and ended up in

Coota Hospital,

so I've definitely

had better, better

holidays than that one.

That sounds shit.

If I was to end up

in any hospital,

it wouldn't be the

Coota Hospital if

I had a choice.

In my, in my

was the recommended

one, like we, the

missus obviously,

she's a health expert

so she googled them

all and she's like,

Carl, this is the

one we're going to.

So I did what

I was told.

don't you hate that?

Like you've worked for

so long and then you're

like super pumpered

just to turn your

brain off for a week.

And then you

spend more time

recovering.

It's always the way

though, like, I think

us as builders, like,

you're like, cool I've

got a holiday in three

months time, I'm going

to work every weekend

and I'm going to burn,

burn the candle before

I go so when I go

away I've earned it.

And then you're so

burnt out by the time

you get there, you're

fucked and you end

up getting sick and

you don't have the

holiday you want.

how often do you

guys take holidays

just out of interest?

we shut down from

like the 22nd of

December through to

about the 13th or

14th or 15th of Jan.

And then the guys

will have a random

week or so during the

year, just randomly.

There's not another

designated shutdown

other than Christmas.

And we've also got

the standard 20.

I want to try and

encourage people

to take Like I want

to do a company

shutdown mid year

just to break a stop.

But I encourage

everyone to try

to take their four

weeks in the middle

of like July, get

overseas, take it easy.

I love that this is

just totally going

down the rabbit hole

already, but I'll,

I'll let's take three

to four weeks off over

Chrissy and then we

actually have a, , a

company shut down in

September and that's

coming up in a month.

So I take a week off

with the family and

everyone else takes a

week off and I don't

have any of that noise

floating around my head

knowing that, you know,

people are on site or

anything like that.

And it works

out really well.

I'm on them.

Everyone comes back

and fresh for the push

towards Christmas.

So we do a shutdown

and then a three to

four weeks shut down

at Christmas time.

That's

good.

I like

usually, I usually try

to get away at least

four weeks in the

middle of the year.

Like last year, I

went to Europe for

six weeks to try to

just get a huge break.

Look, granted, I

don't have kids yet

or anything like that,

but I feel it's so

important to take that

break in the middle of

the year and just stop,

refresh, Take it easy.

Once I'm overseas,

I shut off.

Like, I've got an

awesome team that

can run stuff.

think we need to sort

of start looking at

industry differently

and take your break.

At the risk of

trying to give this

podcast episode a

bit of structure.

Hey Kyle, uh, for those

that, don't know you.

Do you reckon you could

just give the listeners

a quick intro of who

you are, what you do?

Because you, you're

a busy young 30 year

old that I envy the

30 year old energy.

I've said this a lot

of times, but you

got, you got a lot

of stuff going on.

Yeah, give everyone a

bit of an insight as to

Yeah, so, Kyle Zanetto,

Tasmanian , building

business owner, so.

We just ticked over

seven years for

Zanetto Builders.

I've hit 31 years old,

coming up on 32 in

December this year.

So definitely over

the hump and the

old body's starting

to feel it, but the

mind's still flying

around like a blowfly,

which is beautiful.

But yeah, we pushed

into the custom

home space early on.

And got surrounded

by a really awesome

group of builders here

in Tasmania, a lot

of my really close

friends and we, built

a brand based on hard

work and a love and

passion for just being

outside working hard

together as a group.

And then we obviously

educated ourselves.

Started following

blokes like yourself

on social media and

thought, all right,

it's not about just

building homes and

getting a tan and turn

out the techno and

drinking energy drinks.

Like we can actually

make something of

this and deliver a

client experience

and a quality home

that we can actually

walk away from.

We know is going

to stand there.

So yeah, that's

a short snapshot.

And we'll see

builders is expanding

to three locations

across Tasmania now,

and we've recently

kicked off a future

builder platform.

Uh, Luke Davies,

myself and Maddy Long

from Tassie Visuals.

So that's been an

18 month venture,

which has just

come to fruition,

, kicked off in July.

So yeah, something

really exciting and

starting to give back

to the community,

which is great.

when you said sort

of like you sort

of saw what people

are doing on social

media and there was

something more, had

you always searched

for that something

more and not known or

it was a classic case

you just didn't know

what you didn't know?

Right.

