Well, hello, my name is Matt Edmundson and you are listening

to the eCommerce Podcast.

I have been an eCommerce since 2002.

Yes, I have ladies and gentlemen, a very long time, and these days

I partner with eCommerce brands to help them grow, scale and exit.

And if you'd like to know more about how that works and if we could

actually work together, head over to our website, eCommerce Podcast net.

It's.

All there, but that's enough about me.

Today I am joined with a delightful.

Guest, Millie Flemington-Claire from Human Beauty.

Uh, Millie, it's fair to say that I've been looking forward to this conversation

since, um, well, since we spoke.

I think it was in February.

Uh, we, we sort of connected, didn't we?

And we, this is one of our found episodes.

So you run, uh, your own e-commerce business, but it's fair to say.

You've got a bit of a story, which is, um, well, I'm gonna say it's

nothing short of inspiring really.

So give us, uh, a little bit of background about you.

Um, yeah.

So I was born with a rare, um, condition called Cystinosis.

Um, it's a, like a condition that only affects around 2000 people in the world.

Um, and it mainly affects my, um, kidneys, but I was also tube fed until

I was 18 and I'm only four foot six.

Um, so I grew up, um, kind of desperate to fit in, in and out of

hospital and it was very apparent I was different to ev like my peers.

Um.

And I found who I am and my self-expression through makeup.

Um, but the beauty industry, um, isn't, and wasn't very inclusive or accessible.

Um, and that was kind of what made me really wanna start my own journey

in o owning my own, um, beauty brand and kind of making sure I rep be the

representation that I wish I'd seen.

When I was a teenager, um, because yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel represented

and I think it would've helped me discover who I am sooner if I had

Yeah.

seen more of me.

Yeah.

Well, fantastic.

Well, we're gonna dig into all of that, which I'm, I mean, we had a

brief, like I said, we had quite a bit of a chat, didn't we, in February.

And I, I just loved it.

And, and since you and I spoke, um, uh, those listening in the UK that watch a

certain TV show called Dragon's Den may, uh, either remember your, you go, oh,

that, that, that name sounds familiar.

Uh, dragons Den is the equivalent of Shark Tank, uh, in the US

and you were on there recently.

I was, yeah, aired on the 27th of February, so it's nearly been a month.

Month

Nearly been a month since you were on there.

And in fact, uh, it's series 22, episode eight, called into the BBCI player.

Uh, and it's the last episode in this current season.

Um, and so somehow, I mean, I, I know there are, there, there are,

there are some nuances to this journey, but you, you somehow got

onto Dragons Den, you pitched to.

Um, the, uh, dragons on there.

And, uh, to quote Deborah, you came away with the best deal that has ever been

given on Dragons Den because you retained all of your business, but got the help

of three dragons, um, at least on air.

You did.

Uh, the reality of that may or may not be different.

I don't want to presume.

Um, so let's, if you don't mind, let's start there.

How was that?

How was pitching or, or being on

Yeah, because I, I remember watching the show, right?

And there's this clip on the show where you are going up in the, in the lift

or the elevator for American cousins, uh, and you're going up and there's

that big deep breath that you take in.

And I'm like, oh, you, you looked like you were slightly nervous, and

this was kind of your way of just calming yourself for a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, well, the spoiler alert, the lift is a fake, is fake.

Oh, is it?

yeah.

And they, and, and, uh, um, yeah, so I, I was really, really nervous.

I mean, I've been watching the show since I was about seven.

Mm.

and it was always my dream to be on the show and.

Pitching and public speaking is a nerve wracking thing.

Yeah.

um, it had been a whole day of preparation and I'd been in and out of that lift,

to be honest about for, for 40 minutes.

Um.

Just do or film in all the different takes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they definitely keep you in the lift for a bit.

Just, you know, to build that, uh, that, that tension and the thing.

But yeah, that was my like like game time.

It's time, time to time to go and do my thing, um, and try to breathe.

'cause yeah, I knew I was about to do a. A pitch for like a minute

and a half, and when I pitch, I sometimes forget to breathe.

And I just thought, speed talk and then I just suddenly mid centered to go.

Um, so yeah, that it, it was, um, it's tv, isn't it?

Yeah.

um, I you don't, you don't think about these things when you watch

it, uh, for years actually like that.

It's a set ultimately and it is a TV show.

Um, the pitch was, um.

Exhilarating and terrifying.

Um, I, I, the relief of that, it was over.

I completely forgot, like at the end you have to like usually say, oh,

dragons, you've got some samples under your seat, or, you know, whatever.

