PART TWO

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there and a very warm welcome to season 5 episode 45 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Michaela: I think we really have to be careful with that so that doesn't become another lesson or learning that I can only look after myself as a conditional thing so that I can look after them.

[00:00:16] I deserve to be well

[00:00:16] Michaela: That's the bit that was the permission piece that was missing for me. I got it, I had got as far as that a few years ago, but it took a while before I got to the point where I realized, Oh, it's not just a look after. Myself, so I can be a better mother. I look after myself because I deserve to be well. In itself, without any achievement of who I am as a parent, who I am as a business owner, who I am as a friend.

[00:00:38] Just, I deserve to be well. Full stop. And that was the final piece that needed to click in. And I wrote about it in my book that came out three years ago. I wrote it because I thought it, and intellectually I was there, but I didn't quite feel it.

[00:00:55] Ross: Peasoopers, here's the second part of my chat with Michaela Thomas. Michaela is a Senior Clinical Psychologist, CBT Psychotherapist, Author, Award Winning Podcaster and Corporate Speaker.

[00:01:07] Michaela is currently one of eight nominees for the Inspirational Modern Woman of the Year Award. I've voted already and if you like what you hear, you can vote too via the link in the show notes.

[00:01:18] One of her most recent initiatives is that she's facilitating and curating a group coaching program called Burn Bright. This is a transformational group coaching program for the ambitious working woman who needs to be nicer to herself and calm the overwhelm. And if that sounds interesting, listen on.

[00:01:35] Michaela is open about her life experience, and how she supports others. And you'll find more details of the Burn Bright program in the show notes. In this episode, you'll hear about the evolution of Michaela's practice as a psychologist, including her training in Sweden, the dark side of caring for others, And the inner work she's undertaken to realize that she matters too.

[00:01:56] You'll also hear about when she discovered ACT, and how she uses her [00:02:00] extensive, evidence based toolkit in her client work. Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hello! Welcome! Great to have you on board. we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

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[00:02:32] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk, because reviews are in for our last episode, which was part one of our chat with Michaela.

[00:02:38] Claire Stafford on Facebook said, Listen to this on my dog walk today. Loved Michaela's take on showing up authentically and how she balances her personal and professional self whilst being true to herself and those around her.

[00:02:51] Bring on part two. A lot longer to wait now, Claire. Now, thanks to Claire and everyone who listened, rated, and reviewed that episode with Michaela. And if you haven't heard already, all those reviews that are read out will receive a few PeopleSoup bookmarks, a new design for a new year.

[00:03:08] So please get your reviews coming in. The bookmarks will be dispatched by our Global Distribution Center, which is led by my dad, Big G in the Northeast Powerhouse. So for now, get a brew on, and have a listen to part two of my chat with Michaela Thomas.

[00:03:27] I wonder if I could change text slightly. We've heard a little bit about your background, the details from my research department, but I wonder if you could tell us a bit more, expand on how you've got to where you've got to in your life today, and maybe some pivotal moments along the way.

[00:03:43] And

[00:03:50] Michaela: age eight that I was meant to look after others. You know, my best friend, who's still my best friend in Sweden, were her parents were going through a [00:04:00] divorce and I saw her suffer and I could feel it.

[00:04:03] And I still remember when I look back at those memories, the. The salient pieces of those memories is how much I felt her emotion and how I felt for her. So we took her in for a week, she was having a hard time and fast forward to today when we're, you know, 40 year old women with a couple of kids each.

[00:04:20] We were then both, you know, realizing we both ADHD within the same year of each other. So that's kind of a twinning of a lifetime that we've been going through life together. We've been to the same classes. We moved towns twice, moving to the same towns. Not because of each other, but because our paths were sort of just running alongside in tandem.

[00:04:41] Obviously, I moved countries. She didn't follow. I don't know what's her problem. Um, she's still in Sweden. But that has been sort of a path, not only into my professional career of, you know, getting into the psychologist training when I was 19 in Sweden, but it's also followed who I am as a person. And that's also been the biggest Achilles heel I have.

[00:05:01] it's even leading into the song choice I have for later. So, spoiler alert. that sense of looking after others, being a helper, being a carer, that has been my whole professional path. And it's been a huge part in my personal life too. However As a 40 year old woman, I obviously realise that that has some drawbacks.