Nah, for me, a

builder was turning

up the site, working

from sun up till sun

down hard and just

building as per plan.

Like there was no

additional education.

There was no additional

business education.

It was just go and work

hard and see how much

money you could make.

Yeah,

just flick a switch

overnight and be

like, I'm going to do

something about it?

Or was there this, um,

I should do something,

should do something,

I'm going to try this.

Like, how did

that change come?

I think obviously

me personally, I get

addicted to things,

not drugs, just work.

, and obviously

liked work a lot.

So burnout was probably

the first thing

that, or which I had

a couple of times.

It probably

straightened me

out in, okay, now

I've got to set up

and run a business

and build a team.

Like you can't

do everything.

Otherwise you're going

to have areas of your

life, which are going

to fail, relationship,

health, et cetera.

And then, yeah,

probably six, seven

years ago is when I

think Instagram really

started to take shape.

And that's when.

That information

to better look at

what other people

were doing, who were

obviously better than

I was at the time

and understand why

they were doing it.

And then you kind

of just go on this

rabbit hole and

you follow Hamish,

then you'll follow

Matt, then you'll

follow someone else.

Then you've just

constantly got this

feed of knowledge

getting poured in

front of you and

you go, cool, this

is where it's gone.

I've got to

get on board.

it doesn't

happen overnight.

And I think sometimes

you get caught in

this thing where

it's like, oh, I

need to do it now.

Like, I didn't,

that change is all

coming tomorrow.

It's a gradual change.

It probably took you,

what, two, three years

to get from that,

mindset shift to your

thinking of where

you are right now.

Yeah, definitely.

I think it, my first

four years in business,

I got through from hard

work and then I learned

that, all right, a

business isn't about

just working hard.

It's about

understanding the

financials, the team,

the right clients

to work with, how

to price a job, how

to run a business.

And that's, that's

when I probably

started learning

about the business.

Yeah.

That third, fourth

year, which was

kind of forced upon

me through a loss.

, which was COVID year

2020, I lost 350, 000.

And then I was like,

well, good builder

can't run a business.

And I was like,

okay, now I've got

to make a change.

And I think it's the

same, like you don't

really invest in

something until you

lose something else.

And you go, okay, now

I need to change the

path direction a bit.

where you are now in

your business, you're

kind of focusing on,

I guess, the more

high performance space

and healthy homes,

and I guess that

experience that you're

trying to provide

for your customers,

but also your,

your team as well.

Do you think you

would have got

there without those

influences around you?

And I'm not saying, my

account specifically

or Matt account

specifically, but

forget about Instagram

for a second, do

you think you would

have found that do

you ever think you

would have naturally?

Like reach that base

that you're at now.

I think so.

I think it would have

just taken longer.

I think, , people

that are passionate

about what they do

will invest in making

themselves better.

It's like, back in the

day when I used to love

and do bodybuilding,

I'd be on YouTube

watching every night.

So how to perfect

my technique or eat

properly or whatever.

It's if you're

passionate about

something, you're

gonna invest in

the education.

And we went on

a good learning

path, obviously was

surrounded by some

really good blokes

like Sean and obviously

Maddie and that now

who, uh, Unbelievable

when it comes to

self development

and building better

homes, so I think

it's a combination of

surrounding yourself

with people that are

going in the same

direction to help lift

you up quicker, and

then obviously reaching

out and looking to

what people are doing

outside of your state

in areas that might be

a bit more advanced in

construction, because

we're the end of the

line down here, apart

from Antarctica.

those couple of people

that you talked about,

I know quite well, so

that's Sean from Tassie

Builders blog and,

, Mog Build to, uh, Matt

O'Grady who works for

you too, two absolute

ripper human beings.

did those two boys

work for you as

apprentices to start

and then move through?

Nah, so I think Sean

come on board, I think

it was another six

weeks, I was my first

year Zenetto Builders.

I actually started

Zenetto Builders after

a four month bender

in Europe, got back,

then I did a front

flip, snapped my leg,

shut my business down

for like 12 weeks,

fired it back up.

And then I was getting

my hair cut by Sean's

partner at the time.

And I just

kept nagging.

I was like, got to

get him to , come work

with me, all this.

And then he ended

up jumping ship.

