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I coached a doctor a while ago who
could never manage to leave when

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she was finishing her shift as duty
doctor, because every time she went

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to check on a patient or just go to
the loo, she'd come back and find a

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new prescription she needed to sign.

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Now, it turned out there was a
pharmacist who came in and process

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the prescriptions in the evening
because it suited their schedule.

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And in reality, these prescriptions
didn't need to be signed straight

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away, and it wouldn't have made
a difference to the practice if

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she'd left it for the next doctor.

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But she felt that if she didn't do
it now, it wasn't going to get done,

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and she was worried that somehow
colleagues would think that she hadn't

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done her job if there were loads of
prescriptions left in the morning.

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So this week I'm bringing Corrina
Gordon-Barnes back on the podcast

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to talk about this mindset of
if I don't do it, who else will?

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We look at some real life scenarios
where even the thought of saying no

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would be unthinkable, and Corrina
offers us a thought exercise that

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you can try to get a grip on the real
consequences of setting your boundaries.

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Often they're not as life
and death as we think.

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Now, Corrina will be speaking at our
next FrogFest Virtual event in November,

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so follow the link in the show notes to
book your ticket or catch the replay.

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If you're in a high stress, high stakes,
still blank medicine, and you're feeling

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stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or
getting out are not your only options.

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I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and
welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

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I'm Corrina Gordon-Barnes.

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I am a trainer for Shapes Toolkit
and I am an executive coach.

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Work with lots of different
executive senior leaders, uh, on

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resilience, wellbeing, productivity.

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And all sorts relationships.

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relationships.

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Oh my God.

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It's good to have you back.

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Corrina.

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I've lost count of how many
times you've been on the podcast.

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You're a, a very favorite
FrogFest guest as well.

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You're coming to our next FrogFest
virtual, and um, you are the

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person that I turn to when I
have tricky questions, right?

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So I'm gonna just dive straight into the
tricky question if that's okay, because we

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do lots of training, obviously, on how to
set boundaries, say no deal with pushback,

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'cause in my opinion, this is the only
way that we can protect our time, manage

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our energy, and embrace our capacity
and actually stay performing well.

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So I'm not gonna use the R word, I'm
now talking about protecting your time.

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But of course when we talk
about this, we get pushback.

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We get pushback from people.

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And one of the most common bits of
pushback, either live in the room

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or questions in the chat we get is
something along the lines of, but

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if I don't do it who else will?

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Someone's got to do it.

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Surely I'm just passing stress
onto the rest of my team.

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That's all very well, but you know,
I can't dump on my colleagues.

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So we have some sort of version
of the question, well, if I don't

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do it, no one will, or who else
will or someone else has got to.

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And so you're assuming that what's
happening is you are not doing it,

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therefore somebody else has to you
passing on stress to everybody else.

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And for doctors and healthcare
professionals, who, let's face

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it, a lot of their raison d'être
is to help people, to serve, that

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is just far too uncomfortable.

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And that is where the boundaries
crumble and they can't then protect

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their time and their energy.

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So how would you approach that question?

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Uh, can we just have the
first, the very simple answer?

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One line.

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One line answer that we
can all go home, right?

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Yeah, it's done.

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Uh, it, it was interesting the way when
you were kind of embodying someone asking

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that question, I got a sense of the
panic that can be behind this question.

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Because we are actually talking
about survival situations.

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You know, with healthcare, with
medicine, the stakes are truly high.

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I work with all different industries
and sometimes it's not a life or death

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situation, but in medicine, in healthcare,
it is life and death situation,

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uh, often that we're dealing with.

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So I think that's the first thing
to acknowledge, just how much you

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are carrying to even be asking
the question and how natural and

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understandable the panic, the fear
response is given those stakes.

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And I think that's really important,
'cause we don't wanna bypass the reality

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of what we're actually talking about.

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These are, these are patient lives.

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And you know, as a patient, I would
love for all doctors to say yes all the

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time to everything and all healthcare
professionals to say yes all the time to

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everything so that we have this completely
24/7 service where everyone's health

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is being taken care of all the time.

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And healthcare professionals
are humans and they have limits.

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And actually, I don't want a
depleted, burnt out healthcare

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professional in front of me.

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That's not good either.

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So I think it's really important to
see that inaction can cause life and

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death situations, but also burnout
can cause life and death situations.

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So by people over functioning
and being over responsible,

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there is also a danger in that.

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So I think that's really important.

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I think it's also really important that
we acknowledge how much people are caring

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about their colleagues, that people are
not selfish, uh, isolated, like, islands.

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They're thinking about, wow, we as a
collective, how on earth are we surviving

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this ridiculous, impossible system?

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I'm, you know, I care about my
colleagues, so well, I'm just gonna

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put myself kind of down the bottom
of the list and, and do the thing so

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that other people are gonna be okay.

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And it's an overused metaphor,
but of course, we're not then

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putting on our own life mask.

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And I absolutely acknowledge a
lot of these are life and death

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situations, but most of them aren't.

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Yeah,

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of them are, most of them aren't.

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I think in healthcare, we like
to think we are so important.

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We are so important that everything
we do has a potential consequence.

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But it doesn't.

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And I, you know, I can talk about
the poll I've done, I mean, know a

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thousand times in different talks
and things like that is, you know.

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What, what will the consequences be of not
saying no, you know, what's stopping you?

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And when I've asked them, and we can
talk about some of the other things

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that stop us in a minute, but less than
20% of people have said it's because

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it would cause severe harm to patients.

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And when you think about all the, the
decisions and the times, you're gonna

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say no in a, in a routine day, I, I would
think it's definitely less than 20% of

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those would cause direct patient harm.

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Now, almost any decision in
healthcare you could probably

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extrapolate to have dreadful causes.

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So, you know what, if you, um, I dunno,
don't answer the phone at the right

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time, then someone could be really
ill and they can't been able to access

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the surgery and then they might die.

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Or what happens if, the on-call
list accidentally forgets to phone

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somebody back then this, then this.

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So you can sort of, everything in
healthcare you can extrapolate to, and

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that could have a dreadful consequence.

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But the ones that actually have the
immediate consequences, very few.

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And connected to that is the fact
that because we evolutionarily,

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have these instincts around the
tribe, the group, the community.

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It can feel like life and death
when it's actually that someone's

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gonna be a bit pissed off with us.

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And so that does still feel like
life and death, because it feels like

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we're gonna be disapproved of, we're
gonna be disliked, we're not gonna

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feel part of the community, we're
not gonna feel full part of the team.

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And so we do overextend and over function
in order to get people's approval.

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And that's, that is such a beautiful
area to work on within ourself,

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within our own personal growth.

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Can I sit with the discomfort of
that person's really annoyed with me?

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That person thinks I'm
not pulling my weight.

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When in reality what's happening is I'm
just checking in with myself, finding

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that I don't have the resources to
do the thing, and just naming that.

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You know, it's like I've gone
to my car, I know that I've

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got a journey to Manchester.

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I've gone to my car.

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There's not the petrol in the
tank, and I know there's no petrol

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station between here and there.

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So I'm simply reporting, i've checked in.

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I don't have the availability for that.

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It's not personal.

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I just don't have that right now.

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So I'm gonna say no because that's
the honest answer based on my

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availability and my capacity.

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I think that is one of the underlying
problems actually, and it's this, this

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question has got so many layers in it.

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Is it, doesn't it?

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Because yeah, that's really logical.

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I've checked in.

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I don't have the capacity.

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If only we were like a car.

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If only, if only we did actually
have like on our foreheads a little

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thing going full empty, full empty.

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Then not only would we know, but
everyone else would know as well.

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I think the problem is in healthcare,
a lot of us don't know when we're empty

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and we are so used to running on empty
that it, it feels, it feels normal.

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So then we are, fool ourselves
into thinking that I'm running

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on empty, but actually no, I
do have feeling in the tank.

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Therefore, I'm just saying no on a
whim and that feels really selfish.

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And so in that then it would be a
matter of, um, developing more inner

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awareness of what does feel like
full and what does feel like empty.

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We in the Shapes Toolkit have that lovely
exercise where we have participants

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actually rate different aspects.

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And we do use a, like a,
a petrol gauge, don't we?

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Like a, a fuel tank full?

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A fuel tank empty.

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And it could be that, that becomes
a really important practice for

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people just to have a snapshot now
and again of, hang on, where am I

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with my, you know, my compassion.

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Like for a lot of people, that's
how they know that they're depleted

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is when they don't have compassion.

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They have that empathy, that
compassion fatigue where they just

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don't actually care anymore, which
feels so horrendous to someone whose

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whole profession is around caring.

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I don't actually give a shit
really, because I'm so depleted.

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So that can be a real red flag for people
when they start to feel that going down.

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And then just, yeah, energy level,
you know, brain power capacity.

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There's a, to develop ways of
self-analyzing and self-assessing.

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Do I actually have
anything left in the tank?

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But that is so alien to us because
our training and everything in

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us says, it just actually doesn't
matter how you are feeling.

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This is your job, this is your role,
and yet it might not even be your role.

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But we've actually been trained
to feel that if no one else is

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gonna do it, we've got to do it.

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Yeah, I remember when I was a junior
doctor, I was on coronary care and all

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the nurses suddenly decided that their
phlebotomy certificates had run out.

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So who's gonna do the blood round?

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Well, they didn't go well.

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It's, we've got to sort out the problem.

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It's like, ble the junior
doctor, Rachel, you are doing it.

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And that is literally how most
doctors have then grown up.

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And then you become more senior.

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And of course the buck sorts are the
senior person, you have to do it.

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So you've always felt that
the buck sorts with you.

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So even if it's not your role, you end
up feeling like, well, I, I ought to,

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or I'm the partner in this practice, so
I ought to, I'm the clinical lead here.

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There's gonna be dreadful consequences.

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No one else is gonna do it.

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I, I've got to, or other
people could do it.

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I can't possibly ask them to take on
stress that I'm not happy to take on.

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And I think that's much more
of a motivator than thinking,

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well, I'm out of fuel.

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I, I can't,

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Yeah, so there's something about
being res that our responsibility

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is to be a sustainable instrument
for our craft, whatever it is.

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You know, I, me as a coach, um, people
as, as doctors or, or nurses or, or

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professionals in, in other healthcare
settings, that my responsibility

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then, my part of my ethics is to
be asking myself that question

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of do I actually have capacity?

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Am I nearing burnout?

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Am I beyond burnout?

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And I think there's a very
important belief to question.

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We have the assumption that
it's bad to say no to something.

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if I say no then, and like
what's gonna happen after that?

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That, how would we finish that sentence?

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And it can be very
helpful to question that.

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Can I really know that it
is gonna be bad if I say no?

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Could it be that there is another
way of looking at it, which is that

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we have this very broken system.

225
00:12:01,931 --> 00:12:03,791
I think everyone can agree with that.

226
00:12:03,895 --> 00:12:06,145
I'd love to hear if any, any
listeners or viewers don't

227
00:12:06,483 --> 00:12:08,665
No Corina NHS are working
brilliantly at the moment.