[00:05:22] Giving to others and giving to myself

[00:05:22] Michaela: There's a darker side to being a carer, to being someone who facilitates for others. And that is the risk of burnout and people pleasing. So those are two things I've had to be very conscious of. Balancing that compassion flowing out, with compassion flowing in. And I've done a lot of work on myself, I've been to a couple of compassion retreats, I've worked with supervisors like Mary Welford and Chris Irons for years to try to make sure that I keep On that tightrope balance of giving to others and giving to myself.

[00:05:54] I crumbled

[00:05:54] Michaela: And that was a very expensive lesson I learned through my first child being born. [00:06:00] When I crashed into motherhood, coming into madrescens, I really struggled because my child really struggled. And here I was thinking that my sole purpose, well not my sole purpose, but a big part of my purpose is to help others and meet their needs.

[00:06:14] And I couldn't meet my child's. emotional and physical needs. He had lots of allergies, reflux, lots of physical pain, eczema, he was scratching himself red raw every night, he didn't sleep, he was having a really hard time, bless him. And I was then having a really hard time. I think the phrase is, you're only as happy as your saddest child.

[00:06:38] And someone who really feels the pain of others, I crumbled. Absolutely crumbled. So there's a reason why there's five years between my two children. Because it took a long time before I could go at it again. to consider coming into motherhood again. And my second experience It was so different to my first because I'd done a lot of that work on the, the, you know, my inner darkness and not coming to that place again, not depleting myself and my children are happier and healthier because I'm happier and healthier, so balancing that better and that leads not just into sort of how much flow of compassion there is from me to my children versus me to me or how much I receive from others coming in, say from my husband, but it's also how I balance it between My business and my home life.

[00:07:30] I matter too

[00:07:30] Michaela: When I need to take a, take a break away, versus when I think, oh, I'm really passionate about this, and I'm gonna go gung ho on this thing, and I want to work on it. And it's, it's been a very long journey, seven years of really thinking about, I matter. It's not just my children who matter. It's not just my clients or patients who matter.

[00:07:51] I matter too. And when I am well, they are more likely to be well. When I am well, my business is more likely to be well. When I am well, [00:08:00] all is well in the world, in my inner world. And I'm in the best place I've been for many, many years, because it feels like the things are finally slotted into. And my work has then become a lot better.

[00:08:13] my revenue has gone up for my business. my ideas are coming into fruition. Um, it's not just, here's an idea, or that will never work, or second guessing comes in, or imposter syndrome, which I don't really Believe is a syndrome, but you know the common humanity of doubting yourself when you're about to do something stretchy and scary A lot of that has become a lot easier as well because I practice self compassion That means I do a lot of dancing back and forth.

[00:08:40] I lean in, I lean out, I lean in, I lean out I lean in to work. Oh, this is exciting. I want to do that. No, I'm overwhelmed I lean out again, and I take a break. So I hope that that makes sense that this is not You know, like Joe Wicks says, the overnight success that was seven years in the making, that's kind of what it is.

[00:09:00] What you see today, how I show up on social media, that is not what I was 10 years ago. That's not what I was when I was 19 and started studying psychology. That is not who I was when I was 8 and felt I needed to take my best friend home and keep her safe. It's a long journey between being 8 and 40.

[00:09:19] Ross: It takes work, it takes inner work and reflection and spaciousness, it's a word we're going to use a lot I'm sure today, that spaciousness to help you reflect and the courage again to, to make those changes in your life and realize that you are important as well a way to balance this more effectively which then ripples out and impacts on you.

[00:09:42] Everyone and everything in your life.

[00:09:45] Michaela: Yeah, but even softening that kind of narrative there of, you know, look after yourself so that you can look after your children. I think we really have to be careful with that so that doesn't become another lesson or learning that I can only look after myself as a conditional [00:10:00] thing so that I can look after them.

[00:10:02] I deserve to be well

[00:10:02] Michaela: That's the bit that was the permission piece that was missing for me. I got it, I had got as far as that a few years ago, but it took a while before I got to the point where I realized, Oh, it's not just a look after. Myself, so I can be a better mother. I look after myself because I deserve to be well. In itself, without any achievement of who I am as a parent, who I am as a business owner, who I am as a friend.

[00:10:24] Just, I deserve to be well. Full stop. And that was the final piece that needed to click in. And I wrote about it in my book that came out three years ago. I wrote it because I thought it, and intellectually I was there, but I didn't quite feel it. And we know that that head and the heart lag is a very common thing that you might find.