, and that was a little

two unit development,

which was the first one

I ever did, Not knowing

what I know now is,

read the fucking soil

report, we hit 40, 000

worth of rock, and I'd

lost before I started,

so, on that job, I

was in the 20 tonner

on the breaker, then

I was doing all the

tiling, I was laying

all the block work,

and it was just like,

do everything I could

with my sister helping

me on the weekend,

because we went halves

in it, and we still

come out and lost 40

or It was fun, but it

was a learning curve.

that was the

development or was

that for, that was

not for a client?

That was just for

me and my sister.

Yeah.

So that was, that

was when Sean come on

board and me and Mog,

we actually knew each

other from high school.

He was a grade below

me at Riverside.

And we used to like

surf and bodyboard

and session all that

a bit back in the day.

Um, that was between

like 15 and 19,

drink a few tins

and everything.

And then we probably

disconnected for six

or seven years and then

we got back in touch.

, and then yeah, Matt

come on board probably

nearly a couple

of years ago now.

It's been unbelievable.

And so I know Matt's

got his own story and I

reckon he'd be a really

great person to, , have

on the show one day.

So like just Matt,

if you're listening,

, reach out cause

we can get you on.

Cause you've got a

really good story

as well, where you

kind of lost your

passion and then got

your passion again.

That's really

great to say.

you're an

incredibly ambitious

person, right?

I don't think anyone

can deny that.

But iN my experience,

you know, being maybe

a little bit older,

a little bit wiser,

like there's only so

long that you can keep

that, candle burning

from both sides.

, and I think for me,

like the grounding

of having a family

and kids and stuff

really kind of

shifted my focus

to, I guess, what's

really important.

And I've said to you

this a number of times,

like I envy,, the young

30 let's just fuck it.

Let's have a crack.

Like I, I actually get

so inspired by watching

you do what you do.

, but I want to talk

to talk about burnout

cause it's actually

a really massive

thing and I know

you went pretty low

there for a while.

And would you be

open to maybe talking

to the listeners

about what you went

through and I guess

how you kind of got

yourself out of that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's pretty deep

and dark story.

Some to be honest.

So I've probably

been through.

Three or so series

of severe burnout

in my life.

the worst section of my

life was probably 2020.

, I was building my first

house, which was the

big black house, the

headquarters we called.

, yeah, I was doing

a bodybuilding

competition.

So at the time I

was up at three 30,

I was eating, I was

going to the gym and

training, then I'd go

to work from say six

30 or seven to four

30 in the afternoon,

then I'd eat.

Then I'd go to the

gym from five 30 to

seven, then I'd go

home and I'd eat.

And then I'd get on

the computer too.

10 o'clock, then

I'd eat and then

I'll go back to bed.

So I'd probably

get me five hours

of sleep a night.

, had a partner

at the time.

I was also in

competitive

bodybuilding.

So I was taking

injectable steroids,

oral steroids.

I was literally just

going flat out and then

I was just crashing

when I went to sleep

and I was so focused

on bodybuilding and

my competitive nature,

wanting to be the best

and obviously trying

to run the business.

I was still the

estimator, the guy on

site running the job.

The bookkeeper, all

that kind of stuff

that my personal

life just absolutely

fell to pieces.

, and then for me,

when I was in such

a burnout and a low

phase, the only way

I could kind of get

some dopamine was to

either go out and hit

the sesh or get the

piss or do something

that wasn't good.

And I ended up cheating

on my partner at the

time, which was a

huge mistake and the

wrong thing to do.

And that's when my

life just spiraled

out of control.

And, , yeah, that's it.

I think I told the

story on another

podcast, but that

night, obviously it

happened, I rang a

few people and told

them what had happened

and then I ended up

on Sean's doorstep

cause he was about

five minutes from me.

I just balled

up and cried.

Like I was like

ready to just top

myself and up just

getting in the car.

Went to the bottle up

the road, got a six

pack of beer, pack of

smokes, and I drove to

St Helens, which was

two hours away, at like

nine or ten o'clock at

night, and just spent

the whole time just,

yeah, literally just

drinking, smoking, and

crying, just turned

my phone off, didn't

want anyone to know

where I was, and yeah,

I like, I had a few

points on that drive

where I was just like

getting ready to line

a tree up pretty well.

Thanks for

sharing that.

Nah, take your

time dude.

It's awesome that

you can be so honest.

you look back where

you are now, well

where you got to now,

like you don't get

there without going

through that probably.