228
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:08,970
Yeah,

229
00:12:09,105 --> 00:12:10,825
you know it's all fine.

230
00:12:11,508 --> 00:12:14,473
Yet to meet a person who, uh,
who even thinks that, so I think

231
00:12:14,473 --> 00:12:16,063
we all agree it's dysfunctional.

232
00:12:16,315 --> 00:12:20,755
And there's this kind of belief that
somehow dysfunctional systems, if we

233
00:12:20,755 --> 00:12:24,453
all just kind of silently suffer and
kind of shuffle things around, then

234
00:12:24,453 --> 00:12:26,013
we'll all kind kind of muddle through.

235
00:12:26,013 --> 00:12:29,210
And, you know, we see this in
dysfunctional family systems, even

236
00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:33,908
that it, it might be just that someone
needs to be that canary in the, shaft.

237
00:12:33,908 --> 00:12:36,788
You know, the person that is like,
I'm not gonna silently suffer anymore.

238
00:12:36,788 --> 00:12:40,088
I'm gonna name something, or I'm
gonna pull back from saying yes

239
00:12:40,088 --> 00:12:43,921
so that there's even more chaos to
start with, but that, that actually

240
00:12:43,981 --> 00:12:48,991
maybe could lead to something more
functional, having to arise as a result.

241
00:12:49,503 --> 00:12:54,183
So that, like that question of
could it be, could it be that me

242
00:12:54,183 --> 00:12:59,482
saying no is part of helping this
system to become more functional?

243
00:12:59,911 --> 00:13:00,631
totally agree with that.

244
00:13:00,631 --> 00:13:03,961
And, and absolutely in, in the workshops
and when we do the Shapes Toolkit,

245
00:13:03,991 --> 00:13:06,841
you know, we have people saying, you
know, what am I choosing to do so that?

246
00:13:06,931 --> 00:13:08,011
You know, and.

247
00:13:08,461 --> 00:13:11,311
People know that if they keep saying
yes in the system and they keep

248
00:13:11,311 --> 00:13:15,031
absorbing the stu absorbing the
thing, no one's gonna sort it out.

249
00:13:15,211 --> 00:13:19,321
Um, and that's partly why we're in this
problem, because I think, you know, if

250
00:13:19,321 --> 00:13:24,301
you can imagine a big sink and demand,
patient demand being like a tap, which

251
00:13:24,301 --> 00:13:27,091
is filling up the sink, and you've got
a few outlets in the tap, you've got

252
00:13:27,091 --> 00:13:29,551
secondary care, you've got like your
overflow thing, you've got primary

253
00:13:29,551 --> 00:13:33,091
care who's, which is basically your
over primary care does most things.

254
00:13:33,091 --> 00:13:39,661
In fact, um, it, you know, it has, I think
something like 90% of the patient contacts

255
00:13:39,751 --> 00:13:42,211
in, in the UK are in primary care.

256
00:13:42,271 --> 00:13:45,931
It gets 8% of the budget, 8%
of the budget is shocking.

257
00:13:46,321 --> 00:13:49,621
Anyway, primary care by people,
overworking has absorbed the

258
00:13:49,621 --> 00:13:51,735
stuff, but they are at capacity.

259
00:13:51,735 --> 00:13:54,435
They're still at capacity that
now the water's now going over the

260
00:13:54,435 --> 00:13:56,025
sink and it's, it is overflowing.

261
00:13:56,385 --> 00:14:00,105
And so while the, while the water wasn't
overflowing, no one was doing anything.

262
00:14:00,465 --> 00:14:01,275
Now it's overflowing.

263
00:14:01,275 --> 00:14:02,265
It's almost a little bit late.

264
00:14:02,295 --> 00:14:04,815
There are things going on
trying to, trying to happen.

265
00:14:05,085 --> 00:14:07,689
So I think, I don't think
anybody disagrees that we can't

266
00:14:07,689 --> 00:14:10,689
just keep absorbing it because
then the system won't change.

267
00:14:10,989 --> 00:14:14,949
And at our best we can
believe that and and say no.

268
00:14:15,462 --> 00:14:17,502
The problem is the system's
out here, isn't it?

269
00:14:18,072 --> 00:14:21,675
But the patients are here and our
colleagues are here, and they're also

270
00:14:21,675 --> 00:14:23,085
working in the stressed out system.

271
00:14:23,085 --> 00:14:28,134
So if I say no, then my assumption is,
well, that means work gets done straight

272
00:14:28,434 --> 00:14:32,754
on my colleague who's as stresses me,
who's gonna find it as stressful as

273
00:14:32,754 --> 00:14:36,864
me to do that work and that it has to
be done Now those are all assumptions,

274
00:14:36,864 --> 00:14:38,424
which I guess we could challenge.

275
00:14:38,504 --> 00:14:38,837
Mm-hmm.

276
00:14:39,172 --> 00:14:39,622
Yep.

277
00:14:39,982 --> 00:14:43,702
We could definitely question the
assumption that they, they will

278
00:14:43,702 --> 00:14:48,262
take it on or have to take it on
because they are also an autonomous

279
00:14:48,262 --> 00:14:50,362
being who gets to make choices.

280
00:14:50,973 --> 00:14:51,843
Hard choices.

281
00:14:51,843 --> 00:14:53,523
We're talking about
very, very hard choices.

282
00:14:53,523 --> 00:14:56,253
And you know, when we, whenever
we do these podcasts, there's

283
00:14:56,253 --> 00:15:00,243
always just the, like, it's the
impossibility of the situation that

284
00:15:00,243 --> 00:15:01,623
always needs to be acknowledged.

285
00:15:01,623 --> 00:15:04,748
That there's no like glib
response or like, da da da dah.

286
00:15:05,528 --> 00:15:08,228
Like, I'm not coming onto this
podcast saying, by the way, guys,

287
00:15:08,258 --> 00:15:11,198
I figured it all out and you all
been doing it wrong with this time.

288
00:15:11,198 --> 00:15:12,488
It's like the opposite of that.

289
00:15:12,488 --> 00:15:15,368
It's like, what the, you
know, what is all of this?

290
00:15:15,488 --> 00:15:18,310
And I am responsible for myself.

291
00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:22,265
I am responsible as an independent
human being for my choices,

292
00:15:22,265 --> 00:15:23,735
as uncomfortable as they are.

293
00:15:24,065 --> 00:15:28,445
My colleagues are also
responsible for their choices,

294
00:15:28,445 --> 00:15:29,795
as uncomfortable as they are.

295
00:15:30,181 --> 00:15:33,653
And when my colleague makes a choice
that has an impact on me, I feel that

296
00:15:33,653 --> 00:15:35,903
impact, but it's still their choice.

297
00:15:35,933 --> 00:15:39,743
And then I have a choice about
how I respond to the impact on me.

298
00:15:40,097 --> 00:15:46,442
So I think that is very important that
we, we only own what is ours to own.

299
00:15:46,684 --> 00:15:49,569
And we sit in the discomfort
of what is not our own.

300
00:15:49,787 --> 00:15:52,242
And, and I'm, I think I've used
this word discomfort quite a bit

301
00:15:52,242 --> 00:15:55,272
already today, 'cause I feel like
that's really key, that there is

302
00:15:55,272 --> 00:15:57,672
just going to be a lot of discomfort.

303
00:15:58,182 --> 00:16:02,952
And if we can grow our tolerance with
discomfort, that will serve us well.

304
00:16:03,225 --> 00:16:05,070
and I think this is key to it, isn't it?

305
00:16:05,805 --> 00:16:09,435
I think there are two different
ours to own though, and two

306
00:16:09,435 --> 00:16:10,665
different types of discomfort.

307
00:16:11,191 --> 00:16:16,021
because there are things that I'm not
in control of and I talk about these

308
00:16:16,021 --> 00:16:17,821
control responsibility mismatches.

309
00:16:17,821 --> 00:16:21,481
And if we talk about the zone of
power, so what am I in control of?

310
00:16:21,481 --> 00:16:22,771
What am I not in control of?

311
00:16:22,771 --> 00:16:25,291
And you just draw a circle on a piece
of paper, say what I'm in control

312
00:16:25,291 --> 00:16:29,101
of is in the middle, what I'm not
in control of is on the outside.

313
00:16:29,851 --> 00:16:34,741
I think we can often feel
incredibly guilty for stuff

314
00:16:34,741 --> 00:16:36,121
that is outside of our control.

315
00:16:36,631 --> 00:16:39,361
Now, the traditional teachings, we
feel stressed and frustrated and,

316
00:16:39,361 --> 00:16:42,871
and, and and stuff, but actually the
healthcare professionals sit more senior

317
00:16:42,871 --> 00:16:44,521
they are, the more guilty they feel.

318
00:16:44,521 --> 00:16:48,691
So Corrina, I'm actually incredibly
guilty that you can't get that appointment

319
00:16:48,691 --> 00:16:50,281
you've been waiting for at the hospital.

320
00:16:50,641 --> 00:16:53,911
I have absolutely no control over
that, but I just feel, feel guilty.

321
00:16:54,071 --> 00:16:58,811
And then if a patient presents with
this extra problem and I'm not on duty

322
00:16:58,811 --> 00:17:02,891
and someone's just asked me for to see
them as a favor, I'm not in control

323
00:17:02,891 --> 00:17:06,071
of that person coming, I can decide
if I, you know, I could say yes or no.

324
00:17:06,245 --> 00:17:09,155
And I would still feel guilty for
saying no, but it would be a little bit

325
00:17:09,155 --> 00:17:11,855
easier 'cause I'm sort of not in control
of when the patient came in and I'm

326
00:17:11,855 --> 00:17:13,445
always, you know, doing them a favor.

327
00:17:13,675 --> 00:17:17,125
So there's that stuff outside our
zone of power that we, that we sort of

328
00:17:17,125 --> 00:17:18,955
overreach on and feel over responsible.

329
00:17:19,291 --> 00:17:23,161
My issue, Corrina, is the stuff
that's inside our zone of power.

330
00:17:23,311 --> 00:17:26,311
So I was doing a, a training
session recently and we were talking

331
00:17:26,311 --> 00:17:29,041
about, you know, the fact that you
can really care about that stuff

332
00:17:29,041 --> 00:17:30,211
that's outside your zone of power.

333
00:17:30,361 --> 00:17:33,031
You can't carry it though if
you can't do anything about it.

334
00:17:33,298 --> 00:17:36,195
But then this chap put his hand
up and said, well, I get that,

335
00:17:36,195 --> 00:17:38,985
and so I'm really focusing on what
I can control and what I can do.

336
00:17:38,985 --> 00:17:41,745
So I'm sitting on this committee,
I'm doing this, I'm running this

337
00:17:41,745 --> 00:17:44,865
service, I'm doing this, like six or
seven different things all at once.

338
00:17:44,865 --> 00:17:46,275
This was outside of the day job.

339
00:17:46,725 --> 00:17:48,375
And I just said, how's that going for you?

