The number one characteristic used by families to describe a loved one

who's passed away is the word stubborn.

It's the most common word that we hear.

And I began to realize there's probably a reason why.

and most of the time, no one in the family was courageous enough, willing enough,

open enough to peel back some of the layers and go, why was dad so stubborn?

What truly matters at the end of a life well lived?

Join us as we explore this profound question with Wayne

Previtt, a distinguished executive life celebration coach.

Wayne, a Canadian that is now in Lynchburg, Virginia, has

orchestrated over 50 events.

Four thousand life celebrations and funerals, gleaning unique

insights into life's true priorities and lasting legacies.

the founder of several impactful ministries and a coach, he

empowers individuals to mark life's significant moments.

With heartfelt ceremonies today, we'll explore Wayne's journey and the deep

wisdom he shares about what people cherish most in the wake of loss.

Alongside his advice on living a life that truly celebrates every moment.

welcome to Seek, Go Create.

Fantastic, Tim.

Thanks so much.

So glad to be with you.

Looking forward to it.

we haven't known each other that long.

We met, had a lunch together at a conference in Sarasota,

Florida few weeks ago.

And man, I loved our time together.

I do too.

And I mean, we talked about some things and I said, man, we need, we

need to record this kind of stuff.

first question, kind of deep, but yes, kind of one I like

to get started off with.

you prefer answering the question, what do you do or who are you?

Pick it and go ahead and answer.

I don't like those questions.

What do you do?

I run away from them.

Screaming is usually how I respond to them.

I don't like titles and I don't like positions.

And yet I realized we live in a society that lives and dies by those.

The problem with that is, is that we have a tendency with our preconceived notions,

presuppositions, paradigms, whatever you want to call them, we put people in a box.

And I don't want to be boxed in.

I want a little bit of liberty, a little bit of freedom.

I asked this question and I challenged our good friend Vincent the other day.

You do one of these on conferences again, Vincent.

Don't, don't put that out there.

Don't even make that a go to opportunity.

You tell people you can't come to my conference if you're going to ask,

where do you live and what do you do?

We're defined by character.

We are not defined by title, because title changes, positions change.

But character, for the most part, kind of remains the same throughout the journey,

unless we have a major course correction.

And sometimes tragedy, sometimes loss, sometimes joy, sometimes birthday,

sometimes certain circumstances in life has a tendency for us to be able

to make some character adjustments.

But, you know, you talked about the fact that I've done a lot of life celebrations,

I've done a lot of funerals, and I think I shared with you at lunch that day, we

end the journey with a handful of words.

That's how we end.

And one of those handful of words never includes your title, your position.

It just never does.

Jeremiah had a phenomenal word to the people of the day, if you know Jeremiah.

And it was simply this, let not the wise man boast of his wisdom, or the

strong man boast of his strength, or the rich man boast of his riches.

You can also, you can add to that, don't let your title

be the thing you boast about.

But what are you going to boast about?

You're going to boast about this, because you're allowed to boast.

We're going to boast about the fact that I know God.

And that he is a god of justice and righteousness.

And justice and righteousness, Mishpah and Zedekah, are character words that only

manifest themselves in a relationship.

And that's the question that needs to be answered.

The character of an individual is what we see anyway.

You could have the greatest CEO, CFO.

I don't care.

You can have the title.

You can be master coach of the universe, but be an absolute moron in terms

of love and patience and kindness.

Do you know what I mean?

Like that falls apart for me at that point in time.

So don't lead with your title lead with what's on the, really the cuffs of

your shirt and that's your character, your kindness, your generosity.

I love people.

And one of those things that I love about people is I love

the opportunity in the moment.

I'm a moment specialist.

My superpower is to be present in a moment.

And in that moment, I believe that we have this incredible opportunity

to speak words of encouragement.

Sometimes they're words of exhortation.

Sometimes they're words of empowerment.

And I believe that that's what defines me.

And that's how I want to be defined, and that's how I want to be remembered.

I want to be able to equip you.

I want to be able to encourage you.

I want to be able to empower you And the receptivity of the spirit matters

a lot for that individual, but I gotta tell you Tim we are a world desperately

longing to be seen and we're a world desperately longing to know that somehow

some way I matter to somebody and when we are Present in someone's life

There's something powerful about that

There's, there's so much that you brought up in there.

I made about three or four notes and I, I, I agree with, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Let's, uh, that's a word that I try not to use, but I think unpack

is actually a good word for that.

There are a lot of things there, but I think the first question that I

want to ask is as someone who does these celebrations, and we're going

to talk a little bit more about that here in just a few seconds.

How are you doing?

How are you doing with that?

I know you said you mentioned your superpower is being present.

I agree with you because we had a lunch with, you know, there were 100

people around us, but truthfully, you and I were the only two people

in the room for, you know, 30, 30, 45 minutes or something like that.

I would, I would.

Agree.

We even had a nice young lady that was at the table with us.

And at times she wasn't even there between the two of us, I think,

which might have been rude of us.

But, How are you doing?

Because one of the things I'm going to ask shortly is what do people

say at the end of their lives?

What, what is important and you know, you and I are, we've got a

lot of, a lot of years ahead of us.

But we're also at a stage where we're asking, have we achieved and accomplished?

Have we done those things that we want to do?

So when you, when you kind of look in the mirror and say, Wayne, you're doing good.

You're not so good.

What, how are you doing when you measure some of those things?

Yeah, that's a horribly unfair question, so I love it.

here's the absolute present moment reality.

And that is on Monday, I turned 65.

And so it's coming up.

So I'm 64 right now.

I turned 65 on Monday.

And I am stuck navigating that.

When I was 49, I made a list of 50 things I wanted to do before I turned 50.

I went hard.

I got 49 down.

I didn't get all 50 down, but I got 49 down.

And then I threw a massive party for myself on my 50th.

I got to 60.

I kind of went, eh, whatever I'm 65.

And you know, it is there's societal pressure.

There's expectations of, and literally yesterday, I'm not lying, literally

yesterday, somebody said to me, Well, you remind me of one of my geriatric

patients, and I thought, that is absolutely unbelievable that someone

would say that right now in this moment.

Talk about not reading the room.

Talk about not being present.

They didn't mean any harm by it, but it just causes you to go, what the heck?

I don't want to be a geriatric patient.

I don't even know what that means, but it sounds like it's an old

person is what it sounds like.

So yeah, where am I at right now?

I am stuck navigating that.

And it's not because of regret, Tim.

It's because I want to finish strong.