Is that fair to say?

Yeah, and actually

owning it too.

Like, you can go and do

something like that in

life, but to actually

own it and go around

to people and apologize

and try and make up is

a really long process.

Like when I got to

St Helens that night,

people were obviously

worried about me.

And at about 11

o'clock that night,

Sean and Olivia, one

of my good friends,

actually turned up.

At St Helens, like

they knew where I was

going and they drove

all the way there, took

the next day off work.

And yeah, we just

spent like the next

day, we got out for

brekkie, went to the

beach, all that stuff.

And then it was

obviously the fallout

that I had to try and

deal with from that.

So I think I was

down there for a day.

I came back to

Launceston, , my

partner clean the

house out, , the

dogs were gone,

everything was taken.

So I went and stayed

at a mate's place

for a few nights and

then another fucked

up thing happened.

I went back to check

on my house and my

house had been broken

into, had all my guns

stolen, everything.

So whether that was

a bit of fallout from

what had happened,

I'm not too sure.

but then I got into

a point where I

couldn't like face.

got yourself in a

I just got real

bad anxiety, so I

couldn't go to my

office, I couldn't

talk to my family.

If I went into a coffee

shop, I'd just feel

like all the eyes

were on you, like

because of a mistake.

But looking back

now, no, no one

cared externally.

It was just kind

of this internal

pressure you put on

yourself because you're

kind of ashamed of

the way you acted.

, and yeah, like.

At that point in

my life, I was

drinking of a night.

I was eating two to

three, sleeping tablets

at like 10 o'clock at

night, just to try and

knock myself out to get

a bit of sleep because

my brain was literally

just going in circles.

And yeah, it probably

took me three or four

weeks to kind of get

out of that cycle, go

and catch up with my

dad for a talk, talk

to my mom again, get

the confidence to

go back up and sit

in the office, back

at our workshop.

And then I just had

to try and rebuild

myself, which for

me, honestly, started

with David Goggins.

I'd listen to him.

I'd get up at

five o'clock.

I'd go and run five

to 10 kilometers of

a morning and I'd use

like physical exercise

to punish myself, like

just a pure exhaustion.

and then I, I just

slowly rebuilt, I

guess I just kind

of worked on myself,

listened to a lot of,

Lot of motivational

videos, , went to

see therapists,

did like emotional

freedom tapping, did

inner child work.

And yeah, actually

invest in myself rather

than my whole life.

All I've done is just

invest in making my

business better and

making my physical

self better through

my ambition to build

a successful business.

And yeah, the

bodybuilding habit

that I had as well.

So

Yeah, that

yeah, that was probably

the turning point

in my life that I

needed to happen.

And it's probably

the anchor to my

success as well.

Like whenever I look

back now, I'm like,

I literally have on

a spreadsheet next to

me here, I've got my

goals for the week,

the month, the year,

five years, 10 years.

And at the top of

it, I've got my

starting line was this

date back in 2020.

This is how I

felt on that date.

And so it's like

that reminder to look

back and say, cool,

you've come this far.

holy shit, mate.

thanks for sharing

all of that, mate.

And, thanks for

being so vulnerable.

obviously you're

a, pretty loud and

proud person, you

know, on the outset.

But I think, you

know, showing some

vulnerability, I think

it's going to mean a

lot to a lot of people.

So, I've just taken

a bunch of notes as

you were talking, man.

of the things took

out of that is that,

you know, people

care about you.

And everybody

listening to this.

There are people

out there who

care about you.

, and I know there are

times when You may not

think that's the case,

and I think driving

down that road, mate,

on the way down to St

Helens, you probably

didn't think that

anyone gave a shit

about you, but then

the fact that, two of

your close friends, you

know, You know rocked

up that next day to be

there to support you

like really shows I

guess the value that

you have Well the value

that you that represent

in this world to all

these people around

you and I think that

, if you are ever going

through these, times

in your life Just know

that there are people

out there that actually

fucking care about you.

and again I'm, no

fucking psychologist

here but some of

the things that you

were talking about

then kind of really

Resonated with me when

I got panic attacks

So it kind of sounds

like there were times

there when, you know,

you were experiencing

those panic attacks.