And I kind of just did my pitch and was kind of like this, and they're like, oh,

are you gonna tell us what's under our

Ah, okay.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

You know, you've got some products under your seat.

Um, and they made us do that.

All for catwalk when my brand is, is a makeup brand.

We, we don't, we not, we're not doing catwalks.

Um, so yeah, it was, it was an experience.

Um.

To say the very least.

And it was months, months of preparation that led to that moment.

Um, uh, but I was really happy in the end with how, you know, my pitch went.

Yeah.

I try not to, when I do pitches, I try not to like practice

like word for word script it.

Um, because if I mess up my brain doesn't work like that, I,

Right.

be like, I can't continue.

Uh, so it was different every time I practiced, but overall it went.

It went really well.

Um, and I was in there for about an hour and 20 minutes answering questions.

Um,

really?

Because it's like three minutes on the show, isn't it?

yeah, so I did my pitch.

They asked a couple questions to my models.

They left and then it was, yeah, about an hour.

Uh, I was in there.

So they cut an hour over an hour footage down to 13 minutes.

I think I got in the

Wow.

Wow.

And, uh, I mean, you said that you, it was your dream to go on there, and

I'm, I'm, I'm curious as to, you've started, you started this e-commerce

business, uh, human beauty, uh, which you mentioned a few years ago.

Uh, two years ago.

Uh, just over, just under two years, I think.

Isn't it?

Well, technically it was, um, it was 20.

2022. Um, 'cause I, I basically, it was, uh, just after COVID, I,

it'd been kind of in the works.

Um, and then I, um, got the opportunity to appear on a kinda documentary series.

Um, and they are, they have like about 10 million subscribers across the world.

So I was like, wow, I'm, I was just about to go traveling for a

few months, so I got a website up.

I didn't really have product, well, I didn't have product, physical product

with me and I was just like, I'll just put it up, go traveling and in case

people wanna pre-order, uh, you know, so that is technically when it started.

Um, but like really properly in the last year and a half, uh, is

when I've been actually doing it.

Yeah, no fair place.

So it is a fairly young business and so were you of the mind, um.

This is an opportunity to get on Dragon's Dentist, the show

I've always wanted to been on.

Or were you of the mind of, well actually this actually could be quite useful.

Um, whether or not I get the investment, I'm on BBC tv, there's PR that goes

alongside that, et cetera, et cetera.

Um, I'm, I'm kind of curious, what was your, what, what was

your reasoning to go on the show?

Uh, yeah, I, I mean, firstly, I said, it was, I kind of always, as a young

person, when I was like a kid wanting to own my business, that was like I.

made it if you, if you were on the show.

But yeah, ultimately whether I got, I I, I didn't need the investment.

Well, I didn't need the money.

Mm.

you know, they cut, they cut my last year of financials, so it made me look

like I had like 900 pounds in the bank.

But that, that ultimately, that just wasn't true.

Yeah.

I'D won.

60,000 pounds in grant funding and pitch competitions.

Yeah.

but the PR and you know, the being able to get out there in, in front

of a lot, a wider audience, um, and get my messaging and my purpose out

Mm.

ultimately the goal.

Um, you know, having mentorship and help from the dragons

were would, was also the goal.

But, um, you know, but having the idea of it being on national

TV was ultimately the main goal.

And so, uh, if, if I can ask what happened to the business then after

you, after the TV show was air.

Yeah.

So, uh, on the evening, uh, we, we, we had a, um, kind of of

thousands of people on our website.

I think overall we had about 20,000 people on the website,

um, which was, which was good.

Uh, not as many as I thought.

Hmm,

that space of time.

Um, but again, like it, it didn't really cross my mind that people

don't watch live TV anymore.

that's so true.

and no one watches, like, especially no one my age even has a TV license.

So watching BBC is not.

Not even on their radar.

Um, like half a million people that last year started paying for TV licenses.

Wow.

um, it, we grew on social media, but again, I think we

gained like 2000 followers,

Right.

which, you know, from mentors I'd spoken to at that had been on the show.

You know, five years ago that was like nothing.

Um, and we gained, we got lot, quite a few sales, like a couple hundred

sales, um, over the next, like that evening and the next few days.

Um, which all really great.

Um, I reached a whole new audience that I never thought I would

Mm-hmm.

demographic, uh, age demographic.

Uh, my age demographic probably went up by.

30 years.

20 to 30 years.

Um, so, you know, overall we did get, um, out there, um, but not particularly

out there to the people that I thought or I would've wanted to reach.

Yeah.