340
00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:51,930
Not very well 'cause he
was so overscheduled.

341
00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:54,750
So I've begun to realize I'd be
really interested in the thoughts of

342
00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:58,046
this, that there is so much stuff we
could do within our zone of power.

343
00:17:58,540 --> 00:17:59,800
We can't do it all.

344
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:02,830
And that's where you actually need
a smaller circle within your zone

345
00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:04,450
of power, which is your capacity.

346
00:18:04,713 --> 00:18:08,514
And I think this is what healthcare
professionals find really hard to

347
00:18:08,514 --> 00:18:12,639
do is say no to things that they
could do that's within their zone

348
00:18:12,639 --> 00:18:16,676
of power, that is in their control,
but it's not within their capacity.

349
00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:18,935
And, and, and that where's your capacity?

350
00:18:18,935 --> 00:18:21,275
It's a, it's a bit of a
blurred line or whatever.

351
00:18:21,275 --> 00:18:25,175
But if you then, you know, you can
go way over capacity and end up

352
00:18:25,175 --> 00:18:26,675
saying, you know, yes to everything.

353
00:18:26,675 --> 00:18:30,005
And that, that's what feels really,
really hard is actually, I, I

354
00:18:30,005 --> 00:18:31,415
could do that little extra thing.

355
00:18:31,415 --> 00:18:34,625
I could do it, but I really
don't have capacity to, but it

356
00:18:34,625 --> 00:18:37,715
is in my zone of power, therefore
I, I feel that I ought to.

357
00:18:37,715 --> 00:18:42,605
And that feels really, really
uncomfortable, particularly when that

358
00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:45,830
other person also has a finite capacity.

359
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:48,260
Now, again, I think that
is, that is an assumption.

360
00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:53,240
And I think one of the issues, I
think that with this question is

361
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,390
that we are, we are looking at it in
a very black and white binary way.

362
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,820
You know, if I don't do it,
someone else has got to do it.

363
00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:02,390
There's either I do it or I don't,
or, or someone else does it.

364
00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:06,560
Actually, I think what I'm trying to
find out is, is there a third way?

365
00:19:06,936 --> 00:19:11,622
Is there a third way that isn't, isn't
this binary black and white and I've taken

366
00:19:11,622 --> 00:19:14,442
control over that and have my capacity
'cause it really does affect somebody

367
00:19:14,442 --> 00:19:16,392
else who's got the similar capacity.

368
00:19:16,812 --> 00:19:19,602
That just feels too awkward
because it was in my zone of power

369
00:19:19,602 --> 00:19:21,162
and I could have done something.

370
00:19:21,282 --> 00:19:23,352
Hard enough, it's hard enough
letting stuff go that I couldn't

371
00:19:23,352 --> 00:19:26,622
have done anything about yet alone
stuff I could do something about.

372
00:19:26,622 --> 00:19:29,172
So that was a bit of a long
rant, but does that make sense?

373
00:19:29,232 --> 00:19:32,382
Well it does because it's about,
again, I'm gonna keep, I think

374
00:19:32,382 --> 00:19:36,964
pulling us back to like checking in
with myself, doing that, developing

375
00:19:36,964 --> 00:19:39,868
a practice around self assessment.

376
00:19:40,185 --> 00:19:43,817
Because if you've got those
items on your zone of power list,

377
00:19:44,068 --> 00:19:45,598
all of the things I could do.

378
00:19:45,628 --> 00:19:50,068
But you are checking in with yourself, not
with anyone else, not with what's needed,

379
00:19:50,128 --> 00:19:56,111
but with yourself, is this something
that I am actually, I have capacity for?

380
00:19:56,111 --> 00:20:01,533
I have availability for, I have choice
around, because that then is our come

381
00:20:01,533 --> 00:20:07,142
from not guilt or fear or panic even.

382
00:20:07,722 --> 00:20:09,701
But we have to keep developing this.

383
00:20:09,701 --> 00:20:13,671
It's not a normal practice, but to
develop the practice of self check-in.

384
00:20:13,766 --> 00:20:14,996
Is this within my capacity?

385
00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,066
Is this sustainable for me?

386
00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:20,000
is this a choice, an intentional
choice that I'm going to make?

387
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,700
Because when we make choices,
then we don't have resentment

388
00:20:23,793 --> 00:20:24,603
because we've chosen it.

389
00:20:24,802 --> 00:20:28,522
I think people think that they don't have
any choice because I can, the, the doctor

390
00:20:28,522 --> 00:20:32,212
in me is going, yeah, I know that's all
very good, but it just feels so selfish

391
00:20:32,212 --> 00:20:35,572
to keep going, i'm checking in with myself
and no, I'm checking with myself and no.

392
00:20:35,572 --> 00:20:37,762
'Cause actually, if everyone just
checked in with themselves all the

393
00:20:37,762 --> 00:20:40,372
time and said, no, literally you
wouldn't have a health service.

394
00:20:40,447 --> 00:20:41,527
And maybe that's the point.

395
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:47,292
That's the point about what if,
what if saying no was important

396
00:20:47,645 --> 00:20:49,505
to fully break the system?

397
00:20:49,846 --> 00:20:52,126
We are all, we're all
quite scared, aren't we?

398
00:20:52,126 --> 00:20:53,416
Of systems falling apart.

399
00:20:53,416 --> 00:20:56,026
I can really see that if we look
at education system, even though

400
00:20:56,026 --> 00:20:59,296
we know it's dysfunctional, family
systems, even though we know they're

401
00:20:59,386 --> 00:21:03,983
dysfunctional, uh, political systems,
you know, how bad do things need to get?

402
00:21:03,983 --> 00:21:06,353
I mean, we're seeing that played out
in the political stage at the moment.

403
00:21:06,588 --> 00:21:10,128
But maybe things do have to get
that bad before they can get better.

404
00:21:10,488 --> 00:21:15,378
And so me saying yes isn't actually
necessarily helping the bigger picture.

405
00:21:15,515 --> 00:21:18,665
But then it's the bigger picture
versus the smaller picture, isn't it?

406
00:21:18,665 --> 00:21:21,532
And it's the it it's the people and yeah.

407
00:21:21,547 --> 00:21:25,942
I, I think people are accepting of the
fact that the system, yeah, it, it's

408
00:21:25,942 --> 00:21:29,452
gonna, it something drastic needs to
happen for, for anything to happen.

409
00:21:29,872 --> 00:21:31,012
But it's these people.

410
00:21:31,162 --> 00:21:32,722
It's these people in front of you.

411
00:21:32,722 --> 00:21:35,692
And I think, I think one thing you said
was really interesting, Corrina, which

412
00:21:35,692 --> 00:21:39,382
is that the assumptions that we're
making that, that saying no is bad.

413
00:21:39,532 --> 00:21:41,962
And I think, I wonder whether we
could dig into that a little bit

414
00:21:41,962 --> 00:21:45,682
more and think about even maybe using
the work or some of those amazing

415
00:21:45,682 --> 00:21:47,362
questions that you asked to help.

416
00:21:47,849 --> 00:21:51,059
How can we challenge our assumptions
and look at things the other way?

417
00:21:51,059 --> 00:21:54,599
Rather than make the immediate assumption,
which I think our amygdala makes us think,

418
00:21:54,599 --> 00:21:56,159
like you said, threat, threat, threat.

419
00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:00,569
We're scanning for threat constantly,
if I say no here, then it's going to

420
00:22:00,569 --> 00:22:03,119
absolutely ruin my relationship ship
with everybody else, or it's gonna

421
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,789
cause other people inconvenience,
it's gonna be, it's gonna be awful.

422
00:22:05,789 --> 00:22:09,989
So, yeah, would that be a good
way to try and tease this out?

423
00:22:10,209 --> 00:22:10,449
Yeah.

424
00:22:10,449 --> 00:22:10,719
Great.

425
00:22:10,719 --> 00:22:12,679
And just, and, and before
we go into the work with it.

426
00:22:13,257 --> 00:22:19,437
seeing how in so many situations we have
that like saying, Hmm is bad, right?

427
00:22:19,437 --> 00:22:24,627
Saying Hmm to my intimate partner or my,
you know, my, uh, child or my friend,

428
00:22:24,627 --> 00:22:29,607
or just so many places where we have the
assumption that saying our truth, which

429
00:22:29,607 --> 00:22:32,091
is what it is, speaking our truth is bad.

430
00:22:32,249 --> 00:22:33,179
And so let's go into it.

431
00:22:33,179 --> 00:22:36,509
So, so the work of Byron Katie is
what you're inviting us to use,

432
00:22:36,509 --> 00:22:39,959
which is a way of questioning
assumptions, questioning beliefs.

433
00:22:40,150 --> 00:22:43,750
So we hold this thought saying
no is bad, and we just have it

434
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:45,190
like a, it's just a default.

435
00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:47,890
It's an assumed like,
yeah, saying no is bad.

436
00:22:48,192 --> 00:22:50,382
So the first thing we do
is we test the truth of it.

437
00:22:50,382 --> 00:22:52,692
It's like we put it under,
under the pressure of our

438
00:22:52,692 --> 00:22:55,092
questioning saying No is bad.

439
00:22:55,122 --> 00:22:56,112
Is that true?

440
00:22:56,436 --> 00:22:58,236
Okay, so this situation
actually happened to me.

441
00:22:58,236 --> 00:23:01,024
I was, a GP quite a few years ago.

442
00:23:01,234 --> 00:23:05,457
Somebody, a mum came in for
her twins, immunizations.

443
00:23:05,577 --> 00:23:06,957
There wasn't a nurse on that day.

444
00:23:07,077 --> 00:23:10,017
The, the receptionist had mucked up and
there wasn't, there wasn't a nurse on.

445
00:23:10,347 --> 00:23:14,877
And I was the duty doctor and the
request came to me, please, can you

446
00:23:14,877 --> 00:23:16,797
do the ims for this, this patient?

447
00:23:17,277 --> 00:23:20,916
And I, I wasn't trained to do the ims
or whatever, you know, obviously I

448
00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:23,646
know how to do injections, but I wasn't
up to date with it all, whatever.

449
00:23:23,646 --> 00:23:27,936
And I was expected to do these,
to do these, IM immunizations.

450
00:23:27,936 --> 00:23:33,096
The mum was really distraught, 'cause
you know, it's really hard with twins,

451
00:23:33,096 --> 00:23:34,776
it's hard with one, maybe let alone two.

452
00:23:34,776 --> 00:23:37,866
So she's knackered, she'd struggled
through the traffic to get in.

453
00:23:37,896 --> 00:23:39,006
It was a really big deal.

454
00:23:39,006 --> 00:23:42,696
I think it, the, the ims had already
been delayed and I was under a lot of

455
00:23:42,696 --> 00:23:47,613
pressure to, to fit this patient into a
busy thing and to do these immunizations.

456
00:23:47,912 --> 00:23:48,678
That's a great example.