[00:10:45] I think intellectually that of course I deserve to do well, of course I deserve a break. But my work often shows that it's needing that to sink down to the emotional level, the heart level, is the biggest piece of work we do. This is why there's such a rinse and repeat kind of pattern to the work I do with high perfectionistic, high striving women.

[00:11:05] Because they almost have to feel it over and over and over again to feel I deserve to be well, or feel that I'm worthwhile, feel that I'm lovable. These are obviously deeper, deep seated beliefs that take time to shift, if they do shift at all. For some, they never shift, and it's still about, well, I can act as if.

[00:11:23] I am lovable. I can act as if I deserve to be well. And what are the things I would be doing? What are the things I would be doing more of? Well, what are the things I would be inviting into my life as a practice? What would I welcome into my life? If I thought, as a thought experiment, hypothetically, what if I was actually deserving to be well?

[00:11:43] What if I was actually worthwhile? What would I be doing? What would you see me doing? And that's often where we start. That's obviously You've touched upon me being Swedish and training as a CBT therapist, obviously behavior is very important to me. Functional [00:12:00] contextual behavior is how I roll. I did train in CBT in Sweden, but Sweden is very acting, as you know, it's very third wave CBT, and then I came to the UK.

[00:12:11] And, you know, bureaucracy. So lovely, lovely, isn't it? So it took me two years to get my psychologist accreditation, recognized, even though I was a fully qualified clinical psychologist when I came from Sweden. So I had to start at the bottom of the ladder again. And I was a trainee CBT therapist who already had full qualifications in CBT.

[00:12:31] But At the time, I thought it was frustrating, and in hindsight, I think it was a beautiful gift because they allowed me to come into a new country, do doing therapy in English, which is not my native tongue, and got to be trainee staters for it. So I got slightly easier cases, I got It's a great way to help me go through that transition of coming into a new country.

[00:12:56] So there is a lot of CBT flowing through my veins, but they've always been a lot more third wave. Always been a lot more act. And obviously, Uh, about a decade or so ago, I added CFT to my bow as well. It might have been 12 years, maybe. So, compassion focused therapy is also something I practice a lot. And both of those are very hard to do for others if you don't do for yourself.

[00:13:25] Ross: Gosh, I couldn't agree more. Hard to do for others if we don't do them for ourselves. It makes us better therapists, coaches, facilitators. And for me, it's kind of common sense. If I'm training people in the skills and approaches of ACT, I need to be using that on myself first of all. But then I need to be role modeling it in the way I show up. But I love what you said a moment ago, what would it be like if I acted as if, just, just reflect on that piece, would it be [00:14:00] like if I acted as if I deserved to be well? I think that's just so powerful, what would I be doing?

[00:14:07] I'm too much and I'm not enough

[00:14:07] Michaela: Hmm. Or not doing. It's the doing less of the, what we would think of as, you know, excesses and deficits, which sounds really horribly clinical, but I just do a, a kind of, three circles, doing more, like, what do I do too much of? What do I not do enough of? What am I already doing well? Because my community of women, they're so hard on themselves of, about the excesses and the deficits.

[00:14:32] Oh, I'm not enough and I'm too much. Especially the ADHD women I support. I'm too much and I'm not enough at the same time. So they were already really well clued up on their excesses and their deficits. They're not great at the, what are you already doing well? And it might have been that, although they're trying to reduce their people pleasing behaviours, or they're trying to reduce their self critical behaviour, or they're trying to increase their, um, boundary setting, um, you know, to kind of set boundaries with others to say no, well, there might be lots of things they're trying to increase or decrease.

[00:15:02] But if we don't look at, well, actually, you already had a win this morning, like, you fed yourself a nutritious breakfast. You're already doing well with X, Y, and Z. If we don't bring that in We get back to that pursuit of perfection again, that even our well being becomes a perfectionistic thing. And I see this quite a lot, especially with what we said about how wellness is now trendy.

[00:15:23] I'm gonna say a, a rude word now, sometimes it is referred to as wanky wellness, because it's stuff that is just, you know, because it become trendy and You know, the, the TikTok things of like, this girl can, and all of these things that show someone who has privilege, who has infinite time on, on their hands and money, and they can do all of these things in the most perfect yoga leggings.

[00:15:49] We can't have that because self care, self compassion should be accessible. It should not be wanky wellness, that we do things that are expensive, expensive [00:16:00] remedies. That we also don't know if. if it has any evidence base at all. Looking after yourself in the deepest way, in the emotional way, is free of charge.