And it's probably

really relevant

that we had Julie on

the future builder

podcast, session the

other day where she

was talking about box

breathing and, and,

and all that kind of

stuff, because I know

actually how much that

helps me when I'm in

a higher alert stage.

But yeah, man, I

don't know where

I'm going with this.

I just want to say

thank you for sharing

all that because

it's, it's huge.

Thank you.

was exactly like

the conversation we

had on that call.

Like, if you see me

on Instagram, that's

the confident, he's

good on camera, like

everything's , in

line kind of shit.

But if I've got to do

any public speaking

or talk, I'm anxious,

I've got sweaty

hands, I'm dizzy.

I'm usually like

freaking the fuck out,

overthinking what I'm

going to say 50 times

in my head before

I've got to say it.

And yeah, like

the social media

world's great, but.

Most of the time

it's bullshit.

Like it is there

because it's only the

best of what you see.

And that's why I like

jumping on podcasts

and I like what you

talk about, Maddie

and Hamish, about not

just always talking

about the good shit,

but talk about the

bad shit cause that's

the people that

everyone know is real.

got one question.

I, and I want to go

back to that night

where you, your

two friends sort of

come and got you.

Yeah.

was that like day

one of the up,

like, was that

No, that was, that

was like the nuclear

bomber just erupted.

Like,

So next day is day one

of like, I'm getting

like, that was like,

I'm doing something

tomorrow sort of thing.

Nah, to be honest,

I was in a hole

for probably a

month after that.

Like a depressive hole

with like, yeah, a

bit of like feeling

ashamed and not been

able to face the world.

And then it's like,

all right, I went

through that probably

self pity stage is the

best way to put it.

Just you've been

a miserable cunt,

just feeling

sorry for myself.

And then you realize

you've obviously

got to pull

yourself out of it.

And then as everyone

says, like the worst

thing that ever

happens in your life is

typically the fuel that

will keep you going.

And do you, and do

you look back at

that time now I don't

know if this is the

way to write it.

Are you

grateful for it?

Like, do you think you

get where you

are now for that?

Yeah.

100%.

I still, still like,

I'm embarrassed about

what I did at the

time, but I would never

take it back because

it's made me who I am.

So it's like, okay,

it's the whole

butterfly effect thing.

If you didn't step

left instead of right,

would the rest of

your life have been

the same way it is?

So, I take everything

as It was meant to

happen, as bad as

that might sound.

This is exactly

the path I was

supposed to walk.

And you said this is

the third time, was

this the third time

you've had bad burnout?

that was probably

the second.

So the first one

was probably,

yeah, four or five

months before that.

And the reasons that

I knew I was in such

a depressive state

is I couldn't smile

or I couldn't laugh.

Like I'd literally go

a week where you've

just got no, like,

sense of humor or

happiness in life.

And then I'd go out

and my dopamine hit

would be to get on

the piss or, Go out

and party and I'd

switch from being flat

to just being 200%.

like one instance.

I remember driving

through Launceston.

I was sitting in the

car with my partner

and for no reason

whatsoever, I just

burst out into tears.

I was like, I just

can't hold it in.

Like, you know, when

you're so burnt out,

you've just got to go

blah, like I'm fucked.

And that was just

like the exhaustion

about just burning

that candle and

not fulfilling

the cup at all.

And you just, you're

running on zero and

you just keep running

zero and just keep

pushing and pushing.

And that's when

you've just got a

crack at some point.

So probably where

I'm leading with this

question is like,

how do you make sure

that you don't burn

out again or limit

that going forward?

It's a good question.

it's something that's

really easy to slip

back into old habits,

but over the last

two or three years,

I've really worked on

trying to balance my

life and I still still

do work quite a lot.

But I make sure that

I block my days out

so that I don't forget

about the things like

spending time with

my partner, kicking

the soccer ball for

my dog, going to the

beach and getting

the sand between my

toes, or flicking a

fishing rod just with

zero distractions.

That's when you take

the things that,

energize you out of

your life, and you

only do the things

that suck it out.

you end up just going

down that spiral.

because you just said

that you work a lot and

now you've also said

that the Instagram,

like the difference

between what you

people see when you're,

you're loud and you're

having fun on social

media compared to like

what real life is.

I feel like that is

one of the biggest

misconceptions that

people wanting to

in this industry.

They just see this, oh,

it's an amazing world

and it's so great.