457
00:23:48,678 --> 00:23:53,208
And I, I felt as soon as you said
mom, as a mom myself, as soon as you

458
00:23:53,208 --> 00:23:55,158
literally said the word mom, I was like.

459
00:23:55,683 --> 00:23:56,553
Because we have that.

460
00:23:56,553 --> 00:24:00,213
It's so inbuilt, like you can't say
no to a mother with children who

461
00:24:00,213 --> 00:24:01,473
need something for her children.

462
00:24:01,473 --> 00:24:03,266
That's the most emotive thing.

463
00:24:03,326 --> 00:24:03,716
Great.

464
00:24:04,166 --> 00:24:05,246
So saying no is bad.

465
00:24:05,246 --> 00:24:06,926
So we have to meditate on this.

466
00:24:06,926 --> 00:24:09,746
We can't just answer
from our, our fast brain.

467
00:24:10,047 --> 00:24:11,157
We have to sink in.

468
00:24:11,157 --> 00:24:12,957
We have to visualize the moment.

469
00:24:12,957 --> 00:24:17,067
You can actually visualize it, but
we can all imagine whatever we,

470
00:24:17,487 --> 00:24:18,717
you know, we're gonna make it up.

471
00:24:19,024 --> 00:24:23,794
So saying no to that mother, to immunize
her children in that moment is bad.

472
00:24:23,944 --> 00:24:26,014
And maybe I would even say it's
wrong, like that's the kind

473
00:24:26,014 --> 00:24:27,304
of like our thinking will go.

474
00:24:27,304 --> 00:24:28,624
Like, no, you just can't do it.

475
00:24:28,654 --> 00:24:29,164
It's bad.

476
00:24:29,164 --> 00:24:29,614
It's wrong.

477
00:24:30,129 --> 00:24:31,269
Is that true?

478
00:24:31,663 --> 00:24:35,443
And we sink in and we are
asking like a deeper part within

479
00:24:35,443 --> 00:24:37,963
ourself, not just our brain.

480
00:24:38,143 --> 00:24:41,983
We are asking our whole system
like head, heart, gut, all of our

481
00:24:41,983 --> 00:24:45,808
body is that saying no is bad.

482
00:24:46,048 --> 00:24:47,188
Is that true?

483
00:24:47,908 --> 00:24:53,068
And we just wait until we
have a sense of a yes or a no.

484
00:24:53,554 --> 00:24:57,754
when it was immediately presented to me,
I think it was a, it would've been a yes.

485
00:24:58,261 --> 00:25:03,181
And now if you, if you step into
that observer position within

486
00:25:03,181 --> 00:25:05,761
yourself, might still be yes.

487
00:25:05,761 --> 00:25:09,781
But just give yourself
a moment to question it.

488
00:25:09,991 --> 00:25:12,121
Well, no, in the observer
position, it's a no.

489
00:25:12,841 --> 00:25:13,231
Okay.

490
00:25:13,231 --> 00:25:14,851
And I found a no when I sat with it.

491
00:25:15,631 --> 00:25:18,151
Now, if we found a yes, this is
that everyone can do it at home.

492
00:25:18,151 --> 00:25:20,641
You know, if you found a yes and
you may have found a screaming

493
00:25:20,641 --> 00:25:24,421
yes, like Rachel whatcha talking
about, of course it's a yes.

494
00:25:24,421 --> 00:25:25,501
These poor, right?

495
00:25:25,561 --> 00:25:25,861
Okay.

496
00:25:26,821 --> 00:25:30,601
Then you say, can you
absolutely know that it's true?

497
00:25:31,351 --> 00:25:34,831
Which isn't a trick question,
it's a chance to go deeper again

498
00:25:34,831 --> 00:25:39,031
and just say like, can you know
the biggest picture of all of it?

499
00:25:39,511 --> 00:25:44,611
Can you know these, these children's
full lives, this mother's full life,

500
00:25:44,611 --> 00:25:48,271
can you know, basically, can you know
better than whatever you perceive

501
00:25:48,271 --> 00:25:51,241
as God, the universe higher power?

502
00:25:51,511 --> 00:25:53,461
Can you know better than all of it?

503
00:25:54,031 --> 00:25:59,772
Can you, you individual person, know
that it is true, that saying no is bad?

504
00:25:59,997 --> 00:26:00,847
Categorically?

505
00:26:01,318 --> 00:26:01,768
No.

506
00:26:02,008 --> 00:26:05,715
No, 'cause you can never
categorically really know anything.

507
00:26:05,899 --> 00:26:08,479
Because I've had that many
situations in my life where I was

508
00:26:08,479 --> 00:26:11,719
sure something was bad or wrong
and it should never have happened.

509
00:26:11,885 --> 00:26:17,759
And then after the event, like even maybe
years after the event, realizing, oh, like

510
00:26:17,849 --> 00:26:21,009
that's why that was perfect as it was.

511
00:26:21,009 --> 00:26:24,699
That's why that happened as it did,
because here this situation is now.

512
00:26:25,422 --> 00:26:27,192
So we test the truth first.

513
00:26:27,192 --> 00:26:30,522
And again, you might get a really
clear yes for the second question.

514
00:26:30,522 --> 00:26:31,272
That's fine.

515
00:26:31,272 --> 00:26:34,332
This is just giving you
a chance to question.

516
00:26:34,893 --> 00:26:39,903
And whatever you find as the truth for
you, you look at how do you react, what

517
00:26:39,903 --> 00:26:42,243
happens when you believe the thought.

518
00:26:42,243 --> 00:26:46,833
So for you, Rachel, how did you react
in that situation when you really

519
00:26:46,833 --> 00:26:49,033
believed I can't say no saying no is bad?

520
00:26:49,386 --> 00:26:51,426
Oh, well you felt
pressurized into doing it.

521
00:26:52,146 --> 00:26:57,794
Well, I have to, I ought to like a bit of
panic a bit like this is gonna take ages.

522
00:26:57,884 --> 00:26:59,587
Um, and also a bit of.

523
00:27:00,292 --> 00:27:03,712
Speaking myself up about, oh, for
goodness sake, you're such a cow even

524
00:27:03,712 --> 00:27:07,132
thinking you shouldn't, you know, you
know, there's this whole, of course you

525
00:27:07,132 --> 00:27:09,862
should, you know, uh, this poor woman.

526
00:27:09,885 --> 00:27:11,655
So the panic I'm really interested in.

527
00:27:11,655 --> 00:27:14,245
So just notice, you know, when
I believe saying no is bad,

528
00:27:14,512 --> 00:27:16,259
i'm in my amygdala, right?

529
00:27:16,259 --> 00:27:21,143
I'm in my fear-based response, i'm in,
I mean, panic, you know, thinking about

530
00:27:21,143 --> 00:27:24,533
me as a prac, if I'm thinking about
myself as a practitioner, wow, this

531
00:27:24,533 --> 00:27:28,943
thought has put me into a panic state
and I'm about to pick up a needle like

532
00:27:28,943 --> 00:27:30,593
that does, they don't seem compatible.

533
00:27:30,821 --> 00:27:34,443
So how do I react when I
believe saying no is bad?

534
00:27:34,443 --> 00:27:39,513
I might get flustered, I might
get hot, I might get panicked.

535
00:27:39,543 --> 00:27:42,633
Like, what else might happen
in our physiology when we

536
00:27:42,768 --> 00:27:43,058
Gosh.

537
00:27:43,058 --> 00:27:44,973
Well, we make, we make bad decisions.

538
00:27:44,973 --> 00:27:46,023
We rush things.

539
00:27:46,023 --> 00:27:49,863
We don't think things through,
uh, we make massive mistakes.

540
00:27:49,863 --> 00:27:50,553
We are rude.

541
00:27:50,553 --> 00:27:51,453
All that sort of stuff.

542
00:27:51,663 --> 00:27:52,383
yes.

543
00:27:52,443 --> 00:27:52,803
Yeah.

544
00:27:52,803 --> 00:27:56,343
So this is for each person listening or
watching to assess that for yourself.

545
00:27:56,343 --> 00:28:02,349
What is the cost, what is
the impact when you believe I

546
00:28:02,349 --> 00:28:03,819
can't say no, saying no is bad.

547
00:28:04,037 --> 00:28:06,167
Because it will have
you sharp a certain way.

548
00:28:06,390 --> 00:28:09,175
And then to assess whether that
way of showing up is actually

549
00:28:09,175 --> 00:28:10,585
in anyone's best interests.

550
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,240
And then when we've really fully looked
at that, then we look at who would

551
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,286
I be in that exact same situation
without the thought saying no is bad.

552
00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:23,286
So imagine you just, for some
reason Rachel, someone's just

553
00:28:23,286 --> 00:28:24,906
deleted that thought from your mind.

554
00:28:25,446 --> 00:28:28,356
You see the mother in front of you,
you maybe see the twins crying, the

555
00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:33,848
mother's distraught, but you, you
know your capacity and you can't

556
00:28:33,848 --> 00:28:35,228
believe that saying no is bad.

557
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,480
Who would you then be?

558
00:28:37,117 --> 00:28:41,347
Well, I'd be much more kind and
compassionate, so I would be

559
00:28:41,347 --> 00:28:42,997
more kind and compassionate.

560
00:28:43,357 --> 00:28:47,941
I would be behaving in a way that
I maybe thought was less kind.

561
00:28:47,971 --> 00:28:50,311
Well, no, I wouldn't be thinking
that anymore because that, that,

562
00:28:50,401 --> 00:28:54,061
that's a thought I'd been a out
of my head, but I would be being

563
00:28:54,061 --> 00:28:55,381
much more kind and compassionate.

564
00:28:55,831 --> 00:28:58,951
Um, because I wouldn't be feeling
pressurized that I should have done

565
00:28:58,951 --> 00:29:02,521
something differently or, you know, so
I'd probably just be very matter of fact

566
00:29:02,521 --> 00:29:06,091
in that I'm afraid we, we literally,
the, the fact of matter is there is not

567
00:29:06,091 --> 00:29:07,681
a space for you to have the vaccination.

568
00:29:07,681 --> 00:29:10,531
You know, there's no
personal, it's not personal.

569
00:29:10,591 --> 00:29:11,541
Yes.

570
00:29:11,541 --> 00:29:11,751
Yes.

571
00:29:11,751 --> 00:29:14,151
It's not like we are, I'm
choosing not to do it.

572
00:29:14,151 --> 00:29:16,611
It's like it's, it's
not, it's not happening.

573
00:29:16,611 --> 00:29:19,251
There is not an, there's
not an appointment.

574
00:29:19,281 --> 00:29:21,885
Um, can I just break this
and tell you the story of my

575
00:29:21,885 --> 00:29:24,455
beautician waxing story, Corrina?

576
00:29:24,922 --> 00:29:26,742
As long as you keep it
in the recording, yes.

577
00:29:26,838 --> 00:29:26,958
Oh yeah.

578
00:29:27,828 --> 00:29:28,338
Alright.

579
00:29:28,494 --> 00:29:33,482
So I was at Birdie the other day, having
some waxing done before I went away.