[00:16:09] Ross: Absolutely. Oh, it's such an inspiration to hear you, you talk about these issues in such an accessible way, Michaela. Thank you. And, I'm curious, when did you discover ACT? Was it in Sweden? Or was it when you came to the

[00:16:27] Michaela: so that was during my training, when I was doing my training to be psychologist in Sweden. I had lecturers like Joanne Dahl and Tobias Lundgren, uh, Tobias Lundgren, as it's supposed to be. Um, And I had Friedrich Liebheim and other, you know, leading people in the act field, and I just absolutely loved it.

[00:16:46] And I went to anything and everything that I could find with international speakers as well. People like Kelly Wilson, uh, Kirk Strassel, Steve Hayes. I did lots of training with, with other act people, and I just Clearly now, in hindsight, I know I sort of hyper focused on psychology. This is why I can talk about psychology all day long, and why I've been in this career for half my life and still not bored of it.

[00:17:09] Which is, you know, interesting for the ADHD brain who seeks novelty, but I always find new things to learn within it, so it's my, like, lifelong hyper focus. so I found my way into ACT that way, and In Sweden, we also have to access personal therapy when we're training to be psychologists. So we have to have 50 hours of, of therapy.

[00:17:29] And I saw someone who was, it was CBT because you choose between CBT and, and psychodynamic therapy, and I had both. But the CBT practitioner I saw was also very mindfulness based. And I was sitting there as a 20 year old something, you know, who was absolutely time blind. And we were working on, you know, punctuality and things like that in, in the personal therapy.

[00:17:51] We were. Addressing things that would be helpful to me as a psychologist in my profession. So we pick things [00:18:00] like managing time. And obviously now I send a lot of compassion back to that, you know, that person who was nearly like nearly 20 years ago, knowing that I have time blindness and no matter how much I write things down or check my watch, I'm probably always going to be time blind.

[00:18:14] That's why I arrived six minutes late for our interview today. and learning things from that psychologist. Watching her in her being, I think, gave me a very different entry into psychology, understanding her mindfulness based practices, the ACT practices. I understand that as a much more helpful softening for me, uh, than what I had with my first.

[00:18:40] Supervisor, the one who was the blank slate who didn't want to answer whether he was taking a bus to work or not. so I, I think about all these people I've modelled upon, and that's made me find my way back into radical acceptance, uh, radical openness, to be, yeah, to be more allowing of myself and growing as a person.

[00:19:02] My supervisor I had on my first placement after I finished, so in Sweden you do five years of training and then you do a sixth year which is a full year of working, so slightly different. You do some placements whilst you're training for five years, but then you come into a full year of practice. When you effectively graduated from university, So you practice independently, but you have to be overseen a little bit and just, you know, report at the end of the year, are you fit to practice?

[00:19:26] Do you need to be signed off by your supervisor? And that supervisor was also pivotal. She took me with her to all the conferences, all the trainings and took me under her wing. And she taught me this idea of being flexible, psychologically flexible and open by just how she did practice. Sometimes she took me with her to her M.

[00:19:49] O. T. and we had conversation in the car, you know. It really helped me to realize that, you know, with the neurodivergent brain I have, I have [00:20:00] to be flexible because I cannot function the same way that neurotypicals do. And I have to allow myself that grace. I think it really, really matters how we find our way into practices like ACT or CFT or CBT or whatever therapy practice we have has been so influenced by the influential people who showed us the way, who paved the path for us.

[00:20:22] And that supervisor I had, I even thanked her in my, in my book because I still remember the blessings and the teachings, that she gave me. She was, uh, specialized in DBT as well. So coming back full circle to what we said about

[00:20:37] Know your audience

[00:20:37] Michaela: You know, knowing your audience and like a good DJ, I think DBT, although it's not really the audience I work with at the moment, that was tailored to a one specific person in mind, who had a specific set of problems, who had a specific set of challenges.

[00:20:54] And I think some of our therapies are trying to be a little bit too Procrustean, you know, trying to fit the person into the model rather than Stretching the model to fit around the person and that's the bit I've learned from her of Actually, who have I got in front of me? How can I find? processes from the method I'm trained in Be it ACT, be it CFT, be it CBT, be it DBT, be it RODBT, Rhetorically Open Dialectic Behavioural Therapy, be it Behavioural Couples Therapy, be it whatever I'm trained in, how can I take stuff out of my toolbox to serve the person who sits in front of me in an effective, evidence based way that also shows compassion and humanity.