'cause yeah, then it, it, it, how we communicate with these people

and the customer service and all these things you don't think of

and processes before have now been.

Of a pain in the.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As you get.

Yeah, I, I can appreciate that.

I remember when we, um, when we launched our beauty website, um, I think I've

told this story before on the show, but we'd launched a beauty website.

I. And, um, in two, but this is, this is a long time ago.

This is 2006 when we launched the site, and we thought that by the end of the

year, um, so we had like four months to go until the end of the year, right?

So we thought in that four months, if we could do about

10,000 pounds worth of sales.

We were on track, you know, with our, what we predicted that, you know, we could

potentially do with some clever marketing.

We thought we could probably do about 50 grand in our first year.

So in the first four months, if we hit 10 grand, we'd be okay.

But we didn't do 10,000 pounds in sales in our first four months.

We did 400,000 pounds in sales in the first four months,

and the result of that was.

Quite extraordinary.

So you have to rethink a lot of what you once knew, right?

So, and this is what you're finding out that actually all of a

sudden, I mean, managing a business which is rapidly growing is, is

fundamentally a wonderful problem to have, but it is still a problem.

And there are still things that you have to think about and you have to

deal with and you have to, you know, adapt to and so on and so forth.

And, um, it was just, I, I just remember that.

Phase.

Um, I mean, to be fair, I didn't have to deal with most of it because, uh,

we just did the website of things.

It was just great.

But it, it was, it was quite an extraordinary time.

And so I can see how, how you would have a few things that you now have to deal with.

Has the, has the momentum stayed or was it sort of a, a blip?

Uh, no.

Like this is the first time ever.

I've not had a single day without sales.

Hmm.

but again, it, I was slightly disappointed because I had in my head

figures that I'd known people in the

Yeah.

done versus what I had done.

Um, so although like.

Actually now I've taken a step back.

Um, this is amazing 'cause this is more than I've ever, ever made,

but it's still like, is it enough?

And are we, is the then like the next step and the future of my business that

Yeah.

um, you know, it wasn't this overnight thing that I kind of

my head thought it would be.

Um, uh, but we ha we are still having sales every day and ultimately.

people that are my target audience don't watch the show.

So it's now about resharing the clips and, uh, kind of, you know, trying to make

the most of the press on social media.

Yeah.

Yeah.

because the people I have reached, they don't have social media.

They don't even

Yeah.

particularly know how to use emails, a lot of them.

Um, um, so yeah, it, but it has, it's, it stayed, it obviously

the night of it was huge.

Um, but.

are ploting along, which is good.

It is interesting, isn't it?

I remember we had Lucy from Tom Jewelry on the show, and I. Her business

took a turn when Stacey Solomon was pictured wearing her jewelry.

I think she, I think Stacey was wearing it when she got married.

And to be totally full disclosure, I love Stacey.

Uh, I think she's in, my wife and I are always watching the TV shows.

Just think she's great.

Um, and again, if you're outside of the uk, Stacey is just,

she's a UK TV personality.

Who is, um, is just lovely.

So she's very real, isn't she, Stacy?

And, um.

Yeah, Lucy was talking about how she was photographed at

her wedding with her jewelry.

And so Lucy's whole Mo then became about using that in her social media.

It wasn't like the world picked up on the fact that Stacey was

wearing, um, Lucy's jewelry.

Jewelry.

Lucy had to tell the world,

uh, on, and I think she still does in many ways.

And I think, um, it used to be, I remember years ago, um, I. There was, oh,

what's the, there's a self tan product that I can't remember the name of.

It was super popular for a period of time.

And, um, the, I remember the brand wasn't really doing anything and then somebody

in the press took a picture of Victoria Beckham, you know, carrying a, a, a

carrier bag with a logo on the front.

And then all of a sudden everybody wanted that fake tank 'cause

Victoria Beckham was using it.

And I get that, that.

Influencer aspect is quite important, um, with, with famous influencer.

I, I, like you say, I think it's different now.

People don't read magazines, they don't really watch live tv.

It's all moved on.

Uh, and so I ge I, I see why you're probably in a phase now

where you can use those clips, I'm guessing, for social proof.

Right.

yeah.

Well, yes and no.

Okay.

technically we're not allowed.

Like you're not, it says you're not allowed to use clips from the show,

Okay.

promote your business,

Yeah,

we all know that every single business that has ever been on Dragons then

uses clips from the show and puts, you know, a big banner with pictures

on their website that says seen on.

Um, so yeah, there was like, there was businesses that were.

Breaking the rules of the, the, you know,

yeah.

that we'd been given before they'd even been on the show.