And look at you,

you drive around

having a latte,

sitting in the office

recording a podcast.

There's a way more

to it than that.

That's what you

see on the facade.

Yeah, that's it mate.

And yeah, the 2020

year when we lost

350k, Like that was a

year that our social

media started to boom

and everything looked

amazing, but we lost

the most amount of

money I don't know

like you're not going

to put your worst on

social media, are you?

Like that's what

it's there for.

It's about everyone

putting their

best foot forward

So I've been toying

with that idea.

know you have.

I've been following.

Yeah, but like, I think

sometimes we need to

make this industry,

like the issue we have

with the industry is

it's not realistic.

one of the most

successful posts that

I have ever had on

Instagram it was the

post where I said

that I had anxiety.

I feel it was almost

like the post that

I needed to get out

there because at the

time I was feeling,

really hemmed in, I was

getting panic attacks.

I was just like, I

almost need to tell

people that this

is what I'm going

through because I

can't keep up this

facade for much longer.

And it was almost as

if it was just this

cathartic exercise

that just allowed me

to just express how I

was feeling the support

that I got back from

it was incredible.

So, lesson that I

learned from that is

people actually want to

say that you're human.

And, you know, I

think one of the

biggest motivations

for me about doing

this podcast with

Matt is that,

you get to spend

time with me.

just get to spend time

with Matt or more time

with Matt and, I've had

the opportunity to be

sad and to cry and to

share, wins and losses

and stuff like that in,

in what I feel is like

a safe environment.

I, I wonder if I kind

of talked about the

same thing on my social

media that there might

be a bit of a backlash

from it, but, it's

interesting.

clients don't want to

see all the negative

stuff, like they don't

want to know about

the day to day but

then at the same time

it's like negative

stuff sells, like

shit canning something

else like the steel

industry sells, but

like that, like, that's

the unfortunate thing.

I feel that people get

their builder's license

or they're looking

at getting their

builder's license.

So they're looking

at running a plumbing

company or whatever,

and they, Oh, I get

an Instagram account.

And all of a sudden

it's fine and dandy.

Like social media

is marketing.

It's not real life.

It's fishing, mate.

You throw a lure out,

and you throw the

lure out for the fish

you want to catch.

and I probably assume

for both of you,

it's your biggest

means of, , clients

coming towards you,

Do you know what

is interesting

though, Matt?

like we've had a few

meetings recently with

clients and obviously

they've seen that we

do doing this podcast.

I would say almost

a hundred percent of

the people that I've

had meetings with

in the past, Five to

six weeks and listen

to the podcast.

So there is an

interest from,

potential clients

wanting to hear, , not

wanting to just say

the pretty pictures,

but actually want to

get to know us , on

a different level.

Like you've obviously

gone through some

shit and, almost

hit rock bottom and,

someone who's got

to know you over the

past three to four

years, I'm incredibly

grateful that, you

know, you decided to

push through that.

So fucking good on you.

how has your

life changed now?

And I know we kind of

touched on it before.

What is your new.

Motivation.

What is your

new purpose?

Before it sounded

like you're out there

just building and,

you know, trying to

build some nice shit.

Like I kind of feel

like your purpose has

changed a little bit.

Yeah, I think up

until I was 26, 27,

I was selfish, like

I was working for

me, for my future,

bodybuilding is a

very solo sport, I was

building this business.

Yes, I had my team who

I loved and I still

love, but I think when

you're that middle

age, like 20 something

year old guy, you're

quite self centered.

, and for me now,

I literally

wrote this down.

This morning I said, my

company vision needs to

be so large that I can

fit the dreams of all

my employees within it.

that is the new brand

for Zanetto builders.

Like, cause I, I

took it really to

heart when I lost

guys like Sean and

that to go and start

their own business.

And I like, I applaud

him and love it for it.

But I was like, I need

to create a business

that I can find these

people like Mog and

Sean and that who

are fucking excellent

at what they do.

But make the win in

Zanetto Builders so

big that they don't

need to go and start

their own thing.

If that's what

they want to do.

This is one of my

questions I was going

to throw at you.

So, I learnt through a

few lessons about like

friends and business

and losing people.

And then it went from

how can I win to how

can everyone win.

like this

double-edged sword.

Like you want them

to succeed, you

want them to try

do their own thing.