One of the things that I've learned so well out of walking away from so many life

celebrations and thousands of funerals.

And that is that almost inevitably I will sit in the car at the end of it and I will

do a quick assessment and say, I have got a lot of room to be better at who I am.

When you bump into peoples whose story is kindness and generosity and patience

and thoughtfulness, that the privilege of leading a lot of funerals for homeless

and the prostitutes and drug addicts.

spent multiple years, my wife and I working just in the inner city.

And one of the things that I discovered about the homeless was their generosity.

It was completely the opposite of my paradigm.

And we sat in this room of a handful of people and we eulogize this

woman who was a, who was homeless and a prostitute and a drug addict.

And the only word spoken about her was her generosity over and over and over again.

One, I confess to God and apologize for my horrible spirit

towards those who are homeless.

And then secondly said, I've got an abundance and I will not come

close to that being word spoken about me at the end of my life.

And I need to step up my game.

And I think when you hit milestone birthdays, and I think 16th milestone

21 is, and I think 65 is, you know, And the narrative is, oh, I

guess you're going to retire now.

No, I'm not.

I'm going to press the gas pedal and I'm going to move forward.

And my prayer is, my hope is, is that I'll finish strong.

And that includes my marriage being better.

It includes me being better as a father.

It includes me being better as a leader.

We have a thousand people that are in our organization.

It just means I've got room for improvement and I can start to

etch in the headstone of life.

The words that I want to be remembered by.

And those are character words.

So, there's my honest answer.

I'm stuck, but I'm tenacious and I know that I will push forward and I believe

I'm going to be victorious in all of this.

Are you, are you anxious about being stuck or is it just a

descriptive word that describes it?

Cause some people would get all anxious and attempt to, put their hand to the plow

and make things happen, blah, blah, blah.

had, we might discuss it in a moment.

I had quite a long conversation with the Lord this morning, woke me up early.

I heard a knock.

I literally heard a knock at 530 a. m. and I'm not in the mode of getting up early.

And I kind of woke up and I said, Hmm, I think I need to

get up and have some quiet time.

But are you anxious about being stuck or it just is what it is.

I don't, I don't think I'm anxious.

I don't think I know what to do.

don't think I know how am I supposed to act different?

Am I supposed to be different?

Am I supposed to wind down?

I think there's all these things that are just noise of the world and noise

of society and noise of expectations.

I also don't want to be set aside.

And I think a lot of that has to do with my age and a lot of what

I saw in my generation growing up.

I literally watched people come to this milestone of life, and they

were kind of shed on, set on a shelf.

And I literally remember with such clarity, and this is probably

what it comes back to, somebody saying one day, it's time for now

the seniors to step aside and let the younger generation take over.

And everything theological about me, in my understanding, is that is not true.

If anything, my theology teaches me it's a great time for the

older to teach the younger.

I'm game for that, but I don't find a lot of young people standing in line

going, Hey, wise guy, old dude, you know, geriatric patient, teach me some

things that I need to know in life.

And maybe if that was true, maybe there would be a greater

sense of worth and value.

And I think that that's what it's connected to.

So no, not anxious, hopeful that.

There is a tomorrow, and a tomorrow, and a tomorrow, and a tomorrow.

But I don't get stuck usually, and I feel stuck.

And I don't know if that's the right word, but that's where I feel right now.

But not, not despaired.

Yeah, I've often wondered, this is a question that's been going through my mind

some, we're in a world where, you know, social media, your platform, you and I

met with a great group of people, about a hundred people that were gathered together

that are memberships or platforms to, you know, share whatever it is they do.

And I'm sure you and I were there because we, I sort of believe the

same thing and we love the people that we were able to hang out with.

But one of the things I've thought through recently, we're in a 55 and

older community here down in Arizona.

I've

Okay, yeah.

few episodes, and this has been a bit of a theme, so it's really good

we're having this discussion, Wayne.

two episodes ago, episode 301 was Jim Cook, he's a Silicon Valley vet. One

of the original founders at Netflix, he is a couple years younger than me,

but he's still at a stage in life where he's got a lot of wisdom and younger

people should be seeking him out.

Mike Baer, last episode, I believe if I'm getting the order right, was about

to celebrate his 70th birthday, and he's been a mentor to me in many ways.

30 years ago, we coached and we were talking about how to transfer wisdom and

knowledge and all to a younger generation.

And that's sort of the theme here,

Yeah,

one of the things I've thought about, and I'll mention a word to you and you could

respond is I think many of us have wanted to have impact and another word that ties

into that is we want to be significant.

We want to have significance with what we do and, and we don't want to, you

Hopefully not do it with arrogance.

We want to do it with humility and all.

That's something that I've struggled with a little bit.

But I think what I'm a little bit concerned about is becoming

Not, not insignificant.

necessarily passing away.

I mean, I, I kind of know that story.

I know what happens there, but I'm not sure about what's between here and there.

When I bring up that word insignificance, what does that do to you?

When I say, what happens if the two of us, 10 years from now, we meet up

at a coffee shop the only thing we've done in the last 10 years is just, I

don't know, hang out, play pickleball.

They play pickleball down here all the time.

That's what everybody does.

Yeah, I've never played pickleball.

I think I'd be pretty good at it, but I've never played.

athletic.

I bet you would be

I played a lot of hockey and that's why my body's in such horrific pain all the time.

Insignificant.

Now I, you know why that's not going to happen?

Because my significance is not based in title, it's not based in

position, it's based on people.

So I can't lose significance, Tim.

Influence or inspiration or impact, which are three core

values that Rosanna and I live by.

We actually measure the success of our encounters with humans

based upon those three things.

Did we in that moment offer, some inspiration?

Were we impactful in their life?

And did we do something that might be influential enough that they

leave the encounter with us and go and do something of greatness?

And that's why life celebrations are so perfectly positioned for us.

And that's not the only thing we do, but in those moments, they, all

three of those things can happen.

You've never been to a wedding where there's not some kind of inspiration.

You're either inspired to love the person sitting beside you more, or you see how

much the couple don't like each other.

And you're inspired to, you know, end your relationship, get a divorce and move on.

I don't know.

Typically you're inspired.

And most people don't go to a funeral without something happening in their life.

So no, I can't lose significance.

It's not, it's not possible because I, I measure it in terms of human encounter.

It's the volume of, or the number of opportunities.

So the context in which that is in the context now is smaller for me

than it used to be because I'm not doing events the way I used to.

We now train and certify equipment and power people to do events.