Mm-hmm.

so yeah, it's, I, am now going to use the clips.

It's just, um, I think it's more of a ask for forgiveness, not permission.

Situation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

do say that they're meant to approve every, any piece of content you ever post,

Yeah.

in relation to it.

Um, but yeah, I mean, how many ads have I have you seen from

Hmm.

fussy deodorant

Mm-hmm.

I. All those brands that have been on it.

Um, so yeah, it's now, you know, figuring out like how I, how I use

it, how I want to go about talking about it and sharing the clips.

'cause they're, believe it, they managed to cut any conversation about

my actual products out of the edit.

Yeah.

they spent like a whole hour talking about my mascara.

Um, uh.

I thought, oh, we'll do a little cute, uh, social media post, like with mascara

account, like how many times the dragon said the word mascara they didn't

say mascara once in the entire edit.

Um, and yeah, so there isn't actually much like product

Hmm.

stuff that I could even use to

Hmm.

technically promote your business.

Um, so yeah, it's just kind of being clever with how I, how I use

it and how I wanna go about next.

Yeah, which makes sense.

It's um, I'm curious, how did you deal?

You mentioned, um, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, Millie,

but you mentioned that you were a little bit disappointed with.

Both the exposure and I suppose the re like the, the resorting social media

followers and the, and the sales, I suppose a little bit a, a after drag.

You thought that would be bigger.

And, um, if I'm honest with you, every entrepreneur that's ever started a

business irrespective of whether they've been on Dragons Den, always wanted it

to be bigger and better than it was.

Um, have, have you dealt with that?

Uh, difficultly to be honest.

Um, I. It all became a bit overwhelming.

Um, on the night.

Everyone, you know, a perfectionist and like a lot of business owners,

like I had an idea in my head.

So when it fell short of it, um, I was disappointed.

And as much as people have good intention around me, they're

like, no, but it's amazing.

Like, look at this and, or, you know, I, I, all I could think

of is what wasn't in the edit.

Um, and obviously I'm the only one who knew what actually.

Was said and done.

And I had a, I also had a idea of what would've made the cut in

Hmm.

tv.

Um, so having as much as people meant well, the more people said,

oh no, but you came across so well, or you are doing amazing.

It kind of annoyed me more.

Right.

Um, but I've just been trying to take a step back and look at, you know.

The actual amazing achievements that we have got.

Hmm.

and taking a step back from social media and emails and

trying to find some kind of.

Balance between my work and my life, where that, where, where that starts and

that ends, um, in the last couple weeks.

Um, because yeah, I was becoming really overwhelmed with just the, um,

sheer amount of work because I've been packaging all the orders myself, I've

Right.

customers.

And, um, I ended up accidentally sending out, um, a few bits of faulty product.

and it's the first time this has ever happened.

I've ever had faulty product.

So we've got that.

The.

You know, we've got hundreds of people or like a hundred people,

their first experience is a bad one.

Um, and I put my heart and soul into these products and

I've never had to deal with it.

Um, and then having customers email me, almost like kind of attacking

in like I purposely sent them.

Terrible product.

Mm.

Um, it was really devastating and trying to like pick myself back up and see

how this continues was, you know, it's been hard, but um, trying to celebrate

the small wins has been a big help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you, how did you approach that customer service problem?

Um, I've got a va, uh, through access to work who kind of helps

with my life admin and stuff.

Um, and at first I tried to tackle it all, which wasn't a good idea, um, because

again, I'm too close to the problem.

I'm too close to what I know it should be.

And, um, so at first, I, uh.

I was replying to emails all, all hours and I'd been bombarded

by them and I didn't have much patience for people, for people.

Um,

Especially mean people.

yeah, because I was like, you've watched me

Mm-hmm.

national tv, pour my crying on national tv, pour my heart and

soul out, then you email me being horrible and saying I'm disgraceful.

And, you know, using really.

Mean words, uh, almost like I've done it on purpose.

I'm trying to scam you.

Or people are, you know, really impatient for their parcels as well.

Um, like we've had that a lot people waiting more

Yeah.

days.

Um, e you know, um, so I then realized I very quickly needed to

outsource it and get someone else to.

That's not so close to it to

Yeah.

Um, because yeah, as I say, um, it was, I was taking it personally.

Um.

Yeah.

And you have to develop a little bit of a thick skin, I think in, in, in

eCommerce mainly because I think if you.

I am sure there is some proper name for this, which if I thought

about it, I, it would dredge it up from the back of my head.