You want them to try,

do what you are doing.

You're proud, you're

happy, but you

self, you go like

you're selfish.

You want them to

work with you.

Like you, you can't

win either way really.

You can't, and you've

got to look back at it.

And every time I

like have something

that kind of hurts

me internally now,

I'm like, I'll step

out of you, step into

them and like, think

what would they do?

Or what did you do

back in when you're

in that position

at 23 years old?

Like, I want to start

my own business.

How can I be pissed

off at someone that

wants to go and start

their own business?

What a hypocrite.

So as much as it hurts,

it's like, just step

away from yourself

and think about it.

A bit more laterally.

when you talk about

being selfish, I

feel like to run a

business you have to

be somewhat selfish.

that's not, not in a

negative way either.

Like the selfish can

be like, Hey, I'm

being selfish for us.

yeah.

And you are right.

Like it is, you're

still treading

that fine line and

that's where I'm

trying to find this

happy medium now.

It's like, all right,

if I can have someone

that's been with me for

four or five years, for

example, and they're

thinking about going

and starting their

own business, they

might have a kid, they

might be time poor.

I'm like, all right,

well, you can go and

start your business.

Your next two years,

Your relationship's

gonna fall down.

You're probably going

to make the same

amount of money,

maybe less than you're

on right now, or I

can put you in as

a general manager.

We can go and start

another branch.

I can put you up

to 150, a year

or whatever.

We can add a

bonus structure or

something like that.

And I can provide you

with a life that's

financially stable.

You can build your own

team around you and

you can still work 40

That's the ultimatum

and I'm trying to

find that balance now

of who to find who's

the right avatar for

the business that's

gonna suit that model.

a lot to it I

guess, but yeah,

How big do you

want to get?

big as Ben Hur, nah,

I've actually been

going through this and

I was actually gonna

bring it up on the

conversation today.

I have really found

there's been a

difference from when

I started being on

the tools to running

a business with

under 10 people.

I think I got to 13

when I started stepping

off the tools and then

I got imposter syndrome

within my own business

because I didn't feel

worthy because I was

sitting in front of

a screen all day not

working hard and now

we've got say 25.

And I think after

we went from 15

and I stepped off

site, I started to

lose the connection

that I had with my

mates and my friends

working on site.

And I felt this kind

of tension between us.

And for the last 12

months, we've had a

lot of staff turnover

and it really hurt me

like internally to try

and figure out why.

And then I did quite

a bit of study on like

transition from small

to medium business.

And I've kind of just

come to live with

it now that when you

transition upscale in

business, sometimes

you're going to have

to burn the business

back down and then

rebuild it with people

who can step in.

And you aren't that

builder that's on the

tools in there anymore.

You are that guy

in the office.

And you've got guys

that want to work in a

medium sized business

rather than guys

that want to have.

Three guys on site

all day and then

partying every weekend.

So that probably

diverged a bit off what

we're talking about

with size, but I think

around that 15 to 20

is a maximum size that

I would want to get

in any one division.

And the reason why

I branched into

Hobart and now into

the East coast.

Because if you

get above 15 or

20, you can't keep

that culture tight.

So you're going, you're

going more sort of

like, not franchises,

but, they're total

separate entities.

Is that right?

Now all the same

entity, but I've kind

of gone with a model,

like, all right, like

I said before, like

our company vision

needs to be so big that

I can fit the dreams

of others within it.

So I'm going to open

up two other branches.

I'm going to find two

managers that don't

want to start their own

business, but want to

make enough money and

have the ability to

build their own team,

price their own jobs

and run the business

like it's theirs.

So they get all

the rewards.

financially without

taking on the risk.

then, yeah, we'll

sort of, yeah, like

we've salarized the

roles and then we do

incentives for people

that bring in and then,

yeah, in a couple of

years time, if I want

to step back more

from Zeneto builders,

we'll do that.

We might bring

in some partners.

So, yeah, that's

definitely been a

learning curve with

a growing business.

That's hurt and I've

learned some lessons

and now I think I've

figured out a way to

try and recruit and

onboard the right

people and keep it

like a family rather

than a business.

there's a few things

that you talked about

there about like

wanting to create an

environment where you

can provide growth

and, you know, like

a very clear pathway

for, I guess, ambitious

people, which I 100

percent commend and,

you know, I guess

that's the dream for a,

for a business owner.