And when we stopped doing that several years ago, we both felt that massive void.

but it didn't change or challenge or question our significance.

It changed the context.

So now I look for it in other ways.

And I am very much, I am a moment, man.

I, my best work is in the moment.

When I encounter you at a crossroad of life, because

every encounter is a crossroad.

If I encounter you, Tim, at the crossroad of life, The longing of my heart is what

can I possibly do to inspire you to become everything that God's designed you to be?

And no one could take that from me.

Not age, not lack of hair.

Cause I don't have any.

have you always been that way, Wayne, or if not, when were you first aware

that that was your superpower, that was something that was for the character

you are, that focus on the present?

Sitting in the chair of a psychotherapist room

and I shared a story of abuse, physical, emotional, spiritual,

And she looked at me and she said,

she said, I am so excited for the little boy, Wayne, who was given

the powers by God and the grace of God to navigate the impossible.

And out of that came What Dr. Dennis Shackle, he's head of

an Ivy, Ivy school of business.

He said to me one day, I've never met anyone whose proxemics

is as in tune as yours is.

And the psychotherapist was able to say, because you had to learn

to navigate the impossible.

So I would say I've been that way as a child since a child,

but it took a long time in life.

I was well into my thirties probably, or if not early forties by the

time Dr. Shackle was able to come along, and he put some pieces to it.

Now I'm in my fifties before as a psychotherapist.

Puts the rest of the pieces together, and I decided I'm going to step into that.

Because I believe that I am where I am today because God gave me the Ability

and the protection and the grace to be able to become that kind of a person that

sees I I literally Can't help myself I'm standing at a cash at target the other

day and the depth of despair and the cashier led me to tears I mean, I was

just heartbroken And everything inside of me I want to reach over and hold her

and say I don't know what happened to you either in the past or today, but

you need to know that you are loved.

so yeah, I, I, it goes way, way back, but I mean, I, you don't make sense of

it when you're nine 11 or 12, you're still clamoring to get through life.

Right.

I can hardly wait to get out of the household.

Yeah,

and when I did, I was so wounded, I'm wounding everybody else that's around me.

And then you grow and you change and you develop and you strengthen and.

I think that answers your question, but it came as a result of great

people like yourself coming along and going, I see this.

I don't know if I understand why I see this, but I see this, but this amazing,

wonderful, extraordinary friend of mine, who's a psychotherapist for the

first time ever didn't join my sorrow.

She celebrated my victory and that Tim changed my life.

So what's interesting about that, tell me if this is a

correct or incorrect observation.

almost appears as if your ability to focus on the present almost this

protective bubble that was around you because of things happening around you.

My wife has a similar story.

I think I was in a safer environment growing up.

So, you know, I walk in a room and I see a hundred people, I'm like a hundred people.

Yeah.

fascinating, you walk in a room and you probably see one at a time,

man, dude, I can instantaneously, instantaneously, instantaneously,

you'll find me standing in a corner and I peruse the room.

And there's two reasons why one of an introvert.

And secondly, there's just something about that part of me in my life

that knows for a fact with a hundred people in that room, there are one

or two people whose pain is so deep.

It, it, it drives some people nuts and I am, I've learned to be very,

very sensitive, but there are times when somebody will tell their whole

life story in a very brief moment.

We didn't even finish breakfast and I had a server in Alabama.

Tell me that she was abused, sexually abused, physically abused.

She's now gone through a divorce and she's found Jesus Christ and she's trying to

learn what the Bible has to say for her.

And she's so lost and so confused and all of this happened by the time my,

my eggs were finished and the plate was taken away and she came back and she

sat down and she cried and she looked at Rosanna and I, and she said, can

you help me become more like Jesus?

And it's in those moments that you realize that's, What the cry I think

of the heart of most people is.

So yeah, you, I learned proxemics so that you could control the environment of an

angry father, or Abuse in the household in other ways that the spiritual abuse I grew

up with, I told you a little bit about it.

Some really dark spiritual abuse backgrounds where the word of God

and principles of the word of God weren't as important as the rules of

the church and the rules of the house and the rules of everything else.

And so rules driven that we missed out on the grace of God.

And yet somehow God poured so much grace on me that I never became bitter.

I never became angry.

I was just heartbroken and confused.

And then I began to realize that wow, around me are so many people

and it might not be spiritual abuse.

It might even be physical abuse.

It might simply be the fact that they're just desperately lonely

in a world of 7 billion people.

So yeah, it is a protective bubble and sometimes somehow, some way, I think it's

okay for us to walk up to someone's little bubble and go, I'm not going to break it.

I'm not going to bust it, but I want you to see that on the outside of your bubble

is actually somebody here right now.

that's willing to love you and accept you.

We all need redemption.

And that was another key reality for me to overcome.

A lot of things in life was

No one is beyond the redemptive grace of God.

Yeah, and

working with street people for all those years, man, I

gotta tell you, I had to learn.

I had to grow up.

I had to have a better theology.

I'd have a Jesus theology and not a religious theology.

it's interesting you brought up that spiritual or what we can call it

religious This, this could be something that we could, you know, tailspin into

a conversation we may not want to have.

But it's interesting as I look back over my life, I wouldn't be one that dealt

with, I don't think, a lot of abuse.

I have this personality that wouldn't admit it even if I did, which is, there's

other issues there we won't go into.

I'm asking the questions here, so let's keep it on

yeah, absolutely.

So we'll, we'll keep the focus on me right now.

I have looked back over the course of my 61 years and have gone through

some difficult things business wise, relationships, different things like that.

If I were to rank, and it's not good to rank abuse situations, that's not a good

thing to do, but I'm about to do it.

I would say the worst, that damaged my soul more than anything else.

was what many would term spiritual or religious abuse that I experienced at a

very mature age in a Bible school setting.

Because it's the thing that still creeps back and rolls into my head and my psyche

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

And I kind of

yeah.

that, I'm not taking anything away from those that have gone through physical,

Yeah.

I mean,

No, I hear you.

stuff

hear you.

I hear you.

that stuff can do a number on you, correct?

Oh, it does.

Very, very good friend of mine.

We grew up together, went to the same church together, lived

in the same context together.

He actually described our upbringing as being a part of a cult.

And it was just a Baptist church, but he said, no, no, he said,

honestly, Timmy, it manifests the same characteristics of a cult.

And I looked at him and I said, you know, give me a break, Bob.

And he goes, no, no, no.

Let me walk you through it.

So he walked me through it and I went, holy crap.