But the, the interesting thing is if you buy something from a shop and you

then take it back to the shop, you appreciate that the person in front of

you was not the source of the problem.

Right?

But they're the person that can help you.

And you might be a little bit peeved at the shop 'cause you've got to

take it back and all that sort of stuff, but you, you genuinely.

Generally talk like a reasonable human being, right?

You take that per same person and you put them in a place where they become faceless

and their communication is digital.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's like the meanness, uh, sort of barometer gets turned up.

Does that mean there's, the switch goes all the way around and they say

the most extraordinary things, which they would never say face to face.

Um.

And so, yeah, I think you do have to, you know, be a bit thick skinned,

uh, in that.

And, and we've just come to realize, I think, 'cause my,

initially I would respond, I would ra rally against things like that.

I'd be like, well, if you can talk to me like that, I don't care.

I just genuinely don't care.

Uh, which is, which is probably not the most helpful response.

Um, and then I took it as a challenge to see if I could win them.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, well, 'cause if I win them over.

Um, then actually the, they probably will become quite loyal customers.

Yeah,

Do you know what I mean?

Is, is, is sort of what we found.

And so then that became the challenge.

And the way that we did it was just said, listen, we're gonna call you

yeah.

this over the phone.

Right.

Uh, and that, that just changed everything because people are much

more sensible on the phone, uh, than they are on email, isn't know what

it is, put people on Twitter or on email, and they become lunatics.

It's just.

It

just draws it out of us, I guess.

yeah.

It's, um, yeah, it's been learning and even just like, even people using my

website and not, or even using my products and not knowing how to do the, what are

in my head is like the most simple thing

Mm-hmm.

world.

Um.

And just having to talk people, like talk people through things like that.

I'd never even had even imagined anyone would need help with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's, but it's been good and we have, you know, done that,

been able to win people over and actually, and even things of, like,

even things like realizing, oh, not to offer a refund as the first,

like a, a replacement and a refund.

Just say, we're gonna send you a. Replacement asap and

Yeah.

for a refund.

Yeah.

it only happened once with one, one lady that I did.

What you exactly.

You said I, I said, you know what, like if you can't wait, I said, I, I

explained to her three times that I was one person packing like 200 orders

and if she couldn't wait for it, uh oh.

Well I said like, do you mind bearing with me?

And, um, she just came back Meina and meina every time and said,

I don't, you know, you know, talking about my shipping stuff.

I said, you know what?

I said, if you can't wait, I'll give you a refund.

I was like,

It's not worth a headache.

Yeah.

it's 20 quid, she

Yeah,

I don't, I don't.

yeah, yeah.

I definitely don't need this in my life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I I I appreciate that.

It's fascinating, isn't it?

'cause it sounds like you've gone through a lot then the last

couple, a big learning curve,

uh, with your econ business.

And it will just keep growing.

Millie, I mean, you're in, you're in the beauty industry, perhaps

one of the most competitive.

I'm, you know, I'm speaking from experience, one of the most

competitive sort of places to try and operate a business in.

You've got quite a unique niche.

You obviously you have a cause and this is, um, something which is

quite interesting in many ways.

You know, businesses that are built around a noble cause.

Um, and what that means, um.

Which is fine if you are somebody like Patagonia or Tom Shoes or somebody

that actually proves that they're doing the cause that they set out

to do, rather than just kind of, you know, greenwashing or cause washing

or whatever the, the phraseology is.

But obviously for you that this is a mission.

It's not just, uh, I, I mean it's nice to make money out of it, but you are doing

this because of a deep personal mission or sense of mission, I would've thought.

Yeah.

Is that right?

I.

Yeah, for sure.

And I have like much white, like bigger ambitions than, um, that have kind of

appeared as a result of this journey that I've been on so far with human

beauty in terms of like, I. Making a bigger change like in the beauty

industry, but also in any product based businesses in terms of accessibility.

'cause you know, ultimately we've got my makeup products, um, and my community.

But what, what is the core of.

I do is my story, which is so many other people's story and also my

kind of more wider for accessibility.

so yeah, it's, it's kind of a piece of hopefully a bigger, bigger puzzle.

Yeah, I, and I want to dig into this a little bit if I can, uh, with you, Millie,

but before I do, let me just do the quick, the quick ad break, uh, as we like to say.

Uh, if you're enjoying this conversation, if you run your own e-commerce business

like Millie, and you would like to join us, why not come and join in.

Our eCommerce cohorts.

We have one in the uk.

We have one in Australia and New Zealand, and we have a new one

actually starting in the US as well.

Uh, probably.