580
00:29:33,482 --> 00:29:38,012
I won't tell you every tiny detail of
it, but I was, I built my nails, you

581
00:29:38,012 --> 00:29:41,072
know, various different things and I
just had my nails done and I was just

582
00:29:41,072 --> 00:29:43,142
about to move through to the waxing room.

583
00:29:43,532 --> 00:29:47,672
And, um, this woman came in floods,
it was a Friday afternoon, right?

584
00:29:47,672 --> 00:29:51,077
She was in floods of tears,
like, absolutely distraught.

585
00:29:51,077 --> 00:29:52,307
I was like, this is interesting.

586
00:29:52,307 --> 00:29:54,617
Like beautician emergency,
what could it be?

587
00:29:54,887 --> 00:29:56,837
She's like, sobbing.

588
00:29:57,257 --> 00:29:59,537
I'm getting married tomorrow she said.

589
00:29:59,837 --> 00:30:03,052
And my, my waxer hasn't
turned up to my house.

590
00:30:04,131 --> 00:30:05,241
Anyway, so.

591
00:30:05,406 --> 00:30:08,556
You know, the, the, the beautician
is doing my nails and stuff.

592
00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:09,216
It was so lovely.

593
00:30:09,216 --> 00:30:12,126
She walks over to her desk,
she said, oh, I'm so sorry,

594
00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:13,746
let me just see what we can do.

595
00:30:13,746 --> 00:30:15,336
She, let me just check our schedule.

596
00:30:15,336 --> 00:30:19,453
So she looked at it and she looked at it
again, and she looked at it again and she

597
00:30:19,453 --> 00:30:22,003
said, I'm so sorry, we're fully booked.

598
00:30:22,718 --> 00:30:24,788
And, and this woman, oh, can't you fit me?

599
00:30:24,843 --> 00:30:25,988
And she, and she went, hang on.

600
00:30:26,248 --> 00:30:27,388
No, I'm so sorry.

601
00:30:27,388 --> 00:30:30,478
She said, but I can give you the
name of someone down the road.

602
00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:33,716
And I thought, wow, look at that.

603
00:30:33,866 --> 00:30:34,376
Look at that.

604
00:30:34,376 --> 00:30:36,146
It's, I, no one's gonna die right here.

605
00:30:36,206 --> 00:30:37,346
The worst that can happen.

606
00:30:37,346 --> 00:30:38,576
She's got a bit of hair somewhere.

607
00:30:38,576 --> 00:30:39,296
She didn't want it.

608
00:30:39,681 --> 00:30:41,391
Certainly no one's gonna die.

609
00:30:41,901 --> 00:30:44,661
That's just a side note, but it
just made me think, oh my goodness.

610
00:30:44,661 --> 00:30:48,771
You know, when patients come in for, I
can, I just say much less of an emergency.

611
00:30:48,771 --> 00:30:50,991
I'm not talking about these kids with
the vaccinations, but you know, just

612
00:30:50,991 --> 00:30:53,211
like, I need a holiday medical done.

613
00:30:53,211 --> 00:30:53,811
I need this.

614
00:30:53,811 --> 00:30:54,861
I forgot my prescription.

615
00:30:54,861 --> 00:30:57,801
Like, no one is really gonna die if
they just, it's just convenient for

616
00:30:57,801 --> 00:30:59,541
them, they want it, they kick up a fuss.

617
00:30:59,991 --> 00:31:02,271
Most, most gps just fit them in.

618
00:31:02,541 --> 00:31:05,511
Even they, they don't have any
capacity, they don't literally

619
00:31:05,511 --> 00:31:06,501
have capacity in their diary.

620
00:31:06,501 --> 00:31:08,241
It's not like, do I need
to check into myself?

621
00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:08,721
Do I have time?

622
00:31:08,721 --> 00:31:11,001
It's like, no, we
literally don't have time.

623
00:31:11,151 --> 00:31:13,071
And that will put all the
rest of the patients back.

624
00:31:13,701 --> 00:31:15,501
But partly it's people pleasing.

625
00:31:15,501 --> 00:31:19,761
Partly there's that niggle of, what if I
miss something and it was really, really,

626
00:31:19,761 --> 00:31:21,681
really, really, really urgent, you know?

627
00:31:22,011 --> 00:31:25,911
But we had this amazing
capability of pre reliving stuff.

628
00:31:25,911 --> 00:31:28,521
So I was in a, a training
session, a Shapes training

629
00:31:28,521 --> 00:31:29,721
session, Corrina, the other day.

630
00:31:29,721 --> 00:31:32,433
And, um, I love, I love in the zone
of power when we're talking about

631
00:31:32,433 --> 00:31:33,903
what you in control of what you not.

632
00:31:33,903 --> 00:31:36,363
And I always pop in
what time I leave work.

633
00:31:36,363 --> 00:31:37,398
And you can see people go, Ooh.

634
00:31:37,848 --> 00:31:38,898
I'm not in control of that.

635
00:31:39,108 --> 00:31:41,028
And I've seen you deal with
that before and it's brilliant.

636
00:31:41,028 --> 00:31:45,588
But, um, it was, I think it was
a load of, um, new first five gps

637
00:31:45,588 --> 00:31:48,978
and it's like, okay, I said, you in
charge of what time you leave work.

638
00:31:48,978 --> 00:31:50,448
And every, they were not happy.

639
00:31:50,658 --> 00:31:54,048
And someone said, no, I'm sorry that I am
not in charge of what time you leave work.

640
00:31:54,048 --> 00:31:55,308
I said, oh, that's interesting, tell me.

641
00:31:55,308 --> 00:31:58,788
Well, she said, well, if I'm on
call and even when the phones go

642
00:31:58,788 --> 00:32:02,329
there, if a child comes in, I can't
just leave them and not see them.

643
00:32:02,752 --> 00:32:06,052
Well, who, who is in charge of when you
literally get up and leave your desk?

644
00:32:06,052 --> 00:32:10,012
Well, I said if I'm, I just can't leave a
child if they come in, you know, late in

645
00:32:10,012 --> 00:32:14,662
the evening because 111 is rubbish in our
area, they won't deal with them properly.

646
00:32:14,662 --> 00:32:16,192
It's too risky to leave a child.

647
00:32:16,702 --> 00:32:18,262
And I was like, Hmm, that's interesting.

648
00:32:18,262 --> 00:32:20,933
And someone else said sort of, he
said, what do you do on a Sunday

649
00:32:20,933 --> 00:32:22,703
afternoon when there's a sick child?

650
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,120
And what about at midnight
when there's a sick child?

651
00:32:25,378 --> 00:32:28,767
Or on Saturday lunchtime when you're not
at the practice and there's a sick child.

652
00:32:29,037 --> 00:32:33,477
So there's something about when I'm
there and someone wants something, we

653
00:32:33,477 --> 00:32:37,017
can't cope, 'cause there's just so much
need, you know, that sick child on a

654
00:32:37,017 --> 00:32:40,797
Sunday goes to 111, so how come they
can't do it on a, on a Friday night?

655
00:32:40,797 --> 00:32:44,097
But we, it's like, well if they turned up
at the surgery and they are really, really

656
00:32:44,097 --> 00:32:46,497
sick and 111 doesn't work, what happens?

657
00:32:46,747 --> 00:32:51,697
And so we're, we can find, we can escalate
any small situation to a potentially

658
00:32:51,697 --> 00:32:53,077
lethal, life threatening situation.

659
00:32:53,077 --> 00:32:55,190
It's quite interesting how we do that.

660
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:58,310
And whether it, and I think a lot
of it is really, really genuinely,

661
00:32:58,310 --> 00:33:02,600
we, we genuinely feel this over
responsibility that we are responsible

662
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,790
for everything a patient says or does.

663
00:33:04,790 --> 00:33:07,610
And if a patient, you know,
we don't give patients enough

664
00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:09,170
responsibility for their own health,

665
00:33:09,594 --> 00:33:11,964
we'll get to the turnaround in a minute,
but what you're pointing to there

666
00:33:11,964 --> 00:33:18,654
is that when she said no, when the
beautician said no, the system arranged

667
00:33:18,654 --> 00:33:21,752
itself better actually around it.

668
00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:22,950
Oh, and interesting.

669
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:26,024
What would've really pissed me
off is if she'd have fit this

670
00:33:26,024 --> 00:33:28,184
woman in quickly and made me late.

671
00:33:28,477 --> 00:33:28,697
Ooh.

672
00:33:29,032 --> 00:33:31,882
And I would've sat there going, well,
I'm waiting and made them, you know?

673
00:33:31,912 --> 00:33:35,234
Whereas actually I'm much, I was much
happier just to say, oh, you, you have the

674
00:33:35,234 --> 00:33:37,214
slot and vol. 'cause it was choice, right?

675
00:33:37,214 --> 00:33:38,084
It's choice.

676
00:33:38,247 --> 00:33:40,137
So who would you be without that thought?

677
00:33:40,137 --> 00:33:42,147
You're there with the mom, with the twins.

678
00:33:42,387 --> 00:33:46,677
What I see in you, if I imagine myself
in that situation is I would be able

679
00:33:46,977 --> 00:33:52,287
to be more with that mother from a
clear place of like, I really get

680
00:33:52,287 --> 00:33:56,879
how distraught you are and how much
this means, and how scared you are or

681
00:33:56,879 --> 00:34:01,799
whatever it is that you wanna say in
terms of empathy, compassion, presence.

682
00:34:01,995 --> 00:34:04,424
And this kind of idea
that we can have both.

683
00:34:04,424 --> 00:34:04,784
Right?

684
00:34:05,008 --> 00:34:05,788
I hear all that.

685
00:34:05,788 --> 00:34:06,328
I see all that.

686
00:34:06,328 --> 00:34:09,538
I can actually be present with
you for all that and I'm not

687
00:34:09,538 --> 00:34:12,598
able to do that right now, or
nobody's able to do that right now.

688
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,070
Here's the alternative.

689
00:34:14,304 --> 00:34:15,894
And then we look at the turnaround, right?

690
00:34:15,894 --> 00:34:17,214
So we've questioned the thought.

691
00:34:17,244 --> 00:34:17,934
Is it true?

692
00:34:17,934 --> 00:34:21,775
We've looked at the cost of believing
it, who we'd be without it, and

693
00:34:21,775 --> 00:34:24,925
then we look at whether the opposite
could be just as true or even

694
00:34:24,925 --> 00:34:26,275
truer than the original thought.

695
00:34:26,614 --> 00:34:28,234
So saying no is bad.

696
00:34:28,522 --> 00:34:32,632
We flip it, saying no is not bad,
or saying no could actually be good.

697
00:34:32,962 --> 00:34:37,132
Do you see any examples in your
situation where actually it

698
00:34:37,132 --> 00:34:39,322
would've been good to say no?