I mean, I, I don't want to say I was part of a cult and he goes, well,

we don't have to say that we can say we're a part of Baptist church.

But at the end of the day, the manifestations of it were very cult like,

but control, control of people, control of people, for the sake of the image.

And I agree with you.

so his perspective is abuses, abuses, abuse.

So you can't measure one against another.

It's context, it's experience.

It's the journey of life.

I just happened to have all three.

So when I speak of emotional, spiritual, physical abuse, I

actually experienced all three.

So never loved, never hugged, never said I love you.

emotional abuse is just manipulation, just shame and manipulation for

their image, for mom and dad's image, not for Jesus image or my image.

And then the religious aspect of it.

I went right from, I was born on a Wednesday, went to the church

nursery on a Sunday and never left.

Went out to Bible school.

The Bible school was exactly the same as my home church.

They had exactly the same manifestations and Never do anything different until

I hit about 23 years of age I guess and I just sat down one day and and

I just I just sobbed I just started to cry because I've been in Bible

school reading the Word of God going I can't find I Can't find some of

this stuff that you keep telling me.

I got to do to be righteous I can't find it and then I went holy crap.

You lied to me You You've lied to me and you've told me stuff that

you think was spiritual and godly.

And you lied to me.

I, my hair can be over my ears.

That's,

I can't hold hands with somebody and they're not going to get pregnant.

You lied to me.

You can't tell me those lies anymore.

And I had this moment of incredible revelation.

And again, this is this divine aspect.

Put into me when I was a child.

So here's this protective bubble again goes on me.

And for the first time ever, and I gotta tell you, that's catastrophic.

You break that bubble when the only thing you've ever known is spiritual abuse?

I was left devastated.

I mean, that's a faith crisis right there.

Like a massive faith crisis.

I'm like, okay, I'm out.

And I could hear the voice of God saying, you're not going anywhere.

I got you and I'm going to redeem you.

And I'm going to speak to you and I'm going to give you wisdom and

discernment and truth and understanding.

And it's going to revolutionize your life.

It's just going to tick off a lot of other people.

And it did.

I would basically cast out family, church, college, and everything.

a, would that have been like a deconstruction that we use that word today

I hate that word with an incredible passion.

I hate it with it's disgusting.

But at the end of the day, it is,

it describes some

know,

this

it's

about.

perfect.

If I, if you look that word up in the dictionary, my,

my bald head is right there.

People are like, Oh yeah, that guy went through that.

I know that guy went through that.

Here's the problem.

Most of my friends, colleagues never did.

Like, like never did.

So I'm not angry that they didn't, but they never did.

And they stayed in the system.

They stayed in the, the trough, so to speak.

They stayed in the, the routines, the structures that were there.

And I will never, ever criticize the power of the Word of God.

And that's the irony of it was, so Bible based.

And so told over and over and over again in Sunday school and in youth group and

in Bible school The Word of God matters.

The Word of God matters.

The Word of God matters.

I memorized it.

I took it to heart I memorized copious amounts of it.

I took Greek Hebrew.

I became prolific in the Word of God studied You know got master's

degrees working on a doctorate degree And it was in that moment.

I realized I'm reading the Word of God going.

I can't find some of this stuff Like I can't find it And it was in that moment.

So here's the irony of it, right?

Listen, Wayne, trust the Word of God.

I did, and when I read it, guys, you know what I found out?

You guys told me some stuff that just wasn't true.

Chuck Swindoll wrote a book called The Grace Awakening, and we were told

never read it when I was in seminary.

Well, every book we were told to never read, I went and read.

And it was that that opened the flood gates in my life.

And I began to cry and I began to realize I am so legalistically driven.

I have no idea what liberty is at all in my life.

The spirit of God said with me with unbelievable clarity, the liberty,

God, the liberty that you need is to find the fences of the, of the word

of God, the absolutes of the word of God, and live right against that fence.

Live right there.

Rest against it.

Lean against it.

Rest in it.

Don't jump over it because you're going to fall off into

the abyss, but stay right there.

And I found green pastures that were a lot bigger than the ones they gave me.

They had my little box.

God had a vast kingdom of greatness.

And I lived in that liberty, but there's consequences to that.

You know,

Family, family don't like you.

yeah, you butt up against some religious spirits or whatever,

Hmm.

Yeah.

like the journey

Mm,

I mean, good gracious, isn't that roughly what he went through when he,

nailed up his thesis on the, wall?

It's like, you know what?

this religious stuff, someone telling me what I should do instead of me

actually reading the word of God and

mm, mm, mm, mm,

so I want to ask that, but then here's the big question.

I mean, dancing has got to be off the table still, right?

You haven't danced, right?

Because that's like a big no, no.

Correct.

It's funny you'd even ask that question.

I'm musical.

I sing, play instruments and I cannot dance.

Like physically you can't or spiritually and emotionally you can't.

Physically I can't, but you know, it has to be because my youngest

has no problem because she's not been raising any abuse at all.

And literally, 22, she looks at me, she goes, It is simply a block in your brain.

And that's how bad it was.

I still see a deck of cards today, and I won't pick them off the table.

Interesting.

They're just pieces of paper.

I guess somebody might respectfully disagree with me,

go, no, they're Satan's tools.

I think they're pieces of paper.

I could probably use them to throw them in a hat maybe or

something to play a game that way.

But this is how deep this stuff gets seated in the spirit.

So because there's such non absolute dishes for me, I

don't lose any sleep over it.

Yeah.

But if you were to ask me to sit down and play a hand of cards,

one, I wouldn't know a single game.

I don't know a single card game at all.

Like not one.

I would love to learn to play poker, but I do drink alcohol.

I drink wine.

I love bourbon a lot.

I smoke cigars.

But at the end of the day, those things I don't mind, but dance, dance.

And I've got rhythm.

I have to come.

I'm a musician.

Music.

So,

but putting on a dance floor.

very good friend of mine.

And she ended up being at this multiple weddings that I had done.

And she was like the guest of the guest.

It was like she was stalking me or something.

It was the most bizarre thing.

Anyway, I ended up doing her wedding, her sister's wedding,

tons of her friends wedding.

Her name is Dana.

And I'm, she's at a wedding and I'm hanging around

cause they asked me to stay.

And you know, I'm eating a meal with everybody and I'm, I'm, I'm with Dana

cause she's become such a good friend and she goes, come on, let's dance.

So I go on the dance floor and I'm trying, she looks at him.

She goes, what the heck is your problem?