Summertime, 2025.

Um, and so yeah, if you're an e-commerce entrepreneur, uh,

and you want to come join in, basically it's a monthly zoom call.

We just get together with the E-com entrepreneurs, just trade stories, ideas,

and that's about, that's not about it.

There's a bit more to it than that, but you get the point.

You get to hang out with other e-com entrepreneurs and learn from

each other, and it's totally free.

It's pretty awesome.

Pretty rad.

Pretty cool.

Pretty rad.

I can't believe I've just said that.

A man of my age, uh, I've been hanging out with my kids too much.

Anyway, if you wanna know more about eCommerce Cohort, just go to the

website eCommerce Podcast dot net.

And who knows, I might see you on one of those calls.

So, Millie, let me, um, let's jump into this mission, uh, the, the

accessibility around products because, uh, being totally candid, it's not

something that has affected me.

Um, and so.

I, I have to work hard to think about accessibility, if that makes sense.

And, um.

I remember years ago when, you know, the web started becoming a thing and everybody

was just like, in the code you have to put like, um, uh, alt tags on images.

So if someone who's partially bind or blind is using your website, they

understand what the image is and you go, well, this, this makes all the sense in

the world why this should be a standard.

Right.

Even things like contrast, you know, if the colors aren't too distinguished,

then it can affect people, um, visually.

I mean, I'm just an old man now, so I have to wear readers.

So, you know, I don't, I'm not a big fan of tiny fonts, but that's, that's about

the limit in, in some respects where.

I don't see it in experience.

You, you do on a fairly regular basis and you, you've done things

which I think are quite remarkable.

Like, I, I mean, I was joking before we hit the record button, I think about

mascara and how I'm, I'm not brilliant actually at, at, at, at, I'm, I'm not

a knowledge base on it, but you've done something quite unusual with the

mascara, which is, I guess why they talked about it for an hour on Dragon's Den.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, um, it was a mixture between.

Uh, in terms of them talking on Dragon Stand, I think it was

a mixture between what it was.

Um, I do, I it is like the product that a lot of people talk about.

Um, 'cause it has the big, the, you know, the most amount of unique selling points.

So we've got our anti-roll packaging, um, which I.

Ultimately is just square packaging.

But I talk about, um, like incremental innovation has just small tweaks

to existing products that are, um, thoughtful design considerations that

then make it better for everyone.

Um, 'cause until you start thinking about it, you don't realize how many

products in a makeup bag, like round

Mm.

You know, if you're a com you go, you do your makeup on, the commute, on the

train, and you then you have to do that awkward roll under the, under the chair

and have to get in between people and be like, sorry, can I get my product?

So it is like accessible design ultimately benefits everyone.

And if you look around you, there are, there are things that been

designed for disabled people that actually have just made it into the

mainstream 'cause it's just good design.

Um, I do think they spoke about my mascara a lot as well, because.

Peter Jones isn't gonna pick up a pink heart shaped product

and be like, I love this.

This is this.

MAs green.

Arguably masculine.

Um, so I, and then the, the, the rest of the dragons kind of ran with it.

Peter said, this is your product.

And they

Yeah.

with it.

Um, 'cause like our eyeshadow pellet has QR codes, or now we're

gonna put navi lens codes on them, uh, which are basically a QR code.

But Navi lens are, um, slightly different designs.

So people who are visually impaired or blind, um, you can scan the QR code.

From a much further distance, from angles, that type of thing.

And it leads to audio, visual descriptions, uh, of the shades.

And all of

Hmm.

our eyeshadows are kind of placed in positions that make sense.

'cause again, eyeshadow, palettes just are plopped around.

Whatever looks better.

Um.

So, yeah, it's the, and it is also talk about accessibility, not just

from, you know, design features, but price, uh, is often forgotten about.

Um, we're seeing more, some brands bring out like techie devices.

Um, like there was a tech device to apply lipstick and it's basically

a gimbal, uh, camera gimbal, but apply that you can put lipsticks in.

Oh

but it costs, it costs $200.

wow.

it can only be used with this brand's.

Specific mascara, which is about eight times the price of a normal

Right.

which then create, uh, not mascara lip lipstick, which

then creates forced loyalty.

Um, 53% of disabled people are unemployed, um, and it costs on average

1200 pounds a month, more just to live and exist as a disabled person in the

Really.

Yeah.

Wow.

and it's a really scary place for my community right

now with all the government

Yeah, it is.

I mean, yeah, if we were political podcasts, we, I mean,

I would rock and roll on this.

I mean, it's ridiculous in many ways, but, um.

that's important.