699
00:34:39,907 --> 00:34:43,477
Oh, yes, several, because number one, the
nurse does vaccinations much better than

700
00:34:43,477 --> 00:34:47,437
me, because they do them every day so
they can, they know all the complications,

701
00:34:47,437 --> 00:34:49,807
they give much better counseling,
you know, all that sort of thing.

702
00:34:49,807 --> 00:34:53,557
So it's much better to have someone
who's fully trained and able to do it.

703
00:34:53,557 --> 00:34:56,077
So that's a first thing, actually,
from patient safety point of

704
00:34:56,077 --> 00:34:57,577
view, much better to say no.

705
00:34:57,577 --> 00:34:58,957
So that's, that's a no brainer.

706
00:34:59,292 --> 00:35:01,062
Second say no is good.

707
00:35:01,348 --> 00:35:04,218
Um, well, it protects me,
protects my time for a start.

708
00:35:04,243 --> 00:35:06,185
and then you were then
available for other patients.

709
00:35:06,823 --> 00:35:09,943
May, maybe you were then more  present
if you, you know, if you'd said no,

710
00:35:10,303 --> 00:35:15,223
maybe you would've been then present
more cognitively with another patient

711
00:35:15,223 --> 00:35:18,013
and you may have then picked up on
something that you just wouldn't

712
00:35:18,013 --> 00:35:22,318
have been able to pick up on if you
were so frantic and so panicked.

713
00:35:22,438 --> 00:35:23,998
We just can't think clearly like that.

714
00:35:24,318 --> 00:35:27,745
Who would I want as a doctor,
someone fully present and available?

715
00:35:27,963 --> 00:35:29,673
Who would I want vaccinating my child?

716
00:35:29,673 --> 00:35:32,991
Someone fully present and available
and who was trained to do so, right?

717
00:35:32,991 --> 00:35:37,011
And so, yes, it might be inconvenient, but
again, we sit with the discomfort of that

718
00:35:37,011 --> 00:35:39,021
inconvenience and someone not being happy.

719
00:35:39,146 --> 00:35:39,397
Yeah.

720
00:35:39,397 --> 00:35:42,892
And the inconvenience was, you
know, I, I would've felt really

721
00:35:42,892 --> 00:35:44,872
bad and really responsible.

722
00:35:45,502 --> 00:35:46,822
Not my responsibility.

723
00:35:46,822 --> 00:35:47,662
I can't even remember.

724
00:35:47,662 --> 00:35:50,752
It would've been a patient's diary,
mal malfunctional, or a receptionist

725
00:35:50,752 --> 00:35:52,252
are in malfunction or something.

726
00:35:52,312 --> 00:35:55,955
None of my, not my problem
or not my responsibility.

727
00:35:55,955 --> 00:36:00,065
And even if I was a partner in that
practice, and this is part of the problem

728
00:36:00,065 --> 00:36:04,025
that we get, and I know this being a
business owner myself, and you're a

729
00:36:04,025 --> 00:36:07,818
business owner, you know, if something
goes wrong in your organization,

730
00:36:08,328 --> 00:36:11,328
you feel totally responsible for it.

731
00:36:11,808 --> 00:36:15,408
Even if you couldn't stop it happening.

732
00:36:15,408 --> 00:36:19,218
And I see this with the, do lots
of training with GP trainers, GP

733
00:36:19,218 --> 00:36:20,538
trainers groups and things like that.

734
00:36:20,538 --> 00:36:23,118
And I start up by saying in
terms of your trainees, what

735
00:36:23,118 --> 00:36:24,498
do you feel responsible for?

736
00:36:24,798 --> 00:36:28,518
And they're like, well, we are responsible
for if they pass their exams, how

737
00:36:28,518 --> 00:36:32,748
happy they are, their wellbeing, what
training they get in our practice.

738
00:36:32,808 --> 00:36:35,868
And I'm like, is there any of
that you've got control of that?

739
00:36:35,868 --> 00:36:36,528
Well, we're a trainer.

740
00:36:36,528 --> 00:36:39,318
We have to be, we're like,
okay, so how are you responsible

741
00:36:39,318 --> 00:36:40,308
for if they pass their exams?

742
00:36:40,308 --> 00:36:43,578
Literally, are you there holding their
pen, writing their exams for them?

743
00:36:43,758 --> 00:36:46,248
Are you there every weekend
saying, are you revising?

744
00:36:46,578 --> 00:36:48,678
You know, like I should have
been with my son, you know.

745
00:36:49,764 --> 00:36:53,634
So even if you do own the organization
or own the business, yes there are

746
00:36:53,634 --> 00:36:59,184
things you can do like train receptionist
properly or have the protocols that

747
00:36:59,184 --> 00:37:01,404
are right and run the thing properly.

748
00:37:02,049 --> 00:37:06,729
Day to day, what happens in your
business, how somebody answers the

749
00:37:06,729 --> 00:37:11,109
phone or behaves, or the interpersonal
relationships you can't control.

750
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:14,499
And it's, I think, you know, so it's
this double whammy of being a doctor

751
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:17,979
and then being responsible as a partner
or as clinical lead or something

752
00:37:17,979 --> 00:37:22,419
that, that really, you know, so I
think at the time I was a salaried

753
00:37:22,419 --> 00:37:24,099
doctor, I still felt bad enough.

754
00:37:24,099 --> 00:37:26,559
I think if I was a partner, it
would've been even worse because

755
00:37:26,559 --> 00:37:30,399
I'd have felt always my practice,
I am ultimately responsible.

756
00:37:30,671 --> 00:37:34,206
But you, it, that's the problem with
this control, responsibility, mismatch.

757
00:37:34,206 --> 00:37:39,098
And instantly all the, um, research
and burnout recently has been that

758
00:37:39,103 --> 00:37:41,873
the, the people who have the highest
incidences of burnouts, the people

759
00:37:41,873 --> 00:37:44,453
in high stakes jobs with low control.

760
00:37:44,991 --> 00:37:45,801
That's healthcare.

761
00:37:46,011 --> 00:37:49,251
Um, there was another subset of people
in high stakes jobs who had high control.

762
00:37:49,431 --> 00:37:53,091
They had really low levels of burnout, so
that was really, really interesting to me.

763
00:37:53,601 --> 00:37:57,801
So, yeah, so I think there is this
something about doctors take that extra

764
00:37:57,801 --> 00:38:01,071
level of responsibility either because
they genuinely own the practice, their

765
00:38:01,071 --> 00:38:03,651
business, or they're respons, they're
the clinical lead or the director,

766
00:38:03,651 --> 00:38:06,565
and think the more responsible they
are, the harder they find to say no.

767
00:38:06,745 --> 00:38:10,435
And it's, that's where it comes down
to questioning, does this actually lead

768
00:38:10,435 --> 00:38:14,755
to more safety or does it just make
me feel a little bit like a hero or

769
00:38:14,755 --> 00:38:18,022
a, you know, the one who's gonna save
the day, or the one who's gonna, even,

770
00:38:18,022 --> 00:38:20,812
even that kind of like, just, I'm the
one who's really responsible, but is

771
00:38:20,812 --> 00:38:22,462
it actually leading to more safety?

772
00:38:22,462 --> 00:38:26,002
Like, in that example, is it more
safe for those twins to be immunized

773
00:38:26,002 --> 00:38:27,532
by you or to wait a day or a week

774
00:38:27,532 --> 00:38:30,022
Much more safer than to wait
for the work for the nurse, yes.

775
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,359
And we can also turn it
around saying, no is bad.

776
00:38:33,449 --> 00:38:35,909
We can look at saying no is
good, or saying no is not bad.

777
00:38:35,909 --> 00:38:39,779
We can also look at saying yes
is bad as the other turnaround.

778
00:38:40,319 --> 00:38:42,089
So saying yes is bad.

779
00:38:42,329 --> 00:38:45,689
Maybe then something more
systemic gets missed, right?

780
00:38:45,689 --> 00:38:50,707
Maybe there is a diary training issue
or there's uh, I don't know, like

781
00:38:50,707 --> 00:38:55,147
a re if it's a, if it's a patient
diary, mishap, there's a different

782
00:38:55,147 --> 00:38:56,617
reminder system to put in place.

783
00:38:56,617 --> 00:39:00,547
But we don't see, we don't see
clearly the problems to be solved

784
00:39:00,547 --> 00:39:02,107
if we keep papering them over.

785
00:39:02,527 --> 00:39:06,757
And I think that saying yes is bad, that's
a really important turnaround for lots

786
00:39:06,757 --> 00:39:11,221
of doctors because another thing that we
teach, which gets a lot of teeth sucking.

787
00:39:11,221 --> 00:39:13,831
I wonder if you've had the same
experiences talking about delegation.

788
00:39:14,107 --> 00:39:16,954
When we teach the prioritization
grid and like anything that's not

789
00:39:16,954 --> 00:39:20,844
important to below the line, but
you feel you need to do, eliminate,

790
00:39:20,844 --> 00:39:22,854
renegotiate, automate or delegate?

791
00:39:22,914 --> 00:39:26,364
And everyone's always got,
oh no, I can't delegate.

792
00:39:26,364 --> 00:39:28,404
I can't delegate nobody to delegate to.

793
00:39:28,644 --> 00:39:31,434
That's what they say, which is
just another version of, if I

794
00:39:31,434 --> 00:39:32,964
don't do it, no one will, I think.

795
00:39:33,286 --> 00:39:33,496
Yeah.

796
00:39:33,496 --> 00:39:36,428
And that, and the turnaround for
that one is that, not always, but

797
00:39:36,428 --> 00:39:40,928
in some situations, delegating is by
far the kind of thing for the other

798
00:39:40,928 --> 00:39:44,768
person because they get to have an
experience, they get to have a level

799
00:39:44,768 --> 00:39:47,498
of responsibility that they wouldn't
have otherwise, they get to step up to

800
00:39:47,498 --> 00:39:50,168
something, get exposure to something.

801
00:39:50,428 --> 00:39:53,848
So actually by holding everything
that like I have to do it

802
00:39:53,848 --> 00:39:56,158
mentality is not good for anyone.

803
00:39:56,158 --> 00:39:56,938
Yeah, exactly.

804
00:39:56,998 --> 00:39:59,848
And I've found that in my own
organization, sometimes I've just got

805
00:39:59,848 --> 00:40:03,328
on with something and done it just
because it, I want it done quickly

806
00:40:03,328 --> 00:40:05,998
or I just thought it was helping out
it as quickly if I did it and it's

807
00:40:05,998 --> 00:40:07,948
totally disempowered somebody else.

808
00:40:08,548 --> 00:40:11,728
Um, and it's shown them I don't trust
them or it's given them all, all

809
00:40:11,728 --> 00:40:13,618
these sorts of unspoken messages.

810
00:40:14,008 --> 00:40:18,388
Um, I think in healthcare, genuinely,
often there isn't anybody to delegate

811
00:40:18,388 --> 00:40:24,268
to, but I think we do use that as an
excuse, 'cause actually we could find

812
00:40:24,598 --> 00:40:26,158
people, we need to train them up.