She goes, you suck, like suck.

She goes, go and sit down and stay away from me.

I laughed and let Roseanne and I went and took ballroom dancing

one session and we were out.

The instructor came up and said to us, said to her, you can't be led.

She's such a strong woman.

You can't be led and he can't lead you.

And both of you suck.

So I would highly recommend you find a new activity.

Oh my goodness.

Wow.

That is how deep seated it is in the psyche of some people.

no, no,

do I have a problem with dancing?

No, I don't have a problem with dancing.

I grew up in, Baptist culture, Bible Belt of the South, no

problem with dancing at all.

I mean, I was pretty rebellious and sounds like as, as things

started coming across, you were like questioning, questioning, questioning,

which is, which is, I, I believe, I believe it's a good thing to do.

But we, Gloria and I did the ballroom dancing.

We went, I gave it to her as a gift for Christmas.

at Christmas in 2019, we were in Colorado Springs for the

birth of our first grandchild.

We went to one lesson and COVID hit and they told us that we were

going to have to do ballroom dance.

Together with my wife of 30 something years in gloves and masks.

Oh my goodness.

No one else in the room, by the way.

Well, the instructor was there, but she kind of didn't care either.

And we were like going, you know, no, we're not, we're not going to do it.

But we actually heard similar things.

Wayne, this actually might be more, there more to it.

Glory heard.

You know, you don't really want to be led.

You want to lead.

I heard you're just kind of out here doing your own thing and you're

not good at leading her slight man.

This, this isn't freestyle.

This is partner.

And I'm going, man, I'm freestyling here.

I'm ready to get on the floor and do some and bump, you know, I'm

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's

here.

Yeah.

similar story, but no, true, true, true story.

we were encouraged to go and find another, similar kind of, passion

that we could enjoy together.

So,

maybe it's pickleball or something like that,

I did it.

I'll play, I don't know if Roseanna will play or not, but.

so one thing that you brought up earlier, and I think you and I may

have discussed this when we first met, but the world we're in today.

Seems to be obsessed with quantity over quality, and I'll throw a few things

out and I want you to respond to it.

When I say quantity, I mean, how many followers or people are you

influencing on your platform?

How many people are in your sphere or your group or your member

or your or your congregation?

How many people are showing up on a Sunday morning?

What's the number of employees in your community?

Company.

And all of it seems to be related to quantity.

And you have said that your superpower is being present in the moment.

I don't think the two of those can mix together.

I find it hard to believe that, let's just say Joe Pastor, pastoring a church,

I actually spoke to one yesterday, that he's attempting to grow a church,

but he's butting up against this.

you disciple and be present with, you know, 10 people, 5 people?

And also pay all the bills by putting 500 people in the seats.

I know, and I know you and I discussed some as far as challenges

with traditional ministry and all.

This doesn't, it's not just ministry, it's companies and things like that.

But,

how challenging is it for people to deal with large numbers, but still be

present in the world we're in today?

It was easy for us to navigate.

we chose to do weddings and funerals at one point in time.

So we stepped away from our street ministry.

We did it for seven years with twelve people, ran out of money,

shut the doors down, and moved on.

What we moved to was something that we thought was somewhat familiar to

us, and that was, well, why don't we do some weddings and funerals,

because we had no money and no income.

So that's kind of how the thing came, and we were at the right time, right place.

The shift towards secularism was on a rapid, fast track in Canada at that

point in time when we came along.

So it was ideal for us.

And we did 187 weddings that first year.

We did three 50 the next year we did 500.

We built up to 125 people working for us to the point where we were

doing 1800 to 2, 500 weddings a year.

So I did 250 of those myself.

So the volume was there, but the uniqueness of the reality is,

is that I'm front and center.

I'm right there.

You could not get more intimate.

I'm not the photographer with the telephoto lens.

I'm not the DJ at the back of the room.

I'm not the florist who walked away.

I'm not the guy in the kitchen preparing the meal.

All great people playing great roles.

I'm not the bridal planner.

I am actually at the front of, and you know what I'm talking

about, front and center.

I got a view from the front that no one else has.

And it's just the three of us.

I don't even think about anybody else.

I don't think about the Brada party.

I don't think about the hundreds of guests or two guests.

I just, it's just me and them.

And you can't get more intimate than that.

When we do a funeral, it's the same thing.

It's me.

I'm on the stage all by myself, but there might be a hundred people.

I've done funerals for people where there's thousands of people

there, like thousands of people.

But all I see is the family in the front row.

That's all I see.

I really don't see anybody else.

So this, this thing about being present, Tim, it, we can be present.

The problem I have with social media is like, I, I didn't know you.

And if I bumped up to you on social media, you and I would never

have what we're doing right now.

I bumped up to you in person and that's how it works.

And it's, it's, and I mean, literally someone the other day

said to me, okay, boomer, like I, I wanted to come through the screen.

I was like, back off Bambi, right?

You gen Zed little weenie.

Like, you know, you can have all of your 10 million followers on Instagram, but

the depth of emptiness and sadness and loneliness is pervasive and we know it is.

I saw it when a hundred people got together in Sarasota,

Florida, including you and me.

And I looked around the room and I saw pseudo relationships based upon,

and you know what made it amazing?

Listening to people say it is so good to see you in person.

It is so good to meet you face to face It's so good.

You're not on zoom and you're a lot smaller than I thought you were, right?

You have

Or man, you really are tall.

Holy crap.

I didn't know you were six foot nine Like when did that happen?

And the gloriousness of that is true I am that guy that I don't

want to I don't want to pursue likes

I want to be present in people's lives and it's hard with social media and I

right now in consuming copious amounts of books on growing your email list

and growing your sphere of influence.

And I listened to the specialist tell me that I've got to do

social media posts every day.

And I sit and I look at my screen and all I can think about is that I got to get out

of here because I gotta go find somebody right now that's standing somewhere.

what we pray every day, Rosanna and I, before we leave the house

is, you know, what God allow us an opportunity to be used of you in the

encounter of someone else's life today.

And that's how we do it.

And it's really hard to do it.

I despised.

church conferences where pastors again would share

their titles and their numbers.

And I also know this.

I also know that for the most part, most of us fabricate a lot of things.

And we add another zero and another 10 and another 50.

And we, we do it because somehow, some way we believe that our worth

and value is connected to that one.

In fact, it is not at all.

I promise you, I promise you.

that the funeral of the greatest Instagram influencer in the end of

the day, the number of people in her account or his account will never

be spoken about at their funeral.