[00:21:42] That's how I think about my work every single day. And that means that if, God forbid, another psychologist would listen in, they might wonder, what on earth is she doing? Right? What is she doing? What is she doing tucking people into blankets and singing a lullaby to them on a home retreat? She's doing [00:22:00] that because she's practicing a process of allowing these people Receive compassion, care, tenderness, kindness in a way that they were never taught when they were growing up.

[00:22:09] Ross: Wow. And I love the way you're, you're really focusing on the person in front of you. Because I think in, in coaching, quite often we're thinking, right, I've got this model. I've got this model or as an organization, I've got this leadership framework. I need to, as a leader, I need to fit into this framework. They've got a set leadership framework and that creates a cage around that person. So as coaches and people working with people in business. We're looking to really meet them where they are with all our skills and tools applied flexibly and creatively.

[00:22:43] Michaela: Creatively is a key word there. I really love that. It's the, the innovation in that. And this is why before I had my company, the Thomas Connection, it was actually called CBT Innovation. Because I felt that I needed to innovate how some of these practices were applied. And yet at the same time also sitting dialectics, dialectics around.

[00:23:04] Doing things flexibly, creatively, innovatively versus also respecting the evidence base and the data. Um, you know, having been to training with people like Glenn Waller talking about therapist drift, so I was really conscious. That I wasn't just making stuff up as I go along, but actually drawing upon the evidence base.

[00:23:21] What works for whom

[00:23:21] Michaela: making sure that these are things that have efficacy. And I don't just, you know, become some sort of weird charlatan who makes stuff up because I like that flavour of the month. You know, I still always draw upon what do we know, what do we know works, but what works for whom. I think it's a very important research question that we're thinking a lot more about what works for whom and especially now that we know more about neuroaffirmative practices.

[00:23:47] Some of the things I've done in the past to treat anxiety does not apply to my community of neurodivergent women. Sometimes they're, rather than saying tolerating [00:24:00] anxiety, habituating to anxiety, you know, sometimes there is, how do you create your space to avoid anxiety? And that's very different, that's not how I was taught to do CBT or especially, you know, very behaviorist kind of ways where you throw someone into the situation, they habituate, not throw in, obviously, in a careful, consensual way, obviously.

[00:24:22] But that's very different to how we sometimes think of like, how do I need to set up my workplace to make me less anxious? It's very different. That doesn't mean I don't tolerate anxiety, as we'll get on to soon with the spacious adventure. Sometimes that's about courage over confidence, that you have the courage to do hard things and show yourself you have the resources to cope with whatever happens, but I really thought about things differently and that's why we need to constantly keep our finger on the pulse of research and evidence because some of the things I learned 20 years ago when I first came into psychology, some of it is outdated or has been deepened or has been improved upon, even within act.

[00:25:04] You know, we don't always do the same things the same way. So I think that's why I'm never bored about psychology, because we constantly find out more stuff, new stuff that I didn't know before. And then, mind blown again.

[00:25:17] Ross: mm, beautiful. Now, Michaela, the time has come, it's a very exciting moment, to ask you for your song choice. So this will be a song that announces your arrival in a room for the next Maybe, say, three months or so. Not forever. And it would announce your arrival in virtual rooms, real rooms, the supermarket, whatever it might be.

[00:25:41] So, reveal all. What is your song choice?

[00:25:44] Michaela: So as I told you, I'm not going to pick one song. I'm going to pick a mashup.

[00:25:49] Ross: I like it. It appeals to the, the Glee fanboy in me, yes.

[00:25:54] Michaela: Good. And it also shows you how far I've come in my inner acceptance of the neurodivergent [00:26:00] mind that has that rebel streak. Um, I've had sort of my, my Luminar personality profiling shows I have a rebel streak and I used to fight it. By working in the NHS and suppress it and now I just let it run free and I'm so much happier.

[00:26:16] So I'm gonna rebel against that and say I've picked two as a mash up. Partly because I think it's great fun to play around with things like that, like a good DJ. Um, and partly because I often feel like I need to both down regulate and up regulate. That's the kind of the greatest balancing act of my life, and for the rest of my life.

[00:26:37] Figuring out when do I need to go up. As in I need to stimulate my brain, I need to stimulate myself to get going. And when do I need to go down, so that I calm the overwhelm, slow down, come to some stillness because I'm overstimulated. And I need to just, that sort of, the physiological sigh. So, I picked my songs to reflect that.