That price, uh, is also taken into consideration when we

talk about accessible products.

So let me ask you a question then, milli, if I can, I, I run econ businesses,

um, and I, I know many people listening to the show run econ businesses.

What I mean, you, you of beyond the price aspect of it and I, I'm,

I don't quite know how to help

with pricing.

Other than give discount to pricing.

But then how do you, how do you do that in a way that is equitable and fair?

I, I, that's gonna take a little bit of thought, but, um,

how do, for someone like me that runs eCommerce businesses, um, that.

I, I think that's probably fair to say.

We all have a real heart to do the right thing.

Some people don't.

And I get, you know, and, and, and if that's you, please

don't listen to the show.

Uh, you should probably turn it off now.

Um, but we Do, you know what I mean?

We have a real heart in some respects to do the right thing.

Um, but we don't know what we don't know if that makes sense.

And so where's a good place for us to start?

What's some of the things that we should think about maybe is a better question

when it comes to round accessibility.

Um, well, I would say to follow, especially for like eCommerce websites,

social media accessibility, there's someone on LinkedIn called Jamie Shields.

Okay.

he calls himself the blind Rhino.

Um,

Okay.

he does a lot of resources and posts about, um, whether that be,

um, like social media captions, alt texts, websites, contrasts.

Um, and his, his information is usually in infographics and it's

so easily digestible and it's, um, entertaining and, um, yeah, it's not.

It's easy to kind of take in as someone who has no

Yeah.

in accessibility.

I've learned a lot from him.

Um, and 'cause he, uh, talks about accessibility and he's blind.

Um, and it's kind of again, like things that you wouldn't even think

about, um, like having sentence casing on your hashtags, for example.

Um, so having, if it was, um, I dunno, uh.

Eco eCommerce Podcast, it'd be having, um, uh, capital letters on each, um, word.

Yeah.

And that's because of the way screen readers read it

Yeah.

not use overusing emojis.

Like some people use emojis as like bullet points and things like that.

Um, so there's little things that again, like I wouldn't have ever thought about.

Um, but it's in a way that you can digest it.

Really easily.

Mm

and I think ultimately that, that people in my community are just

happy that people wanna learn and

mm.

we know that you are gonna make mistakes.

Like I've made mistakes, especially when I, with my website, the first

round time round when I used an accessibility widget, um, it, it blew up.

Overnight on LinkedIn.

Um, and it was kind of reached the experts who I, I didn't even know were out there.

I thought I was doing a great thing.

And it was like, yeah, 80,000 impressions, hundreds of comments.

Oh wow.

and it's a very different world, England versus us in terms of web accessibility.

Mm.

but it's all about humility and learning and you know, putting your

hands up and saying, you know, I. I didn't know or I made a mistake.

Uh, and it's what you do that,

Yeah,

learn,

yeah.

No, that's a fair comment.

And I think that's very wise lessons for all of us in that really.

Um, because like you say, uh, I think just trying to improve, just trying

to be better and, and actually just.

Real people who struggle in real different ways.

And, and actually it doesn't take a lot from our point of view to, to make it

a whole lot easier for a whole bunch of people, you know, with what we do.

And I, I think that's fair play.

What's the future?

Hold, Millie, what does, uh, what's, what's the next few

years of human beauty look like?

Where are you hoping it all goes to?

Yeah, that's the, uh, that's the, that's the question that, um, is going

around in my head a lot at the moment.

Um, 'cause ultimately I need to making enough that I can pay myself is, uh.

Number one.

Um, as I said in this, the show, I, I wanna be the Fenty

Beauty for accessible beauty.

Um, I do believe that the beauty industry is gonna catch on like

the adaptive fashion, world.

It, it boomed and is a multi-million pound, maybe

billion pound, uh, industry now.

Um, and I wanna be the one leading.

Mm.

way for that.

Um, and yeah, being known for accessible beauty, I want to start my other, uh,

business, um, which I talk about making much wider change in terms of some

kind of, um, you know, certification.

Uh, we we're basically gonna do a certification for products.

Um, 'cause that right now there's no legislation.

That means businesses have to be accessible when it

Right.

There's legislation for venues.

Kind of.

Um, and ultimately we right now going to a business sale, it's, you

know, it is the right thing to do.

Um, it's, I want to make a bigger change in terms of, uh, consulting with

businesses and helping businesses develop products that are accessible from.

The start,

Yeah.

because we're such a huge minority, the world's largest minority,

and ultimately the, the one that anyone can become a part of.