Never.

Not once.

Well I've never mentioned someone's bank account.

I've never mentioned anything they've accumulated.

Never.

Just goes back to that Jer, Jeremiah nine passage.

We just don't do it.

But how they made them feel.

how they interacted in relationship.

That's all that matters.

And that's what we've got to strive for.

So I think we're on the cusp of, and I just woke up this morning,

like you wasn't a knock at the door, but it was a knock on the head.

And I've got a radio on beside me.

It's four 30 in the morning.

And this guy's talking about how gen Zed and the alpha generation are

moving back to tactile connections.

The Ringing Newspapers.

They're actually going and they're buying journals and they're

writing them with pen and paper.

They're buying albums and putting them on because they can hold

them and they can touch them.

CD players are still available.

People are buying tapes and they're touching stuff and they're feeling stuff.

What is that?

It's a manifestation of the fact that I am so lost and so empty that

I will do anything I possibly can.

They call it, you know, reinventing analog.

Well, we never lost it.

But what it does speak to, I think is this desperate need with inside of our

spirits and our hearts and our souls to be somewhat more tactile than we

possibly could ever be in a world that's become so digital in so many ways.

Yeah, that,

So I don't know if that answers your question, but a wedding and a funeral

are not done unless you're present.

Yeah.

You can do a funeral via zoom.

You can't do any weddings in Canada via zoom.

It's illegal.

You can't do it.

So there's you.

I have to be there.

It's the most glorious thing in the face of the earth.

So any listener listening to this, that's going, I desperately

long to be with people.

Let me put you in that position to go and stand with people

at weddings and funerals.

I'll tell you, it'll change your life because it changes their lives.

Because you

Because you can't do it any other way

and we'll get to this in a little while.

But you teach and train people to do this.

Performing

we've trained thousands

I was just thinking our 30 year old son got all of my

vinyls and he has a turntable.

He lives in his RV too, but he has a turntable with all my vinyls

and truthfully, man, there's some, I'm sure you may not have

been able to listen to him.

There's some good rock and roll stuff in there.

I'm telling you what, there's some

I don't know if you've ever heard of sticks or not.

Have you ever heard of sticks?

a Solomon concert, at the Omni in Atlanta.

Okay, so I went into dorm in seminary and I took my, took my record player

with me and I took my vinyl with me.

And I'm out one day, I'm in class and, and we're living in this, this house.

There's 15 of us in this house and it's like a frat house

and I can hear sticks playing.

And it's my stereo system.

And I had a beast of a stereo system.

It's set up on the window and it's blasting out of the third floor.

And it's just screaming across the, let's just say that it didn't take long.

I went back, the Dean of students came, confiscated all

my albums, took them all away.

And our administrator several years later was a girl named

Marcy and she was a road manager.

So I'm telling her the story and she calls Larry and she goes,

Larry, my boss needs an album.

And she goes and meets them and he signs this thing.

It gets all the guys to sign it.

and all it said on there was, sorry about your seminary, dude.

Yeah.

Sorry you were hanging out with all those religious people that

got rid of your stereo and albums.

The only thing, and I will say, you know, we talked about, you

know, cards could be Satan's tool.

I think eight tracks are satanic.

And if we go back to that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be really ticked off.

Okay.

to see another eight track.

I'm with you.

I, I do like my cassettes though because I can get my pencil in

there and I can tighten them up.

I,

Right?

I liked making, mixtapes, I guess is the word,

Mm.

a

Mm mm.

player and I could make some jams.

I'm telling you what,

Well, I would record off the radio, right?

Yeah.

Remember?

about half the people that were listening, Wayne.

Sorry, people just dropped off when they said we recorded stuff off the radio.

Oh, man.

You mentioned a couple times putting God in a box, and when I wrote box,

I wrote it right beside you being a chaplain and going through, I don't

know, 4, 000 plus, is that an okay number that you've probably officiated?

Yes.

There was a word that you shared with me when we had lunch that you

said it was the word that was most commonly as a descriptive word

of people that had passed away.

do you remember what that word was?

Stubborn.

Stubborn.

I wrote it down right here.

those that are still listening, is that the word you want to be used to describe,

to describe you upon your demise?

what else can you tell us?

We've got a few minutes left here and I want to go over some of the things

you're working on now and what you could do to maybe help people on their path.

But, what are some other just like key things you could share that you've learned

from officiating all those services?

Man, there's, it would take forever, but let me, let me do the things

that come to mind instantaneously.

The number one characteristic used by families to describe a loved one

who's passed away is the word stubborn.

It's the most common word that we hear.

And it took me a little bit of time, but not too long.

It took me a little bit of time to dig into that.

And I began to realize there's probably a reason why.

and most of the time, no one in the family, because we're too close to it,

no one in the family was courageous enough, willing enough, open enough

to peel back some of the layers and go, why was dad so stubborn?

you know, classic case in point of a, sitting with a family

and that's all they gave me.

Like, that's all they gave me.

But the son in law's sitting there and he goes, I've actually got a

little bit different perspective.

And he shared this most extraordinary story of how he went over every Friday

and cut his father in law's lawn.

And dad would sit on the front porch with his arms folded, scowling,

never said thanks, never anything.

He did it for weeks and weeks and weeks.

And finally, the last week, just before he passed away, he called

his son in law to the front porch.

I'm shortening the story for you.

And he handed him a Mr.

Big Bar with a smile on his face.

He said, thank you.

He said, in that moment, the son in law realized no one has ever served this guy.

no one could get close to him.

And the family just sat there in shock.

And I said, well, what do you think it was?

And he goes, I believe he was so deeply wounded and so deeply hurt, he put

a bubble of stubbornness around him.

A porcupine like spikiness that said, you'll never hurt me again.

But it took a son in law, an outsider, to come in and go, I think

there's something more to the story.

Stubborn defines someone surviving the 30s, depression.

Stubborn defines a family that grew up in poverty.

When I did the funeral for one of them, I began to realize that poverty

was such a massive part of it.

They were stubborn enough to him to say, I will never be like that again.

And all they did was work and work and work and work and work

and never saw their family.

And something drives these things.

And if we're courageous enough, we can look behind it.

I learned that about standing and talking about people's

lives and people's journeys.

I learned from this that it's the simplest things that matter and we

do not and we cannot live life in a vacuum and we cannot live it alone.

You cannot live in the top of a pole, Simon Stylitis, and have anything

eulogized about you at the end of the day.