, I think the comment

that I'll make

though, is that

I actually think

it's okay if people

decide to move on.

In my opinion, if I

think about me and

I think about you,

Kyle, I think about

Matt, we are a type

of personality who

I think are quite

driven and like to be

in control of their

own destiny in a way.

So I feel like if

you've got someone

within your business

who feels like that's

their pathway, right,

that to do that is

so strong, I kind of

think let them go.

They might come

back, they might

not come back.

, and I think the trick

is then is like leave

that door open if they

do want to come back

because they, you know,

running a business

is fucking hard.

I'm not going to,

sugarcoat any of

that, but I know for

me, I would not have

it any other way.

Would not have

it any other way.

I don't think the three

of us would survive

working for someone.

no, hell no,

no, hell no.

But do you know

what's really

interesting for me?

I'm obviously part of

a couple of different

organizations.

And am a passenger

in a sense to some

of the organizations

I'm involved in, and

it's actually been a

really great personal

growth thing for

me because I'm not

generally used to being

in a space where I

don't, call the shots

a hundred percent.

So I feel it's actually

made me a better leader

in my own business.

Having to have to sit

down and listen to six

other people's opinions

on something and then

actually go to a vote

to make decisions.

And then sometimes my

opinion on something

doesn't get passed.

And actually taking

that on board and being

okay with that, I think

in a way has actually

made me listen better

to the people that

work in my business,

rather than just go,

you know what, this

is the way forward.

So fuck you.

That's what

we're doing.

But I mean, I have the,

you know, fortunate,

situation where I'm

part of a group that

I have a bit of a say

in it, but I also can

come back to Sanctum

Homes and then, , take

the reins and take it

to where I want to go.

But, um, I think,

a mixture of

both is good.

Staff turnover,

mate, people come

and go all the time.

, and I think that's

just something

that we need to.

I guess this except

being a business owner,

I'd love if my current

staff team, if you're

listening that you

guys are here for, for

the next 20 years, it

would make me so happy.

I feel naive sometimes

where you're like,

no, they're never

going to leave.

I think I can

keep them there.

Like, with what you

say, Carl, like,

provide them that

stability to like,

you don't need to

go anywhere else.

I can give you the

same, if not more.

And from my team.

They're awesome.

Like when a client,

he's like, you got,

you did an awesome job.

I'm like, no, no, that

I'm just a puppet.

Like, they're

the ones that did

the awesome job.

Like, I'm just,

I'm literally just

the person that

runs everything and

pulls the strings

to make it work.

Like, they're the

ones that physically

did the work.

so do you think

it's, the fulfilment

you're providing them

through letting them

take the reins and

deliver the project

and rewarding them

that keeps them there?

Or is there?

you're acquiring

the right cut or

the right employee

from the start?

Like is it

you're a track

Writing, writing, both.

So, write employee

at the start.

And I also want

to understand what

motivates you.

So, not everyone's

motivated by money.

some people want to

work every weekend.

Some people, not

because they want

the money because

they love it.

Like, some people

want to do four days.

They don't, yeah, like

everyone's different.

I think it's fine.

One, finding the

motivation and two,

like, you just got

to give some people a

chance that you don't

have to be awesome at

what you do, but you

can be trained to be

awesome at what you Do

I also think that

most of the time

people just like to

be heard that they're

doing a good job.

And I think it's

not always about the

money just to go,

Hey, you know what?

That thing that

you did over there.

Fuck yeah.

That's awesome.

I don't think I've

ever had a crack

really at my team ever.

I'm pretty like,

fuck, it's like,

whatever happened,

what's the solution?

Let's just fix it.

Like shit happens.

What's the, there's

no point pissing

them off and yelling

and screaming.

Cause I've worked

for that person.

And then you're

out and you do not

want to be there.

And that culture

sucks fucking dick.

Like,

And you've got to

work for one of

those people in your

life, don't you?

Like, I think

we all had that

boss growing up.

actively left

when I finished my

apprenticeship, I

went and worked for

someone to learn how

not to treat people,

knowing that it

was going to suck.

Because I wanted

to make sure that

I will not treat

someone that way.

I've got a question

here and it's probably

actually interesting

for both of you.

Cause unfortunately,

nine to five, working

nine to five anymore

is not the norm and