813
00:40:26,548 --> 00:40:29,758
And then the problem is I don't
have the time, time to train them or

814
00:40:30,388 --> 00:40:34,138
the fear of the loss of control or
that, well, I can't really let them

815
00:40:34,138 --> 00:40:37,348
do that because what if they miss
this and then this dreadful thing.

816
00:40:37,348 --> 00:40:40,258
But again, that's where checks and
measures come in and processes come in.

817
00:40:40,414 --> 00:40:45,124
But you know, I think this, that's, that's
just what that whole question about if

818
00:40:45,184 --> 00:40:50,138
saying yes is bad question got me to
the actual, if I'm saying yes and not

819
00:40:50,318 --> 00:40:54,758
delegating or giving it to someone else,
quite often that can, that can be bad.

820
00:40:54,758 --> 00:40:57,938
And you know, my daughter had an
operation recently on her foot.

821
00:40:58,507 --> 00:41:02,257
I would've been really hacked off
if the surgeon who was operating

822
00:41:02,257 --> 00:41:06,667
on her foot had also had to get all
the operating instruments ready and

823
00:41:06,667 --> 00:41:09,397
sterilize the operating tables, 'cause
I'd be like, hang on a sec. No, no.

824
00:41:09,637 --> 00:41:11,827
Can you do the op, the actual operation?

825
00:41:12,084 --> 00:41:15,784
But a lot of the time in healthcare, the
doctors doctors, the nurses, the, the

826
00:41:15,784 --> 00:41:22,005
practice managers are doing a load of
administrative tasks that other people

827
00:41:22,005 --> 00:41:25,575
could be trained up to and could do with
just a bit of thought and attention.

828
00:41:25,784 --> 00:41:30,704
And it's completely distracting them from
their one main really important job, which

829
00:41:30,704 --> 00:41:34,544
for me was that that was being on call
that day triaging really sick patients.

830
00:41:34,888 --> 00:41:36,308
Yeah, so I got a bit
of a bee in my bonnet.

831
00:41:36,328 --> 00:41:39,178
You know, we always say, you know,
if you are paid really well and you

832
00:41:39,178 --> 00:41:43,378
are doing something that someone else
in your organization who's paid less

833
00:41:43,558 --> 00:41:45,358
could do, then you are wasting money.

834
00:41:45,523 --> 00:41:47,833
You are quite literally wasting
money, let alone not giving them the

835
00:41:47,833 --> 00:41:50,563
opportunities to grow and develop and
grow in their role and things like that.

836
00:41:50,563 --> 00:41:54,493
But we do it because we think we
are helping out and we think they

837
00:41:54,493 --> 00:41:57,213
would be disappointed if we left it
for them and, and, and, and, and.

838
00:41:57,853 --> 00:41:58,513
So, yes.

839
00:41:58,513 --> 00:42:00,889
So that, so saying yes is bad.

840
00:42:00,889 --> 00:42:01,369
Yes.

841
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:02,719
I think that could be very true.

842
00:42:02,881 --> 00:42:06,121
Any other example for that
specific immunization example?

843
00:42:06,121 --> 00:42:07,171
Any other reasons?

844
00:42:07,471 --> 00:42:10,111
If you think about everyone, the
practice manager, whoever, you know,

845
00:42:10,111 --> 00:42:14,470
whoever or the receptionist, whoever
booked her in, the twins, the mom, your

846
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:18,868
colleagues, the other patients, anyone
else for whom saying yes is bad, that

847
00:42:18,868 --> 00:42:20,308
would be true when you think about them?

848
00:42:20,665 --> 00:42:23,503
There's something about
respecting the receptionists

849
00:42:23,503 --> 00:42:24,973
and the diary booking system.

850
00:42:25,423 --> 00:42:28,003
You know, if you're just gonna
say yes to any patient that comes

851
00:42:28,003 --> 00:42:29,383
in at any point for anything.

852
00:42:29,903 --> 00:42:31,293
There's something about fairness.

853
00:42:31,476 --> 00:42:34,917
I felt particularly inclined
to say yes to that mum.

854
00:42:35,220 --> 00:42:40,027
What if it was a. A patient who had
another problem that wasn't quite

855
00:42:40,027 --> 00:42:42,547
emotive, but actually whose need was more?

856
00:42:42,547 --> 00:42:45,097
Well, that's not, I would say, no,
I'm not seeing that person now.

857
00:42:45,097 --> 00:42:46,223
That's not very fair.

858
00:42:46,506 --> 00:42:49,356
And also it could cause problems in
the future because you say yes to

859
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:52,976
that mum, then anytime it is just
convenient for her, she shows up and

860
00:42:52,976 --> 00:42:55,736
it's like, well, you did it last time,
so what's, what's changed this time?

861
00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:59,006
So you do create a real rod for your
own back if you don't have clear

862
00:42:59,006 --> 00:43:00,296
boundaries and that sort of thing.

863
00:43:00,566 --> 00:43:03,266
So I think we keep coming back to the
bigger picture, don't we, of like this

864
00:43:03,266 --> 00:43:06,926
system, and as you say, it's like the
system versus the patient in front of

865
00:43:06,926 --> 00:43:09,236
you, but it doesn't need to be either or.

866
00:43:09,236 --> 00:43:13,782
We can hold, both is important, but
we're, we are being truthful about

867
00:43:13,782 --> 00:43:18,372
our capacity for the sake of the whole
system, and we're being compassionate to

868
00:43:18,372 --> 00:43:19,702
the patient who's right in front of us.

869
00:43:20,397 --> 00:43:24,417
What are the things that have bothered
me as a patient most probably have

870
00:43:24,417 --> 00:43:30,087
been like rudeness or lack of respect
or lack of, you know, the way people

871
00:43:30,087 --> 00:43:34,728
have maybe interacted, not so much
the, actually you have to wait this

872
00:43:34,728 --> 00:43:36,918
much time to have your appointment.

873
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:42,209
It's those human interactions which
can leave people feeling, yeah, not

874
00:43:42,209 --> 00:43:45,359
seen, not respected, not cared for.

875
00:43:45,579 --> 00:43:46,389
And that's really true.

876
00:43:46,389 --> 00:43:48,999
And actually what this has made me think
of, Corrina, I hadn't really thought

877
00:43:48,999 --> 00:43:53,436
of much before, is I thought about the
whole long term benefit of saying no.

878
00:43:53,841 --> 00:43:56,571
and we often talk about, you know,
the power language mantras, the

879
00:43:56,571 --> 00:44:00,621
power mantras of I'm choosing to
say no, so that, you know, I can be

880
00:44:00,621 --> 00:44:03,981
on time for the rest of my patients
and triage the urgent ones better.

881
00:44:04,281 --> 00:44:06,051
Even if the mum is upset.

882
00:44:06,321 --> 00:44:09,023
But actually, I haven't ever
really thought about the benefits

883
00:44:09,023 --> 00:44:10,283
of saying no in the short term.

884
00:44:10,611 --> 00:44:11,791
And what are now seeing?

885
00:44:12,036 --> 00:44:13,626
Well I'm now seeing that you are right.

886
00:44:13,896 --> 00:44:17,766
If you don't say no, then you
are doing it in a muddled way.

887
00:44:17,766 --> 00:44:21,046
You are, you know, even the patient
in front of you might not be

888
00:44:21,046 --> 00:44:24,876
benefiting so much from this sort of
knackered doctor just fitting them

889
00:44:24,876 --> 00:44:27,546
in on a WHI 'cause they feel guilty.

890
00:44:28,176 --> 00:44:33,636
So even short term, it's not that
great for the patient in front of me.

891
00:44:33,636 --> 00:44:38,886
In fact, the only reason I'm saying yes is
for my own self-soothing of my amygdala.

892
00:44:39,367 --> 00:44:43,267
And I'm just wondering though, how this
works when it's not the patient you

893
00:44:43,267 --> 00:44:45,157
are letting down, it's your colleagues.

894
00:44:45,187 --> 00:44:46,747
Because that seems even harder.

895
00:44:47,227 --> 00:44:51,903
Like if you had, you know, 20 test
results to file and you have to

896
00:44:51,903 --> 00:44:53,433
be somewhere, you have to leave.

897
00:44:53,433 --> 00:44:56,523
'cause you've got, I know parents' evening
to get to and there's these test results

898
00:44:56,523 --> 00:45:01,368
and literally someone else does have
to do it, and you feel dreadful about

899
00:45:01,398 --> 00:45:05,838
dumping on other people, but they need
filing and it's a question of either I

900
00:45:05,838 --> 00:45:10,218
send you that or I go to parents evening,
or I set really late tonight, but by then

901
00:45:10,548 --> 00:45:13,908
I've sort of missed the on-call labs or
I, I've missed being able to admit that

902
00:45:13,908 --> 00:45:15,648
patient if I haven't checked the results.

903
00:45:15,648 --> 00:45:20,238
You know, it's, it's, it's the,
the dumping tasks on colleagues

904
00:45:20,238 --> 00:45:23,358
that seems to be the cardinal
sin and people absolutely fear.

905
00:45:23,358 --> 00:45:24,967
So how would we deal with that one?

906
00:45:25,447 --> 00:45:28,237
My guess, I mean, you the,
please push back immediately

907
00:45:28,237 --> 00:45:29,467
on this if this is not true.

908
00:45:29,527 --> 00:45:33,757
Um, but my guess is in that kind of
scenario, there's a give and a take

909
00:45:33,757 --> 00:45:36,637
where sometimes people are gonna
have a harder stop at this time.

910
00:45:36,637 --> 00:45:38,767
Other people are gonna have
a harder stop at this time.

911
00:45:39,247 --> 00:45:44,645
And again, the system kind of organizes
itself where it doesn't always fall to

912
00:45:44,645 --> 00:45:49,600
one person unless that person is kind
of unconsciously over-functioning.

913
00:45:49,763 --> 00:45:51,023
And that, that's interesting.

914
00:45:51,083 --> 00:45:52,133
You are absolutely right.

915
00:45:52,163 --> 00:45:54,353
'cause actually no one would mind
someone poking their head and

916
00:45:54,353 --> 00:45:56,063
going, I caught parents evening.

917
00:45:56,063 --> 00:45:56,963
Would you mind?

918
00:45:57,485 --> 00:46:01,754
I would mind if one of my colleagues
just left it and didn't ask me.

919
00:46:02,114 --> 00:46:02,834
So they weren't seen.

920
00:46:03,134 --> 00:46:05,804
That's less likely to happen and
someone just races through it really,

921
00:46:05,804 --> 00:46:09,314
really quickly, doesn't feel they
can ask and make loads of mistakes or

922
00:46:09,314 --> 00:46:10,904
whatever, or causes extra problems.

923
00:46:10,904 --> 00:46:12,824
I'd have been like, why didn't
you just ask me to do it?

924
00:46:13,383 --> 00:46:17,373
And I think what we then confuse
is, 'cause nobody minds being

925
00:46:17,373 --> 00:46:18,813
asked wants to do something.