Because you fail to live in a relationship and when we fail to live in

a relationship, when we live in wealth or we live in strength or we live in likes

or we live in, in volumes of things that we want to collect and we miss the people.

I got to tell you, none of that stuff will ever be eulogized about

you at the end of the day, ever.

And in terms of couples, I got to tell you, one of the things we

learned so quickly about all of this, this might be a bizarre thing.

We don't want to really go down this rabbit hole, but I got to tell you a

couples that live together more than eight years and get married, their

chances, the divorce increased by 85%.

And I got to tell you, we've sat with dozens and dozens, hundreds, thousands

of couples where I've been able to be courageous enough now to look at them and

say, are you sure you want to do this?

Have you had a conversation about expectations that you

think are going to change?

Because we do.

When we marry after we've been together for eight years, we're doing it because

we expect that this event itself will produce some kind of significant

change in the life of the other.

And it's going to be just like it was during the two years of courtship

where the euphoria were so strong and so real that we were dense to

the reality that there was something other than that that might become

a reality two years down the road.

And I learned from that.

I learned a lot from that to be able to have those conversations

with my wife and with Roseanne.

I walk away from weddings and funerals and one of the greatest determinations

of my life is to be a better person.

I know I have to do better.

Hmm.

And that's pretty cool.

That

Not too many other things in life.

I don't literally write a post on Facebook, post it, walk away and

go, I need to be a better husband.

right.

Yeah.

And so it does have that impact and that significance that we

think it has to.

No, I, I think it has to.

Yeah, they are the most malleable moments of the human experience.

Birth, death, and marriage.

Hatch, match, and dispatch.

They are the most malleable moments of the human experience.

So one thing, Wayne, before we get off of it, I've got like one or two more

questions we need to wrap up here.

One of the things that's interesting to me is that I believe that I looked

at the word stubborn as a negative.

But the way you just described it, I'm not sure it's a negative

descriptor of the person.

It might be a negative observation that we had about that person.

Did I hear that right?

I think they're still stubborn.

Oh, okay.

But it's not as much of a negative as we thought?

Maybe?

It's still negative.

Okay.

But why don't we take a little bit of time to figure out what's behind it?

It didn't take long.

when I bump into a 20 year old who's deemed stubborn, which

has actually never happened.

But if I were to do that, I would probably be able to pull the back

of the curtain and look at abuse.

we manifest, our character manifests a lot of our experiences.

Let's just be honest.

And at the end of the day, I hear stubborn a lot I hear it all the time.

But I now no longer draw conclusions.

Oh, well, they're just obstinate bitter miserable human beings that should have

got their act together I now look at it and go maybe there's a lot more of the

story than anyone ever know Or does know And when you start to dig in a little

bit of do you begin to realize why?

Hmm.

Yeah, and I'm some unbelievable stories like some absolutely

unbelievable overcoming stories That happened to produce a character

of protective stubbornness that was placed within their lives.

So, I don't jump to those conclusions as much as I used to.

And I think that's a good thing.

Right.

I think we need to learn that skill set.

Let's not conclude too quickly.

We might not have all of the pieces of the puzzle that form the picture that we have

or the image that we've created for you.

Let's, let's give a little grace and maybe let's find out

a little bit more information.

quick question.

they can still be stubborn, though.

quick sidebar question.

I'm hearing something that sounds like scratching.

Is that coming from your end?

I didn't think you could hear it.

uh, you've got man's best friend there with you that is digging

a hole underneath your desk.

Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah.

I don't know what it is.

Is there some kind of divine thing that God places in dogs?

We talk, he squeaks.

Like, what the heck?

All right.

Well, we're,

Anyway, I apologize.

we're gonna have to leave it in, so the listener, I just

want the listener to know that,

Listeners should know that it's not me, it's not my stomach,

it's not anything other than that my dog has got this squeaker.

not to be crass,

like that with this

no, no, no.

hey, Wayne, what type person Does it take to do what you do to

officiate weddings and funerals?

what type person you say should reach out to you if they would be

interested in, in learning more?

You know, the ideal person, Tim, is the individual who finds

themselves naturally at crossroads of life, wanting to serve people.

I believe that's how broad it can be.

Yeah,

I believe that if you see yourself as somebody that wants to serve

others, then this is an incredible opportunity to be able to do it.

and,

of the time, pastors never do it because it's more obligatory than it is blessing.

And we just saw it as a blessing.

We just realized that for most people, they don't have someone

to serve them at these crossroads.

And we just said, you know what?

We want to be there.

Sign me up.

I want to be there.

And literally thousands of people have come with us.

There's a lot of people that shouldn't be there.

right,

They're there for the wrong reasons.

They're there because they want to be a standup comic.

They're there because they want their name in lights.

They're there because they feel like they're God's gift to the universe.

You got to look at it and go, no, that's not why you're there.

You're there to serve them.

So if inspiration is a part of who you are, you love inspiring

people, do a wedding and a funeral.

There is no better opportunity to inspire people.

Hmm.

think of, again, think about the malleability of the heart.

People are on the edge of their seat at a wedding.

People renew their vows at a wedding.

You start the vows and you see arms go around hands are held tears run

down people's cheeks You get to then I now pronounce you husband

or wife people are jumping up and down and there's this celebration

That's powerful.

That's life changing That's influential.

That's impactful And I believe that anybody who has those kind

of inspiring passions within their life impactful passions.

They need to be here We need a lot more passionate people

so they don't have to necessarily be a preacher, pastor, or

no, actually, they're the,

all that kind of stuff's good?

it's best to have people come to us who have no baggage, no previous,

I don't think I know anybody like that.

most pastors, but,

But,

I say it because I lived in that world for years, full time pastor for years.

thing about this, and, and again, this goes to the motive.

It's not about the money, but there is money involved.

Correct.

This is a business, right?

Is there, I mean, there's a business component to this, correct?

Well, yeah, we've made millions officiating weddings.

I mean, you just don't get it.

just think about it, right?

We're doing a couple of thousand weddings a year at 500 each kind of thing.

You do the math.

certainly we're, we're paying people to be a part of that, but year after

year after year after year, and we know lots and lots of people who are

self sustaining being able to do this.

People are always going to get married.

People always die.

And when babies come along, we now, Our society has replaced everything that we

used to do with babies with gender reveal.

which I got to tell you, I loathe seeing those things pop

I, I'll loathe them too, but you know what?

We are a society that must celebrate.

We are, we are a culture that must celebrate.

Right?

Am I right?

We have to.