Um, and you say about your, your gases and stuff that when I talk about

disability, it's such a huge, huge, um, umbrella term, like age related,

macular degeneration would come under that, uh, in terms of accessibility.

So accessibility really affects everyone.

Um.

So that is the plan.

I, I would, I need to get an investor basically as well.

Um, and hopefully one that shares my values in terms of making a

change and someone in the beauty industry, hopefully, because it's

such a closed door industry still.

Everyone does.

Everyone is harsh.

Harsh.

No one wants to share anything really.

Um, so

Yeah, the beauty industry, I think in some respects run by major core.

I, I appreciate there are, what I'm about to say is not true of everybody because

that would be an unfair thing to say, but I think the way that I viewed the beauty

industry was I was glad to get out of it.

Um, uh, when we, when we did, because it is, it is horrific in

some respects on so many levels.

I remember, um, reading the stat that my daughter, who instantly has just turned

18, uh, but she wasn't 18 at the time.

Um, she would see around 3000 images a day

through.

TV through social media, through magazines, through posters, and out

of those 3000 images, she would see every single one of them would've

been photoshopped in some way.

So it, it's this industry which presents an unreality, which is so far distorted

from what is actually going on.

I think it's criminal in many ways.

Um, and it was like you, I, I felt the need to sort of.

Challenge that, uh, when I was in the beauty industry and it's not easy.

So I, I think good on you for doing it because I think

it's a competitive industry.

I think it definitely needs challenging.

I think there is so much wrong with it, and there are some.

Corporations who I think should be taken to task.

Uh, but you know, that's just me, you know?

I'll get off my soapbox now, Millie, but I, I, I think I, I think good on

you for doing it and, and well done.

And I, and keep going because I think it'll make a

difference to people, you know?

And, um, and if you can make a living out of it, great.

Uh, I, I, I think that would be great.

the ultimate thing.

Like I think if I didn't get messages every day from people telling

me important what I'm doing is.

And how game changing it is.

And thank you.

And you know, from that was ultimately the best thing that came from Dragons

then so far, is the messages I receive from people telling me how much

the representation and me speaking up means to hundreds of people.

Um, if it wasn't for that, you know, because you could say, you know, a lot

of people see it, it's just makeup, but it's so much more than that.

If it wasn't for all that love, I probably, I have even, I have

thought about giving up and.

Yeah.

into my policy style thing.

'cause the beauty industry is so, toxic and who, who you know, not what you know.

And it is

Hmm.

so many barriers to entry, but I'm not giving up yet.

No, don't definitely keep going.

And, um, I, I, I keep telling us your story 'cause I think

it's, it's super inspiring.

Millie, if people wanna reach you, if they want to connect with you, what's

the best way for them to do that?

I.

Uh, yeah.

On LinkedIn, it's Millie Flemington-Claire, um,

uh, through my Instagram.

It's @humanbeautyldn.

And we have a contact to us, uh, form on my website at www.humanbeauty.co uk.

Fantastic.

We'll of course link to all of those in the show notes and if you found our

conversation helpful, uh, today, then make sure you are subscribed to the newsletter.

'cause all of the notes, links and stuff will come in the

newsletter as well as a bit more.

Deep dive into this sort of stuff.

We always try and throw a lot more extra value into the newsletter.

So if you want to know all of those little bits, uh, make

sure you're subscribed to that.

But Millie, thank you.

Uh, one thing I should probably ask you actually before we close out the

show, um, I like to ask guests, I think I mentioned this to you, I like

to ask guests for a question which I then will go and weigh and, and answer

on social media, just slowing down my words to make sure I phrase that right.

Uh, what's your question for me?

Um, if you had, uh, one piece of advice for someone kind of in my.

Position starting out in a competitive, competitive industry, uh, what

would your advice be in terms of like growing and keeping going?

Fantastic.

Well, I will answer that question.

If you wanna know how I'm gonna answer it, come follow

me on LinkedIn, Matt Edmundson.

Uh, and I will, I will post the answer there.

But Millie, it's been an absolute joy and a real treat, um, chan to you.

And thank you so much and I wish you every best, uh, every best.

I wish you the best with every end ever.

Uh,

uh, going forward.

It's, it's, it's lovely to see, um, actually.

People wanting to use business to make a difference rather than just

people wanting to use business to make a shared load of money.

Not they have.

I don't have necessarily an issue with that, but I think actually thinking

about the human cost and the human benefit on the way is super important.

So thank you for reminding us, uh, of that.

Thank you for having me.

Well, there you go.

That's it from me.

That's it from Millie.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.

Bye for now.