[00:27:00] Because I think that's the challenge of preventing ADHD burnout, of coming up or down, up or down, depending on when you need to get started and when you need to come to stop. So my song That I picked for the sort of slower, spacious side is Shine Your Light. And I will just say the lyrics because it's very short.

[00:27:20] I sing this at my singing mama group that I take my toddler to. It's a group that is not for the children. It is for the mothers. They come together in a circle. We sing songs. just following the leader and our children play in the middle with toys and then we eat cake. So, you know, it's something for everyone.

[00:27:40] And going to that singing group has really developed my courage, my confidence. I have had a lifetime of miming when I go to anything. Everything from a birthday party to, you know, anything where you're required to sing something. I would mime it. I would not sing. Because I had this [00:28:00] conviction that I sound awful.

[00:28:02] So, it was what I now know from my singing group, uh, a trauma around singing. Because I was told once that I had an awful singing voice and I never sang again. So, shine your light means to me that I allow myself to be the person who I am and shine that. Vibrant energy into rooms. There will be people listening here today who will be provoked by me, I get that.

[00:28:23] There will be people of the old god in psychology who do not resonate with some of the things I'm saying. And I equally know there will be some people reaching out to you, Ross, or me afterwards saying I loved this interview because you were showing me that it's possible for me too. So I picked Shine Your Light because the word of the year for 2023 for me was beacon.

[00:28:44] I picked Beacon because I love this idea that I can dare to shine my light and other people can follow and other people can do this permission piece for themselves. So, it goes, shine your light. Now I can't remember it without singing it. Shine your light, I'll shine mine too. I see you, you see me, I see you.

[00:29:05] Um, so we just sing that over and over again. And then it goes, shining your light, radiate love. Who you are. I need to sing in my head now.

[00:29:15] Radiant love like a star is who you are. So it's something to do with how we are allowing ourselves to shine bright or burn bright. So all of this has been, all of my offers in psychology has come together with who I am and the journey I've been on as well. So that's the first part. That's the bit that down regulates me, allowing myself that permission to be accepting who I am.

[00:29:37] And then I picked when a fire starts to burn. And if you don't know that one, it's It's quite an upbeat song, and it is, it's basically when a fire starts to burn, it starts to spread, and it's just a dance beat, dance tune, and that's a kind of nod to how much movement matters to me, and how Sometimes I just can't think my way out of things, I have to just move [00:30:00] my way out of them.

[00:30:01] And how much work I've done in the somatic exercises over the last few years. So how I bring together psychology of the mind with the connection with the body. I collaborate with nutritionists, yoga teachers, to have that more holistic view of the body. So when the fire starts to burn, it starts to spread, it's a nod to what happens.

[00:30:23] For me, and what happens for my women in Burnt Brite, when things start to click in gear, when they finally start to behave as if they are worthwhile, as if they deserve self kindness, self compassion, if they deserve to receive from others, then that fire starts to burn. And I've seen women create immensely powerful things.

[00:30:45] that they've stepped into. People have walked away from toxic environments, left toxic marriages, found new love, found new passion, started new companies, created amazing things, upped their revenue, all sorts of things. Because when a fire starts to burn, it starts to spread. So that's what I want to have.

[00:31:06] So shine your light, and when a fire starts to burn, it starts to spread.

[00:31:11] Ross: And it will be so. We're going to put so many things out there today, but If anyone wants to make a mashup of those two, then please do get in touch because I think it would be, I think it would be a banger, as the kids call it today.

[00:31:25] Michaela: I think it would be.

[00:31:26] Ross: Beautiful.

[00:31:27] That's it, peace eepers, part two of my chat with Michaela in the bag. Thanks so much to Michaela for being so open about her life and the evolution of her practice. Next week, we'll be talking about Michaela's spacious adventure. Which was a solo ten day trip to Vietnam. Which was And if you're liking the cut of Michaela's jib, and are interested in her burn bright program, you'll find a link in the show notes. And please say that you discovered her on PeopleSoup. Now, [00:32:00] folks. We need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So

[00:32:06]

[00:32:06] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:32:10] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:32:18] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:32:46] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:32:56] Michaela: What you see today, how I show up on social media, that is not what I was 10 years ago. That's not what I was when I was 19 and started studying psychology. That is not who I was when I was 8 and felt I needed to take my best friend home and keep her safe.