Yeah.

and I'll tell you, you know what's happened in the funeral world?

Is because there's no great quality people leading funerals,

people are doing nothing.

Yeah.

They're choosing to do nothing,

so Wayne, I've got one more question and, But before I do that, tell people

if they want to find out more about this chaplaincy role, which is able to

marry and bury and officiate these life events, where can they go to find out more

about this and connect with you on that?

You know, we have so many websites because we're so diverse.

The best thing to do is just Google my name and you'll find

about five on any pages on Google

Okay.

you'll find something in there that will allow you to connect with this either

the wedding world, the funeral world.

We don't usually combine them together, but I believe that if you're doing

weddings, you should be doing funerals.

And if you're doing funerals, you should be doing weddings.

But let's be honest, there are some people wired better.

Rosanna's phenomenal at funerals.

I'm a little unpredictable and that kind of scares people.

I'm concerned.

I would go off script and and and also I'm I'm a I'm a bit of a wing

it, you know I'd like to say I'm moved by the spirit, but it would

Moved by the spirit.

you mention, you know, some people think they're stand up comedians.

I'm going gosh that

Yeah.

you know what I

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

school and they were teaching us how to marry and bury, I said, can

I do one at the same, can I do, can I combine those two services?

And they, they didn't really care for that.

They really, the Bible

What?

did not really like, no, that no sense

see they're out of bounds.

I've done tons of funerals at gravesites.

wow, wow, wow, wow.

all right.

Yeah.

last question.

Tons of weddings at gravesites.

What did I say?

Funerals at gravesites?

I've done tons of weddings at gravesites.

Really?

at gravesites.

Yes, tons.

So, we're gonna, I'm gonna get a couple links for you and we'll put down in

the notes on both YouTube and on, the podcast platform so that someone

can get more info if they want to.

When we had lunch, you commented that you're from Canada, which is already

a post christian nation, you now live in the United States, I think

in Lynchburg, Virginia, and you say that we are close to being that.

If you had a message in about, oh, I don't know, 60 seconds, that you would like to

share with people south of that border, in the lower 48 or United States, about what

post christian and where we're headed.

If you, if I gave you just a little bit of final word before we wrap

here, what would you want to tell us?

Secularism is at your doorstep.

And the first thing you need to do is acknowledge that.

you have to embrace the reality that socialism is, and secularism

is knocking at your door.

Let's just take socialism off.

Let's just talk secularism.

It's at your door.

It's already there and you're surrounded by it.

You can just simply look at the political climate.

You can simply look at a map that's thrown up on TV and you can go, Okay,

well, I kind of see where secularism already has established roots and

they're very firmly, very clear.

And then you can look at other parts of the country, the U.

S. and go, Okay, well, maybe secularism is not there.

It's those group of people that scare me more than anything else.

Because if you live with a sense of naivety, you're going to miss

opportunities of being able to be influential and impactful

and inspirational in a world that desperately needs it.

Secularism, I despise theistic globalism.

I absolutely despise it.

What I believe is that we need to be present in people's lives.

I don't think the answer was to Christianize every nation in the world,

it's to go and preach the gospel, it's to go and share Jesus Christ,

and it's being able to impact people's lives with the truth of Jesus Christ.

Go to all the nations and preach the gospel.

That's the only thing I see that's there.

Doesn't say go to all the nations and make everybody, right, come

on board with what you believe.

So here we are in a world that literally, we're so mad about the

fact that secularism is in such a fast pace that we just circled the

wagons, closed our church doors.

put little barriers around us and said, well, if you don't want to

abide by how we want to do things, we want nothing to do with you.

That's the, that's the worst decision.

And that's what caused Christianity and the church to be completely

non influential in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada.

We closed the doors, circled the wagons and said, sucks.

It's horrible.

It's awful.

I can't believe how bad secularism is.

People won't come to church anymore.

We've done everything we know how to do.

No, you haven't.

Close your doors.

Shut, shut the buildings down.

Get out into where people live.

Get into the hot tubs in your 55 plus community and start

talking about Jesus Christ.

Now I'm dead serious.

Listen, missional communities is the path forward.

Nobody can stop a missional community.

Nobody can stop a Tim and his wife and a handful of other Christians that you

might find around you from influencing people for the kingdom of God.

No one can stop that.

No COVID can stop it.

No political party can stop it.

Nothing can stop it.

But we see these catastrophic things happening.

900 churches a month closing in the U. S. And all I see is a bunch of

people sulking over in the corner.

Going, we're going the wrong way.

You know what?

Shut up.

Maybe it's best for you to shut it down.

Go back out where you belong.

Live life like Jesus did.

And maybe you'll find that you can have an influence.

But, when we live with such delusion, That it's never going to happen.

If we put more energy into globalizing Christianity, we've

got ourself a massive problem.

We are in absolute denial.

It's coming and it's coming with a vengeance in the U S faster

than it ever has in anywhere else that secularism has ever advanced.

We should be afraid of it.

Secularism, Tim, in Canada has allowed us opportunities to talk about

Jesus in the ways that we couldn't back in the seventies and eighties.

We can now talk about Jesus Christ freely.

I'm talking to people in Canada who've never even heard about Jesus Christ.

How cool is that?

I'm in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt in Lynchburg, Virginia.

I'm telling you, 450 churches with 75, 000 people, and there's not a single

person in the city of Lynchburg that believes the message I tell them, not one.

not one, not one pastor, not one Christian I've talked to.

They're like, what do you mean?

Church is fine.

Everything's fine.

Look at all the people come to church.

Okie dokie.

It's good.

Well, it's good.

And I'm not anti church.

I am pro people, not really pro buildings where we gather and hide.

it was a great message.

I appreciate it.

I'm glad I pulled that string because, I did hear a passionate tone in your

voice that I really, really liked.

Um,

of prophetic when it comes to things and it does it annoys some people

but I think there's too much at stake I I really do and I and I mean

that honestly God came to earth.

He didn't need to do that, but he did he came and he said I want you

to do it this way I'm, just going to make it as clear and crystal clear

as I possibly can for you And then we kind of looked at this amazing

example of jesus and went the other way

wow.

were like no, I don't think we're going to do that, you know,

well, why wouldn't you do that?

Do what he did.

5, 10 or 8 people.

I don't know.

Find three people.

Turn the world upside down.

He did.

I love it.

you, Wayne.

Thank you.

That's a great glimpse of the future.

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Wayne mentioned wine and whiskey.

That's

Ooh,

I

bourbon.

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