926
00:46:19,173 --> 00:46:20,733
Well, we like helping our colleagues out.

927
00:46:21,063 --> 00:46:23,733
It's when it's assumed you're
gonna do it all the time.

928
00:46:24,046 --> 00:46:26,986
And so when the system is chronically
over capacity, so it's like, well, if

929
00:46:26,986 --> 00:46:30,496
I say no, I'll literally be saying no
every single day that I go to work.

930
00:46:30,916 --> 00:46:34,966
But then that is probably a completely
different kettle official together.

931
00:46:35,536 --> 00:46:38,866
You are not saying, well, if
I say no, who's gonna do it,

932
00:46:38,896 --> 00:46:39,856
and no one's gonna do it.

933
00:46:39,856 --> 00:46:43,306
You know, in this acute circumstance,
it's actually a chronic, there's all this

934
00:46:43,306 --> 00:46:48,120
work, there's this much work, there's
this many people, you can't fit that much

935
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,130
time into that much space or, or whatever.

936
00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:53,160
It's like trying to squash a balloon
into a box that, that doesn't fit.

937
00:46:53,790 --> 00:46:54,780
And then absolutely.

938
00:46:54,780 --> 00:46:57,985
It, it's probably a, a
different question altogether.

939
00:46:58,418 --> 00:47:02,493
Where have we got to Corrina if we
were to summarize our discussions?

940
00:47:02,553 --> 00:47:05,223
Well, what have you noticed in everything
that I've been saying, what do you

941
00:47:05,223 --> 00:47:07,586
think the real core of the issue is?

942
00:47:07,799 --> 00:47:12,044
I think it is questioning our
assumptions, which may be shared

943
00:47:12,044 --> 00:47:13,634
assumptions across our profession.

944
00:47:13,634 --> 00:47:18,494
So they feel very much just like facts,
almost like religion facts, you know,

945
00:47:18,494 --> 00:47:20,564
like you just, thou shalt not kill.

946
00:47:20,594 --> 00:47:25,094
Like thou shalt not say no, thou
shalt not dump stuff on colleagues.

947
00:47:25,094 --> 00:47:27,672
Like we need to question
assumptions always.

948
00:47:27,702 --> 00:47:31,422
Then we may question things and come
to believe the thoughts, but we have

949
00:47:31,422 --> 00:47:35,532
at least questioned them and so we're
consciously believing the thoughts, then.

950
00:47:36,545 --> 00:47:39,095
We need to have that level
of honesty with ourselves.

951
00:47:39,095 --> 00:47:44,230
We need to not make ourselves
gods and assume that everything's

952
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:45,760
gonna fall apart without us.

953
00:47:46,330 --> 00:47:52,180
Because actually if we overextend, then
we will fall apart ourselves and then

954
00:47:52,780 --> 00:47:55,810
we're in the same situation that we
were kind of fearing in the first place.

955
00:47:56,303 --> 00:48:01,825
So, not doing things we fear is gonna
lead to bad outcomes, but doing things

956
00:48:01,825 --> 00:48:05,855
can lead to bad outcomes and not
doing them can lead to good outcomes.

957
00:48:06,035 --> 00:48:10,615
So it all like, can go, can flip
from what we originally thought.

958
00:48:10,752 --> 00:48:14,502
And then I think tolerating
discomfort just across the board.

959
00:48:14,502 --> 00:48:18,822
This is kind of my big, like my own
personal journey and just across the

960
00:48:18,822 --> 00:48:24,622
board, how much discomfort can we
tolerate, can we sit in, can we stay in?

961
00:48:24,622 --> 00:48:29,272
Like, ooh, it feels like being in a fire
when that person's not happy with me or

962
00:48:29,272 --> 00:48:35,002
that patient's distraught or, or like
this feeling of guilt I feel like is

963
00:48:35,002 --> 00:48:38,452
gonna actually consume my entire body.

964
00:48:39,082 --> 00:48:44,577
I actually can I just literally
count, like, can I count to 10 and

965
00:48:44,577 --> 00:48:49,789
see that I haven't burst into flames
from feeling guilty or you know, from

966
00:48:49,789 --> 00:48:53,149
whatever I've just done or from wherever
someone else is feeling towards me.

967
00:48:53,610 --> 00:48:54,180
I love that.

968
00:48:54,180 --> 00:48:57,494
And I think where it's landed
for me is we just need to stop

969
00:48:57,494 --> 00:49:00,319
attaching such meaning to yes or no.

970
00:49:00,775 --> 00:49:04,784
And like, it makes us a, a certain
kind of person, like good people.

971
00:49:05,174 --> 00:49:06,704
Again, you could finish that sentence.

972
00:49:06,734 --> 00:49:10,454
Good people say, yes, good
people or good doctors or good

973
00:49:10,454 --> 00:49:13,154
nurses don't do this or do this.

974
00:49:13,154 --> 00:49:16,341
And we have this kind of,
um, a credo, a credo, I think

975
00:49:16,341 --> 00:49:16,971
is the word i'm looking for.

976
00:49:17,343 --> 00:49:20,367
Yeah, when actually it's just like,
it's like, if I could not believe

977
00:49:20,367 --> 00:49:21,387
that thought, I like that question.

978
00:49:21,387 --> 00:49:25,767
If I could no longer believe that that
saying no was maybe a selfish person, what

979
00:49:25,767 --> 00:49:26,877
would I be doing and where would I be?

980
00:49:26,877 --> 00:49:28,467
I think that's a nice way to look at it.

981
00:49:28,497 --> 00:49:32,559
And I think this tolerating of
discomfort is, is something maybe

982
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:33,729
I'll get you back to talk about.

983
00:49:33,729 --> 00:49:35,799
And I think that's one of the
things you're gonna talk to us

984
00:49:35,799 --> 00:49:40,303
about, about FrogFest, how to, how
to set impeccable boundaries and

985
00:49:40,303 --> 00:49:41,923
deal with everyone else not liking.

986
00:49:42,073 --> 00:49:42,103
Oh,

987
00:49:42,530 --> 00:49:43,010
Yeah.

988
00:49:43,340 --> 00:49:45,230
Being out of favor with other people.

989
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:50,420
Like, oh, even just saying the words,
I can feel it in my body, like my

990
00:49:50,420 --> 00:49:55,040
solar plexus goes, oh, and I'm sure
people listening or watching are

991
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,380
just like, no, that's not tolerable.

992
00:49:57,650 --> 00:50:02,290
And so if something feels intolerable,
we take all kinds of not great

993
00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:05,080
actions to try and avoid that feeling.

994
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:06,010
That's intolerable.

995
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:08,680
Yeah, And we are just kidding
ourselves that we can actually

996
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,063
avoid, not people pleasing, that we
can please everybody all the time.

997
00:50:12,063 --> 00:50:13,653
It's a complete myth.

998
00:50:14,493 --> 00:50:19,143
Even people that are incredibly nice and
never do anything to upset anything and

999
00:50:19,143 --> 00:50:23,103
bend everyone else's wills will they end
up not pleasing somebody at some point.

1000
00:50:23,268 --> 00:50:27,038
Yes, Completely inevitable that
someone's gonna not be happy with us.

1001
00:50:27,233 --> 00:50:28,553
well that's a depressing way to end it.

1002
00:50:30,768 --> 00:50:37,613
But, but because we are two type
sevens on the Enneagram, we will always

1003
00:50:37,613 --> 00:50:39,263
want to end with a silver lining.

1004
00:50:39,371 --> 00:50:39,731
Go on then.

1005
00:50:39,731 --> 00:50:40,446
What's your silver lining?

1006
00:50:40,766 --> 00:50:45,896
that there is a part of us that is beyond
all of this, a part of us that sits behind

1007
00:50:46,346 --> 00:50:52,404
and beyond that need for approval, that
need for security, control, all of that,

1008
00:50:52,404 --> 00:50:54,294
that is a part of us that is beyond that.

1009
00:50:54,294 --> 00:50:59,042
And if we can more and more live into
that part of us and come from that part

1010
00:50:59,042 --> 00:51:03,830
of us, then we are just so much wiser and
we make such wiser decisions for everyone.

1011
00:51:03,860 --> 00:51:05,990
The system as a whole, the
patients in front of us, our

1012
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:07,190
colleagues, and ourselves.

1013
00:51:07,577 --> 00:51:07,757
Yeah.

1014
00:51:07,757 --> 00:51:08,117
I love that.

1015
00:51:08,117 --> 00:51:11,837
I know Tara Brack talks about her sort
of rain therapy, self-compassion, and

1016
00:51:11,837 --> 00:51:15,767
I guess that that wise part of you,
when you notice this intolerable,

1017
00:51:16,757 --> 00:51:17,927
ugh, I've upset them, whatever.

1018
00:51:18,107 --> 00:51:21,137
You just sit there and you go, of course
you're feeling like that, Lou, you just

1019
00:51:21,137 --> 00:51:22,787
have to put up with or do or whatever.

1020
00:51:23,387 --> 00:51:25,577
Yeah, anyone will be
feeling like that right now.

1021
00:51:25,991 --> 00:51:26,831
Doesn't mean it's wrong.

1022
00:51:27,402 --> 00:51:30,582
So yeah, there's that lovely quote from
Rumi and I'll just finish with that.

1023
00:51:30,912 --> 00:51:34,752
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and right doing, there is a

1024
00:51:34,752 --> 00:51:36,432
field, I'll meet you there.

1025
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:37,760
Thanks Corrina.

1026
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:40,570
If anyone wants to get in touch
with you, how can they do that?

1027
00:51:40,658 --> 00:51:44,478
Yeah, so they can go to my
website, corrinagordonbarnes.com.

1028
00:51:44,498 --> 00:51:50,258
Corina spelled C-O-R-R-I-N-A,
Gordon, G-O-R-D-O-N, Barnes,

1029
00:51:50,418 --> 00:51:55,388
B-A-R-N-E-S .com and just drop me a
line in the contact section there.

1030
00:51:55,568 --> 00:51:57,158
You can also connect with me on LinkedIn,

1031
00:51:57,283 --> 00:51:57,733
That's wonderful.

1032
00:51:57,913 --> 00:52:01,573
And uh, come and see, um, Corrina
talking and pick her brains

1033
00:52:01,573 --> 00:52:03,073
at our next FrogFest Virtual.

1034
00:52:03,073 --> 00:52:04,603
All the links and details
will be in the show notes.

1035
00:52:04,603 --> 00:52:05,863
So Corrina, thank you so much.

1036
00:52:05,863 --> 00:52:08,953
I've really enjoyed our chat as
ever and we'll chat again soon.

1037
00:52:11,066 --> 00:52:11,996
Thanks for listening.

1038
00:52:12,096 --> 00:52:16,556
Don't forget, you can get extra bonus
episodes and audio courses along with

1039
00:52:16,646 --> 00:52:21,476
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1040
00:52:21,556 --> 00:52:26,016
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1041
00:52:26,016 --> 00:52:28,986
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1042
00:52:29,359 --> 00:52:32,879
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